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Edward Poll

Hello everyone! A question for everyone still active on 1983: Doomsday.

Regarding the situation of Edward Poll and his statement made at the OBN meeting. What do we think should happen? I wanted to write something but I want to know what the whole community thinks:

Edward Poll referred to himself in his speech as the "Imperator who will lead the way to a future reunified England", and the media claims it was an accident, that he was trying to say "leader" (which would be Dux) by using a sophisticated Latin word which supposedly came out wrong; while conspiracy theorists believe he was, in reality, subtly proclaiming himself "Emperor of the English".

Do you think he will actually give himself that title instead of it being a mere slip of the tongue? Would he maybe crown himself like Charlemagne? Would he have the support of the common people across the English survivor states with their own independent governments both monarchical and republican? Would he attempt to challenge King Andrew's legitimacy to the throne of England, and therefore provoke a massive dispute? Would Edward Poll become the next strongman? And most importantly... '''Could he eventually reunify England?

Please leave your thoughts! Let's discuss the future of England in 1983: Doomsday!

Nay Mate Woody (talk) 14:41, February 26, 2020 (UTC)


Love it! But I don't think he should be an actual monarch. Here's what I propose, you can all tell me what you think:

For his peacekeeping triumphs not only heading the Organization of British nations but also personally leading its army into battle suffocating insurrections like the one in Leicestershire republic, the committee grants him the honorary title of Imperator anglorum (as a nod to Poll's "slip of the tongue" as you said). Poll will have himself crowned Emperor of the Angles in a low budget coronation in an old and dilapidated sports hall using a cheap knock-off of St Edwards crown. HOWEVER, he will insist that he is not a monarch or a sovereign, he is only the president of the OBN (a peacekeeping organization, not a state or entity). Its like Charlemagne-ish, as you said. So far it's only an honorific title.

However. After a couple of months, here's where things start to get weird. Poll would actually start to take it seriously, and would even send King Andrew a formal letter or telegram telling him (to put it informally, with balls of steel) that his rule over the English people is illegitimate because of the Commonwealth’s lack of presence for many decades. “You may be the legitimate sovereign of the British Union and head of the Commonwealth, but you are not the rightful sovereign of England”. This would create an enormous divide among the entire British population worldwide between those who supported the head of the House of Windsor and son of the Queen and those in Great Britain who supported an English Emperor chosen by the people of their homeland. What do you think?

FiteOwl (talk) 12:26, March 4, 2020 (UTC)



Fantastic!!! I'm all for it. When I first read it I googled him and Poll isnt a noble or a royal in any way at all. However, reading what is written about him in this timeline, he is:

  1. The head of an organization which has done a fantastic job of uniting and maintaining the friendship between the successor states.
  2. An excellent military leader (having personally lead battles himself both defending the member states of the OBN and suffocating separatist movements) and a super charismatic politician.
  3. A man who has the support of the people. The common people of (whats left of) England.

The English people have chosen him as their Charlemagne. Their honorary "emperor". Strength to Edward Poll, Emperor of the Angles!!!

Zukushaman (talk) 19:10, March 5, 2020 (UTC)


I have just been discussing this topic with SigmaHero045 and we have both agreed that it would absolutely lead to a civil war in Old Britain, because Cleveland, for example, is ruled by Zara Tindall who is, in essence, a Windsor and a close relative of King Andrew. She would 100% side with her uncle Andrew. In the event of a civil war, may I also point out that the Windsors would be victorious in every way because of the popular support and the longing for a UNITED Kingdom again like the good old days. The United Kingdom of England and South Africa.

If this civil war happens, this is how I believe the factions would be:

Windsors Pro-independence successor states Pollists

New Britain Flag 3 New Britain

Cleveland flag Cleveland

Northumberland flag Northumberland

New scotland flag Southern Scotland

83DD-DuchyLancasterFlag3 Duchy of Lancaster





Democratic Republic of Lindsey

Newolland flag 2011 Newolland

Woodbridgeflag3 Woodbridge

Isle of Wight Council Flag Southern England

158px-Derbyshire flag svg Matlock

83orgbritnatflagprop OBN Supreme Council

Financial support:

Flag of Norfolk Norfolk

Financial support:

FlagOfEssex Essex

Do you all agree?

MrWoodward (talk) 19:32, March 8, 2020 (UTC)


We did agree that Poll wouldn't want to be an actual monarch though. His ideal plan is this: the successor states of Old Britain would be like the Holy Roman Empire: a decentralized union of independent territories with their own governments and economies who would be members of an alliance (the OBN) under the rule of the Imperator Anglorum: Poll. Whether it is an elected position or a hereditary one, you decide what it is.

Also, in this possible civil war. Wouldn't Woodbridge be supporting Poll? From what I gathered from the OBN page, Edward Poll's leadership shared a lot of its views with the government of Woodbridge, and under him the OBN did nearly everything that Woodbridge proposed. If I were in that situation and if I were the Prime Minister of Woodbridge I would be super happy! I'd absolutely support the Pollist faction at least financially.

FiteOwl (talk) 21:47, March 8, 2020 (UTC)


I actually said Woodbridge would be supporting Poll. I'm the actual one behind the idea of this civil war (but credit for him making a good looking template illustrating it and approving the idea and pitching it here because I didn't have time yesterday). Following our disscussions, he made this thing with quite a few changes from my pitch (there's a non officialy canon country in there when I just asked him what Norfolk actually was because of confusion). Here, I'll post all my arguments regarding this, spoiler alert: Having Poll as a popularly beloved choosed monarch for England is bogus in terms of realism (saying otherwise is rejecting a lot of cultural and social context into the mix).

"Edward Polls would NOT be even a somewhat popularly approved as a monarch. Simply because of a deep cultural attachment to nobility and aristocracy in the English culture (just look at the House of Lords) and I don't think Polls have noble heritage. It would be more HIS action rather than a divise but somewhat popular decision. Many dioceses still recognize Andrew as their leader (Anglican church). In tradition, the royal is the head of state because of being the head to the church, A civilian couldn't fill that role with no widespread support outside of a very few ultranationalists. There's a reason why the post-DD states are mostly [correction: many of them are] monarchies by actual nobility. After a conflict like the Leicester war, they want comfort, they want to get closer to the pre-DD England. Long history of England before DD proves the affection and importance the monarchs [families] have there. Imagine how fueled the popular disscussion in New Britain would be, very nationalistic (the good non-chauvinist kind) ideas of "going back to the old country" would surge in approval [in face of a betrayal of english codes]. The fact that they left Old Britain kinda becomes a regret in public conscience (not out of hate towards Africans or South Africa but of having lost something fondamental to who they are) and in politicians circles. It's a trigger moment (kinda like the brexit moment in our timeline ;) ) that complety changes public perspective. Look at King Andrew's visits in the early 2010s in Old Britain: He's still beloved by many MANY people and actually inconsciously shows an attachment for the monarch towards the old country. Cleveland is lead by a relative of Andrew, how would she react to such a thing in plus of the popular hate? Would she invite Andrew to annex Cleveland in resistance to such takeover of power? To reunite England and New Britain? A civil war WOULD broke out (see the importance of cultural and sociological factors in history?) and by popular support and better military, the Windsors WOULD win. It just makes more sense and would be a torrific way of ending the 2010s political turmoil in the region. New Britain rebecoming the United Kingdom...but the United Kingdom of England and South Africa (as an equal constituent country)."

"people love Poll as a new prime minister of some sort, a return to normalcy in terms of civilian power. But for him to pervert the codes of the royalty sacred to english culture will NOT go well for him. It's one thing to be the next de facto prime minister of England, it's another thing to pretend to be its monarch without royal blood who'll be the head of the influencial anglican church that mostly recognize Andrew as the king. This would be considered an attack in times of instability to the english identity following a full decade of war, thing that Andrew and his relatives on the old Britain would definitely be attached to (or will be attached again under pressures from fired up nationalism). The civilian populace of Old Britain and New Britain clearly realize right now the momentum to reunite the kingdom as it used to be before DD that's at their doorstep (and how important tradition is important in restoring the English national culture and attachment). Also, Cleveland and Northumbria would definitely be on the Windsors side because of their monarchs being relatives to Andrew who are also attacked in their legitimacy by Poll's power fever and who whould benefit by being under an Andrew-led kingdom.

It would play out like this I think : Woodbridge, Newolland (because of a non noble monarch), southern England (popular local anti-monarchy sentiments) and Matlock (because of their bad humans right records, almost fascist governemnt and crooks in charge that would lose power and governement under a democratic human rights respectful England) vs New Britain, Cleveland, Northumbria, Southern Scotland (dependency upon Northumbria and popular love for the southern neighbour), Lancaster (because of the legacy of the Lord-Lieutenant), Westmorland (protectorate of Lancaster) and Lindsey (not for that long because they re litteraly surrendered by Newolland, you see how a conflict would end between the two). Essex would just stay neutral because of their isolationist attitude. The New London part of the Celtic Alliance would discretly with partisans of the Windsors inside the union, contrary to the neutral stance of the Union itself, financially support the Windsors side. I can't really say much about Norfolk and West Suffolk because I can't really grasp who they are. Also, is the Ipswich Incident still going on? If so, that would be a divise factor against the pollists. Both sides would try to win popular favor in the lands that are under no one's control in Britain since Doomsday (the big light beige section between the celtics and the other british nations). These stateless communities would see in Andrew a saviour coming back with the hope of having things as they used to be before 1984 (how could the Pollists convince people that weren't under the OBN control that this random dude no one there heard from can be a safe monarch when the windsor king is there?). A non-heavily opposed Edward Poll is unrealistic, the post-doomsday world is no excuse to do things that makes no sense (aka 1989 War timeline)."

There are my arguments and the original, realistic pitch for the civil war that mirrors the instability of Brexit in our TL. Also there's a term for loosely centralized unified state: a confederation. The technology and communications status in 2020 does however permit a more unified centralized state right now. Just saying.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:35, March 8, 2020 (UTC)


First, we must be clear about the context leading to such a war (because we must remember: this is a very VERY major turn of events in the course of England's history here). This is the first large-scale war in a long time and thus, one where every details is thrillingly interesting and important. And this is where a first problem comes in: the status of Norfolk. In such a large-scale where every single line of detail in the context that leads to it is important, having Norfolk non canon would mean that after creating the whole war thing in all captivating way with twists and small realistic details we'd have to rewrite it all over again to include Norfolk role in influencing what came after it (even if it's minimal, the butterfly effect). I think Norfolk must be 1) canon 2) complete with its professionaly made and believable different history, culture and place in the region (altough brief because the TBA seems, according to its very small history, to have annexed it very early on). And for that we need to do the same process that was used in the worldbuilding of the other countries in Great Britain: taking the proper time and attention to realism and detail in accordance with the creator of the country's article will and creating as a result a captivating part of the world for readers. Because every single detail, every line of defense can come back later as an advantage or disadvantage in such a war (also the social impact all this would have). I don't think it will be long though (but proper authorizations must be done and it must not create contradictions with other articles, no matter obscure).

Now as for the conflict itself. I'll fix the template for it to show my vision so see what you think. The OBN is supported by Newolland, Woodbridge and Southern England because of either anti-Windsors misunderstandings that are prevalant in those parts of ex-England or the will of the monarchy of Newolland to support a unification where it could keep its privileges in a legitimization of their power (where one does not need aristocratic lineage to be a aristocrat, aristocrat that can even be a pretendant to the whole throne under such a system). In other words, to be able to have concessions of power in a England unified under Poll that would fit with their worldview. Matlock is a third side who's kinda obligated to help the pollists versus the biggest threat of the Windsow unionists to their fascist crual rule that doesn't respect human dignity, it's still a third side however. Essex governement is neutral officially because it just want to be its own thing and be left alone outside of the whole unifying process. That doesn't mean there's private individual and under-the-rug military and especially financial support from private individuals there or in the Celtic Union or anywhere else.

Windsors Pollists Rogue states Neutral

New Britain Flag 3 New Britain

Cleveland flag Cleveland

Northumberland flag Northumberland

New scotland flag Southern Scotland

83DD-DuchyLancasterFlag3 Duchy of Lancaster





Democratic Republic of Lindsey

Flag of South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands

83orgbritnatflagprop OBN Supreme Council

Newolland flag 2011 Newolland

Woodbridgeflag3 Woodbridge

Isle of Wight Council Flag Southern England

158px-Derbyshire flag svg Matlock

Various small raiders groups

Flag BerthelierInterceltic Celtic Alliance (officially, unaware of New London's actions)

FlagOfEssex Essex (officially)

800px-Flag of Europe.svg ADC

Financial support:

Flag BerthelierInterceltic Celtic Alliance pro-Windsor New London citizens and local government (secretly)

Financial support:

FlagOfEssex Essex (secretly)

And for the flag of such a unified England, southern Scotland and South Africa under King Andrew, I've got two suggestions even if I preffer personally the first one. Wich one is the best:


Great Britain Reunited flag proposal 2

or

Great Britain Reunited flag proposal 1

Pleased to hear your arguments.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:32, March 24, 2020 (UTC)




Hello! I really like where this is all heading. So just to clear it up: the end goal for the Pollists is to have Edward Poll as Emperor of the English people but still respecting the other monarchies of the successor states, right? Holy roman empire vibes here. Obviously they will lose this war but still its a fun idea.

On the subject of territorial subdivision after the end of the British civil war, will the former successor states become "shires"/counties like they used to be? (Leicestershire being the example in my head right now because of the turbulent episode it has recently experienced and the short-lived communist republic it was under)? Will they be provinces (like for example the Province of Newolland, the Province of Cleveland), this way somewhat respecting their previous autonomy? 

And on the subject of the flags, I really really like the second flag. Its cool it respects the African tribes of South Africa incorporating that gold on the St Andrew's Cross.

Finally the UK can unite again, its time.

Zukushaman (talk) 12:12, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Here's how the war should start: the football stadium coronation. I think that's a great idea by FiteOwl which is controversial enough to grab the Windsors attention and spark outcry everywhere. Cleveland and Northumberland will tell New Britain about it, Andrew I will answer with basically "Yes let's sort this out ASAP this is madness. Assemble the vehicles. We're heading back to Old Britain we're taking it back". That's when everything kicks off. Opinions? Hong Xiuquan (talk) 14:14, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. I'm for it. It's crazy enough to start a war, and we're looking for a cause so that could be a factor. MrWoodward (talk) 16:53, March 30, 2020 (UTC)


Suffolk1

West Suffolk and Babergh

West Norfolk and West Suffolk were territories that were controlled by the TBA but were succesfully regained by Woodbridge and Newolland (West Norfolk) and Woodbridge and Essex (West Suffolk). To begin with the areas were jointly run by the successful nations but over time they were divided vetween them. West Suffolk consisted of the OTL districts of West Suffolk and Barbergh. Babergh is now part of Essex and West Suffolk belongs to Woodbridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Suffolk_(district)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babergh

--Verence71 (talk) 17:27, March 31, 2020 (UTC)


Ok the Norfolk page definitely needs to be corrected then. I agree with the idea of having the war start with the football stadium coronation, that will be the last straw that starts the war, that brings King Andrew over from New Britain back to the isle. MrWoodward (talk) 16:49, April 3, 2020 (UTC)


I've made a start on that

Verence71 (talk) 17:16, April 3, 2020 (UTC)


Ok I see good progress here. Now in what would consist this "stadium coronation"? Why would it take place here? What led to Poll and his supporters wanting deciding to it exactly this way? Perhaps they thought about it because of showing to the public and in television channels a sense of scale and prestige and popular support in order to seduce the public? Show them how he can gather people around him (and flattering his ego about having a large crow to love him), show them the incredible emotions of being part of large unified crowd not seen since the 26th of september 1983 (first time for many) that would overwhelm them in wanting more of that (therefore wanting more of HIM) of having the sensation of him being capable of doing things greater and more ambitious than anything before. Also, since being in a stadium, a certain populist entertainment feel to them. Except.....the galvanisation of the crowd...wouldn't exactly go the way they thought it would go. In a crucial miscalculation proper to history with a capital H, this is how I imagine it would go (warning, it is very long):

Everything started on the 17th of december 2019 at Woodbridge in a meeting between premier Christopher Mole and Edward Poll. The region of England just came back from a terrific war against the Republic of Leicester in October and Newolland assisted by the OBN (if I'm correct) and military forces from all England are still stationned there, helping rebuilding the place and stopping local protests. Mole said to Poll that the situation made him realize something and that he invited Poll to discuss the future of England. Mole said that he feared instability and insurrection that Britain knew for the past decade would continue endlessly to happen unless, he said, the whole England is reunited under one banner again. That's something that Poll would say he actually is agreeing with before explaining that he thought about the idea for a long time and came to the conclusion that it would be the inevitable next step and a logical idea that would have widespread support among the english people (especially in the older generations). That's where Mole would interrupt him, saying that's where he partially disagrees with him. He says that a united republican England would have the same problems as the current mosaic of countries: a lack of centralized popular vision that would uplift the english people into healing the scars of Doomsday, uplift the people into feeling again a patriotic proudness in their country that would let them regain and surpass the quality of life and general ambition that was present before the fateful 1983 day. Into feeling...complete inside and confident in the future. Poll, confused and intrigued, would ask what did he thought was missing in his idea? He replied: a monarch, an english monarch that would restore the aristocracy integral cultural part in England. After Poll asked in shock if he suggested to let the Windsors restore the integral pre-DD english monarchy knowing the popular opposition in the southern England, Mole responded that he wanted HIM to be monarch. He laughed, thinking it was a joke. However, as he realized Mole was serious about this, things got heated up. After a heated argument and objection from Poll, Mole reportedly (according to local legend after one maid testified later after the war about how all this mess started) started convinced him with a metaphor about his coffee he was about to drink: he said that a republican England would be like his current black coffee, hot and crude, lost in violence without a unifying vision, and (after putting some milk into his coffee) would say a monarch-led England would be coffee with fresh milk, pacified, unified, civilised, clarified enough to see a future, delicious enough to drink. "And especially not spoiled with age like the Windsors are", he add as he drank it. Still unconvinced, he politely left the meeting as the idea continued however to be in his mind. This event is known by later historians, named after popular naming of the event, as the december coffee meeting.

After a month of lobbying from Mole to make Poll accept the role of king of England and Scotland by getting secret endorsments from politicians across the south-east half of England (including a private endorsement by the royals of Newolland who foresee that the reunification of England is inevitable and that one led by the Windsors would deligitimize their power when one by Poll could be benefitial for them, giving them even the possibility of higher power and even possibility to be king/queen of the entire England), Poll finally gives in to their arguments and now believe he's the right man to be king: political experience, popular love across all countries of England for his leading role in the OBN and against the TBA/Sons de Montford that brought stability and security to the region, (perceived) popular demand for a renewed and less traditional monarchy where non noble could be monarchs, as well as him being anglican (since being king of England is being king of the church). And, doing a press conference in a OBN event, he said his famous quote that ended the event, with the goal of accustoming the public over the idea of him a monarch without directly affirming it, this way : "We, british nations, are the guides to a reunified England and I'll be the Imperātor anglōrum who will lead the way". This is when things get really sour, preluding the war to come.

With all the buzz in the medias about this quote possibly being a hint about his intentions to become monarch, conflict starts occuring at the OBN: many criticise Poll on how they weren't consulted for such a blunt, radical and out-of-nowhere decision (the buildup having been carefully made by Pollists so they didn't reach potential non-Pollists ears). Debate and infighting ensues as Poll denies wanting to be emperor (promises of high glorified power having corrupted his honesty). The word spread like wildfire in all of the British Isles population and in rare newspapers that have the means to talk about international issues around the world, making it a worlwide heated debate. By the day after the speech, the news reaches New Britain's population and reignite there the debate about the restauration of the monarchy. Many (as I said) now start to feel that they left something behind on who they are by leaving Old Britain decades ago.

Public figures in New and Old Britain starts announcing their views on the subject. King Andrew sure received before the speech a telegram of Poll stating his intentions but despite his worries about how Old Britain situation could go dire in the near future and not being sure on how to tackle this as he can't believe this, his inner circle convince him to keep it secret from the government and population in order to avoid sending oil into the fire that could still be countained. Public figures and governments in Old Britain starts taking positions on the issue, many in Newolland, Southern England and Woodbridge make annoucements stating they'd support Edward Poll as king if he reunified England, accompanied by anti-Windsor propaganda labelling them as traitors and cowards that gave up their country unlike Poll who'll make Britain turn the page on the depressive effects of DD. On the contrary, Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster have quite the opposite opinion, calling on Poll to cease his power game for a power he was never prepared for nor have the heritage to obtain, for the greater good of England. Many discussions occur in the Windsor royal family as this directly concern them: should they reunify England under their family once more? King Andrew hesitate to answer calls to war of reunification as such act of attack would be against his and his country's values of democratic dignity and anti-warmongering stance. He also quite deeply regret the wars of expensions in South Africa of the 2000s on the values and image of New Britain with all the victims it made, he doesn't want to betray his ideals another time. Northumbria and Cleveland united royal family agreed to let go of their projects to form the independant kingdom of Albion and to back Andrew if he decided to reunifiy England under his banner, viewing this as the better choice for the citizens of Britain they love to let their personal interests out of the question for the greater good of England. On the third day after the speech, things can't go back, Poll is thirsty for power and admiration and nobility and the ends will justify the means from now on for him.

On a emergency council session in the OBN, he steps up amoung the criticism from what will become Windsorists nations in the war and officialy declares that he will, in fact, be the king of England, explaining it is a logical choice for a logical step forward and criticising (albeit hypocritically) the representatives of Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster for favouring their monarchs familial "little privileges of the middle ages" over "the proud english people". When a representative of Woodbridge (one that wasn't considered pollist enough to be made a partisan of Poll before his speech) standed to denounce Poll as doing a coup d'état against the British nation herself and her democratic dignity, he was forcibly put back into his chair by other pro-Poll representatives telling him to "shut up baboon lover(racist slur against New Britain's friendly attitude towards its africanization of British culture), you don't know what you're talking about" before harassing him. A woman representing Lancaster decided it was enough and announced she boycotted the session. Poll and his crew, having already a plan for such a case beforehand, announced that it wasn't a choice of wether they approved his plan or not: it was an order, as armed soldiers that pled allegiance to Poll blocked the exits. He demand they allow him to become the official de jure and de facto king of England as their respective countries politicians will be rewarded with great wealth and power over their country under his Decentralized Kingdom of Great Britain model....if they want to exit this room that is. Southern England, Newolland, Essex and Woodbridge immediately and proudly (their governments having made a deal agreeing behind closed doors that they recognize Poll as king of their country if they could maintain power over local issues) announce they accord the full right for Edward Poll to be the king of their country while others say they officialy cut ties with the OBN and the Pro-Poll countries. Since they abandonned their power in this decision, Poll tell the soldiers to let them go. Meanwhile, in New Britain, the word is out long enough that politicians demand the king to declare war on Poll and restore the British nation as protests in favour of the reunification of New Britain and Old Britain are widespread and many people in a social movement nolstagically retell publically the great military and cultural exploits of the old United Kingdom. Even africans start feeling they could be a part of this reunified Britain as equal non second-class citizens (thanks to the record of New Britain of making them welcomed in its culture). Andrew still refuses to invade even as he receive messages from his relatives in Old Britain of the situation as they officially cut ties with OBN countries and Poll, begging him to stand against his usurper.

Poll announce after to all the englishmen and women to gather together tommorow at the stadium (wich one? you decide guys if you're still reading this), with big televisions and radio channels being there to transmit the event. He says that this day he'll reveal the commonly agreed, by all countries of England, monarch for all of England; all of England will soon in a historical event be reunited once more for a new golden age free from the past. Media and people, unaware of the official unethical backing of Poll by certain countries, joyfully celebrate and wild speculations arise about who the monarch could be. Andrew? Zara? Linda Harrison? George? A vocal group demand Edward Poll as the monarch in the south of the country, backed by several lobbied medias there while certain medias in the north fear that Poll could become the monarch if his speech wasn't actually a metaphor and he wanted to become king. Then, the speech of Poll occured, announcing live that he was "choosen" as the new king of England, telling his great works on post-DD Britain contrary to the "pesky cowards that are the Windsors" and how he'll unite in a confederate new way the country against the Celtic Union. With him as king on top of the strong local governments that'll deal with local justice, application of law, taxes, services and administration while he'll solely oversees all the good going of the country in non-domestic affairs: foreign policy, education, legislation, executive power and military. 

After he end his speech and said "Long live the king! God bless the king!" expecting generous applauding and approval, he received instead omnious oppressive silence from the crowd. Then, clashing voices of celebration and hostility rise in a cacophony. The passions rise up, two sides form, verbal disputes erupt between them until violence follows. A large-scale violent mass riot erupts, as people flee the scene screaming while others fall down the steps to their death or die by being beated up or stomped to death. A group of people peacefully marches towards Edward Poll, demanding to come back on his decision and to tell his supporters to stop fighting followed by another who wants to attack him. Fearing for his life, he orders his soldiers to come shoot them all at sight. The rest, with the deadly fighting in the stadium, leaves the rest of the world with the shocking sight of the brutal massacre of peaceful protesters live on TV/radio. Edward Poll flees the scene as the supportive governments declare their full sovereignty to be over (with the exception of Essex who made an agreement to help Poll in exchange of independence) and that they'll apply wartime measures, controlling temporarily all the media (censuring on time the bloodshed of the stadium declaration) and abolishing parliaments as police patrols the streets under the orders of Poll surogates. Violent protests shake these countries as Pollists people helped by the military and police crush down dissent. Cleveland, Southern Scotland, Northumbria, Lancaster, Westmoreland declare war on the Pollist countries in reprisals as popular support for war explodes under the disgust of the new king's actions. Andrew have enough and, in an emergency session of parliament, backed by popular support from politicians and civilians, declares war on Edward Poll for violating human dignity and democracy, conscription is voted. 

That's a good idea on how I see the war starting, I know it's LONG (worked on this all day Lol). I'm proud of that.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)


Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. You made it sound truly shocking and definitely something that could be the cause of a war. As for the stadium, possibly the one in Kings Lynn? Anyway, you have my vote of support. Keep up the brilliant work! MrWoodward (talk) 13:32, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean The Walks??

[https://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/conference/conference-north/king-lynn-town-the-walks.html https://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/conference/conference-north/king-lynn-town-the-walks.html

Verence71 (talk) 17:58, April 4, 2020 (UTC)]


Nah mate you need an indoor sports hall. A covered stadium. FiteOwl (talk) 19:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

The best I can think of is the Sir David Wallace Sports Hall at the University of Loughborough although in this timeline it may be called something different

[https://www.lboro.ac.uk/sport/facilities/sports-facilities/sports-halls/ https://www.lboro.ac.uk/sport/facilities/sports-facilities/sports-halls/

Verence71 (talk) 12:46, April 5, 2020 (UTC)]


Cool. That'll be fine. Loughborough is alright because it was the temporary capital of the Republic of Leicester until the OBN came in and shut the whole thing down. I approve. MrWoodward (talk) 14:30, April 5, 2020 (UTC)


So as I understand it alhough the governments of Woodbridge, Essex, Newolland and Southern England are backing Poll but not everyone within those nations are?? Is it possible therefore that when the war breaks out there are some forces in those states that will openly declare for the Windsors??

What form of government will England have after the war?? 

Verence71 (talk) 13:41, April 6, 2020 (UTC)


You're right Verence. I'd estimate a 60% for-40% against ratio in these countries. The majority of dioceses, even in those places, still recognize Andrew as the rightful head of the anglican church (and therefore head of the English kingdom). They'd definitely be part of a dissent against the regime of Edward Poll (think like the resistance of the catholic church against the authoritarian regimes of Argentina in the 80s and in the Phillippines now) and Poll and his now puppet-once sovereign ministers would make sure to try to crack down on them. Violent protests erupted initially against such an apparent coup and takeovers over their once sovereign country, but the army, police and Pollist radicals of counter protests silenced them down. Those persecuted includes: sovereigntists that want their post-DD country to not be part of this England, Abolitionists that refuses to be again under a monarch (particularly present in Southern England, don't ask me why) as well as Windsorists (clearly seeing that the Windsor would maintain democracy and traditionnal nobility in England), anti-Poll members of clergy, Communists, Anarchists, Pacifists and Intellectuals (who clearly see that under the Poll regime, the rule of law would be over, with the local governments having immense power to inforce without resistance any order of an absolute monarch). Resistance cells form against Poll's England akin to French resistance during WW2. 

I think it would be logical with such arguments that there would be forces in those countries that openly are against Poll but the initial, carefully crafted to happen, impulsive pro-Poll reactions and arrests by the forces of order would quickly silence/censor them or push them to be more secretive and undercover. That momentum build before the takeover was a exploit, taking extra care for the word to only spread in favourable ears and to discretly take control of the local media to gently push the general narrative in favour of Poll (by stating the need for a potential monarch in order to stabilize the country, valuing his past actions, playing on the fears of people that would be best to benefit the cause, trashing the Windsors etc.). 

For a post-war government for England, I think a pre-DD governement would be best (and that's fitting with the promise of the Windsors side: bringing England back to where it left of and even, with the New Britain experience, correct its flaws). It would be a parilamentary system with a house of commons and a house of lords (a good thank you gift to the type of aristocrats that supported Andrew) with the king of Great Britain (since it includes Southern Scotland) having a symbolic role. Except of having England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as constituant countries, it would be England, Scotland and South Africa. Overseas territories would nominate a deputy to represent them in the British parliament. Altough frankly I think it's a bit soon to decide that since that war would probably only end in 2022-2023 and we're just in 2020. 

Also is the Ipswich conflict still going on? The invasion of the Isle of Eels? Or were they forgotten before they actually ended?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:19, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


Oh they are both over long ago.  The end of the Ipswich Incident was that Woodbridge took control of Ipswich from the gangs/clans that were controlling it at the time.  Political and military corruption was discovered in the aftermath which led to the governing Conservative Party almost losing their majority in parliament in the General Election that took place the following month.

The Invasion of the Isle of Eels was over by the end of July 2011

Verence71 (talk) 09:30, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


Yes the end of this is that the UK will finally be reborn (ish), with its pre-DD parliamentary government and the Windsors back on their throne. Poll would be arrested and put in custody (where you can decide), along with the rest of his closest people. What about the parliaments of Newolland and Woodbridge? Would their MP's be integrated into the new UK House of Commons? And as for the Ipswich Incident, it needs urgent updating.

MrWoodward (talk) 12:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


I've just updated the infobox on the Ipswich Incident which is a start

[https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ipswich_Incident_%281983:_Doomsday%29 https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ipswich_Incident_%281983:_Doomsday%29

Verence71 (talk) 12:58, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]


The peace talks, the dismantling of Emperor Edward Poll's plot and the negotiations about the reunification of the UK would all be settled in the Treaty of Swannington, in the town hall. Zukushaman (talk) 12:50, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


I disagree with the choice for the city. These sort of things are usually done in a neutral third-party country outside of the belligerent countries. New London in the Celtic Alliance would make a better choice I think (it's even in the interest of the Celtic Alliance to have a stable neighbour so they'd be open to it) inside the Windsors castle. Considering the MP (those that were made part of the coup, the others or those refusing the whole thing having been kicked out of their parliaments to avoid potential opposition with propaganda to cover the true reasons) have backed up Poll's plan and openly collaborated with him, I don't think they'd be forgotten or let go so easily. I see post-Poll Great Britain as being divided in the closest way to pre-DD England, with some being renamed or modified a bit in their borders to accomodate new realities like nuked cities and cultural changes/cities that grown in size and influence since 1983. Speaking of nuked cities, many in 2020 will finally be livable again! Those includes: York, Kingston upon Hull, Bristol, Leicester, Norwich, Coventry, Stoke on Trent, Wolverhamton, Reading, Dudley, Durham, Southend on Sea, Swindon, Huddersfield, Oxford, Cambridge, Stockport, Peterborough, Slough, Dover, Brighton, Gloucester, Rotherham and Newport. One of the first actions of the new Great Britain would undertake after the war would be a massive operation of rebuilding similar to the post-WW2 period to stimulate a boom in the economy. Not only would populated cities be rebuild across England and Southern Scotland, a massive never-seen before program of incentives would be made for ex-refugees of those no more radioactive cities and descendants/relatives of them to reinstall themselves into these cities to rebuild them faithfully with the help fo the United Communities, who saw this conflict as the best time to finally hold a foot in Europe, Prussia, some french countries and the rich Nordic Union. 

Also, for that corruption scandal following Ipswich, it should be added into the related articles if not already done. We're making you working some more Verence :). 

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:25, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


The corruption scandal that followed the Ipswich Incident is already in this part of the page about Woodbridge

Current Events

Verence71 (talk) 17:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]

Ok. New London it is. And yes many cities are habitable now, which was as I remember one of the reasons the Leicestershire independence movement happened recently at this time, and they even had a program to rebuild Leicester. Now the UK government can do it, and do it correctly along with many other newly habitable cities. By the way, could I build a character page for Edward Poll? As he is now most definitely relevant.

MrWoodward (talk) 20:33, April 7, 2020 (UTC)


Sure, go ahead. Just remember to make sure it is realistic, follow the established canon (if it is realistic, else make objections to them first to hopefully get your point across) and make sure to explain what that dude was doing before Doomsday and before he became chief of OBN. Show a good progression of his life. And, just you know, you can disagree with the New London choice if that doesn't make any sense for you, I'd be pleased to know why (its not because I suggest it that it is authority).

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:02, April 8, 2020 (UTC)


Ok I've made the page! You can read about Edward Poll here. Could you help out with it a little bit please? Thank you guys!

MrWoodward (talk) 17:45, April 8, 2020 (UTC)


The map seriously needs updating

Zukushaman (talk) 13:33, April 10, 2020 (UTC)


What map are you talking about?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:55, April 10, 2020 (UTC)


The map of Great Britain and the successor states, shown on quite a few pages. Cleveland, the OBN... Most maps which show the current state of Britain and expansions of Newolland and Woodbridge for example.

Zukushaman (talk) 14:35, April 11, 2020 (UTC)


As far as a prison for Poll and his inner circle how about this place??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framlingham_Castle

Woodbridge used it as a prison for violent criminals when it was still under military control

Verence71 (talk) 17:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)


Here's a thought for the "Imperator". What if the position of Emperor is a meritocratic one, like the Roman Emperor? Poll could decide after his coronation or you know during the war that his successor would be one of his closest peers or generals, one loyal to the regime (this is because, having read the biography article, Poll has no children or spouse). He would have his successor prepared, but of course it would never work out because they'll end up losing the war and the regime collapsing.

FiteOwl (talk) 19:39, April 11, 2020 (UTC)


That's what I was intending. That's exactly why the Newolland monarchy supported fully his plan (in order to be eligible for such a crown as part of a new court and elite whose members of their family could for generations get favours out of the king). But even with that, like I said, I think it's a bit too early to decide the aftermath of the war: the war will surely only end in 2022-2024 and didn't even started yet! Also for the stadium, isn't there any surviving or build after DD stadium that is circular? Else a football stadium covered by bleachers all around it would still do the trick. But a "Football stadium coronation" wouldn't make sense inside a sports hall I think.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)


Okay the "stadium" can be outside. It's good to have an already planned aftermath though, so while this goes on as a live ongoing timeline, we can update the war's progress bit by bit with events likely to happen while still keeping in mind the solution it must come to.

I agree about the map thing. The map of GB needs on quite a few articles needs looking at.

MrWoodward (talk) 23:36, April 11, 2020 (UTC)


Hello guys! I see the Edward Poll page hasn't been updated /is incomplete. Is it ok if I fill it in? Hope everyone is alright Nay Mate Woody (talk) 11:36, April 22, 2020 (UTC)


I'm alright. I'm okay with you continuing as long as you stay true to style, context and logic we all agreed (and I'm sure you will). I'm really proud of that coffee meeting of mine and thrilled to see it come to light.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:00, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

Republic of Leicester becoming canon

Hey everyone! It seems that nobody seems to show any objections to the republic that has just seceded from Newolland. From my perspective it is ready to become canon. Any objections? BroccotropolisGov (talk) 17:40, November 9, 2019 (UTC)

I like it. It's really bizarre but then again this is a TL in which there's a whole religion around Abraham Lincoln and where most of the world's politics have changed drastically since the disastrous events of 1983. The whole system's different and messed up, it could work. It is ridiculous if we look at it in our OTL, but it could work.

FiteOwl (talk) 14:28, November 10, 2019 (UTC)



I was responding to SigmaHero045 about this earlier. In this timeline, taking note of all the territorial alterations and, dare I say, deformities that have taken place, I believe the creation of a crazy Leicesterian microstate is something very plausible. The Sons of De Montfort are very much a group like what the TBA once was, but that believe in the opposite. The TBA were right-wing, the Sons of De Montfort are left-wing, the TBA are radical unionists, the Sons of De Montfort are secessionists who believe that Newolland is weak and not functioning correctly. Both also recurred to violence to achieve their goals, and its likely that its forced citizens aren’t all that willing (it was a coup, after all, that got Leicester’s so far unrecognized independence). Die dulci fruere!

BroccotropolisGov (talk) 18:37, November 10, 2019 (UTC)



Hello everyone. It's been a while and it looks like nobody seems to be against the page becoming canon. Do I have permission to remove the proposal tag on the Republic of Leicester?

BroccotropolisGov (talk) 10:04, November 21, 2019 (UTC)


Looks fine to me. Nobody has said anything so its probably good to go mate.

FiteOwl (talk) 17:17, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

Saguenay War

Is there any canonical information about why Superior allied with Saguenay in the Saguenay War? What I found on the "Saguenay War" page about the diplomatic setup and underlying cause of the war was pretty vague and didn't explain much. I'm not very familiar with the timeline so I'm sorry if there's some explanation that I haven't noticed yet.

Comrade Bunny (talk) 21:16, March 27, 2018 (UTC)


Saguenay Weaver?--Katie P Perry (talk) (talk) 00:17, October 13, 2018 (UTC)

Russian Confederacy restores the monarchy. Long live the Tsarina.

I have an idea about the Russian Confederacy what if it becomes a constitutional monarchy with a symbolic figurehead the Tsar? These different independent subgovernments within the confederacy can finally unite into one centralized state. It is an idea that the most conservative russian politicians within said state would definitely approve of.

The candidate for the throne would be the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova , who, because she was living in Spain when doomsday happened (she was north of Madrid, nowhere near where the bomb would have struck, and most likely would have had security help her to a nearby bunker). She would be the ideal candidate, and she would also insist on modernizing the Russian monarchy, having less extravagance less riches and not as much pomp. Like what King Juan Carlos I of Spain said when he was restored to his throne in 1975. The Tsarina would have no real effective power, acting only as a constitutional figurehead to guide and warn her Presidents, and to be there to represent the unity of people in times of need. What do you think?

BroccotropolisGov (talk) 00:48, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

ISIL

Would radical, Sunni Muslim militia rise like ISIL around this time? Considering the fact that Islamic Iraq and other radical Muslim nations may fund a group like that to discriminate Shia Muslims and to destroy Shias in general? Saturn (Talk/Blog) 16:11, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Such a group already exists in the form of the Muslim Liberation Army - though it is more Shia-dominated in theory, most of its members are Sunni.

Past that, closest is the Chechens, who are far worse here than otl.

Lordganon (talk) 11:09, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

ISIL is heavily influenced by the American invasion of Iraq and the Syrian Civil War. While there would undoubtably be radical Muslim groups, I very much doubt they'd resemble ISIL.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  12:10, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Manicouagan Reservoir

Just a simple question I wanted to ask for a while now.

Would it have been plausible for Qúebec and Canadian refugees to flee north inland and then settle around the Manicouagan Reservoir? It appears that Canada (in chaos on doomsday) couldn't stablize the area (or any area tbh), especially within the first few years. My guess is that if enough people immigrate to the area, would it be possible to create a Centralized government to form? Saturn (Talk/Blog) 02:37, December 3, 2014 (UTC)

Too far from anywhere for any real number of refugees. Anyone living up there already would also be fairly independent, and be fine.

To put it into perspective, there isn't any towns along the highway that skirts its eastern shore all the way from the St. Lawrence coast, until well into Labrador. And since the coast is fine....

Area is not suitable for sustaining large populations, either. There's a reason why much of the northern forests have basically been written off.

Lordganon (talk) 12:51, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

New Chinese State in the South/Yangtze Region

I was looking around the TL, and thought it would be the perfect place to get some country-writing in. Would I be able to "found" another Imperial Chinese Dynasty? I know one exists in the north, but I mean one in the south that is quite a bit bigger than others and is bent on reinsttuting the tributary system across Asia, at least in the long run. They would begin with problems growing rice for their pretty massive population after nuclear strikes, and the Republican government then falls. Soon, after a long period of anarchy that would allow the southern Chinese states already there to gain land (only if their authors were okay with a major edit to their post-doomsday history) a sort of "Peasant-leader" rises up as one of the greater administrators/generals. He (still working on a name for the country, maybe Lin or Rí) would centralize the nation and give great speeches about reuniting the Middle Kingdom, etc. etc. By now they'd probably have dealt with their logisitcs problems and are looking at the fields of their neighbors for either conquest or peaceful annexation.

Any questions/ideas? CaptainRyRi (talk) 17:59, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

The mere fact that you say "major edit to" other articles means it is not possible.

Past that... this would probably be a terrible spot, anyway. Far too much fallout and refugees.

Lordganon (talk) 18:16, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I had no idea, I thought the map showed the radioactivity in the northern parts.

Well, I've quite a few ideas, I'll think of one that appeals to me. Thanks!

CaptainRyRi (talk) 20:59, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Andalusia Idea and others

I have a new idea for a nation. Andalusia. Spain claims us as their own, and with parts of old-Portugal so do they. They don't control the straits of Gibraltar due to that already being taken (maybe a short was was faought over them, and some kind of "Battle of Gibraltar" could give lots of potential for tensions.) but they do control lots of trade in the region due to having most of the port-towns inbetween Spain and Portugal. I can't decide if their nation drive is to have a sort of Rereconquista as they are full of Muslims/Andalusian nationalists, or if they are a Christian successor state to Spain and plan to reunite the Peninsula themselves. They would have a single navy for now, but if more Mediterranean ports are taken they would quickly build a more "specialized" fleet for the inland seas. With a rich culture that is based off of pre-end Spain, they have the potential to be a Mediterranean/North Atlantic power, but a long time of rebuilding and centralizing would be needed first.

Another idea is a New San Francisco, a rather strange idea, I know, but the tens of thousands of refugees would escape north across the Golden Gate into "Wine Country". It could be a rather agricultural state that claims most of the Bay Area as their own. But technology to clean up the radioactive wastes of the city is lacking.

And questions or ideas? And rules being broken?

CaptainRyRi (talk) 21:15, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

...For starters, the other states already in those areas?

Like the ideas in general, understand, but have more of a look around the areas in question first, eh?

Lordganon (talk) 23:36, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are, I feel like any new state will at least "intrude" on others some. I think the California one is less "edit-needed" than the rest. I could probably slip in a small city-state without the big survivors noticing until recently, you know? Maybe instead I could be a mercenary band based off of the sports teams of San Francisco... the Giants... perhaps? And eventually settle down when given land by a former client.

CaptainRyRi (talk) 03:01, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Well, in the case of the Spanish one, entire area you refer to is under other states or the LoN Straits zone.

There's a Napa proposal out there - the Napa concept is canon, fyi - that you can take over. Alternatively, Clear Lake could in theory support something small. Won;t be something not noticed by others, mind.

As for such a band... probably not. Not as mercenaries, at any rate.

Lordganon (talk) 00:44, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

Cherokee nation

I'm planning on making an article about a cherokee survivor state in northern Oklahoma, mostly based around the Adair and Cherokee counties, though the question is, is it plausible? Dreamcaster1 (talk) 18:08, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

A small one in Cherokee County would be, I think. Avoid fallout, and should be far enough from Tulsa. Lordganon (talk) 11:06, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Oklahoma Panhandle

Would a survivor state in the Oklahoma Panhandle be possible? The Oklahoma page mentions there were some faming communes there. Also, it appears the Panhandle manages to avoid most of the fallout and I don't think there were any nuclear strikes near it. Two possible locations for a nation could be Beaver City, the largest city in the panhandle, or the Oklahoma Panhandle State University. CheesyCheese (talk) 19:03, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Lordganon (talk) 01:47, July 7, 2016 (UTC)


I'd be interested, go ahead and make a first draft!

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:51, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Continental Economies

Hello. I would like to create articles regarding the economies (Whatever's left of them) of each continent. Am I asking at the right page? Erizium (talk)

Sign your posts so we know who you are please. There is already an Economy page. You are asking on the right page though, I believe (LG, feel free to correct me if I am wrong though).

But you may need to ask about editing the page, because I am not sure if it is a community page or a user's page. Daeseunglim (talk)

Right page, but not sure that there is a point. Lordganon (talk) 16:50, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Global Seed Bank

Would there be a international seed bank like the Global Seed Bank in otl? Considering how devastating Doomsday was to international ecology it would help preserve for the future internationally. It could be built in the Arctic like otl, or Antarctic near the ANZC or SAC. I don't know how realistic it would be to have one due to lags in certain technology. Daeseunglim (talk)

I'm sure that the idea would have come up, thought not built yet.

Location... well, the SAC and ANZC would be the ones behind it, mostly, with the LoN. Problem is, their area is not secure geologically, cold enough, and accessible. There's a reason why it is located where it is otl. Bet on that being the atl spot too.

Lordganon (talk) 15:31, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Apocaluck

I asked this question on LG's talkpage but I didn't get an answer. The question being how accurate Apocaluck is for deciding whether or not a city/town would survive the nuclear war. Yank 21:29, October 6, 2015 (UTC)

...Could have sworn I answered you. Meh.

Useless, quite honestly.

Lordganon (talk) 03:06, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

New World Map

Updated. Redid the whole thing, lol. So, if you were wondering where I've been the last week, or what I've been up to.... Well, this is it, lol. Lordganon (talk) 16:48, November 1, 2015 (UTC)

Could ya make a higher resolution world map, it kina hard to see

Charlesthe50th (talk) 23:36, January 7, 2016 (UTC)

...Click on the map and it will zoom in. Lordganon (talk) 21:39, February 3, 2016 (UTC)

Italy

Need help with articles on Italy ? Or i can made new articles on Italy Col. James Hsu (talk), 13 January, 2016 16:04 (UTC)

How to make a custom map/with its own borders, online?

Just wondering if theres a website or program to do this on. I can always photoshop it, but thats no fun.Charlesthe50th (talk) 02:25, January 20, 2016 (UTC)

Here a good map. Col. James Hsu 20:19, February 3, 2016 (UTC)

How to create nation?

Hello! I'm new to this wiki,and I was just looking around this TL,and I was wondering,how do you create a survivor state? Do you just choose any place not claimed,and create a nation there,or are there rules I'm missing on how to create a nation? Also,once you've created the nation,do have to add it to the main page map? 108.195.148.116 01:54, February 23, 2016 (UTC)

The first thing you need to do is establish an account.  Anonymous contributors are frowned upon in the wiki.  After that you should read up on all the areas around the "unclaimed" land.  Consider where the nearest nuclear strike was.  Research the population, the resources and the personnel to determine the feasibility of such a survivor state.

Then, once you are satisfied that such a state might work, place it among the proposals on this talk page. It will then be scrutinized by the community. Suggestions will be made as to its plausibility, and about any changes that might bring it to community standards. As it is right now, there is very little in the way of "original" states that might work. However, it is feasible that breakaway states might have developed in the course of 33 years.

If a proposal is "graduated" to the status of "canon" (that is, accepted as legitimate) it will be added to the chart of nations and eventually added to an updated world map. --SouthWriter (talk) 17:03, February 23, 2016 (UTC)

Hello

Just want to introduce myself. I am Alienation999.

Please may I contribute to the 1984: Doomsday timeline? I would like to work with an already established AltHist before I start my own.

If I am allowed to join, please may I be given just a few tasks to do just to help me get started in the timeline?

Cheers, Alienation (talk) 23:47, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

...Wrong name, but ok...

Anyone can join. No tasks - more like "what areas interest you?"

Lordganon (talk) 01:47, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

New Chinese Fascist State?

Would it be possible to create another Chinese state, but this time a fascist state? Maybe the "North Chinese Front" or "Greater Chinese Empire" or something like that. I was thinking in the area next to the pre-existing People's Republic of China (In 'Pre-doomsday' Western Liaoning, all of Hebei, Northern Shandong, Beijing and Tianjin). I do realize that there were mutiple nuclear strike in that area on Beijing, Tianjin, Jinan and Dinghai, but this area was China's most industrialized area, with lots of natural resources and fossil fuels, along with hundreds of millions of people prior to the nuclear strike. They would border Manchurian Territory, Peoples Republic of China and Kingdom of Jiangsu. Possible capitals could be Shijiazhuang, Tangshan or Handan. Would such a nation be possible? C4nt h3lp 1t (talk) 02:11, April 5, 2016 (UTC)

Well you can. Only don't make a nation on a territory of a other nation. Is impossibile create a Fascist State in China. You can create a Fascist State in Italy or in Europe but not in Asia. User:Col. James Hsu

Then what if it were to be a regular Liberal, Democratic state of China? There aren't any of those yet. Just Regional democracies such as Taiwan and Hainan. So maybe Republic of Northern China or something?

Choose you where put your nation and look the map. For example i have make Seborga. A Principality basend on a real microstate. Seborga (1983: Doomsday)User:Col. James Hsu, 6/4/2016 (UTC) 

Colorado idea

I have an idea for a new nation.

It is called the Kingdom of Huerfano, but it's commonly referred to as Colorado. They control modern-day Colorado, excluding the parts occupied by Utah, Navajo, and the U. S..

Its history would be something like this, but this is only a rough draft: It is 1985, much of Colorado is still damaged, but South Colorado and other territories were never nuked during the exchange, and in the remains of Huerfano county was a small city state known as "Walsenburg." Walsenburg was ruled by Robert Ivanov, who had ruled since 1983 and was running the city like a monarchy. He died in 1985 while visitng the still radioactive remains of Denver. The new ruler was his son, Michael Ivanov. Michael vowed he would restore the former glory of the now nonexistent Huerfano County, and conquered large parts of Colorado, but things went downhill when the nation fell into civil war. Michael was killed in the last battle of the war. Michael's eldest son, John Ivanov gained power. Almost after he gained power he mobilized the reserve army and destroyed the rebels in one final battle. Almost immediately after he worked on rebuilding Huerfano and entered Huerfano into a golden age. While doing this he abolished the air force, made Huerfano some allies, and reduced the size of the military.

Huerfano would not have much influence over other nations except for maybe a few city-states in the ruins of New Mexico. It would be neutral in wars and it would have good relations with all its neighbors. It has no navy or air force, and a small army that is rarely used. It is a very republican/conservative country. Its culture would be a mix of Latino/Hispanic, American, Russian, and German, due to the royal family being Russian, the large number of Latinos/Hispanics and Germans, and it being in what used to be America. It would be run by an absolute monarchy, but would be democratic in every other way, and its economic system would be capitalism.

What do you think? Am I breaking any rules? Blue48577 (talk) 01:14, July 3, 2016 (UTC)

...Fictional people are a no. And, Russians> >.>;

Long-established that Colorado is taken care of.

Lordganon (talk) 01:47, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

St Andrews and Fife? What exists in this timeline?

Based on the existing information:-

http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?t=62704044288048ab3faab9b49f66675f

However it depends on the Wind Direction, and what certain russian planners knew about a certain Bunker near Anstruther.

Thoughts? Can Golf survive post Doomesday? :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:16, July 23, 2017 (UTC)

Hopefully yes. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 16:28, July 6, 2020 (UTC)

UK RSG

Lore and cannon issues in the UK

1983ddukmapnew

A UK map.

83britmap

A UK map.

New London (1983: Doomsday)

A 100Kt nuke would have leveled most of Windsor north of it on fire. Fall out would be Windows would have shattered in Gerrard's Cross, miles away. Even a 10kt nuke would shatter windows in Windsor and burn up Eton Wick. Is it possible for the place to survive and become a state or not, I think it is unlikely.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

True British Army (1983: Doomsday)

It is now long cannon that Luton became a major TBA city that Essex later conquered. Lore says it was hit by a 100 kt nuke that would have destroyed it apart from the outer fringes of adjacent Dunstable, thus a plot hole and story line paradox. I propose that he nuke slightly misses (it happened for Glasgow and Liverpool). If the Luton nuke exploded 5 miles to the north over Barton-Le-Clay, most of Luton (except a small bit by the airport and it's 10kt nuke) would only get moderate or light blast damage, plus any radiation depending on the winds, thus the town and the few survivors could be recovered by the TBA.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Dorset, Hertfordshire and Oxfordshire

Who owns the counties of Dorset, Hertfordshire and Oxfordshire?

  • Articles and maps disagree:
  1. OBN page- Oxen and Berks are Celtic.
  2. Celtic Alliance page- Hertfordshire, Oxfordshire, Berkshire are Celtic.
  3. Essex page- Hertfordshire is Essexian. New London's part of Berkshire is Celtic.
  4. Maps generally agree Hertfordshire is equally terra nullis or Essex, New London is Celtic, non New London Berkshire and Dorset shown equally terra nullis and Celtic, and Oxen mostly as terra nullis.

Hertfordshire in next door to Essex, so they would have the best chance of getting to it, but would any one want Oxfordshire yet.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:03, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Lanarkshire's ownership

What the Southern Scotland page said:

After the war the allied nations decided to divide up some of the land that Ur Alba had conquered in the previous two years.
The Celtic Alliance will get the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.

The Kingdom of Northumbria will get a border with the Celtic Alliance along the southern section of the old A76 and also the towns of Lockerbie and Moffat, all land south of the A706 including the towns of Selkirk, Hawick, Melrose, Jedburgh, Kelso, Galashiels, Duns and Eyemouth on the North Sea coast. However in a surprise announcement on the 20th August 2011 the Northumbrian Witain announce that all lands gained after the Ur Alba war will be returned to Southern Scotland on the provision of the election of a democratic government. It will however keep a small section of border with the Celtic Alliance near the town of Gretna.

Under this agreement the border has returned to almost the former English/Scottish border.
The area will be called Southern Scotland, the new nations capital will be in Edinburg.

What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The capital is Glasgow. It is formed from the former Scottish counties of Dumfrieshire, Perthshire, Inverness-shire, Ayrshire, Caithness and Sutherland, Ross, Moray, Angus, Aberdeenshire, Argyll, and small areas of neighbouring counties.
Areas around the towns of Ayr and Dumfries were taken into the Celtic Alliance after the defeat of Ur Alba in the Ur Alba War.

What the Hiatory of Scotland page said:

East Kirkcudbrightshire - Malcolm MacKinnon : Fishermens Guild
West Kirkcudbrightshire - Fiona Fletcher : Oat Guild'

The Celtic Alliance page say it has not got control over Fife. The Celtic Alliance page say it has not got control over Fife, Lanarkshire or Remfrewshire, the Southern Scotland page said they had Lanarkshire partly annexed off them by the Celtic Alliance and most maps show them as CA held. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 05:07, July 7, 2020 (UTC)

Much of mainland Scotland in general

The Kingdom of Scotland page said:

In mid 1990 a group of anti-communist Scottish monarchists joined together under a man named James Stuart, their aim was to restore to Kingdom of Scotland to its former heights, James Stuart took the royal name James VIII to try to show continuity with the former Jacobian Kingdom from pre 1707. Over the next three years support for this new Kingdom grew throughout the area until it controlled nearly two-thirds of the former south of Scotland. Throughout this time they struck into the heart of the Scottish Alliance suffering few losses.
After the collapse of the Kingdom of Scotland, King James VIII fled east into the Scottish wilds near the current Northumbria border, nothing has been heard of him since the winter of 2007, he is assumed dead.

What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The capital is Glasgow. It is formed from the former Scottish counties of Dumfrieshire, Perthshire, Invernessshire, Ayrshire, Caithness and Sutherland, Ross, Moray, Angus, Aberdeenshire, Argyll, and small areas of neighbouring counties.
Areas around the towns of Ayr and Dumfries were taken into the Celtic Alliance after the defeat of Ur Alba in the Ur Alba War.

It becomes clear that the three missiles that targeted Glasgow did not all reach their target, with one missile reaching the nuclear base on the river Clyde, the western fringes of the city and towns notably Greenock, Clydebank and Dumbarton receive heavy damage. Nevertheless, the majority of the city remains intact. Contact with Dublin is restored and long supply lines are started via Oban as the lower Clyde is contaminated. Glasgow formally appoints a new Senator Provost (as opposed to OTL Lord Provost) who will sit in the Dublin Parliament. The Senator Provost is Jim Sillers a well known trade unionist and Scottish Nationalist.

What the Southern Scotland page said:

After the war the allied nations decided to divide up some of the land that Ur Alba had conquered in the previous two years.
The Celtic Alliance will get the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
The Kingdom of Northumbria will get a border with the Celtic Alliance along the southern section of the old A76 and also the towns of Lockerbie and Moffat, all land south of the A706 including the towns of Selkirk, Hawick, Melrose, Jedburgh, Kelso, Galashiels, Duns and Eyemouth on the North Sea coast.
However in a surprise announcement on the 20th August 2011 the Northumbrian Witain announce that all lands gained after the Ur Alba war will be returned to Southern Scotland on the provision of the election of a democratic government. It will however keep a small section of border with the Celtic Alliance near the town of Gretna.
Under this agreement the border has returned to almost the former English/Scottish border.
The area will be called Southern Scotland, the new nations capital will be in Edinburg.

The Ur Alba War page says:

The leaders of the township of Stranraer have sent a message to the Chamberhouse in Peebles.

What the History of Scotland page said:

East Kirkcudbrightshire - Malcolm MacKinnon : Fishermens Guild
West Kirkcudbrightshire - Fiona Fletcher : Oat Guild
  • Basically the maps are at total conflict with the lore and cannon and the CA page dose not list CA controlee ver several places!
  • Angus, Sterlingshire, (give or take Southern Scotland having the Falkirk-Grangemouth area on one map.), Remfrewshire and, Dumbartonshire, Wigtownshire, Clackmannenshire, Kinross-shire, Buteshire, Banfshire and Kincardineshire should all be unclaimed terra nullis, save for the discovered remnants of Greenock, Clydebank and Dumbarton cities.
    • The part of Scotland that is CA on their page (pluss the unclaimed adjoining territory of Buteshire and Banfshire) would have joined in the wake of the SNP singeing the Hebrides up for it. I'm Shure the mayors Ian C. Fraser and Allan G. Sellar would like to join it. The rest, which the CA page puts down as unclaimed could be the Kingdom of Scotland, which they conquer and occupies, but did not fully integrate. The CA wants to set up a new state, but the (anti-English\Irish) racist basterds are even worse to reprogram than Southern Scotland.
    • The Celtic Alliance gets the Ur Alba land between the the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
    • Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or ireradited could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.
    • Wigtownshire is just over the sea from N. Ireland and would logically join the CA early on, but soon got captured by Ur Alba.

Fife

Why would the Celtic Alliance bother with southern and Eastern Fife, its nuked to oblivion apart from around Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Kelty, Glenrothes, Methil a strip along the south bank of the River Tay, Tayport and Cupar. I think it should mostly be unclaimed terra nullis until after 2000.

  • The nuked places are:
  1. RAF Pitreavie Castle- 10kt
  2. Anstruther RSG- 20kt
  3. Rosyth Dockyard- 10kt
  4. RAF Leuchars- 10kt
  5. DM Crombie- 10kt
  6. MOD Caledonia- 10kt
  7. Radiation from Lothian hits Burntisland.

Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or irradiated could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.

Wales

What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The (south Welsh) Valleys, Monmouthshire, Glamorgan, Neath and Bridgend joined in 1999.
Powys joined in 2002.
  • Basically most of the maps are at total conflict with the lore and cannon, they are all been shown as  unclaimed terra nullis!
    • It would make sense for the Celts, either on their own imitative or prompted by the Pembroke based Welsh state, to be annexed the region time outside the few dead zones in Glamorganshire and Gwent.

CA held "dead zones" in the former UK

The area around Holy Loch and Faslaine would be radioactive ruble for centuries to come, as would parts of Glamorgan in Wales

Kingdom of Scotland

The Kingdom of Scotland page said:

In mid 1990 a group of anti-communist Scottish monarchists joined together under a man named James Stuart, their aim was to restore to Kingdom of Scotland to its former heights, James Stuart took the royal name James VIII to try to show continuity with the former Jacobian Kingdom from pre 1707. Over the next three years support for this new Kingdom grew throughout the area until it controlled nearly two-thirds of the former south of Scotland. Throughout this time they struck into the heart of the Scottish Alliance suffering few losses.
After the collapse of the Kingdom of Scotland, King James VIII fled east into the Scottish wilds near the current Northumbria border, nothing has been heard of him since the winter of 2007, he is assumed dead.
  • The Kingdom of Scotland was never fully defined and was thus remains vague and unfilled.
    • The part of Scotland that is CA on their page (plus the unclaimed adjoining territory of Buteshire, Kincardine and Banffshire) would have joined in the wake of the SNP singeing the Hebrides up for it. I'm Shure the mayors Ian C. Fraser and Allan G. Sellar would like to join it. The rest, which the CA page puts down as unclaimed could be the Kingdom of Scotland, which they conquer and occupies, but did not fully integrate. The CA wants to set up a new state, but the (anti-English\Irish) racist bastards are even worse to reprogram than Southern Scotland.
    • The Celtic Alliance gets the Ur Alba land between the the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
    • Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or irradiated could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.
    • Wigtownshire is just over the sea from N. Ireland and would logically join the CA early on, but soon got captured by Ur Alba.

Summery

These facets are mentioned on only a few pages other than their home pages and can be tactfully modified and\or removed with out any causing chaos in the timeline if one is willing to spend a bit of time fact checking afterwards. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

São Tomé and Príncipe

I wrote São Tomé and Príncipe. It fits together with pages I wrote years ago on Ambô and Bioko. I don't know to what extent it even needs to be with a proposal, since it sort of grows out of material that's "mine". But I'm labeling it as such for now, at least. Benkarnell (talk) 04:56, August 7, 2020 (UTC)

Tenesee

Acording to the east Tennesee page it merged with nebiorgs in 2013.  Somebody, the owner of east tennesece most likely shoud make a republic of Tnnsee pageGoldwind1 (talk) 02:07, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

UEFA Euro 2012

Hello, is there someone out there who can help me with making a logo for UEFA Euro 2012? It's going to be hosted by Prussia. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 06:54, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1

Map Game?

Has anyone ever been interested in creating a map game for this? because it looks like a really good idea considering the large fanbase, I think a lot of people might be interested in a map game Erizium (talk) 05:56, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Not happening. Lordganon (talk) 11:06, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Why? It would be extremely popular.

Awesome history 28 (talk) 11:44, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1Page 2;

Counterfeit Goods

Many Counterfeit Goods are produced in places like  Thailand, Peru, and Nigeria are centers of counterfeit goods. With many major companies destroyed on Doomsday, do any of you feel that counterfeiters would try to become legitimate business? ~Gold

It's certainly not impossible on some levels, but riddle me this: With those companies went the customers to buy all of these products. Think about it. Lordganon (talk) 12:03, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of which, what about Heroin? Poppy is produced in Afghanistan, mainly, but it's refined into two types- Thai White and Turkish Brown. Thai White goes Stateside and to the Aussies, Turkish Brown to Europe. Now, you have all the production centers- would they still be producing?

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  18:31, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Market still exists, just smaller. You'd see other centers start to grow it more, too. Lordganon (talk) 07:38, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

World's Fair

Since the , I am thinking of  making a proposal for a worlds fair page. Does anyone think the first Post-Doomsday world's fair would be held before the Post-Doomsday world's fair. I am thinking of having the first worlds fair take place in Brisbine and the second worlds fair in Isheyemi Nigeria.Goldwind1 (talk) 16:59, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

...Most of that made no sense.

Overall, not impossible for the World's fairs to come back. But it's not going to be until after the Olympics did.

Lordganon (talk) 11:00, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Arcade games

I belive that is a small chace that brazil  has video game arcades. I found prove that Taito had a brazilain subcidry that was realsing game to south american aradces by 1980. I belive that snice  barzil was far engough away form an emp that it tevisons were unaffected then barizal's games will be unscathed. The games would eventally break down but i believe that Brazilian electronic engineers are cappable of reserve engineering  game compents so arcades will have sourse of parts to fix their machines. Also i belive that brazilain computer companies like microdigtal could make thier own gamesGoldwind1 (talk) 13:05, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

I think that games like Pong, Breakout, PAC-Man, and Snake would be recreated, and could exist as a computer game. Probably be like late 1980's graphics still. Daeseunglim (talk)

Do you that the ANZC would have an arcade industry. I feel that they are less likely to have one then barzil because , austialia's computer industry was wiped out on doomsdayGoldwind1 (talk) 12:22, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

Even if it was heavily damaged they had all the technology in Canberra, Brisbane, Auckland, and Wellington, plus equipment off the USS Carl Vinson. It might be slightly less developed or more reliant on technology imported from South America, but they would definitely have it. Daeseunglim (talk)

When do you think Barzil will make it frist arcade games. I doudt that the Anzc will manufacuer it's first games untill brazil doesGoldwind1 (talk) 13:29, June 28, 2015 (UTC)

Considering for a while after Doomsday the primary focus was developing enough technology to replace ageing equipment and begin manufacturing enough to replace the supply from Europe and North America, it might have only been recent. Brazil maybe by 2002-2005, and the ANZC by 2007-2010 ish. Nothing too advanced, like I said. Daeseunglim (talk)

I Read that the main player in the brazilain arcade market was Tatio barzil. They start as an importer but started making thier own machines after brazil out lawed importing pinball machines in the 1970's. Plus thier was a company called game vison. the only arcade game they have made came out in 1999 and 2001 but they did made an Atari 2600 Game that was released some time in the 80's so they may have released more games back in the 80's.I have also heard of an argentina company called  playtornic.  Do  think i have enoguh infomaiton to start an video game  page  yet Goldwind1 (talk) 22:20, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with it, but I am not an admin for this timeline. The first video games won't come out for a while, due to more important issues. Probably by the dates I said earlier, when things begin to get back to normal (as normal as they can be). By now probably Japan, CANZ, and the SAC would have video games of some sort. Japan would not have a huge industry due to its isolationist policies. Daeseunglim (talk)

​Alestorm

Could the band Alestorm still have formed in 1983DD's Scotland? And by extension the emergence of popularity of pirate metal? Dreamcaster1 (talk) 19:49, September 9, 2015 (UTC)

Most were born around 1986-1987, far as I can tell, but the problem is that the members, overall, are not from Scotland. Most are from nuked locations, truth be told. So, no, not really at all possible. They are more likely to reopen in the southern hempshere. But I think there is a small chance that the forset park in daytona beach (closed 1989 ) and cadem park in chareston west virgina may reopen. I think cadem has a better chance of reopening then foresset park because it is located in the capital of the virgina republic which is one of the richest ,and most tehcongcal advanced nations in the former usa. Is it ok If I make a page on themeparks. I think that brand new park may have open in the ANZC south amemrica or maybe even mexico

As for pirate metal, I'm sure there is a way.

Lordganon (talk) 19:50, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Themeparks

Several  theme parks survived d physical desturiton. Most of they however were left to rot. Some of them did reopen. According to the southern Indiana page holiday world reopen and the Niagara Falls pages says that Maple Leaf Village reopend. Does anybody it possalbe that any other amusent parks may have reopened post doomsday. I feel that it more likely to happen

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4

Official notice of retirement and releasing my article responsibilities to the community

This is my official notice of retirement from the wiki. I release to the community any and all countries and other concepts and articles I am considered to have responsibility and oversight over. I got my start in fan writing at 1983 Doomsday and I will be forever thankful for the numerous opportunities it gave me, including working with some very talented creators. I wish all of you the best, and perhaps we'll see each other down the road. BrianD (talk) 18:18, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

I wish you luck, and if you don't mind, I wish to become caretaker of all of your articles. 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:23, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Wow Imp. Wow. Just wow. WOW.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:26, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, no. Others want some too, Imp!!

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:35, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I got here first. :P 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:49, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it really isn't right, fair, or anything of the sort. Can't just claim all of them. Would render you unable to do any of them justice anyways. Most of them is one thing, but not all.

If it helps, the list on his page isn't all that accurate anyway. There are several on there, like International Falls, where others have/had some degree of control and it falls on them now.

Sports articles, for instance, that he has on there are community articles.

I'll be taking Vermont and the Texas articles, barring objections. Guns, what's your desires?

Lordganon (talk) 16:59, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

LG, you know Guns will claim ALL the aritcles I want :'( 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:15, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to adopt Louisiana (and its subdivision of Lake Arthur) and the Confederate States of America (Muscle Shoals). I will leave a message on their talk pages, but is it necessary that I message BrianD as well, since he has basically released all his articles here? If I will I have to, but I just want to make sure. Mscoree (talk) 20:07, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I will take over International Falls, if there are no objections. Regentage (talk) 19:38, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Imp, if that is the case, then work out a compromise with him.

I must object to the concept of Ms doing such strenuously. Same rationale as before. No way it is happening. He has still failed entirely to meet any of those conditions, and, indeed, has quit trying.

International Falls already is under my control, Reg. As I noted above, Brian's list has not been accurate for quite some time.

Lordganon (talk) 14:00, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't think I quite understood that. What do you mean by "doing such strenuously"? Mscoree (talk) 15:00, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, Imp, you insult me. Unless Brian has any articles in Africa, North of Angola, I do not want anything. I was merely stating that others will want some, eg. LG or Fed. I have to agree with LG on the Ms thing too. He has not really done much work on his current articles, and what little he has is generally either ASB or against Canon.         Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  15:27, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

There isn't much harm that can be done on these articles. I merely wish to expand them and work on them alongside some of the other cowriters. Is it possible I could be given a chance? Mscoree (talk) 15:30, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

May I have a relatively undeveloped page? Thank you, Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font>​ 01:01, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

strenuously 1. characterized by vigorous exertion, as action, efforts, life, etc.: a strenuous afternoon of hunting. 2. demanding or requiring vigorous exertion; laborious: To think deeply is a strenuous task. 3. vigorous, energetic, or zealously active: a strenuous person; a strenuous intellect.

Third one.

Sorry to say, Guns, all his articles are in North America.

Ms, you have had many chances, and done nothing with any. Do something there first.

Rex, you've already got two of those, both with serious problems of the same nature. Be a good idea to fix those first. Far as I know, none of these ones done by Brian are "undeveloped" at all anyway.

Lordganon (talk) 05:41, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I know what stenuously means. I was asking what you were trying to say, as I didn't quite understand your phrasing. Mscoree (talk) 23:58, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

He means that he doesn't want you to adopt an article, because you haven't proved to be a plausible editor who works well with others. 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:03, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Or someone who, you know, actually finishes things. Lordganon (talk) 11:33, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

So is that an no for the ones I asked for? I only want to take care of the articles. I haven't "quit trying", I've been actively working in 1983 for some time now. And it's not really stenuous. I only asked for three articles where as Imp claimed all of them at one point. Is there no wait I can be allowed to have these? Mscoree (talk) 02:02, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps after you grad your current ones.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:05, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Two of my articles are curently up for consideration, but that isn't going very well. Mscoree (talk) 22:22, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Because there are serious and general objections to most of it. If I write a page called the "Global World Empire" that controls all of North America, that doesn't make it a complete article in any sense of the word.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:33, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Not getting any of them until the others are done. Same principle as the other ones you tried to acquire.

As for Imp, I suspect that was more a joke than anything.

Lordganon (talk) 10:37, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Doomsday 'Nearer My God to Be' video

Hey, Ted Turner's video of the US military band playing 'Nearer My God to Be' just surfaced. I don't know if anyone wants to add it to the timeline or what. It is his planned Doomsday copy.

http://news.yahoo.com/former-cnn-intern-unearths-the-network-s-doomsday-video-221602860.html;_ylt=A0LEVxaGBa9U9pgAu.hx.9w4

Daeseunglim (talk)

...Would be something to add to the CNN article. Lordganon (talk) 15:11, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Interstate 80

Interstate 80 stretched from NYC to San Fransisco and was constructed prior to Doomsday. I know major sections of it would be severely deteriorated, and the parts east of Susquehanna, most likely abandoned. But woul it be possible, if the NAU spread further, for I-80 to be redeveloped as a transnational highway to connect US survivor states?

As far as I know, it avoids major cities except NYC, Reno, Salt Lake City, Chicago, and SF. Daeseunglim (talk)

Not really - the "power" centers and population centers are not along it. Lordganon (talk) 18:08, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I more meant near it, except for NYC, SF, and possibly Reno. But could it be turned into a connection route for the rest of the USA? Daeseunglim (talk)

...Reno was not hit.

Parts of 80 would be useful, but much would not. Only one of the stronger states lies on it, and most of the ones that do are already NAU or aligned in that direction.

Lordganon (talk) 09:49, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Reunification

What is going on with PA reunification? It seemed like people wanted it, but I haven't seen anything new. Personally for my nation, I don't think they would want to be annex/absorbed by a larger nation. I know the national situation isn't ideal, but the people in my area are very independent, and would be proud that they survived almost three and a half decades on their own without electricity for the most part, and resorted to going back to the way of their ancestors with horse and buggy, farming by hand, and handcrafting stuff.

I am just curious, because for Reading to join, Susquehanna would almost have to join to link the nation with the western half. Would State College be the capital, and Reading the largest city? Also, would each of the current nations from a state in the overall reformed PA?

Too, would it be a stretch to say that economically, Reading replaced Philly, Gettysburg replaced Harrisburg, Warren/Meadville replacing Pittsburg, and Hazleton replacing Wilkes Barre/Scranton? And politically, would State College have replaced Harrisburg?

Also, I know I have I-80 utilizing former Route 93, and rail lines connecting with the rest of PA, but would it be possible, because of the nations having to unify a power grid, sanitation, high levels of income inequality (if Susquehanna joined, it is much poorer than the rest of the state), military and law enforcement unification, as well as a formation of a national government and reorganizing the current governments as state governments.

Also, it there the willpower to? I know Susquehanna is more on the fence, and right now would probably say no, although that may change. It seems Reading and State College are looking to reunify, but it seems like NP is drifting towards Canada and the UC, while Gettysburg is drifting toward Virginia and the EAA.

Also, there are the differences politically. Overall it seems western and northern PA is more conservative, while Reading is more liberal, that may cause issues as the liberals don't want to be reduced by joining a conservative nation.

Not to mention even if State College was the capital city, they would need to build infrastructure, etc.

Overall, it would be very expensive after everything is completed. And would nations like Canada, Virginia, Kentucky, and Delmarva, who would need to be involved want such a large nation being formed?

Just some of my thoughts... Sorry it is so long. Daeseunglim (talk)

There was editors in favor of it, and I'm sure some still are. The plausibility of it, more debatable. More or less the reasons you indicate. If for no other reason than none of the city-states would agree on a capital, etc.

Most likely capital would be SC, given its better claims to legitimacy, though Reading would not be largest.

Would have to be something federal between the PA nations. Not unitary.

Not a stretch.

You don't have rail lines, imo. Roads is pushing it. Merging all those things would be at best difficult.

Correct picture, though even Reading and SC doing it is not on the books right now.

Correct political views.

No, they would not need to be.

Lordganon (talk) 15:02, March 5, 2015 (UTC)

Actually there are two rail lines that run through the area. Both were built prior to Doomsday and are very active in otl. One runs along the north side of the Susquehanna, the other runs along the south side, but then branches into Hazleton. I am just running off the assumption that some iron was rolled as rail lines and used to repair any damage over time. The roadways have fallen into disrepair due to the lack of major auto traffic. Most roads are gravel, only a few (Route 11, I-80 primarily) are paved. Some in Hazleton are paved as well. Daeseunglim (talk)

...Read that again, Dae. Road and Rails between states, as you first noted. Not that. Lordganon (talk) 14:45, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, are you talking about the roads and rail between the nations? Daeseunglim (talk)

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! =) Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about. Lordganon (talk) 10:30, March 17, 2015 (UTC)

2010 FIFA World Cup

Does anyone know who's the current caretaker of this article? I just want to ask permission to clean up the tables and the results of this page. Thanks in advance. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 09:46, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, power to you. Lordganon (talk) 11:55, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

UEFA Euro 2011/2012?

Since I'm already on a bit of a roll when it comes to football competitions in Doomsday, I've been thinking about writing up an article for a new UEFA Euro in TTL. This will probably be in either 2011 or 2012, and although I'm currently leaning towards a 2012 tournament date, this can be subject to change depending on arguments for or against. Also, who could be the host country? Choices for me right now are Celtic Alliance (although I don't know if that's all right since they just finished hosting the World Cup in TTL one or two years ago), Alpine Confederation, Nordic Union, and maybe Prussia. Replies and suggestions are appreciated.

Godfrey Raphael (talk) 06:44, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

For me I am thinking maybe 2013 based, which could also be a qualifier for the 2014 FIFA World Cup. Matt121 ??? Matt125 (Talk) 05:05, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Qualifying would be different. Has been for all the other events. Heck, the last World Cup was done like otl with regards to qualifying.

2012 would be most realistic.

Host... Not the Celts. Nordic Union would be busy with Olympics, etc, so I can't see that either.

Alpines aren't really trying for anything right now - and Prussia is, in a big way. They want the 2020 games pretty bad, imo.

So, despite opposition from the Nordics... I'd go with Prussia.

Lordganon (talk) 11:15, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Also, on a related note, what about the Champions League (or whatever its name was back in 1983)? Would it still be active after Doomsday? Would anyone want to compete in one after Doomsday? Or will they just let it slide into the pages of history? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 14:22, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Sometime after the mid-1990s, certainly possible. Lordganon (talk) 11:28, April 18, 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, LG, but I'm a little confused there. What do you mean by what is certainly possible? Is it that the Champions League could be resurrected after the mid-90s, or is it another thing? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 06:33, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

Also, which country could host Euro 2016? With the tournament already just months away, I'm looking to create the tournament here also. Any ideas on possible hosts? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 10:43, January 2, 2016 (UTC)

Switzerland

What happenedto switzerland? I don't see it. Tao64 (talk) 22:00, May 6, 2015 (UTC)

It's part of the Alpine Confederation. Daeseunglim (talk)

Economy and Currency

Most of the world would be unable to mint their own currency. It seems like there are too many nations with a "national currency". In otl many poor, third world nations (like most of the world in ATL) use a foreign nation's currency.

Also, more than likely, wouldn't the ANZC dollar replace the US dollar around the world, or would the SAC Real? Or would it be more regional, like Mexican Peso and Canadian Dollar for NA (Except ANZC states, and the MSA), SAC Real for SA, NU Krone for Europe, WAU currency for Africa, and an assortment for Asia? Daeseunglim (talk)

Not many such nations actually do that otl, and that's only when either it makes more sense to use the US dollar (Bahamas, Caribbean states, etc) or their own currency collapsed, like Zimbabwe.

Neither one of those things would apply here.

It's also far easier to make a currency than you think. Use would be very little beyond their region, but it does actually make sense for these little states to have them.

Currencies are probably going to be more regional, true. Overall, the most like the US Dollar otl would be the ANZC dollar.

Lordganon (talk) 10:29, May 14, 2015 (UTC)

Should Susquehanna have its own currency then? Daeseunglim (talk)

Would be up to you. As the article stands right now, with how you have it written, probably not. Lordganon (talk) 07:11, May 15, 2015 (UTC)

Nitpick

There is an inconsistency on the North Penn page. At the top it says Meadville is the largest city. In the article under Culture it says that Warren is. Just letting someone know.

"Warren, the largest city in North Pennsylvania has recently become a very active, bustling city once more as more and more residents move in from other areas, sometimes from State College or north-east Ohio."

Daeseunglim (talk)

Fixed - though you should have brought that up on its talk page, imo. Lordganon (talk) 07:10, May 15, 2015 (UTC)

US Congress

Was all of congress in session on Doomsday? I cannot find any information on any pages here giving concrete yes or no answers. Daeseunglim (talk)

In session until mid-November of 1983 otl. So... yes. Lordganon (talk) 16:59, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Nukes

I was thinking about this: Would any American survivor actually have any access to nuclear weapons? Most of the American land based arsenal was nuclear tipped Minuteman, Peacekeeper ICBM's, and bomber based weapons. The USSR was quite thorough in their bombardment. Unless nukes have been developed since Doomsday, I seriously doubt any would have been accessible.

Sea based Trident nukes may be a possibility, but I believe only the ANZC recovered any of the submarines that would have carried them. Daeseunglim (talk)

Sea based nuclear weaponry would not have returned to the US.

Imo, anything that wasn't launched or destroyed was reclaimed by the ANZC.

        Centriflag   Lies are all I have. Lies and vaudeville.  01:26, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

The ANZC got most, if not all, of the intact naval nukes. Not impossible for Delmarva or Victoria to have gotten a few more of these, but... unlikely.

ICBMs, while some may be intact down there, are sealed from above.

Air based... it's not impossible that some state had a stroke of luck, but unlikely. You'd either need a lucky shot by a nuke on a base (either missing their storage, or not going off) or a bomber with one on board going down in the area. Don't see them happening.

Lordganon (talk) 16:55, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

The Film

Should there be a nod to the film 'The Man who Saved the World' on the article page? (If not, this mention could serve the purpose on this talk page.) Jackiespeel (talk) 16:05, July 6, 2015 (UTC)


Poato Chip  industry of  Abborostk.

I know that abbortsk county grows the largest poato crop in maine and possably the largest in new england. I am think of making an article saying that abosrk has a few small company that make poato chips the old fanshion kettel way.  The market of the abosrtsk poato chips companiie oringaly sold only domesticall then the market expaned into the rest of new england. Todday aborosk poato chips can purchansed many united cominties  meamber states

Goldwind, this post is wrong in so many ways!  First, it should be under proposals. Second, the spelling is indescribable!  Third, grammatically in is reprehensible. And finally, you did not sign it. If I did not know better, I'd classify this as vandalism or something.
There! I played the "bad" cop, giving Ganon a break. lol --SouthWriter (talk) 02:52, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Toledo and Tennesee

Toeldo is going to have an elcetion this year. The cruent persidnet has ment her term limt. So I will have her vice run on the liberla ticket. I will  have Wade Kapszukiewicz  run on the democrat. I need a suggesion for the canditne for the labor party. I am think that during the eceltion of 2018  the liberla vote gets so split that Toledo get's it first conversit preisdent

Also the East Tennesse page said that it Federate with nebiors in 2013.  It looks Brain D left the  site the republic of tensse page never got made. If nobody ojects i palan to sumbit an adoption request

Colonel Stanislav Petrov

His death (in May this year) has just been announced. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:53, September 19, 2017 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelinesfor more information on this process). {C {C

Georg I of Prussia

I am interested in creating a article for the King of Prussia, the fictional son of King Christian I (or Christian-Sigismund). I would like to explore into the Prussian Royal Family, including Georg's mother, wife, and children. DasBull$

Slovakia

With the destruction of the world, I believe that a Slovak survivor state has a possibility of existence...DasBull$ (talk) 03:51, July 24, 2018 (UTC)

Montenegro

Following the dissolution of Serbia in the Second Yugoslav War, I think that Croatia and Bosnia would not allow Macedonia to take almost all of Serbia and so I think that a puppet buffer state should be established. DasBull$ (talk) 00:14, July 17, 2018 (UTC)

Alexander I of Macedonia

Would it be okay that I could add a page for the King of Macedonia? DasBull$ (talk) 22:42, April 21, 2018 (UTC)

Camp Elphinstone

I live in the area which is american victoria OTL. I particpate in a program where youth from Tacoma Go up to Canada during september and march. Doomsday seems to fall on the last day of the 1983 september trip. My suggestion is that I use this setting as the origin story for a character that i would use a major player in Pacific-North American politics. I have more that I'd like to do but for now I'm doing this. Thanks --User: ClockworkHugo 19:14, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

Iceland

Obsolete article resurrected by Arstar. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question concerning this article, who currently is the caretaker? I ask because amongst my other work I have been studying up on Iceland out of curiosity and feel I could flesh this out more so it would be realistic. However, I don't wish to intrude on someone else's project. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 15:43, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

I believe it is Arstar. I think if you ask though he would be willing to let you takeover. I do believe he is trying to shorten his list of proposals. Mitro 19:32, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I spoke with him and he gave me the okay to move forward.--Fxgentleman 03:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thought I'd leave this note here - that I left on its talk page quite some time ago - but the strike list on this article isn't plausible. Lordganon 07:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

This page has been sitting here for over a year, and I handed it over to Fx a while back. Is it at least stub suitable, or should it be obsolete? Arstar 07:31, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

No in both cases. There are major issues with it so we cannot graduate it in any form, yet, it is an article on an established nation, so we cannot mark it as obsolete. Lordganon 07:34, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I am still working on the article and intend to complete it along with Greenland. The only issue I am aware of as of this date which was raised had to do with the strike zones I selected. The areas I selected would have been legitimate and logical military targets of a Soviet attack: NAS Keflavik, the Keflavik Airport, and the Distant Early Warning (DEW) radar stations located in Sangerdi and Hofn.

Although the Doomsday scenario does revolve around a Soviet attack based on the assumption they are under a sudden assault, there is nothing to indicate the Soviets would not have followed up with bombers in a secondary attack on targets. The DEW radar system was designed to detect such incoming bombers. This would make it a target by the USSR. Although this aspect of the war to the best of my knowledge has not been explored in any great way, it was established in the history of Victoria that coastal Canada came under attack by Soviet bombers and they were shot down.

The destruction of DEW radar stations in Greenland and Iceland coupled with the effects produced by the HANEs over the continental US would help to punch holes in the network and leave North America vulnerable to any bomber attacks from that direction. I can not explain why other writers never elaborated on the fate of DEW sites in the US, Canada, and the Faroe Islands. It may have been a simple oversight given how many areas there are to cover. The article on Alaska speaks to multiple attacks on the Aleutian Island chain against military targets. Although it did not specifically clarify the exact targets, there were DEW stations in the islands which almost certainly would have been among sites hit. --Fxgentleman 16:33, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Except for the fact that not a single part of the DEW network was in range of the HANE blasts. By 2,500 miles, at least.

Not a single one of these sites was hit, anywhere. To hit a detection site after its job has been accomplished holds absolutely no point. We've never elaborated about the bombers because whether a site is hit by one or a ICBM doesn't really matter.

And the Alaska article is not referring to them, either. Why? Because those stations in the Aleuts had all been closed in 1969. What it would be referring to is Cold Bay Air Force Station, and likely Unalaska as well.

So, as stated: They were not hit, anywhere.

Lordganon 17:12, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected regarding the stations in the Aleutians. The sources I read gave me the impression they were open in 1983. I went back and checked and you are correct. You are also correct that the DEW system ran across the northern border of Canada and Alaska. I was thinking of the Pine Tree Line and the Mid Canada Line which I mistakenly lumped in with the DEW network. It was these two that I was thinking of when I made a reference to the HANE since some of their stations would fall under the EMP line. So my error on those points.

However, could you elaborate further why you think DEW sites would not be hit?

The DEW radar stations were designed to detect bomber(s) with a certainty of at least 99.9% that by the time they crossed the line the bomber(s) location, track direction, and time of detection had been ascertained and transmitted to NORAD. Once the last of the bombers passed the line then yes, you would be correct that the station's purpose has thus been served and to strike it would be pointless because what it was created to detect has already gone through. The question I would have to ask is since the bombers would have to be launched from the USSR and pass over the Polar Cap to reach Canada and the US how long would they take to reach the radar line?

Lets hypothesize for a moment. We know the Soviets received the warning at about 3:40 GMT+3 and launched their ICBMs roughly five minutes later. Since I don't know how long it would take to scramble Soviet bombers lets say hypothetically the first bombers begin scrambling at the same point the missiles are being launched and are airborne roughly ten minutes later or 3:50 GMT+3. At this point we have different groups of bombers inbound. I suggested the radar sites in Iceland were hit at about 4:05 GMT+3. I do not know how long it takes a bomber to leave its base and reach the radar line. But I don't believe that all the bombers would have already reached and over flown the radar line by that time. So logically until that last bomber goes over their existence creates a viable threat to the effectiveness of the Soviet bombers. Thus an early attack on some or all the stations would be a reasonable action on the part of the Soviets. My suggestion is this, I can reduce the attacks to missiles carrying conventional explosive warheads given they are small targets. This would serve the purpose of neutralizing the target while leaving a insignificant footprint on the area. What do you think, I am open to thoughts?--Fxgentleman 00:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I have always understood that this scenario was basically an accidental war fought long-distance by ICBMs and some SLBMs. If there had been scrambled bombers, they would have been sent out by both the USA and the USSR, and perhaps many NATO and some Warsaw Pact nations as well. All of this means planes in place to shoot down each other, and perhaps a few incoming ICBMs and SLBMs. The accidental war would have been over the Arals and Canada as Bombers met each other. We don't have this in any of our story lines. There is some of it, but not over the lower 48 states. The damage was done by the first strike almost exclusively, as I interpret it. There may have been waves, but as I understand it, it was mostly over in a few hours (except for border wars such as that in Alaska). Introducing bombers is too much for the time line as we have it to absorb, in my opinion. SouthWriter 05:24, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Having reviewed and considered South's comments I have gone ahead and removed any mention of the narrative regarding the DEW stations. I have to say though it is indeed very confusing from my point of view. I agree with South in that I always subscribed to the theory of how the war evolved, sudden rather than planned using just missiles in the US and Canada. The Victoria article when I read it a time ago had changed my thoughts regarding the whole business since we now had bombers flying in from Russia to attack. I just took it on faith it was simply another part of the story which had never been addressed. Under those conditions I felt DEW stations could not be ignored for the reasons I addressed earlier since they would just be to much of a threat for the Soviets to not strike. Hopefully, sometime in the future, another writer will take up the challenge of addressing the bomber aspect of what occured so we can square that part of the war. --Fxgentleman 06:39, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Basically, Fx, it's what you said in all of that: By the time the bombers arrive at the line, everything (for all purposes) is known. Their existence, and a lot of the details, would already be known by the destruction of any of them could occur. I figure there'd be a few minutes delay with the bomber launches, but it still stands. Destroying them, in this regard, really doesn't accomplish much of anything.

And, too, the radiation and EMP from such blasts would screw up any future waves a fair amount.

By the time the bombers get to anywhere that they can be harmed, the EMP and many ICBMs have gone off, crippling a lot of them. Same goes for their adversaries, and most people to whom the data would mean much of anything.

It's really a waste, at best. Largely, entirely ineffective. They know about them the entire time, so there is no point in destroying them.

As for Victoria.... really, those ones would have likely flown over the edges of the continent, and survived the EMP, etc. like that. To assume that the bombers would all fly straight is a little off, in my opinion.

Past that, as South said.

Lordganon 10:10, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

One of the things I learned during my recent research was in 1983 there was an active discussion on going about revamping the entire DEW radar line. I was surprised in my reading to find out how bad a shape the network was actually in, reports describing it as decrept. Soviet bombers could fly under 10k feet and avoid it. Apparently the Soviets had a far better and more effective network to stop US bombers. The Reagan administration was discussing as of 4/83 of spending $2 billion to revamp the entire network and trying to force Canada to cover part of the cost. This data was part of the reason my thoughts were finally swayed. Based on all these points, Soviet bombers would have had no real concerns. Nice to find out how well we were protected in 1983. --Fxgentleman 15:31, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

The Former Beatles

I started an article on the actives of the Former Beatles(Paul, Ringo,George) following the 1983 Doomsday Event. I hope to finish it soon. Is this an acceptable topic to write about? If not please let me know. (Jer1818)

I've moved this section from the archive page to this one. Let's see where the page goes, since for now it's just a recap of the OTL biographies up to 1983. Benkarnell 04:56, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
Welcome, Jer! I've made a few comments on the article's talk page. BrianD 06:49, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
I updated Paul's and Ringo's Postdoomsday activities...read them and let me know what you think Jer1818 22:16, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Ok to graduate?--Smoggy80 14:59, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

No. It's definitely not done. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ganon's assessment on the talk page, Paul McCartney's demise must be mentioned in order for the article to be complete. SouthWriter 04:17, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Something on John's grave, and maybe even Yoko and/or Pete Best would be nice too. Lordganon 08:08, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Jer1818, are you still there? Just a little bit more and this can be graduated. @Ganon, though John was cremated, and his ashes scattered in Central Park, a memorial was erected -- dedicated in 1985. The memorial was a gift from Naples, Italy. More info on this would need to be gathered (I have only been to Wikipedia), but I suspect that this probably didn't get built.

Wikipedia only says Ono continued to live at the Dakota, across the street from Central Park. If she was home in 1983, she probably did not escape. Given her active career, though, she would be a good one to bring through the wreckage if possible.

On the other hand, Pete Best, the Beatles first drummer, had been working as a civil servant in around 15 years in Liverpool when the bombs fell. He got back into music in 1988 in our time line, but could have become popular sooner in this time line. He is known to have been a fan of the Beatle's music though the group apparently did not treat him well after his being replaced with Ringo Starr. I'm for him becoming one of the Celtic Alliance's formost musicians if it could be worked in to the time line.

~South

Well, it was only actually part of the memorial that was from Naples. Yoko and the city did actually start the project in 1981, and "completed" it sometime before the blasts - it was redone in 1984, and the dedication in 1985 was very much a re-dedication, for all purposes. None seems to have been done previously, yet it had obviously been open before that.

Yoko was recording parts of several albums at the time - and she did record in NYC.

Best is a bit of a dilemma - he was in Liverpool working for a number of years, but at some point between 1963 and 1988, he became the training manager for the entire regional division of England, meaning his job likely moved to St Helens, east of Liverpool. Seems that he still lived in Liverpool, but... nothing for sure, there, really.

Lordganon 15:00, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Would there be any objections to putting this up for adoption? Lordganon (talk) 10:00, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Adoption tag added. Lordganon (talk) 06:08, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Issaquah-Snoqualmie

I made an article stub for a survivor community in the Cascades near where I live. The geography of the area forms a pretty protected valley in Issaquah (It's located between two mountains and home construction on those mountains had yet to begin in earnest in 1983 - they arrived as a result of the Microsoft boom. This also means that the population would be smaller than in OTL, since Issaquah's growth spurt didn't happen until this past decade.) There are a lot of highlands and whatnot in Issaquah proper to protect the city from the shockwaves 25 miles away in Seattle, although some radiation would probably occur there too.

Snoqualmie itself is located further up the mountains, near the town of North Bend. Don't worry, I'm not trying to turn North Bend into a massive empire like *cough* certain people did, but its protected up in the mountains and is far enough away from Seattle to suggest that it would have survived almost completely intact. I propose Issaquah-Snoqualmie as a minor conurbation of small communities stretching through the Snoqualmie pass from up in the mountains to the foothills. Pasco is pretty far from this area but likely enjoys healthy trade with Issaquah-Snoqualmie thanks to their outposts in central Washington (Ellensburg), as is established in canon. Again, to reiterate, I'm not trying to transform the Issaquah-North Bend corridor into a mighty Cascade empire - it would be a self-sufficient, hectic and maybe even wild-west style survivor town in most of the 1980's saddled with refugees from the Seattle/Bellevue area.

On the note of Victoria, I doubt that at least until the mid-2000's or even now, they would have bothered crossing an irradiated wasteland to get to Issaquah, even though the communities between Issaquah and Snoqualmie technically fall within their claimed territory.

Issaquah, culturally, was much more of a rural and exoburban city in the 1980's, even though today it's full of rich assholes (My personal bias. Fuck those guys.)

KingSweden 19:53, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, looking at the much more zoomed in map on the Victoria History article itself I think it could work in some form. Issaquah is on the border line, and the other community is definitely outside of it. Though, that map is a little old, so.... Definitely could have lived through the blasts, etc. mind - radiation would have went to sea. Oer, thoughts? Lordganon 22:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've got no problems. Victoria is too busy with the Olympia and Aberdeen areas and bringing the newly aquired south into the fold, along with establishing a border with Astoria to worry about some small mountain towns.Oerwinde 09:54, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

So, what's the plan for this one, guys? King, are you planning on doing anything with it? Lordganon 22:45, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Are there any objections to making this a stub?Arstar 22:43, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. There is no reason at all to even consider it at this time. The article is far from done, and unlike the stubs, has entire sections blank. Lordganon 09:39, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

This is a pretty possible article but not an entirely necessary one at the end, and hasn't been touched in years so what should we do? Given the presence of other large nation-states in the area it seems more likely than not that at this time it would be a part of one nation or another. Arstar talk 03:20, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

...That, and the region in question is part of the area of Victoria on its map. Hmmm... new angle... state annexed by Victoria, I guess? Would mean mostly just changing the tenses and adding a couple lines. Very doable. Lordganon (talk) 12:57, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

Superior Election Articles

Though created by an anon, they allegedly follow canon and were originally red linked. Mitro 17:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

The first two have no basis in canon at all - virtually no reference to numbers and political positions of the two parties or the like with the congress of Superior exist for that era that actually indicate things one way or the other like this. The independent numbers are.... not possible, either. The 1994 one is the only one with some actual accuracy as it currently stands, though even it has to be massively re-written. Lordganon 20:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Well I think we should mark the first two obsolete and put the last up for adoption. Any objections? Mitro 18:31, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention to the newsbits and edits with Superior I've been doing lately, but I'm adopting these articles, and am going to be adding many more of them. Lordganon 00:11, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

President ones first, then congress, then governors. Lalalala.... 07:15, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

All right, I believe I'm done with the Presidential elections. The 2012 one is ongoing, obviously, but should be graduated too, I think.

Any objections to their graduation?

Lordganon 14:46, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

All right, they've been graduated. Lordganon 23:00, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Arstar, why on earth did you do that? The articles that I asked about were graduated months ago. Lordganon 11:17, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Arstar: This is now the second time that you've done that. The articles here are proposals and the ones I asked about, as I already told you, were graduated months ago. Lordganon 01:14, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

What's the story on these? Ganon says they're graduated, but they're still have proposal templates on them? SouthWriter 02:29, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

There was several presidential election articles here that were graduated back in October. Arstar's missed that a few times, despite being told about it point-blank, lol. Lordganon 14:35, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Taccoa, CSA

Article by South. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

I've worked on a few paragraphs. Let me know what you think. SouthWriter 01:46, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

South, you still working on this? BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Brian, since I am no good at creating fictional characters, would you mind adding to this article. You can use the characters that you created for me earlier. I can't get into the evil mindset the way you can. The article can be an extension of your fascinating one on Athens. It will make a great addition to the post DD history of the tri-state area. SouthWriter 04:13, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Ok to graduate? --Smoggy80 15:05, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

It's not done yet - they periodically add to it. By the looks of things, it's about half done.

Norfolk Naval Base

Proposal by GB not previously put here. It's got..... major issues, but is indeed a start. Lordganon 11:18, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Is GB still the owner of this article? I have read through it and would like to take it over and expand it based on research I have been doing and also bring it into line with what I am doing for Delmarva. If anyone can let me know, thanks.--Fxgentleman 13:24, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he is. And you are definitely the person who should take over and do the article. Lordganon 14:27, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

What's the progress on this article? FX, you still want to take it over?BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

By my best guess, he's doing some research and will get to it when he's ready. Lordganon 05:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Ok to graduate as a stub?--Smoggy80 15:06, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

No. There's barely anything here, and what is here... well, it really isn't the case of what would happen. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

My apologies for not responding sooner regarding this. I had not thought to look at the discussion regarding this for awhile. It is still on my list of things to do and I have not forgotten it. Unfortunately, the duties of my job often take alot of my time and energy and things have been especially hectic since December 2011. If I don't appear to respond and there is a concern/question please just message me on my discussion page or email me and I will respond. Thanks and sorry.--Fxgentleman 22:45, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

More or less what I've been saying about your articles on this list, Fx. No worries, overall - I know some of us are very busy. Lordganon 09:11, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to gradding this? No remaining problems really pop up, it seems. Arstar (talk) 11:47, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yes - a lot of it simply couldn't happen. Beached ships, EMP-afflicted ships moving, etc. Most of the first half or so, really. Lordganon (talk) 03:12, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

Nitra

Survivor state in former Slovakia, by Jnjaycpa. Here's hoping that it doesn't end up like all of his other proposals and he actually works on it. Lordganon 08:00, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

....I suppose I'm not shocked to see this, but since I posted that there has only been two days that it has been edited, and virtually all the problems and blankness remain. Yet, Jnjaycpa has been around. So, what should we do with this? It is somewhat valid, so I'm really not of a mind to make it obsolete. Maybe make if ofa? Lordganon 22:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

OFA works for me. It would be good to see Jay return to it and finish it out. BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I have now marked it as open for adoption. Lordganon 01:01, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to request this article for adoption. Gatemonger 17:31, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

You don't need to ask if it has the banner. Power to you, Gate. Lordganon 01:41, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Has this been adopted?--Smoggy80 15:07, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Smog. Gate's clearly done so. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Since most of the history is written out, can we make this a stub? Arstar 21:47, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

There is a long list of objections to its current content on its talk page, and there's no mention of this anywhere but here. So I must object to the idea of making it a stub. Lordganon (talk) 23:41, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I have Gate's permission to adopt Nitra. Aside from those listed on the talk page, what else do I need to do to this article? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 09:29, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Denmark

Article by a new user for the Nordic Union member of Denmark. Currently, it is horribly formatted and filled with errors in general. Lordganon 05:00, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

Looks much better now, ok to graduate?--Smoggy80 15:09, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

There has been no improvements, nor is it complete. So, no. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Tanganyika

Article by me about post-Doomsday Tanganyika. Caeruleus 20:35, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:08, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

The idea that all of these states would have good relations with the Tanganyika remnant and join that organization makes no sense at all.

Same goes for the situation in most of these states. Have a good, hard, long look at where the economic power in the nation actually is, and where is actually poor: it's not how you show it, at all.

Lordganon 08:29, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

They have good relations with the Republic of Tanganyika for two reasons. First, they have to if they want access to their ports. With Mozambique having a civil war to the south and Kenya allying its export policy with that of Tanganyika's, if they want access to wider markets, they have to be nice to Tanganyika. Second, Tanganyika rejected its goal of reunification in 1990, which removed the immediate threat it presented to the newly indepedent states.
Tanganyika controls the ports, the commercial capital, most of the region's industry, and the only operational gold mine. At the very least, Tanganyika would be wealthiest because it could tax any exported through its territory. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. Caeruleus 16:32, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you have a good long look at your EAC article. It specifically states that unifying the area is its long-term goal. So no, it has not rejected it.

Ports are overrated whenever you write something. Note the big lake in the northeast? The population around that lake is self-sustaining, and not dependent on the rest of the area or those ports at all. Largest inland fishery in the world. There is no economic pressure that can be done to them, for they have no need to export.

Operational Gold mine? No gold mines were operational at the time. Most only opened in the late 1990s, and the others went out of business by the 1950s. And they would all be in the breakaway states, too.

Commercial Capital means little - and that city would be where most deaths and refugees occur. With exports and imports gone or sharply reduced, the "commercial" aspect goes.

So does industry, which is almost non-existant. Especially since until recently, there was basically nothing in that direction. Most of the exports and agriculture are from the breakaway states. Those on the lake are going to have a higher GNP ratio than Tan~ itself. It's also dependent on them for food, which you failed to notice.

Who's got the economic power? In some regards, Tan~ has some but overall? Not them, by a long shot.

And all that avoids entirely the aspect of relations in general. These states revolted. And you are trying to make them have good relations. That is ridiculous. A few of them, sure. But all? That is just not possible. Each and every time a nation has broken up, especially by force, not all of the parts have been friendly. And yet, you have them all loving each other. That's impossible and makes no sense whatsoever.

Lordganon 02:04, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Please read through the new updates. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:17, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement, though you missed the point about economic power, and population.

The states on the lake are not dependent on the rest of the nation, in any real way. The population overall fails to include any real number of deaths or refugees.

Lordganon 06:30, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

The economic power portions have been revised. The poulation is fine. It's 10 million less than OTL, which is more than enough to count for the number of deaths and refugees. Caeruleus 07:20, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No. Half the article reads like it is an article on the remnant, the other half reads like an article on the area. If it is overall, that may work as a population. But for the remnant, not in the least. By and large, it appears to be the remnant.

Lordganon 08:01, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's the total population of the entirety of Greater Tanganyika. Caeruleus 08:19, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Then you need to re-write the article. That is only about a quarter of what it actually says. Most of it is an article on The remnant. Lordganon 09:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

It progresses from talking about the remnant to the survivor states, while remaining somewhat focused on the remnant in the context of the other survivor states. After a certain point, "Tanganyika" stops referring to the remnant and begins referring to the region. I'll go through and change references to the region to Greater Tanganyika" in order to clarify that. Caeruleus 13:34, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better. Lordganon 19:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

with the improvements is it ok to graduate this article then?--Smoggy80 15:10, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

There are still problems with the "focus," so to speak, of the article. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I vote for graduation. This article demonstrates a sincere effort that should be recognized by the community as part of the time line. SouthWriter 03:19, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

And to that, I have to object. Half of the article is still on the nation-state, and half of it is on the former nation. As I said, there's a problem with the focus of the article. He's done work to improve it in that regard, but the problem has definitely persisted, and needs to be fixed prior to graduation. Lordganon 15:02, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Kenya

Article by me about Kenya. Caeruleus 19:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:06, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

That this remains intact while most of Africa collapses, despite the major drought just after Doomsday, makes no sense. Earlier on, you had a couple of the provinces go. And yet, then you had them re-join. That is not plausible.

Lordganon 08:33, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And, to add, there's several statements in it, such as "largest economy in East Africa" which are suspect, and probably not true at all. Lordganon 08:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

It's the largest economy in East Africa OTL and that would hold true here as well.
As for the drought, droughts don't necessarily cause a collapse of government. The only thing that is assured to happen is a higher death toll for the duration of the drought. During droughts, Kenya does need food aid, but it still produces enough to feed a majority of its population. At most, only a few million have ever needed food aid and, even without aid, the situation could still be handled by the government. Caeruleus 16:04, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, you don't make statements like that. Ever. And, for the record, it is very likely that they are not the largest economy. With the reformation and such that occurred in Ethiopia, it is likely that it, Mozambique, or Madagascar hold the title anyways. Especially given the economic aspects relied on in Kenya, which would have collapsed the economy quickly.

You'll note that I did not say it collapsed. A dictatorship, with a coup attempt barely a year prior, in a multi-ethnic - very multi-ethnic - state with regional divisions. Otl, with massive relief getting sent to them, half of the herds died, and massive amounts of crops. More than half the country is drought-prone. The blasts are on record as warming the earth slightly, making it a touch worse. And, the drought ran from 1983 until 1985, too, throughout all of East Africa. To boot, after that period there was massive floods to make the effect even worse.

http://worldvisionnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/horn-of-africa-drought-map.png

and

http://writingtowellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/horn-of-africa-drought-map-29-july.jpg

While the two maps are from modern droughts, they show the at-risk areas well, in combination. That has long been the same. Think about it.

You have a few million starving people. And no food to give them. Did you know that the average person is only three meals away from civil disobedience? Do the math. Atl, they are going to have trouble feeding the army. Good luck keeping stability like that.

Collapse outright? Not likely. Remain whole? That's crazy.

Lordganon 05:03, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I've made some changes. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement. But you fail to actually take the droughts into effect, at all. Lordganon 06:31, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

There's not much to be said about the droughts other than that they happened and had some effects. Caeruleus 07:15, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Not what I mean. You do not go into details about its effects, and mention it in passing, for the most part. Not only that, but a population 2 million lower, only? A fair portion of the area is constantly fought over, a few massive droughts happened, along with general chaos, and only two million lower than otl? Not plausible in any fashion.

Lordganon 08:05, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I made a minor adjustment to the population. Still, nothing really needs to really be elaborated on about the drought. It happened, there was a famine, and obviously some people died and/or suffered because of it, which contributed to political instability. What else would you like included? Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you've not gotten the point. You just mention it. It's like a non-event. That just does not work. Lordganon 09:42, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's a drought. They happen. It wasn't some seismic event. What happened and what it did are pretty basic. Do you want me to include specific information about what areas were affected and death tolls and such? Caeruleus 13:38, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A massive drought, causing many deaths and society-wide problems. And you just mention it. It's not a question of figures - though some sort of those is a must - but actually mentioning more than "it happened." Currently, you fail to do so. Lordganon 19:21, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better, but now you've made it sound like droughts never happen again. They will. Lordganon 21:57, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

How is it that there can be a blossoming of the Sahara in Egypt based on a proposed increase of rainfall by mere inches a year while insisting that the droughts and desertification in Kenya remain the same? I have been told that we cannot generally expect the weather to be predictable, but here, on the edge of the equatorial rainforest things remain the same!
There is no mention at all of this drought, or any since 1983 for that matter, on the Wikipedia page about Kenya. It should not be a requirement for such to be an article on this wiki either. I agree, droughts happen, and people cope. In the case of this drought, with no help from the USA in 1984, there would have been a few thousand more deaths - maybe even a million in the poorer regions. The people affected, though, are not those who would revolt after a few days. They live day by day any way, gladly receiving aid when it comes, coping in other ways when it doesn't.
Meanwhile, back in Nairobi, well away from the suffering, life goes on. The army might fight the neighbors who take advantage of the drought, but the government would at the same time reach out to the Indian Ocean community for aid (Malyasia, Indenesia, and Australia, especially) when the emergency of the famine developed.
This is a very good article, though it might be improved with mention of coping without US aid in the particular emergency. I am in favor of graduating it in spite of the lack of dealing with the drought. However, I would say more attention should be shown as to how the new connections with New Britain, Australia and New Zealand would come into play when droughts inevitably come. SouthWriter 18:18, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

South, the Sahara has almost nothing to do with the rainfall, and everything to do with redirecting the river partially.

Google "Kenya drought" and either "1983" or "1984." You'll find that there was a drought then that otl, effected 200,000 people greatly even with massive food imports. This drought is referred to as one of "the most severe resulting in loss of human life and livestock, heavy government expenditure to facilitate response and general high economic losses of unprecedented levels." Which, otl, was followed by massive flooding in 1985. These droughts, btw, hit the region every few years, and especially hard every ten years or so - in 1974, 1984, 1994, and 2004, otl. These hit the entire region. 50-75% of cattle died before food aid came otl - and here, it's not coming. There was severe food shortages, too. This drought has even been called the first in the last century by some. Food crops were 50%, in the case of corn, to 70%, in the case of wheat, lost to it in Kenya. This is a drought that killed three million people in the region. Millions in Kenya were dependent on food imports to survive. And here, there isn't any.

Ever hear the addage "The average person is three meals away from civil unrest?" Think about it. The death toll will be on a disturbing level in this case.

Again, no contact with the outside world during the drought. Nor could they help at all, anyways.

And, the climate changes - wetter, etc. - are unlikely to have much impact here overall. Changes otl aren't, so why would this? And, changes here are not happening in the first few years, either. so there's no impact form them.

So, I say again: The article mentions the drought in passing. Yet, this drought has such an impact, that it needs to actually be dealt with. Caer is failing entirely in that regard.

Lordganon 05:49, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

First, I did do a search for the 1984 drought, and it is seen as a border issue. The fact that the Wikipedia article does not even mention it should be taken as a hint that the Kenyans indeed adjust to these seasonal emergencies. In fact, the actions of President Moi, not the US government, are what mitigated the effects of the drought and accompanying famine. Since trade with the US had vanished in TTL, agreements with nations in the southern hemisphere would have been used instead. This response was touted as a model for famine relief. Far from causing conditions for revolt, the Kenyan government was able to mitigate the situation getting the population through.
I know this is counter to my suggestions above, for they were just suggestions lacking LG's superior investigative abilities. I would say that Caer should indeed mention the effort since it even if the Wikipedia article in our day did not. It enhances the article to point out the effectiveness of the Moi regime - no matter where it was able to get outside help. If nothing else, help would be available from surplus in Malaysia and Indonesia (sources of year-long exports to the US and other nations of the north pre-DD).
One more thing, the deaths in this drought measured two million in the region, not in Kenya. The losses to Kenya were only 200,000 in its northwestern sector. In a nation of 30,000,000 that is hardly a disaster that would topple a strong regime like the one in Kenya.
Long story short, I agree that the drought should be 'dealt with,' but not that it is essential in validating the article. The drought would not, in my opinion, have altered the history of Kenya in this time line any more than it would have int our time line. SouthWriter 20:24, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, South, it is not mentioned in the Kenya article because it was not an issue there otl. However, this is not otl.

They imported millions of tons of food. Millions. That is why they were barely effected otl. Not because the government or the people was able to adjust to anything. But because unlike their neighbors, they were able to import massive amounts of food. Which is not happening here.

You say that it was the actions of the President that "mitigated the effects of the drought and accompanying famine." While that is true, you also missed what he did. He imported food. Which, as established, is not happening.

Again: They have no contact with the outside world until after the drought is long over. At best, it will be 1986 before it is restored between this area and the SAC/ANZC to any degree. And the entire matter is long gone by then.

I said in the region three million died otl. Not in Kenya. Most of those were in Ethiopia, which got no imports, and only a small amount of aid. Here, atl, Kenya gets no food imports, or aid. The impact will be worse. Far, far, worse. Half of crops in the country failed, and a large majority of the herds died off, otl, with imports of food and aid. Go from there.

So, we have millions dying. Which is a heck of a lot worse than otl. And as such, the history is drastically altered.

Caer has failed to deal with the drought itself in any degree, and it needs to be rectified before graduation.

Lordganon 23:27, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

I am keeping this civil, not going into addressing either of you in second person. As mentioned above, I believe there would be communication and trade with Malaysia and maybe even Indonesia, neither of which would have been embroiled in the politics in Australia or South America (neither of which had formed new alliances to any degree in 1984). Unless we are going to assume that geosynchronous satellites directly above were out of commission (see discussion at bottom of this page) and regular cables across the Indian Ocean were disrupted by by the bombs that hit one city in western Australia, then there is no reason why arrangements could not be made with the governments around the Indian Ocean for at least adequate aid, if not in the amount of the US sent in our time line.
I see that Indonesia had early contact with Australia and Malaysia but not with the rest of the world (Africa and South America). Malaysia seems a bit more stable than Indonesia because of its smaller population but lost a third of its land to tiny Brunei. So perhaps they would not have been quite as inclined to help an African nation. But I can't see the lack of contact in that direction as a reason. It is enough to lay out options with no need to be dogmatic on these things. This is a community effort and no one editor - not even an administrator - should have the last word on how a small African nation might have fared with the absence of the US in time of crisis. --SouthWriter 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Simple truth: as I have laid it out is the current fact. Not my opinion, or yours. You need to recognize that fact. You don't like it, fine. But as things stand, it is fact. You need to recognize that.

Past that....

To quote the ANZC history:

"Communications were restored with Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, and most of the Pacific island nations by Christmas of 1983"

Contact obvious

"....met with Indonesian President Suharto in February 1984...... He believed that Indonesia needed to move forward on the assumption that the Australia, New Zealand and Singapore markets would eventually bounce back to near pre-Doomsday levels"

Contact with Malaysia, Singapore, and Brunei

"In February, an unexpected radio message from North America came: the American President, Ronald Reagan, was alive, as was Vice President George Bush and several other staffers and cabinet members, and they were trying to find out who else was alive in this post-Doomsday world."

"No one had been able to establish contact with anyone outside the Mount Weather or Greenbrier regions, and certainly not from Canada, Japan nor Western Europe."

"The one contact other than Australia the U.S. had been able to establish was with Mexican military south of Mexico City; they learned that Mexico had survived Doomsday and was not only functioning but was apparently taking American survivors from the southwest border states."

"Bush arrived in Canberra on Air Force Two on May 6 from Auckland, greeted personally by Hawke only to be told that the RAAF lost contact with Air Force One."

Contact with American Remnants, and Mexico

And, from the Vatican, we have already established, somewhat, that contact between Mexico and the rest of Latin America is up by sometime in 1984. And that contact throughout the south, is, on some level, restored enough by April of 1987 to have most of the Southern Cardinals attend a conclave. Probably, sometime in late 1985 at the latest for contact.

Contact with rest of the Southernmost Hemisphere

Note, too, that this applies to areas from Senegal south in western Africa, and Mozambique south in the east - though, this could be made further north n the east, and probably will be. But it remains: contact and trade are restored with East Africa in the latter half of 1984 at best.

And guess what? The drought has already done its damage by then.

Your "aid" has no effect. The deaths have already happened.

As stated, Caer needs to actually deal with this. He barely mentions it. Yet, it happened. The problem here is pretty big, and obvious.

Lordganon 05:40, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

LG, nothing you say is fact until it is established as fact by the community of this TL. That goes for you and everyone else. Also, keep in mind that the issue of communication is under review with a majority of editors so far leaning towards changing it. If it is decided to change it, all the passages you've quoted will be invalidated. Caeruleus 05:55, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Me saying? What I have quoted is the current established fact. Until this article recognizes that or something else changes, there is no reason at all to graduate it.

And, as for the "review"? The info I quote invalidates the entire thing.

Lordganon 06:27, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

What LG has cited represents wide-spread utilization of communication in the southern hemisphere and even from the subtropical regions of the northern hemisphere. The communications from North America, though 'unexpected,' prove that they were operative via the communication satellites encircling the equator - one or two above Kenya, in fact. Furthermore, the fact that these particular incidents are mentioned only go to show the view point of the people involved (and the assumptions of the editors of the articles). Though the discussion is not in the "review" section, it does not mean that it is not an official process to which we need to pay serious attention.
The 'early warning systems' were well in place for the Kenyan government as the drought began with a failure of the "short rains" that began soon after DD (October - November, 1983). Since the government would be aware of the probable loss of the US and Europe via broadcast during the attacks if not after them, contingency plans would be made. Most of the yellow maize imported came from Thailand and the result of yellow maize being the main import caused those of means within the nation to ration other foodstuffs to compensate.
Without due consideration to the drought, though, the article does suffer from a loss of a good study in the alternatives the Kenyan government faced with a loss of both the US and European community. This is what this time line is all about. Though not directly affected by the nuclear war, the contacts that the Moi regime had were drastically reduced. And so, I agree that this article needs to include a paragraph of how the regime 'pulled this off' to remain stable. If that cannot be demonstrated, then the article needs to be revamped before graduation. SouthWriter 15:36, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

And now, we're off-topic. Sigh.....

Widespread? Contact in some form does not mean widespread, at all. The majority of this contact would be by ship, and minimal at best.

Actually South, they don't prove they were operative. Quite literally, there are only 4 places with any sort of contact in NA at that time - and that, with each other: Bush, Reagan, NORAD, and on a very low level the Wyoming remnant. Really, the word "unexpected" would much more so be due to their deaths having been expected. And those satellites would be unlikely - really, there are some EMP hardened sats up there, which both NORAD and the executives would have access on some degree to, though highly fractured by the EMP blasts and the ground/air bursts.

Bush and Reagan, having been airborne and in their EMP hardened planes, have functioning radios, at least to some degree. That's how they can be in contact. Between each other, it's pretty simple. Past that, the military satellites are still going to be functional at that point, at least to some degree. They would also have high-powered radios - though, their performance obviously hindered somewhat - along with, I'm sure, a few other toys we're not aware of.

NORAD is pretty obvious in itself, with the location, the story set up, and the radiation, etc. severely impacting things afterwards. But that is limited, too.

Got nothing for Wyoming, really. Where that is mentioned really needs something like "through NORAD" added to it, as it makes little sense otherwise. Proximity to NORAD, call it.

Really, those are quite reasonable. Contact between the four will be extremely sporadic, and static-filled, with little to no ability to reach beyond the continent. Sure, a few more sources may have heard them - but that means almost nothing, given codes, static, and that the further it gets, the more unintelligible it would be. That they talked to the ANZC at all through that atmosphere is a stretch, quite frankly.

Thailand. Something, as stated, only in contact with in mid to late 1984. And suffering somewhat in its own right.

No matter the plans put into place, you still have a massive food shortage. And no aid until it's more or less over, and even then in much smaller amounts than in otl. Millions will die.

As stated, my issue with this is that the drought gets a mention "in passing." Yet, it has so much more impact than that. Nor is it a "minor famine" like it says right now. It was more or less that otl - that it is going to be far worse here is a given. It's not so much the stability, in my mind, though that gets glanced over badly too, among other things that South has noted. As it stands, it's basically glanced over, being "swept under the rug," so to speak.

And that? We can definitely say is not right.

Lordganon 07:58, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Finland

Article by an anon. Only a single sentence, absolutely nothing else. Lordganon 14:34, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

No progress since I added this one. Yet, it's definitely an article to keep. Would there be any objections to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon 23:14, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Put up for adoption. Lordganon 01:05, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Adopted by Godfrey Raphael. Lordganon 01:28, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Has this been definitely been adopted? as it is still only one line?--Smoggy80 15:13, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it has definitely been adopted. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I put it up for adoption again. I simply can't work on this anymore. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 01:50, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hello, so I have decided to take on the task of becoming a care-taker for a Doomsday nation article. I see, from examples and those who have come before me, that this is a large task. Can somebody please give me a rough outline of what sould be included? So, History, Economy, Government, etc.?

Also, what are some current things in canon about Finland? My eventual goal is to work on Finland, then Iceland, then Sweden, and hopefully have some role in the Nordic Union. Obviously this is a bit far out, but what do we know about Finland right now, and what can I make up? Reximus55 (talk) 10:41, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Iceland is the project of another - but there is no Sweden article, so you could do that in the future.

Look at the Nordic Union, Karelia, and Soviet Karelia articles. You could glean quite a bit of history from those. Ignore the Åland article, most of it needs a great deal of work and is not remotely plausible.

Finland was not hit at DD. In the aftermath, Soviet troops fleeing chaos and detonations crossed the border, and were fought off.

Government, more or less like otl, with the parties somewhat up for debate. The Nordic Union has the president and PM of Finland listed on it - the next elections are the legislative elections in 2015, and the presidential elections in 2018. The president cannot run again, being in his second term. Parliament up to you, except the largest party is the Social Democratic Party of Finland.

Sauli Niinistö of Finland is the current President of the Nordic Union, elected in 2011 and up for re-election in 2014. Don't really have a backstory for him, but I've gone on the assumption that he was president of Finland before Martti Ahtisaari and was a member of Parliament and finance minister prior to that, so that'd be more or less his story.

Really, write something within those lines, and I'll advise you from there.

Lordganon (talk) 11:42, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

LG, I have tried to do some work with this page the past day. I fixed the coup issue. Any ideas/suggestions? So far, is it all on track to canon? Thanks! Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font>​ 10:26, February 1, 2014 (UTC)

Not even remotely "on track." Pretty much all of the stuff that there was problems with is still there, and more. Heck, you tried to change the NU article, even - not cool, and don't do it again - to match the bad content.

You've not really "fixed" anything, Rex.

As for ideas and suggestions... basically everything I had said on this page, a couple of posts up, before.

Lordganon (talk) 11:10, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so I am really at a loss. Would you mind re-stating what exactly needs to be fixed? Thanks, Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font>​ 09:34, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Again: more or less literally the same as I have posted in the past. Just look up the bloody page, Rex. Add that you don;t have it meshing with the NU article at all right now, and it needs to be. Lordganon (talk) 11:20, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

East African Community

An article by myself. Caeruleus 19:12, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

It is still ridiculously impossible. Simply put, it is not plausible that a bunch of breakaway states would agree to this when the major power is the one they split from militarily and the eventual goal of the organization is integration.

That is not plausible, at all. Some, maybe. But all, and many for reasons that make no sense locally? Not plausible.

And, you have no authority at all to include Zanzibar in this at all.

Lordganon 08:27, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And none of that changes with Kenya helping to "convince" them, either. Lordganon 08:30, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

The current goal of the organization is economic integration, which is desirable to all the states in the region. The coastal states want access to the resources of the inland states and the inland states need access to the ports of the coastal states for trade. The ultimate goal of political unification is far off and may never actually happen. Just because it's a stated goal does not mean that's the reason they joined or that they expect it to happen. Plus, the EAC is a regional embodiment of PanAfricanism, an ideology that is strong among the regional elite. Even if the organization is particularly popular, the political elite in several of these countries would push for membership, like with the OTL EAC and other regional supranational organizations in Africa. Caeruleus 16:18, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Really? Pan-Africanism? Do you have any idea at all how inflated that concept is? It would seem not. And, for the record, the political elite in the area otl do not support the concept - that will remain true here.

No. The stated goal of it, as it says on the article itself is economic and political integration. Which is precisely why many of the little states will avoid it like the plague. Little nation-states, joining a political organization whose eventual stated goal is political integration with a nation that they revolted from - that just doesn't work. At all.

Even without that being the stated goal, that is just not plausible. A few of the remnants, maybe. But all of them? That doesn't work, at all. Have a good look at that type of thing, overall, and you'll find that many of them cannot stand each other. Either they hate the remnant of the nation they revolted from, or one another. End result is the same. Which you have failed to understand or include, at all.

As already established, the inland states have no need for the coast, and vice-versa.

Lordganon 05:36, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I went through and made some changes. Any continued objections? Caeruleus 03:16, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you still fail to get the point about the states on the lakes - more so, Lake Victoria. They have little to no need for the coast, at all.

This also cannot graduate, sensibly, until the nations do.

Lordganon 06:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I edited the portion about the importance of the ports. If there's nothing else, this will graduate when the other articles do. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No, you removed it. That does not change the fact that they do not need them in any form, and that the article entirely fails to get that concept. Lordganon 09:50, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

The article isn't about the ports of East Africa. Since including them as a reason for Tanganyika's economic superiority was overstated, nothing else needs to be said about them once that portion was removed. Caeruleus 13:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

You frequently use words like "inevitable." While the port sections were removed, the article still reads like that is the reason for joining. At the very least, no motive is given. It also still sounds like economic reasons are why things are happening, which as shown is not. the case. Lordganon 19:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Economic reasons are why things are happening. Lowering trade barriers and increasing cooperation will result in accelerated economic growth in the region, regardless of whether or not the ports are particularly important. That's the principle reason most of these states are joining. There are other reasons, like security aid for Kagera and pro-reunification leanings for Ruvuma, but the economic advantages remain a major reason for membership. Caeruleus 18:46, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

You are not getting the point. It still reads like pressure is being applied, yet there is no pressure to apply. And, again, the use of words like "inevitable." Lordganon 01:21, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

The inevitable comment is made in specific reference to the future direction of the TFTA, not the EAC. Other than that, there are no references to pressure being applied. Caeruleus 03:26, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what that word is in reference to, at all. You use other words that mean the same blasted thing throughout, as well. The whole thing reeks of it. Lordganon 06:43, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. It doesn't reak of that, at all. Caeruleus 14:42, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Oblivious, as usual, then. You are continually referring to future things in a definite manner that would be speculation. That doesn't fly. Lordganon 01:11, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not. The only future things the article refers to are in the "Future Developments" section, which makes perfect sense. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about. Caeruleus 22:33, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Again, you're failing to get the point. You are referring to things as definite. Doesn't work, or make any sense, especially in the future developments section. Lordganon 07:20, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

This could work, Mark as obsolete until made more plausable?--Smoggy80 15:17, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

No, there's only small changes needed to it - which, as per usual, he's refused/declined to make. No need for that. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Faroe Islands

A proposal for the sub-unit of Denmark and member of the Nordic Union, by Brad30977. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Graduate as a stub?--Smoggy80 15:27, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Again, no content at all. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I am planning on adopting this page to get it up to stub quality. Arstar 22:14, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Then follow the protocol. Because declaring that certainly isn't. Lordganon (talk) 23:30, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Just as an FYI, I have recently adopted this page (through the proper protocol) :) Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font>​ 04:36, September 18, 2014 (UTC)

Republic of Iraq

Yank's proposal - it'd be with Fx and Caer as well, I figure - for the remnant state of the former Iraqi government. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Is anyone planing on working on this one? Arstar talk 20:04, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Fx and Caer have both said they are working on this one on several occasions. It will get done, when their schedules allow. Lordganon (talk) 06:53, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Coulee

An small nation between Victoria and Paso. By Enclavehunter

As I'm noted on the talk page for the page, this is not plausible. There is a whole section of history that you have missed of the region. Have a look at the Utah article.

What it amounts to is that this area is so close to Spokane, that the regime there would have destroyed it - especially since the dam would have been a target for them.

Lordganon 02:31, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I know. I changed it around to say it was an destroyed nation, does that still go against plausiblity. Enclavehunter 02:37, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think I fixed, does it still look like its talking about an surviving nation. Enclavehunter 15:28, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The history, not so much.

Th rest still should get toned down - really, knowledge of this state would only be known from the memories of those few who fled or managed to survive, and what explorers encounter at the site.

Also, somebody needs to find the site to document it. Pasco or the new USA would be the ones likely do it.

Lordganon 21:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Though the dam might be considered a good target for acquisition, it does not follow that the junta would be interested in it. The dam is over 100 miles down stream, 80 miles by air and by road it is about 88 miles, much of it on State Route 2. We know the junta has secured control of Spokane and Coeur d'Alene and would travel south to Lewiston and then into land controlled by Utah. They are said to "hold their own" against rivals, meaning they hunkered in until they needed resources. At that time, from what has been written, we know they headed south, not west. Lewiston is 106 miles south of Spokane, and en route to their big target: Salt Lake City (as per the "History of Utah" article).

This is not to say they would not expand west, but only to say that they need not have done so. The population near the Grand Coulee dam was not very big, and it had a good chance of surviving. I am not sure if the area would be a haven to refugees from the big cities, or if they would be able to support them, but it is no less plausible than many city-states that have survived. This is only my opinion, and not meant to challenge anyone's authority on these matters. This is a collaborative effort, and the community has not spoken on this situation. It could go either way as far as I'm concerned. I am just another voice in the wilderness. --SouthWriter 02:25, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

You've entirely missed that they did go as far west as to secure the Tri-City area fairly early on. They went even further west than this site, even.

And given that this is a good target, for multiple reasons, there's really no doubt that it would have been taken.

Lordganon 03:39, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

You're right, there was a presence in the Tri-City area, for a line says that the area was under that "nation's" control. The Tri-City area is far to the south; downstream, in fact from both I-90 (from the north) and Lewiston (from the east). Like I say, it could go either way, but there are limits to where the small army of Spokane could go.

Would these men, organized as they were for survival, actually want to take over the whole state? It is more likely that they would wish to seize what was easiest to get to with the most supplies they could plunder. Grand Coulee does not have much, but the Tri-City area was worth the trip, as were the twin cities of Lewiston and Clarkston (aka the city-state of Lewiston).

What are some of the multiple reasons for the taking of Coulee Dam? The water is down stream from Spokane which is on the river! The do not need the water. The EMP has made the electricity useless, so they would have a lot of work ahead of them to salvage it for that. If they were forward thinking enough, that may be a plan, but we see from the record that their main efforts went to the south to control people rather than rebuild renewable resources. These are warriors, not engineers.

Just saying. My opinions are only my own -- for what they are worth. Consider the options rather than making up your mind first. It adds to the creativity without destroying plausibility. --SouthWriter 05:02, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Th Tri-City area was wholly under their thumbs - as was basically all of eastern Washington. It's a far shorter trip to the area around the Dam than to these areas.

Coulee is worth raiding - and small enough that it wouldn't survive the experience.

Spokane is on record as wanting domination over all. The Dam is the largest one on the river system, by far, is a good position in general, has some functionality for power down the road (and possibly some small methods without actual electricity at the present, maybe like water wheels), better spot for agriculture, and a source of "workers" too. And they'll know its there, too. For that matter, it could even, in theory, be useful as a weapon (not that it would have made any difference, but it could have been)

Plus, it's just so close to Spokane that in general it would have been raided, at a minimum.

You can't say that they were "warriors," either.

Lordganon 07:51, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Good points, Ganon. It would be an excellent base of operation. With the water it was a good spot to support agriculture. But given their bent on conquest, I doubt they'd be setting up slave labor farms at such an early point. However, it was closer than any place they conquered apart from northern Idaho. As I wrote in the Lincoln (USA) article, the white supremest groups apparently worked together by the time of the Spokane War, but they could have been 'rivals' for a time, as the Utah article states. This only illustrates that there are numerous scenarios that could effect the time line. I am not sure if there is any record of the warlords' intentions, though. All the record has is what they did and who they controlled.

Nothing has been written beyond what I wrote in the Lincoln article concerning the rise of the Order and the Aryan Nation (using historical figures actually operating in history). Their stated purpose was to change "the region" into a bastion of white America. They knew that they could not control "all" of the nation. When the state of Lincoln was enlarged (first on the map and then in the text!) it incorporated what had been "Spokane" along the eastern Washington state line.

I borrowed the idea of "warriors" from the first paragraph of the "History of Utah" article and I used it in a figurative sense to make the point that rebuilding an hydro-electric plant was not something they would do. I am sorry if I confused anyone with the choice of words there. As survivalists, they could indeed be inventive and as warlords they were able to convince knowledgeable scientists to provide expertise under threat of great bodily harm. The History of Utah article states that they had early on developed alternative fuels to power their commandeered military vehicles.

Again, the dam would have had strategic significance if the long-range plan was to take the whole state of Washington, but the record shows that they instead chose to go south in an attempt to take the smaller state of Idaho instead. Long range plans changed even further as they dreamed of taking northern Utah. This delusion of grandeur was their downfall (though the resistance in Coeur d'Alene would probably have succeeded in time). Sure, we can add more gore and conquest to the time line, or we can go with what has been written and work around it, as Enclave originally envisioned. Though I have written in the greatest act of terrorism (1-1-1) and the greatest natural disaster ("Hugo" in eastern South Carolina), I remain an optimist.

We could call it an oversight on the junta's part, or perhaps they feared the contamination downstream of the nuclear blast over (or on) Fairchild AFB, but given all the varables, it is a possibility that the dam to the west was not a priority and never taken. The fact that the nuclear strike was between Spokane and Coulee, and very close to Spokane, is also a factor that needs to be considered. Given a choice, the warlords would expand away from, not across, the contaminated area in their "back yard."

That is enough of what I think. Are there any other opinions besides those of Ganon and myself out there? We'd love to hear from you. SouthWriter 15:53, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

The Supremacists, however, were not the only faction. You can add to that the militias in general from the region (truly, there is an insane number there, and not all of the racist type) remnants of the base, and the residents of Spokane.

Even the racist types would be survivalists, in this area.

The record shows that they went in all directions. Not just south.

Fairchild isn't close to the river. And it's southwest of the city. Nor would it's radiation have gone in a direction to interfere. Hell, it would have had that effect on them expanding in any southern direction, lol. But not this way.

There is absolutely no way that this could exist, still. It's a big, fat, target.

Lordganon 20:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

If as you say there are factions at home, then it would stand to reason for them to be fighting at home for supremacy. The "militias in general" in the region would not be the ones raping and pillaging small towns. It is already accepted canon that there was resistance but that the Order and the Aryan Nation had the edge and control of the Spokane region.

The recorded regions affected are the Lincoln, Pasco, Leavenworth, Lewiston, and southern Idaho on the way to Utah. Except for Lincoln all these places are indeed south of Spokane. Spokane is called a nation "in southeastern Washington" on the Washington article, and that it raided "as far south as the Great Salt Lake." There were "rumors of threats" as far away as Victoria, but no record of such advancement in that direction.

Okay, Ganon, you have had your say, and I have had mine. I say leave options open, you say it has to be the way you say it is. Let some one else have a word here. This is, after all a small city-state of recent consideration. SouthWriter 02:29, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Christ, South. You failed to note most of that, once again. And so much for "enough" of what you think.

These are anti-government militias - and they are from the area you claim that the supremacists came from. Moreover, it is not one group but several involved here. And arguing that they would magically stop at the borders of Idaho is crazy.

The simple fact is, the raiders destroyed a massive area - and this is a massive target in it. These people are dead.

Everyone can have words here. Don't know how on earth you can at all imply such a thing isn't true.

Lordganon 05:10, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

First, I do not appreciate your using my Lord's name in vain, Ganon. "Enough of what I think" is a way of turning the floor over to the next "speaker." I was going to just post the last sentence of the previous post, but felt you had challenged me so I posted more "thoughts." Of course, you are perfectly in your rights to respond to what I said, but what I was "implying" was not that others can't have words here, it was that no one else is having a say.

As for the regime in Spokane, I would say we should let the readers decide the extent of the destruction of the area. I have listed every mention of the regime I could find with links. The nearest thing to declaring this "massive destruction" is mentions that the regime's armies were more powerful than those of Utah in the Navajo Nation article (my apologies for leaving that out above, it confirmed the southward movement).

The "anti-government" militias you postulate are not based on facts so much as hype. The only anti-government movements in the 1980's were those I mention in the Lincoln article -- racist, anti-semitic white supremacists. To discuss the pro or cons of militias here would be a violation of the "No Cross, No Crown" rule, but assuming that conservative gun-owners who wish to protect their rights would become bands of raiders is stepping beyond reason in my opinion.

I did not claim or argue that they would stop at the border. In fact I stated that their target, according to what has been written, was the Great Salt Lake area. The whole picture of what "Spokane" entails was an impression created way back in May of 2009 when Louisiannan created the History of Utah article. In February of 2010 I asked on that talk page for verification for the strength of the Spokane "hoodlums" as I called them. Louisiannan graciously explained that the war began in Idaho and went south along the border with Idaho, perhaps to provide support for the "stranglehold" they had on the folks in the region around Spokane. I invite readers again to look at the primary documents before making up there minds on this.

So, is this to be just a forum for the Ganon and I to bash our heads against one another, or will there be another voice? All I am doing is presenting options here, based upon what has been written so far in the time line. If Enclave is satisfied with the concept of the destroyed villages, I'm fine with that. It would be a small thing for the regime if it was in the early days, though I doubt if they would kill everyone (they would need someone to take care of the dam if nothing else).

Any other thoughts from the community at large? SouthWriter 19:21, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

You having an issue with my use of a word is not my problem in the least, South.

That statement in the Navajo says nothing about their methods. Far more telling are the outright statements in the Utah history, and your own Lincoln article that indicate the terror and devastation they wrought.

You are incorrect about the identities of those groups. Only a decade after Doomsday did such groups become the largest in number. Prior to that they were outnumbered by the others - and those largely consisted of anti-tax groups. Add to that other varieties in general, and the supremacists are a minority. Plus, the survivalists in general.

The border - as in the eastern border of Idaho. Sorry, I thought I made that clear enough.

Louis' statements on that page have nothing on the extent of that regime. But what they do say is more telling - as in they've gone so far that ignoring the site of the dam, so close to their base, would be impossible.

For the love of.... South, you seem to be forgetting that the dam is no longer functional. Why would they need someone to take care of it? Add to that that dams of that magnitude are designed to last at least half a century - and usually at least one outright. And even the article - unfinished, obviously, right now - says that there was survivors.

There is no way that this place would have survived the Spokane regime.

Lordganon 00:11, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of unfinished, what else do I need to do on the page. Enclavehunter 00:18, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm....

Well, as I've said before, someone's got to find the place (either the new USA or Pasco, at a guess, though I wouldn't rule out a Victorian flyby). Past that, a "former nation" infobox, and some more information in general both about the state, and what happened there - i.e. what Spokane did with survivors, and the site itself. Plus what it's like today.

If you have a look at a few of the other "former nation" articles you'll get some idea of what I mean.

Also, might want to change it so the deputy made his way to Pasco after the end of the Spokane War, along with prisoner-soldiers from the Spokane militias. That'd be in line with people from Pasco, at any rate, and probably make a bit more sense.

Lordganon 00:51, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

No work done on this one in forever... Enc, you going to work on it? Lordganon (talk) 10:11, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

War of the Alboran Sea

Article by Gatemonger. Feg 17:09, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

St. Kitts and Nevis

Article currently covers mostly post-Doomsday, someone else might have to add pre-DD if that's neccessary. But I'm proposing this article. 77topaz 05:10, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

...None of that is possible, realistically. 77, you really should look at the timeline and nearby articles, some more. Also, there is almost no warning. Lordganon 07:39, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Better now? I've made the shelters into having being built there by a corporation for "testing purposes", which was overrun by civilians. 77topaz 07:52, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

No, that still makes no sense. As I said, have a look at more of the timeline. Lordganon 08:35, May 13, 2012 (UT

There are/were no shelters, there are no records of any being built/already existing on DD, why would there be? they are small islands in the middle of nowhere--Smoggy80 12:34, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Would there be any objections to putting this up for adoption? Lordganon (talk) 10:15, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Tag added. Lordganon (talk) 20:03, December 30, 2014 (UTC)

Antigua and Barbuda

See also St. Kitts and Nevis. 77topaz 22:34, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

There is no fallout in the area at all, and thus no damage from it, no strikes even remotely nearby, no dead from radiation, no shelters on St. Kitts and Nevis, and almost no dead. Lordganon 03:25, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

(UTC)

Sopron Frontier

Here is a proposal for an autonomous Sopron territory in the fringes of the Alpine Confederation. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Sopron_Frontier_%281983:_Doomsday%29

Would this fit into the timeline?

Mdc 1957 05:56, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

I understand the effort, and your willingness to contribute is great, but this is not at all accurate. Said it when your deviaART first came to our attention, and it remains true.

So, to answer the question.... no.

Lordganon 06:30, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I understand. Thank you very much for clarifying it. Still, when did you learn of the DeviantArt page?

Mdc 1957 06:38, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention that I used this page (http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Hungary_%281983:_Doomsday%29) as the basis from which the idea of an Alpine Sopron came from.

Mdc 1957 06:47, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

We first learned of it not long after you started writing them. Lordganon 07:06, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Right. That helps clarifying things. Though would that link be sufficient in working out the details for Sopron (and eventually western Hungary) if ever it's considered. Mdc 1957 07:13, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

You could likely fix the article. Lordganon 07:47, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Though if it's possible to leave Alpine influence in western Hungary open? Mdc 1957 08:01, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

There is no question of Alpine control in western Hungary. Lordganon 08:07, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

I see. Currently working on the revisions now, though it would help to see your inputs just in case (if you don't mind). Still thinking of keeping the idea of Sopron as the main base of the Alpines' Hungarian zone. Mdc 1957 08:14, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, it's their main base inside of former Hungary - however, there's little more than that. No established territories, etc., there. The areas of Hungary amount to little more than military control.

The references to Austria are not true - even in the beginning it was the two states, together, moving in. Past that, the rest of the Confederation wouldn't hold those attitudes as described.

No real EMP damages, beyond 20~ miles of each strike.

Alpine troops would have taken control of the area of Sopron almost immediately following Soviet attempts to invade Austria at DD.

Have to say that almost all of the Esterházy family would have been killed in Munich, Vienna, or Budapest. Unless you can find out for sure where some of them were at the time, it may be a plan to remove that.

Lordganon 08:56, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

I see. I'll make the necessary adjustments. Though I've also heard that the Esterházy family also had some holdings in Eisenstadt if I'm not mistaken, so chances are someone at least remotely linked to that line would have survived.

Also, I think it's mentioned in the history that garrisons did cross over into Sopron almost after DD and were in part responsible for its existence (it helped that Austrians were the closest to respond). In addition, I thought of giving the impression that although it's a joint Alpine affair supported by the respective governments (though not necessarily the public in Switzerland or Liechtenstein), the Austrians would have more to gain and be more sympathetic. Also I was trying to reflect the public sentiment of attempting to control what would likely be percieved as little more than wasteland. Sorry if that wasn't very clear.

Mdc 1957 09:11, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

With people, the rule of thumb is unless you can prove outright, or have a very good idea, that they survived, they died in the fires.

The Austrians, following the destruction of Vienna, received a lot of aid from the Swiss. Their troops would have been present. This is all after fighting off the initial Soviet invasion, of course. The troops there at the present wouldn't be mostly Austrian, either.

Really, moving into Hungary would have been supported by the people. Remember, the citizens of the Confederation suffer from extreme guilt over their actions in the 1980s, with regards to turning away refugees - a necessary move at the time, but by no means one people were happy with. This is something their actions afterwards support, with the actions in Bavaria and Italy, among other places.

They really didn't perceive it as wasteland at that time - moves since indicated that areas to the east largely were, true, but that wasn't until the 1990s. By that point much of western and central Hungary had been depopulated by raiders.

And when you add that the Confederation really isn't into expansion.... well, they aren't going to move out there.

Lordganon 09:28, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, the "glorified refugee camp" view in Switzerland and Liechtenstein at least reached its peak in the early 1990s, having long faded away by the present (and that's not counting the cases of denial that might still persist among some Alpines). Also, I sort of put into consideration distance and proximity for the predominant Austrian military presence. After all, Sopron is surrounded on 3 sides by Austria.

That said, however, I'll make the necessary corrections.Mdc 1957 14:11, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that that view never existed.

Moreover, there's no such authority in the area. It is military jurisdiction, and no "region" actually exists. Never has.

Alpine forces did not go on an offensive - they merely crushed the attempted attack on them.

In the aftermath of the battles on the frontiers, they moved into the surrounding areas to process refugees, areas which later became most of what they took control over when they closed the borders. They'd have had control of the area within months of Doomsday, if for no other reason than to process refugees and keep a buffer zone between them and spreading chaos to the east.

All the asides need to go. And, as I said, the parts about the nobles should too. Moreover, there's no "alpine support" for such a movement.

Lordganon 07:26, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I see. Will make more edits. However, some of the details were meant to fill in the blanks that weren't necessarily explained in the Alpine Confederation and Hungary articles. Also, it was meant to be a public reaction that would have likely existed even for a short time (after all, there's still bound to be some degree of resentment and suspicion of newcomers despite the aforementioned guilt complex).

Also, after several years, would it make sense that there'd be more to the buffer and frontier zones than merely military installations? As an added clarification there's no formal support from the Alpine authorities; doing that would logically bring it into dispute with Partium and to a degree Transylvania. Informal support on the other hand isn't officially sanctioned. Indeed, it could be read simply as local propaganda if you wish.

To be honest, I was hoping to give at least a portion of western Hungary the same sort of improvement that happened in Post-Doomsday Britain or France. Though that said, I will likely remove the nobles among others. Apologies for the winded explanation.

Mdc 1957 07:45, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

True me, that's not winded. You've not seen some of the debates around here if you think that was at all winded, lol.

The area has a tradition of aiding others. Plus, there wasn't ever any bad reaction to the refugees - just the overall situation.

No, not even "informal" support. Informal or not, it's still support, and that's not something that would happen. The AC is very connected to the Transylvanians and Partians, after all.

Even though the" buffer" zones in the east are not under any governmental structure, there are still going to be civilian governmental units, i.e. Sopron and other settlements having governments. But, there simply is nothing beyond that.

The article alone is improving things, quite frankly. Just needs to not make it out to be something it isn't, if that makes any sense.

Lordganon 08:22, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Point taken. If it helps, I mentioned that the Sopron Frontier Territory does have a civilian government, except that even in 2012 the Alpine Military still has considerable influence and a number of military installations along the border. It's not going to be independent or in any position to significantly expand (given limited resources) anytime soon. Also, the "support" should be stated as being largely sentimental than overtly political and more on being recognized as a legitimate successor alongside Partium rather than in opposition to it (though there's bound to be dispute should it really enter the political table). Just hope to give things a bit of a change (and perhaps more detail)rather than leaving western Hungary as is. I hope it clarifies things. Mdc 1957 14:21, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

...Not quite what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that it's neither an actual governmental region, an autonomous area, or any such thing. It's simply territory under the control of the Alpine government.

No, not even "sentimental" support by the authorities.

As I've said, there really isn't much left in most of Hungary - this small Alpine-controlled area is basically what's left in the west. Its fate, in the long-term, would be membership in the confederation. Basically, you can't make it out to be something it's not, however much you may desire to do it.

Lordganon 10:49, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

With all respect, there admittedly wasn't much expounded. In fact, the existing material comes across as a vague blank slate for the most part. That in itself, along with the 29-year difference from Doomsday can open up potential ground for something more substantial. I'm willing to make that risk in providing that semblance of substance. Mdc 1957 12:53, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

The phrase "with all respect" is just a way of trying to make something bad into something good. Never works.

I'm not saying you can't write an article on it, or that more substance isn't a good thing - but you're simply making the area into something that it's not.

Think about it, and revise it, but by all means don't leave it, lol. One of the best starts in a while on here.

Lordganon 09:20, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Though to be honest, there really wasn't much there to begin with in terms of both info and focus. So... why not give it a shot. Besides, 29 years is a significant timeframe for something to emerge. If it helps, I left in strong hints suggesting its more military purpose. Mdc 1957 09:43, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not only is it not what the articles hint at, for it to be under such a structure doesn't make any sense, truthfully. As for the "hints" - no, it really doesn't help. Bring them out in the open. Remember, this is sort of like an encyclopedia, not some sort of classified or slanted report. The only way things are hinted at , normally, is if they could be deemed too "horrific." Things like massacres, Hitleresque actions, slavery, etc. If you hunt around, you'll see them, but they're not obvious. Lordganon 12:09, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Apologies. Wrong wording. The hints were already changed, but to be honest, the articles themselves don't really give much. Still, it's a chance to at the risk of incrurring further debate stir things up a little in a corner of the world that hasn't quite been given much attention. Mdc 1957 14:28, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Still barely any change to the hints :p

With regards to all of the "bracketed" sections you've put in - they should either be taken out, or actually written into the article.

Lordganon 10:39, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'll definitely modify the bracketed sections. Also, tried rewording the hints. Heh... 114.108.192.19 10:48, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

As I've said before, "hints" really shouldn't exist anyways.

But, overall, you still have it as an outright government - which wouldn't be the case. And the part about Alpine support, in any form, for the Hungarian nationalists needs to be removed.

Lordganon 12:24, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ware Shoals

This is a community mentioned on the Piedmont Republic page. I created the page for Wingman1 who lives there and wants to develop some ideas for the town. SouthWriter (talk) 16:56, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks South, although i do live in Aiken SC now i do think of WS as my home.Wingman1 06:46, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Have to say, I really have a hard time believing that a place like this could exist more or less just outside of Piedmont as any sort of independent group like it sounds to be. Lordganon 12:27, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

What the Piedmont article indicates is that it is a collection of neighborhoods that are more or less competing for resources. Sometimes they might even co-operate! What we are trying to do is explain the course of events that lead to this. We only have to account for a period of about seven years (1984-91). After that it can become civiilized. SouthWriter (talk) 15:41, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

...Not quite what I was saying, South. What I'm saying is that it being outside of Piedmont, despite being minuscule and right next to it, as the page says at this time, doesn't really make any sense. Lordganon 08:50, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

it is right outside Piedmont, what i am proposing it Piedmont want them to join (exact timeing to be determend), and WS not wanting to at first with events hapening that change minds. (my plan it to use the distruction of the Mill with a responss by Piedmont with someform of aid be the tiping point that changes minds of the people in WS.To get WS to this point have them rather thand up front fighting be a bit more sly and make WS look like less of a target for the outlaws and raiders. ( after all it has been said that Belton SC was mostly destroyed by people escapeing from Columbia and Augusta, Georgia) not saying no battles at all but the ones that are fought the "bad guys" are dealt with harshly and swiftly.Wingman1 10:55, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Again: This place is literally right outside of Piedmont. Them not already being part makes no sense. Lordganon 09:43, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

so you are saying they all joined at the same time, or they didn't get to join AT ALL? I mean LG us Ware Shoals people can be stuborn at times (hell most of the times. lol!) but we do see reason sooner or latter. i am not keeping them out of Piedmont just giving reasons for the delay in joining.Wingman1 09:51, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

To quote the page: "...that have resisted incorporation by authorities in the Republic."

You're aren't getting what I'm saying. The page currently states that they are not part of Piedmont at this time. I'm saying that doesn't make any sense at all. They'd have joined long before the present day.

Lordganon 10:34, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

that is a good point LG. I might have to reword it a bit.Wingman1 11:57, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

LG made a good point, so I reworded the intro a bit South. Is it ok?Wingman1 12:02, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

As creator and caretaker of the article, I long ago asked Wingman, a local resident, for suggestions. He introduced himself when I wrote in Ware Shoals. I came upon the town the hard way (by river) without considering the distance by road. The fiefdoms (my creation) were what was found in 1991 and nothing more has said about it on the Piedmont page. I am open for it being incorporated any time since its discovery. What I am looking for is a good story based on more accurate information drawn from local sources. It has been 20 years since the expedition and a lot can happen.

Long story short, the truth trumps fantasy. All the article states is that in 1991 there was no incorporation. I can write in whatever fits best based on the facts.

SouthWriter (talk) 04:15, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

....Which doesn't contradict what I said in the least. Lordganon 09:19, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

I've changed the incorporation date to 1995 (1990 would have been before the expedition!). Besides, the fire which destroyed the mill comes in 1993 according to the outline as presented. I may back up the story about Williamston County a little bit. Even though Piedmont is established, it is not so set that little things can't be changed. We just need to make sure that what little that has been written about it elsewhere doesnot conflict with these changes.

SouthWriter (talk) 21:48, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

that's kool it was a long night that nite, i dont know how i missed it.

if that's good for you.

definitely im sure i made mestakes in the outline and i am fine with you or any one sugesting changes to me.

Wingman1 22:05, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Wing, please don't insert comments into the posts of others like that. I've fixed it for you.

Far as I know, South, it isn't referenced anywhere else.

Lordganon 09:43, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

sorry about that LGWingman1 14:48, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Ambattur Rebellion

Proposal for an article on a civil war in TN. The Royal Guns (talk) 14:21, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

...What on earth? Guns, this has nothing to do with the Tamil article, now. Lordganon (talk) 03:51, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? All I said was that it took place in TN? If you are talking about my edit to the TN article, that was just adding some clarification. As you said on Lesotho, a Civil war is something major in the history of a country- especially one that nearly succeeds. The Royal Guns (talk) 04:44, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Not only is the date wrong, so is the scope. This was not a civil war. Something we've been over with more than once. Not only that, but it came nowhere close to overthrowing anything. Lordganon (talk) 06:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'll fix the dates.

The reason it came close was because it happened so close to the center of government, not because the government forces failed to chop them down.

The Royal Guns (talk) 11:36, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

That is not coming close. Not in the least.

Better dates, but you're still missing that the scope is not even remotely reasonable. Nor is this non-existent group you've cooked up.

Lordganon (talk) 06:42, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

The CFA? They are't any sort of real group. Just a bunch of people who hated the government. And then met up. Kinda like a much more hostile, non internet based, Anonymous- not Anonymous nowadays, more like the days when they started.

I mean like, there was a chance, since they were so close to the government, that they might, despite being defeated in every "battle" sneak a sleeper through and get the Great Leader.

The Royal Guns (talk) 07:01, July 13, 2012 (UTC) The Royal Guns (talk) 07:01, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

...You missed the point. And what you describe is a "real group." Which doesn't exist.

...And that is not coming close. Not even remotely.

Lordganon (talk) 06:20, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

... I'll write an article on it, too, if thats what you're suggesting. Though I doubt it. Why can't it be a real group?

No, but, in a sense, since it was right in the capital... The Royal Guns (talk) 13:17, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

No. What I'm saying is there is no movements in the area.

Something happening "in the capital" does not even remotely mean it came close.

Lordganon (talk) 03:07, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

There's clearly a movement. I think that is obvious. Some 20,000 people grab anything between an AK-47 and a stick and try to beat the brains out of TP Mohideen Khan.

Assuming the government was in the Chennai fort, the rebels would have only been at most 10 miles away. At least maybe 5. How close does it need to be? Next door? In the living room?

The Royal Guns (talk) 11:46, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

That is not a movement. Not even remotely. It's a rebellion. Note the difference.

It needs to have an actual chance of success, and be a threat. This is neither. And there is no way on earth the leadership stays anywhere near the rebellion.

And, for that matter, the train stop under the fort is called "Chennai Fort." The fort is not. It's name is Fort St. George.

Lordganon (talk) 01:34, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Fort Indiantown Gap

A bare-bones proposal by me, about the National Guard training compound used by Readinger forces to train. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 14:06, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

So I've finally begun fleshing out this article. I hope to add more soon. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 10:19, January 4, 2013 (UTC) (UTC)

There was so little on the Reading Page about FITG, that I kind of made assumptions to put together a history. That being said, I am open for alterations, etc as needed. I wasn't really sure refugee wise how it faired as well as any effects from radiation. Daeseunglim (talk)

Manchurian Territory

Article by Mscoree.

Mscoree, we already have an article on this. You can find it here.

In lieu of that... any objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 09:30, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

That article is for the republic. This article is for the region/territory. I saw the blank on the USSR template, and added it. Mscoree (talk) 14:24, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

If you look on the Union of Sovereign Socialist Republics template, you can clearly see that this article is listed under former territories, referring to the region of Manchuria itself, not the Маньчжурский Социалистической Республики, commonly referred to as "Manchuria". Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 14:28, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

The territory and the republic are the same entity, with different names. There is virtually no difference.

Just because there is a red link, does not mean that something actually goes there. Or that you can add something to the work of another. I've fixed the link to go to the proper spot.

Even more so, the content is not at all accurate. Not even remotely, truth be told.

So, once again: Any objections to marking this obviously inaccurate and superfluous article obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 08:58, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

May I ask how this is obviously inaccurate? Also it is only superfluous if you let it. With this page people have the opportunity to expand and invent, telling tales that wouldn't necessarily fit in the republic page. But instead if you want to leave the area in the same basic shell it began, so be it. That is my objection. This page could have served much more, and detailed the historical significance of the territory, which placed into the limelight in the first place. Mscoree (talk) 14:37, April 11, 2013 (UTC) 

Also, even if they are the same 'entity', even though they're not since they're separate objects, then you might as well not have a page on any former nation. The republic is the successor to this territory. Mscoree (talk) 14:42, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Every paragraph has major issues, past the pre-doomsday history. I mean, you have it saying the the US nuked China, and that Aliyev was the first leader of the USSR - there's a ton of things like that, none at all true.

There is not a single thing that could not be said on the page about the republic - heck, almost all of the content you have is from there.

They are, in fact, the same entity - the name changed. That is not the case with any "former nation" - something that this is not.

Not an accident either, that the only article on a "territory" of Siberia was the Ural Territory - and that was merged into the Russia and Kazakhstan republics. Which is why it has its own article - it was in all manners a separate entity.

You are asking for an article to be made for a small portion of the history of an article we already have. There is no way that is not superfluous.

Once again: Any objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 06:39, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

I removed two letters. All inaccuracy fixed. Also it appears your incorrect about the Soviet leader. Mscoree (talk) 09:46, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

...You're kidding, right? That is not remotely what I said. Look at what I wrote again - just about every paragraph has something wrong with it.

Actually, I am right about the leader - the USSR has remained intact, at least to some extent, since it was founded in 1917. Aliyev is not even remotely the first leader of the USSR - he is merely the first leader since Doomsday. Note the difference.

Vlad has now even told you that this has no point, and that his intention with the article was to use it with a war that he and Arstar have not at all finished - so it hasn't "happened" yet.

Again: Any objections to making this obviously superfluous article obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 13:39, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, just one little nitpicky thing about the Aliyev issue: Aliyev is the first leader of the Union of Sovereign Socialist Republics. Obviously, he isn't the first leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Now, there is a continuity of government from one incarnation of the USSR to the next, but he is clearly the first leader of the "new" USSR.

With that out of the way, sure, mark it as obsolete for now. When I finally finish the war, I have no problems with anyone helping or editing the territory article, however. Vladivostok (talk) 08:50, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection to waiting for Vlad and company to finish their particular story. I will help in any way I can on this article, and in the area until then. P.S. The USSR was actually founded in 1922. Mscoree (talk) 18:19, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Again, Mscoree: name change. Not hard to understand.

Vlad, the name is the only net difference, realistically. To call him the first leader of it is misleading.

Lordganon (talk) 09:58, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

It's a different nation. That's like saying Mao Zedong wasn't the first ruler of the People's Republic of China, because China existed before that. The Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are different nation, as are the two Soviet states in question. There leaders should therefore be listed accordingly. Mscoree (talk) 22:48, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not even remotely a comparison.

That example in China is like arguing that the Russian Empire and the USSR were the same state. Not even close to being accurate.

And, on top of that, the ROC still existed.

Of course it's a different government in China. Literally no comparison.

Not the case whatsoever in the USSR between its founding and the modern atl state.

Lordganon (talk) 09:12, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

I know that Mscoree and I sound like broken records, but think of it this way, whether the "new" USSR is almost the same as the last USSR, it doesn't matter in the slightest. The name changed, hence the title of the leader changed, making Aliyev and Tuleyev the first and second leaders of the "new" USSR. Of course there's a continuation of government, the Revolution of 1917 is still celebrated, alongside all other former Soviet holidays, but that doesn't matter when it comes to the names. Vladivostok (talk) 11:22, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

...The titles you have listed on the page are more or less the same ones the Soviet leadership always had, with small variations depending on which one was in power.

Vlad, the only net difference is really the name. A new state that does not make.

Lordganon (talk) 12:32, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, you misunderstood me. It is basically the same state, what I'm being nitpicky about is the numbering of the leadership. For example, Aman Tuleyev is the second General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Socialist Union, or the Union of Sovereign Socialist Republics. See the difference? It is all in the name, but a difference nonetheless. Aliyev is the first leader of the Socialist Union, there's no doubt about that. The Uyghurs, Mongolians and Chinese citizens of the Union all regard him as the first leader. Vladivostok (talk) 13:15, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

More like you're misunderstanding me, lol.

Vlad, the name of something can change all you want - that in no way, shape, or form makes it a new state. Same goes for the new minorities. 6th and 7th leaders of the USSR.

At best, saying in the article that he's the first leader is misleading.

Lordganon (talk) 07:23, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I believe this article is ready to be canon. Mscoree (talk) 20:15, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Not even. You still entirely are failing to include objections raised. Lordganon (talk) 12:16, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

I think this article is ready to become canon. Mscoree (talk) 17:32, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

...You have not done anything about the raised objections. Not a single thing has changed since you asked last time, Ms. Lordganon (talk) 14:24, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

You said that the other article couldn't be canon since it still had references to a strong Chinese army. This article has no mention of that, so what's the problem. Also I'm not going to change the thing about the leader since proposals are supposed to conform to the canon, not the other way around. Therefore I think this article is ready to become canon. Mscoree (talk) 12:43, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Not even remotely the case.

Your base for this "article" is in events that are not canon. And, for that matter. you do mention the objections from the other articles in this one.

Still needs to be fixed.

Lordganon (talk) 14:32, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I believe this article is ready to be canon. Mscoree (talk) 10:35, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

You have done quite literally nothing to fix the problems. Not anywhere close to canon. Lordganon (talk) 11:20, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone else please review this and graduate it? Several experienced people have told me its fine, but when ever I ask for it to be graduated Lordganon copy and pastes the same message saying that there is a bunch of stuff wrong with it, which he apparently refuses to share (at least not clearly and in one coherent message). Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 14:14, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

Bull. You've been told 'many times by myself and Vlad what the problem is. Extremely "clearly and coherently," for that matter. You just refuse to do anything about it. Heck, I have even restated the problem with it in this very section of the talk page. As recently as two weeks/four posts ago, even. You may not like the objections, but quit fibbing about not being told them. Lordganon (talk) 17:47, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to mention that the article in question doesn't actually depend on the Operation article. Thius article is a result of the war that took place in 2012. The operation actually details the steps leading up to the creation of this, which is already canon. Mscoree (talk) 01:04, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it does depend on it. Nor is that other article anywhere remotely close to being "canon." Don't know why on earth you think it is. Lordganon (talk) 09:08, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

I believe this article is ready to be graduated. From what I understand the only remaining problem was that it contained uncanon information from the Operation Manchurian Freedom article, which has since been removed. Mscoree (talk) 19:57, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Still has some of that information in it - and has a more milder version of what the problem is with the other article in it as well. Lordganon (talk) 11:36, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

I have put Operation Manchurian Freedom back up to be considered for graduation. Therefore I propose this article be graduated as well. Mscoree (talk) 03:06, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

And you've done basically nothing to fix the other article, and the problems with this one. Lordganon (talk) 11:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with this article. Would you mind stating it for me here so I have all the information together? I thought early you said I had to remove the uncanon stuff, which I did. Mscoree (talk) 13:29, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

...Seriously?

You removed some of it, true. There are still references, including ones to the parts of the other article that still need removing.

Moreover, much of it, as myself and Vlad noted, does not go in this article. The article is on the Manchurian Territory, not Manchuria. There is a big difference there, which you have still failed to deal with.

Lordganon (talk) 09:17, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Operation Manchurian Freedom

Article by Mscoree. Open to suggestions on Chinese history. Not sure if Imperial China plays a part at this time, for example.

I believe this article is ready to be canon. Mscoree (talk) 20:14, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Not even close. You still entirely are failing to include objections raised. Lordganon (talk) 12:16, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

I think this article is ready to become canon. Mscoree (talk) 17:32, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

...You have not done anything about the raised objections. Not a single thing has changed since you asked last time, Ms. Lordganon (talk) 14:25, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

I believe this article is ready to be canon. Mscoree (talk) 10:35, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

You have done quite literally nothing to fix the problems. Not anywhere close to canon. Lordganon (talk) 11:20, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

I believe I have done as Lordganon said, and have reduced the insurgency quite heavily. I also had Guns, Fed, and Imp, all experienced 1983 editors, take a look, and I think it is ready to be canon. Can this article be graduated? Mscoree (talk) 03:04, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

...And, once again, you've done more or less nothing to reduce it. Lordganon (talk) 11:35, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

As one of the users named, I have to say, if this is about the "rebel armies", then ALL of that is gone. Unless this is something else- I was only asked to remove references to those.

BTW, since this is an article involving one of Vlad's nations, shouldn't he be writing this?

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:06, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I had permission from Vlad and he helped me write it. Mscoree (talk) 22:09, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Mmkay. Anyway, there are still apparently objections.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:11, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Lordganon, is it possible you could rephrase some of the problems for me here? Just so we're clear about what needs to be fixed. Sorry to keep bugging you about this article, I just really want to get it finished. Mscoree (talk) 13:18, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Just an observer's opinion. Since your last comment on the talk page for this article (08:05, November 7, 2013) there have been eleven edits on the page, accounting for a change of 388 bytes, assisted by three veteran editors. For that reason the comment, "you've done more or less nothing to reduce it," may not be accurate. Maybe it warrants a read through? Otherwise, as a wise man once said, "You need to not lie." Tr0llis (talk) 01:25, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, Trollis. Imp removed a bunch of extra spaces Ms inserted. That's the only "help" he has had.

I look at the vast majority of edits on this wiki, especially DD ones. Including each and every one of his "improvements" to this one. These "improvements" have been nothing of the sort.

Guns, not "gone" at all. Not even close. And that is only part of the problem, anyway.

Ms, not going to repeat again what I have stated both here and on the talk page several times. Not my fault if that is too complicated for you.

Lordganon (talk) 09:29, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Réunion

Although I am still adding to this article, I believe it is ready to be graduated. Mscoree (talk) 13:15, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction in terms, I'm afraid.         Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

Also, bit fewer people. Loads would have died since DD. And there's only been one, maybe two generations since then. Closer to the 1982 population. Or lower. Food wouldn;t have been a problem, if you don't mind fish, but medicine, luxuries, all only found off island.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

I'll decrease the population. What else do you think needs to be changed? Mscoree (talk) 00:58, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

An Assembly-style government was already in place by 1983.

Would be pretty much no food shortages.

Would be virtually no refugees. Island is much too far from Africa, or anywhere else for that matter. Definitely no "Mayotte Model."

Nor would there be looting or other crimes like that.

Concept of a navy is vastly overstated. No need whatsoever for one, or something like your "Relief Act." The idea of "building a military" would not occur to them, because it would not be needed whatsoever.

Contact with the French Pacific territories would be by 1984, at the latest.

Original population was actually right, imo.

And, for that matter, that infobox needs to be changed to the one used in all of the other articles.

Lordganon (talk) 09:05, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

By assembly government I meant a national government that doesn't answer to France, so basically the same. The RTFA didn't even exist until 1999. Maybe they contacted them before that, but they didn't join until the 2000's probably. So basically waht you're saying is they're very well off; no food shortages, starvation, or any other problems, despite being dependent on France for food. What's wrong with the infobox? Mscoree (talk) 14:22, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

That applies for Mayotte too. Mscoree (talk) 14:26, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

"Assembly Government" is the exact type of government put in place prior to 1983. It does not mean "national government."

Quite literally the only thing they need to do - not that they would do it for years anyway - is change the titles used by those in government. That's it.

True, the RTFA did not exist until 1999. But that is not even remotely the point.

What you have written says that they were not in contact with the rest of the RTFA prior to 2000. That is quite literally impossible.

Réunion would have been one of the founding members of that government in 1999. Not "contacted by them in 2000."

They are, in fact, not dependent on France, let alone anyone else, for food.

As for the infobox, compare it to any other article in the timeline. They are not the same, and need to be. Change the template to the correct one.

Lordganon (talk) 14:31, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

Why exactly does the infobox need to be changed? I think it looks fine. According to the actual, canon RTFA page this island was not a founding member, but New Caledonia and French Polynesia were. I apologize, when I was referencing the dependence on France for food I was thinking of the economy of Mayotte (sorry there';s a lot of conversations going on here), who doesn't grow enough food to sustain itself. I agree that Réunion would be a bit better off than that. Mscoree (talk) 17:49, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

Because it does not match any other one in the timeline. Rather obviously a different one, at that.

What the RTA page actually says is that it was formed after those two areas joined together. And there's a difference between the "Sixth Republic" and the RTA. Moroever, no founding members of the RTA list exists there.

Not true with regards to Mayotte and food either.

Lordganon (talk) 09:35, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

Mayotte

I think that this article is ready to be graduated. I am still in the process of updating and adding some information, but much of the content is there. Mscoree (talk) 14:20, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Umm what? That template doesn't exist.         Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

What do you mean by template? The link to the article works fine. Mscoree (talk) 00:59, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

Mayotte already had an assembly by 1983.

Would be no rioting or looting.

Would be far less refugees than you have coming. Madagascar didn't suffer much, nor did the Comoros, and Africa is too far off for many to get there. You vastly exaggerate the situation in Africa, as well.

The island would have already known about the blasts, through communications from the French government before the strikes. Comoros would have been the ones learning of it from them, not the other way around.

No need for the police to do any of that, because there would have been very few refugees.

Supplies would have been fine. Not "running out in 1984."

Again, no "policy" would be wanted or needed for refugees.

Contact with the French territories in the Pacific would have been made by mid-1984, at the latest.

Something would need to be added about the new regime in the Comoros, too.

And, for that matter, that infobox needs to be changed to the one used in all of the other articles.

Would do you a world of good, Ms, to do research, both with regards to the DD articles, and "real" sources. The lack of it is, quite honestly, readily apparent.

Lordganon (talk) 10:14, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

I do believe I did research this topic quite well. If you have knowledge of any RTFA-related pages please link me to them. Mscoree (talk) 18:13, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

...Seriously? Disturbing that you think that.

Sorry, but it is very obvious that you didn't look at much of anything. It's readily apparent that you know little about the government and economy of the island, and the post-DD situation in both the Indian Ocean and Africa. The logic you're trying to follow is a "fail," too.

Lordganon (talk) 09:39, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

The official website of the Institut National de la Statistique et des Études Économiques disagrees with you. As for Doomsday pages with RTFA information that you apparently have knowledge, again please link them so that others can benefit from them. Mscoree (talk) 19:33, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

Supplies? Fish. But medicine and all, would have run out. 

And the infobox, too... use Nationinfo, not InfoboxNation.

Apart from that, can't see anything wrong here. 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

I didn't use InfoboxNation, I used NationBox, a custom one I made that combines elements from both. Mscoree (talk) 23:41, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's still weird, and not as good. 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

NationInfo:

  • Advantages: Has space for timeline and OTL equivalent. Simple looking.
  • Disadvantages: Can't fit some objects, such as national anthems. Has always permanent links, which sometimes cause naming erros.

Infobox country:

  • Advantages: Has space for anthem. Professional looking (used on Wikipedia).
  • Disadvantages: No space for timeline and OTL equivalent. Even more links.

NationBox: (The one I used)

  • Advantages: Has space for timeline and OTL equivalent. Has space for anthem and other objects. All links can be turned off if you don't want them or haven't made the page yet. Has previous and successor nations spaces built in.
  • Disadvantages: Still under development. Not approved.

Mscoree (talk) 14:22, October 13, 2013 (UTC)

Not true... NationInfo has spaces for anthems, maps, etc. Is WAY, WAY more comprehensive than Infobox Country... or as far as I can see, Nationbox.

Here's an excellent example of a Nationinfo.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

That's not what I meant by space. I mean the large object. Mscoree (talk) 14:09, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

Still, as far as I can see... Nationbox does nothing NationInfo does not. Everything on the Mayotte Infobox could have been done with a NationInfo, and it would also align with the rest of 83DD. It's more than tradition, Ms, though Tradition does play a big part in it.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

No such reference on the site of the National Institute, despite what both you and wikipedia's "source" - not that that link there actually goes anywhere - claim.

The island does import some food, true - but by far most of the imports are fuel. It does, however, also export a lot of food - somewhat comparable to the imports, actually. Add increased fishing, and it's more than good. Potential imports from the ANZC or Africa only make that better.

Told you where to look for such articles that have information that either is directly on it, or impacts it in some way.

Almost none of your "advantages" over the nation template actually exist, barring you screwing up the article name. Change it.

Lordganon (talk) 09:49, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any sources backing up your claims? I believe it's important to cite sources for articles when writing, which is why I ask. Preferably one better than the Institut National de la Statistique et des Études Économiques. Mscoree (talk) 16:57, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Ooh! Ooh! Pick Me! Pick me!

How about Canon? According to the ERS page, Mayotte survived the war fine (this page is actually already canon, just not yet what you wrote). 

Now, your link (or rather Wikipedia's) for the Institute actually goes to the page for the island of Reunion, not that of Mayotte. So I think we can safely say that you really don't have any sources either.

The Comoros? Those came off amazingly from DD, BTW. I put the finishing touches on that myself, though I believe some anon wrote most of it.

Now according to the Wikipedia page, the island exports food- imports it, too, but not of the vital kind, I'd imagine; when you have that many fish around... but who exports fish? Better question; what non-landlocked, non-desert state IMPORTS fish? 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

I never even posted a link, I just referenced a national institute responsible for collecting data on these topics. Mscoree (talk) 23:12, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I can't find anything there, so...

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

Google "Mayotte" and "imports" or "exports." Simple, and not something I should actually have to tell you, imo.

The Institut National de la Statistique et des Études Économiques doesn't have any data on their site.

Lordganon (talk) 07:56, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, upon finding this thread after a while, I went on the site of the Institut National de la Statistique et des Études Économiques and found a ton of information on Mayotte (pages and pages actually). Also did you guys really just assume Ms opened the page on Reunion and assumed it was for Mayotte? Just type in Mayotte on the site and there you go, why would you even assume he used Reunion? Where did that even come from? "Now, your link" where is the link, because I don't see any. Now then, I haven't actually read any of this data, so I have no idea who is right or wrong, but simply put that organization definitely does have date, you just have to look through it. Having verified that this source actually exists, I'd like to see what you guys are looking at too. Other than canon (which is all well and good) and remarks to just google it myself, if you guys (ms, Guns, LG) could just link them here for everyone to see, that would end a ton of confusion and would be way more efficient. I'm not trying to insult anyone, I just think it would be a lot more productive for everyone to present their information, rather than go back and forth for a year. Tr0llis (talk) 00:45, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

You should probably let this lie Tr0llis. I plan to rewrite the whole article as Lordganon said soon enough. His points about researching were definitely valid, and has led be to consider other sources as well.

To answer your question, I believe Guns opened a wikipedia article and found a link to Reunion related data. I am not sure how he found it, as I did something similar to what you did; went to the site directly and opened the articles on Mayotte. With that said I need to investigate a lot further for sure. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 00:50, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Susquehanna Steam Electric Station

Proposal by Daeseunglim for a old power plant. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Commonwealth of Susquehanna

And related article on its military. By Daesuenglim. A proposed tiny nation state in northeastern Pennsylvania. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

The page is more refined now. I have added information on post doomsday history, recreation, the economy, a seperate page for the military. Any helpful ideas/likes or dislikes please post on the talk page or on my talk page. Thanks. (Note: I have changed the Air Patrol, mentioning the lack of fuel has grounded the fleet most of the time) Daeseunglim (talk) 20:23, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Would this be acceptable for graduation along with the accompanying Defense Force page? Bfoxious mentioned putting it up for graduation. Daeseunglim (talk)

Dae, it still has the same problems. You've got to remember, this is a tiny somewhat backward state. Not a modern country - you're making them out to be the latter. Tone it down. Lordganon (talk) 15:44, September 28, 2014 (UTC)

What problems do you see? Compared to Reading and other PA survivor states, it is quite backwater, with limited power production, limited steel and iron production, poor infrastructure, and other issues. It is more of a 3rd world or at the most a low down 2nd world nation. I picture the situation like otl Bangladesh, or Myanmar, with most of the money coming from Canada and other nations. These nations in otl still have electricity and other things. Electricity is unavailable for 99% of Susquehanna, the military is weak and small, medical care is basic, education is improving, but still shabby, and most of the money comes from food. I am not sure why you think that I am making it a modern nation. Daeseunglim (talk)

Any more problems? I can't seem to find any. Also, for the military, I have explicitly stated fuel shortages is a chronic issue for vehicles and aircraft. They have horses for the army as backup if there is not enough fuel. Also for the Air National Guard, I have a section of the fuel and say that only two aircraft are typically in operation. I have the Air National Guard operating 6 aircraft down from the original 16 I had written, although out of the 6, only two are really operated often. I realized that aircraft are expensive to operate, and with only recent contact many would have deteriorated. I was unsure though wether to remove the VIP aircraft and state that they used Susquehanna Air aircraft to transport VIP's. That would bring it down to 5 aircraft.

With the nation page itself, I have reduced the number of cars and HAM radios, and have reduced the hospitals, as well as stating a small herbal and natural based pharmaceutical business has begun (Penicillin, aloe, etc, all plant or fungi or mold based that are fairly easy to make). Also, when should the power be restored for the nation? There are two available power plants, and joining the UC might make it more plausible for the coal fired plant to restart in a few years? Maybe also restart the nuclear power plant to provide energy to the rest of the UC? Just an idea, not saying yes or no!

I left the county designation for voting, local policing, and other small issues. The counties do not act like states do in otl. Only the federal government can enact laws. This is just because of how small the nation is. It makes sense to have political divisions for this IMO. Hazleton's the largest city, my only concern was the dominate political state it holds. Also, I know I have a higher population that before, but I added the population of the territories and unorganized territories this time, plus a 2% growth per year.

I know it was said that having a rail system just in Hazleton was too expensive/pointless for a city that small. I see that now, lol! But would a troll year plausible, and what about between the cities? Having one train for civilian rail travel. Considering the roads are mostly gravel and there are less that 100 cars left, and 75% are under military or government control.

Also, in Danville there were several companies making automobile parts (ball bearings, belts, gears, stuff like that). Would it be possible for in the future, like 2025-2040 for the facilities to be restored? I know most of the equipment was fried but I wasn't sure if they might not return it to operational conditions.

I know there are 3 radio stations right now, two public (news/sports, music/entertainment) and one private, but when could TV be restored? There are two small tv stations in the controlled area, CCN Channel 8 in Danville, and Bloomsburg University TV. I doubt it will be in the near future, but figured with aid, maybe by 2025?

Thanks. Daeseunglim (talk)

How does it look now? Daeseunglim (talk)

Haven't finished going over it again yet - you have too much detail to make that easy, lol. So far it is better though. Lordganon (talk) 07:13, May 15, 2015 (UTC)

I believe this is ready to be graduated. Any objections? Daeseunglim (talk) 10:30, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Dae, a lot of the old problems are still there (though, that nudge from Arstar did help a lot)

Hmmm....

Remember, Leighton is more or less going to be toast by now, as discussed on its page.

CRUSA is unlikely to have a detachment here. Too small.

Spanish is going to be virtually gone.

They would have contact with Canada earlier than that - we know that Delmarva is in touch with Canada much earlier than that, and the Delmarvans are in touch with Gettysburg prior to 2004. Radio over that distance would be a tad much, too.

The air routes... the one should stop at the Falls. Anything past that is really too far.

You really do not need two chambers - state is too small and poor.

Can't see the libertarians using that logo.

The surrounding communities (and even Canada) aren't going to have as much to spare as you think, especially the locals. Most things are going to need to be trades of some sort. About the only exception would be the nuclear plant, for obvious reasons.

Should probably tone down the unification bits. Can't see anything past a joint currency developing, really.

Also, see past notes RE: railways, industry, and aircraft.

Past that... you need to sync the other pages to this one.

Remember, you're going for the "Mouse that Roared," not the one it roared at. So to speak.

Lordganon (talk) 16:43, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Tbh I used the logo for the LP for the lack of a better idea atm. Libertarian party is growing because they appeal to the "hands off" approach to individuals lives and business. Similar to post DD where laws have guidelines, not told people what and how to do things.

Two chambers: a compromise between Montour and Columbia County when it was signed due to a dispute over dominance. The chambers are VERY small.

Trade is minimal. I may overhype it. I will try to tone it down. I figured BASIC necessities, and minor trade. More with Reading and SC, less the further you go.

Unification in a literal sense is strongly opposed. Unification to gain more traction internationally is growing. Similar to the NAU I figured with less political power.

Would German have more of a presence do you think then? Or just replace Spanish with English?

I will change airline destination to only Niagara Falls.

Contact with Canada: my thoughts: similar to what we discussed on the NIN page. Most nations thought the region was toast. No radio coming out, no explores for the most part. I have changed the history that the area was relatively unstable until the early 1990's. Canada would have focused on areas with confirmed survivor states.

Railways: removed any reference to light rail. Plan on eventually expanding heavy rail to Sullivan County to ease cargo shipments (prob not until 2030-2035).

Industry: I tried to tone it down a bit. I added a section about how blacksmiths and carpenters have made a comeback due to the loss of manufacturing.

Aircraft: what do you mean? I forget what you asked me to change, lol!

Didn't want to alter pages until I got permission and got the nation canonized.

Daeseunglim (talk)

What are the objections, if any, that are still remaining? Arstar talk 02:28, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Just about everything they export has to go to nearby areas. Somewhat isolated. Imports have to come overland from the Great Lakes, or from Delmarva. Neither is easy. We're talking armed convoys, Dae, for at least some of the way.

So the classical libertarians, not the current warping of it? Nice. That logo, though... I just can't see the party here using the SoL as its logo, if that makes sense. A similar ideal from the local region would make far more sense.

Replace with English.

Thing is, Canada is in contact, among other things, with Delmarva in the early 1990s, and Gettysburg with Delmarva sooner than you have those expeditions leaving the CoS. They are going to know about Canada (and it informed of them) as soon as they reach Gettysburg. Contact like you wrote it, not happening. Relations with Canada would have been established prior to that via either their embassy in Delmarva, or diplomats in the Great Lakes area. Same concept applies to the Vatican.

Just remember with the rail that it will be very limited.

Aircraft - take one of the kinds out. One of the airports, too.

At this point.... Strong ties with Canada, or Superior. Not both.

Really aren't going to be in touch with Olmsted. Isolationist, that one.

Still references to CRUSCA.

There would only be one diplomatic office in Niagara.

Even with long-range aircraft, Texas and Mexico are too far. Better to expend effort towards Delmarva.

The air routes should really have only a couple of stops each, and probably nothing internal. Rail far easier and cheaper.

Don't forget what was discussed about Lehighton elsewhere.

...And, of course, the sub-pages still have much of the old content that has been fixed on here to go over still.

Lordganon (talk) 12:49, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

Any ideas for ways to edit contact with Canada in without having to redo a big chunk of the page?

Replaced with English. Removed Cessna from airline. Figure two aircraft of the same type is easier to maintain than two different types.

Long range aircraft, removed. Route to Bloom removed. Figured a route to SC and NP was realistic because it could stop at both since it was traveling that way anyway.

Which airport is more realistic to be still operational? Bloomsburg airport lacks lighting in otl, a tower, and is 3200 feet long, but has one terminal in in ATL is in the capital. Hazleton airport lacks a tower, but has lighting, radar, and a 5,000 foot runway, and a small terminal. ATL it is in the largest city.

Rail is very limited right now, primarily due to the lack of heavy demand. I figure most have gone back to a late 19th early 2"the century lifestyle where you mostly live in the area your parents did, and don't travel much.

All I say about CRUSA is the Unionist Party supports them. They have no direct contact, but known about them through word of mouth.

I mention that Superior and Canada are prodding the nation to cut ties to one or the other. My nation is in a bit of a pickle, because Canada proves to be a better investment in the long run, but Superior is closer and definite contact can be established quicker.

The nation is neutral, and I didn't see a problem with it having relations with both. Similar to Vermont.

I am working on getting one page graduated at a time.

Daeseunglim (talk)

Would it make sense for Susquehanna to retire the combat aircraft and just have cargo, VIP, and a trainer aircraft? Because the current COIN aircraft are modified commercial aircraft that were built in the early 1970's. Or could Susquehanna purchase COIN aircraft from the NU or Canada? Daeseunglim (talk)

Quite frankly, the only aircraft it makes sense to have are some sort of combat aircraft and a transport aircraft, at most. After thinking on it... basically anything like an airline should go. Far larger states do not have one, so here will not. Lordganon (talk) 15:36, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so modified civilian aircraft for combat roles? Or dedicated attack? My thoughts on the airliner would be basically recently started (past 2 years) to provide businesses and some wealthier population to get out of the country due to the relative isolation of the country. If you disagree, feel free to tell me. Daeseunglim (talk)

Modified civilian.

People and businesses that can afford that can afford the trip overland to Delmarva or State College... or, for that matter, have the political pull to get a seat on a government run, few as there would be of those. There's certainly not going to be any reason for an airline here.

Just remove the Canada contact section outright, and mention it with the Gettysburg section (mention Delmarva too)

On another note... Something occurs to me. Fuel shortages, overall, mean that you're not really going to be able to run military vehicles very much. You need to reduce the numbers, there.

Lordganon (talk) 03:25, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

Will remove airliner. I guess most of Sus foreign relations are within driving, and aircraft are expensive to upkeep. Fuel: I mention issues with a reliable supply. I will retire the technicals b/c of age but keep the rest. There are horses that they use in non emergency situations and for short range attacks that don't need motorized fire support. Will alter contact with Canada. Wouldn't that alter Sus' independence date? Daeseunglim (talk)


Hum guys, why is this still a proposal 6 YEARS after being created and despite being probably the most complete article of this timeline ever made (and being recognized as an entity in other articles)?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:32, June 19, 2019 (UTC)




Okay, I think it's quite enough : I hereby demand this country be recognized as canon in the timeline knowing it is

A-Complete from A to Z (no To be continued, more to be added, more coming soon, etc.)

B-Already recognized by the WRCB news page.

C-Already recognized by the Pennsylvania page itself and the one of State College and the one of Reading

D-Already recognized by the official map of the region

I think it's pointless to prevent it to become canon. Heck, there is the "under review" label if it's turned canon too soon and nothing prevent you guys and gals to edit the small details after it's canon (being canon doesn't mean uneditable). If no one objects after this post, I will make it canon with approval by the creator of the article.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:53, March 14, 2020 (UTC)


Page has been extensively redone, eliminating reference to rail transit, energy, downsized the scale of power, and refined the history to align more with Reading and State College (there were a few discrepancies in dates). I am still working to make the history on each of the county pages align with the main history (due to the fact I rewrote the history about a year ago, things misaligned).

It is referenced on several other pages without contest, and Arstar, Godphrey, and myself had several discussions about the nation in reference to their respective pages for Reading and State College. They did not take issue with territory or overlapping claims (State College stopped at the Susquehanna River [Snyder/Union and Northumberland counties borders), and Reading stopped in mid-Schuylkill County) so there are no overlapping territorial claims.

OTL 1980 population for the region is ~250k-300k (roughly), the ATL is 95k, which is 38% of the population. It is fairly rural and the nearest strikes were on Harrisburg and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, of which the radiation completely missed the area. Populaton drop is from starvation, disease, people fleeing west for theoretical safer grounds, and infighting.

In regards to issues mentioned earlier by LG and several others:

  • Power plant is still inoperable and years away from completion
  • Military is more of an internal security force, strong enough to capture and hold raider territory, but lacks meaningful air support (mentions aircraft are mainly grounded), armor, or artillery. It is primarily a light infantry force.
  • Eliminated rail transportation
  • Eliminated currency (barter and Reading dollar)
  • Per capita income is around what sub-Saharan Africa is today, which I felt was accurate given the lack of damage to the area, but it was cut off from pretty much everything around it
  • Healthcare is better than some of the smaller nations due to Geisinger, however it is on par with the 1880's/1890's due to the lack of medical manufacturing and power sources.

Overall, I think all the issues were resolved. The page is long because I have been adding things while it sat as a proposal for the last six or so years. Associated pages exist for the same reason. They aren't there because I think this is a superpower or anything, I just enjoy worldbuilding.

Thanks! Daeseunglim (talk) 20:02, March 15, 2020 (UTC)


Nobody objected in the last 7 days (week) and all criticisms having been (from what I've seen) adressed therefore, I, SigmaHero045, having been given consent by Daeseunglim to do so, will make this article canon. The case is settled. Congratulations to Daeseunglim after years of efforts to finally being able to see his efforts go fruitful.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 16:16, March 21, 2020 (UTC)

Kisangani Republic

By Guns. A small state in the northeastern Congo. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Former small state. It's going to be collapsed by refugees around 1998.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  20:32, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sweden

Article by Eric4e. Article name is pretty much self-explanatory. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Switzerland

Article by Oct/OM. Name is self-explanatory. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Congo

Article on the two Congo nation-states, started by Guns. Lordganon (talk) 07:26, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sealand

Can I make this a stub? I can't see anything else to add, and it is reasonably plausible. Praetorian Flag RoG Flag "Sleeps with the fishes" "An Offer you Can't Refuse." "Make a wish. It'll be your last" Falklands Flag

Nvm. I am going to be changing it a bit. Praetorian Flag RoG Flag "Sleeps with the fishes" "An Offer you Can't Refuse." "Make a wish. It'll be your last" Falklands Flag

Australian Electro

Another proposal by me. It deals with a genre of music that developed in Oceania. -Kogasa Miko THPW2 Flag of Europe 2013 November 13, 20:58 (CET)

What should we do here? Stub? Obsolete? Arstar talk 03:01, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'm still trying to work on it and finding ideas for it; so I think it should stay as it is for now. -Seiga Miko THPW2 Flag of Europe 2015 August 25, 06:13 (CET)

Lesothan Civil War (1983: Doomsday)

Article on the Lesothan Civil War, which is already canon. Seeing as it lasted 9 years, figure it would be pretty major, haha, and deserved a page.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:29, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Dammit, what happened to me? 11 months to finish one article? I used to churn articles like this out every week!

(Well, kinda.)

Anyhoo, it's done.         Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  20:43, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

I object because I have yet to read it. Tr0llis (talk) 20:49, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and ignore that completely, and until you present an ACTUAL issue, I'm going to go ahead and ignore you, too.

It doesn't violate canon, I know, mostly cause I WROTE the canon that would be involved here. All the numbers are checked and verified with OTL- Lesotho maintains those armies today seperate from any foriegn aid, and conscripting makes up for the rest. South Africa wasn't exactly short of weaponry when they collapsed and they DID have many arsenals near the border, including, conincidentally, in Ficksburg, which Lesotho basically took over after DD. So the weaponry is possible, the army size is possible, the continuity is possible, the people have humorously different roles, but hey, what a pity, no one cares.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  23:07, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

Considering Lordganon did the exact same thing to me, I don't recommend ignoring these objections. Mscoree (talk) 23:15, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

No, LG brought up actual issues with yours. You just chose to ignore them. Troll's is entirely subjective, not based in any fact, ridiculously stupid, obviously a joke, and does nothing but shorten my temper. I can't do anything more than reprimand him for disrupting the work of an actual TL, but frankly speaking, I don't have to pay attention to him.

Or you.

Bring up a real issue, or this grads on the 4th.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  00:32, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

"Any objections to graduation?"

"For now, yes. Call it because of the disturbing amount of things to checkup on in it, lol." - Lordganon

Should I just ignore Lordganon too? It doesn't seem like a joke or troll to me, but if you really say these should be ignored I guess we'll see what happens. Mscoree (talk) 00:48, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

...

Firstly, where is that from?

Secondly, he says in there not "I haven't read this" but rather "I'm renting three secretaries to type out the list of issues with your article".

Ms. Seriously, I'm not kidding. If you have an issue with LG, take it out on him, or better yet, shut up about it. If you have an issue with me, then approach me. If you're too afraid of conflict to actually DO anything about your complaints- or you're just interested in dicking around- this is NOT the place for it. 

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  01:03, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with either of you. I'm just saying it might not be wise to brush off these things. Mscoree (talk) 01:19, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Advice noted, and ignored.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  01:28, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

It's been a week without an actual objection. Article graduates.

        Centriflag   The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  23:20, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Doesn't work that way. You don't get to decide if something is an "actual objection" or not. You need to ask again. Lordganon (talk) 17:09, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I have read the article. I object because:

  • The different factions are pretty generic. Little to no regional flair or creativity here. Plays like a chapter of Joseph Campbell; might as well called them "The Empire/Government" and "The Rebels". Knowing rebel factions in OTL Africa, I doubt they would have such an undescriptive name, and I wonder if it would even be (entirely) in English. "Democratic Faction"? Try "Rally for Lesothan Democracy", or something like that, for example. Note, this isn't a major objection. Names are of minimal concern, but going the little bit extra amount of effort would greatly help.
  • "Following the coup, the Democratic Alliance declared war on both the government and the military". This is a bit awkward sounding. The "Democratic Alliance", from the looks of it, isn't even a government/nation ie they didn't secede or something, yet they declared war on their nation? (ie themselves.) Might make more sense to say an active rebellion turned into war, as the disgruntled population engaged against forces of the military and the government.
  • How is the government even a faction if (presumably majority of) the military has rebelled against it?
  • If the people, and the military, are fighting against the government because they want a (more transparent) democracy, why does the Democratic Alliance then ally with said government. I thought the people wanted to overthrow the government, as did the military through their coup. Such an odd set of alliances that don't really make sense based on these seemingly arbitrary divisions.
  • Why is the infobox a three way war, when in reality it sounds like this is more of a two co belligerents versus one situation?
  • Is the military attempting to overthrow both the government, and the people, and form a military dictatorship here? Not really clear their motives, or anyone's motives at first glance, and if so that somewhat explains the three way war. What it doesn't explain is why the government is left to survive when both parties hate it; that's like if Octavian, Pompey, Lepidus, and Marc Antony all agreed to just let Cassus and Brutus go free of charge. They wouldn't do that, if both sides want that government not to exist, for whatever reason, they'd knock out that faction and then battle against each other.
  • Why are members of the military loyal to the democrats in the early moments of the war, even though Tom Thabane and the government are the ones paying them. What, did the plebs pay them off in idealistic philosophy? Sure maybe a few are optimistic toward democracy, but most would probably rather not starve.
  • Talk about a poor quality cult of personality. Thabane makes this strict one party system and lets anyone be the commander of the military? If not, that guy surely changed loyalty fast. Also if that was the case Lekhanya probably would have just executed Thabane and begun a French Revolution style struggle to fill the power gap (military versus people mostly, with ex government people, "royalists" in this example, somewhere in the middle).
  • You mean to tell me the defense minister somehow is able to send in military police, of all people, and he thinks that's a good idea? What was he going to do, arrest a hostile army? Damn right that didn't work, but then the military executes them? You'd think these military police wouldn't even be working for the minister at this point, making their executions look tyrannical.
  • If Rameama wanted a coup he should have just marched into the capital building, dealt with some of these random military police, and just killed Thabane. How does attacking a military armory equate to a coup, that essentially equates to a rebellion. You'd think he'd walk on the wings of the people right into the city, if what you say is true about these protests.
  • You wrote that the war begins in 1955, meaning the soldiers went back in time like forty years.
  • So a military commander fought his way into an armory, for some reason, against recruits of little to no allegiance, to declare that the president was illegitimate? You'd think the military would just swoop in and remove this tyrannical president, like in the case of many other countries, not have each regiment or division declare some sort of new faction. Also if Rameama is now against Lekhanya, by your logic why isn't this a four way infobox?
  • At this point it might be a good time to note that in OTL the real life Thabane suspended the democratically elected government, and the military seized the police stations and headquarters. Honestly something like that; government and police versus army (and in this heightened version) the people would make a lot more sense. Have the rebellious generals or whatever on the government side; they keep overthrowing the government and installing themselves as the new government. Overall I think that makes more sense.
  • Lesotho doesn't even have military police, they have a branch of the military known as the Lesotho Mounted Police Service, which is regular (although well armed) police. Then you have the Lesotho Defense Force (ie "military faction"). The police answer directly to the prime minister and ministry of defense, so they would encompass the government faction.
  • The Lesotho military is only a few thousand large; and probably wouldn't be hugely expanded proportionally to the police, especially when they are apparently a rival group to the government.
  • You have a total of 333,500 combatants involved (approximately) even though that's more than the number of people deemed fit for military service, between the ages of fifteen and forty-nine. Must be a pretty crazy war then if people younger than fifteen, or older than forty-nine, or females, or what have you are involved. If you go by CIA estimates that number is almost three times larger than the number deemed fit for service between the ages of eighteen and forty-nine.
  • "The MPs were caught by surprise by the entire attack, and by the time of Thabane's announcement, had mostly been neutralized." What announcement? The only time you mention Thabane is when you say he made an announcement ordering the police to intervene in the first place. By the time he ordered the police to go into combat they were already dead?
  • If we were actually going by OTL the military would have just struck in the middle of the night and killed the police, and then the government, with Thabane going into exile at best. In OTL this "civil war" lasted one day. I get that this is a lot higher stakes, but you basically jacked up everyone ten times, and then make the military attack not-the-capital "to get arms" , even though they already have all the arms they could possibly need (and then they arm the militia, who you then say are their enemies?!), when they should have just entered the capital and executed the government.
  • After the above had happened, the military would have either enforced the democracy, or made a military dictatorship, at which point the people would protest and riot, beginning the second phase of the civil war, like in Egypt. Not much of this three way stuff, in my opinion.
  • Democratic Alliance forces somehow arrived in Mazenod, picked up guns they found, and fought the military? You mean to tell me random civilians somehow had the bravery and the knowledge to arrive in the specific spot where the military was heavily concentrated (at this point controlling basically all the weapons), and then beat them?
  • Why are the random democrats even fighting the military, when the military hasn't even declared itself any which way? In fact Thabane (somehow) is still alive even? You mean to tell me that the military, who hates the government, and the people, who hate the government, fighting against each other for some reason, while the government watches? What compelled the people to attack the military when they showed no intention of being on the government's side, in fact they specifically stated they weren't.
  • what's with you and executing people on roofs? Not to mention if they were actually trying to take over the government they'd be as fast and quiet as possible, to make it seem "normal", ie not cause the people to rebel. If the military had acted logically they would have quickly overthrown the government, and in the event that they went the dictatorship route, would have pretended to make a democracy while simultaneously cracking down on dissidents.
  • King Letsie III wasn't even the reigning king of Lesotho at the time. The king doesn't even have any real power, especially with all these totalitarian practices you describe.
  • "Year of Peace?" This isn't an RTS, where people turtle in their respective bases. If the military (who had this point should have been synonymous with the government) had all the power, why didn't they just crack down on these rebel forces?
  • The Battle of Three Armiess...this isn't a fantasy Tolkien novel. That's pretty much all I have to say about that.
  • The rebels have sleeper units?! What's the point of being a ragtag rebel group if they apparently have entire "fake" military units for the purpose of infiltrating the government. And I guess said government didn't even notice when their army suddenly grew.
  • This article is very optimistic about the strength of the democrats. The democrats are essentially a political party, yet they soon grow into an army despite the entirety of the military's and police force's weapons out of their possession.
  • Honestly the people can't really fight the military effectively; would probably just protest until the military agreed to allow elections or some other compromise. Whether or not they actually follow through is up for debate.
  • As such, I don't believe the majority of the article makes sense. Skipping to bottom.
  • That reminds me, if the king if Letsie III like you claim, that means the overthrowing of Leabua Jonathan already occurred. Did that happen or not? How come that didn't cause a giant war? Because that is what this article should be essentially.
  • "The King later commented that 'The stand of the Guard at Tosing will one day be remembered alongside the charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava or the 300 at Thermopylae.'" Wow I wonder what that is a reference to.
  • I'm pretty sure that Lesotho doesn't even have a royal guard.
  • Martyr for their cause? The people want a democracy and somehow "letting the king die" would make them more patriotic toward the military dictatorship.
  • If the government is letting the king die, why didn't they call off their made up royal guard?
  • Your entire description of the Royal Guard in battle is basically a wank.
  • "one of the Guardsmen knocked him out with his rifle butt". Is this a comedy? Why is this the king commenting on how his recruits became Spartans, and not on the fact that a soldier decided to assault him.
  • How did the king even manage to escape? You said thousands of soldiers had surrounded his fortress.
  • How does a few dozen men even defend a fortress?
  • What side is the king even on in the conflict? The democrats?
  • And on top of all that the page isn't even done...(which according to you is an objection).

Edit: I'm starting to wonder if this article makes any sense at all.

Will think of more as I read, but I think that's enough to get you started. Tr0llis (talk) 21:32, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

"It's not done" because LG accidentally removed half the page when he reinstated the Proposal sign.

I have put back those segments.

"Creativity" is not a reason for declining an article. I apologize for not spicing it up; when I want to write a novel, I'll write one. When I want to write the equivalent of a Wikipedia page, I'll write that.

I'll respond to the rest before the night is done.

        Centriflag   The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  23:10, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference between being creative and being developed/original. Since the factions are a central part of this, you'd think they'd be at least a little bit developed, and not just generic terms. Tr0llis (talk) 23:36, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

To be honest Guns, that doesn't really resemble a Wikipedia article in that sense. look at other modern conflicts in Africa and you'll see that for the most part the rebel groups have names, backgrounds, etc, not simply a generic title like "rebels" or "democratic faction". Mscoree (talk) 23:38, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

I have a question about that page. How did a ragtag, untrained rebel force kill MP's who, presumably had better training? I guess by seizing military armories, they could have captured heavy weapons, but still... Also, defections would have obviously occurred, but not in that large of scale, like 1 or 2 soldiers here and there. Also, although I know armored forces are not everything, they still are significant in eventual victory or defeat, it seems like the military controls a good chunk of the armor and artillery. That would end up spelling almost certain doom for the rebels, especially without foreign intervention.

Daeseunglim (talk) 01:49, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

Actually the military controls all of the artillery and equipment. The government faction would control a police force, which in OTL was able to be completely defeated and forced to surrender by the military faction in twenty four hours. That gives the military faction now 100% of the nation's military and defense weapons. The democratic faction is presumably armed with sticks or something, considering they control no weapons and are able to take zero military bases. In fact the article expresses how certain military groups seize those. Edit: Also in OTL the only reason the prime minister was able to return was largely because of foreign (South African) involvement. Tr0llis (talk) 02:10, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

This war is collectively as long as the Congo Wars, despite the comparatively small size of the nation in question. You'd think that if this small landlocked nation was that war ridden, neighboring nations (judging from the map) would invade/intervene in the war. Hell, then it would be a real Congo War-style conflict. Fritzmet (talk) 02:14, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

None of the surrounding nations were strong enough in this period- one spent half of it getting invaded, IIRC, and the other has such a tenous grip on power that any expansion would most likely result in collapse.

I'll explain exactly what my reasoning for all of this was, in around a week, when I get back from hospital. I know, I promised to do it on Friday, but at the moment I have something called Strepoccoccus Pneumoniae, or something spelled like that, rampaging around my lungs and making it sorta hard to breathe. Cheers!

(That cheers, for the record, was wholly sarcastic)

        Centriflag   The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  00:18, December 9, 2014 (UTC)

Martinique

No problems with the content of the article have been brought up, so I believe this article is ready to become canon. Mscoree (talk) 18:11, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Possibly because there IS no content. This has literally nothing. Not even a stubgrad here- it simply must have more material. 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:25, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

I apologize, I thought it would atleast be ready for stubgrad. I will add more content soon. Mscoree (talk) 23:15, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Nahh. Stubgrad is when the author writes somthing that is plausible that makes sense and can be canon, but leaves the wiki or stops working on it for a long time... I think..

You're still here and want to add more. So do so.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  23:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that is more or less what it is actually for, though things do get stubgradded eventually anyway if they pass a certain point. Also has to be plausible, mind.

As it stands, you don't even have it accurate, and are ignoring everything that you were told about the island before.

And, once again: that blasted template needs to go.

Lordganon (talk) 16:49, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

On this particular article I wasn't told anything about the island. On the talk page all you noted was the template. I don't think deleting the template would be good, and I don't see the benefit of replacing it. As far as I know there is no rule that you have to use a particular template for anything. Is it possible I could just keep this one? This one's a lot easier to use, and replacing it would be a hassle. Mscoree (talk) 20:43, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I can replace it if you want. Far as I can tell, the only difference here is layout...

You could add other stuff too just saying...

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:14, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I can fix it myself, I just prefer the other template for this sort of thing. Mscoree (talk) 22:18, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

You've been told several things about it.

Been over the template before with you. so long as it is that one, it won't graduate. As for it being "easier to use," that is your opinion, and it's inaccurate, at best, too.

Lordganon (talk) 14:05, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's just my opinion. You don't have to say my opinion is wrong. Mscoree (talk) 23:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that's your opinion.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yunnanese Civil War

Page I made for the war in Yunnan. Imp said he was going to look over it a while ago, but otherwise said it was about ready to be graduated. Will probably make more battles and information at a later date, but at the moment I have all the canon information down from the Yunnan page. Can this page be graduated? Mscoree (talk) 15:00, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Dear Ms,

If you intend to add new features to your page, do it before you grad, or else when you do add those new features, you'll get reviewed and lose your grad.

Sincerely, Guns. 

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:15, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

What I meant was, I already have all the content down, but I may choose to just flesh out some of the battles and details. Basically just elaborate on things. Mscoree (talk) 01:09, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

So if there are no objections may I graduate it? Mscoree (talk) 22:33, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

I is object.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:38, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

I kinda have to as well, actually.

The rebels aren't going to declare independence. That would defeat the whole purpose. They would form a rebel group with the intent to overthrow the government. There is a big difference.

They would not win nearly that easily. And, imo, the government would be far better armed than the rebels.

Would take far longer than that to train. There is a reason why civil wars are generally not short.

Not only would the capital not fall so easily, but its fall would also not kill the government like that. You'd have warfare for years.

Lordganon (talk) 13:23, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

I will make those adjustments. Just want to point out though that the Battle of Kunming and the dates are already part of canon (from Yunnan article). Mscoree (talk) 14:10, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

In addition to what LG stated, I gave you at least 5 other things on chat.

Also-

Battle was canon- scale was not.

And while the dates might refer to the official end of war, actual warfare would continue till almost the modern day.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  20:56, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

I am aware that conflict may continue after the official end of the war. As for the canon, I was refering to the time of events. The Yunnan article states the years between the start and end of the war, as well as the approximate amount of time in which the Battle of Kunming is fought. Mscoree (talk) 22:25, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Which is not what LG was complaining about. I recommend actually reading his statement.

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:40, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

I read his statement...

Was just trying to shed some light on the situation. Mscoree (talk) 22:43, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Umm, so basically you were trying to change the subject? Actually?

Why don't we go back to fixing the relentless implausogasms here?

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  22:59, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not a word about it should have been added to Yunnan until this was graduated. So, it is not canon.

The time period isn't plausible. No ifs, ands, or buts about that.

And the war would "officially end" when the fighting does. Winning a battle is irrelevant to that.

As Guns said, way to try and change the subject, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 14:28, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

So it's not canon here because it's not canon in Yunnan because it's not canon here.

Just to make that clear :D

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  21:10, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Might want to talk to Imp then. To quote the canon, "The loyalist troops were pushed back by the numbers and the will of the rebels. The loyalists made their last stand in central Kunming. It would take days of heavy fighting, but the rebels would break through and force the surrender of many remaining soldiers. The ruling generals would be arrested, tried for their crimes and executed swiftly." The dates are also on there. After all, Imp was the one who told me the dates in the first place. Sorry for changing the subject again, but I think that is important. Mscoree (talk) 12:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yunnan needs to be reviewed then. Doesn't make this canon, Ms.

Why don't you work on one thing rather than constantly abandoning previous ones? Finish Manchuria or whatever before you start on this. FFS...

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  16:39, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I talked to Imp and he has agreed to let me change the time frame. Even though Yunnan is canon, I will diverge from it if that's what it takes, and fix Yunnan accordingly. I just hope that once I fix it I don't hear it rejected for not following canon, since that's what I did and then I hear the canon is wrong. Anyway, now that I'm not confined to a certain time frame hopefully i can spread out the war a bit more and make it more plausible. Mscoree (talk) 21:00, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Awards

A list of awards, post-DD. Noticed no one had done this, so...

Could someone give me a list of canon awards? I'll add a bunch of made up ones. Any ideas would be accepted, too :D

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  23:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

For sports you can add stuff about all the awards won on here, including Olympic Games and FIFA world cup results. Other than sports I'm not sure if anyone has written about any post-doomsday awards. Mscoree (talk) 15:25, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I've written about one post doomsday award, and I'll add some others. What's the shots on the Nobels being resurrected? I mean, we've still got the Alpine Confed, right?

        Centriflag   Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  17:12, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Nobels would still be ongoing - Nordic Union, not the Alpines - but for a number of years would go to Scandinavians, given contact. Expect the first winners after that to elsewhere would be somewhere in the range of 1985-87. Lordganon (talk) 12:51, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm a bit busy until Sunday, but I think I'll start work on this (and several other pages) then.

            Centriflag   Every Silver Lining has it's cloud- And HERE I AM!  22:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Verdigris

Small state in Southern Kansas by ScarletI am helping him with it by giving suggestions on the talk page. Macedon ShieldBow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!Rome Shield

Page currently being redone by Daes and I. —Bfoxius (talk)

What's the status on this as of recent? Arstar talk 16:26, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Greater Hazleton

Small state in Northeastern PA.

Page by: Daeseunglim (talk

Operation Retribution (1983: Doomsday)

Page describing counter gang/raider operation by the CoS to permanently remove the threat. It needs work still, and can people tell me if it is too long (the operation, it's 3 years long). I feel like it should only be a few months at most, but I want to tie it into the info from reading as well. Daeseunglim (talk)

Just out of pedantry, isn't it the "Crips" rather than the "Crypts"?

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  12:14, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Lordganon (talk) 15:58, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

Impfondo

Nation in the former Republic of the Congo that I have been developing. I plan to write some history for the region as a whole which may impact some of the later history of this nation, but so far the nation's individual history is pretty much thought out. I thought I would put this nation up here to be reviewed until then, so I can get some feedback first before making more nations. Is this nation ready to become canon? Mscoree (talk) 03:40, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Brazzaville is now under the control of Zaire. You should most likely mention that.

Your infobox is missing a LOT; that's just a note, not an objection. But you should fix that. Population, currency, etc.

Include a map. Unless you're saying you held on to the entire Likoula Department (in which case, objection), you need to provide some reference as to exactly how big this nation is.

The term is "Animism", not "Traditional African Religion", which not only seems to group all of them together but also sounds vaguely offensive.

Refugees would be going to OTHER way; the biggest hits in the Congolese collapse were taken in the North. They'd be going to the south; Angola, Katanga; basically, out of the Congo, not deeper into it. That whole refugee part needs to be stricken.

The CAR survived doomsday intact. Ish. They'd be making contact with that, not with "Bangul".

I can't find any record of armed forces in that region. I'm not sure which ones you refer to.

Your situation moves WAY too fast. These governments wouldn't pull themselves together before late 1984, imo; and you have rebellions taking place just months after the government is set up? Discontent takes more time than that.

Your war is way way too much. Unlike, say, Isiro, there are no major military bases in the region even now. What are these people fighting with? There are no weapons being shipped in, no trade networks with the rest of Africa, even.

Democracy, without outside urging, would take a lot longer than this to manifest, IMO, but that's not a solid objection.

Given that 90% or more of your nation is totally illiterate, who exactly is voting? 

I'm just saying, the largest this state could be is around the size of the PRA. It won't be too close to Gabon, and it can't be in the south, or the wars there would have collapsed it. There's bad blood in that region.

Population, I'm going to guess around 50,000, tops. The city OTL has 40,000 and what with the wars and the inevitable famines, At least half that is gone. I think it might be hard for all those wars to take place.

Finish that history before you ask for canon. It goes up to 1994; not even halfway.

Cheers,         Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  20:31, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'll be sure to mention Zaire at some point. Most of the time when I said Brazzaville it was because I was referencing the city itself.

You kind of have it backwards for the religion part. Saying "traditional African religion" is correct and how they say it on Wikipedia, and appears to be very different from what you said.That term applies to a number of religions in the region.

I will be adding more information to the infobox as time goes on, as well as a flag and map, probably when I have access to my main computer.

By refugees going north, I meant people fleeing from Brazzaville. The main form of transportation is by river, so they would travel up the river from the city to places like Impfondo. You can't go the other way, lest you think these dingy river boats are going to flee into the open Atlantic.

Places like Brazzaville would probably be the center of conflict anyway, with conflicts like in Impfondo, times ten.

By military forces and government, I was referring to the OTL regional presences in Impfondo, since it's a regional capital of the former nation. The first real government isn't formed until 1987, and before that this "government" I refer to is the pre existing socialist regime that had set up in the city from before Doomsday. Before 1987 though no government controls the whole city, let alone the whole nation.

Guns, in Africa that honestly isn't that fast. I actually took snippets from OTL history and slowed them down. In OTL and ATL the government survives for two whole years before a civil war to install a new dictator. In OTL and ATL people protest this harsh dictator almost immediately.

Weapons are coming from Brazzaville, Bangul, and the OTL government/military forces. Keep in mind that even before doomsday thousands of guns were in circulation, supplied from the USSR and USA aligned nations during the cold war, or purchased regularly, and that by doomsday thousands of guns would be in use in the already existing insurgencies.

The CAR is intact yes, but when I said Bangul I was saying they are in direct trade/contact with that city in particular, plus depending on the time period Bangul can be different from CAR.

Democracy wouldn't be hard to manifest. In OTL the people were once a democracy, and had fought for that right from Europe. A socialist dictatorship took over, and was able to be propped up from extensive support from the surrounding foreign nations. In OTL nations like Angola and France were able to intervene. Here there is no support for Socialism, and democracy can catch on pretty fast, especially when there is no real government in existence in the time. The nation starts by default as socialist, but this "government" has no real authority whatsoever, and is just another faction fighting to become the official government. They are only called the government because they start in the city. In OTL they vote too. Mind you turn out must be very low, but voting none the less.

This nation is going to be pretty small, with direct control in only a few pixels. Probably about 90% of its territory will be claimed territory or territory operated by different factions.

With such a low population I was assuming the city of Mbandaka was going to conquer/wreck them later, but that has yet to be decided.

Keep in mind that the only reason I don't keep writing is that the rest of the history requires me to write stuff for other nations. I wanted to get what I have so far approved before I throw more work into a half dozen other pages that need to be addressed before this reaches the modern day. Thanks for the feedback, and I hope this long paragraph answers some of your concerns.

Mscoree (talk) 21:33, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Holy wall of text, Batman!

Bangui is never different from the CAR. I repeat, the CAR stayed intact and weak. BTW, it's Bangui, not Bangul. In any case, I can't see a small state being able to pull that kind of voyage. And you're hundreds of miles away from the Ubangi, too, so that's a no.

Mbandaka would have completely fallen. They can't produce enough food to feed that population even nowadays; after DD, it's not possible.

A government that decentralized would have collapsed. You have to understand how many bandits and armed groups there are in the region. 

Yes, there are guns; but none of them would be in your area. This area is quite isolated. And has a TINY population. How are you feeding this, anyway?

The Ubangi river is not close enough to Impfondo for refugees to use it, and also, refugees would not be leaving Brazzaville. They would be going towards it. Even if they did leave Brazzaville, and they wouldn't, they'd go to Bangui, which is actually on the Ubangi.

Ms, I repeat; you ask for canon when you are DONE with articles. There's nothing wrong with having 10 proposals; when you actually finish one, it will be made canon. Till then, no.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  22:57, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

You make it sound like Impfondo is very far from the river, when in reality it is touching it. If they are going to Bangui (pardon my spelling errors above), then they'd have to literally pass through the city of Impfondo, there is no way around. A good population goes toward them, hence they arrive in Impfondo at some point.

Judging from the page for the CAR, Bangui doesn't equate to the entire region always. And besides, as I said, I was trying to say they have direct contact with that city specifically, not necessarily the whole country. They could surely have that sort of voyage.

In real life the entire existence of Impfondo is pretty much dependent on the route from Bangui to Brazzaville. People make the voyage ever day.

"A government that decentralized would have collapsed", no kidding why do you think I have them collapse many many times. Notice also how they start out not even as a real nation. By the mid 1990s they are more like a city state. There are tons of bandits and different factions, I wrote that dozens of times on the page, and as such the nation resembles more of a feudal/extractive society than a centralized state. The actual government again only controls a few pixels on the map, the important cities and trade routes, while 90% of the land is various warlord territory of sorts, which depend on the capital as an outlet for their products.

The population in OTL is pretty much self sufficient in terms of food, fishing in the rivers heavily and farming in much of the north. Certain plantations are in the hands of gangs which use the crops to fuel their political agenda. The OTL militias that operated in this region still exist, and still have guns, although I'd imagine in short supply in some areas. Hence why the military is in shambles and why there is conflict over those that remain.

As for refugees, there would be heavy conflict in Brazzaville (the Zaire article is kind of lacking at the moment), similar to the conflict here that is portrayed on a smaller scale. There is still the socialist versus democratic struggle, still the many potential dictators, still the conflict from neighboring powers, still the giant population that has to go somewhere, or at least there still should, and so I don't think it's unlikely for refugees at one point or another to go this way.

I mean the second Brazzaville does have a war, causing thousands of deaths, many are going to want to leave. There is also the thousands of starving inhabitants who realize that the city they fled to no longer has much to offer. You can't grow stuff in Brazzaville, after all, and many would flee in pursuit of a food source or political freedom.

In OTL there is a small crisis over thousands of people fleeing into the jungle in search of food, causing massive ecological consequences. This still happens in OTL, and Impfondo is an easily accessible place to do so, only a short trip by river.

Sorry I've having a hard time posting at the moment, and this is probably a disorganized rant, but hopefully it gets the point across. As for making many proposals, I still plan to work on my other pages, but I was a bit inspired here and decided to take a chance.

Mscoree (talk) 23:38, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Google maps says that it is over 100 km away from the Ubangi. Please, though, give me YOUR source.

Again; people would not go to Impfondo. There are stable elements to the north, and stable elements to the south. Impfondo is in the dead center of "Guns, Germs, and Famine"-land. And that's OTL. ATL, it's 10,000x worse. No one, repeat, no one, is going to Impfondo.

There, uhh, are no OTL militias that were active in 1983 in this area. Certainly nothing with guns. Furthermore, consider that apart from the AK-47 and the AK-74, any guns in the region didn't make it past the 90s.

Actually, Brazzaville can feed itself mighty fine. Unlike, say, Impfondo, it is NOT in the middle of a jungle.

I do need to flesh out Zaire. But what is there is canon, and common sense on top of that states that Brazzaville would have made it through pretty well. Military center, capable of feeding itself, not particularly reliant on food aid. Impfondo is exactly the opposite. 

(More to come)

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  21:15, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Just so you know Google Maps labels aren't exactly accurate, especially not in this area. Look at a labelled map of the region, or maybe Impfondo or the river on Wikipedia, it's pretty obvious (the country as a whole there is only slightly over 200 km across anyway, if what you said is true Impfondo would be in the middle of the country. Not to mention it clearly says on Brazzaville's Wikipedia page how important the river connection to Impfondo is; "The city is also an important river port, with ferries sailing to Kinshasa and to Bangui via Impfondo.").

As for Brazzaville, they can't feed themselves exactly, especially not with one third the total population and forty percent of the nation's non agricultural jobs. Brazzaville would most certainly require agriculture in Pool or other regions, like real life. Saying the Brazzaville department itself is self sufficient is ridiculous.

In the same way, Impfondo isn't self sufficient either. Both are urban areas. It requires hundreds of square miles of farmland and forest across the north. Brazzaville also relies on foreign and domestic imports along the Ubangi river, among others.

Again guns native to Impfondo would be scarce. Considering that across the country as a whole there are a ton of Soviet equipment and guns, it would not be hard for some weapons to be acquired.

What's going to happen when a rival faction in Brazzaville is overthrown? They're not going to sit around in the 100 square km territory that is Brazzaville Department, they'd flee, and probably along the only form of transportation available; the Ubangi river. Plenty of guns to be bought, or brought in by hostile people.

I don't believe "Brazzaville would have made it through pretty well" is common sense at all. In fact that's somewhat counter to common sense. Just going off OTL that region is home to massive conflict. The city is a common and frequent staging ground for wars, including struggles between the government and rebel forces. In real life during this time the city was home to thousands of civilian deaths from violence and several hundred thousand refugees fleeing north or out of the country. Saying that the region has massive conflict for years and years before doomsday and then magically stops before becoming "pretty well" isn't really a fair assessment of what the region would plausibly be like in real life. If the city is home to constant struggles for power before doomsday, imagine what it would be like with resources even scarcer in a post apocalyptic world.

Mscoree (talk) 21:35, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

False. Impfondo is not near enough to the Ubangi for any mass scale move towards it.

Not that it matters, since as I've said 4 times, The refugees would NOT BE GOING TO IMPFONDO.

The difference between Brazzaville and Impfondo is that Brazzaville is surrounded by fertile land and Impfondo is surrounded by non-arable jungle. Slash-and-burn farming is a failure.

Brazzaville would experience a population drop of around 20%. Impfondo would experience one nearly of 90%, because it CANNOT FEED EVEN A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF IT'S POPULATION.

None of those guns would be near enough to Impfondo to get there. The nearest place to procur weapons is in the CAR- but anyone who goes there has NO REASON TO COME BACK. Refugees are fleeing away from Impfondo, not towards it.

You do know Brazzaville remained a democracy? It lost control over 5/6 of it's land, but what remained survived pretty well. In 2007 it merged to become Zaire.

Oh, and the 2/3 of Congo's population living in the non-coastal areas beyond Brazzaville's reach? They fled or they died, because there is no food for $#!% out there.

Apart from 1997, the RoC had a fairly stable, if communist, government for a poor African nation. THere was a bit of upset in 1977, but that was resolved fast. 

Nothing "magical" happened. If you read a few articles of 83DD, maybe you'd realize this.

Of course there was some unrest. Zaire formed because Kongo got too expansionist, and they had a little war. But there was nothing in the area that would cause people to flee from a region that had food into one that didn't. Think, Ms. To the south is Angola, which is in 3-4 nations and is the definition of "fustercluck". To the East is the DRC, which was probably the worst hit state on Earth that did not take a direct nuclear missile strike. To the west is the sea. No doubt the coastal towns survived quite well.

And to the north there's nothing but jungle and starvation. In the other three, you'd have a shot at survival. Not there. All this has been reasoned before. All this is already Canon.

Impfondo needs to be a lot smaller, a lot more complete, and a lot more plausible before it has a shot at gradding.

I personally recommend focusing on a single article, if you want to get something graduated, rather than this flip-flopping between them.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  02:30, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Every time I try to work on a single article people try to tell me that my state isn't even on a river, and that I am being vaguely offensive for not putting Animism haha. But seriously, If Impfondo was any closer to the Ubangi River it would be underwater. Looking at a map of sustainable development in Africa it appears that areas around the Ubangi and Congo are poor locations for farming, but the north and west (which are in this nation) are on par with the south or better, meaning that overall Impfondo has nearly as much potential farmland as your nation of Zaire would, and with much less people to feed anyway. Looking at your map it appears most of the OTL farmland is in the nation of Cabinda, while Zaire hardly has much. The region that includes Impfondo also is expected to experience a twenty five percent  increase (one of the largest in Africa) in cereal production moving into the future. The region is also regarded as a highly suitable location for small-scale farming and fish yield. Most of the farming in Impfondo would be rudimentary, but considering that in OTL this region produces a great deal of agricultural products, being a large exporter of palm oil for example, it isn't impossible to have farms. Also it's really not that hard for them to acquire guns, but fine, let them fight with spears if they have to. In fact I very rarely discuss guns in the article as it is. "You do know Brazzaville remained a democracy?", as in became one? It doesn't start one in 1983. I'm not saying the Republic of the Congo was as bad as say its neighbor to the east, but at the same time they weren't modern Switzerland. Here's a brief rundown.

  • 1960 - Fulbert Youlou presidency.
  • 1963 - Uprising and coup.
  • 1963 - Massamba-Débat makes new constitution, adopts "scientific socialism".
  • 1965 - Relations with USSR and other Communist nations.
  • 1968 - Coup.
  • 1969 - Marien Ngouabi proclaims People's Republic of the Congo.
  • 1977 - Marien Ngouabi is assassinated.
  • 1977 - Interim government under Joachim Yhombi-Opango.
  • 1979 - President forced from power and replaced by Denis Sassou Nguesso.
  • 1991 - People's Republic removed. Prime minister appointed.
  • 1992 - First actual election. Pascal Lissouba presidency.
  • 1997 - Civil War. Sassou Nguesso declares himself president again.
  • 1999 - Civil war and foreign invasion finally ends, with great damage to nation.
  • 2002 - Unfair election keeps Sassou Nguesso in power.

As you can see they are a "democracy", if that means taking over the nation through violence, becoming president despite elections, and otherwise being a minor dictator. Good to see Zaire is a democracy somehow.

If I read a few 1983 articles that wouldn't really get me anywhere, since most in the region are stubs that basically consist of "1983: Total economic and political collapse. Late 2000s: Is democracy and everything is pretty good".

"Zaire formed because Kongo got too expansionist, and they had a little war". That's pretty much an exact equivalent to the OTL civil war's foreign invaders, who in OTL killed and displaced thousands, and created many refugees heading for the north of the country or out of the nation (overseas). Mscoree (talk) 11:06, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not having this debate with you. If you want, put those articles up for review, otherwise, treat them as canon and change this.

Regardless you still WOULD NOT HAVE REFUGEES GOING TO THE NORTH. That's the ONE REGION WHERE THEY CANNOT FEED THEMSELVES. Your state needs to be smaller in effect. And your loose groupings of warlords? No. This city should control maybe a few farms outside Impfondo; given that the population OTL is around 40,000, my guess is that after the famines and suchlike, you shouldn't even be in the tens of thousands.

Ms, the RoC was a democracy; that is to say, it had elections. Sure, said elections may have been rigged, but many were not. And if you will note, I did mention that "apart from the tussle in 1977", the RoC had been farily peaceful before then. 

Having relations with the USSR and other communist states, or adopting socialism, is not a sign that a nation is not a democracy. The largest democracy on the planet spent most of the Cold War siding with the USSR against America.

Impfondo's farming? Please. If you did any in depth research, you would realize how much of that came as a result of foriegn aid and development over recent times. You have, at best, some rudimentary farming. The only reason the state itself could exist is because you have a tiny population. Everyone here would have fled to the CAR, to Brazzaville, and the few who remained would mostly have died. A 90% population drop rate is accurate.

Zaire, in contrast, as you said, is not in the perfect place for farming, but it was in a better one than Impfondo at the time, with more modern equipment, and, as an army base, a MUCH MORE STABLE STATE. Furthermore, it's in a great place for exploting the low-land in the area. It may not be extremely arable, but at least it isn't a JUNGLE!

You don't mention them fighting with guns. If you really think they could have fought all of that with spears, you've got a sharp learning curve ahead of you. Those wars are way too big. Eliminate them.

May I suggest, again, that you try and finish one article before moving on to the next?

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  14:13, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

"the RoC was a democracy; that is to say, it had elections". But that's wrong, it didn't have elections. It didn't have a single election as a socialist nation. In fact there have only been four elections in the nation's entire history, with only one occurring before doomsday. 

As for farming, I recommend you do some research yourself. The region grows 1500 tons of cocoa annually, which is actually lower than usual due to the sporadic market and the collapse of one of the region's largest companies. They have the potential to grow that much of cocoa alone, and given that there's no longer foreign markets like France, I doubt they would need to grow cash crops as heavily. Let's say hypothetically these fields began to grow wheat, as an example. Some quick math tells us that they grow 3306933.93 pounds of cocoa, which is 52910942.9 ounces. Let's average the weight of a cup of flour at five ounces. This means that they grow about 10582188.6 cups of floor. If each person received a subsistence diet of 1,200 calories a day, roughly three cups of flour at 400 calories each, they could feed 3,527,396.2 people from that yield alone. Not to mention I didn't even factor in the crops that the region already grows. Much of this region is actually self sufficient, with the only imports really coming from the Ubangi River. Make up your mind Guns, you said above they aren't near the river, which is it? Do they grow their own food or do they use the river? Because you seem to be saying they don't grow their own food but also aren't on the river. As said in the article, the region also grows manioc, banana, taros, and many more, mostly in the traditional sense. In ATL however you have large scale plantations no longer growing cash crops, from which most of these gangs derive their power. They pay for and support the large scale production of crops, taking the place of the former giant corporations that in OTL exploited this region for huge exports of cash crops. The problem with growing food in Zaire is that there is little to no potential for crop growth. Again most of good farmland that the city relies on in OTL is controlled by Cabinda.

About weapons, there are approximately 100,000 privately owned guns in the Republic of the Congo. There are an estimated 34,0003 to 73,500 unlawfully held guns that are in existence here. Meanwhile there is another reported 96,900 guns in the hands of defense forces, and 5,808 firearms in use by police. In real life there are also gun manufacturers in the Republic of the Congo. At the modern day they are only required to have a valid license. Manufacturing is small yes, but there is still an annual US$141,489 worth of guns exported from the Republic of the Congo, as estimated by Customs. There is another US$403,796 worth of imports. There is also smuggling and illegal transportation of firearms into the country, which is estimated by authorities to be moderate and substantial. Meanwhile you have the Democratic Republic of the Congo just to the east, which has an estimated 300,000 to 800,000 privately owned guns, 123,120 reported in defense forces, and 81,004 held by police. They have a similar manufacturing policy, and many also make homemade guns. I'd imagine the homemade firearm industry in both countries would heavily increase, the demand at least would. In OTL it is rated to be moderate. The Democratic Republic of the Congo also has a small amount of imports and exports, and a heavy amount of smuggling. Illegal transportation here is estimated to be very high. With some major cities on the Congo bordering the boundaries of Impfondo, and with the Ubangi River being a transportation system for firearms, it's really not that hard to imagine some guns in Impfondo's possession.

Try to finish one article, you say? What do you think I'm doing? Mscoree (talk) 15:05, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Very informative read guys. I don't really want to get involved, but out of curiosity, what is that largest democratic state that you speak of, Guns? Fritzmet (talk) 15:20, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

That awkward moment when Guns proceeds to change and expand Zaire based on my input. Need to read it, but looks like a good addition. At Fritzmet, I am unsure what he meant. Mscoree (talk) 16:06, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

You really didn't read it, did you?

Most of that was based of discussions on the talkpage. Ben, Mitro, LG, and myself all contributed. In 2012. I may take a long time to get around to things, but, uhh, yeah. I get them done.

Ms, I mean those 20 other proposals you've dropped.

One moment while I work up the energy to read that wall of text.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  16:12, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Let me know when you get around to reading that. Also about the refugees, that word only appears on the page once, no need to make a big deal about it. I mean even if Zaire is truly amazing and very few people flee (although again I'd imagine some would during/after any large wars. Some.), there would still be some people who arrive in Impfondo, even if as a stopping point to get somewhere else. More importantly though, and this is mostly what I meant when I used that word, is that people who lived in the middle of nowhere, who were reliant on the city or its industry, would be sworming the place. The thousands of unemployed, would be fleeing there, searching for work, for answers, for food. If it really makes you mad maybe I can remove it, but it's literally just one word. You make it sound like I am implying that 100% of Brazzaville's population fled to Impfondo, when in reality I mean perhaps a few thousand, almost entirely from the northern areas, some on their way to places south. Mscoree (talk) 19:57, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

"Over the next few months cities such as Impfondo became overrun with refugees and traveling settlers from the southern Congo traveling north down the Ubangi River. An influx of settlers led to a housing crisis, leading to the birth of slums and poor quality of life housing around the banks of the river. Settlers also brought crime and conflict, carrying over gang violence from the south, escalating the struggle for power in the city and the efforts to control the few means of transportation or manufacturing in the city."

A) My complaint is with the mention of refugees at all.

B) That's a lot more than "one word". That whole thing is ridiculous. People flee from cities into the countryside, not the other way around. The countryside would have some meagre farms, at least, whiale the city starved; then when the city denizens fled to the countryside, that food gets used up too, widening the refugee crisis. Farms produce food; cities do not. People from the area would leave and either go south to Brazzaville and Kinshasa or north to Bangui.

C) Oh, and also, your page isn't finished. I think I mentioned that.

D) Last thing; your timeline moves too fast in the early stages; "After only a few months without national support, the city of Impfondo was already divided among rival gangs and local warlords who sought to establish a dictatorship under their own rule. Violence within the city increased heavily, with the government struggling to control large portions of the region. Eventually many in the city began to view the government as another major gang, rather than an organized government, lowering its legitimacy as a proper government."

Even in the worst of cases, that should take 2-3 years. Look at Libya; that's how long it should take before the situation reaches this level, slightly over 2 years.

Seriously, though, your history would make the CinemaSins guy insanely busy. You have a government set up, a fall into anarchy, and a popular revolt in LESS THAN A YEAR.

Actually, you can solve both C) and D) with a single move; lengthen out the time periods, and you'll add some 10 years.

Then fill in the last two little sections, add something about it's military, it's economy, it's politics, fill out that damn infobox, and you'll have a decent article.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  23:28, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and you should add cassava under the agriculture section.

Also, you should tone down the agriculture section.

You should make it clearer that this is a small state. You could do that by using your infobox.

That is nationinfo, right? Not your little flight of fancy? Because elsewise that should be changed too.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  23:38, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

A lot of people here need to arrive in Impfondo in order to flee into the countryside. Plus at first some might view the city as a place where food could be distributed. Remember that Impfondo is the loading dock for the hundreds of tons of crops that are shipped the Brazzaville on route to foreign markets. The city itself, at least at first is also a stronghold fo the pre-doomsday government, meaning some citizens might trust for the government to provide or at least handle the situation.

About point "D", remember that this "government", I refer to is basically the remnants of the People's Republic of the Congo. It is in no way a government, hell it is practially a small militant gang that uses that term as its gang name. The first government/governing body isn't officially established until 1987. You said above it should take at least two to three years, so there you go, it took four.

That time frame for the revolts and what not closely follow the OTL time frame. There is government, anarchy, revolt, all in one year, because that's how the region has been prone to act, and because each is a direct consequence of the other. I say many times that there are militant groups and stuff like that, but keep in mind this is really small at times. They establish a government and then a rival faction springs up, sure, but for all you know that rival faction might be eight farmers in the outskirts of the city. Also keep in mind that things move a bit faster because the nation is so small. This nation is essentially the size of a single operation in Libya, so eventhing is scaled down accordingly. 

About finishing the page, I think I clearly mentioned as well that I purposely didn't post or write the parts to the modern day because the nation's later history is somewhat dependent on other pages that need to be written. I wanted to get one page canon/semi finished before I make ten other proposals just to finish it, in case I do something horribly wrong. I mean if you really want me to I can just make a paragraph at the end that skips all the way to the present, like Zaire before you updated it, but I don't know if that really helps at all. 

I'm definately going to add more sections soon. As for the infobox it has the most important information. I even made a flag and coat of arms. Mscoree (talk) 23:56, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

Holy crap, Ms, I have to say, and I'm not trying to be insulting here, but you've got to be joking. The people fleeing into the countryside near Impfondo are ONLY THE PEOPLE LIVING IN IMPFONDO. People living in other cities will flee into the countryside near their own cities. If you don't know how migrations work during a famine, I suggest you look it up before you respond. Also, again, the RoC, at the time, produced most of its food in the south, not the north. Same thing for Zaire. But, of course, that wouldn't matter, since almost nothing grown in the region is harvested in September; most of it is done either in summer or later in the winter. Finally, as I think I've repeated, unlike Brazzaville, Impfondo was not a major military base. The local FLO would have been overwhelmed immediately as the food began to run out and the rioting started.

This gang is part of what used to be the government, right? That is, former government officials? (Because otherwise I call dingo.)

In that case, they would still maintain the most trust. As the food began to run out, in a few months, they would lose power. So far, so good. 

But that fails to explain this paragraph: "The nation had a single party system, which although claiming to be designed after a Soviet-style socialist party-state government, was essentially a military dictatorship, in which the party retained order through the use of armed force. As the months after doomsday progressed, the nation of Impfondo became even more so under a military regime, with the party using force to control parts of the city."

First off, it should be more clear that those are paramilitary forces. Second, that's clearly a government body, not a "gang". Sure, it's a brutal military dictatorship, but if it has that much control over it's populace, thats transcended the term "gang". 

Then you say "After only a few months without national support, the city of Impfondo was already divided among rival gangs and local warlords who sought to establish a dictatorship under their own rule. Violence within the city increased heavily, with the government struggling to control large portions of the region. Eventually many in the city began to view the government as another major gang, rather than an organized government, lowering its legitimacy as a proper government."

Let's pick that apart, shall we?

  1. After stating that the government has used military force to gain firm control of the city, you then completely backtrack and claim that the government doesn't control the city.
  2. You do note a food shortage later on but completely ignore the absolutely devastating effect this would have on the city. In fact, you make the food shortage worse than it would need to be, to the point where either that section needs to be removed or this needs to be a "former" nation, ie it has since collapsed.
  3. The city should be ok for quite some time without national support. Sure, there would be riots, but since there is a clear, strong government (and your food shortage comes later) you should be good for more than just a "few months".
  4. Where, exactly, are these rival gangs springing from, and I repeat, how are they getting enough weapons to fight a bloody gang war? Assuming those paramilitary forces are armed (which, by the way, is not always so), since the government maintains such a tight grip on them, why isn't the government curbstomping these little upstarts so early on? Sure, after a few years, the leakage would be significant, and traders from places like the CAR and Brazzaville might have arrived, but you claim this all happened in a few months, which means the paramilitary forces must have switched sides- but in the preceding paragraph you claim the government has control of those forces! So in a period of a couple of months they completely lost control of their military? Uhh- no.

There is literally no government on Earth that has ever managed to piss off THAT much of their populace in JUST A FEW MONTHS. They could have randomly beat people in the streets! This is ESPECIALLY more true because of the safety point of view. Regardless of Benjamin Franklin's views, people generally choose safety over liberty. In times of safety, they will demand liberty; when the whole world has gone to hell, raiders roam the countryside and the nation has collapsed, they will drop said liberty like an anvil.

So if you call it more than a few months- say, early 1985- when the war starts, and remove those contradictory paragraphs, you should be good there.

"About finishing the page, I think I clearly mentioned as well that I purposely didn't post or write the parts to the modern day because the nation's later history is somewhat dependent on other pages that need to be written. I wanted to get one page canon/semi finished before I make ten other proposals just to finish it, in case I do something horribly wrong. I mean if you really want me to I can just make a paragraph at the end that skips all the way to the present, like Zaire before you updated it, but I don't know if that really helps at all. "

That literally makes no sense. There is no reason you can't write that history here and then elaborate on it elsewhere- in fact, that's what you should do.

This page won't become canon until at least it's history is done. Zaire became a stub because it didn't violate canon and the author left the wiki. Then I took it over, wrote most of what is currently there (almost all of it, actually). This page violates canon AND plausibility. If you were to fix those and then leave the wiki, it would probably get adopted by someone else and then get stubgradded till they finish it. Actually, it would probably get adopted by me, lol. 

Lastly, your infobox is not even kinda complete. No map, for instance. It can be gradded without one (though not till you conform with the NationInfo standard), but don't claim it is even remotely complete. Did I mention the NationInfo standard? We've mentioned this before, Ms. NationBox can be used on your own TL, but on DD we have higher standards, ie NATIONINFO.

Oh, and 90,000? WAY too high. I'd say 30-35,000 is that absolute upper mark. Most likely less. 

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  21:48, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't know where you got that rubbish about this area being some "agricultural heartland".

"Likouala is almost covered with dense and often flooded forests of lakes and very full of fish ponds. Its ground is argillaceous and sandy by places. The north of the department belongs to the mountainous Massif Oubanguien... The principal food crops are the manioc, the banana, the taros; as well as products of gathering. One also produces the coffee, the cocoa and the palm oil. The crop year of last year yielded 1500 tons of cocoa. This production is falling because of the irregularity of the marketing of the products and the closing of the principal company which ensured the marketing of the cocoa in the department, Congo Otto-Export... Geographic insulation is a handicap. Transport is very limited; the river port and the airport are the only access routes."

That's from wikipedia, but a quick websearch quickly confirms all of that information.

Damn, maybe 30,000 was high.

Remember, this controls only around maybe half the Impfondo district and a fourth of the Epena district, tops. The CAR has taken over the Dongou district. So off the bat there's only maybe 300,000 people living here OTL. Combine that with this new information, and I'm actually going to go ahead and say that this state is completely implausible. 

That's especially true when you consider that a significant amount of the crops grown are NOT edible. In fact, the World Bank has noted that the oil industry in the north has actually caused food crops there to be neglected, meaning that even though the south grows enough food crops for a surplus THERE (that's in addition to the oil, cocoa, and coffee), they STILL have to import food for the north!

The INCEF also has said that in the Likouala district, logging and growing palm oil and other cash crops are the only viable way to get food because short of massive poaching and hunting, the region doesn't have enough food to support itself.

Well, you say, what if they do poach and hunt? 

Simple answer; after the crops run out, everyone goes hunting at once. The result is a massive extinction in that area, a veritable ecological catastrophe, resulting in deforestation- oh, and everyone's starvation.

Well, Ms, this changes EVERYTHING. I'm sorry, but I see no way for anything to survive in this area. In this area, the population cannot grow enough food to support itself. In the modern day, yes, because A) they have modern tools and B) they have cash crops they can sell to buy food and make a profit. But ATL, they A) don't have any modern tools and B) they HAVE to grow agricultural crops because they can't sell cash crops to anyone, but C) they can't support themselves in the region with agricultural crops.

Any objections to obso?

Any other opinions from my fellow DD writers? Feddy, Impo, LG, others, if I'm wrong, point it out, if I'm not, back me up.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  22:16, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

As you said there is no major military base. It is safe to say then that the military is weak. There is a faction that is weak, spread out, divided, called the "government" (mostly be themselves), that is essentially ex-government/military Republic of the Congo personnel. This gang has its "turf", just like any other. Let's estimate that this gang runs thirty percent of the city or so very closely, basically the area around important stuff. The rest is either run by rival gangs, aligned gangs, or generally lawless/contested. This gang, the government, in its thirty percent, uses some harsh tactics to control its turf, hence the "military dictatorship, in which the party retained order through the use of armed force". Gangs have hierarchy and ranks, and this particular gang claims to use a Soviet-style socialist party-state government, although is again mostly a dictatorship, and can't really do much considering they aren't a "nation" yet. They claim, key word is claim, to control a nation, one that is the successor to the Republic of the Congo, but has little to no control (like how in the beginning of the War of the Five Kings in Game of Thrones there are many rival houses, with the head one; Baratheon, controlling little of the nation. Or how North Korea and China both claim to be the only Korea and China, respectively.) "with the party using force to control parts of the city", the key word is parts. They don't even control the entire city, hence the status as a gang. "that's clearly a government body", as I said they are a gang with hierarchy and leadership, like any other. The next paragraph you pasted about the city being divided is reiterating this point. Certain groups, like the "government" control certain parts of the city, and of the future nation.

I'm not backtracking, maybe I didn't make it clear when I said parts and should to add more about that, but at the start no real government or gang controls the entire city, let alone the nation. I'm not sure what you mean about food shortages, I mean you said I ignored it, but then you said I overstated it. Which is it? Also all that was way before the nation, and was mainly because of inefficient distribution and general corruption from poor or lack of leadership, not an actual lack of food, or potential food, production. Where are these gangs springing from? Well when the actual government, ie the Republic of the Congo, collapsed the city was left to its own devices. The remnants of the military/government eventually formed into this ruling gang, whereas other parts of the military, or the general citizenry, organized into others. Rich people who controlled the fields, the towns, ie already existing gangs (don't tell me there isn't crime in the Congo), and the weapons became their own factions, equally as equip to become the legitimate "government", at least in theory. The primary faction cannot curb stomp the start ups because they can barely control themselves. There is no uniform leadership, so when the military collapsed it went every which way, with the majority of it eventually making up this government, but they were still weak, especially since they only control a small portion of the overall resources, like food. "There is literally no government-" let me stop you right there. There is literally no government. Basically the area is somewhat lawless until 1987. The only "law" is organized crime's law. The people with the guns, or the food, or the water, calling the shots, with no one gang really getting an advantage until 1987; the Democratic faction, which is explained in the article. Has more to do with the main gang in control of the important urban stuff already collapsing, and the Democrats controlling or allying with the sparsely populated but agricultural areas, than successfully beating them in combat. Basically the Democrats fight a Vietnam War-style conflict, only replace the United States with a group of a few hundred or thousand Congolese soldiers.

About finishing the page, I think you misunderstood what I said. You want me to develop the history of the page until 2014, but I'm trying to tell you the late 1990s and 2000s will basically be focused on foreign influence. It's like asking me to write the history of the United States in the 1940s, but World War 2isn't canon, or any of the nations. Sure I can write it on the page, but in order to actually figure out the ideas and what is going to happen, I need to flesh out some others. I'd rather finish the history of Impfondo as an independent state and get that approved, than write the history of Impfondo as an independent state plus unorganized snippets of several other potential nations. At the very least what I'm saying is I'd like Impfondo to be checked for errors (like what we're doing right now) and make a sort of foundation, than come on here and create an even more convoluted page. One thing at a time essentially. And when I say checked I mostly mean a "yeah that is all good so far". Back to my earlier analogy, I can't write World War 2 (on the page or otherwise) if the history of the United States in general is contested, that would just be a waste of time and could be completely misdirected.

Can you link me to this rule about NationInfo? I seem to be able to find a bunch of 1983 pages that use other templates instead. By higher standards you mean some use NationInfo, some use others identical to mine? Looks like mine would be fine then. Doesn't really seem like it is required at all, judging from all these non-NationInfo canons, nor does the word standard even mean required.

You just edit conflicted me, so I will now post what I was going to see and then read your additions. Mscoree (talk) 22:38, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

You literally just copy and pasted the thing I was quoting from WIkipedia to you. I never once said or claimed they were an agricultural heartland, I was just presenting the facts. So now apparently the CAR has invaded (thanks Guns for that addition), but there is still a lot of farmland. As for why they would invade the couple thousand people by traversing through a jungle, at heavy cost to them, but okay then. As you just said edible crops are neglected because of the demand for cash crops. As I've now said several times, they no longer grow cash crops (as much). Nations like France no longer exist, ie no one to buy cash crops or oil on the large scale. Food is now the new cash crop, the thing tha tpeople the need, the thing the gangs literally need to survive and therefore prop up. As you just said (and what I said several paragraphs ago) they grow 1500 tons of cocoa a year, which considered low, and of cocoa alone, let alone other crops. Again for the second time if that was wheat instead of cocoa they could support about 3,500,000 people on a subsistence diet. There are also dozens of crops, hunting, fishing etc.

Also that 90,000 people thing is kind of a placeholder, since certain people are pushing me to finish the infobox. Just so you know in OTL the area I am including has a population of almost 1.5 million people...You said I needed to kill of a good percentage of the population. Is 99.4% not high enough for you? Mscoree (talk) 22:46, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

You quoted NOTHING from the INCEF and the World Bank, both of which have stated that the region doesn't have the land to GROW sufficient agricultural crops to feed the populace, AS I SAID. Wheat != Cocoa. 

I'll thank you to do some god damn research. The CAR never "invaded"- when it put itself back together, it included land from the surrounding nations, something, BTW, that was mentioned by the person who first wrote that article, years before you joined! Not me! If you must be insulting, don't be stupid about it.

They have no CHOICE but to grow cash crops, as I stated, backed up by the world bank and the INCEF.

You claimed that "Looking at a map of sustainable development in Africa it appears that areas around the Ubangi and Congo are poor locations for farming, but the north and west (which are in this nation) are on par with the south or better, meaning that overall Impfondo has nearly as much potential farmland as your nation of Zaire would" but that is PATENTLY false, as I have proved.

No, they can't, because it is hard to grow crops like wheat in this reason, hence the reason why they DO NOT.

The few crops they grow that actually are edible, like manioc, cannot be grown in sufficient quantities to feed the whole region. 

I'm taking it that you just skimmed my post, because I refuted everything you said there itself.

Ms, this is NOT plausible. Face facts; first off, your system of warlords and etc wouldn't work, because those warlords would just declare independence and rule tiny farm towns which they can control and which might, just barely, be able to support themselves. Why also support a city? 

Your wars are ridiculous given that apart from a few poorly armed paramilitary forces there would be no weapons in the region.

Your nation cannot support 90,000 people.

You use OTL modern day statistics, but you make three crucial mistakes;

  1. First off, different crops grow in different ways. You can grow more palm oil than you can manioc, taro, or cassava in the region. 
  2. Second, you forget that those modern day statistics- where, BTW, the area is actually a fairly MINOR agricultural land, even OTL- include A) development aid and B) modern day tools, neither of which you have. If they region can't support itself entirely with MODERN tools, what do you think they'll do with medieval ones?
  3. Lastly, you forget that all the people would have starved to death in the first year or so. DD happened a couple of months after the harvest season for the three big agricultural crops. As a result, what food the city now has needs to be imported- but on DD those imports stop, so the denizens of Impfondo are forced to flee into the countryside, where there is food- but not enough to sustain all of them. The city-dwellers eat all the harvest, all the saved food, the seeds, and all the pre-mature crops, meaning that NOT ONLY WILL THE CURRENT STORES BE DEPLETED BUT THEY CANNOT BE REPLENISHED!

Not. Plausible.

Ms, FFS, when you have so many other bloody articles that are almost canon, why the **** can't you focus on them instead of going after an article that is patently implausible and also, in it's current form, defies canon?

The only way I can see this work is if you abandon the nation thing and instead decide it's some sort of small collective of villages, ruled by said gangs. You'd be able to keep most of your immediately-after-DD history, and it'd make sense. Max population might be 2000-3000. Very, very small, probably only in the Impfondo district. 

Otherwise, this deserves Obso.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  23:04, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Oh and as for your "placeholder"... even if we ignore the fact that your state is implausible in and of itself, based on canon and the plausible size your state could have expanded too, AS I SAID, the territory OTL has approximately 300-400,000 people. This is not the entire Likoula Department, this is parts of the Epena and Impfondo districts. Let's not be misleading.

Furthermore, that 90% figure was based on the information you gave me about the agriculture of the reason. Since that was patently false (I'm assuming you don't claim to be more of an expert on farming in the Republic of the Congo than the World Bank and the INCEF?), I'd say 99.4% is actually a bit too high. 95% is better.

Only it should be 95% of 300,000, not of 1.5 million; around 15000.

MATH!- presented by         Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  23:18, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I think we've both gotten a little bit too angry over this. Since it's at this point your sources against mine, I see two ways we can go from here- either we can continue this argument, at which point we'll both get more and more offensive, disrupting the whole TL, and probably getting us both banned, or we can invite in others to mediate.

I have left messages on many of the prominent DD members who have been active over the past few months. Not all, but many.

I estimate that at least 4-5 of them will show up and leave messages here. Based on what they say, we'll see.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  00:12, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Don't even talk about mathematics considering those series of equations I did above. Anyway, here is a quick summary of my argument:

An Explanation of Food Production in the Republic of Imfondo

I believe that the Republic of Impfondo has the potential and ability to grow a significant amount of agricultural products, capable of feeding a moderate population. This is based on both OTL statistics from the Republic of the Congo's history and the modern day, as well as information on the region's geographic, ecological, and economic situation in the African continent.

Firstly let's talk briefly about the necessary steps that the modern day Republic of the Congo takes to feed its population. The nation has a 2014 population of about 4,662,466 people 1, making it the 125th most populous nation, at a density of about 12.8 people per kilometers squared. The Republic of the Congo imports a number of products from foreign nations, the largest being the nation of France at 19.2% of imports. Primarily the nation imports capital equipment, construction materials, and foodstuffs. One of the main reasons for importation of food in the modern day is the diversification of food, the consumer's ability to purchase readily available foreign foods unavailable locally. This also is beneficial to the locals, in that it overall tends to improve nutrition as well as add market value. The United States also heavily imports food, according for about 5.4% of the nation's modern imports, for consumer consumption and use as feed.

During the Cold War until the modern day the Republic of the Congo was one of many nations whose economy is largely dependent on foreign exports, with nations setting up extractive businesses for the purpose of exporting goods locally grown or collected in the Congo to foreign nations, such as France and the United States. Foreign industry since 1960, when the Republic of the Congo officially achieved independence, have accounted for a large portion of the nation's economy and industrial sector. At the time of doomsday, the nation was a self declared socialist nation, meaning large portions of the nation's industry was owned or operated by the government. It is also important to note that during this time the nation had little aid from the international organizations, albeit aid from Cold War powers, For on the World Bank and International Monetary Fund provided economic support following economic programs put in place by Sassou Nguesso, who took power following the fall of the People's Republic in 1991. So the first real instances of large scale aid did not heavily begin until far after doomsday, and was again halted in 1997, with the outbreak of civil war. Upon Nguesso's return to power further cooperation with international financial institutions was established, again after the point of divergence. Please note that I do not claim to be a better source than the INCEF or the World Bank, but at the same time you cannot claim that I rely too much on modern day statistics and then quote an international organization's modern day assessment, one who had no influence in the region at the time of the point of divergence.

In OTL the nation has a very large petroleum industry, which since the 1980s has been heavily developed and supported by the government. Also heavily developed by the national government, alongside and in partnership with foreign businesses, is the growth of cash crops, such as cocoa and coffee. Every year thousands of tons of agricultural products are exported from the nation for the purpose of generating profit for foreign or major corporations. The Likouala Region, which this hypothetical nation includes, grows about 1500 tons of cocoa annually. This is only in this one region, about 66,044 km2 in size, and not including any other agricultural products.

As I said above, let's say hypothetically these fields began to grow wheat, as an example. Some quick math tells us that they grow 3306933.93 pounds of cocoa, which is 52910942.9 ounces. Let's average the weight of a cup of flour at five ounces. This means that they grow about 10582188.6 cups of floor. If each person received a subsistence diet of 1,200 calories a day, roughly three cups of flour at 400 calories each, they could feed 3,527,396.2 people from that yield alone. It is also important to note that this region is very capable of growing wheat, as an example, but also grows rice, maize, peanuts, and vegetables heavily, to the point where all these noted crops are heavy exports. Rice for one has a caloric value as high as wheat.

Let's talk briefly on wheat. It is reported by many articles 2 that production of wheat in sub-Saharan Africa has only reached about twenty five percent of its potential, meaning that wheat, or any major grain capable of being grown in the region really, is heavily profitable and productive. As the non-profit International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center stated, "Sub-Saharan Africa has extensive areas of land that are suitable for profitably producing wheat under rain-fed conditions". During the period of time from 2006 to 2008 about six million metric tons of wheat a year were produced in sub-Saharan Africa, originating from twelve nations. In October of 2012 agricultural experts met in Addis Abada to discuss a potential future of sub-Saharan Africa as a major wheat producer. 3 It should also be noted that one of the reasons why wheat is not as prolific in the region is because of the the lowering of international prices and the rise of food aid, which all did not begin until the 1980s, meaning that wheat production would also not be as low as it would become without doomsday. Again one of the main reason's why the region is produces low amounts of wheat is not because it is unable to, but because it has no need to, not with cheap imports from North America and Europe making the market unstable. As one expert, Hans Joachim Braun, stated about Nigeria, a nearby nation, “The minister of agriculture has declared that Nigeria would like to be self-sufficient for wheat production within the next six to eight years. And Nigeria is the biggest wheat importer in sub-Saharan Africa. And historically, Nigeria was producing wheat in the 60s and 70s, but then this industry was basically killed when the very cheap and subsidized wheat was made available and exported to Africa."

Wheat is a cereal grain, and one of many crops. According to most projections 4, the Republic of the Congo is not only a prime region for the production of cereal grain like wheat, but is also expected to increased heavily over the next few decades. Take a look next at this projection from 1996, showing potential land in the African continent aroudn this time. As you can see most of the eastern sections of this nation have very low potential to grow crops. This is mainly because this region is more urbanized, and this region would probably be the most depopulated. The population that would remain would be dependent on hunting and fishing instead. Fishing in OTL is already a large industry, supporting thousands along the Ubangi River and other bodies of water. The Western sections of the nation however have medium land potential, about as much so as the nation of Zaire. This means that overall, although spread out and primarily in the west, the nation has the potential to grow crops on the same scale as Zaire. Looking at more modern projections 6 we see that aside for the wetlands the north is dominated by large portions of forests and/or potential farmland. Although not ideal for future expansion of farmland without greater amounts of effort, this area can be converted to potential farmland if needed.

Let's talk next about the OTL farmland already in existence. Putting aside the already existing farmland producing products like cocoa, which again could feed over 3.5 million people if it was wheat or rice, or any other number of crop native to the area, and putting aside hundreds of tons of other cash crops produced in the region, the region still products a large amount of food. Aside from an airport, which is a modern addition, the city of Impfondo itself is only connected to Brazzaville by the Ubangi River. Overall the north has a modern population of about 1,500,000 people, or about thirty three percent of the nation. A large portion of this population, which is isolated from large cities, is largely self sufficient, utilizing traditional techniques of farming. Thousands of tons of cash crops, like I said are also produced and exported by large corporations. After doomsday however nations like France and the United States, and their respective corporations, no longer exist. With dozens of giant companies and their plantations collapsing with no where to sell their cash crops, given that the starving locals would probably not be buying large amounts of sugar, cocoa, or coffee, this set the region on a far different economic path.

With no foreign markets or corporations, the selling of cash crops ends. Remember these industries were specifically created by foreign nations and corporations for the purpose of acquiring these crops to make a profit. They cannot sell cocoa on a large scale with no market to sell it to, meaning there are now many large scale plantations which would be converted to the production of other crops. As stated in the article, the commodity of food becomes like the new cash crop. Gangs rise using the small amount of weapons they have to hold these plantations, similar to the early feudalism model, with large manors and their warlords protecting the farmers and peasants, in exchange for working the fields. Also it is important to note, as I did in the article, the rise of slavery and human trafficking, which impacts the production of agricultural products.

Large scale plantations and fields, once growing cocoa for France and the United States, began putting their fertilizer, mechanisms, and good land toward the productions of potentially thousands of tons of wheat, rice, vegetables, and other products. Again, one of the main reasons why the region does not create large amounts of food in OTL is that they have no need to. There is no reason to spend money investing in the production of wheat toward the create of a self sufficient national market when nations like the United States, with cheaper prices and greater reach, can export thousands of tons of wheat into your nation. Here there is no United States, meaning the easily capable land must be worked in different ways, toward the creation of domestic agricultural products. Another reason why farming is more isolated and traditional, with the exception of large plantations, is the lack of infrastructure. Thousands of people in the cities of the Republic of the Congo are unconnected from farmland, making transportation difficult. This is why the north is mostly sufficient and separate from the south, and why cities in the Congo are hard to feed. The "breadbasket" of the Republic of the Congo, the Bouenza Department, north of Brazzaville, only recently began building heavy infrastructure in the modern day. The Agricultural Development and Rural Roads Rehabilitation Project (ADRRP) created by the national government with World Bank assistance has increased the nation's ability to feed itself, albeit faster and more efficiently with foreign support. As the World Bank stated, until 2013 no road existed in the region, with the new road allowing new found access to farmlands 7. Keep in mind that this is the exact region that would be crucial to the growth of your nation of Zaire, and they are just getting to the point where they can support Brazzaville in terms of infrastructure.

In Impfondo the creation of infrastructural projects is one of the largest differences. These are spotty and poor quality, but the roads are crucial to supporting this nation. These roads are mainly built out of necessity, essential steps toward self sufficiency, connecting farms to cities like never before. This process is also heavily influenced by the bushmeat crisis. In OTL the pursuit of bushmeat, hunting of exotic animals, has grown exponentially, and has caused a number of consequences in the region. Basically the culmination of poor living conditions and lack of proper education on health and safety in the Congo,has caused many native Congolese hunt and consume wild and exotic animals. In OTL urban settings like Kinshasa are the center of commercial bushmeat trade, and the continued urbanization of Africa has only expedited this process. The search for bushmeat has caused natives to push deeper into the jungles, leading to the rise of extensive logging businesses, causing massive deforestation. In this ATL you can make the argument that with food scarce more people would begin hunting. In the article I describe how the logging industry is hugely growing, as more and more enter the jungle, supplying the towns with lumber for construction. With each forest cut down that makes another road, another field, only increasing process toward the creation of farming.

I hope that helped to show that the region is both capable of producing agricultural products and feeding a moderate population after doomsday. Remember that the region already grows thousands of tons of food and crops, and that the region is capable of expanding agriculture in the coming years. Remember that one of the main reasons the region does not already grow large amounts of food is that it is cheaper and more efficient to acquire food elsewhere, but that the region is capable of being self sufficient in the future without the introduction of foreign markets. Sorry for the long and rambling rant, but hopefully that gets my thoughts across. Will probably add more soon. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 01:10, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, you're missing the same thing again and again!

Yes, the region can grow x amount of cocoa, coffee, and palm oil. THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN GROW FOOD CROPS.

Firstly, wheat is off the boards entirely, it cannot grow here properly even with modern technologies. So let's look at the alternatives.

  • Manioc/Cassava: Less than half the calories per cup than wheat, and it cannot be grown in most of this area in Impfondo, as it is precluded by not just mountains but also forests. Slash and burn deforestation, which you suggest, doesn't work, and has been proven not to work.
  • Taro: Not even 1/6 as many as wheat, even though it can be grown more. Taro would actually provide fewer calories that Manioc.
  • Bananas: the worst of both categories, as they provide the fewest calories and cannot be grown as widely.
  • There are a few others grown here, like sugar and rice, but in 1983 they were grown in such small quantities that we can discount them. In any case, none are suited here.

Those are the three crops that grow in this area. Assuming 0 imports, I find that based off estimates from the World Bank approximately 40-50,000 people in the region here can be fed at maximum capacity given that modern tools are COMPLETELY unavailable. BUT! That doesn't take into account the refugee crisis you would have, not to mention to issue which I myself mentioned- because this is post-harvest, the refugees from the city would be forced to flee out into the countryside after a few weeks, where they will have to eat premature crops and what remaining stores there are, meaning that all the food will be gone at once and THERE WILL BE NO REPLENISHMENT.

Yes, that breadbasket only started building infrastructure over the last 20 years; but even before that, it was the heartland of the RoC's agricultural production. The North barely produces ANY of the country's exports.

Look at the facts. The production of Palm Oil takes place mostly in the north, and is one of the most common crops in the Likouala department. It's almost unused in the RoC because there isn't much need for it. 

Palm oil is around .03% of the RoC's exports. The RoC exports around 12 bn$ worth of goods every year. The going rate for palm oil is around 621$ a metric ton,

This means that, with MODERN equipment and MODERN infrastructure, most of which was only built in the past 20 years, This gets us around 55,000 tons of palm oil; which, BTW, is easier to grow and harvest that most other crops in the region.

Let's convert this to Manioc. Even assuming a 1:1 ratio- and that is WAY, WAY off- we'd get 55,000 tons of manioc. Actually, we'd get something closer to 20,000 or less. Keep in mind, this is the whole nation, not just Impfondo.

The US grows around 58 million tons of wheat a year. Of that, around 24 million goes to surplus. The remainder feed a population around 100x that of the RoC. In fact, that's not true, because the Americans also eat other food.

You can do the math from here. Even if all the palm oil in the RoC was converted to manioc- and that's insanely hard- it would not be enough to feed the population of the Likouala Department.

Ms, the fact is that the reason this area grows cash crops is because IT CANNOT GROW AGRICULTURAL CROPS AND FEED ITSELF.

If Math, the INCEF, and the World Bank all together can't dissuade you, I don't know what to say.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  02:00, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Guns I also provided sources from math and the World Bank, among many others. I see you completely missed me explaining how the region can and does produce wheat, but choses not to heavily. I guess you missed how this region is expected to heavily increase in production, and how nations in sub-Saharan Africa could become self sufficient in wheat production. 20,000 tons of Manioc is 2,2046,000 meals, or about 60,400 people fed from that one crop exclusively for an entire year. Add on the thousands of tons of wheat, the thousands of tons of vegetables and other foodstuffs...just read what I wrote. Also by addition, I meant thanks for adding to the conversation.  Mscoree (talk) 02:24, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Guns you told Ms not to rely exclusively on OTL, and then you use the OTL World Bank. Your quote from them is hardly even relevant. All you proved is that oil industry halts agricultural industry, but ATL it's the opposite. You took this irrelevant quote and are now acting like Ms is disputing the World Bank, when in reality he probably dismissed it for being unimportant. Don't just throw names around for credibility. Tr0llis (talk) 02:29, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

I will reply to those, but not for a few days- I'm transferring my laptop from Windows (Death to Bill Gates) to Ubuntu (Yay Linus Torvalds!). I'd prefer OSX (RIP Steve Jobs) but the hackintosh builds for my laptop suck. Anyway, as a result I'll be gone for a couple of days. This does NOT mean I am dropping my objection- moot point since I'll be back before the 1 week deadline.

Ms, for the last effing time, wheat does not grow in the region- the only three crops that can support life properly here are manioc, bananas, and taro.

        Centriflag   Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  22:41, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Except wheat does grow here, and it is well documented by several sources, including an entire conference of experts that it is fully possible and expected in the coming future. Again, they deliberately choose not to grow wheat because of the climate of the global economy, not because they are physically incapable. Also as I said, wheat was an example, substitute basically any locally grown food there. It certainty isn't just one food across the entire nation. Mscoree (talk) 14:16, September 8, 2014 (UTC).

I talked to Guns following his previous statements and he said the only problem was the refugee bit. I changed that up so it shouldn't be a problem anymore, and also finished the history. Any objections to graduation? Mscoree (talk) 18:49, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

For now, yes. Call it because of the disturbing amount of things to checkup on in it, lol. Lordganon (talk) 12:33, November 23, 2014 (UTC)

Lordganon, have you gotten a chance to read through the page yet? I don't mean to rush you, but I'm curious to know what you think, and I'm not really clear if the page graduates or not (according to some users this isn't a real objection, but I don't mean to cause trouble or risk consequences by ignoring this). Please get back to me soon, Mscoree (talk) 00:12, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

MY objections are real. You DIDN'T fix mine.

        Centriflag   The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  00:48, December 3, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I believe after talking with Guns all the objections have been addressed. Any other objections to canon? Mscoree (talk) 22:58, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

Virtually none of the people mentioned would be there, and you can say that they plant seeds or the like all you want, that does not make it work. A hint: the seeds have to come from somewhere... and they won't be here.

Moreover, while wheat does grow here, not as well as those experts are claiming. Take what those groups say with a grain of salt, imo.

Key problems, though: Seeds and the people.

Will have more later.

Lordganon (talk) 15:26, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Nine Inch Nails

A page for Nine Inch Nails that I am working on (still a work in progress).

Also, does anyone have an suggestions so far? I was thinking that since Trent Reznor lives in a fairly isolated area, the band would not catch on until later. Is it possible to have Reznor eventually play shows in Europe, South America, or Australia, or find some sort of commercial success there? When would this happen? Mscoree (talk) 22:58, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

See article talk page~ Lordganon (talk) 15:14, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Tangier and Straits of Gibraltar Zone

Made a proposal page for the Straits of Gibraltar. I believe the history matches up since I read up on all the articals about Spain, Morocco, Scily wars, ADC, ect. but I might have missed something so I am open to any suggestions and comments

Mostharmless (talk) 20:31, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

...No, it does not match. A lot of it, not even close. Lordganon (talk) 16:22, March 20, 2015 (UTC)

could you please explain a little bit more?

Mostharmless (talk) 20:35, March 20, 2015 (UTC)

Hello? Lordganon are you out there? I am still waiting for you to elborate... I can't fix the article if you don't tell me whats so wrong about it...

Mostharmless (talk) 22:35, April 12, 2015 (UTC)

Formula One

I have started on this page and I think it matches up with everything so far. Matt121 ??? Matt125 (Talk) 03:47, April 18, 2015 (UTC)

Largest Cities and Capitals by Nation

I put together a page with a list of largest cities by nation and the capital cities as well for each continent to accompany the Cities page.

Question: Would Alexandria be considered part of Africa, because it is in former Egypt, or part of Europe because it is a city in Greece? Daeseunglim (talk)

Africa. Think of it as like the otl case with Russia and Turkey. Lordganon (talk) 16:48, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Guymon

Survivor state located in the Oklahoma Panhandle. CheesyCheese (talk) 02:38, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Lehighton (1983: Doomsday)

I turned it into a raider/gang controlled nation that is strong enough to hold off Reading and Susquehanna for the time being, but not for much longer. Very poor and isolated. Military is only strong because of numbers. Slightly more powerful than Susquehanna's Defense Forces simply due to outnumbering their military 3-1 with reserves, but Susquehanna's active forces outnumber them 3-2. Economically isolated, mainly relying on slave farming and raiding other nations for food and supplies. No electricity, no automobiles or aircraft due to isolation and lack of fuel. No diplomatic relations with anyone, and very isolated.

2/3 of population is gang members, other 1/3 are serfs and slaves. Very small amount of territory under their control, and the gangs divide the territory amongst themselves. Gangs are survivors from Hazleton, Allentown, and from roving gangs that formed after Doomsday.

Daeseunglim (talk)

UEFA Euro 2012

I think this might be ready for graduation. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 07:47, January 2, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Objections? Lordganon (talk) 03:10, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher

I've just created a page for Margaret Thatcher. I've been able to gather most information, but some is missing. I'm assuming she still passed away in 2013, and am going to ask on the Canada page if it is possible the Canadian Government would grant her the title of Baronness, as the UK did in OTL. Bryce3 (talk) 15:33, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

Good overall - only thing I think it needs is after 1995 history, but past that... Objections to stubgrad? Lordganon (talk) 03:10, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

British Monarchy

Would anyone be opposed if I made some pages surrounding various British Monarchs, eg. Henry Percy, Queen Anne, etc.? Alternatively, could I make a generic page simply on the British Monarchy, and how it's splintered. If not, that's fine, but if noone opposes, i'll start a proposal this weekend.Bryce3 (talk) 11:03, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

Made the page - I intend to put parts about the various monarchies splintered from it Bryce3 (talk) 16:02, March 5, 2016 (UTC)

Objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 03:09, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Frankie Boyle

I made a page on my favourite Scottish comedian, Frankie Boyle a while back. I suffered a massive blonde moment and forgot to post it here, what do you guys think of it? ~ DeviouslyDeviant

Tuscan Armed Forces. 

I have make a page about the Tuscan Armed Forces, is finish. Military of Tuscany Col. James Hsu (talk), 14:23, 05/03/2016 (UTC) 

Norfolk

I've just created page for the English county of Norfolk to serve as a sort of "base" for any small states in the county --Verence71 (talk) 19:35, March 18, 2016 (UTC)

Jabal al-Druze

I've been working on this concept for a little while now, and haven't put it up to the talk page - until now.

In effect, it is a small state in left-over Syria made up of the Druze faithful who live in that area.

From the talk page (since nobody has had any thoughts there): "Hi, folks. So, this is my latest 83DD project nation (for now), and I had a few questions regarding how DD would impact Jabal al-Druze. I saw that there was an EMP over Syria. Would that impact Jabal al-Druze? What about fallout (I saw you said it headed to the sea)? How much economic damage would it do? Would the Syrian governor retain power or would it devolve immediately? For that matter, does anyone know who the Syrian governor of as-Suwayda Governate was on DD?

"Also, what is the economy of as-Suwayda like? I cannot find anything on it, so I'm led to believe it is very pastoral and based upon subsistence farming and the like. Any help on that would be great."

Thank you! Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font><font color=red">Talk to Me!</font>​ 22:50, March 23, 2016 (UTC)

Seborga 

I have made Seborga as a nation of 1983: Doomsday. User:Col. James Hsu, 22:20, 29/03/2016 (UTC) 

Not plausible due to other states. Objections to obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 01:58, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Pointe-Noire (1983: Doomsday)

Pointe-Noire (1983: Doomsday) ----Bronwyn the 2nd (talk) 13:56, May 19, 2018 (UTC)


It's kinda hard to help you if there's no page to review here.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:48, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Subalpine Republic 

I have made the Subalpine Republic in 1983: Doomsday. User:Col. James Hsu 16:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC) 

Even less plausible than the other due to other states. Objections to obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 01:59, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Laughlin

I have made the survivor state of Laughlin, and tried my best to keep it plausible. I understand if you believe it may need some more expansion, which I am willing to do.

--Orange (→My wall!←) 20:39, April 7, 2016 (UTC)

The area has been discussed, before, and I actually worked on making a plausible solution to the colony downstream from the Boulder Dam.  I think it is hidden somewhere in archives and I forget what it was called.  Anyway, it appears that Bullhead City and Laughlin would require the Mohave Valley (app. 40 sq miles of farmland) downstream to support the towns.  

Also, the power for the cities came from two sources, a coal-fired plant that had been being managed badly up to a 1985 accident and the Hydroelectric plant at nearby Davis Dam (forms Lake Mohave).  Both would have been damaged by the EMP, and the coal fired plant would lose the flow of coal slurry when pumps failed.  Likewise its own fuel, used to burn the coal, was natural gas, which would be compromised as well.  The repairs at Davis Dam would include cleaning out Lake Mohave of debris that came down stream from Las Vegas and vicinity. --SouthWriter (talk) 03:26, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

...Except that the area needs power and water to have farmland. Which doesn't work.

Objections to obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 02:02, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Freebooters

I have written an article on a group of Californian raiders called the Freebooters. I have tried to keep  it plausible, but I am of course ready to expand and edit. Onyxspecter (talk) 08:38, April 15, 2016 (UTC)

All righty, don't really see the point of this. Objections to marking it obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 03:09, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Tourism

I have created an article on this after coming up with an idea what happened to the tourism sector during and after Doomsday Gillan1220 (talk) 16:21, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Committee for the Establishment of a Modern and Democratic Parthenopean State (1983: Doomsday)

I have created a page about the committe for established a democratic state in southern Italy 

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 16:54. 

For one thing, the proposed name for the article seems far too long. I am not sure, but perhaps the "CEMDPA" sited in the final paragraph might be appropriate. But then again, typing "Committee" in the search box is all that is needed to fine it.  Check with the naming conventions. SouthWriter (talk) 16:54, June 11, 2016 (UTC)

Ah ok, i have use that name why there is that in the Non-governmental organizations, i think we can delete from Modern to Democratic, why is understable what kind of state the Italian want, is not need of specificated there. If you wanna you can modificated the article.

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 21:16. 

As noted elsewhere, change the name and fix the destinations/headquarters. Lordganon (talk) 03:08, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Australia and the Pacific

Proposal page has been created. Open for suggestions. Gillan1220 (talk) 12:14, March 22, 2016 (UTC)

Objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 03:08, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Mauritius Indian Ocean Territory

Custom signature: Queen Shaz Mavis the Great of New Zealand! (talk) 21:22, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

Mauritius Indian Ocean Territory (1983: Doomsday)

Didcot1 (talk) 03:39, August 16, 2017 (UTC)

WCRB report on the Northeastern United States

.

Aircraft Carriers (1983: Doomsday)

I thought this would be an interesting page, considering their role in international diplomacy, and the various nations with/and or developing them. I have gone off of various nation pages for information, as well as Wikipedia for the pre-Doomsday stats. Some questions and comments that I would like confirmation on, if anyone knows different:

1. On Doomsday, Brazil was operating the Minas Gerais. In OTL, they replaced it in 2001, when it was replaced by the former French carrier, Foch, renamed the Sao Paulo. On Brazil's page it says that they purchased the British carrier, HMS Invincible, and named it the Sao Paulo in this timeline. It does not state a date of the sale, but I would assume it would be in the late 1990's, based on the evacuation date from Britain, as well as the fact it states the carrier sat unused for years. Does Brazil operate two carriers at this point? And they likely have developed the shipyards to build new carriers, as both ships in OTL were decommissioned by this date (2001 and 2005 respectively).

2. Are the Mexican carriers nuclear powered? I know they are Nimitz-class, and the Mexicans could possibly get uranium from the Republic of Texas, but is there a likelihood that the vessels were refitted for conventional operations? Also, the second was launched last year, but as of now is unnamed. Would it be named after a person, or the state it was launched from?

3. The ANZS Commonwealth (formerly the USS Carl Vinson) was due for mid life refueling in 2005 and the refueling/repairs in OTL took place until mid July 2009, and went back in for some other maintenance in October of 2009 (the second likely would not have occurred in ATL), but it would need refueled. This would have been right before the Saguenay War, as well as the Second Sicily War. The ANZCN would know that the refueling/repairs would leave the nation without carrier power for a significant amount of time. I think it would be likely they would either build another carrier, or possibly order one or two of the Remembrance-class carriers from the Celtic Alliance. The carrier is also halfway through it's life cycle, and in OTL is due for replacement in 2030 by an unnamed Gerald R. Ford-class carrier. The ANZCN would be looking into a replacement at this point.

4. Eritrea operates the Eritrea as a light carrier, modified from the former USS Orca. The ship is only 310 feet long, the shortest Merchant Aircraft Carrier (HMS Audacity), only carrying piston driven propeller aircraft was 467 feet long. In OTL, presently, the Thai Navy operates the HTMS Chakri Naruebet, which is the shortest carrier in operation today at 571 feet. The vessel would need a serious overhaul and rebuild to even be close to functional as a carrier.

5. Argentina operated the ARA Vienticinco de Mayo on Doomsday. The British Navy might have targeted the vessel in efforts to prevent an invasion of the Falklands, but I feel like they had bigger fish to fry. In OTL due to the lack of funding, the ship was decommissioned and scrapped after being salvaged to maintain the Minas Gerais. It is possible this occurred in ATL as well, but it is also possible due to the events of Doomsday that the Argentinians decided to keep it operational.

6. I would guess the Indian Navy lost the INS Vikrant during the war with Pakistan.

7. The Soviet Union carrier Kiev was in drydock in Mykolaiv on Doomsday. The city is not listed as a target, but I believe it would have been a target due to the shipyards and military presence, as well as the fact that the list is not complete. The other ships I presume were hunted down and destroyed. The Minsk was in the Indian Ocean around Doomsday, so likely either American or Australian submarines would have targeted the vessel. The Novorossiyka was operated in the Pacific Fleet, and likely engaged and was sunk by the US or Japan.

8. How did the Celtic Alliance Navy get plans for the Invincible-class carrier? Also, what would the defensive armament be?

9. What would the Canadian carrier be named?

10. I am also assuming both Spain and France lost their carriers on Doomsday.

11. Also, the Americans would have lost 13 carriers on Doomsday! Only the USS Carl Vinson and the USS Kitty Hawk survived!

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:20, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

The USS Independence actually survived and is the flagship of the United States Atlantic Remnant Navy. Gillan1220 (talk) 05:28, April 19, 2020 (UTC)

List of Prime Ministers of Malaysia

As a Malaysian, I had wanted to see how the Malaysian premiership would have developed since Doomsday.

Canon stated that Malaysia was ruled by an Islamic radical government from 1987 to 1998, who will be the leaders of that government? The Pas political party and Ibrahim Libya? Gmhappy1000 (talk) 06:26, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Etcetera Entertainment

This is my proposal for a Venezuela based comic company that publishes primarily DC properties. I was inspired by Marvelo Comics, which does not have a page, to make a Latin Spanish company based around DC, and Etcetera Group, the real life dubber of many a DC property. Kelothan (talk) 05:41, September 30, 2018 (UTC)

Some London, UK, articles

London, England (1983: Doomsday)

2015 WCRB report on the former Greater London Area (1983: Doomsday)

Hiroo Onoda 

The Imperial Japanese soldier that didn't surrender until 1974 moved to Brazil afterwards. He lived in Brazil from 1975 to 1984 (OTL) when he returned to Japan after he heard his parents were murdered in 1980. With Doomsday occuring however, it appears his second return to Japan will be butterflied away. So unlike OTL where he returned for the second time, he stays in Brazil for the rest of his life. Gillan1220 (talk) 05:25, April 19, 2020 (UTC)

William Shakespeare's plays and sonnets (1983: Doomsday)

Republic of Jefferson

I adopted the municipal states of the pacific and said that brief civil war transformed it into   the republic of Jeffeson. I have made page for the republic of Jefferson. I think it is ready for graduation.

Woah woah hold your horses here, I object to both of your big canon changes. You didn't seem to ask anyone in this talk page about such a major change in the region, that could count as a violation of the editorial guidelines. Just because you adopted it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. All major changes are to be pre-approved by active members of this timeline. Please don't do that again. Also, for the love of God please fix your english. I suggest Antidote english edition, a program to help you see all the small mistakes. Please revert all unauthorized major changes to Doomsday articles. It's not like 1989:War here where you're very active, realism and strict rules are to follow here. Also ending the pacific states on such a radical out-of-nowhere change of tone doesn't make any sense unless you show me a detailed and accurate reasoning based on politico-historico-socio-cultural realities of the region and timeline as to why all would lead there (and the United States to annex it and why Jefferson exist too). Don't forget to sign your posts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:04, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe I went against canon when I made my updates . Instead I believe I built on  where the Mitro left off. Mitro   said that  many people have accused the Civic Rights Party (CRP) of rigging the  election of 2000 and that started holding both peaceful protests and riots. Mitro also said that MSP authorities responded by banning protests, blocking international mail, censuring the media, and having the Pacific Coast Police Unit violently break up any protest. This made it seam like civil war was on the horizon. It also seams that many of the former high members of the civic rights party are former warlords who participated in acts of rape, and cannibalism before the wars. I believe that is likely that former the warlords officially gave up these act after the Municipal States formed, but a few of them are secretly still raping women, and practicing cannibalism. I feel that news of the dirty secrets of the MSP officials becoming public would lead to a full blown civil war. I also feel that news would get out to the ANZC and the SAC and that they would side with the rebels. I also support my changes by saying that GryffindorKrypton support my changes. However to be more accurate he agreed with the idea of a civil war ending with a victory for rebels and that the new MSP government would be made up of Jefferson Nationalists who past a new constitution that would transform the MSP into the Republic of Jefferson. He feel that the details of the scandals I listed were a little over the top and suggested I rephrase them as something less specific like quote " A series of high profile scandals, including violent crimes and racism by the CRP leadership"

Goldwind1 (talk) 12:53, May 22, 2020 (UTC)



First of all, the whole civil war thing. It's unrealistic, with what weapons are potential rebels supposed to fight with after decades of war and destruction and scarcity of ressources? There's no way any organization could form and gather enough popular support and willpower for a violent war against professional killing machines without morals (aka the police force made of criminal motorbike gangs) where they'll surely loose in their eyes (put yourself in their place). They'd preffer a minimum of stability after the pure hell they went through. They've got other things to worry about than racism like any post-war region with few financial ressources. The regime is put in place by two superpowers that finance it and, due to corruption that come with a lack of democratic freedoms, the cash stays in a few peoples pockets. I definitely agree that because of the American Spring protests in 2011, the protests against the rigged elections and the post-crackdown with iron fist rule that came after and the autocratic/criminal power that de facto took afterward almost the entire control of the system, the regime just can't survive in the short-term. But it's just fantasy to assume it will go down as a result of a full-on armed conflict like you show, the odds are against it. A very brief small scale local insurrection that will get crushed by the power in place can however be a realistic way on how events would unfold, and a way to put in action in the collective consciousness the elements of protests that will eventually follow. Diplomatic conflict between the AZNC and the SAC could happen. It could make now that the international headlines now that some form of connected news medias exist (radio and rare television). It could trigger disscussions in the neighbouring states (especially the US).

However, the hostile environement would cause delays in the construction of the rail network and would not permit something as luxurious as a television network: the region is in disrepair. There's just no way. Also, for the US, their word is to only annex states who would want to rejoin them, so they can't intervene. However, the association by the population of the oppressing regime to the two superpowers could create some new appreciation for the United States after two decades of feeling abandonned by them, an association of sovereign democratic stable values to the US instead of their municipal regime or their backers. I'm not quite sure however this would lead to a 2020 annexation as there doesn't seem to be any trend for expansion in the US side.

Also, have a consistant cause for the collapse, it's different in the MSP and the Jefferson page. Have one unified unfolding of events with realistic causes and consequences while taking into account the entire history and sociocultural factors of the region. PLEASE make the paragaphs in Jefferson readable, I just can't understand what's written in it, there's the jeffersons part..okay, then there's a populist, a unionist party it goes all-over the place and I can't follow.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:14, May 22, 2020 (UTC)



You are forgetting that the  MSP is a confederation in which all the cities have their own militias. Yerka and Port Oford are contorled by the Jefferson Nationalist. I feel that the bulk of the rebel army will be made up of the Yerka and Port Oford militias.

GryffindorKrypton support the united states expanding. He said he plans on having the USA absorb Hannibal and Pine Bluff. He says he supports the idea of the MSP/Republic of Jefferson eventually joining the new USA.

I want to see if some else agre with Sigma or me. I believe that GryffindorKrypton sides with. If I am right please say somethingGoldwind1 (talk) 22:12, May 22, 2020 (UTC).


Sigma I made some  changes to the  republic of jefferson page and the MSP pageGoldwind1 (talk) 22:27, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Let me first say: congratulations on improving your writing style! It is now clean, simple and well written (both in syntax and orthograph). Well done! You faithfully listened to my critics and you improved: doing that extra effort showed the message you took this seriously and were ready to listen. Again, good job and hope to see you continue with that good english. Also finally thank you for signing your posts for reference. Now, as for the actual content, now we need to fill it with intriguing yet realistic details on how this all unfolded, all the little factors that would make this quite believable to the reader, making him/her able to put themselves in a world that doesn't feel "fanfictionny"(like I've seen unfortunately many times on other timelines of this wiki) and more like real history with causality and all. Now, sure, they are indeed militias for each municipality but how exactly are they financed and where do they get their weapons and ammos (knowing only Yreka has a permanent professional militia while in the others, it's the criminal bikegangs in police uniforms that apply the law)? Where they brought up during the protests? Are they financed equally? And by whom (the central government civics party or the municipalities, with or without private financing if the historical and sociocultural factor allows it)? There's clearly a big internal political, historical and social divide between the democratic Yreka and the more corrupt autocratic neighbouring municipalities to the point Yreka have a permanent militia to deter other municipalities from taking its democratic freedoms (now that's one unhealthy relationship). I need more of these details knowing the events of the 90s and 2000s in the region (so not so long before the event occurs).  Hear me out, with restrospection given the context you are right that a civil war altough brief would occur (and not the unarmed Hong Kong-style protests that I imagined at first would make the civic rights party capitulate, leading to democratic moral elements of the region, including the jefferson nationalists, to dissolve the MSP and create the Republic of Jefferson: what they are fighting against are no ordinary antiprotest police forces but real easy-about-killing crimelords without morals and civic rights party members that are either bought up or that came from this same toxic soup of people that plagued the region for three decades and wouldn't compromise power until their last breath). Here's how it would go:


Part 1 So, the first free elections in the region in a long time finally arrive in 2010, four years after the armed conflict between the ANZC and the SAC over the Panama canal, one year after the second contract and some months after the civic rights party warmed up the relationship of the country with Siberia, leading to controversy from Jefferson nationalists, democracy activists (especially in Yreka where they are protected) and those still holding a grudge against the soviets for Doomsday and post-Doomsday that deeply affected their whole recent history. Newspapers are divided among party lines. Finances from two wealthy superpowers leads to certain rapid improvements in quality of life (notably with renewable energy although I quite doubt they would have the ressources, manpower and knowledge to build massive projects like new dams), it is mostly distributed to a few loyal members and municipalities of the regime and in influential people in the area (mostly with connections to the whole gangster chapter of its history that led to some very corrupt city states,the MSP being basically a power compromise made in the favor of overall local stability and development when humanitarian aid was urgent back in the 2000s), leading to further division in the fabricated country. The sentiment of being abandonned by the APA in the early 90s is still vivid in the memories of the locals and at the same time the American comitee for the restoration of the USA has chapters that finance up the jefferson voice that is the antithesis to what politics have been up to this point: anticorruption, democratization, centralization over corrupt linked-in-historical-crime city states, warming again to the United States that is recently officialy reborn on their eastern border and using properly the aid of the superpowers. Yet those ideas, altough rising in popularity, are still a minority so it will be curious to see the results of this first free election... NOTE: it's so late right now, I'm tired. I'll continue tomorrow. SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:46, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

Okay now, sorry for being two days late. Anyways:

Part 2

Historical and political precedent being into place, the election was rigged to keep the same party in power. All goes as in the article says except that in early 2011, a short-lived insurrection in one of these falsely democratic cities (prefferably one where it is not under martial law according to the system where some in some places power is in the cities-state, in others law and kills are done on shot by the criminal police) is cracked down by authorities. The tension still being at a record high since the iron fist control is still in place and applied in cities that are mouthpieces of a corrupt power-driven Al Capone style government. Still, the democratic elements of the MSP use their legal authority to disobey the federal government in Crescent City, being more and more pressured by the rest of the MSP elements (the same pressure that push Yreka to have its own permanent army before the election). The United States, still not in the economic boom of the mid/late 2010s, hesitate to intervene because of fears of turning once more into a warmongering imperialist country. Then, in March 2012, the violent public murder of a locally loved teenage student in Port Orford by a clear abuse of power made big news outside the controlled media and brought a second wave of protests that, because of the violent nature of the politicians and police officers in charge that never truly went away from its pre-MSP roots, quickly turned violent and into an armed conflict between militias as political purges lead the central commitee to effectively become a one-party state. Despite being better trained and more transparent in its actions and managing, the democratic side is loosing steam because the majority of the MSP (and therefore having the majority of pre-war sponsored weapons and financing...plus access to the ocean for food to prevent famine) is part of the rogue state side. Given the contrast to neighbouring democratic and stable prospering US in comparaison by the now obvious totalitarian kakistocracian anocratian vibe of the MSP central commitee, popular opinion of the US after decades of anger towards them becomes for the first time positive. Calls are more and more urgent for the US to protect actual democracy and thus repair the mistakes of its past but the US stays neutral...until Yreka is on the last line of defense and beg publically for protection from the US. After a extremely negative perception (even before the war) of the MSP in the US, mediatized numerous masscares including against journalists and now that their frontier is in danger of becoming unstable if they let such a crime-apologist near them to influence and bring crime inside their frontier, the US finally decide to go against the motto of not enter foreign governements territory without the local gov accord and declare war on the MSP when the SAC and AZNC are late to intervene. WIth popular support, this change the balance and, altough not without it's defeats and many deaths, put an end to the corrupt crual state. Nuremberg style trials are made for all captured members of the Civic Rights party and all who supported it (including many many people from the Boss days of the region and the motorbike criminal gangs turned cops, make me know if you don't remember what this is), broadcasted live on radio stations (and television in the US and other NAU countries) for all people in the former MSP region to fully realize the level of atrocity and abuses made by the crooks crew for decades and kill any form of local support for that gang of people and their ideas in the process. It will give a clear picture and paint the historical evolution of the region from mysteries that were in the public's mind about the region. The United States puts in place the Jefferson republic with direct support and supervision from a neighbouring country rather that some faraway superpower who got their hands full on other matters at that time. They impose the rule of law and constitutional mandates that mean to prevent such abuses to happen again, including a ex-nazi style ban of holding any public function for the entire life of convicts of earlier trials and civilians who openly collaborated with them in knowledge of what was going on. The region is economically devastated, so many essential things are destroyed and so many people healths are to be taken care of (including mental health blows like traumas, especially with the children). The US will supervise the economic and social rebuilding of the region until it can take care of itself but by the end of the decade the government openly adopt and send to Torrington a demand to be made a state (thing that will only happen in the early 2020s as there's a big decades-old gap with the developped world to be taken care of first and a public image to improve in order to get popular support for their statehood). That's how I think it would taken care of.

And no, television networks are really not a priority right now (until the early 2020s at least): radios are way more realistic given the context, widespread avaibility and popular use for important stuff and entertainment. I really suggest that part be removed. Budgets are not infinite (especially less in a post-nuclear war world). Could the Jefferson statehood movement flag be officially used for the republic? That could make some interesting local jokes in the population that can still laughs about how they never thought something they considered as a joke up to this point actually became true.

I really want to see very soon your opinions about my suggestions so the MSP last days can finally be fixed. Feel free to demand clarifications as I'm better at explaining with more small and precise questions and answers then with a big 5 kilometers long paragraph



When would the American Intervention begin in the Pacific Civil War. When would the SAC and the ANZC intervene. When would the Pacific Civil war end.


I hope you don't mind if I say that the SigmaHero045 (talk) 06:22, May 28, 2020 (UTC)


The american intervention would begin in the 3rd quarter of the war, when the democratic side is near defeat and Yreka is next in line (imagine like the Korean war when the south governement was surrounded in Busan before the West heavily helped it, creating a comeback for the south). The AZNC would not intervene as I think they are too busy dealing with the damages of the 2010 floodings and that the rogues have taken control of the ocean coast with a navy to guard it. Also, the Jefferson nationalists would never want help from the superpowers that led to the negligent creation that is the MSP, that didn't really do well it's job of maintaining democracy and cleaning up the region of any political power the old gang might still have (instead leaving many criminals to constitute the police force). The jefferson nationalists tried doing it by themselves in order to truly finish the job of transitionning to popularly backed democracy knowing that such help from a joint accord of the two superpowers would take weeks when they don't have weeks to defend themselves, already having limited supply of ammos when not having the control of the coast. That is unless you show me that there were ANZC/SAC troops and ships in sufficient numbers near the region to quickly counter the autocratic confederate side. The autocrats got the raw murderous gangsters, the numbers, the food and the weapons vs a democratic side that is landlocked, far away from nearest help from either the SAC or the AZNC that would anyway dispute over the terms of occupation and coordination, with less ammos. It's from that context that would lead to signs of a early victory by the Civic rights party before the incoming siege of Yreka where they finally have no choice but to trust a country that ounce betrayed them in the collective consciousness.

It's very clear that such a conflict, given the context and the small territory, would only last weeks-two months. The nearest troops of the superpowers are days away and need proper ressources, manpower, transport and a proper plan in order to attack heavily distant fortified coastal cities (as showned in the "formation of the MSP" part of the article and the 1993 Crescent City incident). They don't have any military presence near the region (unless you prove me wrong). It's just more logic to demand help first from the USA then from a joint effort of the SAC and ANZC, there's just too many factors for that. Now what do you agree with and what don't you agree with. I'm again free to be more precise as I'm not very good at explaining.  SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:04, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Mitro says that  the Jefferson nationalist have  power in a few of the smaller cities and not just yerka.  I assume that Port Ofrord is a Jefferson nationalist stronghold because the mayor. I feel that that the Jefferson Nationalists probably have a few other strongholds. I like the idea of Ashland Lake view weed Susanville and gold beach being nationalist strong hold. Gold beach being a nationalist stornghold would be an advagte for the rebels because it base of the MSP navy

Do you think that yerka and the other nationalist strong holds would declare independence for the MSP and not be recognized by crescent city.

So do you like the idea of the war being in march 2012 the USA intervening in may and the war ending in August.


I still think the SAC and the ANZC would intervene. Lets bring someone else to help so decide this conflict That's exactly what I'm saying: Yreka is not alone, I haven't talk about Yreka vs the Civic Rights Party, I've talked about a democratic centralist side mostly centered in Yreka (that had in its history a democratic "color revolution" that led to the strong establishment of democratic values and institutions) vs the civic rights corrupted side. It's an ideological epicenter if you will. Why I haven't talked about other cities is because I couldn't find information about wich cities were jeffersonians (where did you get that info?) from wich canon article? There can't be personal assumption, evidence is everything here, rational logic to get a causality in events is everything here. There can be more people weighting in the opinion matter here, but that doesn't change the fact that the logic in my arguments still hold strong (I've asked you to get me a picture of supposed forces of those superpowers near the region to contradict my points, I'd like to see it now). It took two years for these superpowers to drive the hell angels out of the region in the mid-2000s despite being among the biggest military powers in the world simply because logic will tell they are so far away from a conflict that demand huge ressources in oil, weapon manufacturing, manpower, ammos and even more importantly all the ressources to TRANSPORT them all the way for more than 4,000 km AND to come back AND to bring after that troops, equipment and supplying to a heavily garded and hostile area. Same for SAC troops that would need to do this extremly costly and dangerous operation over 5,700 km. What reason do they really have to go all this way for a small patch of unstable land partially caused by their own mistakes? Give me a good reason. Also, as an extra argument against such intervention: the sociocultural context have changed since the mid 2000s, pacifist parties have been put into power in those superpowers, making them less militaristic and interventionnist and more diplomatic and relying on the League of Nations instead. They've got no motive to go this far into helping a side set on loosing to their eyes, located in a random patch of land. Another argument based on logic is simply this one: why, with limited time and ressource on your hands, would you want to demand help to faraway guys when there's a country that could easily help you more efficiently and quickly right next door? Next door that don't have to worry about attacking by the fortified sea since they can simply attack in a weak spot by land. From a strategy point of view (and the Yreka militia being professionaly trained and thus inclined to valorization of strategy when the very existence of their city governemnt is at risk from the outside, they'd valorize this over dependence to the countries that brought the very problems they are facing with) this makes way more sense. The independance idea makes even less sense considering it is ompletely surrounded by hostile totalitarian regimes (the rest of the MSP). Independance is let by widespread exceptionalism and valorisation of a different culture in a region or people, the Jefferson Nationalists are clearly not specifically attached to Yreka or the regions they hold a foothold in and their agenda clearly says they want a centralized government over the WHOLE region, a semi-nationalist sentiment for all the region and not just one city or subregion of people voting for them. Just put yourself in their heads: given the context it would be suicidal for them to do so, they'd be much enclined to accept the status quo (albeit a delicate one since the total censorship act of 2010) then shoot themselves in the foot for an idea not really popular among their own citizens. So it's clearly illogical. For the war, change the end to early july and you get me agreeing with the length and dates. In such a small region, there's no way it would last after the beginning of the US intervention three whole months. You must first sign your posts for reference at every post, then you must disprove my arguments wrong with logical arguments based on existing canon. Else they still stand and must be taken in the conception, Plain and simple. You already convinced me of a war as the way the MSP would logically end, now do it for the rest or agree with my points you can't find good arguments. It's basically Emile Zola except instead of characters lifes we try to predict with logic given the environement they are born and grow in, it's the entire world. Please to hear what you agree and what could be wrong (or not) about my arguments. SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:06, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

I assume that port oford is an nationlist stornghold because the nationlist founder was the mayor of port orford accoridng to the jefferson nationlist page. Here's a link ttps://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Jefferson_Nationalists_(1983:_Doomsday).I must coffess gold beach ,lakeview , ashland weed Susanville  being naitonlist strongholds are  my idea. . Beside Yerka and Port Orford Mitro did  not list any  nationlist storngholds beyond saying that several smaller cities were nationalist storngholds. Sine  gold beach ,lakeview , ashland weed Susanville are smaller cities in the msp I assume that they  could the smaller cities that are nationlist storngholdsGoldwind1 (talk) 17:39, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

Since time is falling short, here's what we'll do: we'll give a more brief and short view on the war. Not to say that the war itself wasn't rich in detailled context and battles and all of that, but that the actual articles (MSP and Jefferson) will do a brief overview of those complex events that will be free for someone later on to develop further. Here's how it will go: first the whole context behind it as I explained earlier will be there. Then, the war will break out as a democratic side consisting of Jefferson nationalists, pro-centralization people, pro-United States people, freedom activists, victims of the MSP and lower classes people most oppressed by the other side, a status quo side consisting of (naive) libertarians, pro-confederation people, oligarchs, crimelords, Civic Rights party members, totalitarians, corrupted power-thirsty politicians, ex-Hell Angels police forces...in other words people supporting a dysfunctional regime that benefit all the stinky hodge pot political and law enforcement class that was in place since the aftermath of DD in the region. One is centered around Yreka, another in Crescent City. Then, despite early victories the democratic side is loosing ground only to be in a critical spot when Yreka is near the frontline. Then, under internal pressure and the special demand for help from the Jefferson nationalists, the United States finally intervene and help the democratic side to push the status quo side towards ultimate defeat. Finally, the captured are put under Nuremberg-style trials where all the shady things happening from DD up until the defeat of the Civic Rights were revealed and broadcasted live, showing all attrocities, war crimes and human rights violations commited by that large loosely-connected gang. Victors and, surprisingly to the neutral public​​​​​, their intellectual figures, in a number of conferences, write a new consitution and society for the region now fully freed from the demons of its past. Pro-United States attitudes given the widely different treatment and support given to them by them compared to the superpowers rise, the ANZC and the SAC are publically condemned within the US west coast and some other places for their lack of action and their role in creating these MSP doomed from the start as they were. 

Now, for the third time, what do you agree on, regarding my points? They are still standing. And please take the time to fix your constant typos.

If you don't have any arguments left against these changes I demand you do them:

-Change the end of the war to be in early July

-Remove the TV network whom I didn't saw any way it could have been a thing given the context. And take inspiration in that whole radio thing I've talked about earlier (just read my earlier posts, it will be quick and easy to find don't worry).

-Write the war in your own words based on what I established, remember to make it a summary and to not add uncanon pre-war elements into it.

Please respond quickly

Excited to finish that dispute

SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:27, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

I made a few changes to the MSP page and the Republic of Jefferson Page.  I hope they are enough to satisfy you. If not you have my permission to make any changes you want.

Goldwind1 (talk) 14:22, June 7, 2020 (UTC)


I actually preffered the first name you choose for the last chapter of the MSP history. It suited better the tone of the chapter. If you agree with my ideas, I'd request you rewrite them in your own words because honestly I just didn't properly formulate them so it feels weird reading them under my raw akward wording.  I don't want to monopolize the creative process, in fact, every single post that I made contained a request for you to plead your point and integrate your ideas by using logic and context to unjustify my points. Yet, sadly, you didn't. I want to help you upgrading to the unique style of this timeline, to dare trying things, to dare defend your point....and instead you're giving (from what I read at least) the impression that everything you do is pointless, it's far from that. I just feel bad as I don't want to steal your fun by doing all the fun writing stuff. Come join me in participating! Go suggest changes to me, it's simply a matter of arguments. I'm convinced you can do it and prove some of my points wrong (you did twice earlier, it was a good thing). SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:40, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

I argued with you at the beginning of our dispute. You originally said that in the case of a civil war the rebels had no chance of winning. However my argument about how the Jefferson Nationalist controlled Yreaka, Port Orford and a few other cites and that these cites had thier own militias changed your mind. The victory of the rebels is the most important idea I had involving the MSP. I am willing to scaffice an invervention by the SAC and ANZC in favor of a invervtion by the USA if it means the rebels will win. I have made a few more change to the republic jefferson and MSP pages. I hope you are now stafied with my wording and that our dispute is over.Goldwind1 (talk) 13:30, June 8, 2020 (UTC)


Is our dispute overGoldwind1 (talk) 01:44, June 9, 2020 (UTC)

Now, would you let me try something on the article you have the rights to? Just an experiment. If you're not satisfied you'd be free to reverse anything you want of my changes (and you totally have that right by the way in the current context). Under these terms would you let me do these changes knowing you'd have the final say? It would consist of polishing the last chapter and adding a picture in the history section. Would it be okay?

By the way, regarding newspapers in the republic of Jefferson, you didn't have to cut them off. They were already present, realistic given context and canon within the timeline. Let's just say that in the months ahead of its formation, paper would logically not be the top priority and newspapers would thus be either on pause or made in one exemplary (displayed in public sight on a main square, kinda like in Kyrgyztan except in one exemplary nailed to a wall). That is, until the mid-late 2010s where paper supply and infrastructures would realistically be restored on a high enough scale and capacity to produce mass-scale newspapers.

Don't forget to put your signatures at the right place, just sayin'. SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:00, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

You have my permissionGoldwind1 (talk) 16:50, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

Now what do you think?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:24, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

It's good. So is our dispite over

Well if you sincerely think everything is fine now, sure. Now we need to talk about the Republic of Jefferson. If that's the case I can remove the "under the review" tag if all is settled. Is it okay for you?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:13, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

The only additon to the msp page I can think  of  the top of my head is a high ranking meamber of the Civic rights party fled to the imeprial state of Santa Cruz

You have permission to edit the Jefferson page. My onr request is this say something  of the SAC and  The ANZC have apologized for propping up the civic rights party and not sending aide to the yreka faction. The Anzc and SAC has since sent tons of forgin aid to the republic of Jefferson. The republic of Jefferson is still mad at  the SAC and ANZC and but they start to get over it. Goldwind1 (talk) 01:26, June 11, 2020 (UTC)

Does anybody still have complaints about my Republic of Jefferson Page or can I delete my proposal template.Goldwind1 (talk) 12:35, June 26, 2020 (UTC)


Here are my points:

1-Be a little more precise and add more stuff regarding history, it's a little short and a little imprecise when you read it ("elections where held in October", of what year?)

2-The "Populist Party" is too generic of a name. The sociocultural evolution of the world, being different, didn't led to the rise in public conscience of the term "populist". So another name would be better. Also what are the policies promoted by the parties? What made the "populist party" rise recently in popularity? For what reasons (anchored in current local reality and context)? Wouldn't there be other small third parties too? What types of public does each party attracts? Add more substance and clarity without making it a contrast in tone to other DD pages. 

3-For International relations, it doesn't put enough emphasis on the neglect of the two superpowers in properly understanding the situation before properly establishing a country in the region and trusting a political elite that was basically warlords, criminals and other bandits to rule a country thinking this political stability would lead to civilians gradually taking back control of the country. In other words, they didn't do their homework. The rooted antiamericanism present in the region for decades and its reasons should be noted here to add nuance. Perhaps that's the basis of one of the parties that would want to maintain isolation towards the USA to preserve independance, wanting to establish a new culture and society to build itself on. Basically ideological remnants of the Civic Rights Party and what led the region to be what it was for a long time (good and bad). Relations with Socialist Siberia should be detailled here and how they evolved since the MSP times.

4-The role of renewable energies and steam, as present in the MSP article, should also be added here. It's definitely not "the biggest wine maker in america", the MSP article states that the industry is small but growing. After an obvious setback by the war that damaged the vineyards, it's recovering right now. Chumash is definitely the main producer by large.

5-There should be a culture section just like in the MSP. How sport and education where affected by the war and trends in education of the 2010s? Were stadiums destroyed because of the conflict, what regions were the most affected by the war? Is there a high number of PTSD in the region due to near constant and stressfull impact of conflict?

6-Do you think the Jefferson statist flag could be an official flag for the country? It would be that sovereigntist party that pushed it's adoption that got accepted by the house. Leaving a somewhat confused population with the flag of a movement that was considered a joke that would never happened. It would lead to people that can still laugh making jokes about how they finally were capable of making it happens and laughing at the weird X's on the flag symbolising a no more existent issue. 

7-Add the USACanada83 template at the end of the page.

Feel free to debate on these changes and contest them if you don't agree regarding the context.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:32, July 6, 2020 (UTC)

I have acted on all your points besides 2 and 7.

I am having second thoughts about the Jefferson nationalist being The Republic of Jefferson. The Jefferson nationalist a single issue party and issue was turing the confederated MSP into the centralized Republic of Jefferson. I feel that once the MSP Become the Republic of Jefferson the natiolist would brake Into at least 2 parties. One party would probbly be a center right constertive party. The other would probably a be center left party. Do you think the center right or center left party would be more popularGoldwind1 (talk) 12:06, July 16, 2020 (UTC)

I Have just updated  the  poltics secton. Tell me what you think. PS how do you add the USACanada83 templateGoldwind1 (talk) 22:03, July 20, 2020 (UTC)


Add Template:''', then the name of the template('''USACanada83'''), then '''

I don't think such two opposite factions could coexist within a single party (here the nationalist party). Split those into two parties as it would make more sense i think. Also there is a movement for gay rights in Jefferson? That's what the right wing faction of the Nationalist party's attitude seems to suggest? I'd think it'd be wise to remove that part not out of homophobia but just because there isn't an article to properly explain the status of the LGBT around the world in this timeline. So from said article, one could foster the evolution and spread of ideas around certain parts of the world at certain times within the articles of the timeline. Remove, unless you have a better idea, that part: "be to be creative and" to only write about the People's progress party agenda wanting incentives to encourage entrepreneurship, else it's out of tone.

Beside that, It is almost complete.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:47, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

I have update the poltics secetion agian. My current change may be enough  but  I am not sure. I have removed the part about the nationlist having a right and left wing faction and made them pure right wing. Do you think  thingk naitonlist should still be in power maybe they lost  in 2016 to the people's progress party because do  the region taking a turn  the left do to right wing poltics being associted with the crupurt the  civic right party and the jefferson naitolist polces beign viewed as benfit a small elite cligueGoldwind1 (talk) 23:52, July 23, 2020 (UTC)

I would say  that  my   republic of jefferson page is ready for graudaiton. Does anybody objectGoldwind1 (talk) 16:01, July 29, 2020 (UTC)

I say no, there's still one big obstacle to it's "graudaiton": the grammar and the multiple typos present in your article (including MSP being wrongly reffered in the universities as MPS), they must be corrected first. Also remove the all-cap in your titles inside the culture section. Those are my last conditions.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:53, July 29, 2020 (UTC)

I hope my latest round of edits suffice to get my article graduated


It is, wait a week if no one else object and you're free to remove the label yourself. I'll take care of its integration into the template I made you put.

Good job.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:58, July 30, 2020 (UTC)

Some Proposals I've been working on

Hello! To anyone I haven't "met" here yet, I'm GryffindorKrypton, and I've been working on this time for the past few months. I've been updating some fo the older articles while tinkering with some ideas of my own. After a few months of this, I think I'm ready to bring forward some of my proposals for discussion. I've organized them into categories:

PEOPLE:

George Shultz - Reagan's Secretary of State. I've put together a proposal on what his post-Doomsday bio could be like. 

Admiral William H. McRaven - The US Atlantic Remnant canonically has a Commissioner in charge of its military forces, but the page doesn't name any of them. I've put together a page on Adm. McRaven with the idea that he could serve in this role. 

Pete Buttigieg - Born a couple years before Doomsday in a region of Indiana that canonically wasn't bombed, but saw its population head south. In this timeline, I'm proposing that he become the Mayor of Evansville, with room for higher positions in the future potentially. 

Condoleezza Rice - Was at Stanford on Doomsday in OTL. I've traced a potential post-Doomsday bio for her, in which she serves in various teaching and diplomatic roles in California. 

Joe Torre - Was living outside Atlanta on Doomsday during his tenure as manager of the Braves. My proposal has him escaping in the first wave of evacuations, serving for a while as a high school baseball coach, before eventually playing a role in organizing larger-scale baseball tournaments in more recent decades. 

ORGANIZATIONS:

CARICOM - A real life organization of Caribbean nations. My proposal has CARICOM becoming defunct for a period after Doomsday before being reaffirmed in 2020 by the Caribbean nations. 

PLACES: 

New Jersey Skylands - the leafy northwestern region of New Jersey, which according to canon wasn't bombed, but otherwise is not mentioned. I've envisioned a modest survivor state based mostly around agriculture and trading hand-crafted items. 

Torrington - the canonical capital of the reconstituted United States. It didn't have its own article yet, so I figured I'd give it a try. 

CULTURE: 

Bollywood - India's Hindi-language movie industry. I've come up with some ideas to have its post-Doomsday story parallel that of India as a whole, with a fall after Doomsday and a gradual return in the 90's that ends up playing a part in the cultural movement towards the birth of the UIP. I've also detailed its potential relationship with the UIP government in the decades since then. Its post-Doomsday existence is already canonical, but I thought it'd be fun to have a full article exploring the world of Bollywood in the 1983: Doomsday timeline. 

The James Bond franchise - This was another very fun proposal to write. I've put together an idea where the franchise is revived in New Britain (similar to the American expats in the ANZC rebooting old US comics as American Comics) as a series of novels, comic books, and radio plays. 

TWO MAJOR SUGGESTIONS FOR EXISTING PAGES: 

I also wanted to bring forward two major suggestions about existing pages, suggestions that I think make sense but are probably too big/consequential to do without a group discussion. 

President George H. W. Bush - Sadly, Pres. Bush passed away in 2018. Given that he died from natural causes, I think its likely that in this timeline he'd probably pass away around the same time from similar causes. If the group agrees, I'd like to write a conclusion to his story (though with room for more events to be added in before his death and with regards to his legacy). 

The Union Interim Parliament - On a much less grim note, I wanted to suggest a potential change for the UIP. I've recently adopted the page, and I think that nearly 20 years into its reign, its unlikely that the UIP's leaders would still be referring to their nation-state as "Interim." At this point, according to the canon map, it controls the vast majority of India's former territory (actually, the already-written description says it has returned all of them), and it's been in power for decades now. I think by now the UIP would probably have dropped the "Interim" name and have started referring to itself by something with India in the name again. After all, the new version of the United States dropped the "Provisional" part of its name in 2010, so I think there's already precedent in canon for the Indian government to simply refer to itself as one of those names by now rather than as the "Interim" parliament. Furthermore, according to existing canon, the League of Nations has already recognized it as the government of India as of 2008. Perhaps most significantly, I think the UIP's leadership would be looking to visually solidify their legitimacy as the rulers of India. 

So here are my name suggestions: 

- Union of India

- Unified Indian Parliament

- Union Parliament of India

- Republic of India 

- OTHER: If anyone has another idea for the revised name, feel free to share! 

Anyway, I look forward to your feedback! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Okay, I'll start with the people and organizations.

-For Schultz, everything seems realistic and coherent with canon. Liked how you integrated the crisis of the late 80s into his bio as it would certainly have been this way under such circomstances. Just a little question : wouldn't he teach Industrial Economics instead of diplomacy at the Canberra University considering he have a PHD and was once a teacher on that subject at Chicago University? Wouldn't that make more sense?

-Nothing to say about McRaven.

-About Pete Buttigieg. Serving in a small navy with such a uniform makes no sense. Wouldn't he choose a land infantry squadron or something? Also the whole trip to South Bend needs changes, according to the Indiana page no Kentucky military scouts ever went there (just scouts from Superior once in the 90s and another time in 2009 : "Kentucky have already done so [scouting Indiana] in the south") so with the existing canon, this whole segment cannot happen under its current form (unless you would want to reform the canon to correct a lack of realism but let's say South Bend is quite far away from the Commonwealth of Kentucky so I really don't see how he or Kentucky would have the occasion to go to the far north of Indiana). Another point is: in what college did he went to? Were there colleges that survived DD in the region in the first place? Why did he go to college? How was he able to afford college? I'd like of you to give me clear arguments and reasons to answer all these questions to justify it within your article (or dejustifying it accordingly or just modify it).

-Condoleezza Rice. Your article you should add more details and be more clear so someone who doesn't know who she is (like me) know how she went from Alabama to a Carter administration job to Denver to California. How did she gain her reputation as a Soviet specialist? Did the fallout affected her area (be careful to not have a version different from canon here)? Warning: Remember that the Municipal Pacific States only came to be in the second half of the 2000s so you're making a lot of big contradictions here. Even more in contradiction: look at how far the MSP region is from Santa Cruz, not to forget all the nuked areas in the way just to arrive at an unstable warlords-driven living hell lacking in everything whom the terryfying word of mouth about the crual Boss Jones come out spreading throughout the west coast. Unless her colleagues were suicidal or just stupid, I don't think they would want to go there. The California republic is not better by much: the government in the second half of the 90s collapsed and they are victims of foreign attacks, they'll only reform in 2006, de facto 2003. It was pretty much anarchy until then. With what path will they go to anywhere? Chumash? On civil war. Sierra Nevada? In a Spokane war of some sort (not much details). The only somewhat safe place to go would be Visalia and be accepted residing there by the authorites by doing manual labour there until a better option could be found. Then when the California republic would reform and actually be stable, her whole gang of intellectuals could go take refuge there realistically around 2006-7 and start working at that college before she go do her diplomatic thing. I wonder under such a story if Visalia would accept her (or if she would feel comfortable enough to do it given her record up there of fleeing the place) as a representative of the new California republic. Big big changes needed.

-Joe Torre. Were these caravans actually a thing? What was your source for these? Were they even safe? Beside that, everything seems fine.

-CARICOM. I think French should be an official language considering it's wide use in the carribeans (with the presence of the RTFA and two members of CARICOM that are Haiti and French Guyanne). I think it should be explicitely mentionned that its goal is not to form a geopolitical political bloc, just an economic, diplomatic and cultural alliance. It's because otherwise, neutral wealthy French Guyanne would never have joined. It makes CARICOM more likely to create interest in membership when not having to compromise for member countries their foreign policy. I'd also think it would look nice to add small-scale flags left of the members states in their list. Also, why not make a template to include the members countries? Look at other templates of the timeline for inspiration.

I'm tired, so I'll take a break of review. You'll have to contend of those reviews for today ;D

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:42, June 24, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back and ready to finish the review. 

-New Jersey Skylands. Your map seems correct according to official weather data and references used for this timeline. I'd however say that there would be a bigger refugee crisis considering the alarm that went on some time before the strikes, giving the chance for some to exit the cities of Philadelphia and Delwark. It's a bit too optimistic in that regard concerning the low level of refugees. It would be more chaotic in the beginning. Also explaining how they manage their currency and how they came to be in contact with other states in the region(according to ways that don't clash or contrast in tone with the canon). Also, how did they got zeppelins? How in the world did the east coast, with all the difficulties concerning any form of global intercontinental trade, would have in its possession zeppelins from the other side of the atlantic? I don't buy it. They are just starting to fabricate them for essex and southern england. Sorry. Also, could you explain the sociocultural factors that led to it being a "hotbed of american nolstalgia"? What led to it realistically being this way? You should also add "region" after talking about Pennsylvania because there's no pennsylvanian state as of right now and would reflect better the situation you seems to talk about in your article, encompassing the various survivor states. It might surely be just me, but I think naming a history chapter after a bon jovi song is a bit out of touch and contrasting the general style of the timeline, not looking really "encyclopedia-style". Almost last point, how is their political system? How it is structered and what posts and roles that goes with them are? For instance, what is the power and role of this "governor lieutenant governor"? Is it like a parliamentary system with an elected head of state and a prime minister? It must look like it came right of the local people discussions and minds given the historical context. Last point, is it part of the United Communities? If canonize its role and history must be present in its neighbours pages and the UC page or any other article where it could have contributed (while respecting the editorial guidelines of asking proper permission or adopt them). 

-Torrington. A map pointing out its location would be nice. You should contact an expert from the experts page if you're not confident in doing it yourself. I'd suggest talking about how and why it came to be choosed as the capital. Beside that, everything looks fine. LOVE the pictures, especially that one with the horse carrier and the bicycles. You truly makes it more vibrant and relatable with these quality, canon-respecting, pictures. 

-Bollywood. To be frank, I don't know a thing about Bollywood. But there are a few missing things in my eye. First, where is the Shak Ruk Khan movie "Swadesh" mentionned by the UIP article's Bolywood section? The first years that were propaganda mentionned on that page? Also, since history changed, wouldn't Khan come up with a different name for his studio? Or was the name popular with him long before it to the point it would be certain to come up in his mind despite DD and the collapse of India? Just a point. Also wouldn't the early years be boosted with a certain xenophobia because of Doomsday and the collapse of India creating fear and hate towards those percieved as "foreign", affecting relations with other countries? 

-James Bond. Who had the rights in the 1990s of James Bond when the buyers got the rights? If they bought it it means someone legally detained the right at that moment. Was there a local section of MGM that survived (probably not)? If no one has it, it means it becomes public domain and free to use, making a huge difference. Sean Connery was probably alive in andalusia in his villa. As to why he didn't stayed there, beats me. Perhaps Granada was dangerous and warlordy (wich I can only guess as no real explicit canon info I was able to find) because Granada doesn't have its own article despite being a canon state (annexed militarily by the Spanish Regency in 2011). For the first post-DD novel, I like the concept but I would add the motif as to why he went there: spying and preventing corrupt officials of the dictator in place, who are illegally selling weapons to jihadists in Lebanon to attack UN peacekeepers. Not only does Bond loose contact with the MI6, the people he was supposed to countain and demask, with now no more clients, used these weapons against each other (with or without proxies) in a power vacuum in order to assure their power and wealth from weapons production survive and take new highs in a manufactured war made at the expense of the somalis civilians. Bond, who's gadgets are of little use in a situation that is out of one man's control, retire into his friend and helper with his former mission's house in a somali village helping locals against warlords as you say. When rescuing the Bond girl of the novel of some warlords, she tells him the existence of New Britain. They make out together. Then, Bond receive a visit from the new MI6 who request him for a mission that he accept because "duty is always duty": his targets from his old mission have now unified their forces in acquiring abandonned Soviet secret nuclear weapons from Ethiopia that they plan to use against New Britain that is now threatening their power and business by militarily intervening to stabilize the region. Bond finds his old somali ennemies that now recognize him as a spy from years prior, teasing him about him "fleeing his past" and boosting about how they will rule the world now that Allah through Doomsday gave them the chance to do so. Bond manage to save the day, ending the last chance the warlords had to preserve their old order against the New British that now ended the civil war under a new democratic government whom the bond girl and his old local aide that housed him are part of. As the new "less enthusiast about him" M leading it orders him to come install himself in New Britain to receive further missions, Bond and his yet-not-another-girlfriend part their ways. When she asks why does he think it is good for him to live like that instead of staying, he replied that it is what he always was as this recent unearthing of the past (with the somalis of his corner of africa mission) made him realize: his way of life always was to live...to fight another day....epic end. With the equivalent of a post-credit movie short in a novel, Bond learns all the stuff about Q and Miss Moneypenny as you wrote it. Cool version of your story no?

Anyway, the passage about traversing Africa is just one adventure too much in a single novel, it just would distract too much from the plot who otherwise always stays at various degrees in focus. I don't see how the rereleases of the original novels would have trivia if they weren't linked to the author or things he wrote or something. Were the novels really that popular before Doomsday? I thought only the movies did (but I'm not a expert on the subject either). Were there any post "to live another day" graphic novels that got more mixed reviews? It seems everything is the best critical and commercial success in the world here (just a personal opinion). Especially if you consider that it could be a public domain character given the arguments that I gave wich would to all sorts of Bond stories of varying styles and quality. Bootleg Bond :D

-Now for your big changes you should debate them in the talk page of their respective pages as I think it would fit better to reach their creator given the type of change you want to make. I see nothing wrong with these changes. Just make sure that the reaction to the death of George W. Bush is properly measured, without underplaying or exagerating its impact in the public conscience and the intellectual debate, the sort of questions and homages he would receive or would be asked after his death. For India name change, if you didn't already adopt it you need permission or the role of caretaker through adoption to do such a change (and change its name in all times it is mentionned in list of current day countries or members of something India is part of). Make sure to talk about the previous name in the article so we don't forget this history period. I preffer Union of India as, given my hypothesis with the sociocultural elements into it, the "union" needs to be part of it. "republic of India" would never be liked by the population and anything with "parliamentary" in it for the long term would just sound redundant.

-Now, for ALL your articles about people, organization and locations, even if it looks kinda stylish with the big picture at the top right, all of this must be replaced by an infobox with stats because the current version of them clashes too much with the style of the rest of 1983:Doomsday. It's in order to make it more uniform to have an infobox respecting the inclusion of expected things and proportions of pictures. It's just to respect the established norms and aesthetics for the timeline, sorry.

I'm now done. Now I want to hear you now, even if it will be hard for you discuss all my points individually since it'S all packed together. I'd like to hear to what degree you agree or disagree with my ideas and what should be kept or changed. Hope to see you soon, you did a good effort.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:55, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hi SigmaHero045, thanks for your guidance and input! I've taken a look at your suggestions and made some changes to my proposals.

Shultz and McRaven: Glad things look good here! For Shultz, I figured he could teach a course on diplomacy because of his personal experience with it, esp. after the trying times of Doomsday. Maybe he could teach both diplomacy and industrial economics? 

Pete Buttigieg: For Kentucky's exploration of Indiana, it looks like the notation about Kentucky's expedition to southern Indiana was made on Feb 24, 2010. Given that it hadn't happened by that specific point, could Pete Buttigieg's unit's expedition to northern IN happen later the same year? Given that southern Indiana is part of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, I don't think it's unrealistic that they'd want to send expeditions to see what became of the northern half of the former state. 

As for Buttigieg's branch of the military, I wrote him as being in the Kentucky Navy because he served in the Navy in real life (that's his actual Navy uniform in the picture), and its already canon that Kentucky has a small Navy. I imagined and wrote that he'd mostly be involved with fighting raiders along the waterways in and near the Commonwealth. 

For the part about college, it's already canon that the University of Southern Indiana existed and was operational in Evansville. I just added a detail to Buttigieg's bio that he studied history with an eye towards public service. Given that canon already has colleges operating in the region, I think that its not unreasonable to assume that there were a fair amount of young future professionals looking to get credentialed. I think it's almost certain that prices would've dropped to a small amount in this timeline from the greatly reduced demand. 

Condoleezza Rice: Yeah I admittedly wrote that proposal in a bit of a rush. I will take a look at how to make some changes for how she ends up in the California Republic. 

For her background, she worked for President Carter at the State Department starting in 1977. Previously, she'd been mentored at college by professor and anti-communist former diplomat Josef Korbel. She also served at Stanford University's program on arms control and served a Ford Foundation Fellowship on Soviet studies and international security. You're right, I will take your advice and expand on how her background would affect her reaction. 

CARICOM: I've made the suggested edit about adding French. I found the template for organizations and I've added that. I'm still not sure how to do what you suggested with the template for member countries with their flags. Would you mind advising me on which template to use for those tasks? Thanks! 

Joe Torre: Thanks! As for the caravan part, I know canon has trade networks springing up by that time period. The use of the specific word "caravan" was my idea though, merely because I think at that point in time it probably would have felt like the safest way to travel between more distant settlements in the 1990's of this timeline. 

New Jersey Skylands: I've added a crisis early on in the post-Doomsday history that shows the tensions from what you described and ultimately serves as the impetus for the region's consolidation into a unified survivor state. The American nostalgia part I ascribe due to a combination of the region's OTL political conservatism as well as residents feeling isolated from the rest of the continent and longing for the good old days when they were part of a continent-spanning nation with mass media and transportation.

I've added a section fleshing out the details of the state government. Also, I think you misread the infobox: Governor and Lieutenant Governor are two separate positions. The infobox just places them one above the other. I left them blank for now because I haven't yet figured out who to put in those positions as of 2020 just yet. 

For the part about the zeppelins, I seem to have made an error. I read about the zeppelins in some of the other articles and erroneously made the assumption that they were in operation in North America as well. Is it possible that they could have been created by Delmarva or another large survivor state in the region by 2020? If not, I can just remove that part. 

I agree that the New Jersey Skylands could join the United Communities. After looking at your suggestion on this and reading the UC's page, I came up with an idea: I noticed that the UC has apparently been engaged in various fallout cleanup projects; perhaps instead of zeppelins being a means of trade between the New Jersey Skylands and South Jersey, the Skylands could instead partner with the UC to organize a cleanup operation to clear fallout at some of the thinnest parts of the fallout line separating North and South Jersey. They could perhaps target the thinnest points in this line of fallout to open up some corridors for trade between Skylands-controlled North Jersey and Delmarva-controlled South Jersey by 2020. I think this could be a good and much more sensible and canon-based alternative to my original zeppelin idea. 

Torrington: Thanks so much for your kind words! I will make an attempt at creating the map on my own at first, but if that fails, could you please point me to the correct page to ask for someone to help with that? Thanks!

Also, I've added some new material to the Torrington page again, including a city flag and more of the details you suggested. I took some inspiration from existing pages about the US Continuity of Government plans to map out Torrington's role in the rebirth of the USA, based mostly on what's already been written. 

Bollywood: I did mention the propagandistic aspect when I talked about how officials of the Indian rump government encouraged the distribution of 90's era movies to help encourage a rise in reunification sentiment, and I talked about how this helped fuel the movement that led to the formal creation of the UIP. I could definitely expand more on this point if you like! I could definitely see movies after the formal creation of the UIP being directed to play up the Indian patriotism aspect to encourage stability. 

As for the name of Red Chillies Entertainment, I did some searching on why Shah Rukh Khan named it that. The most common answer I could find was that he did to symbolize the "spiciness" of Indian culture and entertainment, as well as one person claiming that it was a tribute to his father who had formerly sold red chillies (dunno if that part is true or not). Either way, whichever it is, neither of those would've been changed by Doomsday, since peppers and spice are pretty ubiquitous and iconic in Indian culture. Also from a pragmatic standpoint, keeping the name the same as in OTL makes it a bit easier to use OTL posters and pictures in this timeline if need be haha. 

James Bond: As far as I can tell, I think any executives who held the IP rights to the franchise were living in places that were targeted on Doomsday. The process I came up with for how these New British execs get the rights in court was based directly on the canon article describing how the creators of American Comics got the rights to those. 

For the part about Sean Connery, I put him where I did for pretty much the exact reasons you described. I couldn't find much detail on the area where he was living other than that it was not targeted but that it seems to have lost population anyway, so I figured a mass exodus to a more stable region of Spain made sense. 

I will definitely incorporate a lot of the story ideas you put here for the story that brings Bond back. A couple quibbles though: I think Bond would need to hear the rumors of New Britain from more than one person before he goes there. I think he'd probably have been in a state of despair and pessimism after Doomsday. That's why I have him only deciding to go after hearing the rumors from multiple groups of travellers. 

I also envisioned the part about his battle through Africa towards NB as being a few chapters, but not a massive chunk of the book, largely because I want the story to devote a lot of time and attention to the emotional weight of Bond arriving in this unexpected (to him) British survivor nation, starting to integrate into it, and then having to fight to defend his new home from the warlord. I definitely do like your idea of having the warlord group being previously associated with the villain he was fighting at the time of Doomsday though; brings it full circle quite nicely. 

For the re-releases, I figured the trivia parts could be stuff that was already known to hardcore Bond fans before Doomsday (and the novels indeed had a strong fanbase) but that the younger post-Doomsday generation wouldn't have had any reason to know until now. 

President Bush: Agreed. I will try to think of a tone-appropriate way to write his death and include various reactions to it. When I have something a bit more specific, I'll add it to his talk page and back here on this page too. 

India: Yep, I already adopted the India/UIP page a while back. When I put the request to adopt it, I stated my idea about changing the name on both the article's talk page and the creator's talk page right from the start. 

I concur with you that "the Union of India" sounds like the most likely name. It incorporates part of the "Union Interim Parliament" name, it makes sense for the sociopolitical state of post-Doomsday India, and there's actually real life precedent in the sense that nationally-administered regions of India in OTL are referred to as "Union territories," so I think the average Indian would already associate the word Union with the government of India. 

Also, I frankly like how "the Union of India" sounds haha. 

Do you think 2008 would work as a date for the name change to go into effect? I ask because that's when the League of Nations granted them official recognition as the legitimate government of India. Also, before I even adopted the page, it already said at the top that India had succeeded in returning all its breakaway regions to the fold via conquest. Would it make sense, given that, to update the page with a new map to reflect this? 

Infoboxes: I have begun the process of adding them, though I'm still kinda clumsy at it. 

For the articles that seem to be ready, such as George Shultz, William McRaven, CARICOM, Joe Torre, and Torrington, how soon do you think it would make sense to remove the proposal template and canonize them (if they're ready)? 

One last note: I want to sincerely thank you for your constructive input and advice. You do a GREAT job of being friendly and welcoming while also maintaining the standards of the Wiki! Thank you sincerely! 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I don't know how I wasn't able to see your post, the notification didn't reach me for some reason, sorry about being aware of your post so late. It really past me by. So when I wrote that post on your talk page, I wasn't aware at all of what you wrote here on the 9th of July.



Also, I'd like to apologize for my rude attitude in my post the other day, I shouldn't had to be that unforgiving for a simple unawareness of the required tone for the timeline. It wasn't your fault. I didn't want to offend you or anything, I'm really sorry. (Still, beside the overreactive attitude, I still made valid points concerning many things, wich I'll properly reword and reexplain in my real attitude you complimented me on). It was just the bad memories from another user who made similar mistakes but who, unlike you, harassed me in a oblivion that just frustrated me back then. Those last words of you were really really kind, I'm glad to be a good mentor for you and that my explanations are fair enough and supportive enough (it really gently surprised me). I hope my outburst from the other day won't change your vision of me in your note, you'd be right if that isn't the case.


Now without further ado, let's get to your points about these 64 different things in one place :D

Chultz: As any University teacher will tell you, teaching two vastly different subjects at the same time is just a pure pain at such high academic level. So it's fair to say he'd choose something he has actual academic experience with.

Buttigieg: I don't really see the point of why they couldn't take the word of Superior that South Bend is a ghost town damaged by time, lack of care and raiders that just swoop the place. I mean why would they spend so much ressources going so far away (considering he lives in the commonwealth of Kentucky and that's REALLY far away from northern Indiana) just to get the same conclusions as them and coming back, spending so much for achieving nothing new. Also why would the Commonwealth of Kentucky be that much interested in northern Indiana considering there's some pretty bad doomsday strikes in its center that shield them from potential dangers from there?

Also, permit me to laugh cause it's an hilarious mistake but, young unitedstatian, the navy they mention in the Commonwealth of Kentucky and the one you imagine are not at all the same thing. When talking about "possessing a small navy", they're talking about an actual navy (with boats and stuff) and not a Navy seal squadron. So for a navy set to patrol lakes on a role historically linked to preventing smuggling, managing coast guards and fighting illegal fishing or other illegal activities on water (in lakes anyway), I think you now figure out why I think he's a bit overequipped for such a task. I get that the late 80s here are more riskier than in our timeline for a navy, that there's human trafficking, smuggling of the few drugs still avaible, even the possibilty of armed groups trying to insurrect in local areas to establish warlord chiefdoms but still, with camouflage and all that, he's a bit paranoiac you might think with that picture. For the college thingie, I was aking how he managed to get the funds necessary to college and why he would go there in the first place. What jobs did he do? Were the parents responsible for convincing him to still go to college against the general mentality in rural Indiana at this point that doesn't see the point of going there? Also why did his parents took refuge in Kentucky instead of a closer city-state like Muncie or Marion in north east Indiana (who don't have their own page by the way)? To make my point more clear, just look at this map and tell how in the world would they choose Evansville in the southwest? https://geology.com/cities-map/indiana.shtml and https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Doomsday_(1983%3A_Doomsday)#United_States for the strikes in Indiana wich includes Indianapolis, Fort Wayne and Gary among others.

Condoleeza Rice: Yeah, doesn't make much sense for her to go to anarchist California republic. I sincerely thinks she won't make it alive unless it goes the only sort of way I could imagine: to Visalia and even with that I'm still not 100% convinced the king in place wouldn't do bad things to her as an intellectual.Good that you go expend her background.

CARICOM: You're mixing two points I've made. First for the flags thing, I was thinking about something like this. For the template, I was talking about you making a template like this, with a small CARICOM flag on each side of the title like this. How about you give it a try to help you get more used with what this wiki can do and I'll give the finishing touch if needed? If you wouldn't like my finishing touch you could correct it and boom! A template to integrate to your page. The most important part is having a rational smile on your face like this . See? It worked!

Joe Torre: What canon are you reffering to? Could you show me the pages you used as reference for the trade "caravans"? I'd like to see them. Especially in regard to safety as, how nice and philanthropic he might be, I don't think he'd be willing to put his life in danger like that if it was so risky for these caravans to do trade. Are these caravans even accepting ordinary non-trading people like him? Also, I've read about his passion for horses races, might add something about that (without making him the messianic figure that brought back, on his own, horse races throughout the United States to interdimensional acclaim :D   ). Horses are also a lot more required for transport and other so I don't think there's really people willing to let valuable horses be used for the mere sake of racing for bets or just seeing the point of horse racing anymore. So that could be a realistic lose for him.

New Jersey Skylands: Love how you added a justification for the term "skylands" and the geography of this place. Makes sense now and help give the imagination a better picture of the land. I'd squish down a little the regiment picture as it is a bit too wide (use px to help). This is definitely my favourite of your articles, not only is it well written, it is coherent, well showed and makes total sense (levels of "why has no one thought about this before"). 92% great. Only thing is to add the current lieutenant-governor and, unless you plan an article to list them all, remove the url in the infobox. Beside that, 100% ready to be a canon article. I still think naming a section after a Bon Jovi or a Bruce Springsteen song is a bit out of style concerning the usual style of DD.

Zeppelins: No, just no. There's just no way it would work with the public mind. It would be seen as farfetched. Small STOL/seaplanes only could make air travel possible depending on the locations, all the oil needed raises some doubts however. Sorry.

Torrington: When you need experts in map making, you can always count on the Experts page. I suggest Imperium Guy. Now, what I akwardly said in my critic on your talk page is that cycling pubs like that have no way to be there given they were invented in the Netherlands in 1997, it was a nice try but it's just not realistic. Again, the flag is beautiful and totally fit the context...but (sorry I'm not doing it just to complain)...the explanation behind the blue bar is still cheesy and a contrast to other DD articles, it just feels out of place. You're doing great but be careful not to deviate too much from what is written.

Bollywood: Yes, please expend on that propaganda era, it could be interesting. For the name of the studio, you won me over your arguments, I'll accept them.

James Bond: Haha, I'm happy you liked my story. I put a lot of heart into it despite never having seen a James Bond movie nor read one of the novels he appeared in. I don't like the idea of him going throughout Africa, even if it is small, because it makes the novel loose focus into too many subplots and this one isn't really necessary nor relevant to the plot. It's nice for the ending to go full circle I think, especially the hidden symbolism that could have a meaningful effect to the readers of a post-DD world. I don't know about you but that whole arc about him adapting to civilian life would fit better as an epilogue because it feels so different from the main story and would have a more powerful impact at the end, leaving it as bittersweet. James Bond in civilian everyday life with no exotism feels out of character. It is more interesting I think that he don't have a home to fight for, leaving the character into a relatable position with his psychology being more at the center of importance in the book, having a past catch up to him with the attitude you described. Also, why not make the Bond Girl a daredevil marine life specialist who got cut off from her native Australia into Somalia? That would be great and on point with the message. Remember that I said that the group of officials from pre-DD Somalia ARE the vilains and warlords. They are one and the same, making the comeback encounter more entertaining. Why would there be travellers in a war-torn Somalia? Getting orders to come to New Britain after the mission is straightfoward and more realistic within the story as the british forces pacified the region, ready to take him back. For Connery, ok fair enough, good reasoning. Same for the trivia, I wasn't aware of such a big fanbase for the novels. Now, remember that American Comics was the result of the justice system of Australia (and it's special link with the ex-USA giving it a sort of spiritual succesor flair due to the integration of one over the other), not New Britain. Some justice systems have no copyright laws or made public domain all pre-doomsday things. 


Bush: Not just for the death but the WHOLE article needs to have the appropriate tone as I too harshly explained the other day. The US troops definitely, in such a psychological and world state, would crack down and commit war crimes, including rapes and abitrary out of sight executions. It was first and foremost for the USA a military asset going away of their empire, perhaps later more human reasoning to intervene in Hawaii when it was clear they couldn't have any hope of maintaining it as part of the US given history both ancient and recent...needing to save face in other words given their responsability in letting them down into civil and nuclear war. It is an invasion no matter how you look at it. The 1992 election needs a section also (but you have plans for that I'm sure).


India name: I know right? It sounds so good. However that part about annexing is really bugging me, it doesn't look like Tamil Nadu would be annexed nor Sikhim as they have strong historical opposition to be part of India. It doesn't look it was the result of a consensus so I don't know what to make of it. You should talk with Imperium Guy about that, perhaps I'm wrong. But for such a union the caretakers and the community of DD must all approve of such a decision based on evidence leading to it and I don't know if it canonically happened. 2008 sounds like a logical good choice for the name change. Just make sure to add a segment mentionning the old name. Also, perhaps you could add maps from the page's talk page if they can serve to illustrate the evolution of the borders of India and the breakaway states.


For articles like Mcgraven wich we 100% agreed upon on all details, according to the editorial guidelines it needs one week without anyone objecting to a post you made saying you will canonize said article. Once the post stating this intention is posted, that a week passed, you can remove the banner and integrate it into corresponding categories and templates.


That's pretty much it, still need some experience but you'll get to it soon enough. Have a nice day. SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)





CURRENT REVIEWS

Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed, the review template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be marked as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the review template will be removed without having to change the article.

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1, Archive 2

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

I'm joining the team

Hello my name is CnocBride and I am going to be joining this project in a way. I really want to help out with this collaborative timeline. So I am just introducing myself I am very interested in history and love this timeline and I am always happy to help. If anyone wants to give me some advice on were to start or has articles that I would like to develop please notify me CnocBride (talk) 15:30, September 2, 2016 (UTC)

More Nations in Eastern China

I'm not quite sure how many nukes were detonated in Eastern China, but looking at the map it doesn't seem to be so much. Looking at population in eastern china and how many small-but-large cities there are in the area, couldn't there be either a few somewhat-medium sized or a bunch of little nations?

Golen II (talk) 01:07, November 3, 2016 (UTC)

something I have in mind

Hello. 

I am interested in creating a nation located in Former DRC, republic of Mongala-Tshuapa. It has a population of 3 million, and is a parlimentary democracy. It's primarily run by subsistence agriculutre, however, some universities are opening, and the government is slowly providing electricticy to the nation. The Prime minister is head of government. Executive power is run by government while while legitsaltive power is run by the parliment. The Judiciary is indepedent of both branches. The President of Mongala - Tshuapa is eleclected by the house of People's Representatives for a four year term. The Prime minister is chosen by Parliment. The location of the country is self explanatory. Also, its politics are dominated by Social Democrat/revolutionary democrat somewhat populist groups, similar to venezuela's OTL bolivarian socialists, or the Ethiopian EPRDF. 

user talk: Warrioroffreedom123 23:58, May 19, 2017 (UTC)warrioroffreedom123

Regarding the Doomsday page

On the Doomsday page, the target lists for the US and USSR are really long and confusing, it would make a lot of sense to split it up by state/SSR into smaller sections. Also, someone should add a thing showing how many warheads/bombs were launched at each country, for comparison purposes. I can do both of these myself but I want to know what all your thoughts are on this.Atarashimono (talk) 03:10, June 11, 2017 (UTC)

I agree.--Katie P Perry (talk) (talk) 00:12, October 13, 2018 (UTC)

Hello

Hello, I am Kelothan. I am making articles for the timeline now!Kelothan (talk) 23:54, October 12, 2018 (UTC)

Martin Luther King Jr.

I am still working on this article, but I would like to know if there are objections to making this article about his legacy and deification in the Post Doomsday era cannon eventually

Discord Server?

Can someone create a discord server for this subreddit?

Art mapping (talk) 13:29, May 10, 2019 (UTC) I'm creating a page about a survivor italian nation near Milan: it's the city of Monza, it's still WIP and it is far from over, but I'd like to know what do you think about this article and if it's gonna be canon 

How in the world do you know where the nuclear strikes went? it's not like i can just look on the map an say, "oh, so that's where the nuke #whatever went!" how do you know it? Bluepotato81 (talk) 13:23, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

hi

hello. Owen2019 (talk) 20:14, January 10, 2020 (UTC)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwLs22Hxi6Q

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:54, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

/* NEW PROPOSAL */

hey guys just created a new proposal it's called inuit country

it could really use your help 

plz help

Bluepotato81 (talk) 12:35, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

Allie DeBerry

No one objected to it so it gets to be canon


Woah woah woah, hold your horses there. I clearly object with unilateraly canonizing things without consultation. You are burning steps here and it starts getting a bit annoying. Also, it is part of the rules to put your signature at the end of each post. You didn't do that here. Give me the time to properly analyze your beloved Allie DeBerry article and I'll give feedback.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 21:50, March 23, 2020 (UTC)


Here is my feedback: I'm sorry but your article is impossible to be true in this form in this timeline. First of all, the incident behind this nuclear war was not known in any way by the public at the time being. If her parents didn't have any clue to move to Australia before the 26th of September 1983 in real life, they can't have it here. What was before the actions that changed the timeline are untouchable, unchangeable. They were in college you say in Texas? Look at wich places where bombed on Doomsday (look here ), as well as the violence, food shortages and refugee crisis that took place. Give me a good reason as to how they managed to get to Australia, I can't personally find one. Realism is the rule here, not emotions. Also New York City is almost entirely a ultra radioactive swamp, there's probably no cemetary that survived that and no way SHE could survive that visiting here, let alone that some person miraculously found the dead body of Madonna and a free tombstone to grave her name when all were running for their life.

You got to make serious changes.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:42, March 23, 2020 (UTC

)https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Allie_DeBerry_%281983:_Doomsday%29

better?

Iluv80s (talk) 01:22, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

It's already an improvement. Did her parents really went to study abroad in Australia that year? Sorry, I just apply the rules in the editorial guidelines. Answer me on that please. Also the claim that "music is stuck in the 80s" is untrue if you pay attention to what happens in the timeline as well as being out of place here, I think you should remove it. Lighting Point is a 2012 show, so considering it still proceed to exists here is farfetched. Read extensively about the Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand, the full thing: its history, its culture, its medias... and try to picture yourself how it feels to live there, how did the culture evolved there given the circumstances of all going on in 1983DD and the destruction of Sydney, Melbourne and Perth? If you didn't get it, I ask you to imagine something new that feels authentic to the country, its culture and and its events before and after Doomsday given the timeline. It's a creative timeline, invent a new show if you insist on her being an actress (is there even a market there for such type of teenage drama shows given the context and current culture? Or would she act in something else? Is there any life experiences she lived in this totally different childhood she had compared to our world?). 

Also Houston is as toxic as it is dangerous (talking Chernobyl levels of radiation here in one of the hardest hit cities in the US by one of the strongest nuclear bombs) and frankly, I doubt anyone would bury the peoples that got killed by radiation given how dangerous it is, doubt even she would know where even that singer she search for would be. No governement controls the areas of Houston, it's just crazy to go there. Unless you have a VERY good reason why she'd risk her life like that.

Read carefully what I said, answer my questions and improve your article. You're on the good track.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:06, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

  1. It's probable that they did. First of all, I did reasearch and Allie's were probably born in the early 60s, thus making them in college that year. Second, Allie mentioned on her Instagram how she and her parents like to be on the beach. So that adds up
  2. The culture there evolved from nostalgia from before Doomsday
  3. I feel like she would act in something else, probably a Darth Vader anthology film
  4. Her parents would tell her about Doomsday and what they saw on the news that day

Iluv80s (talk) 02:34, March 24, 2020 (UTC)



Did you even read the Doomsday page with all the striked places? London's even worse in terms of radioactivity and even more chaotic after the strike! Also that's a pretty dumb reason (sorry) to pay expensive college overseas unless they were very fortunate. Not everyone goes to college as well. What tells you Debbie Harry was actually in London when Doomsday arrived (you can't make up something, it can only be reality before the divergence)? Star wars movies are extremely big budget films, the post-doomsday Australia doesn't have a very profitable market nor the big sources of money to fund the project or justify it in the eyes of potential producers nor the studios and equipment to film this sort of stuff. I get it, Star Wars is outstanding for a world not used to such high budget cinematographic saga and is now free of copyright in this world if I'm correct, but it still doesn't make sense. Imagine something new, interesting and authentic to the ANZC instead. PLEASE stop editing over and over again your talk page posts and articles, it sends too many notifications to me in a short period of time and it gets really annoying. Take the time, re-read yourself and when you're sure of what you're about to say/write, you post. Plain and simple.

Now I wonder, if she's SO much your "friend" as you say, why don't you simply ask her yourself what her parents were up to in september 1983? Show me evidence of the existence of her answer to you and I'll accept it.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:29, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Maybe she doesnt go anywhere at all since its not safe. Maybe her parents just drop out after being stuck in Brisbane. Or they couldve just gone for a weekend date, September 26 was a Monday. Im not sure what shed act in or whered she go instead. i put in the part about debbie harry's graveso allie gets the inspiration to be a singer.I'm really sorry I kept sending you so much notifs. I'll stop doing that

Iluv80s (talk) 03:37, March 24, 2020 (UTC)


Look, you don't understand what the problem is here: without evidence of the parents being in Australia or somewhere safe, the WHOLE thing collapses because they would not survive Doomsday in Houston and therefore their daughter would never be born as a result. Read again my last two sentences in my previous post and do exactly that instead. You just seem to invent whatever reason possible to have her even if it is completely unrealistic. I want the truth and nothing more.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:51, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

How about I just leave the 1983 doomsday timeline alone. It's obviously making me very upset becuase of the allie deberry thing and how important she is to me

Iluv80s (talk) 04:00, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Wait, what if I make her parents Aussie and not American in that timeline? Itll make me feel way better. 

Iluv80s (talk) 04:11, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allie_DeBerry User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 23:02, April 23, 2020 (UTC)

I just thought you knew her and therefore could get a nice, definitive answer for this (according to your OWN words). Sorry to know you sadly lied to me it seems (you lied too for all the notifs you send me by completely changing your answer so many times). Other timelines users will perhaps not be as patient as me for your Allie DeBerry obsession, it's just not fun. For the one-trillion time (and the LAST time cause I'm starting to have no more patience now): NO, you can't twist reality however you want, that's not what this timeline is about. THE TIMELINE DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND ALLIE DEBERRY, she's not the center of the universe here, the timeline revolves around a NUCLEAR war and its consequences. This kind of war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG2aJyIFrA

You can make it work, just do the appropriate amount of efforts to do so. Hard but not impossible. I know you can do it.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:32, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Brisbane

I got comformation from Allie DeBerry herself that her parents were in Brisbane at the time for a weekend date. Iluv80s (talk) 22:51, March 26, 2020 (UTC)


Show me proof, I don't believe you. You started a whole new threat when you could just continue the old one.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:54, March 26, 2020 (UTC)

How to feel better about this timeline?

After a traumatic childhood, two things help me cope, 80s pop culture and Allie DeBerry. Reading this timeline simply shook me. Why can't at least Allie survive, if not the 80s?Iluv80s (talk) 02:23, April 8, 2020 (UTC)


I-DON'T-CARE! If that sort of things traumatize you, get off the Internet entirely for your own good (sincerely). You only got yourself to blame here. I already explained to you 10000000000000000000000000000000000 times why your Allie DeBerry and 1980s culture can't work in the context. I am TIRED of what's now clearly harassment. Why did you have to come back here? You had your own timeline to edit your "trauma", everything was okay, what was wrong? You know what? I don't care either about your answer to be frank!  Now you're crossing a red line in the guide of conduct in this wiki forbidding constant harassment about anything in a wiki (here CONSTANTLY spamming me about wanting to include your teenage cheesy actress and 1980s culture when I, clearly, and politely, said NO, NO it CAN'T work here but you still didn't listen and harassed me). And for that I'll give you one very last chance to just stop and return to your 2009: timeline where you can do what you want THERE, else I'll be obligated to bring in a admin who, clearly, you won't be able to convince to not ban you entirely off this wiki. Please, for your own good, stay in your timelines and leave us alone.

Sincerely

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:45, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Hey. I see that this followed a long back-and-forth. But calm down. This is just a fictional timeline. Benkarnell (talk) 12:56, May 26, 2020 (UTC)

Electricity

I just read about how in Threads they were able to regenerate electricity 10 years after the blast so by 1993 in this timeline affected areas have electricity again.Iluv80s (talk) 23:06, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

Coronavirus

I was reading this https://theweek.com/speedreads/913936/doctors-without-borders-sends-team-help-navajo-nation-battle-coronavirus here is my question woud there be a Covid19 pandemic in this ATL. Owen2019 (talk) 19:04, May 13, 2020 (UTC)


Global trade is clearly not strong enough in this timeline to lead to a coronavirus pandemic up to the scale that we're seeing now. Many cities were hit by nuclear attacks in China, making such a virus unlikely to escape the region (and severely reducing local trade). There's no brutal regime to censor its progression, meaning countries in the region would have been aware way earlier and ready to counter the virus before it goes too far. Also, Doomsday led to social and cultural changes in the region, making it uncertain that animal markets would still exist in DD's 2020. Also, there's many types of possible viruses, history of many small catalysts led it to be a coronavirus, making it impossible to be replicated as in our timeline here.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:41, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

thanks, [[User:SigmaHero045|SigmaHero045. Owen2019 (talk) 11:45, May 23, 2020 (UTC)]]

Allie wouldn't survive, but Shakira would

Shakira was in Columbia during Doomsday as a 6 year old while Allie's parents were most likely in Texas Iluv80s (talk) 15:20, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

I think the Allie page should be taken out

She woul;d be alive since her parents live in Kingswood, but then she would most likley be a peasant girl, not a singer. Shakira lived in Columbia so she was surviver and be a celebrity.

Even more importantly, she was born after the PoD in 1983, so in this timeline she wouldn't be born at all. (Doomsday was so disruptive that it's safe to say that next to no OTL people born after that date would be born under the altered circumstances. It would require the same pair of people having sex at exactly the same moment, and all that.) Benkarnell (talk) 12:50, May 26, 2020 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS

Adopting Brazil

Hey, is there any problem to contribute in/adopt the few articles of Brazil in the timeline? I believe that there is some stuff that needs to be revised.

I have changed a few bits in the story, to be more adapted to the timeline. Bolsonaro's campaign was mostly concentrated on the internet, so I'm not sure that he would rise in the same way in the timeline.

Mass (talk) 18:27, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

Malawian Civil War

I am looking to expand the Malawi page and I wanted to add a more detailed description of what events occurred during the Malawian Civil War.  

I would like to adopt the article -True British Army (1983: Doomsday).

I would like to adopt the True British Army (1983: Doomsday) page to create an ecanomic policy (I'm sure they will have at least some farms, several basic arms factories and a few penal slave labour camps) and to add to both the political and organizational aspects of the TBA.

EoGuy99 did the last edit (a spelling and grammar check) 04:53, September 1, 2016‎

The creators last edits were: 18:26, January 20, 2012‎ Smoggy80 and 18:15, November 27, 2011‎ Fegaxeyl.

The official T.L. guide says "So, if an editor has been missing for three months, another editor can adopt his articles. We ask that the adopting editor make an attempt to contact the missing editor by leaving a message on his or her talk page. If the missing editor does not respond in one week, the adopting editor can safely become the new caretaker of the article in question." [1].

I have asked EoGuy99, Smoggy80 and Fegaxeyl and if they either agree or don't say anything in 2 weeks I will assume temporary authority over it and add some more detail to it.

  • Some of my ideas.
The unofficial TBA mottos and popular war cries were: "Bugger off darkie foreigners!", "No surrender to the IRA!", Put Zion under the flat iron!", "Better dead than red!", "No surrender to the GDR!", and "Death to fagots and Nancy boys!". They well summarized their toxicity racist, homophobic, anti-Communist and anti-Semitic mentally.
The opencast quarrying for ironstone at Ryebury Hill and Sidegate Lane, on land he owned on the south west edge of Finedon, Northants, ended in 1980; but restarted in 1987. It was one of the TBA's most prized assets.
Buckingham is surrounded by sand pits. They were run by the Penal Labour Commission.
The penal 'Terminator Chalk Mine' opened near Princes Risborough in 1992. It was run by the Penal Labour Commission.
Several of the TBA's founders had post atomic-holocaust PTSE and were no longer thinking logical, thus they were so brutal and militaristic after the war.
The lowest of all TBA military units is a locally recruited 5 man "parole unit".
The still anonymous ultimate heads of the Penal Labour Commission and National Security Commission were ranked as "Master Sergeants".
The TBA's homicidal destruction of the March 25th, 2007, Loughborough food riot; mid 2007 to late 2008 Brackley-Daventry-Long Buckby food riots, The early 2009 Towcester farmers' tax strike and the May 25, 2009, blacksmiths' tax protests in Daventry by both a Kettering based occupation Battalion and the numerous local TBA platoons in the protesting localizes.
Thugish policing policy.
Rudimentary local government structures.
Skirmishes with tribes in Oxfordshire and southern Buckinghamshire.
An official oath.
A local news sheet.
A Porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome virus (PRRSV) outbreak in late 2005 and early 2006.
  • User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:49, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

Opposed by mods, no support.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:29, July 14, 2020 (UTC).

I would like to adopt the article -Scotland (1983: Doomsday).

I would like to adopt the Scotland (1983: Doomsday) page to create an economic policy (I'm sure they will have at least some farms, some basic food processing factories and a few fishing vessels) and to add to both the general political, national policing and local organisational aspects of it.

EoGuy99 did the last edit (a spelling and grammar check) 05:46, June 5, 2019‎.

The creator's ( Smoggy80) last edits was at: 19:10, February 18, 2013‎.

The official T.L. guide says "So, if an editor has been missing for three months, another editor can adopt his articles. We ask that the adopting editor make an attempt to contact the missing editor by leaving a message on his or her talk page. If the missing editor does not respond in one week, the adopting editor can safely become the new caretaker of the article in question." [2].

I have asked EoGuy99 and Smoggy80 and if they either agree or don't say anything in 2 weeks I will assume temporary authority over it and add some more detail to it. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 22:04, July 10, 2020 (UTC)

No support.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:29, July 14, 2020 (UTC)

Video games

Would more developed nations develop video games ie the SAC or ANSC I was thinking a Rainbow six style game were you hade to expel. Sicilian troops from an island in the Mediterranean. Owen2019 (talk) 13:53, June 24, 2020 (UTC)


There is already an article on on arcade games https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Arcade_Games_(1983%3A_Doomsday)

Ivory Coast

I've noticed that the Ivory Coast page is a stub and I want to expand on it. I was going to add information relating to an Ivorian Civil War that occurs in the 1990s or 2000s, which would include the factions in Liberia such as the DRL. Does this seem fine? I will also be adding information on the Ivory Coast's economy, military, and geography. (Flabby Cheeks for life) (Talk)

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