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GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

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Thoughts on Western Slope of Colorado

Although Colorado seems to control almost the entire eastern and nrothern parts of the state, there is little known about the western slope, other then that the Navajo control a small portion around the four corners. As someone who has lived there for a significant portion of my younger life, I feel like I can contribute to the lore of the area. I propose either expanding Colorado to have control over these areas, or to create a new state in the US.I just added this to the colorado page as an interim measure.

The Rocky Mountains had always posed a challenge to travel between the east and west parts of the state. However, by 2020, contact had been made with the Western Slope, which had survived doomsday almost completely intact, and furthermore, had been shielded by radiation by the mountains. Although Utah controls a decent portion of the Western Slope, the larger cities of Grand Junction, Montrose, and Delta officially rejoined the state in 2014.




Thoughts on North Pennsylvania and neighbors

I'm sorry if I'm posting incorrectly or posting too much. But I have some detailed thoughts on my favorite nation that I'd like to put to the group, or at least those interested.

There are three areas that I’d like to work on, for starters.

First, correct some minor errors such as misspelled names and mislocated sites.  I hope I can do that without consulting the board.

Second, reconciling existing canon.  For example, the articles say that Gannon College survived the nuke but don’t mention Penn State Behrend.  They also say that Northwest Harborcreek survived.

Gannon is in downtown Erie, Northwest Harborcreek is a few miles east, and Penn State Behrend is south of Northwest Harborcreek.  If both Gannon and NW Harborcreek survived, Behrend had to unless the missile hit well south of Behrend, in which case Erie would be in much better shape.  

Further, the major worthwhile targets in Erie, much of the port and the GE locomotives factory, are roughly between Gannon and NW Harborcreek.  A properly targeted missile should wipe out the downtown, NW Harborcreek and probably Behrend.

I would propose that the missile was slightly off target and impacted on the west side of Erie, around Rt. 832 and Waldameer Park.  That would save canon, and I’d add Behrend to the list of colleges.  It would also leave the GE plant largely intact, with irradiation abating now, and in turn would add an export product.

Similarly, the canon is ambiguous about Jeep manufacture, some statements indicate it’s happening in Toledo, others in Franklin.  One way to reconcile would be to have the chassis, cab and wheels fabricated in NP and import the engine and drive train from Toledo, with NP sending back chassis, etc. to Toledo to supplement its work.

I assume this kind of thing should be written up as a proposal.

Third, I’d like to pick up the timeline from about 2011, consistent with the few things that have been written with story dates thereafter.  To do that I’m looking first at the economics of NP.

NP’s biggest deficit is electric power.  Other major deficits are food supply, iron ore or metal for use in industry, pharmaceuticals and medical supplies, rubber, copper, nickel and other metals for alloys, and fertilizers (there’s lots of limestone but not other).

Its advantages include oil and natural gas, and refineries (several of which that operated in 1983 have been omitted, the actual refining capacity far away from Erie, Youngstown and Pittsburgh is at least 50,000 bbl/day).  NP would probably need by now to import crude oil to meet that capacity level.  Other advantages include untouched iron and steel mills, machine tooling (especially near Meadville), wood and lumber, coal (strip mining would have to be revived), probably locomotive manufacture as noted above, mining machinery and oil and gas tooling factories at Oil City and Bradford.

Looking at the deficits, State College can supply almost none of them.  Electricity might be available either from Niagara Falls or by adding capacity (if turbines can be obtained) to several other small hydro plants (Piney, Tionesta, Clarion River). Food maybe from Susquehanna/Reading, but Ohio is much easier to access if you can get around Cleveland and Ohio may have fewer demands on its export potential.  Although NP was an iron ore producer in the 1840’s, those mines are pretty much tapped out. But there’s a wealth of scrap southwards toward Pittsburgh and Youngstown, and not all is still irradiated.  Further, there’s a huge synthetic rubber plant west of Monaca in SW Pa. that could be rehabilitated. (Unfortunately, it's on the side of the Ohio nearer Va.) In RL NP refineries imported some oil from W. Va.; presumably that's not going to happen but perhaps some importation from NW Ohio if the pipelines can be fixed.

Thus the logical course for NP is to strengthen its ties to the rest of the United Communities, to push back against Virginia’s incursions into southwest Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio and assure access to scrap, rubber and other big city resources, and to join international trade networks to the extent practicable to obtain medical items, turbines, varied foodstuffs and other imports.  Merging with State College doesn’t do much for any of those unless State College is willing to fight for SW Pennsylvania.

So, my tentative course of action would be for NP to get into a loose confederation, rather than a merger, with State College, hopefully getting a defense guarantee from State College. NP would guard its freedom of action to develop strong economic and diplomatic ties with the UC and remainder Canada.  NP would continue to maintain a relatively large army with training and logistical support from Canada and would push deliberately into Butler, Beaver, north Allegheny, Armstrong and northern Westmoreland counties, Pa., to obtain resources.  A secondary push would be into Trumbull and Mahoning counties, Ohio and possibly westward into Summit (Akron) and Portage counties;  this would intensify if Virginia resisted entry into SW Pa. successfully.  A non-military program to pick up more of Chautauqua and southern Erie counties, NY, would help obtain more arable land.

How does this all sound?

Renaultlouis (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)Renaultlouis

Based on previous conversations that were had regarding strikes on Erie, I believe the general consensus was the nuke would have hit the eastern side of the city, towards the manufacturing plants, as the EMP and blast would ruin the rest of the city.

Allegheny, Clarion, Edinboro, and Titusville are the major universities in North Pennsylvania. Gannon was founded by surviving assets of Mercyhurst and Gannon that formed a small private college post Doomsday. Given that Berhend is public and the region around Erie likely have a substantially lower population than OTL, I don’t think it would be reformed.

I would imagine the situation regarding the Jeep is likely along the lines of: the company is headquartered and design is done in North Pennsylvania, but a bulk of the manufacturing and assembly is done in Toledo.

A major error that needs corrected is regarding the capital of North Pennsylvania. Various sources (including the nation’s page) indicate both Franklin and Warren as the capital city. I would suggest Warren, given its closer proximity to Edinboro, Meadville, and Oil City which are likely the major population centers.

For largest cities, New Castle, OTL is the largest city in Pennsylvania that falls within NP borders (33,621 as of 1980 Census). Based on their expansion into New York, Jamestown is the largest city (35,755 as of the 1980 Census). However it is distinctly possible that both cities were depopulated after Doomsday due to proximity to nuked cities and refugees overwhelming the local governments.

Deep within its borders, the largest cities would be Hermitage (16,365: 1980 Census), Meadville (15,544: 1980 Census), Oil City (13,881: 1980 Census), and Warren (12,146: 1980 Census). I would nominate Meadville or Oil City due to proximity to Erie.

Also, I would suggest completely redoing the section regarding regions. I think the most likely scenario is that it would continue using the county system. Right now with the regions they are, each has a wildly different in area and population. One region (Pennstate) composed of OTL Crawford, McKean, and Warren counties is 2,921 square miles with 230,000 people, while the neighboring region (Forest) is only 430 square miles with a population of 3,000 people.

I do think low population counties would be grouped together, but this absolutely needs to be reviewed.

Regarding port cities, unfortunately I don’t think Erie could be rebuilt as a port for a few decades still due to the direct impact on the city irradiating the area. Barring Erie, none of the other towns in Erie County, PA have natural ports and even to present day OTL only have rocky shores or very small moveable docks for pleasure craft. The two likely replacements I found are Dunkirk, New York or Ashtabula, Ohio.

They are both roughly the same distance, but Ashtabula has a more developed port area. However, I am not sure how it would be affected by the strikes (possibly multiple) on Cleveland.

North Pennsylvania is in the best position given its location, it can trade via Lake Erie with other industrialized nations that survived like Niagara Falls and Toledo. It additionally, can acquire parts to repair and rebuilt existing factories. Around Erie, there is plastic and metal fabrications as well as bearing production, rubber, steel, and minor oil production.

Just to note, while the borders haven’t been nailed down, Virginia has been creeping into southwestern Pennsylvania for the last few years. So I don’t think anything in the Pittsburg metro will be in NP territory at the moment. Given Virginia’s territorial…aggression, this could set up a major conflict.

The general consensus has been that Pennsylvania is falling into four major power blocs:

  • Gettysburg (proxy state for Virginia, albeit less militant) and Virginia to a small extent (probably the last 10-15 years or so)
  • North Pennsylvania (proxy state for Canada)
  • Reading (along with Lehigh and Susquehanna)
  • State College (Independent)

Right now, Reading, Susquehanna, and State College have been squabbling over reunification for the last 5 years or so. Basically, Reading and State College disagree over the capital city and which government is the “legitimate” successor state, while Susquehanna wants to guarantees to maintain autonomy in its economy, internal affairs, and defense (Lehigh is a protectorate technically speaking of Reading and Susquehanna, so it really doesn’t have a voice). North Pennsylvania has been somewhat off doing its own thing aligning more towards Canada.

Economically, North Pennsylvania is doing the best out of all the PA survivor states as it has access to the lake and easier access to markets in Canada as well as strong ties with Toledo, Niagara Falls, London (Ontario), and Superior. In part due to this, it hasn’t really been involved in reunification discussions and doesn’t have as much impetus to do so.

North Pennsylvania has been focusing on expansion into New York and Ohio, likely to get secured land routes to Toledo and Niagara Falls (and Canada). Expanding south towards Virginia doesn't give as much economic benefit. Even though Virginia is a military powerhouse and economic power in that area, that is relative to neighboring states that are significantly smaller or underdeveloped.

Electricity has been a bit of a sticking point for Pennsylvania as a lot of plants in the state at Doomsday were coal fired or were nuke plants that didn’t survive. In NP controlled territory, there are the following power plants:

New York

  • Coal
    • Dunkirk Generating Station (Chautauqua County): 505 MW (Decommissioned in 2016 OTL)

Pennsylvania

  • Coal
    • Bruce Mansfield Power Plant (Beaver County): 2,490 MW (Decommissioned in 2019 OTL)
    • Franklin Phillips Power Station (Beaver County): Unknown MW (Decommissioned in 1990’s OTL)
    • George F. Wheaton Power Station (Beaver County): 110 MW (Decommissioned in 2012 OTL)
  • Energy Storage
    • Seneca Pump Storage Energy Station (Warren County): 435 MW
  • Hydroelectric
    • Piney Hydroelectric (Clarion County): 27 MW
  • Natural Gas
    • New Castle (Franklin County): Unknown MW
  • Nuclear
    • Beaver Valley Nuclear Generating Station (Beaver County): 960 MW (just to note: part of the plant wasn’t online until 1987)

I think most likely the hydroelectric plant was restored. I don’t think the energy storage plant could be repaired, it is very parts intensive, but I could be wrong. While there are vast amounts of natural gas in Pennsylvania, in OTL, it has only been in the past decade an a half that fracking has become popular and used which helped reduce the price of extraction. Due to this, I don’t think in ATL, the natural gas would be an available resource. Additionally, there are no active coal mines in NWPA. In OTL, the majority of anthracite mining in Pennsylvania is in NEPA (ATL: Susquehanna and partially in Reading) and bituminous coal mining mainly occurs in SWPA (ATL: Virginia or unconfirmed/uncontrolled). In ATL, there could possibly be trade increasing to bring coal from Susquehanna to NP, but Susquehanna does not have the capacity to mine enough coal to feed all the power plants in NP.

There are two oil refineries in the territory that NP encompasses. The larger of the two is in Warren, PA (under NP control in Warren County) and the smaller is in Bradford, PA (under NP control in McKean County).

The Warren refinery was founded in 1902 and is currently operated by the United Refining Company and has a capacity to process up to 65,000 barrels of oil per day (it was not upgraded to 70,000 barrels per day until 2007). It produces gasoline, diesel, and other petroleum products (probably things like motor oil).

The Bradford refinery is currently operated by the American Refining Group and has a refinery capacity of processing 11,000 barrels of oil a day. The plant was founded over 125 years ago (as of 2021 OTL). It produces lubricants, extracts for rubber manufacturing, resins, solvents, and waxes.

Obviously the pre-strike EMP would devastate the plants but their isolation from the areas struck since as Erie, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Cleveland would leave them intact, albeit damaged from the EMP. However, they would really only need new electrical and rewiring to reboot. With support from Toledo and Niagara Falls, they could be restored and would be an important asset to the United Communities.

Regarding the armed forces, right now NP has an active force of around 25,000 personnel and 15,000 reservists. The majority are likely in the Army. I was unable to find proof of any military aircraft in territory under NP control, the PAANG units were stationed in Pittsburgh, Willow Grove (near Philly), Middletown, and Fort Indiantown Gap. Obviously it would have access to private aircraft, but they would not be useful in combat. The Coast Guard in the region was a small contingent of water rescue and light patrol boats (RHIBs with machine guns) on Presque Isle, and were likely lost on Doomsday. Again, it could probably commandeer civilian vessels but these would be non combat capable or only able to stop unarmed vessels.

That said, I could see NP acquiring combat and transport aircraft from other nations and I would imagine it has the capacity to maintain them. And it likely can manufacture its own light patrol boats and coastal patrol ships domestically.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)


Response to Daesunglim 8 July 2021 post

Daesunglim:  Thank you for your extensive and well-thought-out comments. Here are my thoughts, set off from your comments with ***:

Based on previous conversations that were had regarding strikes on Erie, I believe the general consensus was the nuke would have hit the eastern side of the city, towards the manufacturing plants, as the EMP and blast would ruin the rest of the city.

While I think that my theory works better, I’ll treat the east side hit as QSS and work from there.


Allegheny, Clarion, Edinboro, and Titusville are the major universities in North Pennsylvania. Gannon was founded by surviving assets of Mercyhurst and Gannon that formed a small private college post Doomsday. Given that Berhend is public and the region around Erie likely have a substantially lower population than OTL, I don’t think it would be reformed.

My proposal was to move the remaining personnel and assets of Behrend to Edinboro, which dovetails well with your statements.
However, you didn’t address several of the other higher education institutions in NP.  U. Pittsburgh at Bradford was bigger than Titusville (and unlike Titusville is still viable).  It should have survived, Bradford being 90 miles from everywhere. I think under QAA I can develop its role.  Also, Bradford/McKean County has been neglected in the NP stories and I want to correct that. 
Thiel and Westminster Colleges in Mercer County should have physically survived, but almost certainly would be unable to continue given losses of students and faculty. Penn State Shenango was close to Youngstown and would similarly be likely to close because of fallout and losses. I’m going to suggest that their assets were moved to Allegheny.*** 

I would imagine the situation regarding the Jeep is likely along the lines of: the company is headquartered and design is done in North Pennsylvania, but a bulk of the manufacturing and assembly is done in Toledo.

Your suggestion is possible, but I think mine is more plausible.  Although there were and are a lot of machine shops and metal fabrication in the Franklin area, there was nobody with automobile design and engineering experience in the area.  The staff at Joy is fully occupied.  Snagging the HQ and design functions without that advantage would probably require that the NP investors provide most of the capital – an unlikely event.  In my proposal I’ve suggested that Toledo do the difficult things for Jeeps – power train and steering, and probably lights, and Franklin can do the chassis, body, radiator and interior.  Obviously this division of labor can be tweaked, but I think it works.***

A major error that needs corrected is regarding the capital of North Pennsylvania. Various sources (including the nation’s page) indicate both Franklin and Warren as the capital city. I would suggest Warren, given its closer proximity to Edinboro, Meadville, and Oil City which are likely the major population centers.

I think your statement is counterfactual.  First, I didn’t see anything naming Warren as the capital, but there are plenty of references to Franklin.  Note that the NP main page says “Capital: Franklin,” shows the Venango County courthouse as the “Venango House,” the center of NP government (frankly, the next door Galena building is a much better HQ – maybe it houses departments), and there are repeated references to the governor and others being in Franklin.
The NP page does say that Warren is the capital of “Penn State,” the somewhat odd mashup of Crawford, Warren and McKean counties.  Warren is a somewhat logical capital of that mashup, being somewhat equidistant from Meadville and Bradford.  But as a capital of NP it’s terribly isolated, being 58 miles and 1 hour 20 minutes drive from Meadville in our times, 58 miles and 1 hour 20 from Franklin (50 from Oil City) and 59 miles from Edinboro.  Franklin is 27 miles from Meadville and 49 miles from Edinboro.  And with auto travel still impaired and the roads having reverted to gravel, distances are important. 
QSS definitely applies here.  Accordingly, I’m not going to move the capital to Warren.***

Also, I would suggest completely redoing the section regarding regions. I think the most likely scenario is that it would continue using the county system. Right now with the regions they are, each has a wildly different in area and population. One region (Pennstate) composed of OTL Crawford, McKean, and Warren counties is 2,921 square miles with 230,000 people, while the neighboring region (Forest) is only 430 square miles with a population of 3,000 people.

Agreed.  In my proposal I picked up on the existing statements on the NP page and NP history page that there was a constitutional revision (unspecified provisions) in 2011.  That’s a convenient, canon-consistent way to split up “PennState,” as shown in my proposal.  Crawford stands on its own after the 2011 constitutional revision and Warren and McKean are merged, pending growth. 
Forest County OTL is too small, but if you’ve ever spent time in Tionesta and Marienville you know that consolidating it is risking death threats.  I punted by suggesting, as in real life, that Venango County provides some governmental services, while Warren County provides judicial support.***

I do think low population counties would be grouped together, but this absolutely needs to be reviewed.

Aside from Forest and the proposed “federal district of Eriesburg” [sic], most counties are large enough to be viable, and given transportation difficulties, there are good reasons not to consolidate.

Regarding port cities, unfortunately I don’t think Erie could be rebuilt as a port for a few decades still due to the direct impact on the city irradiating the area. Barring Erie, none of the other towns in Erie County, PA have natural ports and even to present day OTL only have rocky shores or very small moveable docks for pleasure craft. The two likely replacements I found are Dunkirk, New York or Ashtabula, Ohio.

With ground zero on the east side, you’re right about Erie.  On top of the radiation, an east side hit would clog the harbor mouth.  Ashtabula has large iron ore unloading docks and is by far the better port choice.  It has excellent rail connections to Meadville, Corry, Franklin and Warren. It’s also closer to population centers, although not by much.  Dunkirk hosts pleasure boating only OTL and only has rail connections to Buffalo and Erie, but not southward except by an unused, decrepit line via Jamestown on a somewhat roundabout route.***

They are both roughly the same distance, but Ashtabula has a more developed port area. However, I am not sure how it would be affected by the strikes (possibly multiple) on Cleveland.

Ashtabula is 58 miles from Cleveland downtown and a bit farther from its industrial area. (It’s amazing how everything in NP is 58 miles from somewhere else.) It’s well northeast of Cleveland and prevailing winds at Cleveland on September 19 average 9 mph, while winds from the south and west that could reach Ashtabula do not exceed 25% of the time.  Accordingly, there is a good case that Ashtabula missed almost all of the physical destruction caused by strikes on Cleveland, Erie and Youngstown and is only plagued by the post-Doomsday general radiation plaguing everywhere. ***   

North Pennsylvania is in the best position given its location, it can trade via Lake Erie with other industrialized nations that survived like Niagara Falls and Toledo. It additionally, can acquire parts to repair and rebuilt existing factories. Around Erie, there is plastic and metal fabrications as well as bearing production, rubber, steel, and minor oil production.

Regarding oil, in Bradford, PA (under NP control in McKean County), the American Refining Group has a small refinery capable of processing 11,000 barrels of oil a day, which was founded over 125 years ago (as of 2021 OTL). Obviously the pre-strike EMP would devastate the plant, but it is isolated from cities struck during the nuclear holocaust and would simply need new electrical or be rewired around the computers. With support from Toledo and Niagara Falls, it could likely be restored and operational (likely at reduced capacity, say 8,000 barrels a day?) for a few years by 2021 ATL, and be in the process of expanding.

There are a lot more small refineries in the hills of NP that almost certainly survived than you’ve mentioned, and I’ve listed them in my proposal, including American Refining (which in 1983 was called Kendall).  The limiting factor is probably crude oil supply; in 1983 the supply of Pennsylvania Grade crude (which is what’s produced in NP) was actually slightly lower than refining capacity, and Wolfs Head and Pennzoil were not producing at capacity.  Quaker State’s Emlenton and Farmers Valley refineries had reliable supply.*** 

Just to note, while the borders haven’t been nailed down, Virginia has been creeping into southwestern Pennsylvania for the last few years. So I don’t think anything in the Pittsburg metro will be in NP territory at the moment. Given Virginia’s territorial…aggression, this could set up a major conflict.

That is precisely what I think will be the driving force of NP history in the 2015-2020 period. NP needs the scrap steel, copper and other metals, as well as parts and technology, that it can scavenge from the Pittsburgh and Youngstown areas. The Kobuta synthetic rubber plant on the Ohio river 30 miles northwest of Pittsburgh is a prize.  The Kubota tractor plant 25 miles southeast of Pittsburgh near Irwin is another prize. NP and Va. are going to skirmish, with NP aiming not to occupy Allegheny and southern Beaver counties but hoping to negotiate access at a price to those resources.  Best result would be designating the Ohio and Allegheny rivers as the borders of the spheres of influence, but Va. may be too aggressive to allow that. ***

The general consensus has been that Pennsylvania is falling into four major power blocs:

  • Gettysburg (proxy state for Virginia, albeit less militant) and Virginia to a small extent (probably the last 10-15 years or so)
  • North Pennsylvania (proxy state for Canada)
  • Reading (along with Lehigh and Susquehanna)
  • State College (Independent)

Right now, Reading, Susquehanna, and State College have been squabbling over reunification for the last 5 years or so. Basically, Reading and State College disagree over the capital city and which government is the “legitimate” successor state, while Susquehanna wants to guarantees to maintain autonomy in its economy, internal affairs, and defense (Lehigh is a protectorate technically speaking of Reading and Susquehanna, so it really doesn’t have a voice). North Pennsylvania has been somewhat off doing its own thing aligning more towards Canada.

And Toledo and Niagara Falls.  Unfortunately, that should mean that it’s on the outs with Superior.  Or perhaps, seeing Va. as the imminent enemy, NP is trying hard to be friends with Canada while courting Superior.  It may end badly.
NP’s interest in State College is pretty much limited to trying to get SC to provide military support for the coming clash with Va.  SC has hinted that reunification is a condition for that, but NP figures that once reunified, SC will take the easy road and let Va. do what it wants in S.W. Pa. in exchange for a non-aggression understanding as to the SC territories and Gettysburg. ***

Economically, North Pennsylvania is doing the best out of all the PA survivor states as it has access to the lake and easier access to markets in Canada as well as strong ties with Toledo, Niagara Falls, London (Ontario), and Superior. In part due to this, it hasn’t really been involved in reunification discussions and doesn’t have as much impetus to do so.

Agreed.  See my proposal.***

North Pennsylvania has been focusing on expansion into New York and Ohio, likely to get secured land routes to Toledo and Niagara Falls (and Canada). Expanding south towards Virginia doesn't give as much economic benefit. Even though Virginia is a military powerhouse and economic power in that area, that is relative to neighboring states that are significantly smaller or underdeveloped.

Well, unless Akron is undamaged, the Kobuta rubber works is essential, and transport from the Pittsburgh area to NP is easier than from Ohio (except for Youngstown).  Note that Virginia now has a port at Sandusky, between NP and Toledo, which jeopardizes a move into Ohio and trade with Toledo. NP may not be able to avoid Va. by moving west. ***

Electricity has been a bit of a sticking point for Pennsylvania as a lot of plants in the state at Doomsday were coal fired or were nuke plants that didn’t survive. In NP controlled territory, there are the following power plants:

New York

  • Coal
    • Dunkirk Generating Station (Chautauqua County): 505 MW (Decommissioned in 2016 OTL)

Pennsylvania

  • Coal
    • Bruce Mansfield Power Plant (Beaver County): 2,490 MW (Decommissioned in 2019 OTL)
    • Franklin Phillips Power Station (Beaver County): Unknown MW (Decommissioned in 1990’s OTL)
    • George F. Wheaton Power Station (Beaver County): 110 MW (Decommissioned in 2012 OTL)
  • Energy Storage
    • Seneca Pump Storage Energy Station (Warren County): 435 MW
  • Hydroelectric
    • Piney Hydroelectric (Clarion County): 27 MW
  • Natural Gas
    • New Castle (Franklin County): Unknown MW
  • Nuclear
    • Beaver Valley Nuclear Generating Station (Beaver County): 960 MW (just to note: part of the plant wasn’t online until 1987)

I think most likely the hydroelectric plant was restored. I don’t think the energy storage plant could be repaired, it is very parts intensive, but I could be wrong. While there are vast amounts of natural gas in Pennsylvania, in OTL, it has only been in the past decade an a half that fracking has become popular and used which helped reduce the price of extraction. Due to this, I don’t think in ATL, the natural gas would be an available resource. Additionally, there are no active coal mines in NWPA. In OTL, the majority of anthracite mining in Pennsylvania is in NEPA (ATL: Susquehanna and partially in Reading) and bituminous coal mining mainly occurs in SWPA (ATL: Virginia or unconfirmed/uncontrolled). In ATL, there could possibly be trade increasing to bring coal from Susquehanna to NP, but Susquehanna does not have the capacity to mine enough coal to feed all the power plants in NP.

Agreed, the Beaver Valley nuke is kaput.  The prize coal-fired electric plants in 1983 were the omer City  Generating Station, Indiana County (2.0 GW, enough to power 750,000 average homes and probably almost all of NP at full capacity), the Conemaugh Station, Indiana County (1.8 GW), Seward, Indiana County (585 MW) and Keystone, Armstrong County (1.9 GW).   Indiana County is closer to the SC border than NP, but Keystone is not far from the current southern border of NP.  Take Keystone along plus Kinzua, Piney Creek and whatever else NP can put together, and it’s OK.  Priority one is likely to be reopening Keystone before SC or Va. get to it. 
There’s plenty of bituminous coal in NP, there were dozens of strip mines in Venango, Clarion, Jefferson and east Mercer counties in 1983 – my family sold land to them.  And almost unlimited amounts in Armstrong and Indiana counties, which is why those mega coal plants are there OTL.
I’m agnostic about the fate of Seneca Pumped Storage.  There was an 80 MW coal-fired plant in Warren, which shut down in 2002 OTL and which also should be available to NP.
There were hardly any natural gas electric plants in NP in 1983, and in any case, although it produced some natural gas, it wasn’t able to meet all of its winter natural gas heating needs.  (Although presumably those were substantially reduced post-DD.) The flood of natgas didn’t arrive until the Marcellus Shale was fracked after 2000 OTL, and all the natgas electric plants in the NP area were constructed after that date.  Further, natgas plants need either turbines or high pressure steam boilers, which NP is not quite in a position to build itself. Even today OTL there’s only one natgas plant of any size in NP (Venango County, 295 MW)  with a second in Armstrong County just outside NP (688 MW).
BTW, there was no natgas plant in New Castle, Lawrence County in 1983, and in any case, Franklin County is across the state near Gettysburg.***

Regarding the armed forces, right now NP has an active force of around 25,000 personnel and 15,000 reservists. The majority are likely in the Army. I was unable to find proof of any military aircraft in territory under NP control, the PAANG units were stationed in Pittsburgh, Willow Grove (near Philly), Middletown, and Fort Indiantown Gap. Obviously it would have access to private aircraft, but they would not be useful in combat. The Coast Guard in the region was a small contingent of water rescue and light patrol boats (RHIBs with machine guns) on Presque Isle, and were likely lost on Doomsday. Again, it could probably commandeer civilian vessels but these would be non combat capable or only able to stop unarmed vessels.

Agreed as to all points. ***

That said, I could see NP acquiring combat and transport aircraft from other nations and I would imagine it has the capacity to maintain them. And it likely can manufacture its own light patrol boats and coastal patrol ships domestically.

It’s a nice thought, but NP can’t do everything and can’t man everything.  I suspect it hopes that the Norfolk and London governments will take most of the load in securing trans-lake trade and resorts to armed anti-piracy squads on commercial and fishing ships in lieu of warships.  As for aircraft, aside from old Pa. State Police patrol planes based at Franklin and Bradford at the end of their useful lives, I don’t think NP is much concerned with military aircraft.  That may change when the first Va. reconnaissance and fighter planes start mucking about in the S.W. Pa. and even N.W. Pa. airspace.
BTW, NP’s commercial airports were at Erie, Franklin and Bradford. (Meadville always was in a snit that its dinky field didn’t have service.)  Presumably Franklin and Bradford survived, with Franklin being the logical air center.***

Renaultlouis (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Follow-up to Renaultlouis

See below my responses****

Based on previous conversations that were had regarding strikes on Erie, I believe the general consensus was the nuke would have hit the eastern side of the city, towards the manufacturing plants, as the EMP and blast would ruin the rest of the city.

While I think that my theory works better, I’ll treat the east side hit as QSS and work from there.***
I think we can still discuss this, as no article directly addresses the location of the strike, provided Erie doesn’t survive in a meaningful way. If a strike is on the eastern or western side of the city or over the downtown, basically the whole city will be ruined.****

Allegheny, Clarion, Edinboro, and Titusville are the major universities in North Pennsylvania. Gannon was founded by surviving assets of Mercyhurst and Gannon that formed a small private college post Doomsday. Given that Berhend is public and the region around Erie likely have a substantially lower population than OTL, I don’t think it would be reformed.

My proposal was to move the remaining personnel and assets of Behrend to Edinboro, which dovetails well with your statements.
I agree with your assessment, that is the most likely outcome. Also, any salvaged material from Behrend would be relocated here.
However, you didn’t address several of the other higher education institutions in NP.  U. Pittsburgh at Bradford was bigger than Titusville (and unlike Titusville is still viable).  It should have survived, Bradford being 90 miles from everywhere. I think under QAA I can develop its role.  Also, Bradford/McKean County has been neglected in the NP stories and I want to correct that. 
Titusville is somewhat isolated (I drove through that area multiple times), but I am not as familiar with Bradford. And in OTL, Pitt Bradford has about 3x the amount of students as Pitt Titusville, so I concur your opinion.
Thiel and Westminster Colleges in Mercer County should have physically survived, but almost certainly would be unable to continue given losses of students and faculty. Penn State Shenango was close to Youngstown and would similarly be likely to close because of fallout and losses. I’m going to suggest that their assets were moved to Allegheny.*** 
We should probably assess how many universities is realistic for NP to have functioning given its population. While travel is absolutely more challenging in ATL, I think Penn State in State College would still attract international students, especially from NP, Reading, and Susquehanna. And it’s possible as road travel improves, Susquehanna could attract students due to the extremely low cost of college and cost of living in the nation.
I think right now, we have NP with four universities: Clarion, Edinboro, Gannon, and New Pittsburg in McKean.
Also, with NP controlling territory in former NY and OH, people in those regions may be interested in restarting Ohio State and NYU out of regional pride.

I would imagine the situation regarding the Jeep is likely along the lines of: the company is headquartered and design is done in North Pennsylvania, but a bulk of the manufacturing and assembly is done in Toledo.

Your suggestion is possible, but I think mine is more plausible.  Although there were and are a lot of machine shops and metal fabrication in the Franklin area, there was nobody with automobile design and engineering experience in the area.  The staff at Joy is fully occupied.  Snagging the HQ and design functions without that advantage would probably require that the NP investors provide most of the capital – an unlikely event.  In my proposal I’ve suggested that Toledo do the difficult things for Jeeps – power train and steering, and probably lights, and Franklin can do the chassis, body, radiator and interior.  Obviously this division of labor can be tweaked, but I think it works.***
My main concern with NP manufacturing parts domestically is shipping. Moving parts around is expensive, and lake routes are likely the only safe rout, since NP and Toledo still do not share a safe land connection yet (likely to change by 2030 I suspect). Cargo ships would be expensive (though I can imagine sail power vessels would be a common sight even on the Great Lakes) and the threat of piracy is real. I am not sure how much control nations have of the waters on the Great Lakes, given the spotty control over land that nations have around Lake Erie,

A major error that needs corrected is regarding the capital of North Pennsylvania. Various sources (including the nation’s page) indicate both Franklin and Warren as the capital city. I would suggest Warren, given its closer proximity to Edinboro, Meadville, and Oil City which are likely the major population centers.

I think your statement is counterfactual.  First, I didn’t see anything naming Warren as the capital, but there are plenty of references to Franklin.  Note that the NP main page says “Capital: Franklin,” shows the Venango County courthouse as the “Venango House,” the center of NP government (frankly, the next door Galena building is a much better HQ – maybe it houses departments), and there are repeated references to the governor and others being in Franklin.
Whoops, you are right, I made an error. Thanks.
The NP page does say that Warren is the capital of “Penn State,” the somewhat odd mashup of Crawford, Warren and McKean counties.  Warren is a somewhat logical capital of that mashup, being somewhat equidistant from Meadville and Bradford.  But as a capital of NP it’s terribly isolated, being 58 miles and 1 hour 20 minutes drive from Meadville in our times, 58 miles and 1 hour 20 from Franklin (50 from Oil City) and 59 miles from Edinboro.  Franklin is 27 miles from Meadville and 49 miles from Edinboro.  And with auto travel still impaired and the roads having reverted to gravel, distances are important. 
This may be where I got Warren from. I suspect that, given the state of State College’s page, that it was one of the early pages made. Likely NP’s Capital got moved at some point in the discussions.
QSS definitely applies here.  Accordingly, I’m not going to move the capital to Warren.*** 
Fair.

Also, I would suggest completely redoing the section regarding regions. I think the most likely scenario is that it would continue using the county system. Right now with the regions they are, each has a wildly different in area and population. One region (Pennstate) composed of OTL Crawford, McKean, and Warren counties is 2,921 square miles with 230,000 people, while the neighboring region (Forest) is only 430 square miles with a population of 3,000 people.

Agreed.  In my proposal I picked up on the existing statements on the NP page and NP history page that there was a constitutional revision (unspecified provisions) in 2011.  That’s a convenient, canon-consistent way to split up “PennState,” as shown in my proposal.  Crawford stands on its own after the 2011 constitutional revision and Warren and McKean are merged, pending growth.
That seems reasonable. I guess too, as long as representation in the General Assembly isn’t based off the regions, people shouldn’t grumble too much. If Senators were, I would be concerned we would end up with a situation like how OTL Wyoming and California get equal representation in the Senate while having wildly different populations.
Forest County OTL is too small, but if you’ve ever spent time in Tionesta and Marienville you know that consolidating it is risking death threats.  I punted by suggesting, as in real life, that Venango County provides some governmental services, while Warren County provides judicial support.***
I like this. I would suggest one of two things: either merge/split Forest County into the two other counties. Or Forest County remains a territory with government support from surrounding counties and the federal government.

I do think low population counties would be grouped together, but this absolutely needs to be reviewed.

Aside from Forest and the proposed “federal district of Eriesburg” [sic], most counties are large enough to be viable, and given transportation difficulties, there are good reasons not to consolidate.
Agreed. Also, I forgot to mention: the population needs to be corrected as they do not align between the existing- Population box on the top and the total sum of populations in the- Regions section. Population box indicates 320,255 people. Total of regions adds up to 570,530 people. My suspicion is that the total hasn’t been updated since before Ohio and NY were canonized as being part of NP, since the territory it controls only in modern PA adds up to 390,530 based on adding the regions section up.

Regarding port cities, unfortunately I don’t think Erie could be rebuilt as a port for a few decades still due to the direct impact on the city irradiating the area. Barring Erie, none of the other towns in Erie County, PA have natural ports and even to present day OTL only have rocky shores or very small moveable docks for pleasure craft. The two likely replacements I found are Dunkirk, New York or Ashtabula, Ohio.

With ground zero on the east side, you’re right about Erie.  On top of the radiation, an east side hit would clog the harbor mouth.  Ashtabula has large iron ore unloading docks and is by far the better port choice.  It has excellent rail connections to Meadville, Corry, Franklin and Warren. It’s also closer to population centers, although not by much.  Dunkirk hosts pleasure boating only OTL and only has rail connections to Buffalo and Erie, but not southward except by an unused, decrepit line via Jamestown on a somewhat roundabout route.***

They are both roughly the same distance, but Ashtabula has a more developed port area. However, I am not sure how it would be affected by the strikes (possibly multiple) on Cleveland.

Ashtabula is 58 miles from Cleveland downtown and a bit farther from its industrial area. (It’s amazing how everything in NP is 58 miles from somewhere else.) It’s well northeast of Cleveland and prevailing winds at Cleveland on September 19 average 9 mph, while winds from the south and west that could reach Ashtabula do not exceed 25% of the time.  Accordingly, there is a good case that Ashtabula missed almost all of the physical destruction caused by strikes on Cleveland, Erie and Youngstown and is only plagued by the post-Doomsday general radiation plaguing everywhere. ***   
And being that DD occurred almost 40 years ago now and Lake Erie has some pretty nasty rain and wind, it is plausible that Ashtabula, even if irritated by the strike on Cleveland, has been completely cleaned out by the rain.

North Pennsylvania is in the best position given its location, it can trade via Lake Erie with other industrialized nations that survived like Niagara Falls and Toledo. It additionally, can acquire parts to repair and rebuilt existing factories. Around Erie, there is plastic and metal fabrications as well as bearing production, rubber, steel, and minor oil production.

Regarding oil, in Bradford, PA (under NP control in McKean County), the American Refining Group has a small refinery capable of processing 11,000 barrels of oil a day, which was founded over 125 years ago (as of 2021 OTL). Obviously the pre-strike EMP would devastate the plant, but it is isolated from cities struck during the nuclear holocaust and would simply need new electrical or be rewired around the computers. With support from Toledo and Niagara Falls, it could likely be restored and operational (likely at reduced capacity, say 8,000 barrels a day?) for a few years by 2021 ATL, and be in the process of expanding.

There are a lot more small refineries in the hills of NP that almost certainly survived than you’ve mentioned, and I’ve listed them in my proposal, including American Refining (which in 1983 was called Kendall).  The limiting factor is probably crude oil supply; in 1983 the supply of Pennsylvania Grade crude (which is what’s produced in NP) was actually slightly lower than refining capacity, and Wolfs Head and Pennzoil were not producing at capacity.  Quaker State’s Emlenton and Farmers Valley refineries had reliable supply.*** 
One of my edits didn’t go through apparently. I found two larger refineries in the region: Bradford Refinery, operated by the American Refining Group; and Warren Refinery, operated by United Refining Group. Bradford had the capacity to handle 11,000 bb/day and Warren 65,000 bb/day. These were the only two large refineries I found, but I am sure other smaller ones exist or would have sprouted up.

Just to note, while the borders haven’t been nailed down, Virginia has been creeping into southwestern Pennsylvania for the last few years. So I don’t think anything in the Pittsburg metro will be in NP territory at the moment. Given Virginia’s territorial…aggression, this could set up a major conflict.

That is precisely what I think will be the driving force of NP history in the 2015-2020 period. NP needs the scrap steel, copper and other metals, as well as parts and technology, that it can scavenge from the Pittsburgh and Youngstown areas. The Kobuta synthetic rubber plant on the Ohio river 30 miles northwest of Pittsburgh is a prize.  The Kubota tractor plant 25 miles southeast of Pittsburgh near Irwin is another prize. NP and Va. are going to skirmish, with NP aiming not to occupy Allegheny and southern Beaver counties but hoping to negotiate access at a price to those resources.  Best result would be designating the Ohio and Allegheny rivers as the borders of the spheres of influence, but Va. may be too aggressive to allow that. ***
NP will likely need the support of other PA states, given that Virginia has an almost implausibly large military.

The general consensus has been that Pennsylvania is falling into four major power blocs:

  • Gettysburg (proxy state for Virginia, albeit less militant) and Virginia to a small extent (probably the last 10-15 years or so)
  • North Pennsylvania (proxy state for Canada)
  • Reading (along with Lehigh and Susquehanna)
  • State College (Independent)

Right now, Reading, Susquehanna, and State College have been squabbling over reunification for the last 5 years or so. Basically, Reading and State College disagree over the capital city and which government is the “legitimate” successor state, while Susquehanna wants to guarantees to maintain autonomy in its economy, internal affairs, and defense (Lehigh is a protectorate technically speaking of Reading and Susquehanna, so it really doesn’t have a voice). North Pennsylvania has been somewhat off doing its own thing aligning more towards Canada.

And Toledo and Niagara Falls.  Unfortunately, that should mean that it’s on the outs with Superior.  Or perhaps, seeing Va. as the imminent enemy, NP is trying hard to be friends with Canada while courting Superior.  It may end badly.
Toledo and Niagara Falls don’t have territory in Pennsylvania at the moment. NP seems to take a stance towards Superior of tolerance but not being allies. They didn’t directly fight Superior in the Saegunay War, only the raiders. They made it clear that, while they were pro-Canada, they were more concerned about stopping attacks on friendly territory. It may not be a great analogy, but I would view their relationship similar to OTL USA and Russia. We aren’t friends by any means, but collaborate if necessary and confront when needed.
NP’s interest in State College is pretty much limited to trying to get SC to provide military support for the coming clash with Va.  SC has hinted that reunification is a condition for that, but NP figures that once reunified, SC will take the easy road and let Va. do what it wants in S.W. Pa. in exchange for a non-aggression understanding as to the SC territories and Gettysburg. ***
I like this take. As for Susquehanna and Lehigh (the only two nations I can speak to: Susquehanna needs to be cautious as it procures military hardware from Virginia and it’s armed forces would be more or less useless against Virginian tanks. Lehigh is along the lines of Costa Rica where it doesn’t have a standing army, but rather a security force. I also don’t know if Reading would get involved given their position near Gettysburg, but they might.

Economically, North Pennsylvania is doing the best out of all the PA survivor states as it has access to the lake and easier access to markets in Canada as well as strong ties with Toledo, Niagara Falls, London (Ontario), and Superior. In part due to this, it hasn’t really been involved in reunification discussions and doesn’t have as much impetus to do so.

Agreed.  See my proposal.***

North Pennsylvania has been focusing on expansion into New York and Ohio, likely to get secured land routes to Toledo and Niagara Falls (and Canada). Expanding south towards Virginia doesn't give as much economic benefit. Even though Virginia is a military powerhouse and economic power in that area, that is relative to neighboring states that are significantly smaller or underdeveloped.

Well, unless Akron is undamaged, the Kobuta rubber works is essential, and transport from the Pittsburgh area to NP is easier than from Ohio (except for Youngstown).  Note that Virginia now has a port at Sandusky, between NP and Toledo, which jeopardizes a move into Ohio and trade with Toledo. NP may not be able to avoid Va. by moving west. ***
I believe Akron is gone. The port in Sandusky is still legally Toledo territory to my understanding. Also, Toledo controls the territory around it, which is substantial. I do agree that NP and Virginia are likely headed for a clash.

Electricity has been a bit of a sticking point for Pennsylvania as a lot of plants in the state at Doomsday were coal fired or were nuke plants that didn’t survive. In NP controlled territory, there are the following power plants:

New York

  • Coal
    • Dunkirk Generating Station (Chautauqua County): 505 MW (Decommissioned in 2016 OTL)

Pennsylvania

  • Coal
    • Bruce Mansfield Power Plant (Beaver County): 2,490 MW (Decommissioned in 2019 OTL)
    • Franklin Phillips Power Station (Beaver County): Unknown MW (Decommissioned in 1990’s OTL)
    • George F. Wheaton Power Station (Beaver County): 110 MW (Decommissioned in 2012 OTL)
  • Energy Storage
    • Seneca Pump Storage Energy Station (Warren County): 435 MW
  • Hydroelectric
    • Piney Hydroelectric (Clarion County): 27 MW
  • Natural Gas
    • New Castle (Franklin County): Unknown MW
  • Nuclear
    • Beaver Valley Nuclear Generating Station (Beaver County): 960 MW (just to note: part of the plant wasn’t online until 1987)

I think most likely the hydroelectric plant was restored. I don’t think the energy storage plant could be repaired, it is very parts intensive, but I could be wrong. While there are vast amounts of natural gas in Pennsylvania, in OTL, it has only been in the past decade an a half that fracking has become popular and used which helped reduce the price of extraction. Due to this, I don’t think in ATL, the natural gas would be an available resource. Additionally, there are no active coal mines in NWPA. In OTL, the majority of anthracite mining in Pennsylvania is in NEPA (ATL: Susquehanna and partially in Reading) and bituminous coal mining mainly occurs in SWPA (ATL: Virginia or unconfirmed/uncontrolled). In ATL, there could possibly be trade increasing to bring coal from Susquehanna to NP, but Susquehanna does not have the capacity to mine enough coal to feed all the power plants in NP.

Agreed, the Beaver Valley nuke is kaput.  The prize coal-fired electric plants in 1983 were the omer City  Generating Station, Indiana County (2.0 GW, enough to power 750,000 average homes and probably almost all of NP at full capacity), the Conemaugh Station, Indiana County (1.8 GW), Seward, Indiana County (585 MW) and Keystone, Armstrong County (1.9 GW).   Indiana County is closer to the SC border than NP, but Keystone is not far from the current southern border of NP.  Take Keystone along plus Kinzua, Piney Creek and whatever else NP can put together, and it’s OK.  Priority one is likely to be reopening Keystone before SC or Va. get to it.
Indiana County right now isn’t under anyone’s control, but I think it is logical for NP to expand into it.
There’s plenty of bituminous coal in NP, there were dozens of strip mines in Venango, Clarion, Jefferson and east Mercer counties in 1983 – my family sold land to them.  And almost unlimited amounts in Armstrong and Indiana counties, which is why those mega coal plants are there OTL.
I wasn’t as aware of those coal plants. Thanks for pointing this out.
I’m agnostic about the fate of Seneca Pumped Storage.  There was an 80 MW coal-fired plant in Warren, which shut down in 2002 OTL and which also should be available to NP.
On the page, I missed it, apparently it is active (Seneca is part of the Kinzua Dam system). I’m still a bit uncertain of this plausibility, but as contact with Canada continues to improve getting parts to restore the plant may be in the cards.
There were hardly any natural gas electric plants in NP in 1983, and in any case, although it produced some natural gas, it wasn’t able to meet all of its winter natural gas heating needs.  (Although presumably those were substantially reduced post-DD.) The flood of natgas didn’t arrive until the Marcellus Shale was fracked after 2000 OTL, and all the natgas electric plants in the NP area were constructed after that date.  Further, natgas plants need either turbines or high pressure steam boilers, which NP is not quite in a position to build itself. Even today OTL there’s only one natgas plant of any size in NP (Venango County, 295 MW)  with a second in Armstrong County just outside NP (688 MW).
Agreed. Long term, I think NG could become a factor, but not for the foreseeable future.
BTW, there was no natgas plant in New Castle, Lawrence County in 1983, and in any case, Franklin County is across the state near Gettysburg.***
Whoops. Error on my part regarding the Lawrence County. Not sure how I got that, haha. So I did more digging, and the plant was converted from coal to LNG in 2016. It had three boilers: Unit 3: 98.0 MW (1952), Unit 4: 114.0 MW (1958), Unit 5: 136.0 MW (1964)

Regarding the armed forces, right now NP has an active force of around 25,000 personnel and 15,000 reservists. The majority are likely in the Army. I was unable to find proof of any military aircraft in territory under NP control, the PAANG units were stationed in Pittsburgh, Willow Grove (near Philly), Middletown, and Fort Indiantown Gap. Obviously it would have access to private aircraft, but they would not be useful in combat. The Coast Guard in the region was a small contingent of water rescue and light patrol boats (RHIBs with machine guns) on Presque Isle, and were likely lost on Doomsday. Again, it could probably commandeer civilian vessels but these would be non combat capable or only able to stop unarmed vessels.

Agreed as to all points. ***

That said, I could see NP acquiring combat and transport aircraft from other nations and I would imagine it has the capacity to maintain them. And it likely can manufacture its own light patrol boats and coastal patrol ships domestically.

It’s a nice thought, but NP can’t do everything and can’t man everything.  I suspect it hopes that the Norfolk and London governments will take most of the load in securing trans-lake trade and resorts to armed anti-piracy squads on commercial and fishing ships in lieu of warships.  As for aircraft, aside from old Pa. State Police patrol planes based at Franklin and Bradford at the end of their useful lives, I don’t think NP is much concerned with military aircraft.  That may change when the first Va. reconnaissance and fighter planes start mucking about in the S.W. Pa. and even N.W. Pa. airspace.
Just something to consider: NP is in the best shape economically and has access to Canadian markets. While it wouldn’t have a large Air Force, the military would recognize that the Air Force could provide better logistics to isolated bases and air support to ground formations. It would have access to the best aircraft money could buy, through Canada it could get Embrair, Pilatus, or Saab aircraft. Especially after support in the Saegunay War, I would imagine Canada would be willing to support NP in getting a powerful enough force to challenge Superior and Virginia need be until Canada can secure territory on the Great Lakes.
BTW, NP’s commercial airports were at Erie, Franklin and Bradford. (Meadville always was in a snit that its dinky field didn’t have service.)  Presumably Franklin and Bradford survived, with Franklin being the logical air center.***
Agreed.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

North Pennsylvania Editing

I'm a newbie. I'd like to do some editing of North Pennsylvania with a view to start adding to canon and collaborating with nearby owners after I get some experience. I've been advised that no one is currently bupdating North Pa. Is there a problem with my going ahead after say July 20?

Renaultlouis (talk) 04:18, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Rebuilding/Reclaiming Destroyed Cities

It has been around 38 years since Doomsday, would radiation levels be dropping to a point where cities could begin being cleaned up and rebuilt? I know uranium and plutonium have long half lives, but weather would wash or blow the radioactive materials away over time. I think some cities would begin to be able to be cleaned up and rebuilt. Obviously this will depend on how large and resource heavy the surrounding nations are.

Alternatively, would some nations (Like the ANZC, USSR, USA, etc) turn the abandoned cities into nature preserves? Especially as newer cities replace the destroyed cities and rebuilding major infrastructure is both expensive and time consuming.

Thanks!

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Conflict in North America

Given some of the parallels being drawn between OTL Middle East and ATL North America, I could see another conflict arising between Virginia and its neighbors (Delmarva [I did see the proposed war was non-canonized], North Pennsylvania, and possibly Blue Ridge). Virginia being militaristic is unlikely to draw any more friend than it already has, and it’s aggressive tendencies will likely make many nations wary to deal with it.

Both Saguenay and Superior are still more than likely vehemently anti-Canadian, which could cause problems in the future. Especially with the city-states in southeastern Ontario like London, Norfolk, etc.

I am not sure what role the NAU could play in this, but I think the NAU, given its size and role, could likely get dragged into a conflict with the nation of Lincoln (especially given that aforementioned nation claims all of Nebraska).

I just think, given the Balkanization of North America, there haven’t been many conflicts, which seems unlikely.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:26, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Flag of the League of Nations

This is flag that Mal3ssio97 and several other are proposing to use.

Current flag used by the LoN.

So guys, you all know the infamous LoN flag of this universe and vexilologivally speaking is a bad example on how a flag should be created, especially for an international organization that need to encompass every survior government or country. That's why i propose to change the flag with this one;

As you can see, in the other flag there are both components of the LoN and UN flag, mainly the blue background and the logo of the League. In my opinion we should consider to do it. Mal3ssio97 01:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The LoN flag is a weak design, I agree. And we've recently made updates to some of the other early flags that needed some attention. I'd be in favor of a change. What would that new design look like with the same dark blue of the original? False Dmitri (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

FD's darker version

This is what I meant. It's here only for comparison, I'm not saying that I prefer one or the other. False Dmitri (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

What about replacing the inner star with the cost of arms? I do agree a new flag needs to be created.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

proposed LoN flag by Trainor

proposed WCRB flag

Hi all I thought id throw my ideas up here, firstly keeping in flavour with the OTL LoN flag and also borrowing from the LON in the timeline, i proposed using the pentagomn star flipped upside down to pay homage to the souther focussed organisation. Similarly i have updated the WCRB flag to reflect the LoN proposal Trainor90 (talk) 04:55, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Flipping the star looks pretty great in my opinion. False Dmitri (talk) 07:06, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

i like it, but i still prefer it with the star not upside down, so that point towards north. Mal3ssio97

I have to say, I am very much in favour of the 7-pointed star within the heptagon. It is probably for the best to move away from the 5-pointed star of the old pre-WWII LoN, and the downward direction preserves the meaning of new world powers being in the southern hemisphere. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 03:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The inverted seven-pointed star is an excellent adaptation of the original flag. It has a basis in the original historical LoN but goes in a different direction. It represents moving on from the mistakes of the past; turning the world order "on its head"; unity among the seven continents. And using the red for the WCRB is also a wonderful way to use yet improve on XiReney's old designs. I'm all for this change. False Dmitri (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I think the seven pointed flag would suffer from a similar effect we were concerned about with the NAU flag about adding mountains. I think using the current UN seal (maybe repositioning to a South Pole centric view of the globe vs the existing North Pole centric view of the globe) on a field that matches the original LoN colors would be a better arrangement, tying the UN to the League and indicating the global nature of the organization but centered on the Southern Hemisphere.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1Page 2Page 3

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27


North Pennsylvania

I'm uploading a proposed rewrite of NP to the Category:Proposals page.

Renaultlouis (talk) 05:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)Renaultlouis

I'm a newbie. I'd like to do some editing of North Pennsylvania with a view to start adding to canon and collaborating with nearby owners after I get some experience. I've been advised that no one is currently bupdating North Pa. Is there a problem with my going ahead after say July 20? Renaultlouis (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I am willing to provide Renaultlouis support in this, I have had extensive communication with User talk:Arstarpool and User talk:Godfrey Raphael regarding North Penn, State College, Reading, and Susquehanna. Additionally, I grew up in NEPA and lived near Erie for four years. Daeseunglim (talk) 15:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Ren posted the full text of his proposal here. In the interest of keeping this page a reasonable length, I have copied this text to Talk:North Pennsylvania (1983: Doomsday)#Proposal for North Pennsylvania Jul. 7 2021. False Dmitri (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Rajneeshistan

Proposal for a new small-state, located in the PNW of the former United States. Area was unoccupied by any other Doomsday nation (according to my search of the map and existing successor nations in North America), which was the catalyst of creating the nation (a fill-in-the-blank thing basically).

I'm not super attached to Rajneeshistan so any edits, changes, adjustments, or just nixing the idea are all fine by me, I have no great dedication to the project. Dieua-Artio (talk) 23:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a really clever idea and is something that works in a post-apocalypse setting. It seems too big, however, in both area and population. Simply because it seems really really difficult to maintain cult discipline among a population of 200,000 people like that. Maybe I'm wrong, though; I'm definitely willing to hear the justification for it. And area too, filling in all the unclaimed land of Washington just strikes me as too much for a state like this. But again, maybe I'm missing an important rationale for it. False Dmitri (talk) 23:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there that many survivors left in Washington? I also agree with False Dimitri, I don’t think a cult would be able to have that many members and stay intact. Additionally, it would have shared borders with what became Lincoln immediately after Doomsday, the region which was run by white supremacists, so there would absolutely be major conflict there. Eastern Washington outside of Spokane is very conservative in OTL and I don’t even think a large nation of this nature could gain a foothold like this let alone survive.

The economy would not be that successful, it would be very small and focused on survival such as blacksmithing, farming, security, etc. not yoga. If it did focus on aspects like spirituality and yoga, you can almost guarantee there would be massive upheaval as people starved. They say we are only 3 meals away from anarchy.

Additionally, if it was a cult, I cannot see the United States, Victoria, or Astoria (even though it is a dictatorship) permitting this nation to survive long term, and would likely seek to either overthrow the government or outright invade.

I would recommend scaling this down to a single county at most, and make it very rural to avoid catching the eye of other countries.

The OTL 1989 population of the region encompasses by your proposed nation (Yakima, Klickitat, and Western Benton counties) is in the neighborhood of 220,000 people. If we assume 25% losses due to fighting and starvation and another 15% loss due to diseases, we get to around 140,000 people.

The area voted heavily conservative (in the 1980 Presidential Election, Yakima voted 55.2% Republican, Klickitat voted 49.5% Republican, and Benton voted 64.7% Republican) so there would likely be an exodus of conservatives into Idaho, Oregon, or Lincoln if this nation gained traction, as well as any non-religious or liberal individuals as the nation imposed religion on people. Assume another 40% loss due to exodus, which I think is realistic. We are left with 84,000 people approximately in 1983 and assuming a 5% population growth per decade leaves us with 102,103 people today.

According to Wikipedia, at it’s height Rajneeshpuram had 7,000 people and it was a self sufficient community in north-central Oregon. Having to relocate and fight off bandits and raiders would take a toll on that population, even 7,000 people isn’t enough to take on and control 84,000 people.

Given the US controls Wasco County, Oregon (where Rajneeshpuram started), I would suggest the following:

  • The community remains neutral between 1983 and the Oregon Civil War and only involves itself to drive out raiders and state investigators. State officials investigate the community as a means to distract against their own bad behavior and point the finger at Rajneeshpuram.
  • In the civil war, the government that would become Astoria tries to drive the people out, but are unsuccessful due to other important military operations and troops defecting to Oregon.
  • When Oregon stabilized and splits between Oregon and Astoria, Oregon state authorities begin to investigate Rajneeshpuram due to complaints by citizens of Wasco County, and this forces the believers to flee into Washington State in 2007.
  • The community finds the Yakama Indian Reservation somewhat intact but largely depopulated due to fighting with Spokane through the 1980’s and 1990’s with only a few thousand survivors left.
  • It forms an independent nation with the new capital being Toppenish, renamed Rajneeshpuram, the nation has a population of around 30,000 people circa 2010, 31,500 circa 2020.
  • From survivors, the leadership of Rajneeshpuram find out about the United States and Victoria.
  • The nation fortifies its borders and takes steps for self sufficiency as it knows that the United States or Victoria are likely to attack it.
  • Present day, it is still an independent nation, but US interests are beginning to look towards arresting the nation’s leadership due to alleged crimes against humanity and dictatorial practices. Additionally, it is a destabilizing force on the border of the US state of Cascadia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Any alterations, to a major or minor degree, are all fine by me. Is just a mild side thought-project. Another immediate thought after the article was made is - what of the Yakima Tribe? They'd likely have issue with the religious-state being encroaching into their tribal lands. I can alterate it with the above suggestions, or if someone else wants to take it on that is great too. Dieua-Artio (talk)

new chicago

proposal for new a nation in and around the area of what was chicago. groups of survivors in various communities in the area began forming in mid to late 1984 and a number of city states such as the state of rockford and greater naperville along with the original city state of new chicago form in mid 1985. sentiment from a number of radicals calling for one unified state would be on the rise by december of 1985 but would be met by heavy resistance at first. by spring of 1986 the unification movement would have one sole figure head in Damien White. Damien was just 21 years old when doomsday hit in 1983, he grew up in southern chicago. Damien was the son of a black mother and white father, which was illegal at the time of his birth, as this was the case his parents put him up for adoption shortly after he was born and he was eventually adopted into a black family. Damien learned that he was adopted and biracial by the time he was twelve. Damiens biracial background made him a popular choice for pro unity leadership. Damien was particualrly renowned for how firey and radical he was, not just in his calling for the chicago region to unity but also for his emphasis on being ahead of the game in rebuilding post doomsday and wanting to make the area a leader and force in the rebulding of america. by december of 1986 talks began for what would officialy become the peoples republic of new chicago on march 11th 1987 with damien white as president.

i am new as a contributer but i have followed 1983 for some time. i finally decided to come out with a story of my own and am curious to hear thoughts on this, i know it is just a beginning and needs a lot of work but i thought this would be a good start

(Posted by $tormerator00 (talk)

Chicago and it’s metropolitan area were struck by multiple air and ground burst nuclear warheads. Radiation levels in and around the city are high enough that Kentucky and Superior are just beginning to investigate the area in the last 5 years or so. I don’t think any survivor state is realistic within dozens of miles of the former city.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Second Anglo-Xhosa War

Murph adopted New Britain several months ago and wrote the section History of New Britain (1983: Doomsday)#Conflict with KwaXhosa. The changes are large enough that I feel they ought to be discussed here, so I've labelled the section as a proposal for now. False Dmitri (talk) 16:55, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Confederation of Pennsylvanian States

Proposal for a supranational economic and military alliance between Lehigh, Reading, and Susquehanna. I think given the proximity of the nations and the fact that the raiders in the region have largely been expelled or arrested, it is reasonable that they would form some sort of economic union, especially given their relative isolation, this would help the nations try to keep their economies functioning and give them more clout in the United Communities. There is the possibility for State College, North Pennsylvania, and Gettysburg joining, but at the moment, based on how they are written, I don't think any of these nations would be interested.

It would function very similar to OTL European Union, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Daeseunglim (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

By 2017 I would definitely expect most people in the area to be ready for some consolidation and larger units. This would be a rather modest effort compared to the dreams of pro-Union Pennsylvanians, and even anti-Unionites would see it as a positive step, I think. False Dmitri (talk) 20:13, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I view it as a middle ground between people who want the state to unify and people who don’t want any unification whatsoever. Also, even though the TL hasn’t had major updates since 2011, I think Virginia would begin to occupy territory around the southwestern part of the state, and given Virginia’s historical tendency to act aggressively towards its neighbors, I think it could set up a major conflict between Virginia and Pennsylvanian survivor states.

When LG and I were discussing this, he said that North Pennsylvania and State College wouldn’t be interested, but I disagree.

State College would dominate the organization based on size and population, and I think they would likely accept this as the next best thing to annexing North Penn, Reading, and Susquehanna. North Pennsylvania, though it is gravitating towards Canada (I think all the survivor states in PA barring Gettysburg are leaning pro-Canada), I think would recognize that Virginia is a threat and a unified Pennsylvanian front would fare better against Virginia in a war compared to each state on its own (in a scenario where Virginia did invade, I don’t think Reading or Susquehanna could successfully hold off Virginia.

While State College claims to be the successor of Pennsylvania, I think practical people in its government would recognize that it cannot control the whole state and by 2021 ATL, it would recognize the independence of the other survivor states however it would probably want to be recognized as the successor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I think North Pennsylvania would agree, I am not sure about Reading, and both Lehigh and Susquehanna would follow Reading’s lead.

The organization would probably be spurred by Virginian expansionism, Canada’s inability to really provide meaningful support barring materials to all the Pennsylvania survivor states, and the idea that a unified front would be more practical.

Additionally, I think Canada and Delmarva would probably encourage this to happen. I know Canada is an ADC member and there was talks of adding Delmarva (I am not sure if this has happened yet).

While I don’t think joining the ADC is likely for the foreseeable future (especially given the lack of a coast and the fact that all the nations combined likely only have 100,0000 soldiers at most), I think that Canada, Delmarva, and the ADC as a whole would recognize that a united Pennsylvania would be a regional power and would be able to help counter Superiorian and Virginian influence in the region.

I think the likely member states are:

  • Lehigh
  • North Pennsylvania
  • Reading
  • State College
  • Susquehanna

I also think it is possible that the Republic of New York would be an observer. However, I do not believe that Gettysburg would join, and is more likely to join the Dixie Alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Eastern Pennsylvania Baseball League

Proposal for a baseball league between Lehigh, Reading, and Susquehanna. Due to proximity, if an economic union does occur, I think this is plausible that it would be an extension from this.

Daeseunglim (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The baseball league could precede the political union, too. Forming a league is a lot easier than forming a federal government! False Dmitri (talk) 20:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I spoken with some germans yesterday and some even members of this wiki, they said that Germans as well us Italians, French and other nations that are a republic for more then 50 years have said to me that Germans don't miss the monarchy and only neo nazi or kaiserboo have this fetish towards the monarchy, so yeah i agree with Sigma that if the original writers wanted Prussia so much then a "Prussian State" or a "Prussian Republic" would had work so much better in my opinion, but here we are.

Thou i still think that if you want a monarchy then it has to be democratic as possible, on the level of the United Kingdom, no way semi authoritarian monarchies are gonna work in 21th century Europe were all of the monarchies are constitutional and parliamentaries one. Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "fetish" is rather insulting, fyi.

Much as I think the poll is bogus (as noted why, plus I suspect, and exit polling tends to support this in other fields, that "social pressure" and other factors mean the number is actually higher, especially if you use specifics) you quoted it so we'll use it. A third of Germans are in favor, according to it. At most, and that is in the last election, your "neo-nazis" (who don't support a crown, fyi), just a bit over 10% of the vote. That's the most they've gotten in decades, since long before DD. Now, I'm aware that a certain portion of the "tent" conservative parties are going to agree with them on some level, but not a majority or even a plurality of their members will be. So your statement isn't true.

That current upswing is more about the EU than anything, as a note. You see a similar increase on the more communist side of things.

You see about the same patterns in place in the other western republics. There is a reason why, in France for example, they legally care about who the claimants are, and even today, two of the three general political patterns there are "Bonapartism" and "Bourbonism," even if the overall monarchial ties are shorted out right now. As an example, Du Gualle is someone from the more Bonaparte school, with regards to policies and attitudes.

But that is today - we're talking about 1983-1990. Different picture. You know your older relatives, the ones that want a return to the "good old days"? Ignoring a lot of the more bigoted parts (not saying there is with yours, but you get the idea) it is about the world as they knew it when they were young, and/or the stories they were told growing up. A lot of the politicians, and the like, of the era are those who were born in the WWII era, or just before. Meaning that their parents were that generation for WWI. So that "drawback" to the past here would have been for those glory days, in their minds. Ahh, Nostalgia.

Now, republicanism in Germany has never been a strong thing by itself. Kind of a this is what works thing, if that makes sense. There's a reason why there was at least two (Hanover and Bavaria) moves for crowns/independence after WWII, which failed largely due to US pressures. And the Easterners have been under dictators since the 1930s by this point - they'll want a strong leadership of some sort, which the westerners won't go for on near the same level. About the only in between there is a crown, so... Add to that the "foreign" garrisons of West Berlin.... Presto! If nothing else, call it the king an independent arbiter.

Prussia is mostly a constitutional state, but, as noted, you've got to have a stronger monarchy than others to satisfy things, especially given the trying times of DD.

Western Monarchies, btw, have a lot more power than you think. It's just that by practice and culture, they don't do it.

Lordganon (talk) 14:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Eh, it's more than fair to call the giant list of restored monarchies in this TL a "fetish". I'm guilty of it too and regret doing it for Hawaii (quite possibly the earliest example of the trope in this timeline). Any individual case might be justified, but it's happened in well over a dozen countries. I suspect this has much to do with the typical alternate history enthusiast's interest in dynasties and genealogy, very little to do with a real assessment of what people in the different communities would look for if society ever collapsed. And Prussia's one of the sillier ones, in my opinion. Like Alex says, it's a pretty obvious case of Kaiserreich fanboyism with a story written around it.
Now it happens that said story has developed into something that's not that bad. It's been through an extensive Review process and fitted pretty well into the overall setting, with enough there to justify some of the more outlandish turns of events. I wouldn't support a total rewrite of the canon unless there was a very strong desire to do it by everyone involved. (And honestly I'd be willing to do the same for Hawaii, I'm sort of annoyed to be part of the problem like that.) False Dmitri (talk) 02:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

<Freely admits to being guilty of that "trope" by virtue of being a monarchist>

Not a "fetish." that's insulting. There's a lot of better terms for the idea you mean.

Funny enough, with the loss of the capital/Oahu and the larger bases, the "haole" population of Hawaii would have taken as massive hit. Add that the "locals" are far more inclined to be in favor of independence... bet that one makes sense more than almost anywhere else globally, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's what I had thought too, but some reading since then shows that Maui and the Big Island's ethnic demographics aren't all that different from the state as a whole. But again my point is that any one restoration might be understandable. It becomes almost humorously absurd when the same thing happens absolutely everywhere. I count twelve thirteen states in Europe alone that are governed by royals today that were not in 1982. Add four or five more in Central Asia. Individually any might have a reason. In the aggregate it's ridiculous. Like everyone looked out the window and said, "On my! Nuclear war! We'd better call up the nearest heir to a deposed dynasty." I am strongly in favor of reducing this crowd of restaurados and I'm more than willing to start with the page that I created. Prussia too - if there's a strong community will to do it, and a credible and well-written alternative. False Dmitri (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
<waggles hands> Depends on how you count the "ethnicity" and who is doing the counting - varies from a hundred thousand "pure" natives, to more than 500k that can claim descent (and often do) in the islands alone. One of those things, you know? As for the idea... restorations, maybe, but we don't see enough states that have people declare themselves such and control areas, so it probably somewhat evens out. Lordganon (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"DD, tell more of your plans."

Apologies for not seeing all this until April, real life stuff and procrastination got in the way. What I want to add to the Prussia page is some extra history and nuance to waht I see as a rather contrived even:, mostly on how the monarchy came to be, Prussia's history post-2011, some additions to its culture, economy, and political structure.

I wrote a pretty good summmation of what I want on the AH Wikia Discord, so I'll just repost it here.

Obligatory wall of text warning. Also, some stuff is from my personal headcanon, so disregard anything about surviving cities and the like. About 90% of it is what I actually want.

The former DDR is dominated by Prussia, which got off lucky thanks to the Soviet first strike crippling much of NATO's short-range ability to respond, sparing a handful of cities in the north (most major Berzik capitals north of the Elbe river, the south got screwed over thanks to population density and its industrial areas). Honecker and much of the higher-level officials were found dead from suicide, imprisoned or were outright lynched in some cases. As for the NATO and WP forces stationed in the city, cooler heads prevailed as they set about stabilising Berlin, bringing both sides of the capital and some of the surrounding cities (Postdam, Bernau) into a loose military government. Sounds contrived, I know, but I had to justify why the DDR and Soviet troops just didn't massacre their NATO counterparts.

Much of the northern DDR is reclaimed in the ensuing months and years, clearing out much of the de-facto Stasi and Volksarmee warlords that controlled the surviving northern towns and cities. After almost a decade (1991-92-ish), the Interim Administration for a United Germany is replaced with a revived Prussian state (mostly after they find out that much of the old East and West is unsalvageable for the time being), led by a surviving Hohenzollern (it can be Christian-Sigismund, but I like to think that Louis Ferdinand was in Berlin at the time of DD). Much of the already established lore for Prussia (war with Poland, the Treaty of Wolfsburg) takes place, but I felt like the backstory needed some polishing and nuance.

Modern Prussia is stuck somewhere between a semi-absolute monarchy (effectively a replacement for the General Secretary - though the King rarely exercises his power), a military dictatorship (the military largely stays out of politics as well) and a mildly corrupt - if functioning - democracy (the 'Socialist Royalists' are a pretty weird idea, if I'm honest. If anything, a market-friendly CDU-type would be in charge, thanks to the DDR's high degree of social conservatism and Prussia's need to distance itself from any form of socialism). Think Thailand, mixed with the Weimar Republic and the German Empire under Frederich III.

The Prussians idolize many of the anti-fascist and communist resistance members (the White Rose movement, July 20 Plotters, the Freikorps and the hundreds of dissidents who were targeted by the Stasi by the DDR) from German history, while also standing in firm opposition to the 'Americanised' democracy of the old West, claiming to be the heirs to the Weimar Republic, the Frankfurt Parliament and the Kaiserreich. Any fascist/natsoc and communist parties are banned, while those that associate with the movements are put under a great amount of social pressure and surveillance (ironic, I know, but the Prussians had to work with what they had...).

Regular street battles between the police, neo-Nazis, a revived Antifaschistische Aktion/Red Army Faction/Kampfgruppen LARPers are a regular feature in Berlin. Prussia is one of Europe's major industrial powers, having recovered what they could from the nuked cities (Halle Neustadt has taken over much of the old nuked, neighbouring city) built much of their heavy industry from scratch and an unlikely source of consumer electronics, thanks to the survival of factories in Strassfurt, Berlin and Teltow. Its relations with the southern states of Saxony and Weimar are cordial, thanks to the surviving universities in the latter and surviving industry (even if Karl Marx Stadt is still outwardly socialist - think of Saxony as the Belarus to Prussia's Russia) in the former.

I'm running with the theory that most regimes tend to use the state systems that came before them. Like how Russia merely replaced the Tsar with an all powerful General-Secretary, only to be replaced with an oligarch in turn. So Prussia would be a flawed democracy at best. Years of martial law and military rule would only make restoring a liberal democracy harder. Because the public remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis and East German regime, the government doesn't overextend itself that often.

West Berlin gets this reputation of being a progressive mecca and a thorn in the side of the mostly-conservative establishment. Conscription's still on the books, though there is an option for civil service. Said civil service no longer comes with the government-backed discrimination that it did in the East, but the stigma might still be there on a social level.

TL;DR the basic theme I want to have for the Prussia page is "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I also threw together a strike map some months back, which may help with figuring out what cities survive in the DDR and what doesn't. I used both the canon Prussia article with whatever other Cold War-era resources I could find.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Considering how long it takes me to research and reply to things and be relatively calm about it, can't judge you.

DD, that is more or less the idea of a review - adding to an article to make it better/more plausible, or removing parts that aren't, changing as little as possible. Your goal is sound.

I would say that the GDR leadership mostly ends up dead in riots, by Soviet forces, etc. Not so much suicide or imprisoned. Maybe have some stuck in their bunkers for a few months, might be funny.

Neubrandenburg would likely be ok, I think, though it looks like we should add Schwerin and Cottbus to the strikes. Doesn't really change much.

Louis Ferdinand was probably in Bremen at DD, where his grandson was attending school.

Truthfully, we can't place any of the family for sure in Berlin, though it is likely that one was.

Can't see the two sides getting together, at least right away. WB is designed, somewhat, by 1983 to last in a siege - and they are walled in, so relatively secure with little reason to come out. They'll get together eventually, mind.

About right on the government, I think, though the Royal Socialist party is more possible than you think. Same logic as the socialist parties in Scandinavia. See no reason for them to want anything to do with the old Weimar Republic, mind.

No way there is battles in the street. Anyone trying that would get shut down right away by soldiers.

About right on the liberal democracy and West Berlin.

Have a look at the map on the Germany article for strikes, etc.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Just about anywhere that a base is hit, the city it is beside/in/against is gone. I would say combine the two strike lists, and remove the surviving city part.

Stendal would explain some things - that area is where we really lack anything organized near the border, compared to other parts. A near-intact division would explain that well.

Poznan isn't the only major city to survive in Poland.

I would adjust the part about Christian-Sigismund changed to having him survive in West Berlin, and rest assumed dead in the West. There's no record of them being imprisoned anywhere.

Radio transmissions should be made "directed" as well, at least in the early years.

Probably should adjust a lot of the first contact things, too.

Lordganon (talk) 11:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

A lot of East German military bases aren't like American ones, with them being so dangerously close to cities. I 'did the math' for all these bases and cities in nukemap, assuming that the former were hit one or two low-yield nukes (anything below between a 100-200 kt, as is seemingly standard for both NATO/WP military bases). The city of Cottbus is arguably the safest bet, as the airbase of the same name lies some distance (approx. 25 km - roughly the same distance between Berlin and Strausberg) away from the city proper. The other cities would either be outright destroyed (Strausberg) or would suffer minor-to-substantial (but not enough to wipe out the city) damage from shockwaves and fires (Zossen).

If it weren't for Wunsdorf (erroneously labelled as Zossen, which is just the nearby town) getting nuked, I planned to have it become some sort of 'Little Moscow', a hub for Prussia's substantial Russian-speaking community outside of Stendal or Berlin.

I'm yet to touch the history section, as that'll require some time to plan. I'll integrate the surviving cities/bases things into whatever section might deserve a mention of them (i.e. Halle-Neustad for its industry and clean-up of the old city, Stendal being a major army base, Wolgast for its shipyards).

First contact will be cleaned out, and will probably be done some years before the original article. Contact with North Germany and the other ex-DDR statelets (Thuringia, Saxony) will probably happen in the late 1980s, especially for the latter two.

Also, while I'm here, I checked the talk page for Weimar/Thuringia and the author said that he intended to have Weimar and Berlin unify under the Prussian banner at some point in the 'near future'. Can I get the go-ahead on that? Thuringia has major universities, some leftover tech hubs (much of the DDR's non-heavy industry - namely chemicals, electronics, vehicle production - were very much 'in the sticks' and wouldn't get hit at all. Nuking a village that just so happens to contain a TV factory is a bit of a waste). Saxony probably wouldn't want to unify due to it being effectively a hold-out of the old DDR.

Once I've sorted out RL stuff, I'll get to working on the rest of the page ASAP.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Salento LoN Protectorate

Hi guys, since i intend to review the article of Sicily, me and othe others had agree that the Lecce mandate was too much bias towards the Italians, so i rewrite it in my sandbox. Basically here after the initial 5 - 6 years of Greek administration both the LoN and the ADC agreed that the mandate should be over by now and in the same year Greece is forced to create a joint administration with Sicily, while at the same time removing Greek troops, LoN peacekeepers would take their place. I expanded the history of the mandate, his administration, defence and others.

Salento

Lecce Mal3ssio97 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Scotland

No idea where to begin. The whole premise is pretty ridiculous. No sense of history or the political conditions were taken into account. Neither was the fact that a blast at the Leith Docks (which likely would hit off the coast and not on top of it) would also at a maximum lead to 100,000 casualties and 10,000 deaths and not lead to any more damage to the central govt buildings than broken windows and potential third degree burns for those unfortunate enough to be outside at the point (IF it hits Leith itself). It also fails to take into account the lack of a nuke to Glencorse Barracks or the fact that a 15kt bomb would struggle to destroy the various dockyards hit, let alone cause less than light damage to the surrounding towns. The only plausible thing here would be that the airbases would all be destroyed... but not all the aircraft.

Add to the fact that the HMS Dalriada, the naval reserve in Glasgow, and HMS Scotia both survive and Scotland descending into... whatever it is that has been written is frankly implausible.

The lack of any mention of the cities of Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee or Perth compounds this problem, with Aberdeen very easily able to take the lead in matters to the north, and an easy source of fuel for the struggling nation in the early days post-DD. Thankfully, after speaking with Ben, I am committed to preserving as much of the shape of Britain - so the Celtic Alliance will still exist, but frankly this would be the start of a major overhaul of the British Isles to add some realism to everything. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that part of the solution, if Scotland seems to have fared too badly given the list of strikes, is to simply add more strikes. 15kt won't do the job? Make it bigger. Add a few more cities, if they're justifiable. That list of targets is always being expanded as we add more fiery deaths to our dystopian hellscape.

That said, I can definitely get behind making changes to correct the often-haphazard way that the Britain content was put together. You might want to explore the contributions of Todetode. They had ideas similar to yours. Last year they submitted a huge amount of updated content, but when people didn't read it immediately they got angry, withdrew their proposals, and essentially vandalized all of their own work. But some of their ideas are still lying around, potentially useful.

You also ought to communicate these ideas with SigmaHero045, who is planning to write a lot of recent history for Britain, and whose plans would definitely be affected by any change to the lore.

Good luck with this. I probably won't be able to help much, it's really outside my areas of expertise (as Todetode learned to their frustration). False Dmitri (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thing is the current list of strikes matches up pretty well with the expected nuclear strikes that were both anticipated by Britain and were planned for by the Soviets. The Soviets had no plans to nuke any of the cities above the central belt of Scotland, so the current list of strikes does make sense. Adding more strikes would have the same effect of having no strikes in the sense that it would make it harder for the region to become part of the Celtic Alliance. With decent changes, and changing the reasoning behind the origins of the Celtic Alliance, we can still have some sort of alignment with what has currently been written. But again, Ireland does need to be looked at as Northern Ireland was dealt with pretty badly and that region would be a definite hotspot for chaos and ugliness. However, if spun right, it could be the impetus for closer relations between Ireland and Scotland and lead to the creation of the Celtic Alliance. And not to fear, adding chaos in Ireland will add with the whole dystopian hellscape vibe.

I'll have a look at Todetode's ideas, and have already messaged SigmaHero, hopefully he gets in touch with me and shares his thoughts and ideas on the situation. Thank you for the good wishes, there is going to be a lot of ground to cover. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at TheSmartPenguin23 (edits from 2019 in the history) for ideas too.

I have to say, though - Aberdeen and Dundee aren't listed on the CA page as cities, and I think they'd be targets. The oil industry at Aberdeen was up and running by DD, and the shipbuilders in Dundee aren't insignificant - they made Carrier sized ships at one point, and frigates more recently (compared to 1983), and could be used to repair a navy comparatively easily if left alone.

As Ben said, the bombs aren't that strong - make them bigger and you solve most of the problem - adjust Glasgow/Edinburgh as needed. For that matter, the UK is probably out of range of tactical warheads anyway, so it would be needed anyways.

With most of the NI leadership on both sides and their more radical supporters wiped out (and, given fallout from Belfast and the wind patterns, probably a lot more Protestant dead) I suspect you'd have less trouble there than you think there would be.

More things to remark on, but that can wait until things are fleshed out more, though I will say - the capital of Northumbria is at Alnwick because that is where the county seat of Northumberland is, where its Dukes live, and where they'd base themselves out of.

Lordganon (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Some good points raised there LG. Also good to see you back. So I did actually think about Aberdeen and Dundee not being targeted and looked up information on that front. Both Soviet and British planning avoided the cities being nuked, with Soviet planning actually highlighting the dock capability you mentioned as this would be used for a potential landing site for Soviet troops (a depressing thought, personally). As the nukes were launched most likely at targets pre-planned it would make sense for the cities of the north to avoid nuclear bombs. Along with this, I think the bombs that hit Edinburgh and Glasgow would be realistic, and what instead is probably a better move is that the 200kt nuke on Glasgow hits more to the west where major RN installations are located which would make sense as they would knock out naval capability.
I also understand that these docks in Aberdeen could be used for repairs, but realistically Scotland would not much be able to pull off anything of the sort as their main issue just becomes survival and the like. Belfast also only has the one nuke hitting it, so will need to look into the positioning of the military bases which would likely be priority number one. Derry was also a major hub for the British while the troubles were going on and thus they would likely remain alive. Probably add to the matter that Belfast would probably still have survivors and you have a decent recipe for utter chaos. Food shortages and problems will likely only add to flare up tensions and would likely radicalise a good chunk of the population and give us further chaos and a chance for organisations such as the UVF to capitalise upon.
Ah, now Alnwick makes sense, I was left pretty confused by it tbh. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, Southern Scotland has been through hell, but 23,000 is way to low because:

  1. None of the wars ended it it being geocoded.
  2. Unscathed Borders Region had a population of about 95,000 (55,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Lothian would OTL number 200,000ish (125,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). Unscathed Dumfries and Galloway had a population of about 105,000 (66,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Central Region would OTL number about 100,000 (65,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?).
  3. Borders Region has good farmland in it's valleys.
  4. Lothian got more lightly hit than it should have been.
  5. Central Region (Less Falkirk) and Dumfries & Galloway were lightly populated places to. A hit on the port of Grangemouth (plus any military bases, if any) would be all that would be hit. There would be radiation blowing in from elsewhere.

Politics would run as follows:

  1. Conservative zones- Dumfries and Galloway, Borders Region, Mid Lothian, East Lothian, Edinburgh and Steiring.
  2. Labour zones- West Lothian, Edinburgh, Clackmannan and Falkirik
  3. Liberal\SDP zones- Edinburgh and all of Borders Region
  4. SNP zones- West Lothian, Galloway and Steiring
  5. Indpendent\residents associations- All of Dumfries and Galloway, Stirling, East Lothian and all of Borders Region

~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are exactly talking about but I'll try to answer anyway. First of all I am not quite sure what or why you are referencing the numbers for but long story short Soviet planning indicated Scotland as a potential target for invasion and, after talking to Kuupik on the matter, the current hits of canon on most military bases along with the two city nukes make sense in that regard as it would make any potential future invasion all that much easier, allowing them to use Scotland as a base to control the UK - as well as having non-irradiated lands to base this invasion/subjugation from.
If those numbers reference current canon, then all I can say is all that is subject to change.
As for politics, there will likely be no comparison with OTL apart from broad strokes. The SNP are also likely finished as a party - their cause doesn't matter anymore. There will also be a very large number of refugees from the south which will further complicate the political makeup of the nation. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem with the concept of the targets being limited in Scotland is that it has its basis in the early 1970s report for the the British government that thought only 106 targets were in the UK... which mostly assumed only bomber hits, and ignored subs and the possibility of more tactical weapons. Other problems include such things as targeting Cambridge and not Oxford, hitting small observation posts with multi megaton strikes, using tiny hits on some cities and huge ones on others (out of proportion both ways). Scotland in particular is a example of problems cited by its critics, specifically mentioning Aberdeen being left alone as a problem, for example.

As for Scotland as an invasion site... while the Soviets may have planned something like that - not that I can find a real plan of it, but w/e - these are also the same planners that thought they could nuke the hell out of Germany and still advance safely through it, in addition to that having no responses from NATO and an invasion of France not getting nuked.... taking both within less than a month. They weren't exactly all that brilliant or logical about it, so nuking the heck out of an invasion site wouldn't phase them.

More later, but this part has been bugging me most.

Lordganon (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Egypt

In a large-scale follow up to the review of Greece, I'm putting forward a plan for Egypt and Kemet. I think it's fair to say that I came up with most of the broad outlines; Imperium Guy did most of the actual research and will write most of the details; ForsakenPear did even more fine-grained research and will contribute even more fine-grained details; and Mal3ssio97 produced multiple versions of the maps. For this Gothic cathedral of a proposal, it's Mal's blueprint, my block of stone, Imp's gargoyle, and FP's grotesquely carved facial features.

As ever, the goal is to keep as much the same as possible, while correcting things that were truly implausible. In Egypt's case, the biggest problems were the giant Greek colony, an overly-ambitious irrigation project, and more than a hint of the anti-Muslim bias that affects many of the earlier pages of the timeline. The following chart shows the plans for what to keep and what to change.

There's still... ... but now...
a Muslim Brotherhood takeover in 1984 there will more exploration around the motives for their actions, so they aren't just cartoon villains.
an Israeli attack against Cairo in 1987 the prelude to war, with lots of climate and agricultural factors, will be explained in the complexity that such an event deserves.
Greek support for survivors near the coast they're supporting the remnants of Egypt's navy, the only national institution to survive, rather than Copts who congregate in the Delta. For its efforts, Greece will reap close ties to Egypt and influence over its development, rather than an enormous colony.
a Coptic-dominated state called Kemet that forms in the aftermath it'll be in the south, not the north, where the Copts actually are concentrated. (Putting the Coptic state in the Delta seems to have mostly been a plot device made to facilitate a Greek takeover.) And there's going to be a more complete explanation as to why the Copts gather, why they take the step of forming a state, and how they maintain their independence from Egypt.
Greek presence in a zone in Suez supervised by the League of Nations it's an international zone rather than a Greek colony. Greek forces cooperate with contingents from Egypt, Kemet, Israel, and the Gulf.
a large hydrology and irrigation project in the Western Desert an enormous amount of geological and climatological research has produced a plan for a hopefully more realistic project. It will be a series of canals that feed oases, but rather than an entire second Eonile, the water not absorbed or evaporated will return to the Nile along a more feasible course, which is not yet complete. Also, it began under the Muslim Brotherhood and today is a joint project of the Arab Republic and Kemet.
peaceful coexistence between the Arab Republic and Kemet, and between Egypt and Israel it will be a peace based on mutual interests, strategic cooperation, and realpolitik, rather than one enforced by Greek colonizers.

- False Dmitri (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh and PS, having the Prince of the Muhammad Ali dynasty fly over from Monaco to universal acclaim will also be removed. I missed that detail when I first wrote up this chart. Enough is enough. False Dmitri (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Update: I have completed rewrites for Kemet and the History section of Egypt. A lot of the text is adapted from material originally by Imperium Guy (and of course incorporating ideas from ForsakenPear). Hopefully I'll get to the other sections soon, but in the meantime please read and critique. False Dmitri (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
One final substantive change that I had not anticipated - in the absence of a Greece that is colonizing everything, it seems implausible that Egypt would be able to seize control of those Libyan oilfields. The arrangement made sense in a world where Greece was heavily colonizing both Libya and Egypt and conceded a portion of the oilfields to Egypt as a kind of compensation. But an independent Cyrenaica would fight to keep them, surely - and I don't think that Egypt would be willing to wage a war for territory, not after what had happened the last time. So I've kept it where Egypt annexes Kufra. Egypt tried to occupy some of those oil-rich areas but had to return them to Cyrenaica, in exchange for some kind of exploitation rights. But no direct pipeline to Egypt, that wouldn't stand. False Dmitri (talk) 02:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
One more update - FP did some work with the canal and the climate. So the prose has transitioned and reflects the new version. Some things need to be added, in particular an updated map and names for Egypt's recent presidents. False Dmitri (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Hello to everyone, i'm Alessio, caretaker of the article about Sicily, i will expain down here in a handy and simple, table with a comparison of both versions.

Argument Old version New version
Formation of the republic Establishment of the state with a possible coup d'etat, not specified in the old article. Creation of an agreement between the Clans of Palermo, the Stidda (Clans of Eastern Sicily, independent from Cosa Nostra) and the regional government, alongside military officers present in the island.
Causes of the formation Decision of Cosa Nostra to control Sicily Managing the post-apocalyptic scenario and minimize any damage done by it, as well avoid any possible famine or rioting thanks to the influence of the Mafia, in return, the clans asked the drop of any former criminal charge against them and their associates and the capture of Totò Riina and his Corleonesi.
What happen to the Mafia? Consolidation of their power and via Fascist actions. With the drop of any charges against them, many will enter into politics, or turn their old illegal activities (Depending on what) into legal companies or corporations that are approved by the state, generating a small amount of economical revival alongside.
Form of government A fascist dictatorship run by the Mafia The government here will hold its first elections in 1986, after the creation of a new constitution, inspired from that of the old Italian Republic, the new form of the state will be a semi-presidential republic, deemed necessary because the parliamentary system is seen as too much expensive and too much consuming time.
Between 1984 and 1988 Period of relative peace, economical stability and martial law. The first decade after the war would see near to zero or zero economical growth or even stability, the main goal of the regional government is to survive and avoid any starvation or the possibility of revolts or riots, by 1985, Sicily had restored their electrical generating capabilities and continued to stabilise further. Food rationing, however, was still in place and people were advised to try to start producing food for themselves, this until 1998. In this, the mafia would come in handy by giving the government the resources necessary for a successful farming industry such as: fertilizers, seeds, terrains and other resources needed for the region to survive better than other nations.


The confiscation of Corleonesi properties also helped, providing housing for refugees to the island.

Reunification of the peninsula The military operations, done with the help of neo-fascist militias will be done in just over a year, from March of 1987 to December of 1988. The government in 1986 would hold various meetings with the Cheif of Staff (Army, Navy, Air Force and US forces) about a possible invasion of the peninsula for the reclamation of the land for the Italian provisional government, from 1987 to 1988 the armed forces would conduct exercises and operations simulating land invasions and long marches across dangerous terrains. The military operations would start February-March of 1988 and ending in May of 1990 with the capture of the Peninsula up until the ex-regions of Marche and Umbria and up until the Arno river.


Seeing the limited resources that the government would have, and acquire during the reconquest the invasion by sea of Genoa and Venice (is literally a fortress) would be scrapped in favour of land operations that would have passed via Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany by the year 1992 or after it.

Afterwards Cold peace between themselves and his neighbours, with economical developments and industrializations. On the 17th of March of 1991 the government would end to saw itself as the provisional government of the Italian Republic and declare the reformation of the Italian Republic, and declaring the current government the 46th national government; succeeding the 45th government of Bettino Craxi and entering the 10th Legislature of the Italian Republic.

With the stability in the reconquered areas of the peninsula, the government would start a process of economical reintegration and of investments in the poorest areas of the republic, also here, seeing how bad did the specified interventions of the pre-war government in motivating the local economy with industries (they were called "Oasis in a desert" for a reason), the government here instead would give funds to local authorities and local companies for let them choose what to invest and in what sectors. And also it will be in this period that limited trade relations with surviving governments and post-apocalyptic entities would commence, the most profitable trade partners for Italy during the 90s would be the Alpine Confederation, the ex-Yugoslavian states, the Hellenic Republic, the countries of North Africa, Israel and Turkey.

Foreign relations Not recognized by the international community until 2010 Italy would maintain radio signals with Malta, Tunisia, Libya and other Italian survivor states like Sardinia, after the reunification Italy would conduct two individuals operations in the Mediterranean Sea in 1991 for report how badly were affected the countries in Southern Europe and North Africa, as well as Asia.


Always in 1991 relations will be reestablished between Australia and Portugal during the expedition of the USS Benjamin Franklin and the submarine Albacora, both crews would stay in Palermo for a week until returning to their voyage, providing the Italian government with useful information about the status of the world and what did it happen in other nations, the Italian Navy will send two corvettes with the two submarines up until the Suez Canal, where the Albacora and the USS B. Franklin would split up.


After 2002 the relationship with Europe would change drastically, especially with the countries that are in the Mediterranean area, this didn't mean that Italy will be isolated from everyone like it is North Korea today, simply it will still maintain good relationships with other countries like Argentina, Australia, Mexico, Canada, USSR, Turkey, Israel, Scotland, Denmark, Colombia, Japan and so on.

Swift to authoritarianism Present since 1983 as it seems in the article. From 1985 to 2002 the provisional republic and after the establishment of the Italian Republic the state can be described as a dominant-party system democracy, like it was in Italy from 1946 to 1983 with the domination of the Christian Democracy in every aspect of the government.


From 2002 up until 2011 the Italian nationalist politician Paolo De Stefano would win the general elections after a series of attacks on Sicilians and an aggressive propaganda campaign to give to Italy his right place in the world and also to make Italy great again from the ashes of the war, he would gradually dismantle the democratic system that existed before gradually becoming an authoritarian dictatorship with inspiration from Mussolini's Italy and Pinochet's Chile in 2004/05, with time he would outlaw trade unions, various freedoms given by the constitution, banning every party that was against the current form of the state and the institution of a secret police and the set up of various penal colonies in remote islands for political dissidents and Libyan rebels, alongside common criminals and bandits.

I will also provide you of some informative links that can be useful for understanding cold war Italy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Italian_Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mafia_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_%27Ndrangheta_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piersanti_Mattarella

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corleonesi_Mafia_clan

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Economy#ref318073

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/The-economic-miracle#ref319102

Alex, Mal3ssio97 02:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest the following to allow for a more realistic Italian state to exist, but preserving existing canon:

  • Immediately post-Doomsday, the regional government of Sicily takes control of the island with support from surviving assets of the Italian Armed Forces and US forces stationed at Naval Air Station Sigonella, Comiso Air Station, and the Mechanized Brigade Aosta outside of Messina.
  • The Mafia begins to gain power in smaller communities as the government and military are focused on assisting refugees and securing fuel, ammunition, and food supplies as well as sending expeditions to the mainland for the same purpose.
  • Throughout the rest of the 1980’s, the Mafia slowly consumes all other organized crime on the island, drop the requirement that members cannot be related or involved with a person who is in the justice system, and grows in power in the smaller communities to the point it begins to take over the local governments and judiciaries.
  • Meanwhile, the government manages to convince Sardinia, Tunisia, and survivors on mainland Italy to join as a means of survival, and for future referendums to decide their status as provinces of Italy or independent nations.
  • It begins to buy up farms, businesses, hospitals, etc. seizing control of many necessities to survive and the organization begins to infiltrate the military. *There are attempts to prosecute them, but by this point it is beginning to become difficult due to the sheer amount of people who are involved and the number of corrupt judges, police officers, and government officials.
  • In the early 1990’s members of the Mafia openly participate in the election (not as members of the Mafia) and win the majority of votes, while some journalists and military officials are skeptical and believe there was bribery and intimidation (there was), they quickly withdraw their statements or disappear.
  • The Mafia government suspends elections on the cause of the ‘national emergency’ caused by Doomsday and arrests the remaining members of parliament not corrupted or members of the Mafia, ironically on trumped up corruption charges.
  • Surviving US troops and expats are expelled after their equipment and weapons are seized by the military. Most make their way to Greece or Malta.
  • The new government basically functions somewhat the same as the government they overthrew, however much more corrupt.
  • To distract people from the corruption, the government begins to pirate cargo ships passing through the central Mediterranean. When Greek, Spanish, and other governments protest and begin to defend their cargo ships with force, the Sicilian government manipulates the population into thinking they are being attacked.
  • This causes the First Sicily War, which is more of a Cold War where Sicily is raiding commercial shipping and small communities on the coasts of Greece, Spain, France, and Africa. These nations are retaliating by sinking Sicilian ships and detaining sailors.
  • The war continues up until the Second Sicily War as it is essentially a frozen conflict.
  • The Sicilian Government, with more discontent toward the lack of elections and public opinion beginning to swing that the national emergency can be suspended, invades Greece claiming that the pirates are operating from the Greek Islands. This triggers the Second Sicily War.
  • The war occurs as in existing canon.
  • Before the war breaks out, the ADC viewed Sicily as more of a nuisance than a threat and didn’t anticipate an invasion.
  • Post-war, the Atlantic Defense Community and Italian Peninsula Alliance make efforts to inform the citizens of Sicily of the government’s lies. This causes some minor protests which are quickly put down by law enforcement and the mafia.
  • However, this quickly snowballs from transparency protests to pro-democracy protests. The military violently puts down the protests.
  • The Sicilian Government demands the ADC stop interfering, however it denies culpability.
  • In 2013 a bomb takes out the leader of the protests and everyone points fingers at the mafia run government who claims that the person was making homemade explosives and died in an accident.
  • The CANZ and ADC demand an independent investigation (which doesn’t occur).
  • People’s anger, while for decades pacified by stable food and fuel supplies as well as security, rise up and take to the streets, demanding free elections.
  • The government agains violently puts them down, however this time the protesters get a portion of the military to support them, and both the ADC and IPA are covertly supplying weapons and hardware via submarine and air drop to the protestors.
  • After major fighting on the island, the Sicilian government is overthrown in 2014 and a new interim government with support of the IPA and ADC is formed.
  • The interim government holds elections the following year, in 2015 with the recently reformed Christian Democracy Party defeating the Democratic Party of the Left.
  • Immediately, the new government works with Greece to make amends, providing material and laborers to help rebuild the islands invaded by the mafia-run Sicily. It also supports an independent Tunisia and Sardinia however openly states it hopes for a future democratically run, unified Italy. However it’s neighbors are wary for good reason, but still with support from the CANZ and ADC agree to enter into talks. Both the CANZ and ADC believe by unifying into one nation, the moderates can help prevent a similar situation in the future. The ADC is hoping a reformed Italy would join the organization, strengthening it further. However, the Greeks are extremely reluctant given the recent behavior of the nation and major damage it took during the war.
  • Talks wrap up in 2021 for Sicily and it’s neighbors to work in tandem to repair infrastructure between the nations and a set goal to reunify Italy by 2040.
  • Additionally, Sicily agrees to join the ADC, albeit the Greeks are hesitant, adding another powerful member to the alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

First of all i want to thank you Daesunglim for the critics and the review that you brought up, i already read them and many of them are well thinked and makes a lot of sense, however i have to dismiss some of your points, because they neglected the pre war history of the mafia, Sicily and what did happen in Sicily before the war, i will give you a summorize becuase those things would not happen.

  1. First thing off is the Mafia, you have to understand that between 1981 and 1984 there was a war inside Cosa Nostra, between the clans of Palermo and other cities and the Clan of the Corleonesi, this war was started by Riina, the boss of the Corleonesi because he wanted power and be the absolute ruler of Cosa Nostra, by 1983 only a few clans of Palermo remain alive, there will be this clans that would seek help from the regional government, and those clans are wealthy, unlike the Corleonesi, the main difference is that those clans were pragamatic and wealthy, meanwhile the Corleonesi were rutheless and violent, but poor. So just because a global war happen dosen't mean that Riina don't want to finish the job, no, now he is more incitated to finish the job and maybe also hit the regional government and be the absolute ruler of the island. Plus you have to consider the Stidda, clans that are indipendent from Cosa Nostra and that are located in Eastern Sicily (Messina, Catania, Ragusa, Siracusa and etc.) So here the clans of Palermo will seek out the protection of the regional government in order to stay alive, using the newly anti mafia laws of the same year the government will register any boss of this clans as a "Pentito", meaning a person who has reget their mafia oath and so in this case they have the legal requirements for give them freedom and liberty, in return the clans will help the government in the fist stages of the post war and also give any information that they have about the mafia, and in particular against Riina.
  1. The regional govenment would never expel the Americans or any NATO personeel from Sicily, because they are valuable assets with much needed military and speclialist skills, for example engieneers, technicians and so on, not to mentioning the man pool and the expirience that they have, so after a year, and realizing that the US is gone the forces of NATO and the US sign a document with the regional government agreeing to the transfer of their old country's equipment and ordinances to the provisional government and in return asking for citizenship and also to live in Sicily.
  1. I like your idea about the cargo ships, is a thing that the Italian government did implement before the war, it was called "Strategia della Tensione", i provided a link for it above this post so you can see what i was taking about, but i think they will also use raid attack on the border or even hiring bandits for doing this or ex terrorists.
  1. After the war in 2010 there was an earthquake in the northeast part of the country, it destroyed many towns and cities and it killed over 300 people and cut off that region for sometime, here the CANZ and the SAC, alongside the LoN could use humanitarian aids as a bargening chip, they will help Italy in rebuild in exchange for the end of the dictatorship, Di Stefano refuse this deal and this caused massive protest by the people, especially in that area and also the political opposition and the military would agree that enough is enough and they will ousted him, there will be a brief period of combined military government and civilian before announcing new democratic elections.
  1. Also about the ADC i disagree too, i very much doubt that Italians, even those who are democratic and antifascist would be willing to join an organization that just some years ago did attack Italy and bomb our cities, anti ADC sentiment will remain for quite some time. In my opinion the new foreign attitude of the republic will be that of armed neutrality, the maintaing of a strong armed force in order to counter any foreign attack, but it will be active in LoN decisions and peacekeeping operations, becoming a large manpool for the LoN in Europe. The whole situation will be similar to Serbia regarding NATO.

Mal3ssio97 23:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Gettysburg

Does anyone object to me increasing the population of Gettysburg? Right now, canon has the population at around 102,000 people. However, I expanded the borders as page was last updated in 2011 and I believe it is fair to assume in 10 year it would expand. Additionally, natural barriers are better borders than arbitrary lines splitting an area, especially while trying to organize a government.

I expanded the borders to the Susquehanna River in the east (original canon was halfway through York County which is fairly flat and indefensible), in the north to the State College border, and in the west to the edge of Franklin County, as there are some pretty substantial mountains and tributaries to the Potomac that would serve as a decent natural barrier.

The 1980 population of the area it encompasses was almost 775,000 people. While I know Baltimore and Harrisburg were destroyed, the radiation would have missed much of the territory it encompasses (I did subtract the population of the communities across the river from Harrisburg as they would be destroyed in the blast or irradiated). Additionally, there would likely be survivors (albeit limited) from the Baltimore metro area. I estimated that a 2020 realistic population would be 257,000 people, assuming a negative compound of 30% from the chaos and radiation immediately after doomsday (542,500) , 30% from radiation poisoning (379,750), and 40% from starvation, disease, etc, leaving 227,850 people immediately after Doomsday.

I have also updated the largest city to York from Gettysburg. In the region it encompasses, Gettysburg is like the 10th or 11th largest town at around 7,000 people. York has around 45,000 people, and Gettysburg is fairly isolated. Even Chambersburg, Carslile, and Westminster have larger populations than Gettysburg in OTL, though I did beef up the population of Gettysburg due to it being the capital.

I want to avoid changing canon too much, however one issue is that Gettysburg’s government is modeled off the US government and yet it is aligned with Virginia, a somewhat fascist military state. To rectify this, I have created a third party in Gettysburg called the Veteran Party, which is growing in popularity and calls for a similar style government to Virginia. It also is calling for Gettysburg to expand further east and west in a Manifest Destiny esque belief. This area is pretty far right in OTL, so I have this party rapidly growing and the ideas becoming more mainstream.

I am also creating a military page for the nation. My plan is for it to have around 15,000 soldiers with around 13,500 in the Army and 1,500 in the Air Force. The only body of water it touches is the Susquehanna, so I plan on treating any water patrol forces like I did with the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, in a riverine squadron.

From what I have found there are not many military assets in the region, again, similar to Susquehanna. Due to this, I will have much of its equipment coming from Virginia. However, in York there is a large Harley plant that I plan on stating it is restored with help from Virginia, albeit at a much smaller scale, and it manufactures motorcycles for military and civilian usage.

As far as foreign relations go, I plan that the government does not recognize State College or Reading as successor states to Pennsylvania and rejects their authority. However, it will have relations with all PA survivor states as well as Delmarva, the UC nations, and the Dixie Alliance nations. It will be in a political conflict with Delmarva over northern Maryland territorial control. If the group agrees, Gettysburg may also get into conflict with State College over the western border and Reading (and Susquehanna by proxy) over Dauphin Lancaster, and Lebanon counties.

I think Virginia needs to have its borders updated to encompass part of SW Pennsylvania and Gettysburg would support this, however this would draw it into conflict with North Pennsylvania and State College, both of whom claim that region.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Air Forces

Something I have been considering is Air Forces in North America by survivor states. Obviously nations that would have had aircraft within their borders and major infrastructure survive as well as contact with other nations, such as Mexico, Canada, Victoria, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas, possibly the United States, and possibly Provisional Canada could have fairly substantial air forces comparatively given its involvement in the ADC and trade with the Nordic Union and Celtic Alliance. Mexico and Victoria would have a domestic industry that they could heavily rely on as well as trade with South America and Oceania respectively. Alaska and Hawaii were in somewhat decent contact with Australia and New Zealand immediately after DD and are both protectorates of the CANZ, so they likely would be well equip (especially given Alaska’s bordering of Siberian held Alaska), Texas was in contact with Mexico and they both seem to be on friendly terms, and the USA/Provisional Canada likely had enough surviving industry and oil fields they could keep some aircraft operational, though time would absolutely take its toll and replacing aircraft would become increasingly difficult until trade with Canada, Mexico, and Oceania increased.

Nations like Vermont, Deseret, Florida, and possibly some of the countries located around Lake Ontario could keep small air forces through trade with friendly nations (namely Canada, the NAU, and SAC) as well.

But the more I think about it, I feel that most survivor states in North America couldn’t support an Air Force of any meaningful size or capabilities or at a minimum would be utilizing almost exclusively piston driven aircraft. Nations like Superior, Kentucky, and Virginia all seem to operate jet fighters and turbo propeller driven bombers and transports from their pages and I wonder if this would actually be unlikely.

The nation I worked on, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, I have been debating if I should get rid of the Air Force all together because I’m not sure if it could actually support aircraft given its relative isolation and lack of fuel.

Converting planes to LNG, biofuels, etc. is extremely difficult and time consuming and in OTL, the technology has been slow and difficult to adapt. Heavily damaged nations that likely are economically on par with Eastern Europe or parts of Africa equivalently in OTL would absolutely struggle with accessing the technology required to make these adjustments.

Military aircraft are notoriously parts and time intensive and large scale air combat is much less likely in the former USA, especially given the Balkanization and that there are other superpowers. The only major war I can think of that involved significant air power in North America was the Saegunay War. Even Virginian and Kentucky attacks on gangs that used air strikes could have easily been performed by artillery.

I am not saying these nations shouldn’t have air forces, I’m just wondering if there isn’t too much leeway being given, especially considering the severe damage to information and infrastructure the US mainland sustained.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: I got rid of Susquehanna’s Air Force. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was unlikely given its location in rural Pennsylvania far from nations that would produce enough parts to maintain them. Ground vehicles are a lot easier to maintain, so I left those and increased the number of cargo trucks and added an air defense company (radar and surface to air missile launchers) to the Army National Guard (I do think that is plausible).

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)



ADOPTIONS

Archive 1

Adoption of North Pennsylvania and joint adoption of State College

As nobody has commented adversely to my adoption of North Pennsylvania and the joint adoption of State College by Daeseunglim and me, I understand that these adoptions are effective. Thank you. Could the Wiki administrators take whatever action is necessary to evidence the adoptions?

Renaultlouis (talk) 02:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)Renaultlouis 02:40 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Formal adoption request for North Pennsylvania, joint request for State College.

At the end of June I indicated my interest in taking over North Pennsylvania and asked for reactions. My intended directions are set out in the many posts that I've already made (sorry if I'm over-doing it).

So far I've heard only from Daeseunglim, who supports the request. I'd like to formally ask to adopt NP, effective July 20 if there are no concerns.

Daeseunglim has suggested that we jointly adopt State College and Gettysburg. I'm happy to work on SC now, but am reluctant to take on Gettysburg, because it's allied with Virginia, which is going to be NP's nemesis. A writer on both sides of a conflict will miss out on creative tension.

After I clean up NP, I might consider editing a Central European or South American page that needs work, but that may be several months in the future. Thank you all for your patience with me.

Renaultlouis (talk) 14:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Renaultlouis 14:39 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@RenaultLouis, I am revising Gettysburg right now, my plan was for us to update North Pennsylvania and Gettysburg when these are done, jointly update State College. I may also request control of Reading to further flesh out this page.

I am setting up Gettysburg as a potential adversary but not a blatant enemy of the rest of the state. More akin to the relationship between some African nations and the USA, adversarial but not confrontational. I think we need to have further discussions with other members to see if it is realistic for North Penn and State College to form a supranational organization and I need to get the alignment for Lehigh, Reading, and Susquehanna approved.

Additionally, I think we need to get a group consensus if Virginia has begun to enter former Pennsylvania, and work to set up a conflict if it is realistic.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Adopting every Italian state

Hi, i'm Alex, a long time contributor of 1983: Doomsday, and i would ask if i can adopt every article about the Italian survivor states; Genoa, Tuscany, Venetia, Sardinia and Lecce too.

I intend to expand this article and add a bit of fresh to Italy, also to expand and correct some of the errors written 10 years about about Lecce, Venice, Genoa, Tuscany and Sicily too. I hope that you will agree with me that Italy need a refreshment and some adjustments. Mal3ssio97 23:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

...What you view as errors are not. Answer overall is "no" and "ask the authors" Lordganon (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Planning on a scale beyond the individual city-state is obviously necessary to clean things up, and not just for Italy. But we ought to wait til there's consensus on your current Review of Sicily, which is still in a very unfinished state. Once the new version of Sicily is confirmed, we can move on to planning the rest of Italy. One thing at a time. False Dmitri (talk) 16:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the Sicily page needs to be completely revamped. The history violates well established canon on the Second Sicily War and the ADC, as well as the Saguenay War page.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Well the point of a Review is to change the canon, because it's seen as inaccurate or unrealistic in some way. In the case of Sicily, such a review was definitely necessary; but yes Alessio needs to be really careful here because as you say the country has affected so many other parts of the timeline. False Dmitri (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Adopting the Sicilian Mafia

Hi to everyone, i'm Alessio, the owner of the page about Italy, i formally request to adopt this page too, as is connected to Italy and viceversa.

My intent is to maintain the feeling and the ideas of the page, as they make sense and they are realistic, what i want to do is expanding on some topics, like how the Mafie changes after the war and become companies and corporations, legal in the eye of the state and of the world, how this companies are using front operations for still practice illegal activities like the smuggling of drugs or weapons.

As well helping and supporting outside mafie and giving them funds, for example in France, Delmarva, Texas, Canada and also reviving support by the clans located in Australia and South America, i would also as well extend the operations of the mafia in places like Atlantic City or Toledo and Victoria.

Alessio (talk) 07/07/2021 16:39 UTC+1

Adoption of Vietnam page

Good evening, I'm 1234chernobyl, want to request the adoption of the page of Vietnam, as it's connected to Southeast Asia and vice versa.

The intention of my adoption is changing the general idea of Vietnam based on the 1983's plausibility combined with a minority of the original author's ideas that's seems to be plausible and viable to the situation. It's must be clear that the Communist Party at the peak of íts' popularity during the transition from Soviet-style communism to a renovated one. At the same time, if Hanoi was nuked, the base of the conservatives (and some central reformers) was destroyed and local reformers would rise in the VCP.

There are some current, former and future Politburo and Central Committee members that were still alive, one even be groomed as the General Secretary (Nguyen Van Linh) by the reformists. Tobias (Perseus Potter) and I, again, would extend it into a more moderate and plausible way.

1234chernobyl (talk) July 16, 2021.

Yes, reading Vietnam more carefully you're absolutely right about that. An anticommunist government comes to power for no real reason. I don't think there's any evidence that anybody there was harboring nostalgic feelings about pre-communist or South Vietnam; so even if the regime did collapse it certainly would not come out looking like that.
As with all reviews, the goal is to keep any ideas that can be kept. Perhaps fortunately, the page is short, so there is room to add a lot. I would recommend keeping a military takeover following 1983, maybe followed by the liberalization that it hints at. Vietnam's international role as a partner of ANZ should also be kept if possible.
False Dmitri (talk) 02:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

State College and Gettysburg

With North Pennsylvania undergoing major revisions, I would like permission to jointly adopt both State College and Gettysburg with support from Renaultlouis. I will not change the basic history, but both nations are not well fleshed out and seem to have been created during the very early stages of this collaboration.

I would like to work with Renaultlouis especially on State College, given discussions I had with Lordganon, Arstar, and Godfrey Raphael on the future of Pennsylvania.

Daeseunglim (talk) 20:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

More than fair, you're taking Pennsylvania to great heights. False Dmitri (talk) 07:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)