Talk: 1983: Doomsday

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Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32

GENERAL DISCUSSION[]

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics[]

Map?[]

DD1983-UK-climate-2024. — 2022 states and climate DD1983 UK.

(Posted by Curzedarounda)

Slightly illogical details in the Caucasus[]

On the map on Ossetia's wiki page, it controls part of Ingushetia. This is very unlikely as there are historical ethnic tensions between Ossetians and Ingush, which broke out into a war in 1995.

Also, it doesn't seem logical that Kalmykia controls northern Dagestan. Unlike in Astrakhan, where there is no political authority and it makes sense that Kalmykia would expand in that region, there is very much a political authority in Dagestan. Besides, on the actual Kalmykia wiki page, the map doesn't display Kalmykia controlling northern Dagestan. But there may be some old lore behind this. What do you think though? Trolligi (talk) 15:19, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I would not go by the details of the map of Ossetia. It's very much a blue blob and not a precise map. It shows an approximate zone of influence at the time of its creation (2011). It certainly doesn't take everything into account. Besides, the map at Chechnya (1983: Doomsday) shows that most Ingush territory has become part of Chechnya. For your next point, neither local map (Dagestan or Kalmykia) shows the Kalmyks taking any Dagestani territory. That must be an error on the world map. I can report it at the World Map Changelog. False Dmitri (talk) 01:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

LoN in Cape Town[]

Right now the LoN headquarters moves to Cape Town in 2015. It's a perfect spot for it, but it feels like too quick a turnaround from its era of civil war. I'd like to move it forward to 2018, with the Hall of Peace opening in 2020. False Dmitri (talk) 19:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I still feel like that is a really accelerated timeline. Cape Town was liberated in 2006 and likely was devastated in the fighting. Even with financial support and reconstruction by the CANZ and SAC, I doubt the city will be able to host the LoN in any significant capacity until at least the 2020’s.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Kyrgy Soviet Socialist Republic[]

On the world map there is a gap between Kazakhstan and Uyghurstan. I cross checked to a world map and thatnis eastern Kyrgystan. With no nations being marked there, I think it is possible the USSR has annexed this as a the Kyrgy SSR by the 2020’s; even with their focus in former China.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Daes you are correct in pointing out that the USSR already controls a slice of Kyrgyzstan. The page just has to be written. Arstar (talk) 23:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography[]

Please leave suggested changes to the main world map in the World Map Changelog. •

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals[]

Section archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Proposal template for sections[]

I made a new version of the proposal template for sections. It's for when you have an idea to add to a page like Literature or Comic Books, and the idea is new enough to need discussion but not long enough for a separate article. It's Template:DDProp-section (type {{DDProp-section}} ). It looks like this:

This section is a Proposal. It has not been ratified and is not yet a part of the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. You are welcome to correct errors or comment on the talk pages for this article or the timeline.

- False Dmitri (talk) 02:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Culture / Society[]

Archives: Page 1 • Page 2 • Page 3

Arcade Games[]

While I generally like Goldwind's article, I feel as though it's lacking in certain capabilites. I hate how every osaka based game publisher is just lumped into Sakura Digital Factory with no real explanation, or how various oher game studios are just glossed over. It dfeinitly needs some expadning.Kelothan (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I see on the talk page he's given you permission to edit the article, I think he would appreciate its expansion and improvement. Arstar (talk) 23:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I gave kelothon permison to expand with out chanign any prexisitng bits of my article. Cacpcom had releasd only there first prodcut a medal game called little league in 1983. They did have a hit game untill 1942 was relased in 1984. Snk was a little more established with in 1983 since they relased there first game in 1978 and even had one hit which the 1981 arcade game vandguard. They have another hit unitl 1984 mad chrasher. I felt that Snk and capocm would collospe after ww3 band there were not big enough in 1983 for someone to want to revie the brand after they the eccomny stablizes. How i feel that pauble that some body would the protypes for cacpom and snk unrealsed 1984 game and use those assest to start a new company called sakura digtigal. Komina was big enough brand to be restarted after the war so I apporve of komnai on the list

The fate of Harry Turtledove in this timeline.[]

I had my own idea before. In this timeline, with the outbreak of nuclear war in 1983, Harry Turtledove either died in the nuclear war or went to Mexico with the refugees. So in the case of a nuclear war, if he survived, his work might be like that.

In the Crosstime Traffic series, there may be a work like this, a world where nuclear war has never happened, and the Soviet Union has avoided disintegration and continues to this day. He might write a novel in which there was no nuclear war in 1983, but instead a melee between the United States and the Soviet Union. As for other novels, there may be some changes.

User:Chunhui948 (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

like otl which isOldsvito2999 (talk) 14:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion[]

A Question Regarding Exclusion Zones[]

Specifically how do you go about calculating them. At the moment I'm working on the basis of "about two miles outside the outermost ring on Nuke Map (which is well outside the limit of the radiation) and well out of the path of fallout" but I thought I'd better check because there's a lot of stuff that's kinda borderline.

Tessitore (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

New Rule Proposal: No AI Content[]

I would like to propose that the community adopt a simple amendment to the Guidelines prohibiting the use of AI-generated images and text. Arstar (talk) 18:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I am 100% on prohibiting AI text. Really it's just bad form here on the wiki in general. Images I can take or leave. Most of the Doomsday-related AI images have ranged from "kind of bad" to "cursed" but considering the low-res or nonsensical images added to past articles before we had AI, I'm content to say these are products of their own time to be replaced in the future. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 08:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I also would support replacing existing AI images, though like Crim says that's not urgent. False Dmitri (talk) 16:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS[]

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31

Two of Snolf's proposals, a southern Minnesotan survivor state and its larger regional organization. Connects to other lore well in the region. Arstar (talk) 04:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Wow, this has been stuck here a long time. It's ready, isn't it? False Dmitri (talk) 23:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I think North Star is a good addition but UMC kind of overly populates the region, going from nothing except the US state and Olmsted to packed very fast. I think maybe the first is good to go. Arstar (talk) 22:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, graduate North Star but the UMC should be obsoleted as its unlikely to happen in the way it exists at the moment. If it can be redeveloped to assimilate into its neighbours which is more likely, then perhaps it can graduate as a defunct state. Trainor90 (talk) 15:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

are you talkting about disbanding umcOldsvito2999 (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the UMC should be canon but defunct, most of the cities in the Communities are part of the US after the treaty of Fargo, leaving the NSR as the only member worth mentioning. Snolf (Talk) 12:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Computer Games[]

Arcade aren't the only source of video games in the post Doomsday era. Personal computers could serve a similar, if smaller scale purpose, for gaming related needs.

Kelothan (talk) 18:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello Hi!

I'm doing a read through and have some points before grad:

The Republic of New York will not be the birthplace of computer gaming in north America, Its too far gone and destroyed in its main centres for this to even be possible. If you can move the place of origin of this company elsewhere you will have a better chance of this being allowed. For now no massively successful gaming industries are coming out of the new York region.

Apart from that it’s a good page, though grad will likely be as a stub, we could do with a new category for ‘Science and Technology (1983: Doomsday) Trainor90 (talk) 15:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that computer game companies would really survive in any way shape or form, and those that would be made would be very, very primitive, even by '90s standards. Think about it: you're taking an industry that fell on its face in 1983 and *then* a nuclear war happened. For maybe the first three decades at least, there's really not any reason to make these. Even then, it's clear that there really isn't any money in this market when it clearly wasn't working out before the war.

You'd maybe have some folks saving computer games from before the war and basically cannibalizing the code into something workable which imo could make for an interesting article. There are also probably some computer games that are also just lost to time that we *know* about, but in the time between Doomsday and now, probably would have been discarded. This is an example of a "digital dark age" which might be worth exploring. We have graduated the Atari page, though the timeline on that really doesn't work to begin with and I'd prefer for that to be reworked before considering graduating this.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not that New York's computer game scene would be "massively successful" but that the younger folk playing around with the New IBM machines would be coming up with stuff that would then gain some notoriety. Binghampton canonically brought back IBM with wider help, so the idea we had there was more about what people have tinkered with . This New York Republic relies more so on Binghampton and Ithaca (including Cornell University, one of the last Ivy Leagues) which had their own computer industries extant and not the destroyed areas. It's one of the hubs of the NA computer scene (I would imagine Victoria being another, Mexico too) which is tiny in comparison to the southern Hemisphere computer econonmy.

And 90s standards is definitely out of the question for graphics. But you would be surprised what some personal computer games were already pulling off in '83. Stuff like this:

Arstar (talk) 21:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Bashkortostan[]

I wrote this very much WIP article, as I think it would be pretty realistic to have a Bashkir survivor state in what's now southern/southeastern Bashkortostan, which is in the Ural Mountains. Bashkirs, Tatars and other ethnic groups in the region have a history of vying for independence (eg. Idel-Ural state, Bashkiria, 1992 Tatar independence referendum), and given the collapse of Soviet authority in the area it would be a great opportunity for the Bashkirs in the region to declare independence, at least in the mountains. Trolligi (talk) 22:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks good for the most part, though I'm skeptical that it would take so long to establish contact with other countries. I think for the most part, the timeline needs to move away from the "fog of war" approach. Even in the case of geographically-remote places, I think a simple radio would, at the very least, allow these countries to communicate. I would like some more written on how the people respond to Doomsday, even if they aren't directly hit, though I'm happy with graduating this once the first issue is addressed. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

SS America[]

Proposal by Arvocado. This is a recent proposal I created regarding the SS America and its potential use as a refugee ship after Doomsday. The SS America is quite known for being wrecked in 1994; but in the doomsday universe, this couldn't have happened. What if, considering the ship was docked away from the blast zone in Greece, the ship was refurbished by survivors into a place of refuge? It would make sense that those looking for a home could use a large ship like that temporarily. The ship was docked in Elefsina Bay, Piraeus, in Greece, which I assume was out of the blast radius. The ship doesn't move until the 90s when it is sold to be an ocean liner again, (this time to help many leave the war zones to safer areas). It would also make sense that companies would use ships to move people from disaster zones as it would be a great money making scheme. Overall, my proposal likely has some issues, and I would like to resolve those issues if they are present. Arvocado (talk) 13:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

This is quite an interesting "What if". This was certainly the fate of a lot of cruise liners around the world. My one comment: the 1990s were still a pretty apocalyptic time in most of the Northern Hemisphere, I think the "Atlantic Division" you describe could exist in that time frame, but would be more oriented to commercial cargo or migration-related travel. The part about an American company buying her in the early 2000s is perhaps a bit early, most of North America was totally de-industrialized and wasn't very active in the global economy again until the Saguenay War and American Spring...maybe it was bought by Americans sometime after its grounding in 2006 and these events? Arstar (talk) 17:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Seconding. Very interesting article and the shipwreck nerd in me loves this kind of stuff, though I'm skeptical of the timeline. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Grand Republic of Texas[]

I would like to move forward with the graduation process of my article. It still has quite a bit of work to go, but I think it would be appropriate to start formalizing it in order to affect canon sooner rather than later. I'm looking forward to feedback and critique!

Pages involved (Note: some of these are blank as I haven't got to them yet):

Grand Republic of Texas
Grand Republic of Texas (1983: Doomsday):Sandbox
Gulf States Union (North America)
~~New Saigon~~

Sir Ross (talk) 14:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok having a review of the document ill list what I feel is necessary to add to get this to grad.

Red text point – these look to be easy fixes to do as they refer to other already written parts of the TL or summarising content from Wikipedia. For now the red text makes the page look unfinished.
Modern Era – ‘Many communities in southwest Oklahoma and eastern New Mexico have opted to join Texas.’ Looking at your map that is a significant chunk of SW OK that has joined, best to run that past people and get5 sign off on such a grab. Also if you can keep your interference into OK native areas to an absolute minimum that would be great. Review work into the natives there is still ongoing.
Increase in oil production, though possible would take some time. Also the highways by 2020 would likely not have at least one lane repaired, this is a car scarce world at this point.
You can put the economy of Texas on the page, I do not think it necessarily merits its own page unless you are writing a whole thesis.
Some general clean-ups too and even just a few lines in each culture point before you expand will be enough for that to be expanded after grad.
Also, I will do an in depth review of the ‘republic of Texas’ page to make sure that everything is in order there before its defuncted.

In all, excellent progress and covering those points above, let me know on the discord when you have done them, and we will grad this. This will also come with needing to update the Americas template and defuncting the other Texan pages. Trainor90 (talk) 15:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

i know you just started with texas of that state but mexicans will come and then make it as one of the new state besides new mexico and arzionaOldsvito2999 (talk) 00:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Reino Aventura[]

Proposal by CentraleuropeDD. Should be a shoe-in. Arstar (talk) 01:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

whats a shoe inOldsvito2999 (talk) 01:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

More content needed before we can consider graduating as stub. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:52, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

European diaspora[]

My first entry for the Great French Update. Will be functionally identical to American diaspora. Arstar (talk) 01:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

French Republic[]

I began this proposal in Summer 2023, a year before we began talks on a formal update of the Francophone world. At the time of writing this I'm proposing this to be the union between parts of the RFTA, Auvergne and Poitiers. Talks of French unification and railroads from west to the center began in 2011, but the plot point was never established. The intention here is to bring the "Seventh Republic" into fruition in a way that acknowledges its flaws, limitations, and even potential for future conflicts with neighbors. I don't think France will ever be one again, or even three again, but its time to do right on this stagnant plot point.

Arstar (talk) 01:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan[]

Apparently someone tried this proposal years ago and it never took off. Daesunglim rightfully pointed out here ->[1] <- that a tiny of sliver of Kyrgyzstan remained continuously in the Soviet Union, and later Socialist Siberia, on every map this timeline has ever put out. In practice, the Issyk-Kul area has been administrated from Kazakhstan, but the idea has emerged to formally develop this province as the Sovereign Union recovers and grows once more. Daes and I will work on this as time permits; I am adding his ideas from the Discord onto the text. Arstar (talk) 21:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

2024 Summer Olympics[]

Now my blueprint on the 2020 olympic games has been graduated. I can begin the page for the 2024 olympics, due to start this month in Lagos.Trainor90 (talk) 16:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Al-Jazira[]

Proposal by Alessio. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The ANZC Population Boom[]

Interesting article by Stillthinking. On a modern demographic trend, takes into account a larger perspective of the East. Could use a bit more bytecount. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I really love it. The recent rework of ANZ barely included any recent history. That was by design, to make room for things like this. One thing that could be added is the ways that immigration have affected politics in different parts of the commonwealth. False Dmitri (talk) 23:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Southern Star[]

Proposal by Kelothan. Hanna-Barbera's Australian branch's post-Doomsday evolution. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

WCRB Flag Atlas of Humanity[]

Proposal by Tullin. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Kootenay Calamity[]

Proposal by Footballhill. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

WyoArts[]

Proposal by Kelothan on the first computer games company of the Torrington-based United States. Personal computers have been attested as returning the North American continent again since 2011, and the studio was founded in 2020, so this falls within good plausibility. Arstar (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

"WyoArts is one of the most successful video games companies in the United States"

Not much competition there, but I am interested in seeing how it gets to that point. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Doomsday in France[]

Technical article I've created to help us out with the France review. Anyone editing that review is welcome to contribute. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 01:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Asian diaspora[]

i made a repsonse to european american ones and anzc population boom.Oldsvito2999 (talk) 12:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

This page and concept could work if you keep consistently good grammar and don't contradict existing canon (keep the numbers realistic, plausible migration patterns etc). Arstar (talk) 06:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Creator was banned. Does anyone want to adopt this? If not we'll mark it inactive. Arstar (talk) 06:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Imperial Family of Japan[]

This fun project has evolved from the sleuthing many of us did trying to find who would be the true heir to the throne of Japan. This is one of those things that will continue to evolve over time, but we should have the central story finalized soon. Arstar (talk) 06:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oil sands conflict[]

An article I cooked up in 2023 regarding a low-intensity armed conflict between parties in Athabasca and the Northwest Alliance competing over oil sand fields (which are in turn exploited byoverseas parties). Arstar (talk) 06:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright, finally done with this. Let me know if there are any issues or if it's ready to grad. Arstar (talk) 06:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

REMUNDO[]

Proper article proposal for REMUNDO. Arstar (talk) 06:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Flanders[]

2022 article by Vinny that went unfinished and never went through the formal proposal process. With a lot more attention on France and Belgium right now, this will probably become a fully fleshed out page in the near future. Vinny plans on fleshing out the story of Flemish/Dutch national sentiments rising after Doomsday and more effort will go into highlighting that this Flanders is distinct from the Lille-Flanders that rules over the linguistically distinct region known as French Flanders. Arstar (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

It's very unfinished. I'd like to help push it along, whenever I find time to help update Lille as part of the French Update. False Dmitri (talk) 22:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Ed Koch[]

2020 proposal by GryffindorKrypton. A thorough and believable story on NYC's last mayor. I think its good to grad - thoughts? Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The Red Squirrel[]

2023 article by Vinny on a communist/anarchist group active in former Belgium and the Netherlands. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

This evolved from comments I made on the server. If Vinny isn't interested in fleshing this out, I'd like to. False Dmitri (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

United Episcopal Church of North America[]

Article by Alberighi59. This was his only contribution besides voting in the Multiverse Awards... Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Islamic Republic of Gorno-Badakhshan[]

2023 article on post-Turkmen SSR survivor state by Aşgabat türkmenleri. Unlike some of his other reviews and proposals in the former USSR, this one doesn't really violate any pre-existing stuff to my knowledge. Even if he doesn't come back, just some minor adjustments by willing parties would suffice to grad imo. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

WCRB Flag Atlas of Humanity[]

Recent article by Tullin on a flag atlas he's doing. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Lexington Conference[]

2022 article by Daesunglim on east North American conference in the aftermath of the American Spring. Incomplete so far but could be a really good concept, especially playing off recent developements with Kentucky, Superior and others on the continent. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

24 Hours of Le Mans[]

2022 Article by F1Geek on a sportscar race restarted after Doomsday. With recent work putting the attempted emergency capital of France in Le Mans for a time, this would make an interesting addition to the canon. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Mediterranean Union[]

2023 article by me with the intent to be a customs union covering the "Allied" countries of the Mediterranean in the aftermath of the Second Sicilian War. Still needs to be heavily re-worked and dependent on other TBD developments in Italy and France. Edits welcome. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Nuclear Weapons[]

Ancient article by HAD that was left as a stub and turned into an exhaustive proposal by Daesunglim in 2021. This will need wider community consensus on the state of nukes in the timeline, but overall incredible thorough and should have been canonized a while ago. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

It's solid, let's use it. False Dmitri (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

George W. Bush[]

Proposal by GryffindorKrypton he worked on from 2020-Summer 2023. I think with the caretakers and contributors to Texas, Mexico, ANZC and APA all present right now, together we can hammer out the inconsistencies and get Dubya into the canon soon. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

U.S. Route 66[]

Another GryffindorKrypton page. Would be good to add lore on all the surviving stretches of this route, I'll do my part on the pages under my purview. Arstar (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Anime and Manga[]

Recent proposal by CentraleuropeDD. Looks promising. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Caspar Weinberger[]

Another minor APA figure by GryffindorKyrpton. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I left a message on that talk page a year ago: "He arrived on 25 September and was there for four days after that - definitely already in Beijing when the attack started on the 26th local time." False Dmitri (talk) 04:52, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Pleasant Lake[]

Pretty unique article by Nickthenick2. Small predominantly-Muslim settlement in rural Indiana. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The Sea Islands[]

Proposal by Gryffindor on a sea republic in coastal Georgia and South Carolina. This goes against the WCRB Reports, Savannah, the USAR somewhat, but maybe it can be reworked heavily (reduced in size) or adapted into the Remnant, Neonotia and others. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

List of Presidents of Partium[]

An uncontroversial list on Partium's leaders. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Freddie Mercury[]

2019 proposal by Zwilson2004. Features an unlikely survival of the band with their Munich-bound flight diverted to Switzerland (is that where they were)? Anyways, 5 years old we should take a vote on it soon. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

UK Reunionist Movement[]

2022 article by Krypton. Not sure if this is redundant or not, but we should take a vote on it. Arstar (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Mexican Armed Forces[]

2023 proposal by Daesunglim. Fits well with recent work in Mexico. Ready for grad I think, any objections? Arstar (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

List of US governors[]

I want to make a list of US governors because it sounds fun User:Alt history enthusiast User talk:Alt history enthusiast 23:43, 18 September 2024

This seems like a good idea. Alot of the ones listed are definitely out of date. Perhaps you uncover a Republican candidate for the 2024 election of the Torrington US in the process. Arstar (talk) 03:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Hutchinson, Kansas[]

I want to make a city state set in Hutchinson, I'm going to do something about raiding on Kansas in it Alt history enthusiast (talk)

CURRENT REVIEWS[]

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Iberian Peninsula and Macaronesia[]

Hello everyone!

I would like to start a project that I consider important for the timeline. I want to rewrite the history of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Gibraltar, and the Pyrenean part of southern France) and Macaronesia (Azores, Madeira, Canary Islands, and Cape Verde). The inclusion of Macaronesia is essential as they are culturally linked to the Iberian world. Additionally, they are essential for the reestablishment of the post-Doomsday states of Portugal and Spain.

I see that in recent months, many pages of the timeline are being rewritten, so I believe it is important to review the Iberian world. The history of the Iberian successor states is very chaotic; sometimes much of the information is not consistent across different pages, it's not canon, or it's information that doesn't align with real-world events. Many gaps need to be filled, and the coherence of Iberian history needs improvement, and I believe it is a very interesting region that has been very forgotten. Therefore, I propose creating a new page titled "Iberian Peninsula and Macaronesia (1983: Doomsday)", where a more accurate and well-founded version of the region's history can be presented. On this page, I will add all the information I can to later rewrite the pages if the community thinks what I have written is correct. For now, I don't want to edit individual pages to avoid modifying information; I think the first step is to provide an overview of history and then proceed with individual rewriting.

I plan to be on this project for the next few months (I think I'll have, for now, two free months). I believe it could be a good idea to create a more complete and accurate history of the Iberian world. Any ideas, comments, suggestions are welcome.

Spinovenator (talk) 11:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello Spinovenator and welcome back to the timeline. This is certainly an ambitious idea you have here. Although unfortunately I have to inform you that the majority of the Iberian Peninsula is already being caretaken right now, although there are a few pages that are open for adoption. Reviews are to be applied sparingly - most typically in the case of deep implausibility. You are correct in pointing out that in 2021 and 2022 there were quite a few pages that were formally Reviewed (sometimes by their original authors, sometimes by admins or newer caretakers) after a years long stretch of slumped activity here, but as of last year we've been applying these reviews more sparingly - (the controversial, and partially-rolled back Italy Review is one example why). As this community is going on 16 years of age, we have to be cautious to not overwrite the ideas of many with the newer ideas of one or two.

I don't want to dissuade you from sharing your ideas on the Iberian Peninsula with us, and please do point out any contradictions you think are present in the work -- those are always a problem that can be fixed. Iberia is a frequent topic on the Discord - CentraleuropeDD, myself, Alessio, Trainor90 and TheWolvesDen (Ondy) are the authors or caretakers of various pages on the Peninsula and we're still working on it frequently. I noticed you are the original author of Cazorla, so we should all definitely be looped in to make a game plan for the region's future going forward.

That being said, there are a few pages that are up for adoption which have gone neglected over the years, should you reach out to their respective authors and ask for permission - Leon-Castille is one such example.

If you want to join us over there, and share your ideas with us there and see what we've been discussing on Iberia, I'll attach the link here -> [2].

Arstar (talk) 23:55, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The Francophonie Update[]

Over the last year many of us have independently brought up concerns that the material on mainland France, the Republic of the French Southern Territories and the French-speaking world at large has largely gone neglected. With the majority of its original authors long-gone from this timeline, there is virtually no new content on the French for the last 15 years. While Spain, Italy, the United Kingdom and Germany have all seen significant reviews, updates, and brand-new content bringing it into the present, its clear that France needs the same treatment.

After discussion with the lads on the Discord, we've agreed to a preliminary road map on how this update will be carried out/the division of labour/time-table, etc. Nothing is finalized, and there are still many open spots for those interested in working on a specific part of things. For now, we plan to divide things into 3 Phases as follows:

Phase 1: Brand new content on Doomsday and the 80s. New strikes, reactor meltdown info, etc...Crim has a lot of good ideas here on how the French government would breakdown. Will be primarily housed on the "France" page or possibly a "History of France" page. We should seek to write a significant amount of brand new content on the collapse of France and the formation of the Sixth Republic. There's so little to work with already that anything we write wouldn't contradict established lore unless your purposely trying to do so. France is arguably the most powerful NATO military after the US and UK, and its post-DD history should reflect how its remnants fared. What's important here is giving it the the "plausibility face-lift" and establishing a singular harmonized account of French history that doesn't contradict with its neighbors, or ignore significant regional events.

New Pages: History of France, European diaspora, Doomsday in France

Existing Pages Affected: France, Gathering Order, RFTA, Timeline, Celtic Alliance, possibly several Pacific countries and the Caribbean Federation.

Phase 2: Adoption of Abandoned Survivor States, Reviewing the Details With the lessons of Italy in mind we should never the less try to clean up the lingering implausibilities. Luckily the most offending stuff were handled already. We try to accommodate the mainland survivor states into the greater history, so it doesn't feel like every part of Europe was written in isolation at different stages (which they were).

New Pages: TBD (Add at-will)

Existing Pages Affected: All former French and Belgian survivor states, French Guyana, possibly others.

Phase 3: Tying It All Together (Can be worked on concurrently to Phases 1-2) / Ancillary Work

The graduation of completely new ideas and the closing of any reviews/reworked concepts - maybe Alessio's old idea for Occitan statelets would be a nice touch of "brand new content" here, as well as any ideas any of you have. Former France's geopolitical status in the 2024 world should be well defined on each page New Pages: French Republic

Existing Pages Affected: Every French survivor state (ideally changes are minimal at this stage, moreso about adding in 2010-2024 stuff)

Ideally as many people as possible should be involved in this so comment below if you want to participate on a specific part of this Update. We will assemble a more formal list of whose-doing-what once things are more clear. With this project, almost all of Western Europe will have been brought into the Present Day. Fun! Arstar (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I can take care of a infobox for France, as well as an expansion to Pre-Doomsday history.Kelothan (talk) 02:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

(Moving from the adoption section) I'm asking to begin to write some more detailed history for Overseas France. In my opinion this isn't something that can be adopted outright; it sort of belongs to the community. But I would like to flesh out the history of the three regions and write some description of how this Republic functions. I don't plan to go further than 2010 or so - after that, it's likely that it will play some role in the history of France proper, and I would leave that to others. False Dmitri (talk) 12:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC) ... I am planning to create three new articles that will house a lot of the new history: ~~French Pacific,~~ French Antilles, and French Indian Ocean. False Dmitri (talk) 01:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a considerable chunk of south eastern france that has fallen under the alpine confeds territory that has little history to it. I propose a page for Grenoble to cover thi effect and to tie it into the Alpine Page. Similarly a large french refugee settlement in north west italy has led to a sub territory of the alps i have dubbed Savoie/Savoia which may tie into some of the french articles and will be reflected in the main alpine page. Trainor90 (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Tullin has started Saint Martin (1983: Doomsday). This would represent something of a change, since the two halves of St Martin have been assumed to be part of the RTFA and Netherlands Antilles; but assumed content has always been protected less than written content. I think the idea of a united island will be a positive for the setting. False Dmitri (talk) 22:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: I'm finished with everything I plan to do with the RTFA and its components. Its history is written up to the dawn of the Seventh Republic era, which will have to be done as a group effort after more history is filled in on the mainland. Brittany is also ready to go, and the C.A. content under Review has all been altered to match it. I think we can close the review soon. That just about (?) wraps it up for Phase 1. I've had to be less active lately. For Phase 2 I'm planning to do some updates to Saint-Pierre and to Lille. Probably nothing more than that, until we get to Phase 3 and start to write the recent history. False Dmitri (talk) 16:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

West Coast Review and Updates[]

For several years now, there have been debates and concerns brought up by various individuals in the user-base regarding certain parts of the North American West Coast (and to an extent the interior "Great Plains" area). Whether it was Minuteman silos that were missed, melted down reactors, concerning large levels of fallout over the heartland of the future Provisional United States, severe disjointedness in style and continuity between adjacent survivor states written by various authors/various time periods, long-standing plausibility issues with the Republic of Lincoln and Visalia or even more recent concerns with the route the Municipal States of the Pacific and later Republic of Jefferson went in contrasted to the original intent. It is clear that there are issues in the region that have had varying degrees of debate surrounding them for some time.

It is a good time to make right on the concerns brought up in the NAU-US Balance discussion, MSP/Jefferson issues and elsewhere. It is also a good time to make brand-new additions to these pages, as more thorough information on the Cold War becomes publicly available that wasn't before. Considering the Pacific Coast is one of the oldest-attested areas in the Northern Hemisphere canon, making sure the region "reads well" and tells a continuous story is important in order to honor some of our oldest creations.

This has been and will continue to be an evolving conversation, but so far the following pages would be affected under this potential review: (Please edit this list to include pages as needed)

American Provisional Administration - will possibly need to accommodate changes to West Coast. I am proposing an overhaul to the early Crescent City Crisis to include newly-discovered military outposts in Northern California which were set aside for a "Doomsday" scenario, as well as the Oregon and Washington state governments (which survived in canon, but were written after the original APA story).
California - will need to reflect new strikes and wider California changes
California Republic - using this time as the author to provide more continuity with MSP story and slightly re-orient starting area. More recent developments on Santa Cruz war and the Bay Area Dredging by the NAU will be untouched.
Cascadia - only a singular change rolling back its annexation to US. It was already an NAU member. Already has consensus.
Chumash Republic - Ancillary issues. Needs to more accurately reflect demographics of area. More recent developments on Santa Cruz war will be untouched. Recently adopted by new user with promising ideas.
Municipal States of the Pacific and Republic of Jefferson - Wider concerns regarding implausibility of alternations made to this survivor state, misinterpretations of earlier source material and impact on the wider lore have been brought up since 2020. The caretaker declined to make the changes requisited. This will most likely be the most debated element of this review.

Republic of Lincoln - this isn't the "West Coast" but is arguably related to the wider NAU's history. The state capital of Lincoln, Nebraska would have been a secondary target due to military presence on Doomsday. I am moving this small Republic back to its original location of Illinois, to the city of Lincoln (where Honest Abe actually lived). Lincolnism will be unaffected. (Completed)
Visalia - Wider concerns regarding implausibility of this survivor state's governing structure have been brought up since 2020. The previous caretaker declined to release the page for adoption in 2023.
Victoria - Additional strikes on Primary/Secondary targets as well as further exposition as to Washington state government's relationship to Federal emergency government/APA attempts. The strike over Victoria proper has already been hand-waved, but there still remain other secondary plaus issues.

New Section Proposals TBD:

Astoria - the small Republic has essentially been frozen in time for almost 12 years. It is high time to decide its fate, and whether or not its dictatorial regime will be re-absorbed back into Oregon now that the Torrington-based United States has rebounded. Alternatively, it may have grown closer to the Washington Protectorate of Victoria, and find itself joining that state. Both are interesting paths to consider.
Oregon and History of Oregon - New Section Proposals for History in 80s-90s. Interweaving with stories explaining why the future MSP, Cascadia and others fell out of contact with state government at Oregon. Exposition on relationship to surviving Federal/APA would be a plus as well. Astoria doesn't really need a review itself but rather its fate needs to be decided.
Washington - Section Proposal on History to acknowledge the state's continuity as it joins Victoria and afterward.

New Pages That May Come Out of This:

North Bay - A new proposal to house information on the Present-Day Bay Area Dredging by the NAU. As Fort Barry was housed here to tuck away competent officers and specialists in the event of a global crisis (along with two recently decommissioned bases further north), this area provides a small redoubt for US Army personnel that were in the area.
Mexicali/Calexico - I think this idea was discussed a while back on the Discord and Wiki alike. Mexican military presence has already been attested in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, but its possible the US side of California has seen similar activity. An Alta California proposal has been attempted but has a lot of issues regarding size, population and over-ambition. But a scaled back concept that focuses only on the border region is possible.
Please Add Anything Other Idea You Have

The intent is not to radically alter the story but to maintain our Editorial standards and bring these pages into the present, only adjusting as necessary for QSS/QAA, new information and overall plausibility. Outright implausibilities necessitating Obsolescence will be judged according to the Obsolescence procedures laid out in the Editorial Guidelines.

This will be an evolving issue over time (much like the above Francophonie project) so please comment your own thoughts below. Arstar (talk) 23:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I am still not happy wih your west coast fixes. Here is my latest comprise proposal. There is no pax pafricica and The pacfic cival war is back but it start latter then before. Also The civic right party is divided between a faction cruput warlords who put a veneer of Democary to get aid form the anzc and a faction of honest libertarians. The honest libaitnain of the civic rights party evunalty get fed up with the brutality of the corrupt warlords and start supporting the rebels. At the war end they agree to let rebels breakaway form the municipal states as the republic of Jefferson. .There is still a civic right party run msp rump but it bigger then you proposal including the former trinity county shata coutny and lasse county. I hope keeping those counties out of torington hands will prevent the west coast power balance form being too out of wack . The Azcn and Sac delcare that people of the msp were oppressed and had a right rise up. They also say that while tyrical force infiltrate the civic rights party , they have been purge form the civic right and that the anzc and the sac will support the msp rump. I want jefferson join the union without causing torrington relaitons with the azcn and sac to delcine and am will to push back the date jefferson joins the union to achive that desire Goldwind1 (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES[]

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Restoring the US-NAU Balance[]

Hello everyone, Arstar here: for some time I've been observing the direction things are going in now (especially in North America and Eurooe) vs. the way they were intended when the pages were written, when these ideas were introduced. As we all know, the canon profile of nations has evolved and expanded greatly over the years, bringing us far from the original fragile rag-tag band of isolated survivor states who found eachother in a sea of death -- Chumash, and the Portuguese islands, South America, Australia, the lonely Atlantic Canada and its tiny client state Aroostook, one of the few "lucky" places of the US to survive, and what remained of Siberia. Now, we have a world springing back to live, literally from the ashes. There's been an argument over the years on how "apocalyptic" this timeline should be, I think it was User:Mitro that called it "gloom" camp versus the "optimist" camp some years ago. Since then, the latter seems to have won out (perhaps as it inherently means more people can participate) the map has sprung to life -- after all, even in the places that would see the most destruction, someone would live to tell the tale, and rebuild their area, even while others fled for greener pastures. So it makes sense that 40 years on, the world map would look something more or less like it does.

However, there is one development that has stuck out in particular, and one I had a hand in, that myself and others, both old and new, believe should be addressed - The United States has become too overpowered from what its original writers, including Mitro, BrianD, and later SouthWriter, intended. As can be seen [[3]], primordial user Louisiannan made a pit stop appearance in 2018 to say this: The information in this article conflicts with information in the North American Union article. In that Article, Utah and Dinetah are part of the NAU, and the NAU, from -THAT- article, seem to be what becomes the restored United States. You should review this."

In the [American Union talk page], Mitro, the creator of both the NAU and PUSA, says.

"Honestly I don't think many states would want to join PUSA. Consider the fact that the leaders/parties/factions/families in power have controlled their survivor states for over two decades. They have established their own institutions and identities, and more importantly they like being big fish in a little pond. To join the PUSA they would have to be "demoted" to roles in a state government and follow the rules of the PUSA government. Now the smaller survivor states might be interested in this. Most are probably surviving only by the skin of their teeth, but the larger states like Provisional Canada (which turned down statehood in PUSA) and Utah (which has become incredibly influenced by the Mormon religion) would see the NAU as the better option. In that organization they have the opportunity to preserve their independence and identity, while getting the benefits of free trade, military aide and other benefits from being a part of an economic/political union. Maybe decades down the line people will call for the NAU to the be the NAF, but right now the loose structure is more preferable.

Right now I think the NAU will remain a western North American institution. States like Superior or Virginia don't hold much interest to the NAU, and they have their own organizations anyway (like the League of American States and the Dixie Alliance). However I wouldn't be surprised if the NAU does not strech their borders west to the Pacific and south to the Rio Grande. "

In summary, the NAU was supposed to be the organism of parabolic here, not the US itself. I myself am partially responsible for this, in a way, I realize, as I along with User:SouthWriter orchestrated the annexations of Oregon and Dakota, as well as the somewhat unlikely union with the Virgin Islands-based United States Atlantic Remnant. While I am not arguing for a full rollback of all the added states, perhaps we should pause looking to expand this Union on grounds of plausibility -- states more urbanized and prosperous than the PUSA residence would not surrender sovereignty to Torrington because of the nostalgia of a generation 50 and up who remembers the old US, but joining the NAU has pragmatic benefits. There are examples of least a few to scale back a few sovereign states making more sense being NAU states instead of US ones, Cascadia, which was already a NAU member state, is a prime example of this. There is nothing they would stand to gain by joining the US when they are already a NAU member-states, which shares the same currency, open borders, trains, telephone grid, and even police presence as the PUSA states. (the territories like Iowa, are a different story, those seem fine). Outside of Cascadia, there has been conflict between the fate of the Municipal States of the Pacific, later becoming the Republic of Jefferson now, I have spoken with User:Goldwind1 and he has explained how his the Republic of Jefferson and the Jefferson Nationalists were written in as a possibility, but as a group, bringing the other parts of the canon into the present on this matter, we should look to the fact that the US does not exist in a vacuum, and that the NAU would have its own role in how things were carried out.

Now, why is this a good idea? It gives us more liberty to explore a truly expanded federation of the North American Union. The NAU flag has the potential to rally more people in both the former US and Canada than the stars and stripes. The NAU was intended to be more of a round-table: Utah has more resources than many other parts of the Union, Provisional Canada has abundant oil and natural gas, California has gold, Pasco Free State has...vibes? It all rounds out well. Also, User:BrianD at various junctures discussed the possibilities of his Republic of Texas articles open to join the NAU bloc later down the road; prospective adoptee User:Sir Ross seems to feel the same. On the Republic of Lincoln talk page, Yankovich270 wrote he would be open to the idea of the NAU and Lincoln, but not the US. If we move to make this bloc a well-oiled union as it was intended, we can explore larger growth that fits within the scope of plausibility. Another perk in this regard would be to explore additional Canadian member-states. Athabaska had been in talks of joining. Anyways, let me know what you guys think. It's good to see an uptick of discussion on matters like this on a regular basis on the Discord, it would be good to get a similar momentum going on this issue wiki-side, so everyone can participate.

Arstar (talk) 00:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I certainly missed that when I did US-related content. Things like the continuity-of-government report and American Spring have tended to give the initiative to the USA and leave the NAU looking like a relevant but not terribly important alliance in which the USA just happens to find itself. I'd be 100% on board with undoing Cascadia and maybe San Juan, and putting a pause on other statehood movements. When a creation doesn't belong to any one person, it creates the problem of a lack of coherent planning, and that's what's happened here, I think. Different people have worked on bits of this thing with no one clear vision. Right now, when we've just straightened out the place's early history and are developing some of the lands around its borders, seems like a good time to take our bearings and recalibrate. False Dmitri (talk) 17:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I generally agree. I think Cascadia’s reunification occurs on a drastically compressed timeline. It joins the NAU in 2011 and the US basically a decade later. That just, in my opinion, is a pretty quick change in heart.

Also, rejoining the US will be expensive for both the country and the nation joining. Many of these nations are impoverished and the cost may not be worthwhile.

I would be okay leaving Cimarron, the division of Minnesota from Dakota, and the expansion into Missouri. These seem to be logical developments. Cimarron has bordered Colorado and Kansas since the PUSA was founded and these states would likely be the largest trade partners. Western Minnesota has been under the control of Dakota likely since the 1980’s, splitting it off would probably be more of a political decision to “Restore America”. The region in Missouri would be fairly isolated from the east, but likely has relatively consistent interaction with Dakota.

San Juan, if we leave it more as US nationalists fleeing there from Victoria, because they don’t want to lose their American identity, I think we can justify it. But I also do not believe it should be a separate state. Rather, I think it should be administered as part of Oregon or Lincoln.

As it stands, the US taking Jefferson involved a ground invasion and occupation that I don’t think it could successfully pull off. Roadways in this region are both sparse and likely incredibly degraded. That would basically preclude armor and would result in mostly infantry and artillery. The US would probably incur heavy casualties.

Also, the NAU, CANZ, SAC, USSR, and LoN would likely all react extremely negatively towards the US acting like this. The NAU would probably see concerns within member states that were formerly American states of the US deciding to occupy them. The CANZ would probably be highly concerned about working to improve ties with a nation that immediately invades a nation it helped form and support. The SAC and USSR would likely view it as America returning to pre-Doomsday imperialism and the LoN would likely take a similar opinion.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Is anyone willing to take this on? What specific changes ought to occur? I think definitely some additions to the NAU article to restore it to prominence, along with similar additions to the USA page to make it clear that the Union drives a lot of its policy. Then it sounds like reviewing the recent history of the MSP/Jefferson, as well as Cascadia, to have them be NAU members rather than states of the US. San Juan is just weird anyway with Victoria right there, and in my opinion there needs to be some clarification around Victoria's history before any serious decision is made about the islands. False Dmitri (talk) 16:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's going to be a gradual task that everyone needs to pitch on in. I've done my part to add more content to the North American Union page, and highlighting it as an internationally present body, the first line of contact the global powers have with this region as opposed to its member-states.

You're spot on that the United States page will need to be re-worked to emphasize how Union drives policy. I added a section on NAU-SAC relations and NAU-OO relations. There's an ANZC embassy in San Rafael that as of right now is solely Californian, but I'll change that to being an OO-NAU embassy. If anyone wants to pitch in on the United States page, given the US page is everyone and no one's domain at the same time, we can slowly get it in the right direction.

MSP/Jefferson will be a tricky one. Goldwind, if you're reading this, we'll need to hear your thoughts on everything discussed here as Jefferson was your idea. I think it works best as a NAU member over becoming a state. There's room to improve on the plausibility of what happened there, because as its presented now everyone would be sanctioning the US for what they did there. The MSP was the baby of the Pacific democratic states, they would be appalled by a occupation and annexation. Orb/Trainor90 did his part to rework Okanogan Territory as an NAU project, so that's one down already. I don't think San Juan's status needs changing, its a tiny island full of people who, like Daes said, were opposed to Victorian expansion and thus became more pro-American. Likewise, Victoria's problems are minor -- Olympia, Washington's state capital joining in 2009, an over-emphasis on monarchism (although forcing Americans to participate in the British crown is hilarious) and others minute details -- but that's not really impacting the NAU issue regardless.

Arstar (talk) 19:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I still supoart jefferson as a state of the union. The MSP was a colaiton of mostly cropurt neo fuedual warlord ships that later put on the trapping of democary. The msp suffered a people uprisng do a rigged eleciton commintd with the police killing an inseard deomcoary activist. The poeple uprisign in the msp would have failed with out union support. Also the america didn't occpui occuped the msp after pacfic cival war. After war jefferson spent 10 years as a inpenet republic and went through 3 eletons and 2 presidency. During that period of indpenect jeffefson relaitons with the new united states were very postive do to the new union help the people over though the tryants and the because the new unio helped them rebuild and expand there infrasturue. The people vote overwhelming in favor of joing the union when a referudum was held in 2022 Goldwind1 (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Aren't you mischaracterizing what the MSP was? Its city-states were bad in the 90s and 00s, yes, but then it was supposed to be a success story. But what Arstar is getting at is this: the MSP/Jefferson definitely relies on its connections to ANZ and South America. Those are important relationships. Now what are people there going to think when the USA, one of the WW3 aggressors, does a military intervention there, and then a few years later annexes it. And MSP was a League of Nations member and the USA was not. So a nonmember invades, then annexes a member. That's how it will look. And both ANZ and South America will do whatever is in their power to not let that happen. False Dmitri (talk) 04:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, its a mischaracterization. Also, entire countries don't fall because a single activist was murdered by police. If that was the case, the USA would have fallen decades ago in our world. Like Ben said, the MSP was fully connected to the international community, and most of its problems had been ended by the 2000s founding.

Basically Goldwind, the "military occupation" and annexation destroys the USA's chances of being respected on the international stage, let alone trusted. They were getting modern-day good and technology years before the USA/NAU were, due to their close relationship with the Pacific nations, they arguably had a higher quality of life going into the 2010s. If we keep this in place fully as it is now, we're basically forced to explore a narrative where many abroad will think the USA is one of the bad guy nations. Arstar (talk) 07:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Just becasue The anzc and sac support the MSP dosn't mean the msp was a model democarty. T .Beside the inidcent were the activist was there were many inidcents of the msp police force made up of former hells angels. The msp asl burtally censured disent in the press. The part about the death of the avist was my idea but the rest were the ideas of my presdassor. To me the anzc and the Sac were will to look past the msp tyrancy because they want a foothold on the american west coast and because they evenaly decide to put on a sham democary. I consider the anzc and sac realtion with the msp to be simalir to the otl american zaire realtiont The otl usa has support dciatoral regaimes like steven mubto zaire during the cold war because they were anti comisnt. We contied to support muto after the cold war because he agreed to commiest democrtic trappings.Perhaps the msp article should be rewrtien so that only the sac supported the msp so they could have a west north american cost foothold to conuter balcne the anzc foot hold in the calforian republic .I orignally wanted the sac and the anzc to suport the pro democrtic rebels in the pacfic cival but someone shot down that idea. So I had the new united states help the rebles instead. IF the msp is rewrtien perhaps we could have the anzc provie help to the rebles durign the cival warGoldwind1 (talk) 16:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

An idea that's suggested has been partitioning the old MSP, which is sort of unwieldy anyway. So that the most of the coast is aligned with that Pacific world while some of the inland parts develop ties to the NAU. That inland part is what becomes Jefferson, but a smaller MSP would continue to exist. That seems fairly realistic to me. And it would allow us to explore some of the complicated motives affecting many of the different sides here. It would also be a more nuanced and complex story than the current one. False Dmitri (talk) 04:26, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I am willing to accpet a rewritte where the cavil rights party ether agreed to peaceful break up to advoid the war or they agreed to let the rebellious cities go there spearpet way when after America started turning the war in the favor of the rebels. Note that dividing the msp form Jefferson isn't as easy as giving all the coast to the msp and the inland to Jeffergson Coastal port orrford is a major Jefferson naitonsilis stronghold. In fact the Jefferson naitonalist where founded by mayor of port offord . Also the inland reading was major civaic rights strong hold. I

I still oppose a partition of Jefferson. We need to consider that the people of Jefferson would need to see a benefit from joining the USA. Jefferson, I would argue, will be one of the least “American” survivor states in the former USA. I think it is possible a substantial part of its population are from Australia or New Zealand.

The nation likely has one of the highest standards of living in the former US, as it would probably be a major waypoint for CANZ and SAC vessels in the Pacific.

Additionally, the region is arguably somewhat geographically isolated from the rest of the USA (in the TL). From what I have found on maps, most of the roads run “north-south”. US Route 101 runs from south of Eureka (San Fransisco bay area) through Crescent City, Brookings, Gold Beach, Coos Bay, Newport, and Astoria (continuing into Washington state). Interstate 5 runs a north-south route as well through Redding, Eugene, and Salem, through Portland. I only found US Route 97 that runs a rough east west route connecting the USA and Jefferson. It runs through Bend and terminates near Mount Shasta, north of Redding (roughly 65 miles apart).

Something else is, while the USA is not the APA, people in the area will recall the Crescent City Crisis and the APA withdrawing. Regardless of if they were pro or anti American at that point, there will still likely be some sour grapes.

I could see Jefferson becoming an associate member in the Oceanic Organization and the NAU, to serve as an intermediary between the Pacific and North America. But I just don’t see any compelling reason for Jefferson to reunite with the USA.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, you're definitely making good points. I was just trying to find a workable compromise, but you're right. The State of Jefferson remains hard to justify. Its main reason for being seems to be a desire to see the USA get bigger and stronger, not any analysis of the facts in-universe. Is anything more happening on this front? False Dmitri (talk) 01:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I had proposed the following for jefferson and wanted peoples input.

Instead of Jefferson taking over the entire MSP, the MSP struggles to manage the land beyond its core around Eureka.
With a growing California to its south and a rising separatist sentiment in the north we see a fracturing of the MSP.
The jefferson nationalist still break away in the north but do not subjugate the entire region as is written. Instead some clashes between MSP/Jefferson militia end in stalemate with an agreement for a referendum to be called to determine what to do with the land. Obviously the north will split off into jefferson and eventually become the state of Jefferson.
Similarly the largely pro Californian valleys to the south will join California, leaving the MSP with a smaller but more manageable region around eureka.
California will join the NAU at the behest of the SNU. Jefferson will become a state of America in 2023 as is already determined.
The MSP stays aligned to the OO as its in roads into America on the pacific coast.

This way we can preserve the lost MSP canon, keep the new jefferson workings, and expand the influence of all three powers in the region, instead of just the USA, allowing for a more dynamic and varied political landscape on the west coast with US/OO/NAU/Native/Canadia/Isolationist players all in the mix, as it so should be. Ive attached a very crude redrawing of jeffersons territory for you to discuss. Trainor90 (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Jefferson Prop — Pink - Jefferson, Green - MSP, Blue - To California

Could be a workable solution. The idea that the MSP might lose control of peripheral areas is not totally crazy... it was arguably too big for its own institutions and infrastructure anyway, and the foreign nations coming to support it would not necessarily worry about all that land in the interior. And then the USA would come in to land already abandoned by the MSP. Well, that's still not ideal, and it's definitely going to cause problems for the USA and its foreign relations. But it's certainly less extreme than the current version. The USA might be able to rationalize its actions and maintain some kind of relationship with the LoN and major world powers. Nevertheless: the excessive aggrandizement of the USA needs to be scaled back in other ways, too. The setting is definitely turning into a kind of wank of the United States, and it's time to correct course. False Dmitri (talk) 14:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a reasonable path forward. I agree with False Dimitri, I think the US is expanding far too rapidly and we either need to scale this back or the country needs to face repercussions. Lakotah and Deseret will likely take this aggressive expansion with concern due to them composing former US states and likely having some part of the population supporting reunification. The world powers around the Pacific Rim will likely be concerned that American revanchism is returning and would possibly intervene to “stem American expansionism”. This could also cause the American Alliance to see growth or become more confrontational with t he USA. I think there will be major debate within the NAU, with representatives from Canada, Deseret, Lakotah, Dinetah, etc. claiming the organization is a front for American imperialism. It could result in the NAU moving its headquarters outside the USA.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The Italy Issues, Part 2[]

Italy is a Fundamental Issue because (1) it's so central to a number of 83dd storylines and (2) work done over the last few years has been messy and inconsistent, requiring a concerted cleanup effort from multiple people. I archived the old discussion because it got long, and because we're at a natural turning point in the work. Here's where it all stands.

✔ Work on Sicily and the south is finished.
✔ The Second Sicily War is more or less finished but could use looking over.
✔ The War of the Alboran Sea also needs to be checked. Alessio has proposed a detailed alternative suggestion that has not yet been ruled out, and I suspect the best outcome will be to selectively incorporate content from there.
✔ Genoa remains in a messy, inconsistent state and probably should be returned to the way it was, since it was never adopted fairly nor made subject to a real review (though I still feel strongly that the royalist government is ASB).
✔ Sardinia is also messy and inconsistent and needs to be consistent with Sicily.
The Piedmontese Federation has never made it past the proposal stage. If it is to become canon, it will require some changes.
The Italian Federation is a new proposal written to correspond with this ongoing work.

False Dmitri (talk) 12:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

The updates are pretty much complete. I also added to Malta-Lampedusa-Corridor (1983: Doomsday), which is covered by this review. The last two things on that list are new proposals rather than reviews or changes. I think we can put this insane chapter behind us very soon. False Dmitri (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Canadian Spring[]

For the last few years several users have asked why the reunification plot-line between the Canadian Remainder Provinces and Canadian Remainder Government had been abandoned. With a timeline that has suffered many contrived reunifications, this is not one of them, with the only distance between their current borders being a a 5 hour, 300 mile drive through a very lightly populated area. While the final story is TBD, consensus is near unanimous now that we will be seeing a greater degree of re-integration, starting with (at the very least) Ontario's statelets and the CRP, followed by completion of the Trans-Canadian Railroad (which requires far less work than previously thought, with the majority of it being built over surviving railroad infrastructure. The reunification of East and West Canada still has many deals to iron out and may not even be something thats carried out for a little while longer, but the plot will move forward.

This is ostensibly not a Review but rather the culmination of a slow burning plot line that has been in the works for over 15 years, and an attempt at resurrection what was once one of the most active regions in the timeline. There are a lot of brand new page ideas being proposed, previously glossed over Canadian cities such as to Sherbrooke joining the ranks of the Northern townships, despotic island outposts in the St. Lawrence River, First Nation city-states outside of both Canada and Saguenay's reach and additional fleshed out characters in the Saguenay War to join our favorite raiders.

Given how (both) Canada(s) came out of World War III a couple hairs better than the US, it's exciting to round out what will arguably be the more successful nation for decades to come. Everyone share your ideas on anything you think your favorite Canadian survivor states have been up to since the last time they were updated. Arstar (talk) 01:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS[]

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

Republic of Texas (1983: Doomsday)[]

I am going to try to make an up-to-date version of the Republic of Texas that is consistent with lore from this decade and that puts more thought into the post-Doomsday history. Currently, the Republic of Texas is all over the place and has very inconsistent information. Another issue is the extreme length of the article and the bizarre choice of what to include in it. I plan on trying to completely rework it while also trying to use as much as I can from the old article. I want to keep as much of the former writer's hard work, but there are glaring issues that need to be changed (such as Laredo existing still). My WIP: Grand Republic of Texas (1983: Doomsday) (Proposal) Sir Ross (talk) 23:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with Ross adopting this under the sole condition that the name stays the same, and myself and the community retain a seat at the table for mapping out the foreign relations. Arstar (talk) 22:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Monterey Lawless Zone[]

Hello everyone, I was considering adopting the Monterey page in order to rewrite it. I wanted to keep the same core events/characteristics but elaborate how the post-Doomsday era leads into its status as a buffer zone between two states, as well as bring up to speed post-occupation by Chumash in 2016. I thought I could offer some insight, as a resident of the Central Coast myself. A little bit has been mentioned about its annexation but nothing in detail. Particularly, I figured it would be incorporated as a sort of frontier territory, eventually being redeveloped throughout the years. This might have effects on the Chumash page, not sure how to go about that. SashaVolko (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

South Carolina (1983: Doomsday)[]

I began this process last month, but I have adopted SC and will be giving it the same treatment I've given my NC article (which itself is seeing some love since I managed to get the history caught up, focused on other things, and lo and behold I have to bring it current again). I want to explore the independent states as they existed up until 2010ish. Like NC, there seems to be one large power with maybe one or two small states on the coast of some import. What happens with the Piedmont Republic - which I have also formally adopted - is quite frankly TBD. I would prefer to avoid writing with some predetermined goal in mind. However, I also find it unlikely for the borders of these post-DD states to stay stagnant. In NC, Blue Ridge has unified the state by 2020. It will renames itself the State of Carolina to reflect this. I did see South discussing a potential union between Blue Ridge and Piedmont down the road and I wonder if that would have happened by 2024. Again, trying to avoid writing towards some outcome so the history is a bit more organic.

As a preliminary note, I did determine we're missing some targets, namely Shaw AFB, which I'll be adding to the list and map if there are no objections.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 17:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)