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Great British Civil War

I've made a page for the ongoing civil war in Great Britain that happened after Edward Poll was crowned Emperor of the English. Could anyone help with it please? Not sure how the numbers for a realistic army for each side would be. Thanks so much! MrWoodward (talk) 12:29, September 17, 2020 (UTC)

Fourth english civil war is a bit of mouthful, no? Maybe the British Civil War would sound better? Plus there hasn't ever been a British civil war, while there have been 3 English ones. Just saying.

Nay Mate Woody (talk) 17:51, September 17, 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, British civil war sounds better. Even the Great British Civil War sounds even more awesome and fitting for the situation.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 21:15, September 27, 2020 (UTC)

The problem with this page is that nobody of the users who want to do this control any of the countries. And even then, the sides of the civil war seem wholly and totally unorganized and outright uncanonical.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:05, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

I like Great British Civil War, it sounds a lot better. Most of the events pre-civil war have already been discussed many months ago on this talk page and nobody who was still writing for 1983: Doomsday had a big problem with anything, and when there was a problem we discussed it here and fixed errors or elements many didn't like. If you do have ideas or points that you would like to introduce feel free to discuss them and we'll see how we can come to a joint agreement. Die dulci fruere! MrWoodward (talk) 10:48, October 2, 2020 (UTC)

  • It's a goof idea, but it must match lore and cannon.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 18:11, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

United States Activity

Any plans to update the US and individual state articles? 2020ckeevert (talk) 01:14, July 16, 2020 (UTC)

Depends, what do you mean by that?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 21:15, September 27, 2020 (UTC)

If anyone wants to adopt the US, sure, but no editing without ownership or expressed permission by the owner.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:06, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

GryffindorKrypton asked to adopt the USA on its talk page. But this country has from the start been more of a group effort than an individual one. For recent history of the USA, I think the best thing will be to propose things and discuss them as a whole group. For example, they're having an election this November, just like we are here in our timeline. The events surrounding that are a good opportunity to get caught up on other pieces of recent history. Benkarnell (talk) 14:53, October 5, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Benkarnell, I think we should work to update the USA, NAU (and member states) as well as some of the other large players in North America (Mexico, Canada, Texas, Kentucky, Virginia, Superior, Vermont, etc.). Daeseunglim (talk) 03:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Edward Poll

Hello everyone! A question for everyone still active on 1983: Doomsday.

Regarding the situation of Edward Poll and his statement made at the OBN meeting. What do we think should happen? I wanted to write something but I want to know what the whole community thinks:

Edward Poll referred to himself in his speech as the "Imperator who will lead the way to a future reunified England", and the media claims it was an accident, that he was trying to say "leader" (which would be Dux) by using a sophisticated Latin word which supposedly came out wrong; while conspiracy theorists believe he was, in reality, subtly proclaiming himself "Emperor of the English".

Do you think he will actually give himself that title instead of it being a mere slip of the tongue? Would he maybe crown himself like Charlemagne? Would he have the support of the common people across the English survivor states with their own independent governments both monarchical and republican? Would he attempt to challenge King Andrew's legitimacy to the throne of England, and therefore provoke a massive dispute? Would Edward Poll become the next strongman? And most importantly... '''Could he eventually reunify England?

Please leave your thoughts! Let's discuss the future of England in 1983: Doomsday!

Nay Mate Woody (talk) 14:41, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

Love it! But I don't think he should be an actual monarch. Here's what I propose, you can all tell me what you think:

For his peacekeeping triumphs not only heading the Organization of British nations but also personally leading its army into battle suffocating insurrections like the one in Leicestershire republic, the committee grants him the honorary title of Imperator anglorum (as a nod to Poll's "slip of the tongue" as you said). Poll will have himself crowned Emperor of the Angles in a low budget coronation in an old and dilapidated sports hall using a cheap knock-off of St Edwards crown. HOWEVER, he will insist that he is not a monarch or a sovereign, he is only the president of the OBN (a peacekeeping organization, not a state or entity). Its like Charlemagne-ish, as you said. So far it's only an honorific title.

However. After a couple of months, here's where things start to get weird. Poll would actually start to take it seriously, and would even send King Andrew a formal letter or telegram telling him (to put it informally, with balls of steel) that his rule over the English people is illegitimate because of the Commonwealth’s lack of presence for many decades. “You may be the legitimate sovereign of the British Union and head of the Commonwealth, but you are not the rightful sovereign of England”. This would create an enormous divide among the entire British population worldwide between those who supported the head of the House of Windsor and son of the Queen and those in Great Britain who supported an English Emperor chosen by the people of their homeland. What do you think?

FiteOwl (talk) 12:26, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic!!! I'm all for it. When I first read it I googled him and Poll isnt a noble or a royal in any way at all. However, reading what is written about him in this timeline, he is:

  1. The head of an organization which has done a fantastic job of uniting and maintaining the friendship between the successor states.
  2. An excellent military leader (having personally lead battles himself both defending the member states of the OBN and suffocating separatist movements) and a super charismatic politician.
  3. A man who has the support of the people. The common people of (whats left of) England.

The English people have chosen him as their Charlemagne. Their honorary "emperor". Strength to Edward Poll, Emperor of the Angles!!!

Zukushaman (talk) 19:10, March 5, 2020 (UTC)

I have just been discussing this topic with SigmaHero045 and we have both agreed that it would absolutely lead to a civil war in Old Britain, because Cleveland, for example, is ruled by Zara Tindall who is, in essence, a Windsor and a close relative of King Andrew. She would 100% side with her uncle Andrew. In the event of a civil war, may I also point out that the Windsors would be victorious in every way because of the popular support and the longing for a UNITED Kingdom again like the good old days. The United Kingdom of England and South Africa.

If this civil war happens, this is how I believe the factions would be:

Windsors Pro-independence successor states Pollists

New Britain Flag 3.png New Britain

Cleveland flag.jpg Cleveland

Northumberland flag.gif Northumberland

New scotland flag.jpg Southern Scotland

83DD-DuchyLancasterFlag3.png Duchy of Lancaster

Democratic Republic of Lindsey

Newolland flag 2011.jpg Newolland

Woodbridgeflag3.png Woodbridge

Isle of Wight Council Flag.svg Southern England

158px-Derbyshire flag svg.png Matlock

83orgbritnatflagprop.png OBN Supreme Council

Financial support:

Flag of Norfolk.svg Norfolk

Financial support:

FlagOfEssex.PNG Essex

Do you all agree?

MrWoodward (talk) 19:32, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

We did agree that Poll wouldn't want to be an actual monarch though. His ideal plan is this: the successor states of Old Britain would be like the Holy Roman Empire: a decentralized union of independent territories with their own governments and economies who would be members of an alliance (the OBN) under the rule of the Imperator Anglorum: Poll. Whether it is an elected position or a hereditary one, you decide what it is.

Also, in this possible civil war. Wouldn't Woodbridge be supporting Poll? From what I gathered from the OBN page, Edward Poll's leadership shared a lot of its views with the government of Woodbridge, and under him the OBN did nearly everything that Woodbridge proposed. If I were in that situation and if I were the Prime Minister of Woodbridge I would be super happy! I'd absolutely support the Pollist faction at least financially.

FiteOwl (talk) 21:47, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

I actually said Woodbridge would be supporting Poll. I'm the actual one behind the idea of this civil war (but credit for him making a good looking template illustrating it and approving the idea and pitching it here because I didn't have time yesterday). Following our disscussions, he made this thing with quite a few changes from my pitch (there's a non officialy canon country in there when I just asked him what Norfolk actually was because of confusion). Here, I'll post all my arguments regarding this, spoiler alert: Having Poll as a popularly beloved choosed monarch for England is bogus in terms of realism (saying otherwise is rejecting a lot of cultural and social context into the mix).

"Edward Polls would NOT be even a somewhat popularly approved as a monarch. Simply because of a deep cultural attachment to nobility and aristocracy in the English culture (just look at the House of Lords) and I don't think Polls have noble heritage. It would be more HIS action rather than a divise but somewhat popular decision. Many dioceses still recognize Andrew as their leader (Anglican church). In tradition, the royal is the head of state because of being the head to the church, A civilian couldn't fill that role with no widespread support outside of a very few ultranationalists. There's a reason why the post-DD states are mostly [correction: many of them are] monarchies by actual nobility. After a conflict like the Leicester war, they want comfort, they want to get closer to the pre-DD England. Long history of England before DD proves the affection and importance the monarchs [families] have there. Imagine how fueled the popular disscussion in New Britain would be, very nationalistic (the good non-chauvinist kind) ideas of "going back to the old country" would surge in approval [in face of a betrayal of english codes]. The fact that they left Old Britain kinda becomes a regret in public conscience (not out of hate towards Africans or South Africa but of having lost something fondamental to who they are) and in politicians circles. It's a trigger moment (kinda like the brexit moment in our timeline ;) ) that complety changes public perspective. Look at King Andrew's visits in the early 2010s in Old Britain: He's still beloved by many MANY people and actually inconsciously shows an attachment for the monarch towards the old country. Cleveland is lead by a relative of Andrew, how would she react to such a thing in plus of the popular hate? Would she invite Andrew to annex Cleveland in resistance to such takeover of power? To reunite England and New Britain? A civil war WOULD broke out (see the importance of cultural and sociological factors in history?) and by popular support and better military, the Windsors WOULD win. It just makes more sense and would be a torrific way of ending the 2010s political turmoil in the region. New Britain rebecoming the United Kingdom...but the United Kingdom of England and South Africa (as an equal constituent country)."

"people love Poll as a new prime minister of some sort, a return to normalcy in terms of civilian power. But for him to pervert the codes of the royalty sacred to english culture will NOT go well for him. It's one thing to be the next de facto prime minister of England, it's another thing to pretend to be its monarch without royal blood who'll be the head of the influencial anglican church that mostly recognize Andrew as the king. This would be considered an attack in times of instability to the english identity following a full decade of war, thing that Andrew and his relatives on the old Britain would definitely be attached to (or will be attached again under pressures from fired up nationalism). The civilian populace of Old Britain and New Britain clearly realize right now the momentum to reunite the kingdom as it used to be before DD that's at their doorstep (and how important tradition is important in restoring the English national culture and attachment). Also, Cleveland and Northumbria would definitely be on the Windsors side because of their monarchs being relatives to Andrew who are also attacked in their legitimacy by Poll's power fever and who whould benefit by being under an Andrew-led kingdom.

It would play out like this I think : Woodbridge, Newolland (because of a non noble monarch), southern England (popular local anti-monarchy sentiments) and Matlock (because of their bad humans right records, almost fascist governemnt and crooks in charge that would lose power and governement under a democratic human rights respectful England) vs New Britain, Cleveland, Northumbria, Southern Scotland (dependency upon Northumbria and popular love for the southern neighbour), Lancaster (because of the legacy of the Lord-Lieutenant), Westmorland (protectorate of Lancaster) and Lindsey (not for that long because they re litteraly surrendered by Newolland, you see how a conflict would end between the two). Essex would just stay neutral because of their isolationist attitude. The New London part of the Celtic Alliance would discretly with partisans of the Windsors inside the union, contrary to the neutral stance of the Union itself, financially support the Windsors side. I can't really say much about Norfolk and West Suffolk because I can't really grasp who they are. Also, is the Ipswich Incident still going on? If so, that would be a divise factor against the pollists. Both sides would try to win popular favor in the lands that are under no one's control in Britain since Doomsday (the big light beige section between the celtics and the other british nations). These stateless communities would see in Andrew a saviour coming back with the hope of having things as they used to be before 1984 (how could the Pollists convince people that weren't under the OBN control that this random dude no one there heard from can be a safe monarch when the windsor king is there?). A non-heavily opposed Edward Poll is unrealistic, the post-doomsday world is no excuse to do things that makes no sense (aka 1989 War timeline)."

There are my arguments and the original, realistic pitch for the civil war that mirrors the instability of Brexit in our TL. Also there's a term for loosely centralized unified state: a confederation. The technology and communications status in 2020 does however permit a more unified centralized state right now. Just saying.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:35, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

First, we must be clear about the context leading to such a war (because we must remember: this is a very VERY major turn of events in the course of England's history here). This is the first large-scale war in a long time and thus, one where every details is thrillingly interesting and important. And this is where a first problem comes in: the status of Norfolk. In such a large-scale where every single line of detail in the context that leads to it is important, having Norfolk non canon would mean that after creating the whole war thing in all captivating way with twists and small realistic details we'd have to rewrite it all over again to include Norfolk role in influencing what came after it (even if it's minimal, the butterfly effect). I think Norfolk must be 1) canon 2) complete with its professionaly made and believable different history, culture and place in the region (altough brief because the TBA seems, according to its very small history, to have annexed it very early on). And for that we need to do the same process that was used in the worldbuilding of the other countries in Great Britain: taking the proper time and attention to realism and detail in accordance with the creator of the country's article will and creating as a result a captivating part of the world for readers. Because every single detail, every line of defense can come back later as an advantage or disadvantage in such a war (also the social impact all this would have). I don't think it will be long though (but proper authorizations must be done and it must not create contradictions with other articles, no matter obscure).

Now as for the conflict itself. I'll fix the template for it to show my vision so see what you think. The OBN is supported by Newolland, Woodbridge and Southern England because of either anti-Windsors misunderstandings that are prevalant in those parts of ex-England or the will of the monarchy of Newolland to support a unification where it could keep its privileges in a legitimization of their power (where one does not need aristocratic lineage to be a aristocrat, aristocrat that can even be a pretendant to the whole throne under such a system). In other words, to be able to have concessions of power in a England unified under Poll that would fit with their worldview. Matlock is a third side who's kinda obligated to help the pollists versus the biggest threat of the Windsow unionists to their fascist crual rule that doesn't respect human dignity, it's still a third side however. Essex governement is neutral officially because it just want to be its own thing and be left alone outside of the whole unifying process. That doesn't mean there's private individual and under-the-rug military and especially financial support from private individuals there or in the Celtic Union or anywhere else.

Windsors Pollists Rogue states Neutral

New Britain Flag 3.png New Britain

Cleveland flag.jpg Cleveland

Northumberland flag.gif Northumberland

New scotland flag.jpg Southern Scotland

83DD-DuchyLancasterFlag3.png Duchy of Lancaster

Democratic Republic of Lindsey

Flag of South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands.svg South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands

83orgbritnatflagprop.png OBN Supreme Council

Newolland flag 2011.jpg Newolland

Woodbridgeflag3.png Woodbridge

Isle of Wight Council Flag.svg Southern England

158px-Derbyshire flag svg.png Matlock

Various small raiders groups

Flag BerthelierInterceltic.jpg Celtic Alliance (officially, unaware of New London's actions)

FlagOfEssex.PNG Essex (officially)

800px-Flag of Europe.svg.png ADC

Financial support:

Flag BerthelierInterceltic.jpg Celtic Alliance pro-Windsor New London citizens and local government (secretly)

Financial support:

FlagOfEssex.PNG Essex (secretly)

And for the flag of such a unified England, southern Scotland and South Africa under King Andrew, I've got two suggestions even if I preffer personally the first one. Wich one is the best:

Great Britain Reunited flag proposal 2.png


Great Britain Reunited flag proposal 1.png

Pleased to hear your arguments.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:32, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I really like where this is all heading. So just to clear it up: the end goal for the Pollists is to have Edward Poll as Emperor of the English people but still respecting the other monarchies of the successor states, right? Holy roman empire vibes here. Obviously they will lose this war but still its a fun idea.

On the subject of territorial subdivision after the end of the British civil war, will the former successor states become "shires"/counties like they used to be? (Leicestershire being the example in my head right now because of the turbulent episode it has recently experienced and the short-lived communist republic it was under)? Will they be provinces (like for example the Province of Newolland, the Province of Cleveland), this way somewhat respecting their previous autonomy? 

And on the subject of the flags, I really really like the second flag. Its cool it respects the African tribes of South Africa incorporating that gold on the St Andrew's Cross.

Finally the UK can unite again, its time.

Zukushaman (talk) 12:12, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Here's how the war should start: the football stadium coronation. I think that's a great idea by FiteOwl which is controversial enough to grab the Windsors attention and spark outcry everywhere. Cleveland and Northumberland will tell New Britain about it, Andrew I will answer with basically "Yes let's sort this out ASAP this is madness. Assemble the vehicles. We're heading back to Old Britain we're taking it back". That's when everything kicks off. Opinions? Hong Xiuquan (talk) 14:14, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. I'm for it. It's crazy enough to start a war, and we're looking for a cause so that could be a factor. MrWoodward (talk) 16:53, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

West Suffolk and Babergh

West Norfolk and West Suffolk were territories that were controlled by the TBA but were succesfully regained by Woodbridge and Newolland (West Norfolk) and Woodbridge and Essex (West Suffolk). To begin with the areas were jointly run by the successful nations but over time they were divided vetween them. West Suffolk consisted of the OTL districts of West Suffolk and Barbergh. Babergh is now part of Essex and West Suffolk belongs to Woodbridge

--Verence71 (talk) 17:27, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

Ok the Norfolk page definitely needs to be corrected then. I agree with the idea of having the war start with the football stadium coronation, that will be the last straw that starts the war, that brings King Andrew over from New Britain back to the isle. MrWoodward (talk) 16:49, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

I've made a start on that

Verence71 (talk) 17:16, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

Ok I see good progress here. Now in what would consist this "stadium coronation"? Why would it take place here? What led to Poll and his supporters wanting deciding to it exactly this way? Perhaps they thought about it because of showing to the public and in television channels a sense of scale and prestige and popular support in order to seduce the public? Show them how he can gather people around him (and flattering his ego about having a large crow to love him), show them the incredible emotions of being part of large unified crowd not seen since the 26th of september 1983 (first time for many) that would overwhelm them in wanting more of that (therefore wanting more of HIM) of having the sensation of him being capable of doing things greater and more ambitious than anything before. Also, since being in a stadium, a certain populist entertainment feel to them. Except.....the galvanisation of the crowd...wouldn't exactly go the way they thought it would go. In a crucial miscalculation proper to history with a capital H, this is how I imagine it would go (warning, it is very long):

Everything started on the 17th of december 2019 at Woodbridge in a meeting between premier Christopher Mole and Edward Poll. The region of England just came back from a terrific war against the Republic of Leicester in October and Newolland assisted by the OBN (if I'm correct) and military forces from all England are still stationned there, helping rebuilding the place and stopping local protests. Mole said to Poll that the situation made him realize something and that he invited Poll to discuss the future of England. Mole said that he feared instability and insurrection that Britain knew for the past decade would continue endlessly to happen unless, he said, the whole England is reunited under one banner again. That's something that Poll would say he actually is agreeing with before explaining that he thought about the idea for a long time and came to the conclusion that it would be the inevitable next step and a logical idea that would have widespread support among the english people (especially in the older generations). That's where Mole would interrupt him, saying that's where he partially disagrees with him. He says that a united republican England would have the same problems as the current mosaic of countries: a lack of centralized popular vision that would uplift the english people into healing the scars of Doomsday, uplift the people into feeling again a patriotic proudness in their country that would let them regain and surpass the quality of life and general ambition that was present before the fateful 1983 day. Into feeling...complete inside and confident in the future. Poll, confused and intrigued, would ask what did he thought was missing in his idea? He replied: a monarch, an english monarch that would restore the aristocracy integral cultural part in England. After Poll asked in shock if he suggested to let the Windsors restore the integral pre-DD english monarchy knowing the popular opposition in the southern England, Mole responded that he wanted HIM to be monarch. He laughed, thinking it was a joke. However, as he realized Mole was serious about this, things got heated up. After a heated argument and objection from Poll, Mole reportedly (according to local legend after one maid testified later after the war about how all this mess started) started convinced him with a metaphor about his coffee he was about to drink: he said that a republican England would be like his current black coffee, hot and crude, lost in violence without a unifying vision, and (after putting some milk into his coffee) would say a monarch-led England would be coffee with fresh milk, pacified, unified, civilised, clarified enough to see a future, delicious enough to drink. "And especially not spoiled with age like the Windsors are", he add as he drank it. Still unconvinced, he politely left the meeting as the idea continued however to be in his mind. This event is known by later historians, named after popular naming of the event, as the december coffee meeting.

After a month of lobbying from Mole to make Poll accept the role of king of England and Scotland by getting secret endorsments from politicians across the south-east half of England (including a private endorsement by the royals of Newolland who foresee that the reunification of England is inevitable and that one led by the Windsors would deligitimize their power when one by Poll could be benefitial for them, giving them even the possibility of higher power and even possibility to be king/queen of the entire England), Poll finally gives in to their arguments and now believe he's the right man to be king: political experience, popular love across all countries of England for his leading role in the OBN and against the TBA/Sons de Montford that brought stability and security to the region, (perceived) popular demand for a renewed and less traditional monarchy where non noble could be monarchs, as well as him being anglican (since being king of England is being king of the church). And, doing a press conference in a OBN event, he said his famous quote that ended the event, with the goal of accustoming the public over the idea of him a monarch without directly affirming it, this way : "We, british nations, are the guides to a reunified England and I'll be the Imperātor anglōrum who will lead the way". This is when things get really sour, preluding the war to come.

With all the buzz in the medias about this quote possibly being a hint about his intentions to become monarch, conflict starts occuring at the OBN: many criticise Poll on how they weren't consulted for such a blunt, radical and out-of-nowhere decision (the buildup having been carefully made by Pollists so they didn't reach potential non-Pollists ears). Debate and infighting ensues as Poll denies wanting to be emperor (promises of high glorified power having corrupted his honesty). The word spread like wildfire in all of the British Isles population and in rare newspapers that have the means to talk about international issues around the world, making it a worlwide heated debate. By the day after the speech, the news reaches New Britain's population and reignite there the debate about the restauration of the monarchy. Many (as I said) now start to feel that they left something behind on who they are by leaving Old Britain decades ago.

Public figures in New and Old Britain starts announcing their views on the subject. King Andrew sure received before the speech a telegram of Poll stating his intentions but despite his worries about how Old Britain situation could go dire in the near future and not being sure on how to tackle this as he can't believe this, his inner circle convince him to keep it secret from the government and population in order to avoid sending oil into the fire that could still be countained. Public figures and governments in Old Britain starts taking positions on the issue, many in Newolland, Southern England and Woodbridge make annoucements stating they'd support Edward Poll as king if he reunified England, accompanied by anti-Windsor propaganda labelling them as traitors and cowards that gave up their country unlike Poll who'll make Britain turn the page on the depressive effects of DD. On the contrary, Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster have quite the opposite opinion, calling on Poll to cease his power game for a power he was never prepared for nor have the heritage to obtain, for the greater good of England. Many discussions occur in the Windsor royal family as this directly concern them: should they reunify England under their family once more? King Andrew hesitate to answer calls to war of reunification as such act of attack would be against his and his country's values of democratic dignity and anti-warmongering stance. He also quite deeply regret the wars of expensions in South Africa of the 2000s on the values and image of New Britain with all the victims it made, he doesn't want to betray his ideals another time. Northumbria and Cleveland united royal family agreed to let go of their projects to form the independant kingdom of Albion and to back Andrew if he decided to reunifiy England under his banner, viewing this as the better choice for the citizens of Britain they love to let their personal interests out of the question for the greater good of England. On the third day after the speech, things can't go back, Poll is thirsty for power and admiration and nobility and the ends will justify the means from now on for him.

On a emergency council session in the OBN, he steps up amoung the criticism from what will become Windsorists nations in the war and officialy declares that he will, in fact, be the king of England, explaining it is a logical choice for a logical step forward and criticising (albeit hypocritically) the representatives of Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster for favouring their monarchs familial "little privileges of the middle ages" over "the proud english people". When a representative of Woodbridge (one that wasn't considered pollist enough to be made a partisan of Poll before his speech) standed to denounce Poll as doing a coup d'état against the British nation herself and her democratic dignity, he was forcibly put back into his chair by other pro-Poll representatives telling him to "shut up baboon lover(racist slur against New Britain's friendly attitude towards its africanization of British culture), you don't know what you're talking about" before harassing him. A woman representing Lancaster decided it was enough and announced she boycotted the session. Poll and his crew, having already a plan for such a case beforehand, announced that it wasn't a choice of wether they approved his plan or not: it was an order, as armed soldiers that pled allegiance to Poll blocked the exits. He demand they allow him to become the official de jure and de facto king of England as their respective countries politicians will be rewarded with great wealth and power over their country under his Decentralized Kingdom of Great Britain model....if they want to exit this room that is. Southern England, Newolland, Essex and Woodbridge immediately and proudly (their governments having made a deal agreeing behind closed doors that they recognize Poll as king of their country if they could maintain power over local issues) announce they accord the full right for Edward Poll to be the king of their country while others say they officialy cut ties with the OBN and the Pro-Poll countries. Since they abandonned their power in this decision, Poll tell the soldiers to let them go. Meanwhile, in New Britain, the word is out long enough that politicians demand the king to declare war on Poll and restore the British nation as protests in favour of the reunification of New Britain and Old Britain are widespread and many people in a social movement nolstagically retell publically the great military and cultural exploits of the old United Kingdom. Even africans start feeling they could be a part of this reunified Britain as equal non second-class citizens (thanks to the record of New Britain of making them welcomed in its culture). Andrew still refuses to invade even as he receive messages from his relatives in Old Britain of the situation as they officially cut ties with OBN countries and Poll, begging him to stand against his usurper.

Poll announce after to all the englishmen and women to gather together tommorow at the stadium (wich one? you decide guys if you're still reading this), with big televisions and radio channels being there to transmit the event. He says that this day he'll reveal the commonly agreed, by all countries of England, monarch for all of England; all of England will soon in a historical event be reunited once more for a new golden age free from the past. Media and people, unaware of the official unethical backing of Poll by certain countries, joyfully celebrate and wild speculations arise about who the monarch could be. Andrew? Zara? Linda Harrison? George? A vocal group demand Edward Poll as the monarch in the south of the country, backed by several lobbied medias there while certain medias in the north fear that Poll could become the monarch if his speech wasn't actually a metaphor and he wanted to become king. Then, the speech of Poll occured, announcing live that he was "choosen" as the new king of England, telling his great works on post-DD Britain contrary to the "pesky cowards that are the Windsors" and how he'll unite in a confederate new way the country against the Celtic Union. With him as king on top of the strong local governments that'll deal with local justice, application of law, taxes, services and administration while he'll solely oversees all the good going of the country in non-domestic affairs: foreign policy, education, legislation, executive power and military. 

After he end his speech and said "Long live the king! God bless the king!" expecting generous applauding and approval, he received instead omnious oppressive silence from the crowd. Then, clashing voices of celebration and hostility rise in a cacophony. The passions rise up, two sides form, verbal disputes erupt between them until violence follows. A large-scale violent mass riot erupts, as people flee the scene screaming while others fall down the steps to their death or die by being beated up or stomped to death. A group of people peacefully marches towards Edward Poll, demanding to come back on his decision and to tell his supporters to stop fighting followed by another who wants to attack him. Fearing for his life, he orders his soldiers to come shoot them all at sight. The rest, with the deadly fighting in the stadium, leaves the rest of the world with the shocking sight of the brutal massacre of peaceful protesters live on TV/radio. Edward Poll flees the scene as the supportive governments declare their full sovereignty to be over (with the exception of Essex who made an agreement to help Poll in exchange of independence) and that they'll apply wartime measures, controlling temporarily all the media (censuring on time the bloodshed of the stadium declaration) and abolishing parliaments as police patrols the streets under the orders of Poll surogates. Violent protests shake these countries as Pollists people helped by the military and police crush down dissent. Cleveland, Southern Scotland, Northumbria, Lancaster, Westmoreland declare war on the Pollist countries in reprisals as popular support for war explodes under the disgust of the new king's actions. Andrew have enough and, in an emergency session of parliament, backed by popular support from politicians and civilians, declares war on Edward Poll for violating human dignity and democracy, conscription is voted. 

That's a good idea on how I see the war starting, I know it's LONG (worked on this all day Lol). I'm proud of that.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. You made it sound truly shocking and definitely something that could be the cause of a war. As for the stadium, possibly the one in Kings Lynn? Anyway, you have my vote of support. Keep up the brilliant work! MrWoodward (talk) 13:32, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean The Walks??


Verence71 (talk) 17:58, April 4, 2020 (UTC)]

Nah mate you need an indoor sports hall. A covered stadium. FiteOwl (talk) 19:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

The best I can think of is the Sir David Wallace Sports Hall at the University of Loughborough although in this timeline it may be called something different


Verence71 (talk) 12:46, April 5, 2020 (UTC)]

Cool. That'll be fine. Loughborough is alright because it was the temporary capital of the Republic of Leicester until the OBN came in and shut the whole thing down. I approve. MrWoodward (talk) 14:30, April 5, 2020 (UTC)

So as I understand it alhough the governments of Woodbridge, Essex, Newolland and Southern England are backing Poll but not everyone within those nations are?? Is it possible therefore that when the war breaks out there are some forces in those states that will openly declare for the Windsors??

What form of government will England have after the war?? 

Verence71 (talk) 13:41, April 6, 2020 (UTC)

You're right Verence. I'd estimate a 60% for-40% against ratio in these countries. The majority of dioceses, even in those places, still recognize Andrew as the rightful head of the anglican church (and therefore head of the English kingdom). They'd definitely be part of a dissent against the regime of Edward Poll (think like the resistance of the catholic church against the authoritarian regimes of Argentina in the 80s and in the Phillippines now) and Poll and his now puppet-once sovereign ministers would make sure to try to crack down on them. Violent protests erupted initially against such an apparent coup and takeovers over their once sovereign country, but the army, police and Pollist radicals of counter protests silenced them down. Those persecuted includes: sovereigntists that want their post-DD country to not be part of this England, Abolitionists that refuses to be again under a monarch (particularly present in Southern England, don't ask me why) as well as Windsorists (clearly seeing that the Windsor would maintain democracy and traditionnal nobility in England), anti-Poll members of clergy, Communists, Anarchists, Pacifists and Intellectuals (who clearly see that under the Poll regime, the rule of law would be over, with the local governments having immense power to inforce without resistance any order of an absolute monarch). Resistance cells form against Poll's England akin to French resistance during WW2. 

I think it would be logical with such arguments that there would be forces in those countries that openly are against Poll but the initial, carefully crafted to happen, impulsive pro-Poll reactions and arrests by the forces of order would quickly silence/censor them or push them to be more secretive and undercover. That momentum build before the takeover was a exploit, taking extra care for the word to only spread in favourable ears and to discretly take control of the local media to gently push the general narrative in favour of Poll (by stating the need for a potential monarch in order to stabilize the country, valuing his past actions, playing on the fears of people that would be best to benefit the cause, trashing the Windsors etc.). 

For a post-war government for England, I think a pre-DD governement would be best (and that's fitting with the promise of the Windsors side: bringing England back to where it left of and even, with the New Britain experience, correct its flaws). It would be a parilamentary system with a house of commons and a house of lords (a good thank you gift to the type of aristocrats that supported Andrew) with the king of Great Britain (since it includes Southern Scotland) having a symbolic role. Except of having England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as constituant countries, it would be England, Scotland and South Africa. Overseas territories would nominate a deputy to represent them in the British parliament. Altough frankly I think it's a bit soon to decide that since that war would probably only end in 2022-2023 and we're just in 2020. 

Also is the Ipswich conflict still going on? The invasion of the Isle of Eels? Or were they forgotten before they actually ended?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:19, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Oh they are both over long ago.  The end of the Ipswich Incident was that Woodbridge took control of Ipswich from the gangs/clans that were controlling it at the time.  Political and military corruption was discovered in the aftermath which led to the governing Conservative Party almost losing their majority in parliament in the General Election that took place the following month.

The Invasion of the Isle of Eels was over by the end of July 2011

Verence71 (talk) 09:30, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Yes the end of this is that the UK will finally be reborn (ish), with its pre-DD parliamentary government and the Windsors back on their throne. Poll would be arrested and put in custody (where you can decide), along with the rest of his closest people. What about the parliaments of Newolland and Woodbridge? Would their MP's be integrated into the new UK House of Commons? And as for the Ipswich Incident, it needs urgent updating.

MrWoodward (talk) 12:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

I've just updated the infobox on the Ipswich Incident which is a start


Verence71 (talk) 12:58, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]

The peace talks, the dismantling of Emperor Edward Poll's plot and the negotiations about the reunification of the UK would all be settled in the Treaty of Swannington, in the town hall. Zukushaman (talk) 12:50, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the choice for the city. These sort of things are usually done in a neutral third-party country outside of the belligerent countries. New London in the Celtic Alliance would make a better choice I think (it's even in the interest of the Celtic Alliance to have a stable neighbour so they'd be open to it) inside the Windsors castle. Considering the MP (those that were made part of the coup, the others or those refusing the whole thing having been kicked out of their parliaments to avoid potential opposition with propaganda to cover the true reasons) have backed up Poll's plan and openly collaborated with him, I don't think they'd be forgotten or let go so easily. I see post-Poll Great Britain as being divided in the closest way to pre-DD England, with some being renamed or modified a bit in their borders to accomodate new realities like nuked cities and cultural changes/cities that grown in size and influence since 1983. Speaking of nuked cities, many in 2020 will finally be livable again! Those includes: York, Kingston upon Hull, Bristol, Leicester, Norwich, Coventry, Stoke on Trent, Wolverhamton, Reading, Dudley, Durham, Southend on Sea, Swindon, Huddersfield, Oxford, Cambridge, Stockport, Peterborough, Slough, Dover, Brighton, Gloucester, Rotherham and Newport. One of the first actions of the new Great Britain would undertake after the war would be a massive operation of rebuilding similar to the post-WW2 period to stimulate a boom in the economy. Not only would populated cities be rebuild across England and Southern Scotland, a massive never-seen before program of incentives would be made for ex-refugees of those no more radioactive cities and descendants/relatives of them to reinstall themselves into these cities to rebuild them faithfully with the help fo the United Communities, who saw this conflict as the best time to finally hold a foot in Europe, Prussia, some french countries and the rich Nordic Union. 

Also, for that corruption scandal following Ipswich, it should be added into the related articles if not already done. We're making you working some more Verence :). 

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:25, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

The corruption scandal that followed the Ipswich Incident is already in this part of the page about Woodbridge

Current Events

Verence71 (talk) 17:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]

Ok. New London it is. And yes many cities are habitable now, which was as I remember one of the reasons the Leicestershire independence movement happened recently at this time, and they even had a program to rebuild Leicester. Now the UK government can do it, and do it correctly along with many other newly habitable cities. By the way, could I build a character page for Edward Poll? As he is now most definitely relevant.

MrWoodward (talk) 20:33, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. Just remember to make sure it is realistic, follow the established canon (if it is realistic, else make objections to them first to hopefully get your point across) and make sure to explain what that dude was doing before Doomsday and before he became chief of OBN. Show a good progression of his life. And, just you know, you can disagree with the New London choice if that doesn't make any sense for you, I'd be pleased to know why (its not because I suggest it that it is authority).

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:02, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Ok I've made the page! You can read about Edward Poll here. Could you help out with it a little bit please? Thank you guys!

MrWoodward (talk) 17:45, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

The map seriously needs updating

Zukushaman (talk) 13:33, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

What map are you talking about?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:55, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

The map of Great Britain and the successor states, shown on quite a few pages. Cleveland, the OBN... Most maps which show the current state of Britain and expansions of Newolland and Woodbridge for example.

Zukushaman (talk) 14:35, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

As far as a prison for Poll and his inner circle how about this place??

Woodbridge used it as a prison for violent criminals when it was still under military control

Verence71 (talk) 17:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Here's a thought for the "Imperator". What if the position of Emperor is a meritocratic one, like the Roman Emperor? Poll could decide after his coronation or you know during the war that his successor would be one of his closest peers or generals, one loyal to the regime (this is because, having read the biography article, Poll has no children or spouse). He would have his successor prepared, but of course it would never work out because they'll end up losing the war and the regime collapsing.

FiteOwl (talk) 19:39, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

That's what I was intending. That's exactly why the Newolland monarchy supported fully his plan (in order to be eligible for such a crown as part of a new court and elite whose members of their family could for generations get favours out of the king). But even with that, like I said, I think it's a bit too early to decide the aftermath of the war: the war will surely only end in 2022-2024 and didn't even started yet! Also for the stadium, isn't there any surviving or build after DD stadium that is circular? Else a football stadium covered by bleachers all around it would still do the trick. But a "Football stadium coronation" wouldn't make sense inside a sports hall I think.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Okay the "stadium" can be outside. It's good to have an already planned aftermath though, so while this goes on as a live ongoing timeline, we can update the war's progress bit by bit with events likely to happen while still keeping in mind the solution it must come to.

I agree about the map thing. The map of GB needs on quite a few articles needs looking at.

MrWoodward (talk) 23:36, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Hello guys! I see the Edward Poll page hasn't been updated /is incomplete. Is it ok if I fill it in? Hope everyone is alright Nay Mate Woody (talk) 11:36, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

I'm alright. I'm okay with you continuing as long as you stay true to style, context and logic we all agreed (and I'm sure you will). I'm really proud of that coffee meeting of mine and thrilled to see it come to light.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:00, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

I want to add that none of this is done with the ownership of these states in hand, and even then some of these events are uncanonical or impossible. 

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:08, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hello, everyone. I realize this is from several months ago, but I'm hopeful that we can start to sort it all out. I've spent the last few days' worth of free time familiarizing myself with what we have on 1983dd-Britain, something that I had never paid much attention to before.
So first, regarding Adoption and adding to canonical articles: we have a process for that, and we have to follow it. It's something that I'm sure many of us will have to do several times in the coming months. See the Editorial Guidelines; but essentially we need to make an attempt to reach out to other people's creations before we add to them. In some cases, certain articles are group efforts, so adding to them just means we have to discuss them here; but still flag your changes as a proposal first.
Regarding the storyline discussed above: I think the title "Emperor" is going to ruin it for a lot of people. If the point is for a strongman-type leader to emerge in the established English states, and for there to be a struggle between those who want to unite under him, and those who don't: then that's a completely plausible story. It adds a nice dystopian element to the timeline, and it's interestingly ambiguous in that there's no clear hero and villain to the story. Poll and his supporters would have justifiable reasons for acting, and so would opponents. But: for him to call himself Emperor makes him sound like a crazy person, and it feels more like insane dystopian sci-fi rather than an actual attempt at an alternate timeline.
So I suggest that for the final version of the proposal, he call himself something else. My suggestion would be Lord Protector, something that is rather grandiose (and self-aggrandizing) without sounding totally delusional. I can even imagine him testing the title out in the manner suggested by SigmaHero: he's talking with a reporter and says something like, "I think that if the recent war has shown us one thing, it's that the OBN is more than just an organization: it's really England's future. And in the same way, I think of myself as more than just a chairman: I see my responsibility as the protection of the whole English nation. A Lord Protector, as it were."
I realize that Sigma's use of Latin is going for more of a Roman Republican sense of "Imperator" as "a successful military commander." I see this as unrealistic to the extreme. Most of us do not use the Roman Republic as our main cultural and political reference point, and that's going to be even more true in the world of Doomsday.
So my suggestion for moving forward with the Poll proposal: first, obviously, reach out to te relevant creators on their User Talk pages. Next, change his self-declared title from emperor to Lord Protector (or something else that’s suitable, ideally something that’s also relevant from English history and society). And adjust everything accordingly, so that the fight that ensues is less about which family is crowned, and more about whether the English states want a military strongman-type figure to be the one who finally unites them. Then, as we discuss the proposal, we’ll be less focused on the insanity of the title, more on the merits of the storyline.
Benkarnell (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Just a minute, let me put this straight: I'm not the one who came with this imperator title nor Edward Poll thirst for power. It was Nay Mate Woody's idea. And i didn't want to be too much severe with him, so I tried to find a sort of compromise where this idea he truly was passionate about could somehow work (with many changes). And the result was this civil war and the whole coffee meeting and such. But if you think about it, this is quite a perfect time for that : the first true test of the OBN under his leadership against the Sons of DeMontford in Leicestershire was a brilliant success. He got glory and popularity perfect for a cult of personality, the power in his hands starts to mess with his head. England never seemed so united since Doomsday. That idea of him putting a new royal family in place is not that farfetched, look at Newolland for instance. By riding on the anti-Windsor sentiment in the south-eastern part of England, he is sure to rally some allies on his side and popular support. By getting rid of any pre-DD aristocratic legitimacy to the throne, he is also making allies in the Newolland royal family since they can under that new order get high positions of power previously unobtainable. Just imagine the psychological side of all this (you know, the one thing almost all timelines neglect): a recomforting father figure bringing comfortable and reassuring stability and pre-DD prestige to a region that just witnessed two wars in less then a decade. Taking another aspect of this timeline (mirroriring real-life events), it mirrors the rise of authoritarianism in the 2010s and strongmen rules. Just imagine the anger and chauvinism in New Britain from someone taking the noble and sacred monarchy for his own non-aristocratic rule to a reunified England they fled when it was breaking apart. Don't you think someone living through three decades of unrest away from an utopianized pre-DD England (Edward Poll) and directly leading the front against rebels wouldn't have some psychological damage leading to desire for control (the "cockroach to squash" mentality)?

But for such a war to take place in the first place, it needs Leicester to be canon (like it actually was, fair and square) else there's no context that could lead to Poll rise in power in the first place. Else it is impossible to even happen in the first place. SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you - I just mixed up your developed scenario with Woody's original suggestion. I do think that such a conflict fits in well with the setting for the exact reasons you say. It's just the sort of growing pains we ought to expect at this point, a moment where concern is turning from mere to survival to the finally-real prospect of national restoration. But I'll say it again: simply using the title "Emperor", whether in English or Latin, instantly transforms that plausible scenario into one that's just silly. Even in a post-nuclear scenario, nobody is going to take someone seriously who starts telling people that he's the Emperor of England, no matter how many local battles he's won. A divisive strongman who doesn't invent weird titles for himself? That's believable and interesting, and the story you wrote around it makes sense if you remove the "imperial" aspect. Whether he comes out on top or not, it's just the sort of crisis that can provoke a decision on what England is finally going to be. Benkarnell (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

But for this to even happen, Leicester NEEDS to regain its canon status. TheWolvesDen still didn't reply to my point showing how we made it canon fair and square according to the editorial guidelines and how unfair it was for him to unilateraly make it a proposal again. Else why bother doing all the effort to ask permission from all english states for a war if the very catalyzer is not canon on its own?

But I agree, "Lord-Protector" sounds great (and more realistic). Could come with a whole historical revisionism that usually come with those sorts of things like "Oliver Cromwell did nothing wrong! He's an hero who I continue his legacy as lord-protector myself!". The same way Putin does with Ivan the Terrible and Stalin. SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen that, and I don't see it in the Former Proposals. But why not just re-list it together with the other British proposals. Honestly, if they all fit together so tightly, it's best if we consider them as a group anyway. Benkarnell (talk) 01:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)


This is a really important resource, thanks. Benkarnell (talk) 17:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Lore and cannon issues in the UK

A UK map.

A UK map.

New London (1983: Doomsday)

A 100Kt nuke would have leveled most of Windsor north of it on fire. Fall out would be Windows would have shattered in Gerrard's Cross, miles away. Even a 10kt nuke would shatter windows in Windsor and burn up Eton Wick. Is it possible for the place to survive and become a state or not, I think it is unlikely.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Where is this info coming from?

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:13, September 29, 2020 (UTC) says it is 100kt.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:54, October 1, 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, do you mean the hit on Slough? I ran a simulation with a 100k nuke hitting Slough, at an airburst, with the epicenter being the intersection between Oatlands Drive and Waterbeach Road. While the pressure would be in the 1 psi range, shattering some windows, that is not uncanonical to what the article on New London says. Little radiation would be there, the radiation would be sent northeast by the wind patterns. The problem here would be the thermal radiation, and the burns. In that regard, Windsor Castle would be quite severely hit. That does not exclude the possibility of a bunker within Windsor Castle being used for protection of the people within it, but it would mean MANY MANY casualties in Windsor due to third-degree burns. 

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:48, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Yeh, I meant a nuke exploded on Slough, damaging Windsor.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:40, October 1, 2020 (UTC) was my source. I airburst over the railway station. You are right, it's burns, not over pressure induced demolition that would ruin Windsor. Obviously I got the rings confused, but still, Windsor is hell either way. I note the winds.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:54, October 1, 2020 (UTC)

True British Army (1983: Doomsday)

It is now long cannon that Luton became a major TBA city that Essex later conquered. Lore says it was hit by a 100 kt nuke that would have destroyed it apart from the outer fringes of adjacent Dunstable, thus a plot hole and story line paradox. I propose that he nuke slightly misses (it happened for Glasgow and Liverpool). If the Luton nuke exploded 5 miles to the north over Barton-Le-Clay, most of Luton (except a small bit by the airport and it's 10kt nuke) would only get moderate or light blast damage, plus any radiation depending on the winds, thus the town and the few survivors could be recovered by the TBA.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Idk where the info on 100k Luton nuke came from, as far as I know it's never been clarified if anything outside of the Luton airport with a small groundburst nuke was hit. Also, winds were north-northeasterly.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  12:01, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

  • Actually, it's worse, United Kingdom (1983: Doomsday) actually lists it as 200kt. I agree, a couple on low yield nukes on Luton airport is more rational. I take the point about the winds.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:35, October 1, 2020 (UTC)

Dorset, Worcestershire, Hertfordshire and Oxfordshire

Who owns the counties of Dorset, Hertfordshire and Oxfordshire?

  • Articles and maps disagree:
  1. OBN page- Oxen and Berks are Celtic.
  2. Celtic Alliance page- Hertfordshire, Oxfordshire, Berkshire are Celtic.
  3. Essex page- Hertfordshire is Essexian. New London's part of Berkshire is Celtic.
  4. Maps generally agree Hertfordshire is equally terra nullis or Essex, New London is Celtic, non New London Berkshire, Worcestershire and Dorset shown equally terra nullis and Celtic, and Oxen mostly as terra nullis.

Hertfordshire in next door to Essex, so they would have the best chance of getting to it, but would any one want Oxfordshire yet.

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 21:03, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Lanarkshire's ownership

What the Southern Scotland page said:

After the war the allied nations decided to divide up some of the land that Ur Alba had conquered in the previous two years.
The Celtic Alliance will get the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.

The Kingdom of Northumbria will get a border with the Celtic Alliance along the southern section of the old A76 and also the towns of Lockerbie and Moffat, all land south of the A706 including the towns of Selkirk, Hawick, Melrose, Jedburgh, Kelso, Galashiels, Duns and Eyemouth on the North Sea coast. However in a surprise announcement on the 20th August 2011 the Northumbrian Witain announce that all lands gained after the Ur Alba war will be returned to Southern Scotland on the provision of the election of a democratic government. It will however keep a small section of border with the Celtic Alliance near the town of Gretna.

Under this agreement the border has returned to almost the former English/Scottish border.
The area will be called Southern Scotland, the new nations capital will be in Edinburg.

What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The capital is Glasgow. It is formed from the former Scottish counties of Dumfrieshire, Perthshire, Inverness-shire, Ayrshire, Caithness and Sutherland, Ross, Moray, Angus, Aberdeenshire, Argyll, and small areas of neighbouring counties.
Areas around the towns of Ayr and Dumfries were taken into the Celtic Alliance after the defeat of Ur Alba in the Ur Alba War.

What the Hiatory of Scotland page said:

East Kirkcudbrightshire - Malcolm MacKinnon : Fishermens Guild
West Kirkcudbrightshire - Fiona Fletcher : Oat Guild'

The Celtic Alliance page say it has not got control over Fife. The Celtic Alliance page say it has not got control over Fife, Lanarkshire or Remfrewshire, the Southern Scotland page said they had Lanarkshire partly annexed off them by the Celtic Alliance and most maps show them as CA held. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 05:07, July 7, 2020 (UTC)

Much of mainland Scotland in general

The Kingdom of Scotland page said:

In mid 1990 a group of anti-communist Scottish monarchists joined together under a man named James Stuart, their aim was to restore to Kingdom of Scotland to its former heights, James Stuart took the royal name James VIII to try to show continuity with the former Jacobian Kingdom from pre 1707. Over the next three years support for this new Kingdom grew throughout the area until it controlled nearly two-thirds of the former south of Scotland. Throughout this time they struck into the heart of the Scottish Alliance suffering few losses.
After the collapse of the Kingdom of Scotland, King James VIII fled east into the Scottish wilds near the current Northumbria border, nothing has been heard of him since the winter of 2007, he is assumed dead.

What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The capital is Glasgow. It is formed from the former Scottish counties of Dumfrieshire, Perthshire, Invernessshire, Ayrshire, Caithness and Sutherland, Ross, Moray, Angus, Aberdeenshire, Argyll, and small areas of neighbouring counties.
Areas around the towns of Ayr and Dumfries were taken into the Celtic Alliance after the defeat of Ur Alba in the Ur Alba War.

It becomes clear that the three missiles that targeted Glasgow did not all reach their target, with one missile reaching the nuclear base on the river Clyde, the western fringes of the city and towns notably Greenock, Clydebank and Dumbarton receive heavy damage. Nevertheless, the majority of the city remains intact. Contact with Dublin is restored and long supply lines are started via Oban as the lower Clyde is contaminated. Glasgow formally appoints a new Senator Provost (as opposed to OTL Lord Provost) who will sit in the Dublin Parliament. The Senator Provost is Jim Sillers a well known trade unionist and Scottish Nationalist.

What the Southern Scotland page said:

After the war the allied nations decided to divide up some of the land that Ur Alba had conquered in the previous two years.
The Celtic Alliance will get the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
The Kingdom of Northumbria will get a border with the Celtic Alliance along the southern section of the old A76 and also the towns of Lockerbie and Moffat, all land south of the A706 including the towns of Selkirk, Hawick, Melrose, Jedburgh, Kelso, Galashiels, Duns and Eyemouth on the North Sea coast.
However in a surprise announcement on the 20th August 2011 the Northumbrian Witain announce that all lands gained after the Ur Alba war will be returned to Southern Scotland on the provision of the election of a democratic government. It will however keep a small section of border with the Celtic Alliance near the town of Gretna.
Under this agreement the border has returned to almost the former English/Scottish border.
The area will be called Southern Scotland, the new nations capital will be in Edinburg.

The Ur Alba War page says:

The leaders of the township of Stranraer have sent a message to the Chamberhouse in Peebles.

What the History of Scotland page said:

East Kirkcudbrightshire - Malcolm MacKinnon : Fishermens Guild
West Kirkcudbrightshire - Fiona Fletcher : Oat Guild
  • Basically the maps are at total conflict with the lore and cannon and the CA page dose not list CA controlee ver several places!
  • Angus, Sterlingshire, (give or take Southern Scotland having the Falkirk-Grangemouth area on one map.), Remfrewshire and, Dumbartonshire, Wigtownshire, Clackmannenshire, Kinross-shire, Buteshire, Banfshire and Kincardineshire should all be unclaimed terra nullis, save for the discovered remnants of Greenock, Clydebank and Dumbarton cities.
    • The part of Scotland that is CA on their page (pluss the unclaimed adjoining territory of Buteshire and Banfshire) would have joined in the wake of the SNP singeing the Hebrides up for it. I'm Shure the mayors Ian C. Fraser and Allan G. Sellar would like to join it. The rest, which the CA page puts down as unclaimed could be the Kingdom of Scotland, which they conquer and occupies, but did not fully integrate. The CA wants to set up a new state, but the (anti-English\Irish) racist basterds are even worse to reprogram than Southern Scotland.
    • The Celtic Alliance gets the Ur Alba land between the the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
    • Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or ireradited could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.
    • Wigtownshire is just over the sea from N. Ireland and would logically join the CA early on, but soon got captured by Ur Alba.


Why would the Celtic Alliance bother with southern and Eastern Fife, its nuked to oblivion apart from around Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Kelty, Glenrothes, Methil a strip along the south bank of the River Tay, Tayport and Cupar. I think it should mostly be unclaimed terra nullis until after 2000.

  • The nuked places are:
  1. RAF Pitreavie Castle- 10kt
  2. Anstruther RSG- 20kt
  3. Rosyth Dockyard- 10kt
  4. RAF Leuchars- 10kt
  5. DM Crombie- 10kt
  6. MOD Caledonia- 10kt
  7. Radiation from Lothian hits Burntisland.

Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or irradiated could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.


What the Celtic Alliance page said:

The (south Welsh) Valleys, Monmouthshire, Glamorgan, Neath and Bridgend joined in 1999.
Powys joined in 2002.
  • Basically most of the maps are at total conflict with the lore and cannon, they are all been shown as  unclaimed terra nullis!
    • It would make sense for the Celts, either on their own imitative or prompted by the Pembroke based Welsh state, to be annexed the region time outside the few dead zones in Glamorganshire and Gwent.

CA held "dead zones" in the former UK

The area around Holy Loch and Faslaine would be radioactive ruble for centuries to come, as would parts of Glamorgan in Wales

Kingdom of Scotland

The Kingdom of Scotland page said:

In mid 1990 a group of anti-communist Scottish monarchists joined together under a man named James Stuart, their aim was to restore to Kingdom of Scotland to its former heights, James Stuart took the royal name James VIII to try to show continuity with the former Jacobian Kingdom from pre 1707. Over the next three years support for this new Kingdom grew throughout the area until it controlled nearly two-thirds of the former south of Scotland. Throughout this time they struck into the heart of the Scottish Alliance suffering few losses.
After the collapse of the Kingdom of Scotland, King James VIII fled east into the Scottish wilds near the current Northumbria border, nothing has been heard of him since the winter of 2007, he is assumed dead.
  • The Kingdom of Scotland was never fully defined and was thus remains vague and unfilled.
    • The part of Scotland that is CA on their page (plus the unclaimed adjoining territory of Buteshire, Kincardine and Banffshire) would have joined in the wake of the SNP singeing the Hebrides up for it. I'm Shure the mayors Ian C. Fraser and Allan G. Sellar would like to join it. The rest, which the CA page puts down as unclaimed could be the Kingdom of Scotland, which they conquer and occupies, but did not fully integrate. The CA wants to set up a new state, but the (anti-English\Irish) racist bastards are even worse to reprogram than Southern Scotland.
    • The Celtic Alliance gets the Ur Alba land between the the Irish Sea coastline including the towns of Ayr and Dumfries and east to the former A76.
    • Fife could also see the part that is not nuked and\or irradiated could set up on their own. A Scottish equivalent of Matlock? The united towns of Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, Glenrothes, Cupar, Tayport and Kelty remain a united group of minor city states and only join the Celtic Alliance reluctantly in 2008? It would add a touch of realism and increase plausibility with out screwing up the time line's cannon or lore.
    • Wigtownshire is just over the sea from N. Ireland and would logically join the CA early on, but soon got captured by Ur Alba.

Is James Stuart real and alive in 1983? SigmaHero045 (talk) 16:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


These facets are mentioned on only a few pages other than their home pages and can be tactfully modified and\or removed with out any causing chaos in the timeline if one is willing to spend a bit of time fact checking afterwards. User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 11:30, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1Page 2Page 3

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5


Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelinesfor more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24

Georg I of Prussia

I am interested in creating a article for the King of Prussia, the fictional son of King Christian I (or Christian-Sigismund). I would like to explore into the Prussian Royal Family, including Georg's mother, wife, and children. DasBull$


With the destruction of the world, I believe that a Slovak survivor state has a possibility of existence...DasBull$ (talk) 03:51, July 24, 2018 (UTC)


Following the dissolution of Serbia in the Second Yugoslav War, I think that Croatia and Bosnia would not allow Macedonia to take almost all of Serbia and so I think that a puppet buffer state should be established. DasBull$ (talk) 00:14, July 17, 2018 (UTC)

Alexander I of Macedonia

Would it be okay that I could add a page for the King of Macedonia? DasBull$ (talk) 22:42, April 21, 2018 (UTC)

War of the Alboran Sea

Article by Gatemonger. Feg 17:09, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

This seems to accurately gather together information from different sources - Sicily, Spanish Regency, Sardinia, Sicily, the Spanish National Republic, and the Atlantic Defense Community. It needs copyediting, wikilinks, and an infobox, but I don't see why it can't be made a canonical article quickly. Benkarnell (talk) 03:00, October 8, 2020 (UTC)
Since Sicily and other Italy-related content is up for Review, I'm leaving this as a proposal for now. Benkarnell (talk) 15:58, October 12, 2020 (UTC)


Can I make this a stub? I can't see anything else to add, and it is reasonably plausible. Praetorian Flag.png RoG Flag.png "Sleeps with the fishes" "An Offer you Can't Refuse." "Make a wish. It'll be your last" Falklands Flag.png

Nvm. I am going to be changing it a bit. Praetorian Flag.png RoG Flag.png "Sleeps with the fishes" "An Offer you Can't Refuse." "Make a wish. It'll be your last" Falklands Flag.png

As it stands, this is a really minor article - basically a radio station that builds on the legacy of the Principality (thankfully, it's not an independent principality anymore). It should be considered together with the raft of Britain-related content currently under discussion. Benkarnell (talk) 14:37, October 5, 2020 (UTC)


Small state in Southern Kansas by ScarletI am helping him with it by giving suggestions on the talk page. Macedon Shield.pngBow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!Rome Shield.png

Page currently being redone by Daes and I. —Bfoxius (talk)

What's the status on this as of recent? Arstar talk 16:26, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the timeline needs another thriving micro-republic in North America. But here too, there's a lot of work already put into it. It's a detailed page that several people had a hand in. Benkarnell (talk) 05:12, October 5, 2020 (UTC)
If my new proposal for Guymon/Cimarron is accepted (next section down), I'm interested in adopting this one to rewrite it along broadly similar lines. Since the only section that's fully developed is the military, I'm imagining Verdigris as a rather more militarized version of a frontier town, going through changes not unlike Guymon. Benkarnell (talk) 01:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


Survivor state located in the Oklahoma Panhandle. CheesyCheese (talk) 02:38, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I'm of the mind that stub-length descriptions of tiny American city-states should be removed as a general rule. What this one has going for it is that (1) it's an interesting area generally, given the Panhandle's history as a juristictional no-man's-land and its location on the edge of the Restored United States; and (2) it was written by a user who's very much still active. But to be viable, this article would have to coordinate with the much more developed info on Northern Texas and the USA, in particular Kansas, whose territory it borders. I've reached out to Cheese and asked if he's still interested in this proposal. Benkarnell (talk) 04:27, October 5, 2020 (UTC)
I never heard anything from CheesyCheese. I waited 2 weeks and posted my modified proposal. Summary of my changes:
    • I moved the page from Guymon to Cimarron, but this reflects an in-universe change c. 2014.
    • I presented the place as a half-lawless frontier town for the entirety of the 90s and 00s. I tried to imagine what would happen in a typical rural prairie town, far from any attacks. It's not total collapse, and it's not an island of civilization. It's more a slow, steady dissipation.
    • I've made the American Spring events of 2011 key to its transformation and the rebuilding of civil society.
    • The community began making overtures to the USA in the mid-2010s, and was admitted as a state in 2020. If we assume that the Virgin Islands were admitted sometime in the middle of the decade and no other new states since then, that would make Cimarron #13, which is a nice coincidence.
US flag with 13 stars by Hellerick.svg
If the proposal is accepted, then the USA map and flag would need updates. I'm happy to do the map, which anyway needs an update to show the Virgin Islands. For a flag, I would suggest this version by Hellerick. As the US expands, we may as well use the many versions that he was kind enough to upload to Flags of the United States. If other new states are later discovered to have been admitted during the period 2012-2020, then it will be easy enough to retcon the parts of this proposal that refer to Cimarron as the 13th state.
Benkarnell (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Tuscan Armed Forces. 

I have make a page about the Tuscan Armed Forces, is finish. Military of Tuscany Col. James Hsu (talk), 14:23, 05/03/2016 (UTC) 


I've just created page for the English county of Norfolk to serve as a sort of "base" for any small states in the county --Verence71 (talk) 19:35, March 18, 2016 (UTC)


I have made Seborga as a nation of 1983: Doomsday. User:Col. James Hsu, 22:20, 29/03/2016 (UTC) 

Not plausible due to other states. Objections to obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 01:58, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Monaco itself is "at best a loose confederation of city-states," so this actually could exist with changes indicating that it's a subnational unit. Benkarnell (talk) 14:48, September 28, 2020 (UTC)
Update: I've substantially re-written the proposal so that now it's clearly a dependent state of Monaco. I also reduced some things to make it clear that it is not a fully modern first-world society at this time. The military information needs to be similarly reduced. Once that is completed, I think it should be able to graduate without much of a problem. Benkarnell (talk) 20:57, October 5, 2020 (UTC)

Society for the Italian Reunification

I have created a page about the committe for established a democratic state in southern Italy 

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 16:54. 

For one thing, the proposed name for the article seems far too long. I am not sure, but perhaps the "CEMDPA" sited in the final paragraph might be appropriate. But then again, typing "Committee" in the search box is all that is needed to fine it.  Check with the naming conventions. SouthWriter (talk) 16:54, June 11, 2016 (UTC)

Ah ok, i have use that name why there is that in the Non-governmental organizations, i think we can delete from Modern to Democratic, why is understable what kind of state the Italian want, is not need of specificated there. If you wanna you can modificated the article.

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 21:16. 

As noted elsewhere, change the name and fix the destinations/headquarters. Lordganon (talk) 03:08, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

This has been discussed quite a bit on Discord, and changes have happened in response to it. I think it's natural that such an organization would exist; that it would oppose the ongoing Alpine hegemony in Italy; and that it would look to Italian communities abroad for sympathy and support. However I also agree with TheWolvesDen that the list of chapters is more ambitious than realistic. I also agree that the goal of this society is unlikely to be achieved in the short term, since The World, as a whole, supports what the A.C. is doing in Italy. Benkarnell (talk) 18:45, October 6, 2020 (UTC)

Martin Luther King Jr.

I am still working on this article, but I would like to know if there are objections to making this article about his legacy and deification in the Post Doomsday era cannon eventually

The idea that he's actually "deified" strains believability for me, but I do like the idea of him as a prophet to the post-dd generation. I think this is a really interesting article to have. Benkarnell (talk) 04:43, October 5, 2020 (UTC)

Aircraft Carriers (1983: Doomsday)

I thought this would be an interesting page, considering their role in international diplomacy, and the various nations with/and or developing them. I have gone off of various nation pages for information, as well as Wikipedia for the pre-Doomsday stats. Some questions and comments that I would like confirmation on, if anyone knows different:

1. On Doomsday, Brazil was operating the Minas Gerais. In OTL, they replaced it in 2001, when it was replaced by the former French carrier, Foch, renamed the Sao Paulo. On Brazil's page it says that they purchased the British carrier, HMS Invincible, and named it the Sao Paulo in this timeline. It does not state a date of the sale, but I would assume it would be in the late 1990's, based on the evacuation date from Britain, as well as the fact it states the carrier sat unused for years. Does Brazil operate two carriers at this point? And they likely have developed the shipyards to build new carriers, as both ships in OTL were decommissioned by this date (2001 and 2005 respectively).

2. Are the Mexican carriers nuclear powered? I know they are Nimitz-class, and the Mexicans could possibly get uranium from the Republic of Texas, but is there a likelihood that the vessels were refitted for conventional operations? Also, the second was launched last year, but as of now is unnamed. Would it be named after a person, or the state it was launched from?

3. The ANZS Commonwealth (formerly the USS Carl Vinson) was due for mid life refueling in 2005 and the refueling/repairs in OTL took place until mid July 2009, and went back in for some other maintenance in October of 2009 (the second likely would not have occurred in ATL), but it would need refueled. This would have been right before the Saguenay War, as well as the Second Sicily War. The ANZCN would know that the refueling/repairs would leave the nation without carrier power for a significant amount of time. I think it would be likely they would either build another carrier, or possibly order one or two of the Remembrance-class carriers from the Celtic Alliance. The carrier is also halfway through it's life cycle, and in OTL is due for replacement in 2030 by an unnamed Gerald R. Ford-class carrier. The ANZCN would be looking into a replacement at this point.

4. Eritrea operates the Eritrea as a light carrier, modified from the former USS Orca. The ship is only 310 feet long, the shortest Merchant Aircraft Carrier (HMS Audacity), only carrying piston driven propeller aircraft was 467 feet long. In OTL, presently, the Thai Navy operates the HTMS Chakri Naruebet, which is the shortest carrier in operation today at 571 feet. The vessel would need a serious overhaul and rebuild to even be close to functional as a carrier.

5. Argentina operated the ARA Vienticinco de Mayo on Doomsday. The British Navy might have targeted the vessel in efforts to prevent an invasion of the Falklands, but I feel like they had bigger fish to fry. In OTL due to the lack of funding, the ship was decommissioned and scrapped after being salvaged to maintain the Minas Gerais. It is possible this occurred in ATL as well, but it is also possible due to the events of Doomsday that the Argentinians decided to keep it operational.

6. I would guess the Indian Navy lost the INS Vikrant during the war with Pakistan.

7. The Soviet Union carrier Kiev was in drydock in Mykolaiv on Doomsday. The city is not listed as a target, but I believe it would have been a target due to the shipyards and military presence, as well as the fact that the list is not complete. The other ships I presume were hunted down and destroyed. The Minsk was in the Indian Ocean around Doomsday, so likely either American or Australian submarines would have targeted the vessel. The Novorossiyka was operated in the Pacific Fleet, and likely engaged and was sunk by the US or Japan.

8. How did the Celtic Alliance Navy get plans for the Invincible-class carrier? Also, what would the defensive armament be?

9. What would the Canadian carrier be named?

10. I am also assuming both Spain and France lost their carriers on Doomsday.

11. Also, the Americans would have lost 13 carriers on Doomsday! Only the USS Carl Vinson and the USS Kitty Hawk survived!

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:20, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

The USS Independence actually survived and is the flagship of the United States Atlantic Remnant Navy. Gillan1220 (talk) 05:28, April 19, 2020 (UTC)

List of Prime Ministers of Malaysia

As a Malaysian, I had wanted to see how the Malaysian premiership would have developed since Doomsday.

Canon stated that Malaysia was ruled by an Islamic radical government from 1987 to 1998, who will be the leaders of that government? The Pas political party and Ibrahim Libya? Gmhappy1000 (talk) 06:26, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Some London, UK, articles

London, England (1983: Doomsday)

2015 WCRB report on the former Greater London Area (1983: Doomsday)

William Shakespeare's plays and sonnets (1983: Doomsday)

William Shakespeare's plays and sonnets (1983: Doomsday)Bronwyn the 2nd (talk) 20:40, July 20, 2020 (UTC)

For context: this was an old proposal, marked obsolete years ago before Bronwyn added to it. I still don't think it adds much to the timeline. Currently all the page says is that he's a popular and much-read author today, and it lists this country by country. That's sort of trivial. I could imagine a page that goes deeper into the topic: how is a war-centered play like Coriolanus or Julius Caesar interpreted differently in a world torn by nuclear war and unstable regimes? What cities have emerged as the centers of Shakespearean theater now that London is gone? Things like that are worth exploring - but the article as it is now is not, in my opinion. Benkarnell (talk) 19:30, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Republic of Jefferson

I adopted the municipal states of the pacific and said that brief civil war transformed it into   the republic of Jeffeson. I have made page for the republic of Jefferson. I think it is ready for graduation.

Woah woah hold your horses here, I object to both of your big canon changes. You didn't seem to ask anyone in this talk page about such a major change in the region, that could count as a violation of the editorial guidelines. Just because you adopted it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. All major changes are to be pre-approved by active members of this timeline. Please don't do that again. Also, for the love of God please fix your english. I suggest Antidote english edition, a program to help you see all the small mistakes. Please revert all unauthorized major changes to Doomsday articles. It's not like 1989:War here where you're very active, realism and strict rules are to follow here. Also ending the pacific states on such a radical out-of-nowhere change of tone doesn't make any sense unless you show me a detailed and accurate reasoning based on politico-historico-socio-cultural realities of the region and timeline as to why all would lead there (and the United States to annex it and why Jefferson exist too). Don't forget to sign your posts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:04, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe I went against canon when I made my updates . Instead I believe I built on  where the Mitro left off. Mitro   said that  many people have accused the Civic Rights Party (CRP) of rigging the  election of 2000 and that started holding both peaceful protests and riots. Mitro also said that MSP authorities responded by banning protests, blocking international mail, censuring the media, and having the Pacific Coast Police Unit violently break up any protest. This made it seam like civil war was on the horizon. It also seams that many of the former high members of the civic rights party are former warlords who participated in acts of rape, and cannibalism before the wars. I believe that is likely that former the warlords officially gave up these act after the Municipal States formed, but a few of them are secretly still raping women, and practicing cannibalism. I feel that news of the dirty secrets of the MSP officials becoming public would lead to a full blown civil war. I also feel that news would get out to the ANZC and the SAC and that they would side with the rebels. I also support my changes by saying that GryffindorKrypton support my changes. However to be more accurate he agreed with the idea of a civil war ending with a victory for rebels and that the new MSP government would be made up of Jefferson Nationalists who past a new constitution that would transform the MSP into the Republic of Jefferson. He feel that the details of the scandals I listed were a little over the top and suggested I rephrase them as something less specific like quote " A series of high profile scandals, including violent crimes and racism by the CRP leadership"

Goldwind1 (talk) 12:53, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

First of all, the whole civil war thing. It's unrealistic, with what weapons are potential rebels supposed to fight with after decades of war and destruction and scarcity of ressources? There's no way any organization could form and gather enough popular support and willpower for a violent war against professional killing machines without morals (aka the police force made of criminal motorbike gangs) where they'll surely loose in their eyes (put yourself in their place). They'd preffer a minimum of stability after the pure hell they went through. They've got other things to worry about than racism like any post-war region with few financial ressources. The regime is put in place by two superpowers that finance it and, due to corruption that come with a lack of democratic freedoms, the cash stays in a few peoples pockets. I definitely agree that because of the American Spring protests in 2011, the protests against the rigged elections and the post-crackdown with iron fist rule that came after and the autocratic/criminal power that de facto took afterward almost the entire control of the system, the regime just can't survive in the short-term. But it's just fantasy to assume it will go down as a result of a full-on armed conflict like you show, the odds are against it. A very brief small scale local insurrection that will get crushed by the power in place can however be a realistic way on how events would unfold, and a way to put in action in the collective consciousness the elements of protests that will eventually follow. Diplomatic conflict between the AZNC and the SAC could happen. It could make now that the international headlines now that some form of connected news medias exist (radio and rare television). It could trigger disscussions in the neighbouring states (especially the US).

However, the hostile environement would cause delays in the construction of the rail network and would not permit something as luxurious as a television network: the region is in disrepair. There's just no way. Also, for the US, their word is to only annex states who would want to rejoin them, so they can't intervene. However, the association by the population of the oppressing regime to the two superpowers could create some new appreciation for the United States after two decades of feeling abandonned by them, an association of sovereign democratic stable values to the US instead of their municipal regime or their backers. I'm not quite sure however this would lead to a 2020 annexation as there doesn't seem to be any trend for expansion in the US side.

Also, have a consistant cause for the collapse, it's different in the MSP and the Jefferson page. Have one unified unfolding of events with realistic causes and consequences while taking into account the entire history and sociocultural factors of the region. PLEASE make the paragaphs in Jefferson readable, I just can't understand what's written in it, there's the jeffersons part..okay, then there's a populist, a unionist party it goes all-over the place and I can't follow.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:14, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

You are forgetting that the  MSP is a confederation in which all the cities have their own militias. Yerka and Port Oford are contorled by the Jefferson Nationalist. I feel that the bulk of the rebel army will be made up of the Yerka and Port Oford militias.

GryffindorKrypton support the united states expanding. He said he plans on having the USA absorb Hannibal and Pine Bluff. He says he supports the idea of the MSP/Republic of Jefferson eventually joining the new USA.

I want to see if some else agre with Sigma or me. I believe that GryffindorKrypton sides with. If I am right please say somethingGoldwind1 (talk) 22:12, May 22, 2020 (UTC).

Sigma I made some  changes to the  republic of jefferson page and the MSP pageGoldwind1 (talk) 22:27, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Let me first say: congratulations on improving your writing style! It is now clean, simple and well written (both in syntax and orthograph). Well done! You faithfully listened to my critics and you improved: doing that extra effort showed the message you took this seriously and were ready to listen. Again, good job and hope to see you continue with that good english. Also finally thank you for signing your posts for reference. Now, as for the actual content, now we need to fill it with intriguing yet realistic details on how this all unfolded, all the little factors that would make this quite believable to the reader, making him/her able to put themselves in a world that doesn't feel "fanfictionny"(like I've seen unfortunately many times on other timelines of this wiki) and more like real history with causality and all. Now, sure, they are indeed militias for each municipality but how exactly are they financed and where do they get their weapons and ammos (knowing only Yreka has a permanent professional militia while in the others, it's the criminal bikegangs in police uniforms that apply the law)? Where they brought up during the protests? Are they financed equally? And by whom (the central government civics party or the municipalities, with or without private financing if the historical and sociocultural factor allows it)? There's clearly a big internal political, historical and social divide between the democratic Yreka and the more corrupt autocratic neighbouring municipalities to the point Yreka have a permanent militia to deter other municipalities from taking its democratic freedoms (now that's one unhealthy relationship). I need more of these details knowing the events of the 90s and 2000s in the region (so not so long before the event occurs).  Hear me out, with restrospection given the context you are right that a civil war altough brief would occur (and not the unarmed Hong Kong-style protests that I imagined at first would make the civic rights party capitulate, leading to democratic moral elements of the region, including the jefferson nationalists, to dissolve the MSP and create the Republic of Jefferson: what they are fighting against are no ordinary antiprotest police forces but real easy-about-killing crimelords without morals and civic rights party members that are either bought up or that came from this same toxic soup of people that plagued the region for three decades and wouldn't compromise power until their last breath). Here's how it would go:

Part 1 So, the first free elections in the region in a long time finally arrive in 2010, four years after the armed conflict between the ANZC and the SAC over the Panama canal, one year after the second contract and some months after the civic rights party warmed up the relationship of the country with Siberia, leading to controversy from Jefferson nationalists, democracy activists (especially in Yreka where they are protected) and those still holding a grudge against the soviets for Doomsday and post-Doomsday that deeply affected their whole recent history. Newspapers are divided among party lines. Finances from two wealthy superpowers leads to certain rapid improvements in quality of life (notably with renewable energy although I quite doubt they would have the ressources, manpower and knowledge to build massive projects like new dams), it is mostly distributed to a few loyal members and municipalities of the regime and in influential people in the area (mostly with connections to the whole gangster chapter of its history that led to some very corrupt city states,the MSP being basically a power compromise made in the favor of overall local stability and development when humanitarian aid was urgent back in the 2000s), leading to further division in the fabricated country. The sentiment of being abandonned by the APA in the early 90s is still vivid in the memories of the locals and at the same time the American comitee for the restoration of the USA has chapters that finance up the jefferson voice that is the antithesis to what politics have been up to this point: anticorruption, democratization, centralization over corrupt linked-in-historical-crime city states, warming again to the United States that is recently officialy reborn on their eastern border and using properly the aid of the superpowers. Yet those ideas, altough rising in popularity, are still a minority so it will be curious to see the results of this first free election... NOTE: it's so late right now, I'm tired. I'll continue tomorrow. SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:46, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

Okay now, sorry for being two days late. Anyways:

Part 2

Historical and political precedent being into place, the election was rigged to keep the same party in power. All goes as in the article says except that in early 2011, a short-lived insurrection in one of these falsely democratic cities (prefferably one where it is not under martial law according to the system where some in some places power is in the cities-state, in others law and kills are done on shot by the criminal police) is cracked down by authorities. The tension still being at a record high since the iron fist control is still in place and applied in cities that are mouthpieces of a corrupt power-driven Al Capone style government. Still, the democratic elements of the MSP use their legal authority to disobey the federal government in Crescent City, being more and more pressured by the rest of the MSP elements (the same pressure that push Yreka to have its own permanent army before the election). The United States, still not in the economic boom of the mid/late 2010s, hesitate to intervene because of fears of turning once more into a warmongering imperialist country. Then, in March 2012, the violent public murder of a locally loved teenage student in Port Orford by a clear abuse of power made big news outside the controlled media and brought a second wave of protests that, because of the violent nature of the politicians and police officers in charge that never truly went away from its pre-MSP roots, quickly turned violent and into an armed conflict between militias as political purges lead the central commitee to effectively become a one-party state. Despite being better trained and more transparent in its actions and managing, the democratic side is loosing steam because the majority of the MSP (and therefore having the majority of pre-war sponsored weapons and access to the ocean for food to prevent famine) is part of the rogue state side. Given the contrast to neighbouring democratic and stable prospering US in comparaison by the now obvious totalitarian kakistocracian anocratian vibe of the MSP central commitee, popular opinion of the US after decades of anger towards them becomes for the first time positive. Calls are more and more urgent for the US to protect actual democracy and thus repair the mistakes of its past but the US stays neutral...until Yreka is on the last line of defense and beg publically for protection from the US. After a extremely negative perception (even before the war) of the MSP in the US, mediatized numerous masscares including against journalists and now that their frontier is in danger of becoming unstable if they let such a crime-apologist near them to influence and bring crime inside their frontier, the US finally decide to go against the motto of not enter foreign governements territory without the local gov accord and declare war on the MSP when the SAC and AZNC are late to intervene. WIth popular support, this change the balance and, altough not without it's defeats and many deaths, put an end to the corrupt crual state. Nuremberg style trials are made for all captured members of the Civic Rights party and all who supported it (including many many people from the Boss days of the region and the motorbike criminal gangs turned cops, make me know if you don't remember what this is), broadcasted live on radio stations (and television in the US and other NAU countries) for all people in the former MSP region to fully realize the level of atrocity and abuses made by the crooks crew for decades and kill any form of local support for that gang of people and their ideas in the process. It will give a clear picture and paint the historical evolution of the region from mysteries that were in the public's mind about the region. The United States puts in place the Jefferson republic with direct support and supervision from a neighbouring country rather that some faraway superpower who got their hands full on other matters at that time. They impose the rule of law and constitutional mandates that mean to prevent such abuses to happen again, including a ex-nazi style ban of holding any public function for the entire life of convicts of earlier trials and civilians who openly collaborated with them in knowledge of what was going on. The region is economically devastated, so many essential things are destroyed and so many people healths are to be taken care of (including mental health blows like traumas, especially with the children). The US will supervise the economic and social rebuilding of the region until it can take care of itself but by the end of the decade the government openly adopt and send to Torrington a demand to be made a state (thing that will only happen in the early 2020s as there's a big decades-old gap with the developped world to be taken care of first and a public image to improve in order to get popular support for their statehood). That's how I think it would taken care of.

And no, television networks are really not a priority right now (until the early 2020s at least): radios are way more realistic given the context, widespread avaibility and popular use for important stuff and entertainment. I really suggest that part be removed. Budgets are not infinite (especially less in a post-nuclear war world). Could the Jefferson statehood movement flag be officially used for the republic? That could make some interesting local jokes in the population that can still laughs about how they never thought something they considered as a joke up to this point actually became true.

I really want to see very soon your opinions about my suggestions so the MSP last days can finally be fixed. Feel free to demand clarifications as I'm better at explaining with more small and precise questions and answers then with a big 5 kilometers long paragraph

When would the American Intervention begin in the Pacific Civil War. When would the SAC and the ANZC intervene. When would the Pacific Civil war end.

I hope you don't mind if I say that the SigmaHero045 (talk) 06:22, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

The american intervention would begin in the 3rd quarter of the war, when the democratic side is near defeat and Yreka is next in line (imagine like the Korean war when the south governement was surrounded in Busan before the West heavily helped it, creating a comeback for the south). The AZNC would not intervene as I think they are too busy dealing with the damages of the 2010 floodings and that the rogues have taken control of the ocean coast with a navy to guard it. Also, the Jefferson nationalists would never want help from the superpowers that led to the negligent creation that is the MSP, that didn't really do well it's job of maintaining democracy and cleaning up the region of any political power the old gang might still have (instead leaving many criminals to constitute the police force). The jefferson nationalists tried doing it by themselves in order to truly finish the job of transitionning to popularly backed democracy knowing that such help from a joint accord of the two superpowers would take weeks when they don't have weeks to defend themselves, already having limited supply of ammos when not having the control of the coast. That is unless you show me that there were ANZC/SAC troops and ships in sufficient numbers near the region to quickly counter the autocratic confederate side. The autocrats got the raw murderous gangsters, the numbers, the food and the weapons vs a democratic side that is landlocked, far away from nearest help from either the SAC or the AZNC that would anyway dispute over the terms of occupation and coordination, with less ammos. It's from that context that would lead to signs of a early victory by the Civic rights party before the incoming siege of Yreka where they finally have no choice but to trust a country that ounce betrayed them in the collective consciousness.

It's very clear that such a conflict, given the context and the small territory, would only last weeks-two months. The nearest troops of the superpowers are days away and need proper ressources, manpower, transport and a proper plan in order to attack heavily distant fortified coastal cities (as showned in the "formation of the MSP" part of the article and the 1993 Crescent City incident). They don't have any military presence near the region (unless you prove me wrong). It's just more logic to demand help first from the USA then from a joint effort of the SAC and ANZC, there's just too many factors for that. Now what do you agree with and what don't you agree with. I'm again free to be more precise as I'm not very good at explaining.  SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:04, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Mitro says that  the Jefferson nationalist have  power in a few of the smaller cities and not just yerka.  I assume that Port Ofrord is a Jefferson nationalist stronghold because the mayor. I feel that that the Jefferson Nationalists probably have a few other strongholds. I like the idea of Ashland Lake view weed Susanville and gold beach being nationalist strong hold. Gold beach being a nationalist stornghold would be an advagte for the rebels because it base of the MSP navy

Do you think that yerka and the other nationalist strong holds would declare independence for the MSP and not be recognized by crescent city.

So do you like the idea of the war being in march 2012 the USA intervening in may and the war ending in August.

I still think the SAC and the ANZC would intervene. Lets bring someone else to help so decide this conflict That's exactly what I'm saying: Yreka is not alone, I haven't talk about Yreka vs the Civic Rights Party, I've talked about a democratic centralist side mostly centered in Yreka (that had in its history a democratic "color revolution" that led to the strong establishment of democratic values and institutions) vs the civic rights corrupted side. It's an ideological epicenter if you will. Why I haven't talked about other cities is because I couldn't find information about wich cities were jeffersonians (where did you get that info?) from wich canon article? There can't be personal assumption, evidence is everything here, rational logic to get a causality in events is everything here. There can be more people weighting in the opinion matter here, but that doesn't change the fact that the logic in my arguments still hold strong (I've asked you to get me a picture of supposed forces of those superpowers near the region to contradict my points, I'd like to see it now). It took two years for these superpowers to drive the hell angels out of the region in the mid-2000s despite being among the biggest military powers in the world simply because logic will tell they are so far away from a conflict that demand huge ressources in oil, weapon manufacturing, manpower, ammos and even more importantly all the ressources to TRANSPORT them all the way for more than 4,000 km AND to come back AND to bring after that troops, equipment and supplying to a heavily garded and hostile area. Same for SAC troops that would need to do this extremly costly and dangerous operation over 5,700 km. What reason do they really have to go all this way for a small patch of unstable land partially caused by their own mistakes? Give me a good reason. Also, as an extra argument against such intervention: the sociocultural context have changed since the mid 2000s, pacifist parties have been put into power in those superpowers, making them less militaristic and interventionnist and more diplomatic and relying on the League of Nations instead. They've got no motive to go this far into helping a side set on loosing to their eyes, located in a random patch of land. Another argument based on logic is simply this one: why, with limited time and ressource on your hands, would you want to demand help to faraway guys when there's a country that could easily help you more efficiently and quickly right next door? Next door that don't have to worry about attacking by the fortified sea since they can simply attack in a weak spot by land. From a strategy point of view (and the Yreka militia being professionaly trained and thus inclined to valorization of strategy when the very existence of their city governemnt is at risk from the outside, they'd valorize this over dependence to the countries that brought the very problems they are facing with) this makes way more sense. The independance idea makes even less sense considering it is ompletely surrounded by hostile totalitarian regimes (the rest of the MSP). Independance is let by widespread exceptionalism and valorisation of a different culture in a region or people, the Jefferson Nationalists are clearly not specifically attached to Yreka or the regions they hold a foothold in and their agenda clearly says they want a centralized government over the WHOLE region, a semi-nationalist sentiment for all the region and not just one city or subregion of people voting for them. Just put yourself in their heads: given the context it would be suicidal for them to do so, they'd be much enclined to accept the status quo (albeit a delicate one since the total censorship act of 2010) then shoot themselves in the foot for an idea not really popular among their own citizens. So it's clearly illogical. For the war, change the end to early july and you get me agreeing with the length and dates. In such a small region, there's no way it would last after the beginning of the US intervention three whole months. You must first sign your posts for reference at every post, then you must disprove my arguments wrong with logical arguments based on existing canon. Else they still stand and must be taken in the conception, Plain and simple. You already convinced me of a war as the way the MSP would logically end, now do it for the rest or agree with my points you can't find good arguments. It's basically Emile Zola except instead of characters lifes we try to predict with logic given the environement they are born and grow in, it's the entire world. Please to hear what you agree and what could be wrong (or not) about my arguments. SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:06, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

I assume that port oford is an nationlist stornghold because the nationlist founder was the mayor of port orford accoridng to the jefferson nationlist page. Here's a link ttps:// must coffess gold beach ,lakeview , ashland weed Susanville  being naitonlist strongholds are  my idea. . Beside Yerka and Port Orford Mitro did  not list any  nationlist storngholds beyond saying that several smaller cities were nationalist storngholds. Sine  gold beach ,lakeview , ashland weed Susanville are smaller cities in the msp I assume that they  could the smaller cities that are nationlist storngholdsGoldwind1 (talk) 17:39, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

Since time is falling short, here's what we'll do: we'll give a more brief and short view on the war. Not to say that the war itself wasn't rich in detailled context and battles and all of that, but that the actual articles (MSP and Jefferson) will do a brief overview of those complex events that will be free for someone later on to develop further. Here's how it will go: first the whole context behind it as I explained earlier will be there. Then, the war will break out as a democratic side consisting of Jefferson nationalists, pro-centralization people, pro-United States people, freedom activists, victims of the MSP and lower classes people most oppressed by the other side, a status quo side consisting of (naive) libertarians, pro-confederation people, oligarchs, crimelords, Civic Rights party members, totalitarians, corrupted power-thirsty politicians, ex-Hell Angels police other words people supporting a dysfunctional regime that benefit all the stinky hodge pot political and law enforcement class that was in place since the aftermath of DD in the region. One is centered around Yreka, another in Crescent City. Then, despite early victories the democratic side is loosing ground only to be in a critical spot when Yreka is near the frontline. Then, under internal pressure and the special demand for help from the Jefferson nationalists, the United States finally intervene and help the democratic side to push the status quo side towards ultimate defeat. Finally, the captured are put under Nuremberg-style trials where all the shady things happening from DD up until the defeat of the Civic Rights were revealed and broadcasted live, showing all attrocities, war crimes and human rights violations commited by that large loosely-connected gang. Victors and, surprisingly to the neutral public​​​​​, their intellectual figures, in a number of conferences, write a new consitution and society for the region now fully freed from the demons of its past. Pro-United States attitudes given the widely different treatment and support given to them by them compared to the superpowers rise, the ANZC and the SAC are publically condemned within the US west coast and some other places for their lack of action and their role in creating these MSP doomed from the start as they were. 

Now, for the third time, what do you agree on, regarding my points? They are still standing. And please take the time to fix your constant typos.

If you don't have any arguments left against these changes I demand you do them:

-Change the end of the war to be in early July

-Remove the TV network whom I didn't saw any way it could have been a thing given the context. And take inspiration in that whole radio thing I've talked about earlier (just read my earlier posts, it will be quick and easy to find don't worry).

-Write the war in your own words based on what I established, remember to make it a summary and to not add uncanon pre-war elements into it.

Please respond quickly

Excited to finish that dispute

SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:27, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

I made a few changes to the MSP page and the Republic of Jefferson Page.  I hope they are enough to satisfy you. If not you have my permission to make any changes you want.

Goldwind1 (talk) 14:22, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

I actually preffered the first name you choose for the last chapter of the MSP history. It suited better the tone of the chapter. If you agree with my ideas, I'd request you rewrite them in your own words because honestly I just didn't properly formulate them so it feels weird reading them under my raw akward wording.  I don't want to monopolize the creative process, in fact, every single post that I made contained a request for you to plead your point and integrate your ideas by using logic and context to unjustify my points. Yet, sadly, you didn't. I want to help you upgrading to the unique style of this timeline, to dare trying things, to dare defend your point....and instead you're giving (from what I read at least) the impression that everything you do is pointless, it's far from that. I just feel bad as I don't want to steal your fun by doing all the fun writing stuff. Come join me in participating! Go suggest changes to me, it's simply a matter of arguments. I'm convinced you can do it and prove some of my points wrong (you did twice earlier, it was a good thing). SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:40, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

I argued with you at the beginning of our dispute. You originally said that in the case of a civil war the rebels had no chance of winning. However my argument about how the Jefferson Nationalist controlled Yreaka, Port Orford and a few other cites and that these cites had thier own militias changed your mind. The victory of the rebels is the most important idea I had involving the MSP. I am willing to scaffice an invervention by the SAC and ANZC in favor of a invervtion by the USA if it means the rebels will win. I have made a few more change to the republic jefferson and MSP pages. I hope you are now stafied with my wording and that our dispute is over.Goldwind1 (talk) 13:30, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

Is our dispute overGoldwind1 (talk) 01:44, June 9, 2020 (UTC)

Now, would you let me try something on the article you have the rights to? Just an experiment. If you're not satisfied you'd be free to reverse anything you want of my changes (and you totally have that right by the way in the current context). Under these terms would you let me do these changes knowing you'd have the final say? It would consist of polishing the last chapter and adding a picture in the history section. Would it be okay?

By the way, regarding newspapers in the republic of Jefferson, you didn't have to cut them off. They were already present, realistic given context and canon within the timeline. Let's just say that in the months ahead of its formation, paper would logically not be the top priority and newspapers would thus be either on pause or made in one exemplary (displayed in public sight on a main square, kinda like in Kyrgyztan except in one exemplary nailed to a wall). That is, until the mid-late 2010s where paper supply and infrastructures would realistically be restored on a high enough scale and capacity to produce mass-scale newspapers.

Don't forget to put your signatures at the right place, just sayin'. SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:00, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

You have my permissionGoldwind1 (talk) 16:50, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

Now what do you think?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:24, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

It's good. So is our dispite over

Well if you sincerely think everything is fine now, sure. Now we need to talk about the Republic of Jefferson. If that's the case I can remove the "under the review" tag if all is settled. Is it okay for you?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:13, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

The only additon to the msp page I can think  of  the top of my head is a high ranking meamber of the Civic rights party fled to the imeprial state of Santa Cruz

You have permission to edit the Jefferson page. My onr request is this say something  of the SAC and  The ANZC have apologized for propping up the civic rights party and not sending aide to the yreka faction. The Anzc and SAC has since sent tons of forgin aid to the republic of Jefferson. The republic of Jefferson is still mad at  the SAC and ANZC and but they start to get over it. Goldwind1 (talk) 01:26, June 11, 2020 (UTC)

Does anybody still have complaints about my Republic of Jefferson Page or can I delete my proposal template.Goldwind1 (talk) 12:35, June 26, 2020 (UTC)

Here are my points:

1-Be a little more precise and add more stuff regarding history, it's a little short and a little imprecise when you read it ("elections where held in October", of what year?)

2-The "Populist Party" is too generic of a name. The sociocultural evolution of the world, being different, didn't led to the rise in public conscience of the term "populist". So another name would be better. Also what are the policies promoted by the parties? What made the "populist party" rise recently in popularity? For what reasons (anchored in current local reality and context)? Wouldn't there be other small third parties too? What types of public does each party attracts? Add more substance and clarity without making it a contrast in tone to other DD pages. 

3-For International relations, it doesn't put enough emphasis on the neglect of the two superpowers in properly understanding the situation before properly establishing a country in the region and trusting a political elite that was basically warlords, criminals and other bandits to rule a country thinking this political stability would lead to civilians gradually taking back control of the country. In other words, they didn't do their homework. The rooted antiamericanism present in the region for decades and its reasons should be noted here to add nuance. Perhaps that's the basis of one of the parties that would want to maintain isolation towards the USA to preserve independance, wanting to establish a new culture and society to build itself on. Basically ideological remnants of the Civic Rights Party and what led the region to be what it was for a long time (good and bad). Relations with Socialist Siberia should be detailled here and how they evolved since the MSP times.

4-The role of renewable energies and steam, as present in the MSP article, should also be added here. It's definitely not "the biggest wine maker in america", the MSP article states that the industry is small but growing. After an obvious setback by the war that damaged the vineyards, it's recovering right now. Chumash is definitely the main producer by large.

5-There should be a culture section just like in the MSP. How sport and education where affected by the war and trends in education of the 2010s? Were stadiums destroyed because of the conflict, what regions were the most affected by the war? Is there a high number of PTSD in the region due to near constant and stressfull impact of conflict?

6-Do you think the Jefferson statist flag could be an official flag for the country? It would be that sovereigntist party that pushed it's adoption that got accepted by the house. Leaving a somewhat confused population with the flag of a movement that was considered a joke that would never happened. It would lead to people that can still laugh making jokes about how they finally were capable of making it happens and laughing at the weird X's on the flag symbolising a no more existent issue. 

7-Add the USACanada83 template at the end of the page.

Feel free to debate on these changes and contest them if you don't agree regarding the context.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:32, July 6, 2020 (UTC)

I have acted on all your points besides 2 and 7.

I am having second thoughts about the Jefferson nationalist being The Republic of Jefferson. The Jefferson nationalist a single issue party and issue was turing the confederated MSP into the centralized Republic of Jefferson. I feel that once the MSP Become the Republic of Jefferson the natiolist would brake Into at least 2 parties. One party would probbly be a center right constertive party. The other would probably a be center left party. Do you think the center right or center left party would be more popularGoldwind1 (talk) 12:06, July 16, 2020 (UTC)

I Have just updated  the  poltics secton. Tell me what you think. PS how do you add the USACanada83 templateGoldwind1 (talk) 22:03, July 20, 2020 (UTC)

Add Template:''', then the name of the template('''USACanada83'''), then '''

I don't think such two opposite factions could coexist within a single party (here the nationalist party). Split those into two parties as it would make more sense i think. Also there is a movement for gay rights in Jefferson? That's what the right wing faction of the Nationalist party's attitude seems to suggest? I'd think it'd be wise to remove that part not out of homophobia but just because there isn't an article to properly explain the status of the LGBT around the world in this timeline. So from said article, one could foster the evolution and spread of ideas around certain parts of the world at certain times within the articles of the timeline. Remove, unless you have a better idea, that part: "be to be creative and" to only write about the People's progress party agenda wanting incentives to encourage entrepreneurship, else it's out of tone.

Beside that, It is almost complete.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:47, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

I have update the poltics secetion agian. My current change may be enough  but  I am not sure. I have removed the part about the nationlist having a right and left wing faction and made them pure right wing. Do you think  thingk naitonlist should still be in power maybe they lost  in 2016 to the people's progress party because do  the region taking a turn  the left do to right wing poltics being associted with the crupurt the  civic right party and the jefferson naitolist polces beign viewed as benfit a small elite cligueGoldwind1 (talk) 23:52, July 23, 2020 (UTC)

I would say  that  my   republic of jefferson page is ready for graudaiton. Does anybody objectGoldwind1 (talk) 16:01, July 29, 2020 (UTC)

I say no, there's still one big obstacle to it's "graudaiton": the grammar and the multiple typos present in your article (including MSP being wrongly reffered in the universities as MPS), they must be corrected first. Also remove the all-cap in your titles inside the culture section. Those are my last conditions.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:53, July 29, 2020 (UTC)

I hope my latest round of edits suffice to get my article graduated

It is, wait a week if no one else object and you're free to remove the label yourself. I'll take care of its integration into the template I made you put.

Good job.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:58, July 30, 2020 (UTC)

São Tomé and Príncipe

I wrote São Tomé and Príncipe. It fits together with pages I wrote years ago on Ambô and Bioko. I don't know to what extent it even needs to be with a proposal, since it sort of grows out of material that's "mine". But I'm labeling it as such for now, at least. Benkarnell (talk) 04:56, August 7, 2020 (UTC)

Several in the UK

  1. Kingdom of Scotland (1983: Doomsday)
  2. The United Towns of Mid Hertfordshire (1983: Doomsday)
  3. The Chilternate Republic (1983: Doomsday)
  4. 2017 OBN report on the former Greater London Area (1983: Doomsday)
  5. Irish-Scottish Highlands mutual co-operation treaty of 1987 (1983: Doomsday)
  6. 1985-7 Tayside Civil War (1983: Doomsday)
  7. Federation of Mid-Fife and Kinross (1983: Doomsday)
  8. Republic of Great Malvern (1983: Doomsday)
  9. Alliance of West Mercia (1983: Doomsday)
  10. United Communities of Norfolk (1983: Doomsday)

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 10:45, September 28, 2020 (UTC)

Upgrades and lore fixes done to:

  1. Celtic Alliance (1983: Doomsday) User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 17:47, October 8, 2020 (UTC)
  2. True British Army (1983: Doomsday) User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 17:47, October 8, 2020 (UTC)
  3. United Communities of Norfolk (1983: Doomsday) User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 23:08, October 10, 2020 (UTC)

Some Proposals I've been working on

Hello! To anyone I haven't "met" here yet, I'm GryffindorKrypton, and I've been working on this time for the past few months. I've been updating some fo the older articles while tinkering with some ideas of my own. After a few months of this, I think I'm ready to bring forward some of my proposals for discussion. I've organized them into categories:


George Shultz - Reagan's Secretary of State. I've put together a proposal on what his post-Doomsday bio could be like. 

Admiral William H. McRaven - The US Atlantic Remnant canonically has a Commissioner in charge of its military forces, but the page doesn't name any of them. I've put together a page on Adm. McRaven with the idea that he could serve in this role. 

Pete Buttigieg - Born a couple years before Doomsday in a region of Indiana that canonically wasn't bombed, but saw its population head south. In this timeline, I'm proposing that he become the Mayor of Evansville, with room for higher positions in the future potentially. 

Condoleezza Rice - Was at Stanford on Doomsday in OTL. I've traced a potential post-Doomsday bio for her, in which she serves in various teaching and diplomatic roles in California. 

Joe Torre - Was living outside Atlanta on Doomsday during his tenure as manager of the Braves. My proposal has him escaping in the first wave of evacuations, serving for a while as a high school baseball coach, before eventually playing a role in organizing larger-scale baseball tournaments in more recent decades. 


CARICOM - A real life organization of Caribbean nations. My proposal has CARICOM becoming defunct for a period after Doomsday before being reaffirmed in 2020 by the Caribbean nations. 


New Jersey Skylands - the leafy northwestern region of New Jersey, which according to canon wasn't bombed, but otherwise is not mentioned. I've envisioned a modest survivor state based mostly around agriculture and trading hand-crafted items. 

Torrington - the canonical capital of the reconstituted United States. It didn't have its own article yet, so I figured I'd give it a try. 


Bollywood - India's Hindi-language movie industry. I've come up with some ideas to have its post-Doomsday story parallel that of India as a whole, with a fall after Doomsday and a gradual return in the 90's that ends up playing a part in the cultural movement towards the birth of the UIP. I've also detailed its potential relationship with the UIP government in the decades since then. Its post-Doomsday existence is already canonical, but I thought it'd be fun to have a full article exploring the world of Bollywood in the 1983: Doomsday timeline. 

The James Bond franchise - This was another very fun proposal to write. I've put together an idea where the franchise is revived in New Britain (similar to the American expats in the ANZC rebooting old US comics as American Comics) as a series of novels, comic books, and radio plays. 


I also wanted to bring forward two major suggestions about existing pages, suggestions that I think make sense but are probably too big/consequential to do without a group discussion. 

President George H. W. Bush - Sadly, Pres. Bush passed away in 2018. Given that he died from natural causes, I think its likely that in this timeline he'd probably pass away around the same time from similar causes. If the group agrees, I'd like to write a conclusion to his story (though with room for more events to be added in before his death and with regards to his legacy). 

The Union Interim Parliament - On a much less grim note, I wanted to suggest a potential change for the UIP. I've recently adopted the page, and I think that nearly 20 years into its reign, its unlikely that the UIP's leaders would still be referring to their nation-state as "Interim." At this point, according to the canon map, it controls the vast majority of India's former territory (actually, the already-written description says it has returned all of them), and it's been in power for decades now. I think by now the UIP would probably have dropped the "Interim" name and have started referring to itself by something with India in the name again. After all, the new version of the United States dropped the "Provisional" part of its name in 2010, so I think there's already precedent in canon for the Indian government to simply refer to itself as one of those names by now rather than as the "Interim" parliament. Furthermore, according to existing canon, the League of Nations has already recognized it as the government of India as of 2008. Perhaps most significantly, I think the UIP's leadership would be looking to visually solidify their legitimacy as the rulers of India. 

So here are my name suggestions: 

- Union of India

- Unified Indian Parliament

- Union Parliament of India

- Republic of India 

- OTHER: If anyone has another idea for the revised name, feel free to share! 

Anyway, I look forward to your feedback! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Okay, I'll start with the people and organizations.

-For Schultz, everything seems realistic and coherent with canon. Liked how you integrated the crisis of the late 80s into his bio as it would certainly have been this way under such circomstances. Just a little question : wouldn't he teach Industrial Economics instead of diplomacy at the Canberra University considering he have a PHD and was once a teacher on that subject at Chicago University? Wouldn't that make more sense?

-Nothing to say about McRaven.

-About Pete Buttigieg. Serving in a small navy with such a uniform makes no sense. Wouldn't he choose a land infantry squadron or something? Also the whole trip to South Bend needs changes, according to the Indiana page no Kentucky military scouts ever went there (just scouts from Superior once in the 90s and another time in 2009 : "Kentucky have already done so [scouting Indiana] in the south") so with the existing canon, this whole segment cannot happen under its current form (unless you would want to reform the canon to correct a lack of realism but let's say South Bend is quite far away from the Commonwealth of Kentucky so I really don't see how he or Kentucky would have the occasion to go to the far north of Indiana). Another point is: in what college did he went to? Were there colleges that survived DD in the region in the first place? Why did he go to college? How was he able to afford college? I'd like of you to give me clear arguments and reasons to answer all these questions to justify it within your article (or dejustifying it accordingly or just modify it).

-Condoleezza Rice. Your article you should add more details and be more clear so someone who doesn't know who she is (like me) know how she went from Alabama to a Carter administration job to Denver to California. How did she gain her reputation as a Soviet specialist? Did the fallout affected her area (be careful to not have a version different from canon here)? Warning: Remember that the Municipal Pacific States only came to be in the second half of the 2000s so you're making a lot of big contradictions here. Even more in contradiction: look at how far the MSP region is from Santa Cruz, not to forget all the nuked areas in the way just to arrive at an unstable warlords-driven living hell lacking in everything whom the terryfying word of mouth about the crual Boss Jones come out spreading throughout the west coast. Unless her colleagues were suicidal or just stupid, I don't think they would want to go there. The California republic is not better by much: the government in the second half of the 90s collapsed and they are victims of foreign attacks, they'll only reform in 2006, de facto 2003. It was pretty much anarchy until then. With what path will they go to anywhere? Chumash? On civil war. Sierra Nevada? In a Spokane war of some sort (not much details). The only somewhat safe place to go would be Visalia and be accepted residing there by the authorites by doing manual labour there until a better option could be found. Then when the California republic would reform and actually be stable, her whole gang of intellectuals could go take refuge there realistically around 2006-7 and start working at that college before she go do her diplomatic thing. I wonder under such a story if Visalia would accept her (or if she would feel comfortable enough to do it given her record up there of fleeing the place) as a representative of the new California republic. Big big changes needed.

-Joe Torre. Were these caravans actually a thing? What was your source for these? Were they even safe? Beside that, everything seems fine.

-CARICOM. I think French should be an official language considering it's wide use in the carribeans (with the presence of the RTFA and two members of CARICOM that are Haiti and French Guyanne). I think it should be explicitely mentionned that its goal is not to form a geopolitical political bloc, just an economic, diplomatic and cultural alliance. It's because otherwise, neutral wealthy French Guyanne would never have joined. It makes CARICOM more likely to create interest in membership when not having to compromise for member countries their foreign policy. I'd also think it would look nice to add small-scale flags left of the members states in their list. Also, why not make a template to include the members countries? Look at other templates of the timeline for inspiration.

I'm tired, so I'll take a break of review. You'll have to contend of those reviews for today ;D

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:42, June 24, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back and ready to finish the review. 

-New Jersey Skylands. Your map seems correct according to official weather data and references used for this timeline. I'd however say that there would be a bigger refugee crisis considering the alarm that went on some time before the strikes, giving the chance for some to exit the cities of Philadelphia and Delwark. It's a bit too optimistic in that regard concerning the low level of refugees. It would be more chaotic in the beginning. Also explaining how they manage their currency and how they came to be in contact with other states in the region(according to ways that don't clash or contrast in tone with the canon). Also, how did they got zeppelins? How in the world did the east coast, with all the difficulties concerning any form of global intercontinental trade, would have in its possession zeppelins from the other side of the atlantic? I don't buy it. They are just starting to fabricate them for essex and southern england. Sorry. Also, could you explain the sociocultural factors that led to it being a "hotbed of american nolstalgia"? What led to it realistically being this way? You should also add "region" after talking about Pennsylvania because there's no pennsylvanian state as of right now and would reflect better the situation you seems to talk about in your article, encompassing the various survivor states. It might surely be just me, but I think naming a history chapter after a bon jovi song is a bit out of touch and contrasting the general style of the timeline, not looking really "encyclopedia-style". Almost last point, how is their political system? How it is structered and what posts and roles that goes with them are? For instance, what is the power and role of this "governor lieutenant governor"? Is it like a parliamentary system with an elected head of state and a prime minister? It must look like it came right of the local people discussions and minds given the historical context. Last point, is it part of the United Communities? If canonize its role and history must be present in its neighbours pages and the UC page or any other article where it could have contributed (while respecting the editorial guidelines of asking proper permission or adopt them). 

-Torrington. A map pointing out its location would be nice. You should contact an expert from the experts page if you're not confident in doing it yourself. I'd suggest talking about how and why it came to be choosed as the capital. Beside that, everything looks fine. LOVE the pictures, especially that one with the horse carrier and the bicycles. You truly makes it more vibrant and relatable with these quality, canon-respecting, pictures. 

-Bollywood. To be frank, I don't know a thing about Bollywood. But there are a few missing things in my eye. First, where is the Shak Ruk Khan movie "Swadesh" mentionned by the UIP article's Bolywood section? The first years that were propaganda mentionned on that page? Also, since history changed, wouldn't Khan come up with a different name for his studio? Or was the name popular with him long before it to the point it would be certain to come up in his mind despite DD and the collapse of India? Just a point. Also wouldn't the early years be boosted with a certain xenophobia because of Doomsday and the collapse of India creating fear and hate towards those percieved as "foreign", affecting relations with other countries? 

-James Bond. Who had the rights in the 1990s of James Bond when the buyers got the rights? If they bought it it means someone legally detained the right at that moment. Was there a local section of MGM that survived (probably not)? If no one has it, it means it becomes public domain and free to use, making a huge difference. Sean Connery was probably alive in andalusia in his villa. As to why he didn't stayed there, beats me. Perhaps Granada was dangerous and warlordy (wich I can only guess as no real explicit canon info I was able to find) because Granada doesn't have its own article despite being a canon state (annexed militarily by the Spanish Regency in 2011). For the first post-DD novel, I like the concept but I would add the motif as to why he went there: spying and preventing corrupt officials of the dictator in place, who are illegally selling weapons to jihadists in Lebanon to attack UN peacekeepers. Not only does Bond loose contact with the MI6, the people he was supposed to countain and demask, with now no more clients, used these weapons against each other (with or without proxies) in a power vacuum in order to assure their power and wealth from weapons production survive and take new highs in a manufactured war made at the expense of the somalis civilians. Bond, who's gadgets are of little use in a situation that is out of one man's control, retire into his friend and helper with his former mission's house in a somali village helping locals against warlords as you say. When rescuing the Bond girl of the novel of some warlords, she tells him the existence of New Britain. They make out together. Then, Bond receive a visit from the new MI6 who request him for a mission that he accept because "duty is always duty": his targets from his old mission have now unified their forces in acquiring abandonned Soviet secret nuclear weapons from Ethiopia that they plan to use against New Britain that is now threatening their power and business by militarily intervening to stabilize the region. Bond finds his old somali ennemies that now recognize him as a spy from years prior, teasing him about him "fleeing his past" and boosting about how they will rule the world now that Allah through Doomsday gave them the chance to do so. Bond manage to save the day, ending the last chance the warlords had to preserve their old order against the New British that now ended the civil war under a new democratic government whom the bond girl and his old local aide that housed him are part of. As the new "less enthusiast about him" M leading it orders him to come install himself in New Britain to receive further missions, Bond and his yet-not-another-girlfriend part their ways. When she asks why does he think it is good for him to live like that instead of staying, he replied that it is what he always was as this recent unearthing of the past (with the somalis of his corner of africa mission) made him realize: his way of life always was to fight another day....epic end. With the equivalent of a post-credit movie short in a novel, Bond learns all the stuff about Q and Miss Moneypenny as you wrote it. Cool version of your story no?

Anyway, the passage about traversing Africa is just one adventure too much in a single novel, it just would distract too much from the plot who otherwise always stays at various degrees in focus. I don't see how the rereleases of the original novels would have trivia if they weren't linked to the author or things he wrote or something. Were the novels really that popular before Doomsday? I thought only the movies did (but I'm not a expert on the subject either). Were there any post "to live another day" graphic novels that got more mixed reviews? It seems everything is the best critical and commercial success in the world here (just a personal opinion). Especially if you consider that it could be a public domain character given the arguments that I gave wich would to all sorts of Bond stories of varying styles and quality. Bootleg Bond :D

-Now for your big changes you should debate them in the talk page of their respective pages as I think it would fit better to reach their creator given the type of change you want to make. I see nothing wrong with these changes. Just make sure that the reaction to the death of George W. Bush is properly measured, without underplaying or exagerating its impact in the public conscience and the intellectual debate, the sort of questions and homages he would receive or would be asked after his death. For India name change, if you didn't already adopt it you need permission or the role of caretaker through adoption to do such a change (and change its name in all times it is mentionned in list of current day countries or members of something India is part of). Make sure to talk about the previous name in the article so we don't forget this history period. I preffer Union of India as, given my hypothesis with the sociocultural elements into it, the "union" needs to be part of it. "republic of India" would never be liked by the population and anything with "parliamentary" in it for the long term would just sound redundant.

-Now, for ALL your articles about people, organization and locations, even if it looks kinda stylish with the big picture at the top right, all of this must be replaced by an infobox with stats because the current version of them clashes too much with the style of the rest of 1983:Doomsday. It's in order to make it more uniform to have an infobox respecting the inclusion of expected things and proportions of pictures. It's just to respect the established norms and aesthetics for the timeline, sorry.

I'm now done. Now I want to hear you now, even if it will be hard for you discuss all my points individually since it'S all packed together. I'd like to hear to what degree you agree or disagree with my ideas and what should be kept or changed. Hope to see you soon, you did a good effort.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:55, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hi SigmaHero045, thanks for your guidance and input! I've taken a look at your suggestions and made some changes to my proposals.

Shultz and McRaven: Glad things look good here! For Shultz, I figured he could teach a course on diplomacy because of his personal experience with it, esp. after the trying times of Doomsday. Maybe he could teach both diplomacy and industrial economics? 

Pete Buttigieg: For Kentucky's exploration of Indiana, it looks like the notation about Kentucky's expedition to southern Indiana was made on Feb 24, 2010. Given that it hadn't happened by that specific point, could Pete Buttigieg's unit's expedition to northern IN happen later the same year? Given that southern Indiana is part of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, I don't think it's unrealistic that they'd want to send expeditions to see what became of the northern half of the former state. 

As for Buttigieg's branch of the military, I wrote him as being in the Kentucky Navy because he served in the Navy in real life (that's his actual Navy uniform in the picture), and its already canon that Kentucky has a small Navy. I imagined and wrote that he'd mostly be involved with fighting raiders along the waterways in and near the Commonwealth. 

For the part about college, it's already canon that the University of Southern Indiana existed and was operational in Evansville. I just added a detail to Buttigieg's bio that he studied history with an eye towards public service. Given that canon already has colleges operating in the region, I think that its not unreasonable to assume that there were a fair amount of young future professionals looking to get credentialed. I think it's almost certain that prices would've dropped to a small amount in this timeline from the greatly reduced demand. 

Condoleezza Rice: Yeah I admittedly wrote that proposal in a bit of a rush. I will take a look at how to make some changes for how she ends up in the California Republic. 

For her background, she worked for President Carter at the State Department starting in 1977. Previously, she'd been mentored at college by professor and anti-communist former diplomat Josef Korbel. She also served at Stanford University's program on arms control and served a Ford Foundation Fellowship on Soviet studies and international security. You're right, I will take your advice and expand on how her background would affect her reaction. 

CARICOM: I've made the suggested edit about adding French. I found the template for organizations and I've added that. I'm still not sure how to do what you suggested with the template for member countries with their flags. Would you mind advising me on which template to use for those tasks? Thanks! 

Joe Torre: Thanks! As for the caravan part, I know canon has trade networks springing up by that time period. The use of the specific word "caravan" was my idea though, merely because I think at that point in time it probably would have felt like the safest way to travel between more distant settlements in the 1990's of this timeline. 

New Jersey Skylands: I've added a crisis early on in the post-Doomsday history that shows the tensions from what you described and ultimately serves as the impetus for the region's consolidation into a unified survivor state. The American nostalgia part I ascribe due to a combination of the region's OTL political conservatism as well as residents feeling isolated from the rest of the continent and longing for the good old days when they were part of a continent-spanning nation with mass media and transportation.

I've added a section fleshing out the details of the state government. Also, I think you misread the infobox: Governor and Lieutenant Governor are two separate positions. The infobox just places them one above the other. I left them blank for now because I haven't yet figured out who to put in those positions as of 2020 just yet. 

For the part about the zeppelins, I seem to have made an error. I read about the zeppelins in some of the other articles and erroneously made the assumption that they were in operation in North America as well. Is it possible that they could have been created by Delmarva or another large survivor state in the region by 2020? If not, I can just remove that part. 

I agree that the New Jersey Skylands could join the United Communities. After looking at your suggestion on this and reading the UC's page, I came up with an idea: I noticed that the UC has apparently been engaged in various fallout cleanup projects; perhaps instead of zeppelins being a means of trade between the New Jersey Skylands and South Jersey, the Skylands could instead partner with the UC to organize a cleanup operation to clear fallout at some of the thinnest parts of the fallout line separating North and South Jersey. They could perhaps target the thinnest points in this line of fallout to open up some corridors for trade between Skylands-controlled North Jersey and Delmarva-controlled South Jersey by 2020. I think this could be a good and much more sensible and canon-based alternative to my original zeppelin idea. 

Torrington: Thanks so much for your kind words! I will make an attempt at creating the map on my own at first, but if that fails, could you please point me to the correct page to ask for someone to help with that? Thanks!

Also, I've added some new material to the Torrington page again, including a city flag and more of the details you suggested. I took some inspiration from existing pages about the US Continuity of Government plans to map out Torrington's role in the rebirth of the USA, based mostly on what's already been written. 

Bollywood: I did mention the propagandistic aspect when I talked about how officials of the Indian rump government encouraged the distribution of 90's era movies to help encourage a rise in reunification sentiment, and I talked about how this helped fuel the movement that led to the formal creation of the UIP. I could definitely expand more on this point if you like! I could definitely see movies after the formal creation of the UIP being directed to play up the Indian patriotism aspect to encourage stability. 

As for the name of Red Chillies Entertainment, I did some searching on why Shah Rukh Khan named it that. The most common answer I could find was that he did to symbolize the "spiciness" of Indian culture and entertainment, as well as one person claiming that it was a tribute to his father who had formerly sold red chillies (dunno if that part is true or not). Either way, whichever it is, neither of those would've been changed by Doomsday, since peppers and spice are pretty ubiquitous and iconic in Indian culture. Also from a pragmatic standpoint, keeping the name the same as in OTL makes it a bit easier to use OTL posters and pictures in this timeline if need be haha. 

James Bond: As far as I can tell, I think any executives who held the IP rights to the franchise were living in places that were targeted on Doomsday. The process I came up with for how these New British execs get the rights in court was based directly on the canon article describing how the creators of American Comics got the rights to those. 

For the part about Sean Connery, I put him where I did for pretty much the exact reasons you described. I couldn't find much detail on the area where he was living other than that it was not targeted but that it seems to have lost population anyway, so I figured a mass exodus to a more stable region of Spain made sense. 

I will definitely incorporate a lot of the story ideas you put here for the story that brings Bond back. A couple quibbles though: I think Bond would need to hear the rumors of New Britain from more than one person before he goes there. I think he'd probably have been in a state of despair and pessimism after Doomsday. That's why I have him only deciding to go after hearing the rumors from multiple groups of travellers. 

I also envisioned the part about his battle through Africa towards NB as being a few chapters, but not a massive chunk of the book, largely because I want the story to devote a lot of time and attention to the emotional weight of Bond arriving in this unexpected (to him) British survivor nation, starting to integrate into it, and then having to fight to defend his new home from the warlord. I definitely do like your idea of having the warlord group being previously associated with the villain he was fighting at the time of Doomsday though; brings it full circle quite nicely. 

For the re-releases, I figured the trivia parts could be stuff that was already known to hardcore Bond fans before Doomsday (and the novels indeed had a strong fanbase) but that the younger post-Doomsday generation wouldn't have had any reason to know until now. 

President Bush: Agreed. I will try to think of a tone-appropriate way to write his death and include various reactions to it. When I have something a bit more specific, I'll add it to his talk page and back here on this page too. 

India: Yep, I already adopted the India/UIP page a while back. When I put the request to adopt it, I stated my idea about changing the name on both the article's talk page and the creator's talk page right from the start. 

I concur with you that "the Union of India" sounds like the most likely name. It incorporates part of the "Union Interim Parliament" name, it makes sense for the sociopolitical state of post-Doomsday India, and there's actually real life precedent in the sense that nationally-administered regions of India in OTL are referred to as "Union territories," so I think the average Indian would already associate the word Union with the government of India. 

Also, I frankly like how "the Union of India" sounds haha. 

Do you think 2008 would work as a date for the name change to go into effect? I ask because that's when the League of Nations granted them official recognition as the legitimate government of India. Also, before I even adopted the page, it already said at the top that India had succeeded in returning all its breakaway regions to the fold via conquest. Would it make sense, given that, to update the page with a new map to reflect this? 

Infoboxes: I have begun the process of adding them, though I'm still kinda clumsy at it. 

For the articles that seem to be ready, such as George Shultz, William McRaven, CARICOM, Joe Torre, and Torrington, how soon do you think it would make sense to remove the proposal template and canonize them (if they're ready)? 

One last note: I want to sincerely thank you for your constructive input and advice. You do a GREAT job of being friendly and welcoming while also maintaining the standards of the Wiki! Thank you sincerely! 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I don't know how I wasn't able to see your post, the notification didn't reach me for some reason, sorry about being aware of your post so late. It really past me by. So when I wrote that post on your talk page, I wasn't aware at all of what you wrote here on the 9th of July.

Also, I'd like to apologize for my rude attitude in my post the other day, I shouldn't had to be that unforgiving for a simple unawareness of the required tone for the timeline. It wasn't your fault. I didn't want to offend you or anything, I'm really sorry. (Still, beside the overreactive attitude, I still made valid points concerning many things, wich I'll properly reword and reexplain in my real attitude you complimented me on). It was just the bad memories from another user who made similar mistakes but who, unlike you, harassed me in a oblivion that just frustrated me back then. Those last words of you were really really kind, I'm glad to be a good mentor for you and that my explanations are fair enough and supportive enough (it really gently surprised me). I hope my outburst from the other day won't change your vision of me in your note, you'd be right if that isn't the case.

Now without further ado, let's get to your points about these 64 different things in one place :D

Chultz: As any University teacher will tell you, teaching two vastly different subjects at the same time is just a pure pain at such high academic level. So it's fair to say he'd choose something he has actual academic experience with.

Buttigieg: I don't really see the point of why they couldn't take the word of Superior that South Bend is a ghost town damaged by time, lack of care and raiders that just swoop the place. I mean why would they spend so much ressources going so far away (considering he lives in the commonwealth of Kentucky and that's REALLY far away from northern Indiana) just to get the same conclusions as them and coming back, spending so much for achieving nothing new. Also why would the Commonwealth of Kentucky be that much interested in northern Indiana considering there's some pretty bad doomsday strikes in its center that shield them from potential dangers from there?

Also, permit me to laugh cause it's an hilarious mistake but, young unitedstatian, the navy they mention in the Commonwealth of Kentucky and the one you imagine are not at all the same thing. When talking about "possessing a small navy", they're talking about an actual navy (with boats and stuff) and not a Navy seal squadron. So for a navy set to patrol lakes on a role historically linked to preventing smuggling, managing coast guards and fighting illegal fishing or other illegal activities on water (in lakes anyway), I think you now figure out why I think he's a bit overequipped for such a task. I get that the late 80s here are more riskier than in our timeline for a navy, that there's human trafficking, smuggling of the few drugs still avaible, even the possibilty of armed groups trying to insurrect in local areas to establish warlord chiefdoms but still, with camouflage and all that, he's a bit paranoiac you might think with that picture. For the college thingie, I was aking how he managed to get the funds necessary to college and why he would go there in the first place. What jobs did he do? Were the parents responsible for convincing him to still go to college against the general mentality in rural Indiana at this point that doesn't see the point of going there? Also why did his parents took refuge in Kentucky instead of a closer city-state like Muncie or Marion in north east Indiana (who don't have their own page by the way)? To make my point more clear, just look at this map and tell how in the world would they choose Evansville in the southwest? and for the strikes in Indiana wich includes Indianapolis, Fort Wayne and Gary among others.

Condoleeza Rice: Yeah, doesn't make much sense for her to go to anarchist California republic. I sincerely thinks she won't make it alive unless it goes the only sort of way I could imagine: to Visalia and even with that I'm still not 100% convinced the king in place wouldn't do bad things to her as an intellectual.Good that you go expend her background.

CARICOM: You're mixing two points I've made. First for the flags thing, I was thinking about something like this. For the template, I was talking about you making a template like this, with a small CARICOM flag on each side of the title like this. How about you give it a try to help you get more used with what this wiki can do and I'll give the finishing touch if needed? If you wouldn't like my finishing touch you could correct it and boom! A template to integrate to your page. The most important part is having a rational smile on your face like this . See? It worked!

Joe Torre: What canon are you reffering to? Could you show me the pages you used as reference for the trade "caravans"? I'd like to see them. Especially in regard to safety as, how nice and philanthropic he might be, I don't think he'd be willing to put his life in danger like that if it was so risky for these caravans to do trade. Are these caravans even accepting ordinary non-trading people like him? Also, I've read about his passion for horses races, might add something about that (without making him the messianic figure that brought back, on his own, horse races throughout the United States to interdimensional acclaim :D   ). Horses are also a lot more required for transport and other so I don't think there's really people willing to let valuable horses be used for the mere sake of racing for bets or just seeing the point of horse racing anymore. So that could be a realistic lose for him.

New Jersey Skylands: Love how you added a justification for the term "skylands" and the geography of this place. Makes sense now and help give the imagination a better picture of the land. I'd squish down a little the regiment picture as it is a bit too wide (use px to help). This is definitely my favourite of your articles, not only is it well written, it is coherent, well showed and makes total sense (levels of "why has no one thought about this before"). 92% great. Only thing is to add the current lieutenant-governor and, unless you plan an article to list them all, remove the url in the infobox. Beside that, 100% ready to be a canon article. I still think naming a section after a Bon Jovi or a Bruce Springsteen song is a bit out of style concerning the usual style of DD.

Zeppelins: No, just no. There's just no way it would work with the public mind. It would be seen as farfetched. Small STOL/seaplanes only could make air travel possible depending on the locations, all the oil needed raises some doubts however. Sorry.

Torrington: When you need experts in map making, you can always count on the Experts page. I suggest Imperium Guy. Now, what I akwardly said in my critic on your talk page is that cycling pubs like that have no way to be there given they were invented in the Netherlands in 1997, it was a nice try but it's just not realistic. Again, the flag is beautiful and totally fit the context...but (sorry I'm not doing it just to complain)...the explanation behind the blue bar is still cheesy and a contrast to other DD articles, it just feels out of place. You're doing great but be careful not to deviate too much from what is written.

Bollywood: Yes, please expend on that propaganda era, it could be interesting. For the name of the studio, you won me over your arguments, I'll accept them.

James Bond: Haha, I'm happy you liked my story. I put a lot of heart into it despite never having seen a James Bond movie nor read one of the novels he appeared in. I don't like the idea of him going throughout Africa, even if it is small, because it makes the novel loose focus into too many subplots and this one isn't really necessary nor relevant to the plot. It's nice for the ending to go full circle I think, especially the hidden symbolism that could have a meaningful effect to the readers of a post-DD world. I don't know about you but that whole arc about him adapting to civilian life would fit better as an epilogue because it feels so different from the main story and would have a more powerful impact at the end, leaving it as bittersweet. James Bond in civilian everyday life with no exotism feels out of character. It is more interesting I think that he don't have a home to fight for, leaving the character into a relatable position with his psychology being more at the center of importance in the book, having a past catch up to him with the attitude you described. Also, why not make the Bond Girl a daredevil marine life specialist who got cut off from her native Australia into Somalia? That would be great and on point with the message. Remember that I said that the group of officials from pre-DD Somalia ARE the vilains and warlords. They are one and the same, making the comeback encounter more entertaining. Why would there be travellers in a war-torn Somalia? Getting orders to come to New Britain after the mission is straightfoward and more realistic within the story as the british forces pacified the region, ready to take him back. For Connery, ok fair enough, good reasoning. Same for the trivia, I wasn't aware of such a big fanbase for the novels. Now, remember that American Comics was the result of the justice system of Australia (and it's special link with the ex-USA giving it a sort of spiritual succesor flair due to the integration of one over the other), not New Britain. Some justice systems have no copyright laws or made public domain all pre-doomsday things. 

Bush: Not just for the death but the WHOLE article needs to have the appropriate tone as I too harshly explained the other day. The US troops definitely, in such a psychological and world state, would crack down and commit war crimes, including rapes and abitrary out of sight executions. It was first and foremost for the USA a military asset going away of their empire, perhaps later more human reasoning to intervene in Hawaii when it was clear they couldn't have any hope of maintaining it as part of the US given history both ancient and recent...needing to save face in other words given their responsability in letting them down into civil and nuclear war. It is an invasion no matter how you look at it. The 1992 election needs a section also (but you have plans for that I'm sure).

India name: I know right? It sounds so good. However that part about annexing is really bugging me, it doesn't look like Tamil Nadu would be annexed nor Sikhim as they have strong historical opposition to be part of India. It doesn't look it was the result of a consensus so I don't know what to make of it. You should talk with Imperium Guy about that, perhaps I'm wrong. But for such a union the caretakers and the community of DD must all approve of such a decision based on evidence leading to it and I don't know if it canonically happened. 2008 sounds like a logical good choice for the name change. Just make sure to add a segment mentionning the old name. Also, perhaps you could add maps from the page's talk page if they can serve to illustrate the evolution of the borders of India and the breakaway states.

For articles like Mcgraven wich we 100% agreed upon on all details, according to the editorial guidelines it needs one week without anyone objecting to a post you made saying you will canonize said article. Once the post stating this intention is posted, that a week passed, you can remove the banner and integrate it into corresponding categories and templates.

That's pretty much it, still need some experience but you'll get to it soon enough. Have a nice day. SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)


Hello, I'm back after a hiatus (been very busy lately!), but I'd like to put forward some of those proposals for ratification:

George Shultz

William McRaven


New Jersey Skylands

Joe Torre

CARICOM - Although for this one, SigmaHero045, I think I will need help adding that flag template you were talking about. I tried to do it, and for some reason it wasn't working. I'd definitely appreciate the assistance! Thanks!

If anyone objects, please let me know! If there are no objections, I will canonize them in a week's time! Greatly appreciate everything, guys! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Glad to see you back GryffindorKrypton, i and several others are right now working on reviving 1983DD, if you want to join us we mainly talk using the discord's server. User: Mal3ssio97 10:33, 17 October 2020

Regarding New Jersey Skyland, I have a few concerns:

  • Bethlehem was destroyed, presumably by a R-36 warhead (750 kiloton). This would have raked the area with fallout.
  • It is canon that northern New Jersey is essentially uninhabitable from fallout due to strikes on Philadelphia and New York
  • The state seems far too developed, given its isolated location, and the fact that the survivor population would likely be in the thousands or tens of thousands
  • The nation I have completed, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna (1983: Doomsday) only joined the UC in 2018 due to its isolation. New Jersey would likely be worse off. It was heavily debated between myself and several moderators over the timeline, but it was agreed that after 2015 would be realistic.
  • Due to fallout patterns, refugees from Scranton and Wilkes Barre would be forced west and south, in Susquehanna it is stated that refugees end up in Berwick and Hazleton
  • Given the location of the country, it is unlikely for there to be significant amounts of tourism. Radiation from the New York metro and southern NJ would be a significant issue, it is an isolated nation, and the economy would be focused around people surviving. They don't have the resources to rebuild major cities.
  • Minor nitpick: Phillipsburg, PA is in Centre County

Daeseunglim (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello! So for the NJ Skylands, it's canon that northEASTERN NJ was irradiated. The existing fallout map from the canon article on New Jersey as a whole shows the northwest as not hit. The wind patterns in the region typically go from west to east, so the fallout from Hudson and Essex Counties and the rest of northeastern NJ would be blowing towards the ruins of NYC, Connecticut, the Long Island Sound, and the Atlantic Ocean, and the closest civilization in its path would probably be the Outer Lands to the east.

I do mention difficulties in survival and a significant drop in population in the 1980's, which I have now clarified as being as a result of fallout from Bethlehem, though I hadn't put an exact number on the long-term survivors.

I don't think of this place as overly "developed." It's mostly wilderness and farm towns that already existed pre-Doomsday. The society there would indeed be very agrarian. The travelers I envisioned starting to slowly arrive by 2020 would be a small trickle of people, not a massive horde. I'm picturing that at this point, recreational travel is only just barely starting to re-emerge, and is not yet a major industry.

For the UC part, I can change the date of joining to closer to present day.

Also, the Phillipsburg I'm talking about in the article is Phillipsburg, New Jersey in Warren County.

Best regards,

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton


  1. List of Presidents of Impfondo (1983: Doomsday)
  2. Impfondo (1983: Doomsday)

User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:38, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Subalpine Federation 

I have revived the page about the Subalpine Republic, it has been agreed also by Thewolvesden and by Benkarnell that this page does fit into the lore of 1983: Doomsday and so it can be added again as a proposal Col. James Hsu 23:01, 28th September 2020. 

I'm moving this to the Proposals section, since that's what it is. And I. must point out that the conversation on Discord was between James Hsu and Thewolvesden - I wasn't actually involved and haven't had time to read this yet. Benkarnell (talk) 20:55, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

How can it even coexist with the Alpine Federation? And do you imagine all the wars and geopolitic that would have to be rewritten to make it work?

17:55, October 3, 2020 (UTC)SigmaHero045 (talk)

What do you mean by that ? And the Alpine Confederation is one of the most important allied of the federation, also not that much articles need to be rewritten in order to be fit into the lore. Only a couple since it change only Italy Mal3ssio97 03/10/2020 

I think this could work, but it needs some significant changes. In general, it's too big, too prosperous, and emerges too early. This does create conflicts with canonical information about the region.
The central change that needs to happen is the description of how the federation came to be in 1991. A peaceful referendum of all the communities of the area. If this became canon, the whole history of the region would not make sense. If this alliance were capable of good civil administration over such a big area at this time, why wouldn't they simply unite with Genoa and Tuscany too? A state like that, with its affairs clearly in order, would have become the driver of Italian reunification. But we know that Italy is not united. That means that the pockets of control in the 80s and 90s were small, struggling, and most of all non-contiguous. So 1991 could be when some surviving villages and refugee camps in the area entered into some kind of alliance. Later they could establish a more regular government, using the 1848 republic as a model. But even then, I don't think it would be the sedate referendum portrayed here.
In terms of geopolitics, what has been known about this area until now was that it's part of the Alpine Confederation's sphere of influence. That should not change with this new discovery. All existing maps show that Alpine troops have a presence here; that means at least a base and a guarantee of free passage through the territory.
A few other issues that need to be addressed:
  • The population: I doubt there is a single spot in Europe that has a higher population now than in 1983. It was not just the deaths from war. It was also the subsequent decades of worse diet, worse health care, and low birth rates. If you adjust the chronology and the size of the communities, you should get to a more realistic number.
  • The economy: At some points it makes sense, for example noting that the economy relies on agriculture and receives significant foreign aid, and some recent foreign investment. But this picture is contradicted by the rest of the proposal. It presents a nation with an industrialized economy and a modern, first-world standard of living. Again, if a small federation in Italy were able to achieve this, the rest of Italy would make no sense. Industry can be going through some revival. Nutella can be happening. But not at the scale now implied. The modern capitalist economy has not reappeared in places that were heavily attacked like Europe - simply because there is not much capital anymore.
  • Globalization: Many parts of the world are less isolated now than they were in 2010, but this is still not a world where companies in northern Italy are going to be opening up offices around the world. And I have not seen any suggestion at all that international commercial air traffic has come back. I would expect goods, recorded media, and possibly some investment from South America to have reached the Subalpine region by now; but the robust global economy implied here does not exist. And certainly there are no European companies with enough capital to start investing overseas. This also applies to the media companies.
  • Energy: I'm uncertain on the possibility of a pre-war nuclear power plant surviving and functioning all the way down through the years. The best possible scenario, I think, would be that a competent crew working within a stable town could shut the plant down safely, avoid meltdown, and contain the radioactive materials. And I do not think that anyone in Italy would want to consider bringing it back online in later years. Most people would be understandably terrified of nuclear power.
  • Foreign relations: I'm not sure that it has the resources to operate embassies in so many countries. A few overseas, sure, but not so many. And the Alpine Confederation no doubt is empowered to represent its interests in some other countries.
On the other hand, I really like the vision of the French newcomers changing the culture of the region. Most 1983dd pages portray refugees solely as a threat, and don't think about their influence on the host country in the long term. This actually inspires me to write about similar changes in some of my countries for this timeline.
I also think that the form of government is reasonable. Except that, again, it should be presented as emerging later. Maybe even post-2010. Most of the written history of Italy stops around 2010, so if we say that this Federation reached its complete form after that, it would avoid interfering with canon.
I also really like the flag, arms, map, photos, and political graphics. Visually it's a good addition to the timeline.
I'm willing to help proofread the English, but I'll wait until the content is revised.
- Benkarnell (talk) 16:00, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Some Manchurian articles


Mogadishu (1983: Doomsday)User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 23:22, October 9, 2020 (UTC)


Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed, the review template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be marked as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the review template will be removed without having to change the article.

Scotland (1983: Doomsday)

It needs to be reviewed to verify cannon after my upgrade.

Several dud maps

Wake up- the maps are drawn wrong and I fixed the plot accordingly (sorry Falkirk District Council).

Due to a error in the CA's mapping department the south of  Falkirk District was also given to Northumbria once the plans were put into action.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 18:23, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

The County of Kirkcudbright Should be mapped as Southern Scotland, not CA according to part of the the article.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:19, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

Map errors and a plot hole

The CA hols the County of Kirkcudbright and yet Southern Scotland's justice miniser is elected thire and it's part of Southern Scotland. It's been fixed and explained away.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:19, October 4, 2020 (UTC)


If it contains part of Lanarkshire, I'm accrediting an extra 100,000 (Lanarkshire) citizens to it.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 19:13, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

Kirkcudbrightshire= 15,000 more.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:19, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

My planned upgrade

It is completed now.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:19, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance

Upgrade completeUser:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 17:46, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

True British Army

Upgrade completeUser:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 17:46, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

Frustrated with it all

Yeh, the whole thing is such a cannon-lore mess, it can never be fully fixed. It's full of contradictions. You can delete my stuff (I archived a copy of it on another Wikia site), since I doubt if it fits in to canon probably and is a bit farfetched, not up to standard and implausible. a I've lost interest in the impossible task. I am also going of line soon for a while. By.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 14:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)


So you were not interested in it all until I left and cast guilty eyes on it the lost chance. I cloned the forked pages on to another of my Wikias, so it's OK to delete them here and I would like there deleting.

You all feel odd to me, are you Bibleboyde, ErichTheTrainSpotter, ErichBrestet1, Battelstriker or PhillipaWoodaxe by any way?

What ever, I'm done with it and left this Wiki.

Crush your lips!


User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:26, 21 October 2020 (UTC)


Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Cleanup and revival

Hello. In the last few months it's become clear that a lot of people were becoming interested in contributing to 1983: Doomsday, but that the community was too disorganized to accommodate new ideas. In particular, this talk page was a total mess that made discussion impossible.

So in the last couple of days I've tried to clean up this talk page. This meant sorting and archiving discussions going back nine years in some cases, and trying to trim down the proposal list - this meant graduating proposals that seemed uncontroversial, or the objections to which had more-or-less been addressed; while marking obsolete proposals that had no hope of survival. I've been discussing this on the Discord at each step, though obviously not everyone is on there to see it. The discussions, which run to an even 50, can be found in the archived proposals, numbers 22, 23, and 24. This cleanup is absolutely necessary if this project is to come back to life; but if anyone feels that something was archived that should not have been, I suppose put back the proposal template and re-list it here.

This leaves more than 30 proposals that still need to be discussed, which I felt were not obvious decisions that I could make by myself. I hope that enough people now active can take a look at them so that we can decide whether to keep them or not. It's a big list, but it's a lot better than it was, and hopefully this talk page is now clean enough that people can comfortably discuss things again.

Moving forward, it may be worth taking a look at the Editorial Guidelines to see if there are any changes that need to be made in the context of a much smaller group of editors sharing ideas. Looking over them, my sense is that they are fine as is - provided that enough people are interested in participating in the discussion here, not just working on their own pages.

It would also be a good idea to get a list of people who currently want to be active in this project. Then make a section or a fork of the list on the WCRB page. This way we can keep track of active participants.

Much love to all. I'm excited by the prospect of this project reviving. Benkarnell (talk) 18:53, September 28, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 10:05, September 29, 2020 (UTC)
How would that list work exactly? This revival project was my pet dream project of mine for years and now it finally becomes a reality. I don't see any problems with the Editorial Guidelines, that two weeks thingie is great because it frees users from being handicaped by inactive users. What made you have interest in this timeline by the way? SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:53, October 3, 2020 (UTC)
I'm very happy that it's happening. As long as a few people are paying attention, at least, I think the 2-week guideline is fair. The problem was when Absolutely Nobody was watching this page. Maybe the only change would be something like "If the timeline has gone totally silent and you're the only one, please be respectful and don't go crazy changing everything."
I was here very close to the beginning! Maybe the 4th or 5th person to start contributing. The ANZC associated states were my original area of focus, so a lot of Pacific islands. Benkarnell (talk) 14:57, October 9, 2020 (UTC)
OK.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 19:29, October 9, 2020 (UTC)


Adopting Brazil

Hey, is there any problem to contribute in/adopt the few articles of Brazil in the timeline? I believe that there is some stuff that needs to be revised.

I have changed a few bits in the story, to be more adapted to the timeline. Bolsonaro's campaign was mostly concentrated on the internet, so I'm not sure that he would rise in the same way in the timeline.

Mass (talk) 18:27, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

Hi Mass, if you want Brazil you need to formally requested it in his discussion page and if no one will answer to you in a week then it's yours. Mal3ssio97 1/10/20

Malawian Civil War

I am looking to expand the Malawi page and I wanted to add a more detailed description of what events occurred during the Malawian Civil War.  

UK articles

I would like to fix the errors in and expand:

I would like to adopt the article -True British Army (1983: Doomsday).

  • Some of my ideas.
The unofficial TBA mottos and popular war cries were: "Bugger off darkie foreigners!", "No surrender to the IRA!", Put Zion under the flat iron!", "Better dead than red!", "No surrender to the GDR!", and "Death to fagots and Nancy boys!". They well summarized their toxicity racist, homophobic, anti-Communist and anti-Semitic mentally.
The opencast quarrying for ironstone at Ryebury Hill and Sidegate Lane, on land he owned on the south west edge of Finedon, Northants, ended in 1980; but restarted in 1987. It was one of the TBA's most prized assets.
Buckingham is surrounded by sand pits. They were run by the Penal Labour Commission.
The penal 'Terminator Chalk Mine' opened near Princes Risborough in 1992. It was run by the Penal Labour Commission.
Several of the TBA's founders had post atomic-holocaust PTSE and were no longer thinking logical, thus they were so brutal and militaristic after the war.
The lowest of all TBA military units is a locally recruited 5 man "patrol unit".
The still anonymous ultimate heads of the Penal Labour Commission and National Security Commission were ranked as "Master Sergeants".
The TBA's homicidal destruction of the March 25th, 2007, Loughborough food riot; mid 2007 to late 2008 Brackley-Daventry-Long Buckby food riots, The early 2009 Towcester farmers' tax strike and the May 25, 2009, blacksmiths' tax protests in Daventry by both a Kettering based occupation Battalion and the numerous local TBA platoons in the protesting localizes.
Thugish policing policy.
Rudimentary local government structures.
Skirmishes with tribes in Oxfordshire and southern Buckinghamshire.
An official oath.
A local news sheet.
A Porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome virus (PRRSV) outbreak in late 2005 and early 2006.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 05:05, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Upgrade complete.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 17:49, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

I would like to adopt the article -Scotland (1983: Doomsday).

I would like to adopt the Scotland (1983: Doomsday) page to create an economic policy (I'm sure they will have at least some farms, some basic food processing factories and a few fishing vessels) and to add to both the general political, national policing and local organisational aspects of it.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 05:05, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any problem, I don't object. As long as it doesn't create clashing canon between articles.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:47, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

My upgrade is now complete.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 20:14, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

Ivory Coast

I've noticed that the Ivory Coast page is a stub and I want to expand on it. I was going to add information relating to an Ivorian Civil War that occurs in the 1990s or 2000s, which would include the factions in Liberia such as the DRL. Does this seem fine? I will also be adding information on the Ivory Coast's economy, military, and geography. (Flabby Cheeks for life) (Talk)

Oerwinde is the creator and caretaker of the West African Union, so please reach out on his talk page. He was last active at the end of last year, so he's not completely gone. In the meantime I see that you have started writing the history up through 1999. Are you planning to write more? If you are, please hold off until we hear (or don't) from Oerwinde. Benkarnell (talk) 17:23, September 29, 2020 (UTC)
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