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GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7


Rebuilding/Reclaiming Destroyed Cities

It has been around 38 years since Doomsday, would radiation levels be dropping to a point where cities could begin being cleaned up and rebuilt? I know uranium and plutonium have long half lives, but weather would wash or blow the radioactive materials away over time. I think some cities would begin to be able to be cleaned up and rebuilt. Obviously this will depend on how large and resource heavy the surrounding nations are.

Alternatively, would some nations (Like the ANZC, USSR, USA, etc) turn the abandoned cities into nature preserves? Especially as newer cities replace the destroyed cities and rebuilding major infrastructure is both expensive and time consuming.

Thanks!

As you can see part of Rome is safe and habitable, but just the area in red.

The Rome Exclusion Zone divided into areas dedicated as research base and permanently inhabitated and the exclusion zone itself, alongside the Vatican.

Map of Naples divided into the military controlled port, the area of Chiaia used as a research base and the rest of Naples as an exclusion zone.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I think is a very interesting subject and one that we should beep into more often, i doubt that even after 38 years nations would resettle their destroyed city, even if parts of the city are intact and radiation free i very much doubt that people would move near any radioactive city for living permanently. In my opinion many governments would set up research and military bases inside said cities, in the safest part as to establish a permanent research base in order to study the effects on the radiation on the fauna and flora, the examination and cleaning of any recovered item of value, the monitoring of the radiation levels in the city and more tasks.

I provided two exaples of irradiated city; Rome and Naples, both under Italian control and as you can see both have an exclusion zone and zones permanently inhabitated by scientific and military teams (Usually around 100 or so people) and in the case of Rome the city of Rome still exist, but in the coastal area in red, while the rest is under two different municipalities. In the case of Naples the area of the port is under fully military control, while the Chaia zone is used as a research base. Alex (talk) 00:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Confederate States of America (Muscle Shoals) and other pro-US survivor states

So in the timeline, a non-racist CSA existed from late 1985 until around 1999 when it dissolved. As of the mid-2010’s there were talks of reforming the nation (in the TL), but it was decided to defer and wait until the United States entered the region and rejoin the USA.

By 2020, while the United States is reaching closer to where these states existed, there are still fairly substantial territorial gaps to reunification. Based on the position of the US, I could actually see the government in Torrington encouraging nations that are interested in reunification, but geographically isolated (such as the former CSA, Pennsylvania, Neonotia, etc.) to form regional groupings and treat them like associated states. The nations could maintain a high degree of autonomy to handle local situations with their own militaries, elections, economies, and regional affairs; but federal authorities in the US could use these as stepping off points to attempt to reunify as much of the former country as possible, as well as stave off influence from hostile nations such as Superior or Virginia.

Long term goals would be for possible reunification, but I also think Torrington would recognize that just alignment with the United States is preferable to nothing at all.

To sum up, I think the US would actually encourage the former CSA (Muscle Shoals) to reunify as a nation and the two countries work in tandem with long term goals of reunification once territory and communication is up to par to allow for government officials to travel and communicate effectively.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about it really, for me it would be detremental to the United States supporting a revived Confederacy, even if slavery woudn't be brought up i think a massive backlash and suspicious would emerge among the African Americans of that area and also from the other states of the region like Neonotia and North Carolina. In my opinion if anything there yes should be a new unification of the southern states, but under a different name and flag, maybe call it "American Union State", "Southern States of America" or "American Federal Republic". I would suggest Columbus in Georgia or Tallahassee / St. Augustine in Florida, even Athens or Augusta could make for some good capital. Alex (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

That is a valid point and I tend to agree. It doesn’t have to be named the Confederate States, but I could imagine it encompasses the remaining independent states of the dissolved Muscle Shoals CSA (former CSA Kentucky and Tennessee joined the Commonwealth of Kentucky), Neonotia, and Florida with a possibility for Eastern Tennessee, Piedmont, and Blue Ridge joining.

Augusta, GA; Columbus, GA; and Tallahassee, FL were all destroyed on Doomsday. Athen, GA was overrun by raiders and abandoned within a year after Doomsday. Saint Augustine, FL is a city within the Republic of Florida, but it seems to be somewhat isolated from the more populated areas in the Deep South, though long term I could see it being developed into a major port as it is one of the few areas on the east coast with a natural bay, however I don’t think it is positioned effectively to be a capital.

I would suggest either Rome, GA or Muscle Shoals (since it already has the structures from 1985-1999 CSA).

I think long term, there wouldn’t be a huge political barrier, both regions are conservative in OTL and ATL, so politics wouldn’t come into play; it serves the Deep South well in that it gets access (albeit likely a longer time for transit) to the West Coast and Pacific market and the US a stronger foothold on the Atlantic beyond the USAR, and would strengthen the more mining and industrial based western states with agriculture from the southern states who lack major industrial development.

It is just over 600 miles from a major US population center to a major CSA (former) population center [Dodge City, Kansas to Muscle Shoals]. The major issue will be geography as Kentucky controls most of the land between the US and former southern states.

My suggestion would be as follows:

United Southeastern America

  • Capital: Muscle Shoals (~41,853 [2020])
  • Largest City: Cape Coral (95,176 [2020])
  • Population: 3,194,285 (2020)
  • Government Style: Confederation with a high level of autonomy for member states, but all foreign affairs and interstate disputes are handled via the centralized government, in political affiliation with the United States
  • States
    • Alabama: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Alabama
      • Capital/Largest City - Florence
      • Population: 268,845 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL North Alabama region
    • Florida: Existing Republic of Florida
      • Capital - Gainsville
      • Largest City - Cape Coral
      • Population: 1,649,368 (2020)
    • Georgia: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Georgia
      • Capital/Largest City - Rome
      • Population: 524,970 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL Northwest Georgia region
    • Neotonia
      • Capital - Americus
      • Largest City - Valdosta
      • Population: 709,249 (2020)
      • Region: South Georgia, South Alabama
  • Territories/Federal Districts
    • Muscle Shoals (in state of Alabama)
      • Population: 41,853 (2020)

Other territories that could possibly be added:

  • Hot Springs as Arkansas
    • Capital/Largest City - Hot Springs
    • Population: 453,471
  • Blue Ridge Republic as North Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Asheville
    • Population: 433,432 (2020)
  • Piedmont Republic as South Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Greenville
    • Population: 451,637 (2020)
  • East Tennessee as Tennessee
    • Capital - Morristown
    • Largest City - Knoxville
    • Population: 529,557 (2020)
  • United States Atlantic Remnant as Virgin Islands
    • Capital/Largest City - Charlotte Amalie
    • Population: 244,189 (2020)

But I think these nations are unlikely, the first four seem to have gone their own way, and the USAR seems to prefer the existing arrangement. Not to mention the US Navy has gain a significance number of assets, including a carrier strike group.

Daeseunglim (talk) 07:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

So here's my proposal, this is the map of the Southern United States if united into one country, it incorporate the states of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. The red dots represents potential capitals and the yellow areas are restricted zones due to the radiations.

Alex (talk) 01:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

This is my proposed detailed map:

1983DD Proposed Southern Nation.png

The states would be:

  • Alabama (Light Green)
    • Capital- Florence
  • Apalechee (Yellow)
    • Capital- Destin
  • Cahaba (Dark Green)
    • Capital- Auburn
  • Florida (Red)
    • Capital- Gainesville
  • Georgia (Purple)
    • Capital- Rome
  • Mississippi (Maroon)
    • Capital- Corinth
  • Neonotia (Blue)
    • Capital- Americus

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I like it, but in my opinion a reconstructed CSA should also took the consideration of reconquering the bay of mobile and also expanding to ecorporate all southern Mississipi river. Alex (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I think Mobile Bay would depend on how much residual radiation is left from the strike on Mobile. Plutonium and strontium might still be present in large enough quantities to cause genetic defects and radiation poisoning over time.

As far as towards lower Mississippi, I think that’s possible, maybe if Hattiesburg joins, given it seems to have a pro-USA leanings.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

CSA-1983DD.png

An other thing we should consider are highways, as this would be the main arteries and roads that the CSA or any Southern State would use in order to trade and remain connect with the rest of the US. So here's my idea of map. Alex (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Here's my idea, like i said highways and interstates would be a important thing for any regional nation.

East American Alliance

Just an FYI to the group that I made a few minor edits to the EAA page. I reordered the “Establishment” section of it because it seemed odd that the member states was listed there and created a separate header for members and potential members. I also added Gettysburg as a partner/observer to the organization. I understand the reason for not joining (when the group was formed Gettysburg and Virginia did not share a border like the other member states do), however I think it is reasonable to consider Gettysburg as a partner and observer state, similar to how OTL Ukraine is not part of NATO but heavily collaborates and trains with the organization.

I also restructured the operations section to create a header for official operations and sub headers for the Liberation of Portland, TN; the Virginia-Jacksonian War; and I added a new header for counter raider operations in former Virginia (state). I think given Virginia’s (country) expansion eastward it would face resistance from gangs, similar to the PA survivor states and it would be reasonable to consider that the East American Alliance would be involved in the efforts to drive them out.

If anyone objects to my edits, please let me know, but I felt it was reasonable.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Minnesota

Given the United States controls eastern North and South Dakota, I believe it is reasonable for the government to claim territory in and reform the state of Minnesota in the western reaches of the state, avoiding Assiniboia, International Falls, and Olmsted.

The territory would encompass western Minnesota and the capital would be located in Moorehead.

What are people’s thoughts on this?

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I commented in the other section, but I can speak to this more specifically. I think it is 100% reasonable and would actually be excited to write it, if you don't feel so moved.
My idea is that the communities around Moorhead would begin to grow along with Fargo and the stability of Dakota. In fact, in the time before Dakota's statehood (2012), that region would probably be considered de facto Dakotan territory. Then when Dakota joined the US, the desire to stick to prewar state borders as much as possible would mean relinquishing that territory, but everyone involved would surely want to organize it as the "Minnesota Territory" either at the same time as statehood or soon after.
From there, it's probably a fairly inevitable road to statehood. We only recently wrote about new states after Dakota, and I would be 100% OK with retconning the list so that Minnesota joined at some point between maybe 2014 and 2020. Alternatively, we could say that statehood was delayed due to various complications - being out there on the borderlands, there could be plenty of those - and celebrate the new state as a live event in 2021. What do you think? False Dmitri (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I think territorial status this year (2021) as the US and Dakota government expand territorial control inland deeper into Minnesota to a point that Dakota cannot continue to govern the region effectively and it is split off. Prospective statehood in 2028, with the capital and largest city in Moorehead.

Territorial control of the Red River Valley and the western part of the Minnesota River Valley. I’m not certain on the population, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 180,000 seems appropriate. It is more rural, but likely still saw population loss from disease and starvation. From a cursory check, it seems that in 1980, the region had a population of 491,721 people.

Daeseunglim (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


OK I understand, so it would be an integral part of Dakota right up til today. So no need to retcon the history, but the maps would need correction.
With that scenario, I don't think it would have to wait so long. The USA is willing to admit states with underdeveloped institutions, so long as the residents are willing and eager to be part of the country. If 2021 is the year when Minnesota splits off from Dakota, I really could imagine it becoming a state and skipping any phase as a territory. Especially when federal territories so far haven't been part of the new USA. That would be a new sort of entity that might be unnecessary in this case. (I suggested it earlier because I wasn't considering the idea of making it official Dakotan territory.) False Dmitri (talk) 04:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
If you would like to write an article I don’t object, I’m busy with the US Defense Force, updating Gettysburg, and preparing my proposal for a war in the Northeast between the EAA and a Delmarvan/Pennsylvanian alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I've started State of Minnesota. False Dmitri (talk) 22:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Hey everyone, I'm back from a hiatus (things have been very busy for me the past couple months), but I just wanted to say that I agree that the USA would definitely make reunification with Minnesota/the Mississippi River valley a vital priority. I had thought about it for a while as a likely eventuality. I am currently the caretaker for the Quad Cities Alliance page and I think the QCA could also rejoin the USA as well, for similar reasons. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

That could be interesting Gryffindor, especially given that most of Iowa outside of the QCA and Lincoln, the former state is mostly hamlets and city states versus organization countries. Maybe the US and QCA come to an agreement where the two nations will push to expand through northern Iowa to avoid Lincoln, with the QCA gaining the territory as the reformed state of Iowa. For the time being, potentially the QCA could still function like an independent country, but maybe still become a US territory and send a nonvoting delegate to Congress in Torrington.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:06, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Updated Map of the United States

1983DD United States Map.jpg

I have a new map with more details on the states/counties controlled by the United States. What does everyone think of this?

Thank you!

Daeseunglim (talk) 19:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I think we already have several versions of US maple, but i can be wrong Alex (talk) 21:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

All the maps of the USA I have seen (and the main map on the country page) is a high level view by state. This was causing confusion in Idaho and Oregon as based on both the Utah and USA page, the two countries have pretty significant overlapping borders.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This is much better, The maps of the US have been entirely inconsistent across the pages it has been used on, made a pain for the Utah borders. Trainor90 (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

83DDUsastates.png

I updated the main locator map to reflect some but not all of your changes. Reducing Idaho to make room for Utahn territory was a must, and Colorado also needed to be expanded. I also added in the square for the federal district. But I disagree with making Lakotah any bigger (its size already strains plausibility in my opinion), and I don't think it makes sense to expand Absarokah any further south than Torrington. The history certainly makes it seem clear enough that Torrington was ceded from Wyoming, not Absarokah. This map also provisionally shows where the new state of Minnesota will go. False Dmitri (talk) 03:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

This might be opening a can of worms, but I don’t think Absaroka’s borders are logical. The state is almost as long as OTL California which, post Doomsday given the collapse of transportation, would make it extremely difficult to govern.

This was the OTL proposed state: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absaroka_(proposed_state)

Now, I would say it wouldn’t be nearly as large (or encompass any of South Dakota), but I think making it a box that encompasses southeastern Montana and northwestern Wyoming makes more sense. Maybe the following counties:

From Montana:

  • Carter County
  • Custer County
  • Fallon County
  • Powell River County

From Wyoming:

  • Campbell County
  • Crook County
  • Weston County

Capital in Gillette.

The state would be more compact and easier to govern, but would still have a relatively low population and borders Lakotah for the majority of its border.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

United States of America 1983DD (Change to Absaroka).png

Proposed USA with update to Absaroka, adjustment of Dakota's border, and the addition of Minnesota and San Juan.

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Absaroka has a distinct history, though ... as currently written, it's not simply designed as a separate state for people in the area; it was created as a buffer state during the era of the Lakota Wars. Crow people migrated to that border. I go back and forth over whether that's a realistic turn of events. Certainly it captures an unsettled, chaotic environment during the Aftermath period, which I like. You're suggesting rewriting the history so it's more of a typical breakaway state, then? False Dmitri (talk) 00:56, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I like this newer amended Absaroka, the original though intended to be a buffer state looks unwieldy and would be difficult to govern with its elongated nature, the lakotah army could quickly slice it in two, making the idea of a buffer state redundant. Maybe Crow people are more densely populated along the Lakotah border yes, but as a state Absaroka just looks a little odd in the current iteration and would suit the newer proposal in my opinion. Trainor90 (talk) 01:25, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
In response to False Dimitri, to your point, fair enough, that would be a pretty major overhaul. I just look at the length and width and I am not sure how effective it would actually function as a buffer state to protect against an invasion. Now, that said, if it was a buffer state solely for geopolitical reasons, then I’ll run with it as exists and drop my concerns. If it was done for military reasons, the counties in that area aren’t wide enough and the area isn’t populated enough to successfully blunt a military invasion. And with how small the local population is, maybe governance isn’t an issue, as much of the functions could be handled on a local level? Daeseunglim (talk) 12:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

ANZUS Treaty

I know that the history of the CANZ indicates that the CANZ is the successor to the ANZUS Treaty, but with the Torrington based USA claiming to be the successor it would technically be the successor to the United States and its treaties. While the US isn’t anywhere close to being (and probably will never be) a superpower, it definitely is a regional power and with the USAR and its Navy joining the US proper, it would have a fairly significant military.

I don’t think it would be out of the realm of possibility for the USA and CANZ to have a military alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree, Daeseunglim. With the Torringotn-based USA recognized as the legal successor of the DC-based government (as detailed on various existing pages), it makes sense that they'd inherit the US commitment to the ANZUS treaty...and likely they'd want to as well. With renewed access to the Pacific thanks to reintegration of parts of the West Coast, the USA will surely want to maintain friendly relations with the ANZC, given their dominance in that region. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:13, 3 October 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Map/Demographics

Virginian Territorial Control and Population

There needs to be a map of Virginia created as the borders are very nebulous which has lead to disputes IRL over the size and scale of the nation. I do believe that Virginia would also encompass part of southwestern Pennsylvania by this stage as it already controls all of West Virginia, western Maryland, and southeastern Ohio.

Additionally, I think a population needs to be pinned down. There were major disagreements early on as the original nation seemed a bit unrealistically overpowered. I think this should be clarified. West Virginia is mountainous and lacks a significant amount of arable land, so I think there would be a population drop from starvation and the historical canon indicates the area fell into pretty severe lawlessness. However as far as nuclear strikes, this region was one of the better places to be, as only Wheeling was targeted.

I think that modern Virginia would be composed of the following:

  • East Virginia
    • Region: OTL Virginia counties of - Alleghany, Augusta, Bath, Botetourt, Buchanan, Clarke, Craig, Dickerson, Fredrick, Giles, Highland, Montgomery, Paige, Pulaski, Roanoke, Rockbridge, Rockingham, Russell, Shenandoah, Smyth, Tazewell, and Warren, Wise, and Wythe. Independent cities of - Burns Vista, Covington, Harrisonburg, Lee, Lexington, Norton, Roanoke, Salem, Scott, Staunton, Washington, Waynesboro, and Winchester
    • Capital: Roanoke
    • Largest City: Roanoke
    • Population: 341,871
  • Ohio
    • Region: OTL Ohio counties of - Athens, Belmont, Carroll, Gallia, Guernsey, Harrison, Hocking, Jackson, Jefferson, Lawrence, Meigs, Monroe, Morgan, Noble, Vinton, and Washington
    • Capital: Athens
    • Largest City: Athens
    • Population: 158,321
  • Maryland
    • Region: OTL Maryland counties of - Allegheny, Garrett, and western and southern part of Washington (just north of Hagerstown would be the border)
    • Capital: Cumberland
    • Largest City: Cumberland
    • Population: 65,248
  • Pennsylvania
    • Region: OTL Pennsylvania counties of - Fayette, Greene, Somerset, Washington
    • Capital: Waynesburg
    • Largest City: Washington
    • Population: 127,682
  • Virginia
    • Region: All of OTL West Virginia
    • Capital: Charleston
    • Largest City: Charleston
    • Population: 883,814

Virginia stats:

  • Population: 1,576,936
  • Capital: Charleston
  • Largest City: Charleston

This gives it a more realistic population taking into account attrition from gang warfare, starvation, and poor medical care. However it still leaves it one of the more powerful regional players, in line with existing canon (it is still larger than all the other regional nations except for Kentucky).

Daeseunglim (talk) 07:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Adding a proposed map:

1983DD Virginia Territory.png

Daeseunglim (talk) 21:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Central Asia rework and in present times

So, since we are reviewing the project, i feel also that we need to take a look into Central Asia too. There are a couple of issues that need to be brought up, in my opinion.

  1. The fact that Ashgabat, Dushanbe, Bishkek and Almaty all survive. Giving to the autonomous republics more possibilities to surviving and managing the situation even better.
  2. The existence of the MLA and the fact that was just a placeholder for an organization similar to the Taliban or Al-Queda. In my opinion, this article is written in a flawed way.
  3. The disintegration of Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakistan, in so little time and without much explanation how it came to this.
  4. The involvement of Iran in the region i think should be much more increased and explained, as Iran would use Turkmenistan as a buffer between a possible soviet intervention in CA and themselves, and how Tehran could invest greatly into the region, by developing a new silk road of some sorts.
  5. Other regional powers should be involved too in this affair, like the Russian Confederacy, USSR, Pakistan, India and others.

I as well created a new map of the region, as i think it needs a bit of rework in the case that these capitals survive, as with all capitals the retain of even a regional or sub-federal governative body can assure much greater chances at keeping a certain state toghether.

I also will do a list of nations as well.

Map of Central Asia with new border, names of the countries and capitals marked in red.

  • Russian Confederacy, a confederation of Russian states born in the 80s and that expanded in former Kazakistan.
  • General Governorate of the Steppes, created by the military units present in Kazakistan as a way to protect the northern part of the country and overtime it becomes an independent country.
  • Khorezm People's Republic, a state created around the ancient city of Ugranch and that it evolved to incorporate the south part of the Sea of Aralia and Kyzylkum desert.
  • Bukharan Republic, a state created in the city of Bukhara and around the Zerafshan river.
  • The Islamic Republic of Turkmenistan, an Islamic republic created by dissoluted Turkmeni ethnic soldiers that returned in Turkmenistan, under their leader X and he gained the support of Iran in the establishment of a stable state in Central Asia.
  • Mangystau Republic, created by the remnants of the Soviet fleet in the Caspian Sea.
  • Tianstan Federation, a union between Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, that decided to form first a defensive alliance between them and after the creation of a proper federation in the 2000s.
  • The Soviet Union did establish a Kazak SSR during the last decade with capital Almaty. Alex (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm so sorry that nobody commented for a whole month! People come and go.

I 100% agree with the idea of the MLA as a problematic placeholder. Islam and islamism are handled badly in many parts of this timeline, and in some ways show its age. 2008 was still the Bush era, and when a lot of the TL was written there were still a lot of stereotypes in the air in a way that isn't as true anymore.

As for SSR capitals surviving, I'm a lot less optimistic about this. The premise of the timeline is a maximally destructive nuclear war, and... having multiple SSRs survive intact would disrupt that pretty severely. Had that happened, why did the entire Soviet Union not just stay together but based in Central Asia? And why weren't such major cities targets? I don't think we can allow that without changing some of the fundamental assumptions of the whole setting.

If you're worried about the sudden collapse, the war itself is enough explanation. Total collapse occurred in the USA, USSR, and most of the targeted nations of Europe. I don't think the Central Asian part of the USSR would be any different. And if it had been different, well, it would have just kept on being the USSR. False Dmitri (talk) 18:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Culture / Society

Middlesbrough Olympics

First of all, I am a newbie to FANDOM editing however I have experience on Wikipedia. I am proposing Middlesbrough as the winning for a Summer Olympics. The event would be interesting to create medal tables, images, sport facilities created and how the athletes get to the event. I will start creating the propose article if anybody wants to help. Mr ios Subscriber

This is not possible. Middlesborough was struck by two 100kt warheads on Doomsday which destroyed the city, and a third was found in 2010 leaking radiation in the region which would have further impeded resettlement.

Additionally, much of the former First World outside of the CANZ is only beginning to recover. The Olympics typically tend towards countries with stronger economies due to the cost involved. This is why in OTL, most of the host nations are the wealthier countries (with a few exceptions). I expect that the Olympics will continue to mainly be held in the Southern Hemisphere outside of the Alpine Confederation, Celtic Alliance, and Nordic Union in Europe.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:31, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Archives: Page 1Page 2Page 3

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5

United States Influence

I think we need to review Lincoln (nation), Superior and Virginia as all three are vehemently against the US government and act ridiculously (and out of characteristically for Lincoln and Superior) authoritarian when it comes to CRUSA and US supporters. While I agree resentment in many nations will exist and many nations may be unwilling to join the reformed nation, whether for financial (Alaska & Hawaii) reasons, political (Niagara Falls) reasons, geographical (Blue Ridge) reasons, religious (Deseret) reasons, or simply the idea that they are doing fine on their own and don’t need the USA (Texas). However; Lincoln (nation), Superior, and Virginia are almost ASB ridiculous with how anti-American they are.

When the timeline was structured there was a strong debate over how realistic that was, and from what I gather the same individual wrote all three articles very early on when there were two expectations that have changed drastically since the timeline creation: the first being that most of the North American continent was empty and the second is that most Americans know what happened to Regan.

I think all three nations could be uninterested in rejoining the USA with Lincoln (nation) being worried about the federal government overruling local decision makers and both Superior and Virginia becoming regional powers on their own, really not needing the USA at this stage.

While I do not believe the United States will ever regain control of the entire former territory, I think it will grow in size a bit more and I believe a system like what is occurring with the US Atlantic Remnant (US Virgin Islands and a few other assorted ones) will become more common as communications and transportation improves.

That the parts of the country interested in rejoining do so, but as an associated state, not a full fledged territory or state. Similar to the modern (OTL) US relation ship with Palau or other United States Associated States.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I also believe, given that much of western Minnesota has been abandoned or unclaimed, the United States may reform the state with the capital in Moorehead.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Everything that you're saying is correct in my opinion. In addition to those other factors, I'll add that the timeline had a serious localism bias. Most of the US survivor states were developed singly, and this led to the ascription of isolationism and an anti-Union stance without considering the full context. The southeastern quarter of the US was developed along more of a coherent regional plan, and it shows.
Fortunately we have a decade of recent history to work with, and a lot of that could be described as "the situation as of 2011". The events of the American Spring have been presented as fairly monumental but, as that page shows, writers only followed up on them in a few places. We've explored pro-Union changes in some of the small states near the US (Cimarron, the San Juan Islands, Pasco, Cascadia, and Jefferson/MSP) because they were easy. But the impact in the big states must have been much more complex. It is a massive oversimplification to talk about "what Utah wants"; as a representative democracy, surely it has competing factions that want different things. The question of Union is urgent enough that it could realign party systems and determine entire political agendas. Thinking about how the question will play out across the region, especially as it moves toward a more integrated and interdependent economy and culture, we'll have to consider these kinds of opposing points of view.
As with everything, there are definitely some past misjudgments that need recalibrating. But also as ever, it's better to do this by exploring nuance and reframing things as much as possible, rather than wholesale changing facts. On the other hand, we have a Review process precisely for when things are simply implausible as written, and we can definitely use that if it's necessary.
Your final PS about Minnesota is a good one. As Dakota develops as a coherent state, it makes sense that it would have an impact on whoever is living across the border there. And it says that Fargo is the biggest town there, which means that there absolutely has to be some kind of presence in Moorhead, which by now may have developed into a state, or at least a US territory that will soon become a state. False Dmitri (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I think also one other aspect that need to be addressed is how the nations in NA seems to be isolated and unaware of their neighbours even if at 10 miles of distance, and this also reflect to the outside world. One prime example is that Australian pilot that crashes in Virginia and then got rescued and reveal at the world the existence of Virginia, this is incoherent, stupid and unrealistic from any point but especially from a geographical and historical standpoint, because of many factors like movement between different parts of the US, the creation of trade routes across the former US, the awareness of the general people about the fact that some areas might have survive better then others and sheer distance, i found very strange that Delmarva didn't establish connections as early as 87 with Virginia, considering their distance.

We talked with Ben about private voyages and also about the fact that transatlantic trade and exploration could be resumed as early as the 1990s, just after the arrival of the Australians in Europe, this would begin a period of trade and connection between the survivor eastern states of US and the European states that faces into the Atlantic or that have the possibility to make such distant travels, but this voyages would not just be driven by trade and profit, but also exploration, adventure, seek of fortune and a variety of different means. For the Mediterranean we talked how it will be even by the late 80s a bustling sea filled with ships that travel from east to west and from south to north, bringing news, shipping goods, transporting people and travellers alike in one port to an another and also the rising treat of piracy in the Mediterranean. Alex (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I also think there is one of the history pages (I’m not sure which one) that describes most of the US as a barren wasteland, which is unrealistic for two reasons: the first part is that much of the region the pilot would have flown over is barren desert even in OTL and the second is that several countries exist in this region which while not existing as nations yet would still have surviving communities.

I think some nations may have taken an isolationist standpoint, but there would be contact. I wrote Susquehanna to align with the other PA survivor states history, since they were written about 4 years before “my” nation and I think Susquehanna’s borders make sense, geographically. The Susquehanna in the west is a natural border, and the Pocono’s/Appalachians in the south are another barrier. But based on the history to match canon, Susquehanna doesn’t contact the nations until the early 2000’s. I wrote it to match, but I don’t think it is logical. While Susquehanna didn’t official declare independence until 2005, it organized in the mid 1990’s and had a semblance of government since the late 1980’s. I think many nations (or predecessors) in a region would have been in at least sporadic contact within months after Doomsday.

Though with the power grid being severely damaged it would hamper radio and phone communication, but runners and people on bikes would likely be used.

For example (using Pennsylvania as an example): I could see Reading, State College, and Susquehanna being in contact, but the distance between Reading and Bloomsburg is 74 miles, between State College and Bloomsburg is 91 miles, and between Reading and State College is about 144 miles (though it passes through Harrisburg, so it would probably be a bit further). This is close enough they could likely be in touch, but trying to govern the region would be very challenging.

I think it would be more plausible for the state government to take control of the State College region, but recognizes that it couldn’t control that much of the state, designating regional governments to control it. Over time, they garner more autonomy and eventually declare independence in the late 1990’s.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah i think this is something that we need to recognize as a big flaw in the project and review it, is basically impossible that this states in Pennsylvania didn't see human movements even in the early 80s. For example in the case of Italy i write that Palermo was almost immediatly to maintain communication with the outside world thanks to the use of radio communicaton and the informations gater by the navy in the patrolling of Sicilian waters, but it maintain itself in contact with Malta, Sardinia, Reggio Calabria, Tunisia and other parts of Europe. Alex (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry for my behavior last year.

In fact, I've grown rather fond of 1983: Doomsday. Star Wars is spared Disney's destruction. I just wish I could live there. In this timeline, we have a decaying society AND no Star Wars Iluv80s (talk) 23:08, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Why was my post deleted

I didn't do anything Iluv80s (talk) 01:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted, it was moved to this section. You have to put things under the right section, don't just use "Add topic" for this page. False Dmitri (talk) 17:31, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28


Rajneeshistan

Proposal for a new small-state, located in the PNW of the former United States. Area was unoccupied by any other Doomsday nation (according to my search of the map and existing successor nations in North America), which was the catalyst of creating the nation (a fill-in-the-blank thing basically).

I'm not super attached to Rajneeshistan so any edits, changes, adjustments, or just nixing the idea are all fine by me, I have no great dedication to the project. Dieua-Artio (talk) 23:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a really clever idea and is something that works in a post-apocalypse setting. It seems too big, however, in both area and population. Simply because it seems really really difficult to maintain cult discipline among a population of 200,000 people like that. Maybe I'm wrong, though; I'm definitely willing to hear the justification for it. And area too, filling in all the unclaimed land of Washington just strikes me as too much for a state like this. But again, maybe I'm missing an important rationale for it. False Dmitri (talk) 23:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there that many survivors left in Washington? I also agree with False Dimitri, I don’t think a cult would be able to have that many members and stay intact. Additionally, it would have shared borders with what became Lincoln immediately after Doomsday, the region which was run by white supremacists, so there would absolutely be major conflict there. Eastern Washington outside of Spokane is very conservative in OTL and I don’t even think a large nation of this nature could gain a foothold like this let alone survive.

The economy would not be that successful, it would be very small and focused on survival such as blacksmithing, farming, security, etc. not yoga. If it did focus on aspects like spirituality and yoga, you can almost guarantee there would be massive upheaval as people starved. They say we are only 3 meals away from anarchy.

Additionally, if it was a cult, I cannot see the United States, Victoria, or Astoria (even though it is a dictatorship) permitting this nation to survive long term, and would likely seek to either overthrow the government or outright invade.

I would recommend scaling this down to a single county at most, and make it very rural to avoid catching the eye of other countries.

The OTL 1989 population of the region encompasses by your proposed nation (Yakima, Klickitat, and Western Benton counties) is in the neighborhood of 220,000 people. If we assume 25% losses due to fighting and starvation and another 15% loss due to diseases, we get to around 140,000 people.

The area voted heavily conservative (in the 1980 Presidential Election, Yakima voted 55.2% Republican, Klickitat voted 49.5% Republican, and Benton voted 64.7% Republican) so there would likely be an exodus of conservatives into Idaho, Oregon, or Lincoln if this nation gained traction, as well as any non-religious or liberal individuals as the nation imposed religion on people. Assume another 40% loss due to exodus, which I think is realistic. We are left with 84,000 people approximately in 1983 and assuming a 5% population growth per decade leaves us with 102,103 people today.

According to Wikipedia, at it’s height Rajneeshpuram had 7,000 people and it was a self sufficient community in north-central Oregon. Having to relocate and fight off bandits and raiders would take a toll on that population, even 7,000 people isn’t enough to take on and control 84,000 people.

Given the US controls Wasco County, Oregon (where Rajneeshpuram started), I would suggest the following:

  • The community remains neutral between 1983 and the Oregon Civil War and only involves itself to drive out raiders and state investigators. State officials investigate the community as a means to distract against their own bad behavior and point the finger at Rajneeshpuram.
  • In the civil war, the government that would become Astoria tries to drive the people out, but are unsuccessful due to other important military operations and troops defecting to Oregon.
  • When Oregon stabilized and splits between Oregon and Astoria, Oregon state authorities begin to investigate Rajneeshpuram due to complaints by citizens of Wasco County, and this forces the believers to flee into Washington State in 2007.
  • The community finds the Yakama Indian Reservation somewhat intact but largely depopulated due to fighting with Spokane through the 1980’s and 1990’s with only a few thousand survivors left.
  • It forms an independent nation with the new capital being Toppenish, renamed Rajneeshpuram, the nation has a population of around 30,000 people circa 2010, 31,500 circa 2020.
  • From survivors, the leadership of Rajneeshpuram find out about the United States and Victoria.
  • The nation fortifies its borders and takes steps for self sufficiency as it knows that the United States or Victoria are likely to attack it.
  • Present day, it is still an independent nation, but US interests are beginning to look towards arresting the nation’s leadership due to alleged crimes against humanity and dictatorial practices. Additionally, it is a destabilizing force on the border of the US state of Cascadia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Any alterations, to a major or minor degree, are all fine by me. Is just a mild side thought-project. Another immediate thought after the article was made is - what of the Yakima Tribe? They'd likely have issue with the religious-state being encroaching into their tribal lands. I can alterate it with the above suggestions, or if someone else wants to take it on that is great too. Dieua-Artio (talk)

I would say to go ahead, whenever you're ready. The Yakima will also present an interesting part of the story. False Dmitri (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Second Anglo-Xhosa War

Murph adopted New Britain several months ago and wrote the section History of New Britain (1983: Doomsday)#Conflict with KwaXhosa. The changes are large enough that I feel they ought to be discussed here, so I've labelled the section as a proposal for now. False Dmitri (talk) 16:55, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Tripolitania

As a final step for the months-long review of Greece and its zone of influence (see "Current Reviews"), a new page has to be written for Tripolitania. Co-written by me, Mal3ssio97, ForsakenPear and Imperium Guy. In short, western Libya was devastated by war and famine, then partially colonized by Sicily. After the war in 2010, the regional powers set up a rather precarious republic to govern the territory. It will do well if it can take advantage of its oil reserves, but it faces big challenges. False Dmitri (talk) 15:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Continental Weather Service

A proposal by the user named Codes & Roads. Not sure what the scope of this is. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Allegheny War

Tentative war I have an idea for between the Dixie Alliance/Superior and Delmarva/PA survivor states. If its agreed for this not to be canon or the page owners don't want their nations to be involved I can obsolete or modify the page. However this region seems to be a powder keg considering the alignment during the Saguenay War, Virginian territorial aggression, and borders or claimed territory beginning to overlap and interfere with each other or at the bare minimum beginning to reach each other.

I think a 12 year gap between the Saguenay War and this proposed conflict is enough time for the borders to expand to this point (note that Delmarva, North Penn, Reading, and State College are still working off borders that are around 10 years old at this point). The name is more of a placeholder, we can probably find something more appropriate or accurate for the conflict.

I have my proposed sides and my reasoning:

  • Basically Virginia seizes military bases or settlements Delmarva controls on the Chesapeake in the former state of Virginia.
  • Delmarva begins to mobilize and reach out to regional allies or partners for support. Meanwhile Virginia calls the EAA to a meeting to declare war to seize more territory, who agree with Kentucky supplying in the mid 20k and Cape Girardiau supplying several hundred attached to Kentucky's contribution.
  • Virginia subtly threatens to attack North Penn and State College if they do not acquiesce to Virginian territorial demands which encompasses land the two latter nations already control. It secretly prepares with Gettysburg to take control of Lancaster County (for another angle to attack Delmarva at) and Huntingdon to distract from the other points in the war.
  • North Penn and State College sign an agreement to support each other in a war while not conceding their own disputes (given cooperation at Saint Marys I find this to be a realistic agreement). Both countries pressure Reading and Susquehanna to support them, which both nations initially decline (not knowing the secret plan to invade Lancaster County).
  • Virginia reaches out to Saguenay and Superior who both join the Dixie Alliance (informally not as members) as payback to North Penn for supporting Canada, however Superior is limited to its Navy and Air Force with some marines in support while Saguenay is limited to a detachment of soldiers with Superior. Most of their personnel are concentrated to protect if Canada intervenes.
  • Superior agrees to spearhead naval operations against North Penn and disrupt trade with Canada. A joint Gettysburg/Virginia force will confront Delmarva. Kentucky and Virginia will invade North Penn/State College, and Gettysburg will occupy southern Reading and southern State College with support from Virginia.
  • The war breaks out full scale from skirmishes that were occurring between Delmarva and Virginia in early July 2021.
  • Delmarva is preparing a naval operation to land troops and recapture some military bases, but are forced to divert and defend against a large assault on the surviving military bases on Delmarvian controlled Virginia (former US state).
  • They are also forced to divert some reserves and artillery north to defend against some light attacks by Gettysburg in former Maryland.
  • North Penn and State College were anticipating an attack but are still pushed back a bit with State College not prepared for a two front war and North Penn was not anticipating Superior naval operations, which hinders trade. However overland trade still occurs and London and Niagara Falls make it clear an act of aggression towards neutral shipping is an act of war on their countries. The two nations are pushed back a bit to former PA Route 422 in the north and east.
  • Reading is taken completely off guard and a training exercise between Reading and Susquehanna is quickly reoriented to fend off the invasion. Gettysburg occupies a small portion of southern Northumberland County in Susquehanna (more as a statement) but are unable to take Fort Indiantown Gap, like it was hoping.
  • Reading and Susquehanna begin to mobilize their military forces and form a unified force under Reading. The PA survivor states form two tasks forces with North Penn/State College leading in the west and Reading in the east. A joint command center is set up in State College for Delmarva and all of PA to coordinate.
  • Meanwhile, Virginia sets up the equivalent at the Greenbriar.

I'm still gathering my thoughts on this, but what is the group consensus?

Overall, I think the combined Delmarva/PA force would be victorious just given their alliance with Canada and the ADC, who may intervene and at a minimum would likely supply the best weapons money could buy. I think Virginia would be forced to recognize Delmarva control over parts of eastern Virginia (state), while being limited in Pennsylvania to already occupied territory. Nothing would happen to the rest of the Dixie Alliance or Superior beyond financial penalties and losses in manpower and equipment. I don't think much territory would actually change hands as I don't think any of the nations have the manpower to actually secure and control land that was original part of the enemy.

I think it would end similar to how the Saguenay War ended, where the D/PA alliance is beginning to push hard against the Dixie Alliance forces to a point they may win, but the ADC and Canada press the group to stop as an invasion would be unlikely to succeed and controlling the territory would be impossible. I could see the Dixie Alliance being disbanded by the victors, but reformed rapidly under a different name by Kentucky and Virginia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I think I should let let you that I left a request on lahbas page to adopt superior . I must confess I forgot to sign my post but according to labhas talk page history I was the last person to edit his talk page. Labhas didn't responce so I belive I now own superior but I could be worng. I perfer to think superior reject virigna offer, that superio new persident consider the squenacy war be a mistake of the pervious and he dosn't think it is a good idea to send troops die in a forgin country war. He also dosn't feel comfortable with virgina's miltance.

United States Defense Force

Given the position of the US as a major power in North America, I think it should have a separate military page.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Why did you choose the name defense forces against armed forces?

Alex (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

To match what the nation page said, that the US Armed Forces were renamed to Defense Force. Personally, I don’t agree with this or see this happening, but I wanted to match canon.

I also reduced the number of vessels from the USAR because from what I found there weren’t even that many ships operating in the Atlantic at that time. Most of the US Navy was operating in the Pacific Ocean. Two of the ship classes mentioned were out of service in the late 1970’s so they would likely not be able to evacuate as the Naval Reserve Fleet doesn’t crew the ships, it just maintains them in mothball to bring back into active service during a crisis.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

If there is a consensus that it should be the United States Armed Forces, I am more than happy to change it!

Also, to note, in the Navy I am mentioning that the Department of Defense plans to rebalance the Navy by relocating part of the surviving USAR fleet to Newport, Oregon. There is a small shipyard inland from Newport in Toledo, Oregon that could support the smaller vessels and could likely be expanded to support larger vessels over time.

These are the ships I have in the Navy:

From the US Navy

  • Aircraft Carrier
    • Forrestal-class: One (1)
  • Amphibious Assault Ship
    • Tarawa-class: One (1)
  • Amphibious Transport Dock
    • Austin-class: One (1)
  • Amphibious Assault Ship
    • Tarawa-class: One (1)
  • Dock Landing Ship
    • Thompson-class: One (1)
  • Tank Landing Ship
    • Newport-class: Two (2)
    • Thompson-class: One (1)
  • Cruiser
    • Belknap-class: One (1)
    • Leahy-class Two (2)
    • Ticonderoga-class: One (1)
  • Nuclear Cruiser
    • Leahy-class (Nuclear): One (1)
    • Long Beach-class (Nuclear): One (1)
  • Destroyer
    • Charles F. Adams: Four (4)
    • Farragut-class: Two (2)
    • Forrest Sherman-class: One (1)
    • Kidd-class: One (1)
    • Spruance-class: Eight (8)
  • Frigate
    • Knox-class: Five (5)
    • Oliver Hazard Perry-class: Four (4)
  • Nuclear Submarine
    • Los Angeles-class: One (1)
    • Sturgeon-class: One (1)
  • Fleet Oiler
    • Cimarron-class: One (1)
    • Neosho-class: One (1)
  • Rescue and Salvage
    • Bolster-class: Two (2)

From the US Coast Guard

  • Cutter
    • Hamilton-class: One (1)

Newport, Oregon has a coast guard station, which in 1983 appeared to have a 41 Foot Utility Boat and at least one or two 44 Foot Motor Life Boats.

All the ships listed were either on patrol in the Caribbean, transiting the Panama Canal, or were deployed (in OTL) a month after ATL Doomsday for Operation Urgent Fury where the US invaded Grenada. My reasoning is that the invasion seemed last minute (with planning beginning on October 19th and the invasion began on October 25th) so I can’t imagine that ships were pulled from outside of the region.

Two of the vessels I found were finishing up repairs in Newport News and were redeployed in October/November of 1983 and seemed to be preparing for deployment at that time. It might be a stretch, but given everything I think it is reasonably plausible that a few ships escaped.

I think the USAR page has too many ships being objective. From Wikipedia and a website delineating navy ship deployments it appears the bulk of the Navy was deployed in the Pacific and the ships I have listed seems to be about 1/3rd of the Atlantic Fleet, which I think is realistic. While the Soviet Navy was more concentrated around defending the USSR against American nuclear attacks, it was more built to destroy submarines than fight naval battles, so I don’t think it would have had major operations in the Gulf of Mexico or Caribbean. The Cuban Navy I don’t think had the firepower to actually engage the US Navy so I don’t think that would be a threat.

I have both nuclear cruisers and nuclear submarines being out of commission for around two decades as their fuel is depleted before being refitted by Brazil in the mid-2000’s. Two of the older destroyers I have as being transferred to the US Coast Guard as cutters (after WWII the US navy transferred Destroyer Escorts to the Coast Guard as cutters, so there is precedent).

I am indicating the US Navy plans on transferring many of the vessels from the Atlantic to the Pacific to reform the Pacific Fleet.

Atlantic Fleet

  • Aircraft Carrier
    • Forrestal-class: One (1)
  • Amphibious Transport Dock
    • Austin-class: One (1)
  • Tank Landing Ship
    • Newport-class: One (1)
  • Cruiser
    • Leahy-class (Nuclear): One (1)
    • Long Beach-class (Nuclear): One (1)
    • Leahy-class Two (2)
  • Destroyer
    • Charles F. Adams: Four (4)
    • Kidd-class: One (1)
    • Spruance-class: Four (4)
  • Frigate
    • Oliver Hazard Perry-class: Four (4)
  • Submarine
    • Los Angeles-class: One (1)
  • Fleet Oiler
    • Cimarron-class: One (1)
  • Rescue and Salvage
    • Bolster-class: One (1)

Pacific Fleet

  • Amphibious Assault Ship
    • Tarawa-class: One (1)
  • Dock Landing Ship
    • Thompson-class: One (1)
  • Tank Landing Ship
    • Newport-class: One (1)
    • Thompson-class: One (1)
  • Cruiser
    • Belknap-class: One (1)
    • Ticonderoga-class: One (1)
  • Destroyer
    • Farragut-class: Two (2)
    • Forrest Sherman-class: One (1)
    • Spruance-class: Four (4)
  • Frigate
    • Knox-class: Five (5)
  • Submarine
    • Sturgeon-class: One (1)
  • Fleet Oiler
    • Neosho-class: One (1)
  • Rescue and Salvage
    • Bolster-class: One (1)

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:38, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Largo Foods 1983

A food processing conglomerate form the Celtic alliance.

Two things:

  1. Please sign your posts with your username in the talk threads so we know who is making the suggestion. You can make a signature with four tildes ‘Daeseunglim (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)’
  2. Please follow the naming convention of PAGE TITLE (1983: Doomsday)

Note that PAGE TITLE is a placeholder and would be the name of your proposed topic (in this case, Largo Foods).

Thank you.

Daeseunglim (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Creation of the Baltic Alliance

Hello... again, I think the Baltic Alliance was a planned organisation for 1983: Doomsday but wasn't finished, so I'm asking for permission to create it! INTLHI (talk) 01:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I’m not as involved in this region, however, check out the Nordic Union page. It encompasses the Baltic states and includes Estonia which joined as a member in 2010, Courland (which replaced Latvia) joined as an observer in late 2011, and Lithuania joined as an observer in mid 2011.

I don’t know how practical a Baltic Union would be, unless the intention was solely a defensive military alliance to protect against the rapidly approaching and expanding by USSR. Daeseunglim (talk) 09:56, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Rapidly approaching and expand USSR.

Still behind the Urals, in Asia.

Alex (talk) 12:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I spoken with some germans yesterday and some even members of this wiki, they said that Germans as well us Italians, French and other nations that are a republic for more then 50 years have said to me that Germans don't miss the monarchy and only neo nazi or kaiserboo have this fetish towards the monarchy, so yeah i agree with Sigma that if the original writers wanted Prussia so much then a "Prussian State" or a "Prussian Republic" would had work so much better in my opinion, but here we are.

Thou i still think that if you want a monarchy then it has to be democratic as possible, on the level of the United Kingdom, no way semi authoritarian monarchies are gonna work in 21th century Europe were all of the monarchies are constitutional and parliamentaries one. Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "fetish" is rather insulting, fyi.

Much as I think the poll is bogus (as noted why, plus I suspect, and exit polling tends to support this in other fields, that "social pressure" and other factors mean the number is actually higher, especially if you use specifics) you quoted it so we'll use it. A third of Germans are in favor, according to it. At most, and that is in the last election, your "neo-nazis" (who don't support a crown, fyi), just a bit over 10% of the vote. That's the most they've gotten in decades, since long before DD. Now, I'm aware that a certain portion of the "tent" conservative parties are going to agree with them on some level, but not a majority or even a plurality of their members will be. So your statement isn't true.

That current upswing is more about the EU than anything, as a note. You see a similar increase on the more communist side of things.

You see about the same patterns in place in the other western republics. There is a reason why, in France for example, they legally care about who the claimants are, and even today, two of the three general political patterns there are "Bonapartism" and "Bourbonism," even if the overall monarchial ties are shorted out right now. As an example, Du Gualle is someone from the more Bonaparte school, with regards to policies and attitudes.

But that is today - we're talking about 1983-1990. Different picture. You know your older relatives, the ones that want a return to the "good old days"? Ignoring a lot of the more bigoted parts (not saying there is with yours, but you get the idea) it is about the world as they knew it when they were young, and/or the stories they were told growing up. A lot of the politicians, and the like, of the era are those who were born in the WWII era, or just before. Meaning that their parents were that generation for WWI. So that "drawback" to the past here would have been for those glory days, in their minds. Ahh, Nostalgia.

Now, republicanism in Germany has never been a strong thing by itself. Kind of a this is what works thing, if that makes sense. There's a reason why there was at least two (Hanover and Bavaria) moves for crowns/independence after WWII, which failed largely due to US pressures. And the Easterners have been under dictators since the 1930s by this point - they'll want a strong leadership of some sort, which the westerners won't go for on near the same level. About the only in between there is a crown, so... Add to that the "foreign" garrisons of West Berlin.... Presto! If nothing else, call it the king an independent arbiter.

Prussia is mostly a constitutional state, but, as noted, you've got to have a stronger monarchy than others to satisfy things, especially given the trying times of DD.

Western Monarchies, btw, have a lot more power than you think. It's just that by practice and culture, they don't do it.

Lordganon (talk) 14:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Eh, it's more than fair to call the giant list of restored monarchies in this TL a "fetish". I'm guilty of it too and regret doing it for Hawaii (quite possibly the earliest example of the trope in this timeline). Any individual case might be justified, but it's happened in well over a dozen countries. I suspect this has much to do with the typical alternate history enthusiast's interest in dynasties and genealogy, very little to do with a real assessment of what people in the different communities would look for if society ever collapsed. And Prussia's one of the sillier ones, in my opinion. Like Alex says, it's a pretty obvious case of Kaiserreich fanboyism with a story written around it.
Now it happens that said story has developed into something that's not that bad. It's been through an extensive Review process and fitted pretty well into the overall setting, with enough there to justify some of the more outlandish turns of events. I wouldn't support a total rewrite of the canon unless there was a very strong desire to do it by everyone involved. (And honestly I'd be willing to do the same for Hawaii, I'm sort of annoyed to be part of the problem like that.) False Dmitri (talk) 02:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

<Freely admits to being guilty of that "trope" by virtue of being a monarchist>

Not a "fetish." that's insulting. There's a lot of better terms for the idea you mean.

Funny enough, with the loss of the capital/Oahu and the larger bases, the "haole" population of Hawaii would have taken as massive hit. Add that the "locals" are far more inclined to be in favor of independence... bet that one makes sense more than almost anywhere else globally, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's what I had thought too, but some reading since then shows that Maui and the Big Island's ethnic demographics aren't all that different from the state as a whole. But again my point is that any one restoration might be understandable. It becomes almost humorously absurd when the same thing happens absolutely everywhere. I count twelve thirteen states in Europe alone that are governed by royals today that were not in 1982. Add four or five more in Central Asia. Individually any might have a reason. In the aggregate it's ridiculous. Like everyone looked out the window and said, "On my! Nuclear war! We'd better call up the nearest heir to a deposed dynasty." I am strongly in favor of reducing this crowd of restaurados and I'm more than willing to start with the page that I created. Prussia too - if there's a strong community will to do it, and a credible and well-written alternative. False Dmitri (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
<waggles hands> Depends on how you count the "ethnicity" and who is doing the counting - varies from a hundred thousand "pure" natives, to more than 500k that can claim descent (and often do) in the islands alone. One of those things, you know? As for the idea... restorations, maybe, but we don't see enough states that have people declare themselves such and control areas, so it probably somewhat evens out. Lordganon (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"DD, tell more of your plans."

Apologies for not seeing all this until April, real life stuff and procrastination got in the way. What I want to add to the Prussia page is some extra history and nuance to waht I see as a rather contrived even:, mostly on how the monarchy came to be, Prussia's history post-2011, some additions to its culture, economy, and political structure.

I wrote a pretty good summmation of what I want on the AH Wikia Discord, so I'll just repost it here.

Obligatory wall of text warning. Also, some stuff is from my personal headcanon, so disregard anything about surviving cities and the like. About 90% of it is what I actually want.

The former DDR is dominated by Prussia, which got off lucky thanks to the Soviet first strike crippling much of NATO's short-range ability to respond, sparing a handful of cities in the north (most major Berzik capitals north of the Elbe river, the south got screwed over thanks to population density and its industrial areas). Honecker and much of the higher-level officials were found dead from suicide, imprisoned or were outright lynched in some cases. As for the NATO and WP forces stationed in the city, cooler heads prevailed as they set about stabilising Berlin, bringing both sides of the capital and some of the surrounding cities (Postdam, Bernau) into a loose military government. Sounds contrived, I know, but I had to justify why the DDR and Soviet troops just didn't massacre their NATO counterparts.

Much of the northern DDR is reclaimed in the ensuing months and years, clearing out much of the de-facto Stasi and Volksarmee warlords that controlled the surviving northern towns and cities. After almost a decade (1991-92-ish), the Interim Administration for a United Germany is replaced with a revived Prussian state (mostly after they find out that much of the old East and West is unsalvageable for the time being), led by a surviving Hohenzollern (it can be Christian-Sigismund, but I like to think that Louis Ferdinand was in Berlin at the time of DD). Much of the already established lore for Prussia (war with Poland, the Treaty of Wolfsburg) takes place, but I felt like the backstory needed some polishing and nuance.

Modern Prussia is stuck somewhere between a semi-absolute monarchy (effectively a replacement for the General Secretary - though the King rarely exercises his power), a military dictatorship (the military largely stays out of politics as well) and a mildly corrupt - if functioning - democracy (the 'Socialist Royalists' are a pretty weird idea, if I'm honest. If anything, a market-friendly CDU-type would be in charge, thanks to the DDR's high degree of social conservatism and Prussia's need to distance itself from any form of socialism). Think Thailand, mixed with the Weimar Republic and the German Empire under Frederich III.

The Prussians idolize many of the anti-fascist and communist resistance members (the White Rose movement, July 20 Plotters, the Freikorps and the hundreds of dissidents who were targeted by the Stasi by the DDR) from German history, while also standing in firm opposition to the 'Americanised' democracy of the old West, claiming to be the heirs to the Weimar Republic, the Frankfurt Parliament and the Kaiserreich. Any fascist/natsoc and communist parties are banned, while those that associate with the movements are put under a great amount of social pressure and surveillance (ironic, I know, but the Prussians had to work with what they had...).

Regular street battles between the police, neo-Nazis, a revived Antifaschistische Aktion/Red Army Faction/Kampfgruppen LARPers are a regular feature in Berlin. Prussia is one of Europe's major industrial powers, having recovered what they could from the nuked cities (Halle Neustadt has taken over much of the old nuked, neighbouring city) built much of their heavy industry from scratch and an unlikely source of consumer electronics, thanks to the survival of factories in Strassfurt, Berlin and Teltow. Its relations with the southern states of Saxony and Weimar are cordial, thanks to the surviving universities in the latter and surviving industry (even if Karl Marx Stadt is still outwardly socialist - think of Saxony as the Belarus to Prussia's Russia) in the former.

I'm running with the theory that most regimes tend to use the state systems that came before them. Like how Russia merely replaced the Tsar with an all powerful General-Secretary, only to be replaced with an oligarch in turn. So Prussia would be a flawed democracy at best. Years of martial law and military rule would only make restoring a liberal democracy harder. Because the public remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis and East German regime, the government doesn't overextend itself that often.

West Berlin gets this reputation of being a progressive mecca and a thorn in the side of the mostly-conservative establishment. Conscription's still on the books, though there is an option for civil service. Said civil service no longer comes with the government-backed discrimination that it did in the East, but the stigma might still be there on a social level.

TL;DR the basic theme I want to have for the Prussia page is "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I also threw together a strike map some months back, which may help with figuring out what cities survive in the DDR and what doesn't. I used both the canon Prussia article with whatever other Cold War-era resources I could find.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Considering how long it takes me to research and reply to things and be relatively calm about it, can't judge you.

DD, that is more or less the idea of a review - adding to an article to make it better/more plausible, or removing parts that aren't, changing as little as possible. Your goal is sound.

I would say that the GDR leadership mostly ends up dead in riots, by Soviet forces, etc. Not so much suicide or imprisoned. Maybe have some stuck in their bunkers for a few months, might be funny.

Neubrandenburg would likely be ok, I think, though it looks like we should add Schwerin and Cottbus to the strikes. Doesn't really change much.

Louis Ferdinand was probably in Bremen at DD, where his grandson was attending school.

Truthfully, we can't place any of the family for sure in Berlin, though it is likely that one was.

Can't see the two sides getting together, at least right away. WB is designed, somewhat, by 1983 to last in a siege - and they are walled in, so relatively secure with little reason to come out. They'll get together eventually, mind.

About right on the government, I think, though the Royal Socialist party is more possible than you think. Same logic as the socialist parties in Scandinavia. See no reason for them to want anything to do with the old Weimar Republic, mind.

No way there is battles in the street. Anyone trying that would get shut down right away by soldiers.

About right on the liberal democracy and West Berlin.

Have a look at the map on the Germany article for strikes, etc.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Just about anywhere that a base is hit, the city it is beside/in/against is gone. I would say combine the two strike lists, and remove the surviving city part.

Stendal would explain some things - that area is where we really lack anything organized near the border, compared to other parts. A near-intact division would explain that well.

Poznan isn't the only major city to survive in Poland.

I would adjust the part about Christian-Sigismund changed to having him survive in West Berlin, and rest assumed dead in the West. There's no record of them being imprisoned anywhere.

Radio transmissions should be made "directed" as well, at least in the early years.

Probably should adjust a lot of the first contact things, too.

Lordganon (talk) 11:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

A lot of East German military bases aren't like American ones, with them being so dangerously close to cities. I 'did the math' for all these bases and cities in nukemap, assuming that the former were hit one or two low-yield nukes (anything below between a 100-200 kt, as is seemingly standard for both NATO/WP military bases). The city of Cottbus is arguably the safest bet, as the airbase of the same name lies some distance (approx. 25 km - roughly the same distance between Berlin and Strausberg) away from the city proper. The other cities would either be outright destroyed (Strausberg) or would suffer minor-to-substantial (but not enough to wipe out the city) damage from shockwaves and fires (Zossen).

If it weren't for Wunsdorf (erroneously labelled as Zossen, which is just the nearby town) getting nuked, I planned to have it become some sort of 'Little Moscow', a hub for Prussia's substantial Russian-speaking community outside of Stendal or Berlin.

I'm yet to touch the history section, as that'll require some time to plan. I'll integrate the surviving cities/bases things into whatever section might deserve a mention of them (i.e. Halle-Neustad for its industry and clean-up of the old city, Stendal being a major army base, Wolgast for its shipyards).

First contact will be cleaned out, and will probably be done some years before the original article. Contact with North Germany and the other ex-DDR statelets (Thuringia, Saxony) will probably happen in the late 1980s, especially for the latter two.

Also, while I'm here, I checked the talk page for Weimar/Thuringia and the author said that he intended to have Weimar and Berlin unify under the Prussian banner at some point in the 'near future'. Can I get the go-ahead on that? Thuringia has major universities, some leftover tech hubs (much of the DDR's non-heavy industry - namely chemicals, electronics, vehicle production - were very much 'in the sticks' and wouldn't get hit at all. Nuking a village that just so happens to contain a TV factory is a bit of a waste). Saxony probably wouldn't want to unify due to it being effectively a hold-out of the old DDR.

Once I've sorted out RL stuff, I'll get to working on the rest of the page ASAP.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Salento LoN Protectorate

Hi guys, since i intend to review the article of Sicily, me and othe others had agree that the Lecce mandate was too much bias towards the Italians, so i rewrite it in my sandbox. Basically here after the initial 5 - 6 years of Greek administration both the LoN and the ADC agreed that the mandate should be over by now and in the same year Greece is forced to create a joint administration with Sicily, while at the same time removing Greek troops, LoN peacekeepers would take their place. I expanded the history of the mandate, his administration, defence and others.

Salento

Lecce Mal3ssio97 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Scotland

No idea where to begin. The whole premise is pretty ridiculous. No sense of history or the political conditions were taken into account. Neither was the fact that a blast at the Leith Docks (which likely would hit off the coast and not on top of it) would also at a maximum lead to 100,000 casualties and 10,000 deaths and not lead to any more damage to the central govt buildings than broken windows and potential third degree burns for those unfortunate enough to be outside at the point (IF it hits Leith itself). It also fails to take into account the lack of a nuke to Glencorse Barracks or the fact that a 15kt bomb would struggle to destroy the various dockyards hit, let alone cause less than light damage to the surrounding towns. The only plausible thing here would be that the airbases would all be destroyed... but not all the aircraft.

Add to the fact that the HMS Dalriada, the naval reserve in Glasgow, and HMS Scotia both survive and Scotland descending into... whatever it is that has been written is frankly implausible.

The lack of any mention of the cities of Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee or Perth compounds this problem, with Aberdeen very easily able to take the lead in matters to the north, and an easy source of fuel for the struggling nation in the early days post-DD. Thankfully, after speaking with Ben, I am committed to preserving as much of the shape of Britain - so the Celtic Alliance will still exist, but frankly this would be the start of a major overhaul of the British Isles to add some realism to everything. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that part of the solution, if Scotland seems to have fared too badly given the list of strikes, is to simply add more strikes. 15kt won't do the job? Make it bigger. Add a few more cities, if they're justifiable. That list of targets is always being expanded as we add more fiery deaths to our dystopian hellscape.

That said, I can definitely get behind making changes to correct the often-haphazard way that the Britain content was put together. You might want to explore the contributions of Todetode. They had ideas similar to yours. Last year they submitted a huge amount of updated content, but when people didn't read it immediately they got angry, withdrew their proposals, and essentially vandalized all of their own work. But some of their ideas are still lying around, potentially useful.

You also ought to communicate these ideas with SigmaHero045, who is planning to write a lot of recent history for Britain, and whose plans would definitely be affected by any change to the lore.

Good luck with this. I probably won't be able to help much, it's really outside my areas of expertise (as Todetode learned to their frustration). False Dmitri (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thing is the current list of strikes matches up pretty well with the expected nuclear strikes that were both anticipated by Britain and were planned for by the Soviets. The Soviets had no plans to nuke any of the cities above the central belt of Scotland, so the current list of strikes does make sense. Adding more strikes would have the same effect of having no strikes in the sense that it would make it harder for the region to become part of the Celtic Alliance. With decent changes, and changing the reasoning behind the origins of the Celtic Alliance, we can still have some sort of alignment with what has currently been written. But again, Ireland does need to be looked at as Northern Ireland was dealt with pretty badly and that region would be a definite hotspot for chaos and ugliness. However, if spun right, it could be the impetus for closer relations between Ireland and Scotland and lead to the creation of the Celtic Alliance. And not to fear, adding chaos in Ireland will add with the whole dystopian hellscape vibe.

I'll have a look at Todetode's ideas, and have already messaged SigmaHero, hopefully he gets in touch with me and shares his thoughts and ideas on the situation. Thank you for the good wishes, there is going to be a lot of ground to cover. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at TheSmartPenguin23 (edits from 2019 in the history) for ideas too.

I have to say, though - Aberdeen and Dundee aren't listed on the CA page as cities, and I think they'd be targets. The oil industry at Aberdeen was up and running by DD, and the shipbuilders in Dundee aren't insignificant - they made Carrier sized ships at one point, and frigates more recently (compared to 1983), and could be used to repair a navy comparatively easily if left alone.

As Ben said, the bombs aren't that strong - make them bigger and you solve most of the problem - adjust Glasgow/Edinburgh as needed. For that matter, the UK is probably out of range of tactical warheads anyway, so it would be needed anyways.

With most of the NI leadership on both sides and their more radical supporters wiped out (and, given fallout from Belfast and the wind patterns, probably a lot more Protestant dead) I suspect you'd have less trouble there than you think there would be.

More things to remark on, but that can wait until things are fleshed out more, though I will say - the capital of Northumbria is at Alnwick because that is where the county seat of Northumberland is, where its Dukes live, and where they'd base themselves out of.

Lordganon (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Some good points raised there LG. Also good to see you back. So I did actually think about Aberdeen and Dundee not being targeted and looked up information on that front. Both Soviet and British planning avoided the cities being nuked, with Soviet planning actually highlighting the dock capability you mentioned as this would be used for a potential landing site for Soviet troops (a depressing thought, personally). As the nukes were launched most likely at targets pre-planned it would make sense for the cities of the north to avoid nuclear bombs. Along with this, I think the bombs that hit Edinburgh and Glasgow would be realistic, and what instead is probably a better move is that the 200kt nuke on Glasgow hits more to the west where major RN installations are located which would make sense as they would knock out naval capability.
I also understand that these docks in Aberdeen could be used for repairs, but realistically Scotland would not much be able to pull off anything of the sort as their main issue just becomes survival and the like. Belfast also only has the one nuke hitting it, so will need to look into the positioning of the military bases which would likely be priority number one. Derry was also a major hub for the British while the troubles were going on and thus they would likely remain alive. Probably add to the matter that Belfast would probably still have survivors and you have a decent recipe for utter chaos. Food shortages and problems will likely only add to flare up tensions and would likely radicalise a good chunk of the population and give us further chaos and a chance for organisations such as the UVF to capitalise upon.
Ah, now Alnwick makes sense, I was left pretty confused by it tbh. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, Southern Scotland has been through hell, but 23,000 is way to low because:

  1. None of the wars ended it it being geocoded.
  2. Unscathed Borders Region had a population of about 95,000 (55,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Lothian would OTL number 200,000ish (125,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). Unscathed Dumfries and Galloway had a population of about 105,000 (66,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Central Region would OTL number about 100,000 (65,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?).
  3. Borders Region has good farmland in it's valleys.
  4. Lothian got more lightly hit than it should have been.
  5. Central Region (Less Falkirk) and Dumfries & Galloway were lightly populated places to. A hit on the port of Grangemouth (plus any military bases, if any) would be all that would be hit. There would be radiation blowing in from elsewhere.

Politics would run as follows:

  1. Conservative zones- Dumfries and Galloway, Borders Region, Mid Lothian, East Lothian, Edinburgh and Steiring.
  2. Labour zones- West Lothian, Edinburgh, Clackmannan and Falkirik
  3. Liberal\SDP zones- Edinburgh and all of Borders Region
  4. SNP zones- West Lothian, Galloway and Steiring
  5. Indpendent\residents associations- All of Dumfries and Galloway, Stirling, East Lothian and all of Borders Region

~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are exactly talking about but I'll try to answer anyway. First of all I am not quite sure what or why you are referencing the numbers for but long story short Soviet planning indicated Scotland as a potential target for invasion and, after talking to Kuupik on the matter, the current hits of canon on most military bases along with the two city nukes make sense in that regard as it would make any potential future invasion all that much easier, allowing them to use Scotland as a base to control the UK - as well as having non-irradiated lands to base this invasion/subjugation from.
If those numbers reference current canon, then all I can say is all that is subject to change.
As for politics, there will likely be no comparison with OTL apart from broad strokes. The SNP are also likely finished as a party - their cause doesn't matter anymore. There will also be a very large number of refugees from the south which will further complicate the political makeup of the nation. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem with the concept of the targets being limited in Scotland is that it has its basis in the early 1970s report for the the British government that thought only 106 targets were in the UK... which mostly assumed only bomber hits, and ignored subs and the possibility of more tactical weapons. Other problems include such things as targeting Cambridge and not Oxford, hitting small observation posts with multi megaton strikes, using tiny hits on some cities and huge ones on others (out of proportion both ways). Scotland in particular is a example of problems cited by its critics, specifically mentioning Aberdeen being left alone as a problem, for example.

As for Scotland as an invasion site... while the Soviets may have planned something like that - not that I can find a real plan of it, but w/e - these are also the same planners that thought they could nuke the hell out of Germany and still advance safely through it, in addition to that having no responses from NATO and an invasion of France not getting nuked.... taking both within less than a month. They weren't exactly all that brilliant or logical about it, so nuking the heck out of an invasion site wouldn't phase them.

More later, but this part has been bugging me most.

Lordganon (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

So a little update with the working plan on that front - we are adding a strike to Aberdeen, likely around the 50-100kt size, right onto the harbour in the centre of the city. I fully agree the invasion plan does not make sense, and even if it was considered, it would be thrown out as soon as the scale of Doomsday became clear. The city is of too great an importance to Scotland and the UK to just be skipped. A hit there should adequately cripple Scotland, enough to roughly align with the extant levels of chaos, rather than having to rewrite the whole narrative to fit the original list of targets. It would also wreck the oil industry for years, which I don't imagine would begin producing again until at least the 90s.
As for Dundee, I'm still not sure how likely a target it is, as it lacks the twofold importance of Aberdeen (oil/port), especially considering similarly-sized cities in the rest of the UK were spared. FP 14:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Egypt

In a large-scale follow up to the review of Greece, I'm putting forward a plan for Egypt and Kemet. I think it's fair to say that I came up with most of the broad outlines; Imperium Guy did most of the actual research and will write most of the details; ForsakenPear did even more fine-grained research and will contribute even more fine-grained details; and Mal3ssio97 produced multiple versions of the maps. For this Gothic cathedral of a proposal, it's Mal's blueprint, my block of stone, Imp's gargoyle, and FP's grotesquely carved facial features.

As ever, the goal is to keep as much the same as possible, while correcting things that were truly implausible. In Egypt's case, the biggest problems were the giant Greek colony, an overly-ambitious irrigation project, and more than a hint of the anti-Muslim bias that affects many of the earlier pages of the timeline. The following chart shows the plans for what to keep and what to change.

There's still... ... but now...
a Muslim Brotherhood takeover in 1984 there will more exploration around the motives for their actions, so they aren't just cartoon villains.
an Israeli attack against Cairo in 1987 the prelude to war, with lots of climate and agricultural factors, will be explained in the complexity that such an event deserves.
Greek support for survivors near the coast they're supporting the remnants of Egypt's navy, the only national institution to survive, rather than Copts who congregate in the Delta. For its efforts, Greece will reap close ties to Egypt and influence over its development, rather than an enormous colony.
a Coptic-dominated state called Kemet that forms in the aftermath it'll be in the south, not the north, where the Copts actually are concentrated. (Putting the Coptic state in the Delta seems to have mostly been a plot device made to facilitate a Greek takeover.) And there's going to be a more complete explanation as to why the Copts gather, why they take the step of forming a state, and how they maintain their independence from Egypt.
Greek presence in a zone in Suez supervised by the League of Nations it's an international zone rather than a Greek colony. Greek forces cooperate with contingents from Egypt, Kemet, Israel, and the Gulf.
a large hydrology and irrigation project in the Western Desert an enormous amount of geological and climatological research has produced a plan for a hopefully more realistic project. It will be a series of canals that feed oases, but rather than an entire second Eonile, the water not absorbed or evaporated will return to the Nile along a more feasible course, which is not yet complete. Also, it began under the Muslim Brotherhood and today is a joint project of the Arab Republic and Kemet.
peaceful coexistence between the Arab Republic and Kemet, and between Egypt and Israel it will be a peace based on mutual interests, strategic cooperation, and realpolitik, rather than one enforced by Greek colonizers.

- False Dmitri (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh and PS, having the Prince of the Muhammad Ali dynasty fly over from Monaco to universal acclaim will also be removed. I missed that detail when I first wrote up this chart. Enough is enough. False Dmitri (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Update: I have completed rewrites for Kemet and the History section of Egypt. A lot of the text is adapted from material originally by Imperium Guy (and of course incorporating ideas from ForsakenPear). Hopefully I'll get to the other sections soon, but in the meantime please read and critique. False Dmitri (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
One final substantive change that I had not anticipated - in the absence of a Greece that is colonizing everything, it seems implausible that Egypt would be able to seize control of those Libyan oilfields. The arrangement made sense in a world where Greece was heavily colonizing both Libya and Egypt and conceded a portion of the oilfields to Egypt as a kind of compensation. But an independent Cyrenaica would fight to keep them, surely - and I don't think that Egypt would be willing to wage a war for territory, not after what had happened the last time. So I've kept it where Egypt annexes Kufra. Egypt tried to occupy some of those oil-rich areas but had to return them to Cyrenaica, in exchange for some kind of exploitation rights. But no direct pipeline to Egypt, that wouldn't stand. False Dmitri (talk) 02:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
One more update - FP did some work with the canal and the climate. So the prose has transitioned and reflects the new version. Some things need to be added, in particular an updated map and names for Egypt's recent presidents. False Dmitri (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

We're getting close to finishing off Egypt and dare I say it works quite well now. The population is three and a half times greater [than what it was previously in canon] but this is with the solid research of multiple papers and statistics breaking down the volume of different crops produced on the Nile and all their individual water usage. It's pretty easy to understand why Egypt was referred to as the breadbasket when we factor in the total volume of water used by water-intensive crops in the present day such as cotton and watermelon and come to realise had they been growing wheat instead of these, the present day nation would be (conservatively) able to feed over 200 million people.

Yea, the Nile is insane.

Even with the population rise, the region's population remains below pre-dd levels which I think is a decent balance. Everything else with the article works and as Fx works on fleshing out the Middle East things can easily be added to both Egypt and the Gulf States as thankfully there will be no issues with canon. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Hello to everyone, i'm Alessio, caretaker of the article about Sicily, i will expain down here in a handy and simple, table with a comparison of both versions.

Argument Old version New version
Formation of the republic Establishment of the state with a possible coup d'etat, not specified in the old article. Creation of an agreement between the Clans of Palermo, the Stidda (Clans of Eastern Sicily, independent from Cosa Nostra) and the regional government, alongside military officers present in the island.
Causes of the formation Decision of Cosa Nostra to control Sicily Managing the post-apocalyptic scenario and minimize any damage done by it, as well avoid any possible famine or rioting thanks to the influence of the Mafia, in return, the clans asked the drop of any former criminal charge against them and their associates and the capture of Totò Riina and his Corleonesi.
What happen to the Mafia? Consolidation of their power and via Fascist actions. With the drop of any charges against them, many will enter into politics, or turn their old illegal activities (Depending on what) into legal companies or corporations that are approved by the state, generating a small amount of economical revival alongside.
Form of government A fascist dictatorship run by the Mafia The government here will hold its first elections in 1986, after the creation of a new constitution, inspired from that of the old Italian Republic, the new form of the state will be a semi-presidential republic, deemed necessary because the parliamentary system is seen as too much expensive and too much consuming time.
Between 1984 and 1988 Period of relative peace, economical stability and martial law. The first decade after the war would see near to zero or zero economical growth or even stability, the main goal of the regional government is to survive and avoid any starvation or the possibility of revolts or riots, by 1985, Sicily had restored their electrical generating capabilities and continued to stabilise further. Food rationing, however, was still in place and people were advised to try to start producing food for themselves, this until 1998. In this, the mafia would come in handy by giving the government the resources necessary for a successful farming industry such as: fertilizers, seeds, terrains and other resources needed for the region to survive better than other nations.


The confiscation of Corleonesi properties also helped, providing housing for refugees to the island.

Reunification of the peninsula The military operations, done with the help of neo-fascist militias will be done in just over a year, from March of 1987 to December of 1988. The government in 1986 would hold various meetings with the Cheif of Staff (Army, Navy, Air Force and US forces) about a possible invasion of the peninsula for the reclamation of the land for the Italian provisional government, from 1987 to 1988 the armed forces would conduct exercises and operations simulating land invasions and long marches across dangerous terrains. The military operations would start February-March of 1988 and ending in May of 1990 with the capture of the Peninsula up until the ex-regions of Marche and Umbria and up until the Arno river.


Seeing the limited resources that the government would have, and acquire during the reconquest the invasion by sea of Genoa and Venice (is literally a fortress) would be scrapped in favour of land operations that would have passed via Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany by the year 1992 or after it.

Afterwards Cold peace between themselves and his neighbours, with economical developments and industrializations. On the 17th of March of 1991 the government would end to saw itself as the provisional government of the Italian Republic and declare the reformation of the Italian Republic, and declaring the current government the 46th national government; succeeding the 45th government of Bettino Craxi and entering the 10th Legislature of the Italian Republic.

With the stability in the reconquered areas of the peninsula, the government would start a process of economical reintegration and of investments in the poorest areas of the republic, also here, seeing how bad did the specified interventions of the pre-war government in motivating the local economy with industries (they were called "Oasis in a desert" for a reason), the government here instead would give funds to local authorities and local companies for let them choose what to invest and in what sectors. And also it will be in this period that limited trade relations with surviving governments and post-apocalyptic entities would commence, the most profitable trade partners for Italy during the 90s would be the Alpine Confederation, the ex-Yugoslavian states, the Hellenic Republic, the countries of North Africa, Israel and Turkey.

Foreign relations Not recognized by the international community until 2010 Italy would maintain radio signals with Malta, Tunisia, Libya and other Italian survivor states like Sardinia, after the reunification Italy would conduct two individuals operations in the Mediterranean Sea in 1991 for report how badly were affected the countries in Southern Europe and North Africa, as well as Asia.


Always in 1991 relations will be reestablished between Australia and Portugal during the expedition of the USS Benjamin Franklin and the submarine Albacora, both crews would stay in Palermo for a week until returning to their voyage, providing the Italian government with useful information about the status of the world and what did it happen in other nations, the Italian Navy will send two corvettes with the two submarines up until the Suez Canal, where the Albacora and the USS B. Franklin would split up.


After 2002 the relationship with Europe would change drastically, especially with the countries that are in the Mediterranean area, this didn't mean that Italy will be isolated from everyone like it is North Korea today, simply it will still maintain good relationships with other countries like Argentina, Australia, Mexico, Canada, USSR, Turkey, Israel, Scotland, Denmark, Colombia, Japan and so on.

Swift to authoritarianism Present since 1983 as it seems in the article. From 1985 to 2002 the provisional republic and after the establishment of the Italian Republic the state can be described as a dominant-party system democracy, like it was in Italy from 1946 to 1983 with the domination of the Christian Democracy in every aspect of the government.


From 2002 up until 2011 the Italian nationalist politician Paolo De Stefano would win the general elections after a series of attacks on Sicilians and an aggressive propaganda campaign to give to Italy his right place in the world and also to make Italy great again from the ashes of the war, he would gradually dismantle the democratic system that existed before gradually becoming an authoritarian dictatorship with inspiration from Mussolini's Italy and Pinochet's Chile in 2004/05, with time he would outlaw trade unions, various freedoms given by the constitution, banning every party that was against the current form of the state and the institution of a secret police and the set up of various penal colonies in remote islands for political dissidents and Libyan rebels, alongside common criminals and bandits.

I will also provide you of some informative links that can be useful for understanding cold war Italy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Italian_Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mafia_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_%27Ndrangheta_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piersanti_Mattarella

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corleonesi_Mafia_clan

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Economy#ref318073

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/The-economic-miracle#ref319102

Alex, Mal3ssio97 02:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest the following to allow for a more realistic Italian state to exist, but preserving existing canon:

  • Immediately post-Doomsday, the regional government of Sicily takes control of the island with support from surviving assets of the Italian Armed Forces and US forces stationed at Naval Air Station Sigonella, Comiso Air Station, and the Mechanized Brigade Aosta outside of Messina.
  • The Mafia begins to gain power in smaller communities as the government and military are focused on assisting refugees and securing fuel, ammunition, and food supplies as well as sending expeditions to the mainland for the same purpose.
  • Throughout the rest of the 1980’s, the Mafia slowly consumes all other organized crime on the island, drop the requirement that members cannot be related or involved with a person who is in the justice system, and grows in power in the smaller communities to the point it begins to take over the local governments and judiciaries.
  • Meanwhile, the government manages to convince Sardinia, Tunisia, and survivors on mainland Italy to join as a means of survival, and for future referendums to decide their status as provinces of Italy or independent nations.
  • It begins to buy up farms, businesses, hospitals, etc. seizing control of many necessities to survive and the organization begins to infiltrate the military. *There are attempts to prosecute them, but by this point it is beginning to become difficult due to the sheer amount of people who are involved and the number of corrupt judges, police officers, and government officials.
  • In the early 1990’s members of the Mafia openly participate in the election (not as members of the Mafia) and win the majority of votes, while some journalists and military officials are skeptical and believe there was bribery and intimidation (there was), they quickly withdraw their statements or disappear.
  • The Mafia government suspends elections on the cause of the ‘national emergency’ caused by Doomsday and arrests the remaining members of parliament not corrupted or members of the Mafia, ironically on trumped up corruption charges.
  • Surviving US troops and expats are expelled after their equipment and weapons are seized by the military. Most make their way to Greece or Malta.
  • The new government basically functions somewhat the same as the government they overthrew, however much more corrupt.
  • To distract people from the corruption, the government begins to pirate cargo ships passing through the central Mediterranean. When Greek, Spanish, and other governments protest and begin to defend their cargo ships with force, the Sicilian government manipulates the population into thinking they are being attacked.
  • This causes the First Sicily War, which is more of a Cold War where Sicily is raiding commercial shipping and small communities on the coasts of Greece, Spain, France, and Africa. These nations are retaliating by sinking Sicilian ships and detaining sailors.
  • The war continues up until the Second Sicily War as it is essentially a frozen conflict.
  • The Sicilian Government, with more discontent toward the lack of elections and public opinion beginning to swing that the national emergency can be suspended, invades Greece claiming that the pirates are operating from the Greek Islands. This triggers the Second Sicily War.
  • The war occurs as in existing canon.
  • Before the war breaks out, the ADC viewed Sicily as more of a nuisance than a threat and didn’t anticipate an invasion.
  • Post-war, the Atlantic Defense Community and Italian Peninsula Alliance make efforts to inform the citizens of Sicily of the government’s lies. This causes some minor protests which are quickly put down by law enforcement and the mafia.
  • However, this quickly snowballs from transparency protests to pro-democracy protests. The military violently puts down the protests.
  • The Sicilian Government demands the ADC stop interfering, however it denies culpability.
  • In 2013 a bomb takes out the leader of the protests and everyone points fingers at the mafia run government who claims that the person was making homemade explosives and died in an accident.
  • The CANZ and ADC demand an independent investigation (which doesn’t occur).
  • People’s anger, while for decades pacified by stable food and fuel supplies as well as security, rise up and take to the streets, demanding free elections.
  • The government agains violently puts them down, however this time the protesters get a portion of the military to support them, and both the ADC and IPA are covertly supplying weapons and hardware via submarine and air drop to the protestors.
  • After major fighting on the island, the Sicilian government is overthrown in 2014 and a new interim government with support of the IPA and ADC is formed.
  • The interim government holds elections the following year, in 2015 with the recently reformed Christian Democracy Party defeating the Democratic Party of the Left.
  • Immediately, the new government works with Greece to make amends, providing material and laborers to help rebuild the islands invaded by the mafia-run Sicily. It also supports an independent Tunisia and Sardinia however openly states it hopes for a future democratically run, unified Italy. However it’s neighbors are wary for good reason, but still with support from the CANZ and ADC agree to enter into talks. Both the CANZ and ADC believe by unifying into one nation, the moderates can help prevent a similar situation in the future. The ADC is hoping a reformed Italy would join the organization, strengthening it further. However, the Greeks are extremely reluctant given the recent behavior of the nation and major damage it took during the war.
  • Talks wrap up in 2021 for Sicily and it’s neighbors to work in tandem to repair infrastructure between the nations and a set goal to reunify Italy by 2040.
  • Additionally, Sicily agrees to join the ADC, albeit the Greeks are hesitant, adding another powerful member to the alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

First of all i want to thank you Daesunglim for the critics and the review that you brought up, i already read them and many of them are well thinked and makes a lot of sense, however i have to dismiss some of your points, because they neglected the pre war history of the mafia, Sicily and what did happen in Sicily before the war, i will give you a summorize becuase those things would not happen.

  1. First thing off is the Mafia, you have to understand that between 1981 and 1984 there was a war inside Cosa Nostra, between the clans of Palermo and other cities and the Clan of the Corleonesi, this war was started by Riina, the boss of the Corleonesi because he wanted power and be the absolute ruler of Cosa Nostra, by 1983 only a few clans of Palermo remain alive, there will be this clans that would seek help from the regional government, and those clans are wealthy, unlike the Corleonesi, the main difference is that those clans were pragamatic and wealthy, meanwhile the Corleonesi were rutheless and violent, but poor. So just because a global war happen dosen't mean that Riina don't want to finish the job, no, now he is more incitated to finish the job and maybe also hit the regional government and be the absolute ruler of the island. Plus you have to consider the Stidda, clans that are indipendent from Cosa Nostra and that are located in Eastern Sicily (Messina, Catania, Ragusa, Siracusa and etc.) So here the clans of Palermo will seek out the protection of the regional government in order to stay alive, using the newly anti mafia laws of the same year the government will register any boss of this clans as a "Pentito", meaning a person who has reget their mafia oath and so in this case they have the legal requirements for give them freedom and liberty, in return the clans will help the government in the fist stages of the post war and also give any information that they have about the mafia, and in particular against Riina.
  1. The regional govenment would never expel the Americans or any NATO personeel from Sicily, because they are valuable assets with much needed military and speclialist skills, for example engieneers, technicians and so on, not to mentioning the man pool and the expirience that they have, so after a year, and realizing that the US is gone the forces of NATO and the US sign a document with the regional government agreeing to the transfer of their old country's equipment and ordinances to the provisional government and in return asking for citizenship and also to live in Sicily.
  1. I like your idea about the cargo ships, is a thing that the Italian government did implement before the war, it was called "Strategia della Tensione", i provided a link for it above this post so you can see what i was taking about, but i think they will also use raid attack on the border or even hiring bandits for doing this or ex terrorists.
  1. After the war in 2010 there was an earthquake in the northeast part of the country, it destroyed many towns and cities and it killed over 300 people and cut off that region for sometime, here the CANZ and the SAC, alongside the LoN could use humanitarian aids as a bargening chip, they will help Italy in rebuild in exchange for the end of the dictatorship, Di Stefano refuse this deal and this caused massive protest by the people, especially in that area and also the political opposition and the military would agree that enough is enough and they will ousted him, there will be a brief period of combined military government and civilian before announcing new democratic elections.
  1. Also about the ADC i disagree too, i very much doubt that Italians, even those who are democratic and antifascist would be willing to join an organization that just some years ago did attack Italy and bomb our cities, anti ADC sentiment will remain for quite some time. In my opinion the new foreign attitude of the republic will be that of armed neutrality, the maintaing of a strong armed force in order to counter any foreign attack, but it will be active in LoN decisions and peacekeeping operations, becoming a large manpool for the LoN in Europe. The whole situation will be similar to Serbia regarding NATO.

Mal3ssio97 23:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it's finally close to ready. Framing the events of the 2000s as the actions of a single dictatorship within the Sicily-based polity is a good way to both preserve canon and create a less caricatured society. And it nicely transitions from that era to your plan to transform the state into a plausible restoration of the Italian republic.

The final step of all this will have to be updating both of the Sicily Wars. Ideally nothing will have to change in the articles for related countries in those wars (countries as far away as Canada); so maybe only some reinterpretation in light of what's known about Sicily - making them something less of an obnoxious villain. I'd like to incorporate as many of Daesung's objections as possible, and those wars will be the place to make sure that it happens.

I know that this will transition toward working on recent history for the rest of Italy. I ask that you please not wank South Italy in that process. The northern states will not switch to trusting the south immediately, after all those years of bad relations. The peninsula will probably remain divided for a long time. False Dmitri (talk) 18:27, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Gettysburg

Does anyone object to me increasing the population of Gettysburg? Right now, canon has the population at around 102,000 people. However, I expanded the borders as page was last updated in 2011 and I believe it is fair to assume in 10 year it would expand. Additionally, natural barriers are better borders than arbitrary lines splitting an area, especially while trying to organize a government.

I expanded the borders to the Susquehanna River in the east (original canon was halfway through York County which is fairly flat and indefensible), in the north to the State College border, and in the west to the edge of Franklin County, as there are some pretty substantial mountains and tributaries to the Potomac that would serve as a decent natural barrier.

The 1980 population of the area it encompasses was almost 775,000 people. While I know Baltimore and Harrisburg were destroyed, the radiation would have missed much of the territory it encompasses (I did subtract the population of the communities across the river from Harrisburg as they would be destroyed in the blast or irradiated). Additionally, there would likely be survivors (albeit limited) from the Baltimore metro area. I estimated that a 2020 realistic population would be 257,000 people, assuming a negative compound of 30% from the chaos and radiation immediately after doomsday (542,500) , 30% from radiation poisoning (379,750), and 40% from starvation, disease, etc, leaving 227,850 people immediately after Doomsday.

I have also updated the largest city to York from Gettysburg. In the region it encompasses, Gettysburg is like the 10th or 11th largest town at around 7,000 people. York has around 45,000 people, and Gettysburg is fairly isolated. Even Chambersburg, Carslile, and Westminster have larger populations than Gettysburg in OTL, though I did beef up the population of Gettysburg due to it being the capital.

I want to avoid changing canon too much, however one issue is that Gettysburg’s government is modeled off the US government and yet it is aligned with Virginia, a somewhat fascist military state. To rectify this, I have created a third party in Gettysburg called the Veteran Party, which is growing in popularity and calls for a similar style government to Virginia. It also is calling for Gettysburg to expand further east and west in a Manifest Destiny esque belief. This area is pretty far right in OTL, so I have this party rapidly growing and the ideas becoming more mainstream.

I am also creating a military page for the nation. My plan is for it to have around 15,000 soldiers with around 13,500 in the Army and 1,500 in the Air Force. The only body of water it touches is the Susquehanna, so I plan on treating any water patrol forces like I did with the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, in a riverine squadron.

From what I have found there are not many military assets in the region, again, similar to Susquehanna. Due to this, I will have much of its equipment coming from Virginia. However, in York there is a large Harley plant that I plan on stating it is restored with help from Virginia, albeit at a much smaller scale, and it manufactures motorcycles for military and civilian usage.

As far as foreign relations go, I plan that the government does not recognize State College or Reading as successor states to Pennsylvania and rejects their authority. However, it will have relations with all PA survivor states as well as Delmarva, the UC nations, and the Dixie Alliance nations. It will be in a political conflict with Delmarva over northern Maryland territorial control. If the group agrees, Gettysburg may also get into conflict with State College over the western border and Reading (and Susquehanna by proxy) over Dauphin Lancaster, and Lebanon counties.

I think Virginia needs to have its borders updated to encompass part of SW Pennsylvania and Gettysburg would support this, however this would draw it into conflict with North Pennsylvania and State College, both of whom claim that region.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

For me, these changes are more than fair in light of your development of the whole region. The expansion of Virginia's borders, could that be done as recent history (since 2011 or so) rather than a review that would have to change canon? Otherwise I think that this can be closed. False Dmitri (talk) 18:41, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Libya

I was going to wait until Egypt was all squared away before posting this, but work on Libya is now in full swing, so it should be discussed. This is the final step of the review of Greece, which had been overpowered with colonies covering Lower Egypt and most of Libya. Removing those colonies means that we need other states there. This component of the review affects two existing pages and needs one new one:

  • Libya - The history immediately following 1983 won't change much at all and in fact serves as the starting point for the other pages. But references to Greek colonization still need to be removed. I haven't really started anything here.
  • Cyrenaica - formerly this was the page for the Greek colony covering most of Libya (not just Cyrenaica itself). Now I'm planning to have the region emerge from the Libyan Civil War asa kingdom; the crown prince was in Tripoli in 1983 and would be well placed to return to power here. In order to avoid changing too much in the Second Sicily War, we'll have to posit close economic ties to Greece, including some sort of defensive agreement. Most likely this means Greek investment in oil, which Cyrenaica has a lot of. The rewrite is maybe half done, and the war page will then need to be brought in line with it - mostly minor changes.
  • Tripolitania - A new page, marked as a proposal. This region did very, very badly in the civil war. It then falls victim to Sicilian expansionism - the republic saw it as an opportunity to resettle refugees. After the war, it becomes a shaky independent republic where those refugees coexist precariously with the Arab majority. The initial writing here is basically done.

Please comment and suggest changes here. It will be nice to have finished the "new Greece". False Dmitri (talk) 14:22, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Tunisia

One other issue that need to be solved and rewritten is Tunisia, as it stands right now it conflicts with the newly history of the region and shows a little bias, mainly those about making the Tunisian royal family important all of a sudden and the Sicilian invasion, too much brutal and in my opinion unnecessary. Imp was going to take care of Tunisia and transforming it into an allied of the Italian Republic just for their own benefit, and get rid of the monarchy. Mal3ssio97 (talk) 00:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Basically, to expand on what Mal has written, the path Tunisia follows is one that is problematic. So from the new climate model post-DD that we are now working from allows for Tunisia to see an average doubling of rainfall for the next 4-5 years post-dd. This should have allowed for strong crop yields easily feeding the people of the nation. On top of this, Tunisia was uniquely suited as being small enough to avoid food problems but large enough to have a somewhat solid domestic industry as well as the ability to beef up its army to defend borders for what would be both Libya and Algeria collapsing into chaos.

In the current plan, Tunisia should be able to punch south into Libya and capture the few oil fields in the west of the nation - completely bypassing the chaos that unfolds in Tripolitania, with the caucus belli being that they are invited by Gaddafi to help stabilise his regime. They take one look at the chaos, and decide "no thank you" but use the opportunity instead to strike south. This provides them with some oil fields, which they would have to develop on their own and something which will take time. But it is a good "investment" so to speak.

We still need to work out what happens with Algeria as at least one of the states was meant to be a Greek puppet so that too will eventually have to be put for review. Now the question will be whether Tunisia will take any Algerian land as with the Algerian state exploding into chaos, the Hassi Massaoud and Hassi R'Mel oil fields would be very very tempting targets. On the other hand, Tunisia may instead just look to arm the group most likely to win and claim concessions on the oil from those fields.

This also ties into the article where it states Tunisia was not able to maintain its equipment. This is another problematic point as Tunisian industry, although small, does have technical proficiency and would have managed to open a couple armament factories specialising in bullets and munitions before eventually expanding into parts and wholesale small armaments. This is reflected in the reforms they undertook to produce and export mechanical and electromechanical equipment. They also have a decent amount of phosphate, something which would likely become very precious quickly too.

This ties into the whole Sicilian war. It is much more likely that Tunisia is viewed as an allied authoritarian regime when Sicily expands out into Tripolitania - a region where the Italians had a historic claim and is much weaker than Tunisia instead of being a target for Sicilian expansion - something which would likely lead to disaster when fighting with a Tunisia which has had to increase their force size when compared to OTL just to survive the chaos around them.

All in all, although Tunisia will struggle, it would likely be one of the nations that would eventually prosper and become a regional powerhouse. I fully expect it to be one of the rare states that has a population larger than OTL. As for it joining the ADC, this would be pretty straightforwardly accomplished with a change in govt which prompts them to switch sides and essentially "pull an Italy on Italy". Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 05:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

This review will have to happen in conjunction with Sicily and Second Sicily War. False Dmitri (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, the other reviews and proposals relating to Greece will need to be finished off first. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

United States Largest City

There seems to be a matter of disagreement over the largest city in the United States (country). The original canon from when the timeline was structured circa 2009-2011 listed Fort Collins, Colorado as the largest city. However most of the US states have one (or two for Dakota) cities that were fairly sizable in Doomsday and may have grown since then. I have a list below of cities that could be the largest, their 1980 population, and a reasonable explanation for them being the largest city.

(Please note, I know not all these cities are listed as the largest in their state, but I am simply putting them down as pre-Doomsday they were large cities in their regions)

  • Colorado
    • Fort Collins: 65,092 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Denver and the surrounding metropolitan area. Also, somewhat central for the United States so it could end up being a hub by 2020 for east/west trade.
  • Dakota
    • Fargo: 61,383 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Minnesota and later from what would become Lakotah
    • Sioux Falls: 81,182 (1980)
      • Similar possible growth reason as for Fargo.
  • Kootenai
    • Missoula: 33,338 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Helena and surrounding communities as well as smaller towns near nuclear missile silos and later refugees fleeing the racist regime in what would become Lincoln
  • Lincoln
    • Coeur d’Aline: 19,913 (1980)
      • The city saw the racist regime take control of the area post Doomsday and from reading the Lincoln page it seems the population was concentrated in the cities. I am not sure about refugees from Boise, but some may have ended up in the city. In OTL, the city grew rapidly that in 2020 it has a population of around 53,000 people. Obvious OTL rules and conditions don’t apply, so I know we cannot hold this to be true, but it is just a thought.
    • Spokane: 171,300 (1980)
      • Similar reason as above for Coeur d’Aline, however I would argue that Spokane should be the largest city in Lincoln, but I understand the fighting in the city likely drove a large portion of the survivors out of the city and destroyed infrastructure. Also, proximity to, and trade from Victoria could spur growth.
  • Montana
    • Billings: 66,798 (1980)
      • It is the closest city to Provisional Canada and would likely be a major trade hub for the two countries. Also being the capital city of the North American Union would spur economic growth and urban development as both political and business leaders would set up shop in the city.
  • Oregon
    • Newport: 7,519 (1980)
      • Being totally objective, this is absolutely a stretch. While similarly to Salem, it likely absorbed refugees from Portland, a town of this size even doubling immediately post Doomsday isn’t anywhere close to other cities. The only reason I mention it is because the city is a major (only?) port in the United States. This would definitely spur major development in the region and could increase the population exponentially. At a bare minimum I would argue the city is plausibly the second largest in Oregon.
    • Salem: 89,223 (1980)
      • It is the largest city in Oregon to survive Doomsday, would have absorbed refugees from Portland, and likely any people who wanted to leave Astoria.
  • Wyoming
    • Casper: 51,016 (1980)
      • Being that Wyoming does not have many large cities, Casper was the largest city in the state on Doomsday (Cheyenne only had 47,283 people in 1980). The destruction of Cheyenne and missile silos in the state would have driven survivors towards the next largest surviving city.
    • Torrington: 5,441 (1980)
      • As the capital of the United States it would have seen growth. But I don’t know if it is realistic to have grown that substantially even in ~40 years. However I could very well be wrong and if I am, I take this back.

Based on pre-Doomsday, the cities largest to smallest are: Spokane, Salem, Sioux Falls, Fort Collins, Billings, Fargo, Casper, Missoula, Coeur d’Aline, Newport, Torrington.

I do think that Scottsbluff, NE and Dodge City, KS will fall on this list, but I don’t think either would be a contender for the largest city.

I do believe Spokane will have been depopulated heavily from the fighting, Newport and Torrington I feel are too small to have grown that substantially in less than four decades to grow larger than cities like Salem or Billings.

This is my personal opinion (and please comment your opinions)

  1. Billings (~150,000)
  2. Salem (~140,000)
  3. Fort Collins (~135,000)
  4. Sioux Falls (~75,000)
  5. Fargo (~60,000)
  6. Casper (~50,000)
  7. Dodge City (~45,000)*
  8. Missoula (~40,000)
  9. Torrington (~40,000)
  10. Scottsbluff (~30,000)*
  11. Newport (~20,000)
  12. Coeur d’Aline (~20,000)
  13. Spokane (~15,000)

Possibly by 2030, Salem will overtake Billings as the largest city as trade with the APAC region increases and the port in Newport expands. I think Billings in its position as the capital of the NAU and a larger pre-Doomsday population are the main impetus for growth.

(Astris denotes cities I don’t think are likely to be the largest cities)

What are the group thoughts on this?

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Roadmap for Italy (Sicily)

Hi and goodmorning, i'm Alex, under the suggestion of Ben i decided to create a roadmap in order to show and let everyone understand how i want to change Italy in a realistic way, i also would ask if you leave me the permission of modify the history of Italy in the limits of canon in order to give it a realistic look and also to change some things that really don't make any sense; Like how the interwar period is presented or even how the war was conducted and why it is so short.

==== See the history of Italy here: ==== History of Sicily (1983: Doomsday)

If you have any demands i would be glad to do a Q&A session in order to answer those who are concerned about the canon and lore of the timeline.

Alessio (talk) 13/10/2021 10:45 UTC+1

Vietnam

1234chernobyl began a review for Vietnam but put it in the Adoptions section. So I'm listing it here for discussion. False Dmitri (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Air Forces

Something I have been considering is Air Forces in North America by survivor states. Obviously nations that would have had aircraft within their borders and major infrastructure survive as well as contact with other nations, such as Mexico, Canada, Victoria, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas, possibly the United States, and possibly Provisional Canada could have fairly substantial air forces comparatively given its involvement in the ADC and trade with the Nordic Union and Celtic Alliance. Mexico and Victoria would have a domestic industry that they could heavily rely on as well as trade with South America and Oceania respectively. Alaska and Hawaii were in somewhat decent contact with Australia and New Zealand immediately after DD and are both protectorates of the CANZ, so they likely would be well equip (especially given Alaska’s bordering of Siberian held Alaska), Texas was in contact with Mexico and they both seem to be on friendly terms, and the USA/Provisional Canada likely had enough surviving industry and oil fields they could keep some aircraft operational, though time would absolutely take its toll and replacing aircraft would become increasingly difficult until trade with Canada, Mexico, and Oceania increased.

Nations like Vermont, Deseret, Florida, and possibly some of the countries located around Lake Ontario could keep small air forces through trade with friendly nations (namely Canada, the NAU, and SAC) as well.

But the more I think about it, I feel that most survivor states in North America couldn’t support an Air Force of any meaningful size or capabilities or at a minimum would be utilizing almost exclusively piston driven aircraft. Nations like Superior, Kentucky, and Virginia all seem to operate jet fighters and turbo propeller driven bombers and transports from their pages and I wonder if this would actually be unlikely.

The nation I worked on, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, I have been debating if I should get rid of the Air Force all together because I’m not sure if it could actually support aircraft given its relative isolation and lack of fuel.

Converting planes to LNG, biofuels, etc. is extremely difficult and time consuming and in OTL, the technology has been slow and difficult to adapt. Heavily damaged nations that likely are economically on par with Eastern Europe or parts of Africa equivalently in OTL would absolutely struggle with accessing the technology required to make these adjustments.

Military aircraft are notoriously parts and time intensive and large scale air combat is much less likely in the former USA, especially given the Balkanization and that there are other superpowers. The only major war I can think of that involved significant air power in North America was the Saegunay War. Even Virginian and Kentucky attacks on gangs that used air strikes could have easily been performed by artillery.

I am not saying these nations shouldn’t have air forces, I’m just wondering if there isn’t too much leeway being given, especially considering the severe damage to information and infrastructure the US mainland sustained.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: I got rid of Susquehanna’s Air Force. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was unlikely given its location in rural Pennsylvania far from nations that would produce enough parts to maintain them. Ground vehicles are a lot easier to maintain, so I left those and increased the number of cargo trucks and added an air defense company (radar and surface to air missile launchers) to the Army National Guard (I do think that is plausible).

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

You know this issue need to be bring over to Europe as well some nations would not have the capability or the resources in order to maintain a air force, even a minimal one and with reverse engineer equipment, nations like Rhineland Confederation, Waldick, San Marino, Sapmi, Lancaster and others in my opinion can't for various reasons maintain an effective air force or even one in a good shape.

Only nations like Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Prussia, Italy, Spain, Romania, Bulgaria Greece and Portugal have the capabilites, the infrastructures and the resources in order to have a good air force and mind you, not equipped with the latest aircraft vehicles, but with much more old equipment or even salvaged from other countries like MiG jets being used by Italy and Prussia. European air forces except for 4 or 5 will look very similar to any otl African or Asian airforce that isn’t in a good shape. Alex (talk) 21:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS

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Adoption on the Republic of Castille and León

Good evening. I´m CentraleuropeDD, and I would like some permission to adopt the page of the República Unida de Castilla y León.

After some research, I had been planning some expansion of the page, adding some extra information about the country, it´s goverment and editing some changes of territory, as a conquest of Burgos, avoid some asturian claims, and giving some pre-doomsday history and contest in the region.

For the history of the region after Doomsday, I propose this: After Doomsday, the JSC of León (under Manuel Cabezas Esteban) should had been restoring communications, and having their HQ on the Palacio de los Guzmanes of León. While the Campoo region, crowded by refugees, should had been created after being seceed from Palencia province. Maybe the first contact of this part was with the Cantabrian autonomous goverment, led during Doomsday by José Antonio Rodríguez, and helping refugees along the

·Talking about the administrative divisions of the confederation, it can be divided on 5 areas: -León Province (where the capital is located) -Bierzo Autonomous Zone, created after an agreement with Galiza (capital: Ponferrada) -Campoo-Tierra de Campos Province, the breadbasket of the region, in most of the former Palencia province -Region of Cantabria, with the capital in Santander, the main harbour of the region, and with a regional assembly called "Asamblea Regional de Cantabria" -Burgos province, rebuilt since 2010

·Military and small changes When the rocket launcher artillery Regiment Number 63, stationed in the garrison (Acuartelamiento Santocildes) of Astorga (and other bases like the Base Conde de Gazola, in Ferral del Bernesga) and the troops from the Academia Básica del Aire in the León military airfield stood in the region instead of leaving, their garrisons decided to serve the Civilian Junta of Leon that in 1985 took again the power in the province. Along the militias, former policemen and civil guards and other recruits, they are the main forces of the army of the Republic. The army is equipped with Star B pistols, CETME Model 58 rifles (from the Guardia Civil depots), some artillery (105/26 Reinosa howitzer, and the Teruel MLR). The Leonese air force haves pre-doosmday planes as the CASA C-212 Aviocar, and a Beechcraft Bonanza from the Villanubla Air Base that joined the leonese forces in 2010 and was repaired.

CentraleuropeDD (talk) 10:46, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


Adopting the Liberian States and Working on West Africa

Hey all so I've been doing some discussions on the state of the survivor states in Liberia and want to take these further up to date with a few more regional tensions and border settlements and such. I am looking to adopt the Federation of Liberia, Republic of Maryland and the Free Port of Monrovia. My general plan for the area is tensions arising from the collapse of the RRL causing a humanitarian crisis which pulls Monrovia and the federation into the Maryland region. Tensions will simmer over claims for the region and also spice up over the former Liberian state of Gbarpolu which will see intervention from both the UN and WAU. By 2020 I want defined borders for both nations, with the region around Maryland being a joint mandate between the LoN, WAU Monrovia and Liberia ready for a referendum on its future. This will ideally be the three state solution in former Liberia. I will also be addressing some graphical things and will explain my reasonings as to my proposals in due course. I'm hoping for this to be a jumping off point for more work in the west African region that will hopefully play a greater part in the geopolitical structures of the world. Trainor90 (talk) 21:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Adoption of Lithuania

Hi! I would like to adopt the page Lithuania (1983: Doomsday) as it is a stub and I would like to expand it. INTLHI (talk) 01:22, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

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