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Contents

GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7 | Page 8

Belgium and her survivor states

I belive a weird flanders-northern france, a state around the unbombed bits of the muese and industrial wallonia and kinda peasant collective around the campines (no one cares enough to bomb them) plus you know luxembourg takes like arlon and maybe like bits of german comunity

So maybe like Republic of Flanders Republic of liege (used to be a thing) or name it united belgian states with it claiming all of belgium but just controlling the state of Liege and well Campines being not realy a state but know by outsiders as campine collective

Vinny Baker of Nate's Cookies Chocolate cookie.png 16:58, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

If you need any adjustments made to Luxembourg, ask. I'm unhappy with a few aspects of that page and need to change some things anyway. False Dmitri (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
I've started to work on an alternate proposal at User:False Dmitri/Benelux. It's going to take some more time before it's ready because I want to do more research into NATO troops stationed in Germany, who are going to be extremely important to this whole story. As you can see, there are some real problems that I've found with the Rhineland Federation too, not just Luxembourg, connected to the huge amount of dangerous radiation along the Rhine itself that are going to seriously hamper some of its member states. False Dmitri (talk) 23:26, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
While I appreciate the interest in making this, and I want to see where projects in the rest of Belgium go (as well as a proposal of mine further up north in Dutch Limburg), I will reiterate my feeling towards this incessant focus on Belgium and Luxembourg uniting, instead of the realisation that NATO troops from all the other neighbouring countries (France and W. Germany), would and could coalesce around Luxembourg, the last surviving NATO state. I'd also criticise this focus on Francophone-ness for this Benelux, when there would be a definitive German element to the country. I think this focus on only Belgian forces is hyperspecific and misses the point of every other country surrounding it. In fact, I could see the government of the Saarland cooperating early on with Luxembourg, the distances aren't that far apart.

Lastly, the Rhenian (Rhinelander but fancy) Federation is much more in the Palatinate than in the Rhineland, especially given the pre-eminent role Kaiserslautern would play in this iteration. Maybe a name change should be considered appropriate.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I've more-or-less taken a pause on this page, and it hasn't left my userspace, because I want it to have more of a solid basis in what was actually happening there on the Western Front, both before and immediately after the missiles came down. The focus on Belgian troops is actually there in the original Luxembourg - but yes it needs to better take into account the military realities of the region, and the same goes for Rhineland. (Rhineland has other problems as well, but nonspecific references to NATO forces is one of them.) False Dmitri (talk) 12:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Confederate States of America (Muscle Shoals) and other pro-US survivor states

So in the timeline, a non-racist CSA existed from late 1985 until around 1999 when it dissolved. As of the mid-2010’s there were talks of reforming the nation (in the TL), but it was decided to defer and wait until the United States entered the region and rejoin the USA.

By 2020, while the United States is reaching closer to where these states existed, there are still fairly substantial territorial gaps to reunification. Based on the position of the US, I could actually see the government in Torrington encouraging nations that are interested in reunification, but geographically isolated (such as the former CSA, Pennsylvania, Neonotia, etc.) to form regional groupings and treat them like associated states. The nations could maintain a high degree of autonomy to handle local situations with their own militaries, elections, economies, and regional affairs; but federal authorities in the US could use these as stepping off points to attempt to reunify as much of the former country as possible, as well as stave off influence from hostile nations such as Superior or Virginia.

Long term goals would be for possible reunification, but I also think Torrington would recognize that just alignment with the United States is preferable to nothing at all.

To sum up, I think the US would actually encourage the former CSA (Muscle Shoals) to reunify as a nation and the two countries work in tandem with long term goals of reunification once territory and communication is up to par to allow for government officials to travel and communicate effectively.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about it really, for me it would be detremental to the United States supporting a revived Confederacy, even if slavery woudn't be brought up i think a massive backlash and suspicious would emerge among the African Americans of that area and also from the other states of the region like Neonotia and North Carolina. In my opinion if anything there yes should be a new unification of the southern states, but under a different name and flag, maybe call it "American Union State", "Southern States of America" or "American Federal Republic". I would suggest Columbus in Georgia or Tallahassee / St. Augustine in Florida, even Athens or Augusta could make for some good capital. Alex (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

That is a valid point and I tend to agree. It doesn’t have to be named the Confederate States, but I could imagine it encompasses the remaining independent states of the dissolved Muscle Shoals CSA (former CSA Kentucky and Tennessee joined the Commonwealth of Kentucky), Neonotia, and Florida with a possibility for Eastern Tennessee, Piedmont, and Blue Ridge joining.

Augusta, GA; Columbus, GA; and Tallahassee, FL were all destroyed on Doomsday. Athen, GA was overrun by raiders and abandoned within a year after Doomsday. Saint Augustine, FL is a city within the Republic of Florida, but it seems to be somewhat isolated from the more populated areas in the Deep South, though long term I could see it being developed into a major port as it is one of the few areas on the east coast with a natural bay, however I don’t think it is positioned effectively to be a capital.

I would suggest either Rome, GA or Muscle Shoals (since it already has the structures from 1985-1999 CSA).

I think long term, there wouldn’t be a huge political barrier, both regions are conservative in OTL and ATL, so politics wouldn’t come into play; it serves the Deep South well in that it gets access (albeit likely a longer time for transit) to the West Coast and Pacific market and the US a stronger foothold on the Atlantic beyond the USAR, and would strengthen the more mining and industrial based western states with agriculture from the southern states who lack major industrial development.

It is just over 600 miles from a major US population center to a major CSA (former) population center [Dodge City, Kansas to Muscle Shoals]. The major issue will be geography as Kentucky controls most of the land between the US and former southern states.

My suggestion would be as follows:

United Southeastern America

  • Capital: Muscle Shoals (~41,853 [2020])
  • Largest City: Cape Coral (95,176 [2020])
  • Population: 3,194,285 (2020)
  • Government Style: Confederation with a high level of autonomy for member states, but all foreign affairs and interstate disputes are handled via the centralized government, in political affiliation with the United States
  • States
    • Alabama: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Alabama
      • Capital/Largest City - Florence
      • Population: 268,845 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL North Alabama region
    • Florida: Existing Republic of Florida
      • Capital - Gainsville
      • Largest City - Cape Coral
      • Population: 1,649,368 (2020)
    • Georgia: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Georgia
      • Capital/Largest City - Rome
      • Population: 524,970 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL Northwest Georgia region
    • Neotonia
      • Capital - Americus
      • Largest City - Valdosta
      • Population: 709,249 (2020)
      • Region: South Georgia, South Alabama
  • Territories/Federal Districts
    • Muscle Shoals (in state of Alabama)
      • Population: 41,853 (2020)

Other territories that could possibly be added:

  • Hot Springs as Arkansas
    • Capital/Largest City - Hot Springs
    • Population: 453,471
  • Blue Ridge Republic as North Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Asheville
    • Population: 433,432 (2020)
  • Piedmont Republic as South Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Greenville
    • Population: 451,637 (2020)
  • East Tennessee as Tennessee
    • Capital - Morristown
    • Largest City - Knoxville
    • Population: 529,557 (2020)
  • United States Atlantic Remnant as Virgin Islands
    • Capital/Largest City - Charlotte Amalie
    • Population: 244,189 (2020)

But I think these nations are unlikely, the first four seem to have gone their own way, and the USAR seems to prefer the existing arrangement. Not to mention the US Navy has gain a significance number of assets, including a carrier strike group.

Daeseunglim (talk) 07:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

So here's my proposal, this is the map of the Southern United States if united into one country, it incorporate the states of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. The red dots represents potential capitals and the yellow areas are restricted zones due to the radiations.

Alex (talk) 01:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

This is my proposed detailed map:

1983DD Proposed Southern Nation.png

The states would be:

  • Alabama (Light Green)
    • Capital- Florence
  • Apalechee (Yellow)
    • Capital- Destin
  • Cahaba (Dark Green)
    • Capital- Auburn
  • Florida (Red)
    • Capital- Gainesville
  • Georgia (Purple)
    • Capital- Rome
  • Mississippi (Maroon)
    • Capital- Corinth
  • Neonotia (Blue)
    • Capital- Americus

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I like it, but in my opinion a reconstructed CSA should also took the consideration of reconquering the bay of mobile and also expanding to ecorporate all southern Mississipi river. Alex (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I think Mobile Bay would depend on how much residual radiation is left from the strike on Mobile. Plutonium and strontium might still be present in large enough quantities to cause genetic defects and radiation poisoning over time.

As far as towards lower Mississippi, I think that’s possible, maybe if Hattiesburg joins, given it seems to have a pro-USA leanings.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

CSA-1983DD.png

An other thing we should consider are highways, as this would be the main arteries and roads that the CSA or any Southern State would use in order to trade and remain connect with the rest of the US. So here's my idea of map. Alex (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Here's my idea, like i said highways and interstates would be a important thing for any regional nation.

Does someone want to take off with this idea? What does the rest of the group think? Or is the south too fragmented at this point to efficiently reorganize without having another collapse in the near future? I personally don't have time to construct this as I am still focused on Pennsylvania, but I think this is an interesting geopolitical development that would have significant repercussions, especially if the new union affiliated or confederated with the United States in Torrington.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I am willing to take up your idea but I feel i should the owners of the nations that make up the southern states for permison firstGoldwind1 (talk) 23:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Daeseunglim It's been a week since I ask variouu about adopting there pages show I can make an article about the south multinatinal orgazation and no one complained so I go for it. But before I start I want you to help chose a name for the orgazation. I got several ideas. 1 Southern commonwealth.2 Provinasal Dixie coaltion. 3 Gulf Coast League 4 Vaiours combinations of the previous suggestions. PS I hopeGoldwind1 (talk) 15:54, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it should avoid any association with racist imagery as, while the ATL USA and southern states are absolutely more conservative than in OTL, I think some of the nationalist rhetoric we see in current American politics would not be as prominent either. Dixie, the CSA, etc. would all likely be avoided (even though I initially mentioned using the name the CSA, I agree with the others regarding its historical usage).

Maybe it should take the name of the country in southern Georgia and Alabama, Neonotia?Daeseunglim (talk) 20:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


I agree that neotia would be great for the orgazation but I am not sure if the moderaters would let me use bercause the name is already in use for aforementioned state in georgia and alamabma. I may be covince to the moderaters to let me use the neotian name for orgazation if the orgazation is based in neothia and if neothia changed it name. Alternatly I could with novum meridianum. Neoithia is greek for new south and novum Meridiaum is latin new south Goldwind1 (talk) 23:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Would it possibly be more plausible for the country to take a name from a major geographical feature? I think this might be slightly more realistic than Greek or Latin.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)


Daeseunglim I have already a draff of  the page for the organization of southern states ment to severe as a caretaker I have already made a draff of the page for the organization of southern states meant to serve as a caretaker government until union with Torrington  is possible. So far, I have just made a section for history and international relations plus a list of member states and headings for future sections. I feel that I have plausible origin story for the commonwealth It even explains why the caretaker government took the name of one of it’s members. Neothio was the leader of movement to form the caretaker government and it splits itself into different states before joining the caretaker government. I posted my draft below because I want to hear oppion about how plausible it is before I post it in it’s own article.  


Provisional Neonotia  Commonwealth

History

During the 2016 Neonotiain election the proposition to unite with the Rome based Republic of Georgia was a major issue.  Republican Mark Harrell supported the reunion stating it was necessary to rebuild the glory of the United States.  While Democratic James Butler was a supporter of rebulbing the union he didn’t think merging Neonotia  and Georgia Rome was necessary to achieve that goal.  He was afraid that that  merging with the conservative Rome based government would undo all the liberal social progress that Neonotia. had made.  So he felt that if Rome and Neonotia ever rejoined the Union they should rejoin as sperate states . However, he supported the idea of the southern American staes starting a caretaker government until union with Torrington was feasible. After becoming Governor, James Butler start promoting his idea of a caretaker government.  The idea had only modest support at first.  However, in March 2018 a group of white supremacists supported by Toccoa, attempted coups in Rome, Florence, Hattiesburg, Corinth, Tuscaloosa and Neonotia.  The coups succeed in Rome, Florence and Corinth, but failed  in Tuscaloosa, Hattiesburg and Neonotia.  Neonotia, Hattiesburg and Tuscaloosa formed a coalition to liberate Rome, Florence and Corinth.  The coalition was soon joined by the Republic of Florida and the Caribbean Federation.  The coalition managed to successful defeat Toccoa, and their  puppet regimes by September 2018. The war led to increased desire to unite the region. Unity talks were held in Americus in February 2019.  Initially the plan was to name the new caretaker government the Gulf Coast Commonwealth.  But someone object to that name because not all the members had coastlines.  Consequently, the name Southern Commonwealth came into favor for a while. During the talks someone suggested carving up Neonotia into two new states. After this was suggested the two new states were called Cahbah and Carter and Neonotia became the name for the new caretaker government .  The talks were a success and a new constitution was drawn up.

Members

Carter(Formerly the eastern part of the state of Neonotia. Can you think of a better name )

Capital Americus)

Largest City Valdosta


Cahaba (Formerly the western part of Neonotia )

Capital and Largest City Dothan,


Alabama

Capital Tuscaloosa

Largest city Florence

Mississippi

Capital Corinth

Largest city Hattiesburg


North Florida

Capital and  Largest City Gainesville

South Florida

Capital  Naples

Largest City Cape Coral

East Florida

Daytona Beach

West Florida

Capital Apalachicola

Largest City

Port St. Joe


Foreign Relations


The Neonotia commonwealth was founded as a caretaker government until reunion with the United States government becomes feasible.  So they are on good terms with the Torrington government.  Relations with Virginia are complicated. Most rightwing citizens of Neonotia respect Virginia conservatism and believe they have a right to maintain their independence but they don’t like Virginia militant authoritarianism.  Most left wings citizens of Neonotia find    Virginia to be one step above racist maniacs who used to control Toccoa. Relations with Kentucky are strong especially since Kentucky has recently started supporting Torrington.  Neonotia is closely allied with the Caribbean federation because of the aid they gave them in the Toccoa War

Eccomny

Poltics

National symbol

Cluture

I do think there might be a tendency for reunification in some parts of the South, yes, but the USA as of now has very little real influence within the lands east of the Mississippi. Their influence is likely to be lesser than that of Mexico and other nations trading there. Overall, the USA would probably focus less on east of the Mississippi and more their immediate neighbourhood, like Utah, Washington State, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon and California, as well as Minnesota, Oklahoma and Missouri. That is my take. That being said, I don't imagine Florida really joining in on that, it's quite self-sufficient and iirc wasn't even part of the Muscle Shoals group. I could see a revived Southern unified state from the survivors in Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia. But as far as the new USA is concerned, those areas are too far away for them to really be concerned with what the USA would want from them. Not necessarily simply in a distance, but also politically distant.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

World War III

While Doomsday was a fairly unplanned event, it still likely occurred over several hours around the world. I think we are ignoring that there would likely be major naval battles in the Atlantic and Pacific between the NATO and Warsaw Pact navies. Also, I think that there would be more ground combat in Austria, Finland, Germany, the Middle East, and in the Balkans.

We should maybe elaborate on the WWIII and look into conventional warfare.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Did this grow out of our earlier discussion re Alaska? Yes, the actual war is a hugely neglected area. A few months back Kuupik began a page called exactly that, World War III (1983: Doomsday). As you can see, he withdrew his ideas and so far nobody has picked up the slack. He's been around again on Discord, but I can't speak for him or his plans for the proposal. But sorting this out would be very good for the timeline and would put it on more solid footing. False Dmitri (talk) 15:25, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it did! I dug around a bit and even with the targeted cities and military installation there were still tens of thousands of combat personnel in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas that likely would have engaged in ground warfare.

I think the Prussia article as it stands is far too optimistic of the willingness of NATO and Warsaw Pact soldiers to cooperate. Especially given they are mostly foreigners in Germany and the premise is that they all somehow unify around a German prince, Christian-Sigismund (also, the person's page on the wiki reads more like propaganda than an article in my opinion as it mentions about the glory of the German Empire and Prussia before WWII), who the Soviet Union imprisoned (I have found their name, but extremely little information on whether or not they were actually imprisoned by the Soviet Union and if they were detained on September 25th, 1983. The name I found indicates the man married in 1984 but that is all).

Personally, I think Berlin would have been leveled by heavy urban combat between surviving NATO and Warsaw Pact military units. I think we would see conventional warfare in Finland, Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India, possibly Vietnam, possibly Cuba, and possibly parts of Central America.

Daeseunglim (talk) 20:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Prussia is ... a situation. DeviouslyDeviant has a Plan for Prussia to make it more authentically East German while keeping some of the lore in place, but it's been stalled a long time. The proposal that I linked is more along the lines that you suggested. In general, yes I think it's possible, even likely, that troops from both sides would look around and realize that the war was pointless... but not until well after doing their damage, not soon enough to save West Berlin. Dealing with that, though, would take a lot of patient rewriting and require some ironclad consensus from the group. False Dmitri (talk) 01:01, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
  • My idea: The 2 week long "East-West German Border War" began when American troops fired artillary and conventional missiles over the frontier fearing a Soviet post atomic war invasion of W. Germany. Soon some surviving Luftwaffe\USAF and Air Forces of the National People's Army\Red Air Force aircraft would also soon clash over the border, followed by the few serving troops and armour. A couple of Soviet Sukhoi Su-7 got trough and dropped 2 8U69, 5kT tactical nukes on a add-hock US\West German\UK armored coulomb threatening to push it's way up the devastated Fulda Gap. Both the remaining E. German and Soviet troops and armor entered Fulda Gap and Helmstedt–Marienborn border crossing are destroyed by Several NATO Medium Atomic Demolition Munition 0.5kt\500tn and 15kt and Special Atomic Demolition Munition 10tn and 1kt nukes in strategic locations. West German\US forces would clash with a few Czechoslovakian units across their border to. The rest of the 2 week war was shrouded in mistry, confusion and the fog of war... Tortas' trellis. 00:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

League of Nations authority

Question:

With both the original League of Nations failing to prevent WWII and the United Nations failing to prevent WWIII, and many minor conflicts and proxy wars triggering both, wouldn't the League of Nations have a more powerful enforcement arm than the United Nations?

I would think that, while the ANZC, USSR, and SAC have rivalries, it isn't as much of a violent rivalry and more of a political and economic rivalry, all three nations would realize that another world war could damage the world enough to cause human civilization to completely disintegrate.

I think that the League of Nations would have a permanent multinational peacekeeping force composed of personnel from the Security Council members and a rotating force of various other member states.

I could also see the League looking to pursue the idea of defensive wars only, with the League taking authority for offensive actions to invade or blockade rogue nations that affect the multinational sphere.

To clarify a bit, basically versus how in OTL, a coalition of American, British, French, and other NATO nations invaded Iraq; in the ATL, the League of Nations would deploy.

A simple majority vote of League members would be enough to authorize a deployment.

However, in reality, most nations would continue to operate offensively claiming preemptive defense or the fine line between offense and defense to take action.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Also i would throw in the Western African Union as well, even if the WAU is not powerful or influencial as the other three blocks it would still have a big say and a voice loud enough for not being ignored, and it could act as a middle man or a neutral and seeking peace player, and i could see many European, Asian and African states supporting the WAU or asking them for help. But yeah i agree with your idea. Alex (talk) 01:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Should it be structured similar to the OTL UN Peacekeeping, or should the League of Nations have a permanent contingent of troops? In OTL, the UN Peacekeeping force relies on member states providing personnel, equipment, and facilities for their usage and they are deployed by a vote of the UN Security Council. However this has hampered their involvement on various occasions and has also triggered accusations that the global superpowers have used the force to fight proxy wars.

I think the League of Nations would seek to avoid this comparison and might have a small independent force of 8-10 thousand troops and support personnel with aircraft and armor for rapid intervention. For longer duration or larger missions, member states would have similar obligations to OTL UN. A seperate council from the LoN High Council would be responsible for authorization of deployments and the council would not have any High Council members as a chairman to appease smaller, less powerful nations concerned about LoN overreach.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Tuvalu

A long time back I asked GOPZACK for permission to add to some of the articles that he had created for some of the ANZC associated states. I got to the Maldives and Niue before getting sidetracked. But working on South Africa connects to one plan that I had for Tuvalu, namely to have it be only other ANZC client (with Yukon) to restore the British monarch as head of state. The country also gives us a chance to explore some of the climate stuff that's been discussed recently, since in TTL no less than OTL it is probably being threatened by rising sea levels. False Dmitri (talk) 17:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Seeing as nobody replied, lemme give my two cents. Sounds reasonable, why would they in particular restore the monarchy when others do not though. Is there some kind of monarchical bias in Tuvalu, or?? If so, that's interesting as heck.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  13:07, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I definitely found some pro-British sentiment there. You can see it most obviously in the flag, which is a new flag designed upon independence that nonetheless keeps the Union Jack. Tuvalu's unification comes from the British; before them, each island had been independent. The islands got a royal visit just in 1982. In otl they actually had a referendum on keeping the queen in 2008. She won with 65% of the vote, though with really low turnout, which implies a lack of enthusiasm and could be an argument against doing something like this. I guess the thought was that of all the island nations, Tuvalu was the likeliest place for a restoration to happen, and that seemed like an interesting story. False Dmitri (talk) 19:26, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable then.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  20:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
I will add a referendum, though. In general I think referendums are overused in this timeline but Tuvalu tends to hold a lot of them. False Dmitri (talk) 21:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

United Communities

We should evaluate the long term viability and future of the United Communities. The organization is still regional to the northeastern USA and eastern Canada. I think a few new members may have joined since it was last updated around 2014/2015, likely Blue Ridge, Delmarva, East Tennessee, Hannibal, International Falls, the Northern Townships, the Outer Lands, and the Piedmont Republic would all be members. I also believe it is within the realm of possibility that Assiniboina, Provisional Canada, and the United States have joined by this point as well. I could see Canada shifting to full membership to try and counter Saguenay and Superior and Greenland joining as an honorary member in support of Canada.

Around a quarter of the members are League of Nations members (I counted 5 of the 21 full members and 6 of 22 total members) and another 5 are at various stages of requesting or moving to request League membership (again, this is based off the pages that may not have been updated in nearly a decade). I think all members in the United Communities would be aware of the League by this point as I think it is plausible League of Nations and United Communities officials would meet on a regular basis given the similar role, albeit much different scale the organizations have.

I think there are three ways we can approach this organization going forward, the first is the most likely and the third is the least likely in my opinion:

  1. The League of Nations and United Communities enter into serious negotiations starting in 2024 to merge the United Communities into the League of Nations. The League would gain the structures on Navy Island and utilize it as regional headquarters for further contact deeper into North America and better contact with the nations in the mid-Atlantic and Midwestern United States.
  2. The United Communities expands as radio and global communications improve. It mainly gains membership from North American nations, as well as countries rejected by the League of Nations for being blocked by the High Council, including most states that the USSR claims in Eastern Europe as well as a handful in Africa and Asia.
  3. The United Communities slowly morphs into a regional political bloc similar to the OTL European Union without a currency union.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Status of the New York Rangers

I am currently working on the Republic of New York (1983: Doomsday) page and I think that the New York Rangers (1983: Doomsday) should be apart of the republic the reason why is that the rangers are not really interested in establishing a permanent government and the rangers were never supposed to be there forever as well as the rangers are very close partners to the republic and so they wouldn’t be against joining the republic I would like to know your thoughts on this.Tj7820 (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Overall I see no issues, but I would like to see a proposal on that, also there is a slight distance that needs to be bridged. Make a proposal for it, and I'll be happy to see how that looks.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:23, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I also agree that the Republic of New York would likely absorb the New York Rangers. The Rangers, to me, didn’t appear to be a formal government but more of a defense alliance of a bunch of towns. Expanding east to the New York Rangers would likely given New York the ability to improve trade with Vermont and Plymouth. For New York it gives it additional territory and a stronger land link to New England. For the New York Rangers it gives a stronger economic basis and will likely help strengthen its control in the territory.

New York borders State College and Susquehanna so it would likely have transportation links to the Great Lakes.

I believe the Republic would focus expansion north towards Oswego and east towards Vermont.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

United Communities and League of Nations Peacekeeping

I think both the United Communities and League of Nations will have a dedicated peacekeeping group, just like the OTL UN. While in OTL there are criticisms of it, there have been notable successes. Likely both organizations would see benefit in having a peacekeeping group.

However, the League of Nations might have an independent core force rather than solely relying on its member states for deployment, with support from members. I think the United Communities would rely solely on member contributions.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I think an independent force should be added to the Specialized LoN agencies page. False Dmitri (talk) 03:05, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Pacific Treaty Organization

I think that the ANZC would seek to form a military alliance with friendly nations in the Pacific Ocean. It would basically function similarly to NATO.

I think member states would be:

  • Alaska
  • Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand
  • Republic of China
  • El Salvador
  • Fiji
  • Republic of the French Southern Territories
  • Hawaii
  • Macau
  • Papua New Guinea
  • United States
  • Commonwealth of Victoria

While I know the ANZC has a military function and so does the Oceanic Organization, I view the former more along the lines of being like the United States and the latter being closer to the EU in organization. While the USA and Victoria are not nearly as powerful as the pre-Doomsday American and Canadian governments respectively, they are definitely regional powers and have power projection capabilities with two carriers and several amphibious assault ships between the two.

Piracy, the CSTO, the PRC, and SAC control on the Panama Canal would likely be security concerns that all these aforementioned nations would be concerned about.

In OTL, these nations or the regions where they occupy, generally speaking have close relationships and I think this would carry over to the ATL.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:39, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm I feel the Oceanic org covers this quite well, especially regarding Papua, Hawaii and Alaska. Fiji has iirc some sort of dispute with the ANZC, so they're out.

RFTA (or as I call it, the Sixth Republic) is officially neutral, and would stay so as to not anger the SAC, as it has needs of accessing its Caribbean territories through the Canal and good relations with the SAC let it have privileged access.

The Chinese nations are a maybe, but hmmmm unsure on these, and both them and El Salvador in an official alliance org with the ANZC would be at least somewhat provocatory to both the USSR and the SAC.

And while I do think the USA is a naval nation, I think atm they have other things in focus, not really matters in the Pacific. Despite sea access, the US is still a very inland country and would focus on internal North American matters imo. Really, only Victoria I feel would be wise to include in this.

Thewolvesden 17:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Re Fiji, in the Oceanic Org page I sort of alluded to an idea that the country had a very isolationist phase going on starting in the mid-2000s. Maybe it was a coup situation, like the one in OTL around that time, maybe something else. I planned to write a proper history (something Fiji lacks), but never did. By now I think that phase is past and Fiji is more open to the rest of the world, including the LoN and maybe even the Oceanic Org and ANZ.
As for another defensive bloc, I actually think it is possible - overlapping alliances are certainly a thing in real life. I'm thinking of NATO and the EU Military Staff as an example. I also agree that France is definitely out. The USA might be interested in something like that, though as Mr Den says it's so land-focused that it's not clear what it could even offer. I'm so un-versed in China that I can't even comment on that. But I think that this could actually work. I'd think though that it would be less tightly bound than NATO, maybe modeled more on the EU military staff; and that it would be seen as secondary to the Oceanic Org, which represents ANZ's most important defensive commitment. False Dmitri (talk) 03:22, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

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United States Influence

I think we need to review Lincoln (nation), Superior and Virginia as all three are vehemently against the US government and act ridiculously (and out of characteristically for Lincoln and Superior) authoritarian when it comes to CRUSA and US supporters. While I agree resentment in many nations will exist and many nations may be unwilling to join the reformed nation, whether for financial (Alaska & Hawaii) reasons, political (Niagara Falls) reasons, geographical (Blue Ridge) reasons, religious (Deseret) reasons, or simply the idea that they are doing fine on their own and don’t need the USA (Texas). However; Lincoln (nation), Superior, and Virginia are almost ASB ridiculous with how anti-American they are.

When the timeline was structured there was a strong debate over how realistic that was, and from what I gather the same individual wrote all three articles very early on when there were two expectations that have changed drastically since the timeline creation: the first being that most of the North American continent was empty and the second is that most Americans know what happened to Regan.

I think all three nations could be uninterested in rejoining the USA with Lincoln (nation) being worried about the federal government overruling local decision makers and both Superior and Virginia becoming regional powers on their own, really not needing the USA at this stage.

While I do not believe the United States will ever regain control of the entire former territory, I think it will grow in size a bit more and I believe a system like what is occurring with the US Atlantic Remnant (US Virgin Islands and a few other assorted ones) will become more common as communications and transportation improves.

That the parts of the country interested in rejoining do so, but as an associated state, not a full fledged territory or state. Similar to the modern (OTL) US relation ship with Palau or other United States Associated States.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I also believe, given that much of western Minnesota has been abandoned or unclaimed, the United States may reform the state with the capital in Moorehead.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Everything that you're saying is correct in my opinion. In addition to those other factors, I'll add that the timeline had a serious localism bias. Most of the US survivor states were developed singly, and this led to the ascription of isolationism and an anti-Union stance without considering the full context. The southeastern quarter of the US was developed along more of a coherent regional plan, and it shows.
Fortunately we have a decade of recent history to work with, and a lot of that could be described as "the situation as of 2011". The events of the American Spring have been presented as fairly monumental but, as that page shows, writers only followed up on them in a few places. We've explored pro-Union changes in some of the small states near the US (Cimarron, the San Juan Islands, Pasco, Cascadia, and Jefferson/MSP) because they were easy. But the impact in the big states must have been much more complex. It is a massive oversimplification to talk about "what Utah wants"; as a representative democracy, surely it has competing factions that want different things. The question of Union is urgent enough that it could realign party systems and determine entire political agendas. Thinking about how the question will play out across the region, especially as it moves toward a more integrated and interdependent economy and culture, we'll have to consider these kinds of opposing points of view.
As with everything, there are definitely some past misjudgments that need recalibrating. But also as ever, it's better to do this by exploring nuance and reframing things as much as possible, rather than wholesale changing facts. On the other hand, we have a Review process precisely for when things are simply implausible as written, and we can definitely use that if it's necessary.
Your final PS about Minnesota is a good one. As Dakota develops as a coherent state, it makes sense that it would have an impact on whoever is living across the border there. And it says that Fargo is the biggest town there, which means that there absolutely has to be some kind of presence in Moorhead, which by now may have developed into a state, or at least a US territory that will soon become a state. False Dmitri (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I think also one other aspect that need to be addressed is how the nations in NA seems to be isolated and unaware of their neighbours even if at 10 miles of distance, and this also reflect to the outside world. One prime example is that Australian pilot that crashes in Virginia and then got rescued and reveal at the world the existence of Virginia, this is incoherent, stupid and unrealistic from any point but especially from a geographical and historical standpoint, because of many factors like movement between different parts of the US, the creation of trade routes across the former US, the awareness of the general people about the fact that some areas might have survive better then others and sheer distance, i found very strange that Delmarva didn't establish connections as early as 87 with Virginia, considering their distance.

We talked with Ben about private voyages and also about the fact that transatlantic trade and exploration could be resumed as early as the 1990s, just after the arrival of the Australians in Europe, this would begin a period of trade and connection between the survivor eastern states of US and the European states that faces into the Atlantic or that have the possibility to make such distant travels, but this voyages would not just be driven by trade and profit, but also exploration, adventure, seek of fortune and a variety of different means. For the Mediterranean we talked how it will be even by the late 80s a bustling sea filled with ships that travel from east to west and from south to north, bringing news, shipping goods, transporting people and travellers alike in one port to an another and also the rising treat of piracy in the Mediterranean. Alex (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I also think there is one of the history pages (I’m not sure which one) that describes most of the US as a barren wasteland, which is unrealistic for two reasons: the first part is that much of the region the pilot would have flown over is barren desert even in OTL and the second is that several countries exist in this region which while not existing as nations yet would still have surviving communities.

I think some nations may have taken an isolationist standpoint, but there would be contact. I wrote Susquehanna to align with the other PA survivor states history, since they were written about 4 years before “my” nation and I think Susquehanna’s borders make sense, geographically. The Susquehanna in the west is a natural border, and the Pocono’s/Appalachians in the south are another barrier. But based on the history to match canon, Susquehanna doesn’t contact the nations until the early 2000’s. I wrote it to match, but I don’t think it is logical. While Susquehanna didn’t official declare independence until 2005, it organized in the mid 1990’s and had a semblance of government since the late 1980’s. I think many nations (or predecessors) in a region would have been in at least sporadic contact within months after Doomsday.

Though with the power grid being severely damaged it would hamper radio and phone communication, but runners and people on bikes would likely be used.

For example (using Pennsylvania as an example): I could see Reading, State College, and Susquehanna being in contact, but the distance between Reading and Bloomsburg is 74 miles, between State College and Bloomsburg is 91 miles, and between Reading and State College is about 144 miles (though it passes through Harrisburg, so it would probably be a bit further). This is close enough they could likely be in touch, but trying to govern the region would be very challenging.

I think it would be more plausible for the state government to take control of the State College region, but recognizes that it couldn’t control that much of the state, designating regional governments to control it. Over time, they garner more autonomy and eventually declare independence in the late 1990’s.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah i think this is something that we need to recognize as a big flaw in the project and review it, is basically impossible that this states in Pennsylvania didn't see human movements even in the early 80s. For example in the case of Italy i write that Palermo was almost immediatly to maintain communication with the outside world thanks to the use of radio communicaton and the informations gater by the navy in the patrolling of Sicilian waters, but it maintain itself in contact with Malta, Sardinia, Reggio Calabria, Tunisia and other parts of Europe. Alex (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It's the "Sid Meier's Civilization" fallacy - assuming that people have no way of getting information unless they send out official Explorers and Diplomats and Trade delegations. In reality people would be moving around, a lot. And these same pages address this by referring to refugees - but these are usually depicted as mindless hordes destroying everything in their path: essentially, they're Barbarian units from Sid Meier's Civilization.
Histories of the pre-colonial Americas often run into a similar fallacy, underestimating how interconnected those societies were, and just how far people used to regularly travel for trade and other contacts. I think I'll quote at length from Stephen Lekson's introduction to A History of the Ancient Southwest (2008), which I have handy:

"I want to shift the burden of proof from the current default that ancient Indians (until proven otherwise with lead-pipe certainty) were ignorant hicks who knew little or nothing beyond their front yards or at best their valleys. We labor mightily - spending lavishly for laboratory tests of who made what where - to demonstrate that Indians on one side of the river knew about Indians on the other side of the river. Why start with such an unrealistic, even demeaning, assumption? Why not instead assume that people were aware of what was going on over the hill and over the horizon? Assume interconnections!"

And those interconnections would precede the rise of organized governments, sometimes by a lot. They would start with those very refugees: surely some people would move into a place, decide that there must be better opportunities elsewhere, and move on to a different place. This could easily transition into a more-or-less permanent state of nomadism for some people, and they would bring news wherever they traveled. False Dmitri (talk) 01:29, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi guys, I just got back from a very busy period in real life, and am trying to catch up with recent discussions on the timeline. Just my two cents, a year ago I had done some work on Hannibal and the Quad Cities, and they were leaning towards possibly rejoining the US (Hannibal much more strongly than Quad Cities). Also, Zack and I had discussed his Joplin project and some other Missouri-based survivor states reunifying into a renewed State of Missouri in some form. In a different region, the New Jersey Skylands canonically is sympathetic to the idea of rejoining the USA, but for the time being it's rather distant. There was an idea higher up on the page about certain far-flung pro-US communities taking on some sort of associated status with Torrington, and I suppose the Skylands would be in favor of that.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw those ideas into the mix for consideration. I'm still reading up on stuff that's happened in the last couple months, but I'm eager to get back into the swing of things! GryffindorKrypton ([[User talk:GryffindorKrypton|talk]]) 02:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

There appears to be some physical geographical division between Minnesota and the QCA as well as Hannibal. I feel like that might hamper reunification. Maybe the US could investigate having them set up as associated states for the time being and the two countries confederate or something?

Regarding the New Jersey Skylands, I think it is possible they would open up dialogue with the eastern Pennsylvanian survivors states and maybe attempt to join the Confederation of Pennsylvanian States, though it doesn't control any territory in Pennsylvania.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Associated states on the model of the Virgin Islands, that's probably a good idea. There's no model for that in US history - I think it would be very smart to add a section to US Constitution (1983: Doomsday) describing this process, so it doesn't have to be ad hoc every time they form links with someone. Instead there can be a regular system of Associated States (or is there a better term?) that are understood as a step toward future statehood. False Dmitri (talk) 18:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I would agree. I think the title should be based on the relationship. In OTL, Associated States with the United States are independent but the US is responsible for their defense (in exchange the US has exclusive rights to operate military installations) and the nations have access to US economic benefits. The other option would be Unincorporated Organized US Commonwealth, which has a relationship like Puerto Rico.

I think countries with a significant physical separation or an interest in a higher level of autonomy would see Associated State status, but others would look to become territories.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm arguing that there should be a separate category for such places, since there are no circumstances in OTL that match these - former parts of the US that seek a closer relationship with the country, but which can't be states for whatever reason. I would think that the new constitution would provide an easy, standard way to incorporate the rest of the earlier US territory. False Dmitri (talk) 02:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I would add my unwanted two cents into the discussion while sidestepping the issues which I agree with, that being that contact wouldn't be overall as severely nerfed, people would hear and know about distant places, the problem isn't that, it's being able to control with the stuff you have. But I digress.

What I really wanna talk about in this case is Superior, Virginia and (shudders) Lincoln. Lincoln is just bad, no doubt about it whatsoever. That thing needs a good rewriting asap. My opinions on Virginia are... yeah, not good, but its militarism overall would put it at odds with the idea of a more democratic return to pre-DD American democracy, thus I could see them being opposed to restoration to America as it was pre-DD, and be more for a restoration of a more military-controlled America. So I can see them being opposed to the idea of the USA as it was pre-DD, as opposed to the US as a concept overall. As for Superior, here we deal with a survivor state that is not solely American. Here we talk about a state centered on the UP, but with lots of Canadian survivors as well. And while I can imagine in their hearts, the Americans feel American, they'd be economically wired together, and thus would be either trying to convince the Canadians to become American or, if it doesn't work, stay independent. The Great Lakes being split would hurt the people in Superior imo, so I can see in some sense why the government is not really into Americanism overall. And I think this needs to be considered for all cross-border survivors, that them integrating economically and to some extent culturally over 40 years into each other might not make them willing to leave.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

As the owner of VA, I also had issues with the anti-American sentiment, which I asked about in the forums. Dimitri's explanation was that "DD changed everything," which is possible but has issues, as mentioned above. I also agree that the authoritarianism would cause VA to oppose a reunification with a democratic USA. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 03:07, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, that was my idea of reconciling Virginia's bonkers anti-Americanism with realistic takes. Overall, I could see states like Kentucky and Virginia (idk if I like the name Virginia for a state in West Virginia, but let's work with it for now) oppose the democratic weakness of the USA, calling for a stronger and military-rooted executive, glorifying George Washington in that sense as having been a military leader, while seeing the judicial and especially the legislative branches as subservient to the strong executive. I could see that feeling being strengthened by Reagan and Bush leaving the US.
As for other nations, like the aforementioned Superior and especially for Victoria, the issue comes that those areas would already be economically integrated into one another pretty well, and in the case of Victoria, would prolly be doing better economically THAN the US. Trying to break those up would be p bad for those areas, so in Superior, Americanism would not be supported by the emergent establishment, while in Victoria, Americanism would be imo an overall minority opinion in their parts of Washington.
TL;DR a better solution to Virginia is making their philosophy to a state different, to explain away their wonkiness, and cross-former border states will have lots of doubts regarding reunification with America. But that's just my proposal.
     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  12:18, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Honestly, let's just do it. If there aren't any objections, I will be implementing this. Firestarthegodcat (talk) 04:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
iirc Virginia is already under a review banner, if not, just slap a review template on it before you start doing it. Thewolvesden 09:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Done. Feel free to now remove the review banner. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
If you are owner of the page, you don't really need to do a review (which in theory should stay open for a month). Especially for changes that don't hugely affect the wider canon such as this. FP (talk) 14:08, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
That said, I don't see evidence of you owning it or adopting it, so I think a review would perhaps be necessary. FP (talk) 14:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
Evidence. I also wanted to make sure to respect canon. Firestarthegodcat (talk) 03:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
That's not really evidence, as you can see that user only made one edit to the page, which was capitalising the word 'glass'. Definitely not the owner, otherwise EoGuy would own half the pages on the wiki. The true owner seems to be Yank, but he's not been active for a while so it should be fine. FP (talk) 11:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the Appalachian region could have developed fascist tendencies. If we look at this regions in OTL, it is much more conservative than the rest of the United States, and the surrounding regions. It has been this way for the past two hundred or more years. In the 1980’s Democrats in this region were much closer to moderate or center right Republicans, as the Party realignment was still underway until the late 1990’s.

From what I have gathered, General James E. Thompson Jr. was only appointed the commander of the 101st Airborne and Fort Campbell in August of 1983. It also glosses over the collapse of the West Virginia State Government (which, I actually think would have survived Doomsday relatively well). Also, we should note in 1974 it was reorganized into an Air Assault Division, and the entire division was not stationed at Fort Campbell. From what I have gathered, the entire division also rotated deployment with the Multi-National Peacekeeping Force in Lebanon from 1982 until at least 1985 on 6 month rotations.

I could see the WV state government and National Guard exerting control over Charleston and the surrounding regions but struggling towards the Maryland/Pennsylvania/Virginia border as refugees from the DC Metro and Pittsburgh flow into the state. The 101st arrives and permits the state government to secure the region.

I don’t know how General Thompson’s personality but we should be careful that we aren’t being ridiculous or completely out of boundaries with his personality.

Also, Virginia’s economic situation is far too optimistic. Most of the mining in the state is related to coal with some gravel, limestone, sand, and stone mining occurring. There are no metal mines in the state, however Wheeling has several steel mills. I don’t know if Virginia would have a large steel industry or be able to produce automobiles let alone tanks.

Daeseunglim (talk) 05:48, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Burger Reasturant Chain of the new United States

Does anybody think at a chain o diners/ Fast food burger joints could pop in the new united states. After all the new united states does contorl some the old united states biggest wheat and cattle lands and wheat and beef are major compents of burgers. If so when doseanybody think a chain would form. I feel that would probbly the late 90's at the early although a few inpendent joints may have opened up before thatGoldwind1 (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Go for it, you could prolly do smth better in the West in the New USA that could maybe spread to the other NAU nations?

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Atlantic Defense Community

We should look into the expansion of the Atlantic Defense Community. At one point there were discussions of adding Plymouth and Delmarva to the organization. I think the ADC would be interested in having membership in the former USA, given they are likely aware of Virginia and its stance towards Saguenay and Canada are detrimental to the group. Also, I think there is potential for some of the French survivor states to join, as well as Florida and Southern England.

I also believe, with the political union between the US Virgin Islands and the United States there would at a bare minimum be conversations of future American admittance or involvement in the organization.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I also think that Croatia and Slovenia would be full members. I could also see the Association of the Free Italian States, Essex, Cleveland, Northumbria, and Southern England joining.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

The AFIS is an organization similar to ASEAN or the pre 1983 EU, so every member of the Association is free to decide on their own if they want to join the ADC or not too. Alex (talk) 20:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Thank you Alex for clarifying! So maybe a few nations decide to join and some don't? I'm not the best person to decide this (and I also think this needs group consensus).

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:59, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

As with other things Delmarva, please try to contact Fxgentleman about it. He is definitely around and writing things, though his focus is not on Delmarva at the moment. False Dmitri (talk) 03:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC) Yeah mainly that, i can see both Sardinia, Genoa, Venice and Tuscany definitely joining the ADC, but idk about the other members like Piedmont or San Marino too. Alex (talk) 12:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Delmarva and Plymouth are fine to join, even Aroostook, and some of the English nations, I'd hold off on Florida personally, just bcs I feel Florida would much more be in the Mexican-Caribbean sphere than in the North Atlantic one.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  10:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think Aroostook would consider or apply for membership due to its internal politics. Considering the split in population with French-Americans, French-Canadians, Anglo-Americans, and Anglo-Canadians, as it is definitely pro-Canadian organization and fought Saguenay just over a decade ago. Regarding Florida, do you think the nation would join the Caribbean Federation?

I am setting up the Confederation of Pennsylvanian States (CPS) to be leaning pro-Canadian (it tends to support other Pennsylvanian survivor states and is wary of Virginia and Superior, hence leaning pro-Canada). I do not think the group will join the ADC because of its location and the fact that the three member nations have a combined military strength of 9,794 active personnel, 1,766 reservists, and 1,190 paramilitary personnel with only riverine patrol and regional air defense and supply.

However, I think the Confederation of Pennsylvanian States would seek a similar relationship with the Atlantic Defense Community as the NATO OTL status of Major Non-NATO Ally.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

LoN HQ Movement

Hey all, we have been doing a little work on the LoN recently and though it best, as more nation are joining the LoN that a more suitable location for the HQ would need to be established. This will happen within the timeline so the info on Tonga will still be canon. the reasoning behind the move is complaint from a lot of Atlantic focussed nations struggling to reach Nukualofa and the assembly building being too small for purpose. Initially as a stop gap the assembly is moved to Noumea in RTFA while decisions on an official relocation are underway.

The new location would have to satisfy the following aspects; 1 Can not be in anyway biased to the SAC or the ANZC

2 Be in an accessible location for most nations 2a Be coastal as the majority of delegations are likely to travel by ship

3 be in an international city

4 ideally be in the southern hemisphere

We have considered a few cities that have been rejected for not following these guidelines

Kyoto/Sapporo Japan - Rejected due to japans isolationist policies and for being too far from the SAC Veracruz Mexico - Rejected for being too far away from the ANZC Auckland/ Montevideo - Obvious Reasons Geneva - Too Central to the alps, hard to reach Berlin - Inland hard to reach for southern hemisphere nations Torrington - USA too new a nation to be the LoN HQ Jerusalem - Mediterranean has been unstable until recent history Taipei - Chinese states would object, too far from SAC

Its not an exhaustive list but we have considered many cities. In the end we have landed on Cape Town. It is central to most nations and doesnt favour SAC of ANZC. Both the ANZC and SAC have had an input in capetown so it seems correct that the city would house the LoN HQ. Being coastal makes it easily accessible by boat. It also keeps the focus southern. We would like to hear what you think! Trainor90 (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


Cape Town is prolly one of the better choices. We came to the conclusion that Nuku'alofa in Tonga and Pape'ete in French Polynesia too small, so while we think they should be the original meeting grounds, we think they would move to a temporary site at Nouméa in New Caledonia until Cape Town is stable enough to become seat of the LoN. Just a bit of history we came up with.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  20:15, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I've thought for a long time that Tonga was a reeally bizarre choice just because it's so small and remote. The LoN needs to be in (this timeline's version of) a global city - for transportation, communication, infrastructure, amenities, etc. Tonga seems to have barely enough space to house the delegates themselves, let alone their staffs, the people who work in the headquarters, officials in the agencies, ancillary people who make a living off the "world capital"... so many people, so many things, on a tiny island nation.
Now to preserve canon, I would not want to retcon this. Tonga can absolutely be where the conference to establish the LoN was, and maybe for lack of a better place the delegates continued to meet there for a year or two. Most of the references to Tonga are probably from those first two years anyway, 2008-2010. From there, yes let's follow TheWolvesDen's suggestion and have a temporary move to Nouméa, which is also a Pacific island but a more substantial and less remote one.
But then Cape Town seems almost too perfect, in my opinion, and not just because it's the city I've been working on. It's a major port with at least the potential to be a global city. It's in the southern hemisphere and on a continent that's often neglected in OTL but is much more centrally important in TTL. It's located in between the 2 biggest power blocs. Compared to the Pacific, it's more accessible to the bulk of the world's nations. And like Trainor says, it just happens to have intimate political, economic, and military links to both blocs and is a showcase for successful multilateral action. I don't know why it took us this long to think of it, actually.
How about this for a timetable? - 2008: LoN established in Tonga. 2010: LoN outgrows Tonga and moves to New Caledonia as a temporary location. 2014: Cape Town selected. 2015: Move to Cape Town using temporary facilities. 2017: New LoN building inaugurated. False Dmitri (talk) 20:57, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, if I recall correctly, the consensus was that disasters caused by or influence by things that humans could alter (like the climate or biosphere) would be changed by Doomsday (wildfires, hurricanes, tornadoes, certain floods) and events not effected by human impact would remain the same (earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis triggered by aforementioned events).

So the recent volcano and tsunami in Tonga would occur in ATL. Even if the LoN remained in Tonga up until 2022 in the timeline, I think this disaster would trigger a move to a nation with less risk.

I think Cape Town is a good solution. It’s central between the ANZC and SAC, more accessible to other nations, and a region that was created by two of the three global superpowers. This might spur more African, European, and North American nations to join the League.

Siberia might protest the move, however I suspect this would be a vote by the General Assembly versus the High Council.

I think we should also consider that the LoN might have more powerful regional grouping that would act somewhat autonomously given that the world (especially the Northern Hemisphere) still struggles with global communications and transportation.

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Fair point, which is why I think the regional high commissions would play an important part on the local level, as opposed to the hq in Cape Town. With their own regional assemblies and everything.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  13:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe it's that the General Assembly is broken into regions, and that these meet separately more often than together. False Dmitri (talk) 16:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I really like this idea of regional meeting groups. I think maybe the LoN begins these in the mid-2010’s when they see a sharp drop in applications and participation. The League tries to resolve this but it is quickly realized that travel is challenging most nations.

I think we should also review and add more members to the LoN page, it doesn’t appear to have been updated since around 2012 (barring when I added Susquehanna as a non-applicant). There really aren’t that many members compared to how many countries exist in the world and I think the League will have seen more expansion into Europe and North America.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28

Continental Weather Service

A proposal by the user named Codes & Roads. Not sure what the scope of this is. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Allegheny War

Tentative war I have an idea for between the Dixie Alliance/Superior and Delmarva/PA survivor states. If its agreed for this not to be canon or the page owners don't want their nations to be involved I can obsolete or modify the page. However this region seems to be a powder keg considering the alignment during the Saguenay War, Virginian territorial aggression, and borders or claimed territory beginning to overlap and interfere with each other or at the bare minimum beginning to reach each other.

I think a 12 year gap between the Saguenay War and this proposed conflict is enough time for the borders to expand to this point (note that Delmarva, North Penn, Reading, and State College are still working off borders that are around 10 years old at this point). The name is more of a placeholder, we can probably find something more appropriate or accurate for the conflict.

I have my proposed sides and my reasoning:

  • Basically Virginia seizes military bases or settlements Delmarva controls on the Chesapeake in the former state of Virginia.
  • Delmarva begins to mobilize and reach out to regional allies or partners for support. Meanwhile Virginia calls the EAA to a meeting to declare war to seize more territory, who agree with Kentucky supplying in the mid 20k and Cape Girardiau supplying several hundred attached to Kentucky's contribution.
  • Virginia subtly threatens to attack North Penn and State College if they do not acquiesce to Virginian territorial demands which encompasses land the two latter nations already control. It secretly prepares with Gettysburg to take control of Lancaster County (for another angle to attack Delmarva at) and Huntingdon to distract from the other points in the war.
  • North Penn and State College sign an agreement to support each other in a war while not conceding their own disputes (given cooperation at Saint Marys I find this to be a realistic agreement). Both countries pressure Reading and Susquehanna to support them, which both nations initially decline (not knowing the secret plan to invade Lancaster County).
  • Virginia reaches out to Saguenay and Superior who both join the Dixie Alliance (informally not as members) as payback to North Penn for supporting Canada, however Superior is limited to its Navy and Air Force with some marines in support while Saguenay is limited to a detachment of soldiers with Superior. Most of their personnel are concentrated to protect if Canada intervenes.
  • Superior agrees to spearhead naval operations against North Penn and disrupt trade with Canada. A joint Gettysburg/Virginia force will confront Delmarva. Kentucky and Virginia will invade North Penn/State College, and Gettysburg will occupy southern Reading and southern State College with support from Virginia.
  • The war breaks out full scale from skirmishes that were occurring between Delmarva and Virginia in early July 2021.
  • Delmarva is preparing a naval operation to land troops and recapture some military bases, but are forced to divert and defend against a large assault on the surviving military bases on Delmarvian controlled Virginia (former US state).
  • They are also forced to divert some reserves and artillery north to defend against some light attacks by Gettysburg in former Maryland.
  • North Penn and State College were anticipating an attack but are still pushed back a bit with State College not prepared for a two front war and North Penn was not anticipating Superior naval operations, which hinders trade. However overland trade still occurs and London and Niagara Falls make it clear an act of aggression towards neutral shipping is an act of war on their countries. The two nations are pushed back a bit to former PA Route 422 in the north and east.
  • Reading is taken completely off guard and a training exercise between Reading and Susquehanna is quickly reoriented to fend off the invasion. Gettysburg occupies a small portion of southern Northumberland County in Susquehanna (more as a statement) but are unable to take Fort Indiantown Gap, like it was hoping.
  • Reading and Susquehanna begin to mobilize their military forces and form a unified force under Reading. The PA survivor states form two tasks forces with North Penn/State College leading in the west and Reading in the east. A joint command center is set up in State College for Delmarva and all of PA to coordinate.
  • Meanwhile, Virginia sets up the equivalent at the Greenbriar.

I'm still gathering my thoughts on this, but what is the group consensus?

Overall, I think the combined Delmarva/PA force would be victorious just given their alliance with Canada and the ADC, who may intervene and at a minimum would likely supply the best weapons money could buy. I think Virginia would be forced to recognize Delmarva control over parts of eastern Virginia (state), while being limited in Pennsylvania to already occupied territory. Nothing would happen to the rest of the Dixie Alliance or Superior beyond financial penalties and losses in manpower and equipment. I don't think much territory would actually change hands as I don't think any of the nations have the manpower to actually secure and control land that was original part of the enemy.

I think it would end similar to how the Saguenay War ended, where the D/PA alliance is beginning to push hard against the Dixie Alliance forces to a point they may win, but the ADC and Canada press the group to stop as an invasion would be unlikely to succeed and controlling the territory would be impossible. I could see the Dixie Alliance being disbanded by the victors, but reformed rapidly under a different name by Kentucky and Virginia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I think I should let let you that I left a request on lahbas page to adopt superior . I must confess I forgot to sign my post but according to labhas talk page history I was the last person to edit his talk page. Labhas didn't responce so I belive I now own superior but I could be worng. I perfer to think superior reject virigna offer, that superio new persident consider the squenacy war be a mistake of the pervious and he dosn't think it is a good idea to send troops die in a forgin country war. He also dosn't feel comfortable with virgina's miltance.

I disagree with this and frankly, Virginia and Superior impact too many pages to feasibly edit significantly. Superior absolutely would be looking for payback against North Penn, even the Saguenay War page indicates that Superior and Virginia were both extremely angry at North Pennsylvania for intervening against the Lawrence Raiders. Even 12 years after the war, this resentment would absolutely remain.

Superior and Virginia both seem extremely unhappy with Canadian influence in the region via its own territory and proxy states or allies. This would give it the opportunity to severely damage the alliance and potentially hamper Canadian expansion into southern Ontario going forward.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:35, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

What is the group consensus on the outcome? I have five major campaigns and three minor campaign in the works:

Major -

  1. Virginian invasion of Delmarva controlled Virginia (US State)
  2. East American Alliance invasion of North Pennsylvania and State College
  3. Delmarva/Pennsylvania counterattack in Virginia
  4. Gettysburg/Virginia invasion of Reading and Susquehanna
  5. Pennsylvanian counter invasion of Gettysburg and Virginia

Minor -

  1. Virginia and Superior blockade of Lake Erie and North Pennsylvania
  2. East American Alliance air bombardment of Reading, State College, and Susquehanna
  3. Delmarva/Pennsylvania air raids on Gettysburg, Kentucky, and Virginia.

My planned outcome is a bit of a stalemate with the EAA and Gettysburg having more manpower and armor, but Delmarva and Pennsylvania receiving advanced anti-armor and anti-aircraft weapons from Canada and the ADC, negating the opposing side's advances. Also, Delmarva/Pennsylvania have an easier time resupplying troops and have militaries more aligned with fighting in the poorly maintained environments as EAA armor struggle to operate outside of their nations due to road conditions, and aircraft are mostly forced to launch with reduced loads from Virginia and Kentucky due to very few airstrips existing in Pennsylvania.

Canada and the ADC support Delmarva/Pennsylvania to prevent a Virginian hegemony while Saguenay supports Superior but is severely limited as Canada prepares troops if Saguenay gets more involved.

Both sides are pushed to the negotiating table by the United Communities and Vermont. The outcome is as follows:

  1. All members of the EAA must join the United Communities
  2. Reparations for aerial bombardment of civilian structures are to be paid out by the opposing side
  3. Vermont and the UC investigate reports of war crimes committed by both sides
  4. Delmarva is limited to expand to Spotsylvania/Chesterfield counties in the west and Hampton County in the south
  5. Gettysburg is limited to expand to Bedford County in the west and and existing State College border in the north
  6. North Pennsylvania is limited to Allegheny County in the south and Indiana County in the east with the future of Indiana County subject to UC arbitration
  7. State College is limited to Indiana County in the west, subject to UC arbitration
  8. Virginia is limited to expand to Westmoreland County in the north and Somerset County in the east in Pennsylvania and Spotsylvania/Chesterfield counties in the east and Hampton County in the north in Virginia

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I pretty much had a similar proposal that went obsolete, mainly due to the fact that both were anti-US and thus wouldn't have such a flare-up/war. Otherwise, I like this thing. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 11:32, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
That's right, I was trying to remember where that was. Daesung, have you seen this proposal? Anything there that might be incorporated into yours? Virginian-Delmarvan War (1983: Doomsday)
More important though, Fxgentleman is active again and as the creator of Delmarva (and as someone rather protective of his own creations), he should weigh in before this would graduate. Has anyone contacted him about it? A message on his talk page would be a good idea. False Dmitri (talk) 18:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Firestarthegodcat I don't think Delmarva and Virginia being uninterested in reunification would be a catalyst. I am setting a catalyst as the fact that Virginia claims all of the former state of Virginia but Delmarva has incorporated several counties along the Eastern Shore into its nation. It's already been indicated that the two nations have tense relations, and Virginia being a military state while Delmarva is a democracy would likely exacerbate this.

Daeseunglim (talk) 00:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Firestarthegodcat (talk) 03:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Largo Foods 1983

A food processing conglomerate form the Celtic alliance.

Two things:

  1. Please sign your posts with your username in the talk threads so we know who is making the suggestion. You can make a signature with four tildes ‘Daeseunglim (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)’
  2. Please follow the naming convention of PAGE TITLE (1983: Doomsday)

Note that PAGE TITLE is a placeholder and would be the name of your proposed topic (in this case, Largo Foods).

Thank you.

Daeseunglim (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The article has some serious spelling and language errors that need to be addressed before it graduates. False Dmitri (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I cleared some of the spelling errors up.Thameside (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Réunion

An old proposal made by Mscoree (who is now blocked) is on the talk page and I have repurposed some of it and fixed some of the mistakes pointed out by Lordganon. For the full proposal go here and for the edited/fixed version go here. User:I need to learn human interaction (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Looking good, maybe needs a bit more emphasis on this being the most populous RTFA/Sixth Republic territory.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Specialized Agencies of the League of Nations

This is off a talk thread regarding the four seperate pages for LoN medical agencies. I think we should have one page for League of Nations Specialized Agencies. While I have created the page I think this should be a collaborative effort. We should discuss and review what existing agencies the LoN would restore from the UN, new agencies created by the organization, and pre-Doomsday organizations that would not be restored.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:31, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

It's a necessary thing tbf, the LoN needs some structure in DD.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Berks County, Chester County, Dauphin County, Lancaster County, Lebanon County, Lehigh County, & Schuylkill County

I have created seperate pages for the counties in Reading. They will be brief pages similar to the pages I created for the counties in Susquehanna a few years back.

Daeseunglim (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Good Hope

To follow up on my proposed revisions to the RotC, I have attempted to write about the Cape's modern history and a transition away from the RZA provisional government. Cape of Good Hope is a name that was being floated earlier by Imp and Oerwinde, along with various flag proposals, though I prefer this one here with the simpler symbols taken from the CoA, rather than the old Cape Colony arms themselves. But I've used this new page to write out a lot of recent history for the Cape, starting with the foreign occupation and continuing today. My plan is to develop it more with politics, culture, and issues since independence. False Dmitri (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

With New Britain being substantially redeveloped to eliminate the poorly input tropes, I think we should seriously consider that the ANZC and SAC might coordinate with the country to occupy the RZA. I could see the two powers having the Dominion of South Africa annex the Cape of Good Hope as an part of the country, possibly with a high degree of autonomy. South Africa is significantly closer than the ANZC and SAC. The ANZC and SAC could provide material and personnel support to South Africa but, once the country is liberate, the British government takes over the region.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Well both in the earlier canon and the new version, NB/DSA swoops in to seize a very substantial chunk of the Cape's territory during that same intervention. It's possible that they coordinated with the great powers a little more... but I honestly don't mind the original thing - that the RZA was a case of the world's major powers coordinating a major operation, largely without trusting the locals. The Dominion was still small and not at the table with the big players at that point. And there were reasons for the outsiders to not want to trust it or work with it. And the South Americans might have their own reasons for wanting to do it themselves. Lingering tensions related to the Falklands. And the prize, a toehold on the brink of the Indian Ocean, must have been attractive as well. I'm totally OK leaving the geopolitics of the Cape as they have been. False Dmitri (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Very good points, I didn’t consider the South American viewpoint which is likely to hold true in OTL, given the dispute is alive and well, 40 years after the Falklands War.

Do you think then, it is implausible that the British would have sold the HMS Invincible to Brazil in this timeline?

Daeseunglim (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's still fine. There's no reason why the DSA can't have normal relations with Brazil and most of South America. Even when it comes to Argentina, I think things are probably pretty much normal between them, just with some lingering weirdness - they aren't likely to plan any joint military operations together. False Dmitri (talk) 21:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Article looks fine so far, and it's a good development. Though I think our discussions in Discord regarding the moving of the seat of the LoN to Cape Town should be added here as soon as we come to an agreement on that.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I've added some stuff about that to the article, it adds some really interesting possibilities regarding the city's culture. False Dmitri (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


The OBN\CA joint list of all known and suspected nukings in the UK on Doomsday

The 2022 OBN\CA joint UK census repot and listing of nuclear strikes on the UK (1983: Doomsday): Well, you wanted some one to reboot the list of British nukings! Feel free to alter it as you wish since it's just my rough thoughts and educated guesses on the issue. Also 2 nukes failed to go off and 6 missed in DD1983 lore any how.

Thameside (talk) 00:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a really useful reference list, great work, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better being on a talk page or user sub-page. The equivalent page in the canon already exists in the form of Doomsday in the United Kingdom, thus another page to list the same/similar information isn't necessary. FP (talk) 23:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

It is a proposed replacement for it.Thameside (talk) 01:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be more suitable to adapt the old page with the new agreed information. Perhaps we can open a review of the original page? FP (talk) 01:26, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Yep.Thameside (talk) 01:31, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I am working on population levels and they can be added in an amended version of the old Doomsday in the United Kingdom page.Thameside (talk) 01:36, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good. Keep working on your new page, and we can decide whether to move it to the old one or keep your new version. FP (talk) 01:37, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I am consolidating the 100kt strikes in to none list, the talk page lists the old page with explanatory sub-headings and my rational for nuking places.Thameside (talk) 02:05, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

It's finished.Thameside (talk) 19:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Federation of Northern Ireland

I've started writing the Federation of Northern Ireland (1983: Doomsday). Thameside (talk) 00:41, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

List of U2 Albums

List of U2 Albums

I added a few fictional and topical songs to the list. Thameside (talk) 01:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Early life in Manchuria

I found these old proposals and they are not on this list, so I added them to the list. Thameside (talk) 02:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

People in America

Thameside (talk) 22:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

... Frankly, I don't even know where to start with these articles. They're p barebones, and I hardly see why they exist. I guess they follow canon though?

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  12:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that the goal in general is worthwhile: look at a serial killer from OTL (or someone caught up in his life) and work out an alternate story for him in this setting. But I don't think there's much reason for an article like the Siebert one, which pretty much is just "he died in the nuclear war". And then from what I've been able to find about Hendren, that page is not accurate. He met Siebert in Arizona, but it was while he was moving across the country from California to Alabama. He never lived in Arizona - unless I'm missing something. One source I found says he was moving from Hollywood, which means he probably did not survive. There are probably better choices for an "alternate destiny for a serial killer" story. False Dmitri (talk) 02:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Grenada

Noticing that Grenada is for some reason missing, I have decided to make a page on it, maybe to jumpstart the process and with that maybe make an overall review of the Caribbean possible. This is still in writing, but I'd like some feedback regarding the ideas currently presented within the article, barebones as it is.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  17:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Even though Doomsday occurs, I suspect Maurice Bishop still would have been executed. The plan would have been brewing for months prior to Doomsday (the military claimed Bishop was too capitalist as he had been encouraging private development of the island to encourage tourism) and in OTL, his death occurs only 25 days after Doomsday in the ATL. I believe this is one of the few case where an OTL event still occurs. However, the US invasion of Grenada realistically didn’t happen as the US Armed Forces would be focused on regaining communication, stabilizing operational areas, evacuating civilians, and figuring out what happened.

Likely the leader would be Hudson Austin or another younger higher ranking military officer. I don’t see the nation joining CARICOM as they have fundamentally opposing ideologies. Additionally, Barbados, Dominica, and Jamaica all were clearly opposed to the government of the nation. I could see Cuba, Guatemala, Grenada, the Dominican Republic, and Nicaragua forming a separate regional organization affiliated with the CSTO to counter CARICOM.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I originally thought that Bishop would get it too, but overall, the coup wasn't solely about private ownership vs nationalisation, it was about moving closer to Cuba and the Soviet Union publicly and renouncing the monarchy too, stuff that becomes quite irrelevant post-DD, and nationalisation at that point would be done by even anti-communist governments. While the tensions remain, I'd say the coup could happen later on, and I have an idea of how to integrate a coup with other stuff in the island's history.

As to CARICOM, we were thinking that CSTO overall needs a review, as the insane distances between members is... yeah, insane. And even as such, Grenada cannot solely survive by staying only in contact with a heavily destroyed Cuba, a Guatemala in conflict with itself, a Nicaragua that is recovering from a massive civil war, and a Dominican Republic that is somehow portrayed as being the same as the former 3, when it fact it's just a more socialist-leaning democracy as far as I understand it. As much as ideological purity is a thing, I am not really convinced of that being in any way sustainable for Grenada. Thewolvesden 12:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Vietnam

1234chernobyl began a review for Vietnam but put it in the Adoptions section. So I'm listing it here for discussion. False Dmitri (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Really good changes so far. The original version had the regime collapse and essentially revive the South Vietnamese government for no real reason. The changes eliminate that but manage to avoid cascading changes because they give Vietnam the same footprint in the world - close ties to ANZ, etc. I'm in favor. False Dmitri (talk) 16:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
  • http://www.nifm.org.vn/bai-viet/co-mot-can-ham-bi-mat-khac-duoi-hoang-thanh-thang-long_14159.aspx
  • https://anninhthudo.vn/nhung-can-ham-tranh-bom-mot-phan-ky-uc-cua-ha-noi-post417091.antd
  • http://hoalo.vn/Articles/12/23529/Ky-uc-thoi-dan-bom-Ham-tang-xe.html

Those are three links that reported about bunkers in Hanoi during the Vietnam War. There are 2 military bunkers near the Ba Đình Square, of which both of them are nuclear proof. There are also a few thousands bunkers (both public and private), capable of containing about 900,000 people (according to the source which I gave), which allows about 35-45% survived the nuclear attack after 10 years (which is 1993, during that time the people have to deal with worsening conditions) (the population should be about 1.5 to 2 million). There would be economic recovery using the mass industrialization and reconstruction of old French-oriented streets and then a further of annexation of Hà Tây to Hanoi to bolstered the process (in OTL this was occurred in 2008). Dirigisme would be introduced as a way to improve the national economy as a result and continued to this day. 1234chernobyl (talk)

Please be careful not to go too far in the other direction. The entire world is less industrialized because of the disasters. Without a global economy, mass industrialization would have to focus on things that could be consumed locally or traded within a relatively small region, and the economy is unlikely to surpass where it was in the 80s. False Dmitri (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Necroposting but whatever, my problem with Vietnam as it stands is that Hanoi wouldn't have enough time to get everyone in the bunkers. I'd argue the entirety of Hanoi and a good chunk of the entire Vietnamese Communist leadership would be wiped out by a strike on Hanoi. I am unsure whether keeping the Socialist Republic of Vietnam would truly work without giving more reforms and more of a turn to democracy. I'd argue that while we might not see a revolution in Vietnam, we should definitely still see some sort of concession where the Communists don't just regain power later on.      Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Cuba (1983: Doomsday)

Though I have posted on the talk page of the article my intent to adopt this page, I am starting a discussion here to discuss my intent with the article. I am currently aiming to re-examine the course of events of Doomsday and thereafter I find somewhat questionable. Namely I am very skeptical that the United States would launch a nuclear attack on Santiago de Cuba, I am of the opinion that if Ronald Reagan can escape New York City of all places, it is not out of the question that Fidel Castro, a man who was consistently ahead of the game in terms of his own survival, would be able to at least get to safety within Havana.

In finding out where exactly Fidel was on Doomsday, I coincidentally found out where most of his cabinet was: attending a meeting about the situation in Grenada. Since most pages that mention Cuba detail that it is one of the few communist countries that survived Doomsday, we can assume they didn't all die with him. There are surely any number of bunkers within or near Havana which could have safely housed the cabinet, but I find the most convincing location to be the Hotel Nacional de Cuba, which held a fallout bunker in the caves under its historic facade. The location had been such a fortification during the Cuban Missile Crisis and had a long history of being a strong point of defense in Havana. Even if Havana were hit, this bunker most likely would have protected them. There are other locations they could have fallen back to.

The Cubans most certainly had advanced warning a nuclear war was breaking out. The timeline established a gap of roughly half an hour between when the faulty launch detection took place and when the first detected warheads should have hit the USSR. Reagan was able to contact the President of Mexico about the situation in this time. This is a 30-minute period where Russia was absolutely certain the US had launched first, meaning the Soviet embassy at Cuba would have told Cuba that there were nukes coming before they were actually coming. Furthermore, Cuba would be very low on the to-do list if nuclear weapons were even used against Cuba.

So now let's talk about what actually would be hit. Santiago de Cuba is, in my opinion, out of the question since the American base at Guantanamo is right there and they would effectively be nuking their own people. It is, however, noted to have been hit in other articles… but was somehow able to mount an attack on American forces at Guantanamo. Discussion on Discord seems to indicate the vast majority of editors here are also skeptical that the US would hit Santiago de Cuba. If allowed, I would move to retcon the destruction of Santiago de Cuba altogether.

Havana is another story. I question the impetus to nuke Havana given the lack of nuclear capabilities of Cuba, and doing so would likely only galvanize a foreign threat as the situation goes from bad to worse. That said, it is possible the US would take the opportunity to remove Cuba as a threat pre-emptively. Whether or not one would reason the likelihood of the Cuban government already being in secure locations is another question. In the interest of protecting its citizens in Florida, the US would avoid large-scale warhead detonation. Nuking even Havana seems more trouble than it's worth. If it were hit, I anticipate it would be done with a short-range ballistic missile such as the W-76, which had a payload of about 100 kt.

Once I've taken a look at Doomsday, I want to examine Cuban reactions to Doomsday and fill in the history between then and now, which is looking a little sparse on the nation page. This includes the Cuban government possibly still being moved to avoid radiation from the United States for some time, rebellions, and what happens to the troops in Angola.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 10:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

This was a global nuclear war and the US would absolutely nuke Havana if not simply to destroy a major communist city, but even if the communist regime survived, to destroy the command and control center. The Russians nuked cities down to 50,000 people without much strategic purpose (see Wilkes-Barre).

If Havana was hit by one warhead from a Minuteman III ICBM, which was a 300 KT W-87 warhead, the radiation would pass about 10-20 miles offshore of the Florida Keys.

I think the US would recognize that the Cubans would invade Guantanamo Bay as WWIII started, so hitting Santiago de Cuba would be a way to mitigate the risk of an invasion. Based off air currents, the radiation would blow west, away from Guantanamo Bay.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

10-20 miles off the coast is something I wouldn't want to risk if I were launching missiles at Cuba. I absolutely understand wanting to remove a potential command center but there are smaller bombs that would achieve that without sending that much radiation north. That's basically creating an area north of Cuba which would be incredibly dangerous to send any ships through, effectively creating a bottleneck in the Gulf of Mexico that would hinder rescue missions (which I would assume the United States government would plan on doing at that point).

What would be the plan for any EMP affecting evacuation of Guantanamo Bay? Again, it seems like the US would be harming itself entirely too much here. The fleet there canonically made it out. It makes more sense to evacuate with fully-working equipment and ships than it does to fry important equipment and jeopardize any possibility of escaping Guantanamo... to deter an attack on Guantanamo Bay. Ships fried by EMP could be repaired by Cuba, which I know the US wouldn't want. Again, a small-yield warhead at most makes sense here, but a 500 kt warhead? There are better targets for those.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim

Havana would be the target of an ICBM, virtually all American SLBM’s and IRBM’s were in the Pacific or Europe. One Minuteman III carried three W78 330-350 kT warheads, likely two hit Havana and one hit Santiago. Did the navy have any warships stationed at Guantanamo Bay Naval Station?

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Upon discussing this in discord with Ben and after considering what's been written here, I am more than willing to accept Havana and Santiago de Cuba as having been hit with nuclear bombs. However, general consensus in discord is that yes, Fidel would most likely survive. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 06:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

[San Julián Air Base] should be nuked..Aluminium bronze hair time? (talk). 00:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Well you can see above that I'm apprehensive about what's already been nuked actually being nuked. This third target's a definite no from me. Doesn't appear that this would be worth the nuclear bomb. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 01:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Just to note: Havana is 142 miles or 229 kilometers from the Florida Keys. Even if it was nuked, it wouldn't damage Florida at all. Additionally, Florida Keys Naval Air Station was destroyed as well, so that somewhat negates the concerns.

I don't think that airbase would be nuked. When I looked it up, as of OTL, it has one squadron of MiG-23 ML fighters, however I am not sure if this is the case in 1983 (I dug around and came up empty handed).

While the squadron would probably be deployed to protect Havana, I don't think Cuba would be in any position to attack the United States, even if it was completely unscathed on Doomsday. It's navy lacked troop landing ships and the armed forces aren't very large.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


Both Cabañas (HQ Western Command) – San Julián Air Base (MUSJ) and Holguín (HQ Eastern Command) – Frank País Airport (MUHG) could be hit with 10kt or 15kt tactical devices, causing less radiation and collateral damage than a 300kt or 100kt ICBM warhead. Tor0llis' trellis. 21:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

See my post below Fundamental Issues in the header marked: Doomsday, regarding nuclear weapon usage on Doomsday. I expand on warhead power, deployment methods, and range. From my research the smallest warhead in the US arsenal that would hit the facilities would be the W62 170kt warhead on the Minuteman III, which could carry up to three warheads. Smaller weapons were much shorter range and were deployed primarily in Europe and some in Japan or Korea for usage against conventional enemy formations, primarily armor, as in Europe, the USSR had a significantly larger, and in some aspects, superior, armored division, or as area denial weapons to funnel the enemy into a specific region to engage with conventional weapons.

Though, maybe one or two B-52 bombers or other strike aircraft were launched towards Cuba with W57 and B61 tactical nuclear weapons specifically to target the air bases? The W57 has a yield from 5 to 20 kt depending on the model, while the B61 has a yield from 0.3 to 400 kt, depending on the configuration.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Jefferson

I don't think this country will be a candidate for reunification with the USA. It recently suffered major political upheaval and violence. The US is much inclined to work to get stable countries to reunify. The international relations section is unrealistic as well. While the ANZC and SAC were propping up the economy of the MSP to prevent it from collapsing, it is very clear that the two powers limited their actual involvement in the country's politics. If the two organizations (or the LoN) saw the Municipal States headed for authoritarianism, they would absolutely consider intervening.

Given the arrangement of the Municipal States, I'm not surprised the regime would collapse. But I don't think reorganization would occur this quick and I could see the United States and Victoria both intervening to prevent the country from collapsing. The sides in the civil war are illogical. If you look at their alignment, both sides are a mix of gangs, centrists, authoritarians, and libertarians with no clear ideological separation.

Additionally, I don't see the victors actually winning. The Civil Rights Party and police force would have most of the guns. In this post-Doomsday isolated scenario, the small towns and Jefferson Party would absolutely lose.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

This is of a different sort from other reviews because this is some quite recent content - it's not an old, abandoned page, it was approved a year or so ago. I don't think that anyone's claiming that Jefferson would join the USA next week, it's still a very unstable and precarious place. And I also don't think that the MSP regime would be capable of lasting indefinitely - something like that was going to either reform or fall, sooner or later the people were going to rise up against it. Could there be a way to adapt the current story in a way that you find more believable? False Dmitri (talk) 19:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it would be better to determine a logical arrangement between sides, with authoritarians and the gangs on one side and libertarians, centrists and community militias on the other side. The authoritarians and gangs more or less overwhelm the other side as they have most of the guns and the libertarian/centrist/militias fold rapidly, causing them to more or less only control a few communities and mainly operate as guerillas in the rural regions.

With the MSP being a pet project of the ANZC/SAC, the two powers want to prevent it from collapsing or an authoritarian government from taking over, so they begin to attempt to put together a joint occupation. But the distance and logistics (as I still don't think any nation in the world could perform an operation like the US is doing in the Middle East OTL) cause this to be deemed infeasible.

Instead, the two countries ask the US and Victoria to allow Commonwealth and South American troops to platform from the two countries and occupy the MSP as well as permission to operate two permanent bases, one in each country, to monitor the country long term.

In exchange, the two powers agree to repair and restore the HMVS Ressurection, the USS Independence, and the USS Saipan (I think all three vessels would require major overhauls to continue operating in the near future, all three vessels have been retired in OTL, the HMVS Ressurection is the former USS Kitty Hawk [Decommissioned: 12 May 2009, Striken: 20 October 2017], the USS Independence [Decommissioned: 30 September 1998, Striken: 8 March 2004], USS Saipan [Decommissioned: 25 April 2007, Scrapped: 28 October 2009]).

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Reading, Pennsylvania

I am beginning to do a more thorough dig through of Reading and have a few changes I would like to make:

  1. I have estimated the population, conservatively (in targeted regions, I have eliminated the entire population block, then in untargeted regions, I have reduced the population by between 40% and 70%, depending on the proximity to a targeted zone. It is substantially higher than what is on the page, at 308,418. I have estimated a population of 748,815 people. The region in 1980 in OTL has a population north of 1,795,000, excluding the populations in Harrisburg and the surrounding townships and boroughs, half of Montgomery County, all of Northampton County, and the population of Allentown (which would have survived Doomsday). This is 41.7% of the pre-Doomsday population, a figure that I believe is realistic. There is a lot of farming in this region and the four largest cities are Allentown, Lancaster, Lebanon, and Reading. Allentown being mostly depopulated would actually help this and I could see all four cities seeing major population loss until the mid-2000's as the government encourages people to move to farms.
  2. This region had some heavy industry at the time of Doomsday. Air Products and Chemicals in Allentown produces industrial gases and chemicals, Burle Industries in Lancaster produces vacuum tubes and related products, Carpenter Technologies in Reading designs and manufactures stainless steel alloys, Lukens Steel Company operated out of Coatesville, Norfolk Southern has a major rail yard in Allentown, PP&L is headquartered in Allentown and is a power generator and distributor (though it seems all it's generation assets are in other countries now, primarily Gettysburg and Susquehanna), RCA in Lancaster produces radios and televisions as well as electronic components, and Reading Railroad was headquartered in Reading but went defunct in 1976 being succeeded by ConRail headquartered in Philadelphia. I could see Reading Railroad being restored in this timeline and it controlling rail lines in Reading and Susquehanna.
  3. I found a three hydroelectric dams: Holtwood Dam, Safe Harbor Dam, and York Haven Dam that all span the Susquehanna between Dauphin, Lancaster, and York counties with a total generating capacity of 552 MW; one pumped storage facility: Muddy Run in Lancaster County with a generating capacity of 1,071 MW; and one coal plant, Cromby Generating Station in Chester County with a generating capacity of 118 MW (plant closed in 2011).

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Liecestershire

I think it's a bit implausable and crazy, the population is way higher than the offical 2010 levels to..Aluminium bronze hair time? (talk). 00:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Official population in 1983 was about 450,000, cannon on 2010 said 57,000 and that nation has 87,000 in 2018. Tortas' trellis. 22:05, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Wisconsin and Lakotah

Regarding two unrelated existing pages:

  1. Wisconsin - While Madison is not listed on the targets on the Doomsday page, I cannot find a reason why it wouldn't be a targeted city. It was the second largest city in Wisconsin (with 170,616 people as of the 1980 US Census) and was the capital city of the state. It was also home to the 128th Tactical Fighter Wing which flew the A-10 Thunderbolt II. I think it would be destroyed on Doomsday. That aside, I think the state government could survive and relocate to Beloit, Wisconsin.
  2. Lakotah - Porcupine is listed as the capital and largest city in the nation. Roughly, the nation would encompass all of western North and South Dakota and includes Dickinson, North Dakota (Population 1980 Census: 15,974); Williston, North Dakota (Population 1980 Census: 13,336); and Pierre, South Dakota (Population 1980 Census: 11,973). Porcupine, South Dakota is a Census Designated Place in OTL with a population of 793 in 1990. It is also located just north of the Nebraska state line, and I think the original creator saw that in 2007 OTL, Russell Means declared Porcupine the capital city of the Republic of Lakotah. Given the alternate timeline, I think the Republic of Lakotah would put its capital towards the center of its territory, either in Fort Yates, North Dakota which is the OTL headquarters of the Standing Rock Reservation (Population 1980 Census: 771) or in Eagle Butte, South Dakota which is the largest city on the Cheyenne River Reservation (Population 1980 Census: 435). Both are near the center of the western part of North and South Dakota.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

American Provisional Administration

The early content on the APA makes not a ton of sense in light of what was written subsequently about it, as well as what would be the likely effects of a global nuclear war in North America. Daesunglim opened a review of the page and has a new proposal outlined at Talk: American Provisional Administration (1983: Doomsday). False Dmitri (talk) 01:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Military of the Celtic Alliance

We should reevaluate the Celtic Alliance military page. I don't think it is completely logical compared to what equipment the Irish Defense Force had in its inventory in 1983. It seems the original creators just transplanted British equipment and reduced the quantity of units available.

I think the Army would still use the AML 90 (operated 20 in 1975, retired in 2013 OTL) and Panhard AML 60-7HB (operated 16 in 1975, retired in 2013 OTL) armoured scout cars as well as the Scorpion Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle (operated 12 by 1982, retired in 2017 OTL). All three vehicles would be very useful in the post-Doomsday world especially as the Celtic Defence Force occupied Scotland and Wales, where heavy armored vehicles are probably excessive and lighter armored vehicles would provide better mobility and superior armor and firepower than their opponents could field.

I think the Air Force would continue to operate the Cessna FR172H (they fielded seven since 1972 which were retired in 2019) as basic trainers and liason aircraft, Beechcraft Super King Air 200T (I am not sure how many they fielded though it appears they were in service prior to 1983) as multi-engine trainers and light transport, SIAI-Marchetti SF-260D and SF-260WE Warrior (ten in service since 1977) as advanced trainers and light attack aircraft, and the Aérospatiale Alouette III helicopters (eight in service since 1974, retired in 2007 OTL) as light utility helicopters.

The Navy doesn't seem super logical. It lacks support ships such as fleet tenders, replenishment oilers, or ammunition and equipment ships. It also lacks inshore and offshore patrol vessels that I think would be crucial for the country.

I'm also not sure: how realistic is it for the Celtic Navy to operate carriers? The country has a population of around 5.5 to 6 million people. In OTL, Australia is the smallest nation to operate an aircraft carrier with a population of around 24 to 25 million people. I think it might be more plausible for the country to operate a Landing Helicopter Dock ship, as it can function as a light carrier, but has a well deck and is capable of amphibious warfare operations.

I think the Celtic Navy would be composed of mainly offshore and inshore patrol vessels with one landing helicopter dock ship, one landing platform dock ship, three or four destroyers or frigates, two submarines, and two fleet replenishment vessels. So the Navy could operate two small naval task forces if necessary, but it would be better suited to a single engagement.

In 1983, the Irish Navy operated three Ton-class minesweepers and four Emer-class offshore patrol vessels. The navy was very small and functioned more along the lines of a Coast Guard (which continues to this day in OTL), so I think we need to be careful to keep it realistic given the population and industrial capabilities.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

A few British items may have also bin integrated from remoter CA held rural Scotland. Tortas' trellis. 22:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Second Sicily War

The rewrite being done needs some modifications and adjustments to correct continuity problems.

  1. Under the belligerents section, the incorrect flag for the Atlantic Defense Community is being used. The page has the NATO flag on it. Additionally, in a few subsections, the ADC name is replaced with Atlantic Defense Organization, which should be corrected.
  2. Under the belligerents section, in the ADC Coaltion members list it has the United Kingdom listed, this should be corrected to the Celtic Alliance. Supported by shows Ireland and Australasia which are not countries in this timeline.
  • The ANZC has been presented as being neutral in the conflict and sent the ANZC Commonwealth to Malta to secure the trade corridor. I don't think the SAC or WAU would be involved in this conflict as they would view it as a European affair. The only involvement from the SAC would be potentially sending ships to support the ANZC in defending the Mediterranean Trade Passage. I could see the WAU being a bit more interested in getting involved given that Tunisia is in Africa and the group is interested in African affairs.
  1. Sweden should probably be replaced by the Nordic Union. Additionally, I think the original timeline arrangement where the Nordic Union, North Germany, Spain, and Greece focused on Sicily and Canada and the Celtic Alliance focused on Saguenay and Superior was more logical.
  2. Superior was tied up in the Saguenay War and lacks the means to deploy troops or send supplies. It should not be listed in the Supported By section for Sicily.
  3. These troops numbers, frankly, seem ridiculous and unsustainable. Sicily has a population in 2020 just under 16 million people. In 2009, it would not be able to field over 800,000 people in its armed forces, even comparing it to the 2020 population (which is significant higher), is over 5% of its population and I think the 2009 population was signficantly lower, so we might be closer to 8-10% of its population being deployed.
  4. I do find the prospect of potential Turkish involvement to be interesting. With Greece tied up in the west fighting Sicily, that could be a causi belli for Turkey to attack eastern Greece in an attempt to liberate territory the nation still claims. However, I don't know how successful the ADC would be at fighting on what is essentially three or four fronts (Spain, Tunisia, Greece, and possibly Turkey).
  5. We should also consider what Israel's and Egypt's involvement would be, especially if we go throwing Turkey into the mix.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:25, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah that's a few mistakes on my part because i just forget to upload that page honestly, i did that when there were talks about restoring Ireland so i did that and for support i mean mostly diplomatic support, but i can see some nations like Ghana sending out aid to fighters in Libya and in Tunisia against the regime. Same thing for Superior, who will just support Sicily via diplomatic means because they see them as something that bother the ADC, about the ANZC and the SAC they will support the Northern Italian States because of their stance against the dictatorial regime of Italy and tbh i doubt that they will send their navy in the Mediterranean, if anything they will just instruct to take the longer route until the fighting is over.

Also about Turkey idk, right now is under some thoughts of reviews because Turkey would be a pretty bad place after the WW3 due to the fightings between Turkish and Soviet forces. Alex (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

No worries! Apologies, I think my comment came off as more critical than I intended it to, I was simply trying to make sure we resolved continuity issues before it was recanonized.

I don't think that we should really be including diplomatic support simply because in the ATL, I think that this will have much less of a meaningful impact than it does in OTL, mainly due to how Balkanized the entire world is. A small country sanctioning you probably doesn't have the impact as the nation being sanctioned can find an alternative supplier fairly easily. Especially with the variety of power blocs jostling for power. Even though Superior might be indirectly aware of the operations in Europe, I think it would be more concerned about securing its territory and Saguenay than potentially enraging the rest of the ADC by supporting a mafia state.

While Superior fights with Canada, it is over territorial integrity versus freedom of association compared to Sicily, which is essentially acting like a rogue state. Under different circumstances I think that Canada and Superior would be allies while I don't see Sicily with the mafia government ever allying with any of the ADC (though with a democratic government would be a different story).

I believe Superior would recognize that siding with a bad actor would just increase global criticism and could trigger surrounding nations to get more involved against it (especially North Pennsylvania and Niagara Falls which, working in tandem probably could fight Superior to a standstill). It may also have served as a catalyst for Reading, State College, and Susquehanna to get more involved as all three nations remain out of the fight due to the perception that it is more of a territorial dispute than a fight against a rogue or bad actor nation. Though all three countries also have more of a pro-Canada leaning for political and economic reasons moreso than altruistic reasons.

While I still argue Superior should have been more or less obliterated by Canada, it absolutely would have doomed the nation if multiple nations declared war on Superior and had the capabilities to attack the mainland of the nation (which a unified Pennsylvania would have been able to do).

Regarding Turkey, that's fair, but I think the government would also recognize that it was an opportunity and if they decided to attempt to seize the territory later it could be fighting the ADC on its own. I think Turkey is stronger than we give it credit for and while the Mediterranean Defense League didn't come into effect until around the same time the Second Sicily War ended, the members of it would certainly have military ties prior to that.

Another point is that the Sultan of Turkey alone outnumbers Greece in population 6.9 to 1. Even if The Greek military was more advanced, I would think Turkey would be able to field significantly more personnel, which in this war would likely tip the scales. Compared to the ADC, I think Turkey would have nearly equitable population to the entire organization.

A Macedonia/Turkey/Sicily alliance would have a population of over 58 million people and could field north of 620,000 soldiers between active duty in all branches in all three nations with an additional 520,000 in reserve (plus Sicily which is unclear from the nation page).

The nations focused on the Second Sicily War are Corsica, Genoa, Greece, the Nordic Union, North Germany, Portugal, Rif, San Marino, Spain, Subalpine Federation, Tuscany, and Venice. However, I think several nations in the Nordic Union (Finland, and the eastern members) would be focused on their own borders with the USSR, so the actual available population would be closer to just north of 37.5 million people. NATO Brigades are structured with between 3,200 and 5,500 soldiers per brigade, which I assume the ADC would continue to uphold. The ADC maintains six brigades and I assume that initially three would respond: Azores, Mainland, and Mediterranean, which would at most give the ADC 16,500 personnel plus an additional 5,200 soldiers from the Nordic Union, and between the armed forces of the members have probably in the neighborhood of 450,000 active duty and another 300,000 reservists.

Daeseunglim (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

United Communities

Does anyone have a problem if I start fleshing out this page more? Obviously if other members don’t agree with all my changes or have ideas of their own, I would be happy for the input! But I feel this page is heavily lacking on information outside of plans to reclaim ruined cities and a list of members.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:06, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

It would be a good idea.Thameside (talk) 00:32, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I also am adjusting the cleanup/resettlement dates for the cities as listed on the United Communities page as I find the timeline as it stands to be far too optimistic. I think cleanup will last years and with reconstruction, it will be well over a decade. While Japan only took around 2 years to repair and begin resettling Hiroshima and Nagasaki after World War II, the US provided aid and the weapons that struck the cities were magnitudes in size smaller smaller than those that would have struck the cities listed on Doomsday. Additionally, Chicago and Philadelphia were likely struck by multiple warheads.

I also think jurisdiction will hamper efforts to rebuild. Canada, London, and Niagara Falls will most certainly have competing claims on Hamilton; Kentucky and Superior will likely compete for Chicago; North Pennsylvania and Toledo will probably compete for Cleveland; Reading and State College dispute Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh; and the Outer Lands, Plymouth, and Vermont have a dispute over Boston.

Another point of consideration is that, while trade and industrial output is picking up for the Great Lakes region, it is still significantly lower than post-WWII Japan and the region lacks support that the US and other governments likely provided to Japan after WWII ended.

I think that Cleveland and Hamilton will have cleanup and reconstruction occurring well into 2030 and will only see resettlement in the early 2030’s. Reading and Susquehanna are beginning to prepare for cleanup in Harrisburg and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton with training occurring at Susquehanna Steam Electric Station, however the work does not have a start date. I think North Pennsylvania will still be completing work in Erie and Niagara Falls is still working in the Buffalo area.

Daeseunglim (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Confederation of African Marxist Countries Military

Can someone fix this page?

Some of these aircraft don’t exist (namely: the MiG-20 and MiG-24), Ethiopia only had eight C-119 Flying Boxcar aircraft, acquired in 1970 and 1971. Two additional aircraft were acquired from Belgium in 1972 but were stripped for parts to repair the other aircraft.

The SU-25 Grach didn’t enter service in Ethiopia until 2000 in OTL.

I think that these nations will struggle to maintain that number of aircraft, as well as the mix of American, British, Italian, and Soviet designed aircraft which will further complicate maintenance. I believe that all the Canberra bombers, C-47 Skytrain, C-54 Skymaster, and C-119 Boxcar cargo transports, F-86 Sabre fighters, and T-33 Shooting Star trainers would be retired as parts failed and replacement would probably become more of a challenge.

I strongly doubt the USS Orca seaplane tender could be converted to an aircraft carrier as the ship was 310 feet long and only had a displacement of 2,800 tons fully loaded. It was launched in 1942 and commissioned in 1944, in OTL, the ship was decommissioned in 1991 and scrapped two years later.

The shortest operating carrier in OTL is the HTMS Chakri Naruebet at 599.2 feet with a 571 foot long flight deck and displaces 11,486 tons fully loaded. The ship was designed to carry up to six AV-8S Matador V/STOL attack aircraft and four helicopters with deck space for up to fourteen additional helicopters, though the below deck hanger can only accommodate ten aircraft.

By this year, the ship would be 80 years old and I doubt it would be serviceable. I also question how useful a carrier would be to the CAMC, I honestly don’t think they would have much use for one. The alliance seems mostly active in the Horn of Africa and might extend to North Africa. Carriers are used for power projection and I don’t see the organization involved in this. I think Tank Landing Ships or Amphibious Transport Docks would be a more useful vessel in this region.

Regarding ground equipment, I don’t have any issues.

Daeseunglim (talk) 19:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Military of North Pennsylvania

I have begun reviewing the North Penn military page. I am going to set it up in a similar manner to how the page I created for Susquehanna reads. Regarding equipment, scope, etc, please feel free to add input as I make changes!

I am consolidating it into the North Pennsylvania Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, and State Guard.

The Army will utilize the M16 assault rifle, C1 battle rifle, M60 machine gun, M2 machine gun, C3 howitzer, and L16 mortar. As far as vehicles, it will have Jeep Raiders, M38 Jeep utility vehicles, M35 2-1/2 ton truck, M54 5 ton truck, AVGP Cougar light armored vehicle, AVGP Grizzly armored personnel carrier, AVGP Husky armored recovery vehicle, M113 armored personnel carrier, and the M109 howitzer.

The Coast Guard would operate two offshore patrol vessels, three inshore patrol vessels, one logistic vessel, and one landing craft.

The Air Force would operate four CH-135 Twin Huey utility helicopters, three DHC-3 Otter utility planes, and possibly a few maritime patrol aircraft but I’m not sure what plane it would be.

Daeseunglim (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Doomsday in the UK

Thameside has proposed a new master list for UK targets. This is an extremely important next step as we look to clean up content related to Britain, which is probably the most messy and inconsistent body of lore in the whole timeline, as many people have pointed out over the last year. The list is also huge, too huge for this page. Fortunately Thameside also posted it to Talk: Doomsday in the United Kingdom (1983: Doomsday), so I have archived the section from here. Discussion can continue both here and on the other page. False Dmitri (talk) 05:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Sapmi

The article describes a movement for independence among the Sámi people in the Murmansk region in 1984. The problem is that the population of Sámi people in Russia was less than 2000 people at the time. The article seems not to realize this, and my impression is that nobody involved at the time did the research to find this out. The republic's immediate surroundings are just a wasteland, so we can mark this obsolete without any cascading effects on the rest of the region. False Dmitri (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, for this one it seems barely any effort was put into the research or the writing. It even had the wrong name for a good month and a half after creation. No big loss and one less moving part to think about. FP (talk) 00:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

For the record, it was called "Sampi". False Dmitri (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Dragon State and Nanchang

There are two issues with this article the Dragon State:

  1. The general who is credited for starting the nation (and all the other leaders) are completely fictional (which goes against the general rules for this timeline).
  2. While some sort of totalitarian government is possible, the system of keeping "order" in this land is just awfully unrealistic (in my opinion to the point of ASB), and has never been used in history.

I think this article needs to be rewritten, if not marked obsolete. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 10:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  1. .

One thing to note, is that I think we will start having to make up people as even people born on doomsday will be in their upper 30’s, and with the butterfly effect, anyone born after Doomsday won’t exist.

If we start getting politicians in their 20’s to mid-30’s we need to start making people up.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the people who survived doomsday have had children and grandchildren by different people, so basically those under 40 are most likely to be (realistic) fictional people in badly nuked nations. Thameside (talk) 01:03, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Weren't there notable (real) survivors in the area? --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 02:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Dragon State and Nanchung, its sister state, suffer from... extremely bad shit. An overall review of Dragon State would overall need a relooking at China and how it works TTL. Re: notable survivors, it's hard to gauge that given that it's the PRC.

     Cthulhu.jpg     Wolf hd by arma3lonewolf-d8m9rto.jpg   Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  12:05, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I think it's time to do away with both. However, how does this impact the greater China area in TTL? I'm curious. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

CARICOM

We should reevaluate the members of CARICOM, several of the countries are members of the CSTO and openly communist or at least strongly support Socialist Siberia, which I think other members would be strongly opposed to.

I honestly think that this would be enough of a barrier to keep some of the countries mentioned from joining. Instead, I see communist and socialist nations in the region unifying into an organization that acts as a counterweight to CARICOM, maybe named Latin American Socialist Organization (abbreviated LASO). However by 2020 I could see relations being more nominal.

I think CARICOM would have the following members:

And I think LASO would have the following members:

Thoughts? I just don’t find it realistic even 40 years after Doomsday for these nations to have reconciled to a point that they would join CARICOM.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

USA League of Nations Membership

I cannot imagine the USA ever getting League membership, I believe the USSR would block the country simply to sideline the country, as it would probably blame America for WWIII (no matter the truth). I think this policy would extend to most American survivor states outside of the ones who are vehemently anti-American like Virginia.

This is where I think the United Communities comes into play. I think it is likely that the UC expands to encompass most nations who are rejected by the LoN and becomes similar to the modern UN and Unrecognized Nations and Peoples Organization.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry that no one responded. I wasn't ignoring the post, I was thinking long and hard about it. I don't think that the rest of the world would be willing to give into such a demand, despite the LoN's structure. Plenty of people around the world blame the Soviets, or both sides equally, for the war. Certainly they can give a long list of Soviet atrocities that were not strategically necessary, during the nuclear exchange and no doubt during the fighting that followed it. If Siberia really did dig in and refuse to allow the USA to join the League, I think that there would be many members threatening to simply withdraw their membership, and if Siberia persevered, enough would join the movement that it could cripple the League. I think that a crisis over American membership is absolutely plausible, but the world community would not allow the USSR to unilaterally and permanently exclude it.
Or else, hey, we're the ones writing this timeline. Maybe a crisis over US membership does cause the LoN to collapse. It's certainly a potential storyline, and a very interesting one. False Dmitri (talk) 21:41, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

No worries! I know this time of year can be busy as well!

I think the LoN High Council would likely split on the issue with the ANZC, Canada, and Nordic Union supporting American admission; the USSR and Brazil opposing it; and Nigeria taking a neutral stance. I think the USSR would likely get significant support from neutral nations hit by NATO nukes, South America, parts of Africa, and most of Asia, while the USA would get support from most of the APAC region, parts of Africa, and Europe.

I don't see it fracturing the LoN, but I could see it resulting in a major overhaul of the veto power of the LoN High Council with the General Assembly pushing for changes as the High Council has denied many nations valid entry solely on political reasons. Instead it is altered that requires at majority of the High Council or a 4+1 (4 members plus the Secretary General) to deny a candidate membership and a 66% majority of the General Assembly can override the Security Council.

We should probably evaluate the role of the United Communities in the long term. While the world is still a few decades behind OTL, I think it is fair that air travel and global communications are rapidly improving and global communications will likely reach a 2000's level by the mid-2020's and air travel will reach a 1980's level by the mid-2030's. Maybe the United Communities ends up being absorbed into the League of Nations sometime in the next 10-20 years or becomes a more regional organization similar to the OTL European Union.

Daeseunglim (talk) 21:43, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Hey Daesunglim! In regards to the Vetoing of the USA constantly being a problem I propose two potential solutions. One which I feel may be detrimental to the canon is to scrap the veto of admissions of nations into the league, which personally I think is not the way to go but thought I would put it here for completeness. The other which I hope to begin implementing is a structural change to the LoN High Council. I've been discussing with others and we thought it not useful to have Continental High Commissions, for practical and TL reasons. Instead we proposed 12 Regional High Commissions situated about the world representing different regional groups. This allows potentially to remove Siberia from the veto equation all together or should they be the current commissioner and try to veto I propose that the Gen. Sec. has the ability to strike down any veto they see fit though they themselves will not have power to veto decisions. I hope this helps and allows the USA to finally be involved in the League of Nations! Trainor90 (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Doomsday

Something I would like to point out:

Tactical nuclear weapons were designed for short range use against enemy military formations as an alternative to large scale conventional engagement. Tactical nuclear weapons are typically locally deployed by artillery and strike aircraft.

Theatre or intermediate range nuclear weapons were designed for theatre and regional usage against military and civilian targets. Most are deployed by intermediate range ballistic missiles or tactical bombers

Intercontinental nuclear weapons were designed for long range use against military and civilian targets. Most intercontinental nuclear weapons are deployed by long range bombers or intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Anything outside of Eastern and Central Europe would likely not be struck by tactical nuclear weapons. Anything out of Europe and northern China, Korea, and the Middle East would not be hit by theatre or intermediate range weapons. North America, Oceania, and any other long range targets would only be hit by ICBM's.

Conversely, in the USSR, anything west of the Ural Mountains would likely be only hit by ICBM's. Please note, I am ignoring any nuclear weapons deployed as defensive anti-bomber weapons (there were still Nike Hercules air defense missiles were deployed in Europe, however I do not know if they were armed with W-31 nuclear warheads or T-45-HE high explosive warheads).

During the Cold War, in Europe, the USSR deployed the R-14 Chusovaya (carrying one 1Mt warhead with a range of up to 3,700 km) and the RSD-10 Pioneer (carrying three 150kt warheads with a range of up to 5,500 km). The most common Soviet ICBM were 308 R-36MUTTKh (each carrying up to ten 550-750kt warheads with a range of 10,200 km to 16,000 km), however they were mainly designed to target and destroy US ICBM's in their silos. They also operated 360 UR-100 (carrying six 400kt warheads with a range of up to 10,000 km), the RSM-50 (carrying three 500kt warheads with a range of up to 6,500 km).

I'm stating this as several articles indicate that strategic targets in the US and the UK were hit by tactical nuclear weapons when, in reality they would likely be struck by smaller ICBM's or IRBM's, in Europe likely a 150kt warhead and in North America likely a 400kt warhead).

Daeseunglim (talk) 03:17, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Saguenay War

One point that I think gets glossed over way too much regarding the end of the Saguenay War:

Under the section marked The Investigations, it states that League of Nations found that Saguenay and Superior were funding and actively assisting the Lawrence Raiders. I think this action would infuriate the survivor states in Pennsylvania, New York, the New England states, and Ontario. The Lawrence Raiders are indicated to be a major contributing factor to trade and diplomacy being hindered between Canada and Europe and this part of the former USA/Canada. Especially considering most of the nations in the region are neutral or only fighting against the raiders and uninvolved in the war itself.

Information showing two nations were actively supporting the efforts would probably cause every single one to cut off diplomatic recognition and trade to Saguenay and Superior. Something to keep in mind is that the Treaty of Manchester is only between Canada, Saguenay, and Superior with Vermont and Aroostook being requested to support long term counter raider operations. We should probably look into the long term repercussions of this revelation, as I state above, I think this impact is glossed over heavily.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS

Archive 1 | Archive 2

Adoption of Cambodia

Hello! I am user HumplebyH and seek to expand upon the article for Cambodia, and adopt it. I plan to adress the war between Vietnam and Cambodia, in which I believe the desolate Cambodian nation would struggle amidst a stalemate. I seek to expand upon the politics and economy of Cambodia especially in regards to the Khmer Rouge collapsing. I would adress the Vietnamese People's republic of Kampuchea taking power, and oversee information in regards to it's collape and destabilisation. I hope to cover a possible civil war in the region and expand fully on the nation's history. I am aware the page is up for adoption but seek to confirm that I may edit it. HumplebyH (talk) 12:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, i'm Alex, a member of the 1983: Doomsday community and caretaker of few pages, i want to inform you that Vietnam is under the supervision of Chernobyl, he did massive changes to Vietnam for removing some of the most stupid decisions like a completeley overthrow against the regime of Hanoi, and there also some issues with the Vietnamese-Cambodian War. So i highly suggest to leave a comment on his talk page in order to solve the issue between the two of you and if you have Discord you are more then welcome in your AH server, where we talk about 1983DD too. Alex (talk) 15:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Adoption of Mayotte

Hello! After adopting (and fixing/editing) Reunion I am hoping to adopt another page made by Mscoree which also needs a lot of help, Mayotte. Like Reunion it is pretty outdated and could use a lot of help and editing. Hope I can adopt Mayotte! User:I need to learn human interaction (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Adopting State College

I am still working through Reading, but I would also like to adopt State College and flesh out that article significantly more, as well as expand on its relationship with the other Pennsylvanian survivor states.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Adoption of New York

Hello I would like to adopt the republic of New York . Currently it is a stub and I would like to add more info about the government and the new capital city New Albany also the original creator hasn’t done anything with it in years so I hope this won’t be an issue I hope you will consider my request Tj7820 (talk) 02:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

We should also work to coordinate foreign relations between New York and Pennsylvanian survivor states. The Republic of New York controls the northern reaches of some of the Northern Tier counties claimed by State College and Susquehanna.

According to canon, Susquehanna has been in contact with New York since the early 2000’s and I assume State College would be the same timeframe.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes that sounds very good and I will make sure that I talk to you about the relationship between New York and Pennsylvania because there has been very little information about New York’s relationship with Pennsylvania in the article Tj7820 (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Adopting Thailand

Abaaaa068 has written some content for Thailand, including adding to the country profile and creating two pages. I've invited them to leave a message in this section to make the adoption official. False Dmitri (talk) 19:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

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