Talk: 1983: Doomsday/Former Proposals 21

Kerr

Page dealing with a survivor state mentioned in the North Carolina article. Survivor state exists around Kerr Lake. Critique appreciated. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 16:18, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Objections to gradding this?

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig (Dammit, Guns!) 01:24, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

I have a bunch on the talk page of this article, that I made when Crim resurrected the thing. He hasn't so much as glanced at the article since.

So yes, objections to graduation.

Lordganon (talk) 02:32, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

...And once again, going nowhere. Objections to marking it obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 14:29, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

New London

Figured it was time to start this page, give me couple of days to get the bare bones in then comments and suggestions will be greatly recieved.--Smoggy80 17:19, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Took longer than expected, but the bare bones of an article are in, i've tried to link it to the already canon information on the UK and Celtic Alliance pages. Any suggestions greatly recieved--Smoggy80 20:08, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

I've spent all morning creating a gnarly image of a massive refugee camp - you better like it on the article, Smogs! Feg 09:57, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

All I can say about that picture is fantasic! any more you want to add, feel free!--Smoggy80 15:35, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

...Suppose this is more or less done as it is going to get for now. Objections to stubgrad? Lordganon (talk) 20:02, December 30, 2014 (UTC)

How do, newbie signing in. Having read 1983 for a while, and being a Brit, I wanted to contribute and expand on the destruction of London. I was wondering if I could write-up an expedition to the capital based on this great info? Cheers! TychoMagneticAnomaly (talk) 13:59, January 7, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. See notes left on said page~ Lordganon (talk) 15:12, January 13, 2015

Southern Indiana

Article by Sunkist. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

So what are we doing with this? It's pretty obvious that Sun's more or less abandoned it. Should we obsolete it? Or what? Lordganon 22:48, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Anything done with it has to tie into Kentucky. I could adopt this, as part of my proposal to flesh out the DDTL state of Indiana. BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

That would work well, though I'd talk to Zack about it first. Lordganon 05:30, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Has BrianD adopted this?--Smoggy80 15:04, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

More or less. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Given the amount of time this has been up for proposal as well as falling in line with canon, would there be any objections to graduating this as a stub? Arstar talk 04:46, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Problem is, Arstar, that it's not internally consistent, and doesn't match the Kentucky page. Fairly minor repair work, all told, but it does need to be done, you know? Haven't got around to brute-forcing it through myself, but power to you if you want to. Lordganon (talk) 16:19, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Slimmed it down, threw out inaccuracies. Will grad as stub. Arstar talk 16:17, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Hubei

A small isolationist state located in western Hubei. Is currently attempting contact with Jiangsu, the ROC, Guangxi, Macau, Yunna, and Tibet. All necessary info in link.

Canuck2012 22:40, June 10, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

I have a whole host of objections to this listed on its pages. Lordganon 10:22, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Any problems with it anymore? The Royal Guns (talk) 19:23, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it still gives them tech they wouldn't have. Lordganon (talk) 07:44, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

The tech seems to be gone. Objections? Arstar talk 02:54, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Aragon

New country in southern Catalonia, based on the town of Tortosa. Fed (talk) 19:46, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I feel that it's time to graduate AragonGoldwind1 (talk) 23:10, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

It's not ready yet. The article still holds inconsistencies, and needs a major cleanup. Lordganon (talk) 10:23, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Did the cleanup. Andreas.martonosy (talk) 17:33, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

That you did. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 10:59, May 29, 2015 (UTC)

Eight days since you've asked, Ganon... I think no one objects.

Andreas.martonosy (talk) 11:34, June 7, 2015 (UTC)

A whole month since I asked... will it get canonized? Andreas.martonosy (talk) 20:22, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Can we graduate this... LG said I'm good to go. AM, the King of the Banat (talk) 16:05, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Generations

A page that I am in the midst of creating on generations post-DD. Will flesh it out more after I am done with Black Sabbath. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

Any objections for stub? Arstar talk 02:47, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

2014 FIFA World Cup

This should be ready now, unless there's some more stuff that I still have to add. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 09:54, May 29, 2015 (UTC)

All righty then. Objections? Lordganon (talk) 11:44, May 29, 2015 (UTC)

Nice job Godfrey! Only question: those nations listed under North America are all in Central America. Is Central America a classification, or is it considered part of North America? Daeseunglim (talk)

I'm using FIFA's OTL regional confederations to classify these nations. All the nations listed as "North" America are only grouped that way because they're CONCACAF members OTL, which is composed of North and Central America as well as the Caribbean and some South American countries. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 07:44, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Something tells me that atl, there would be a movement to change that one. Lordganon (talk) 11:09, June 1, 2015 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I think it does have to be changed. But I don't know how to change it. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 06:40, June 2, 2015 (UTC)

Didn't say that the movement would be working at this point. Call it something that the 2018 Cup would have, as it would not have really been much of an issue for the 2010 Cup, and only brought to light for this one. Realistically, none of the teams north of Mexico would be likely to get in anyway - the strongest team would probably be Texas, imo.

Lordganon (talk) 11:46, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

What about Canada or Victoria? Also, many of the nations probably don't even have professional soccer. Daeseunglim (talk)

I'd say this is ready. Any more objections? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 13:43, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

I like it, it is well planned and though out! Daeseunglim (talk)

Republic of Southern Maine

This is late entry into the collection of survivor city-states in former Maine.  It is by a native Mainer user The.Brick.Battle.  It deserves some consideration, so I am putting it here.  Be nice, guys. SouthWriter (talk) 02:17, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

Guys I've been working on a new faction called the federal republic of Cumberland and I was thinking it could be a faction formed by Maine Governor Joseph E. Brennan and a group of 1,000 - 3,000 national guard and state police units in the Portland area specifically the Cumberland county area of Maine with the capital of the nation in Gray Maine. I think it's a plausible scenario especially if nobody new Cumberland exstited until at least 1990 because nobody knew the Conovy escaped south rather than north along with Governor Joseph E. Brennan. The.Brick.BattleThe.Brick.Battle (talk) 00:49, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

I have once again re-wrote my original artical about a republic of Maine into a Acadian Republic located on the islands and coastline near Mount Desert Island. It is not in a area already claimed by another faction and it's out of the way of both the Brunswick NAS and Bath Iron Works nuclear exsplosion's radiation path. Also I have I think made it more plausible and if not hopefully a admin or a fellow alternate historian can point out my mistake The.Brick.Battle (talk) 02:18, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Brick, as mostly a point of protocol, this and the original post above belong up under "Current Preposals."  The headline "...Republic Being Canonized" is incorrect with or without a question mark.  As I indicated earlier, to become canon, an article must first go through community discussion.  Please note that this list has grown quite long in the past few years.  The 1983:DD community has lost many of the "movers and shakers" that kept it alive, so this will probably be a long process for you.  SouthWriter (talk) 17:55, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Yes I know all this.... (sigh) But is this not under current proposals? The.Brick.Battle (talk) 22:37, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

No, this is under "Fundamental Issues."  Go to the guidelines for proposals located HERE. When you click on the link in the second paragraph in that section, it will bring you to the top of the proper section.  It is that section which you will need to "Edit" by adding your proposal at the bottom of the section.  After that, all discussion of that proposal will be located either there or on that talk page of the article itself.  This section is totally logjammed, but hopefully the activity will be noted by fellow editors (especially admins) and get some action.

Unfortunately, other new users have not read the guidelines, adding to the confusion.  The most recent proposals have been put at the bottom of THE PAGE, rather than the bottom of the section.  I don't consider new proposals "Fundamental Issues" and I doubt if other more active administrators do either.  Technically, this is "under" Current Proposals, but not at the "bottom of Talk:1983 Doomsday#Current Article Proposals" as intended.  Though placing things under "Fundamental Issues" gets attention, wavering from the guidelines means that attention is not altogether good.   96.37.245.57 20:39, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

Oops.  The above was from me, South.  The new formating for login is not working well for me. SouthWriter (talk) 02:05, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

Zimbabwe

A proposal by me and Oer, pretty much aim to make it into an article better suited to the DDverse compared to Caer's versions of Zimbabwe. Me and Oer have gone over a lot of the facts over a few months now and I think now would be the time to set up the article, with me having authority on most of the post-DD states of Southern Africa.  Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 15:02, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Ha! Beat me to the punch. I was planning to do it after the now completely restructured ICW.

           Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  20:15, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Seems to be more or less in line. Arstar talk 02:46, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Heh. Did not notice that they added to it. Would need to be a stub, though. Lordganon (talk) 12:59, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

Poor Knights of the Holy Trinity

Hey so I decided to create a Monastic State in Upstate New York in Ontario and Seneca Counties. I plan on expanding the country a bit in the future but I am interested in how their emergance would impact the current New York nations. So can you guys look it over a bit and tell me what I need to touch up. Appreciate it.Grantzu (talk) 03:36, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

1997 is a bit late- shoot for around 1991 I say.

I think some of these lands would have been nuked, but as long as it sticks to just the small towns, you'll be good.

Is the leader made up?

           The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  03:45, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah 1991 makes more sense than 1997. I don't believe Geneva or Canandaigua were nuked or in danger of being affected by the nukes. I do plan I having them expand in the future into Wayne and Moneroe Counties. Yes the leader is made up, is that not allowed?Grantzu (talk) 14:31, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. I recommend Dr. Shawn Van Scoy instead.

           The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  23:17, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Really don't see any way that this would be plausible, at least here and in this form. Only way that I can think of for something like this to work is if you had a operational monastery (and not a small one) act as a basis for survivors to gather around and a state from from it. Think of it as being something like Mount Angel in the Emberverse series.

Here doesn't really work so well, either - not really much fallout, given wind directions, but the Seneca Depot to the SE of this area got whacked. Fires would be a major problem. I would also imagine that the blast would create large waves on the lake it shares with Geneva, damaging things more.

Looks to me like that guy would have been too close to Rochester, Guns.

Lordganon (talk) 10:22, December 20, 2014 (UTC)

He might have survived. Rochester got whacked by a little un, and he wasn't that close.

           The center is collapsing, the right wing is retreating; situation excellent, am going on attack!  00:26, December 21, 2014 (UTC)

By my guess of where refugees would have both came from and went, his area - not that we can place him up there for sure - would have been overrun. Fires may be an issue too.

Past that, can't really prove he was there in 1983. Only site I can find that could likely tell is for that school board he works for, but it is down at this time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:45, December 21, 2014 (UTC)

Well they don't become a state until the civil government falls apart and that gave them a long time to grow. So the Poor Knights just took control after 6 years which is plenty of time to gain a name for themselves in their area and having people flack to them. I didn't use any curent monestaries because all of them have strict no killing rules. Plus people have a tendency to turn towards religion after a catastrophe so membership wouldn't be to hard to come by. Also Joshua Arsenio is a real person though I don't know his full name. The guys a religious hermit that lives near my village, he doesn't tell anybody his real name, doesn't have any information and just lives off the land or what people give him. though he did tell me he became a hermit in 1984 so I decided to use him with his consent. Fires would be a problem but it doesn't really effect the origins except maybe the civil government collapsing quicker.Grantzu (talk) 19:38, December 21, 2014 (UTC)

...You're not quite understanding what we're saying.

They aren't going to become a state. There is no basis for it. It has to evolve out of something - you can't just say that a random person started something out of the blue.

Monasteries don't tend to have rules like that, imo. Don't know where you got that idea. And more or less irrelevant - a place to gather around that is sort of secured is all that is needed. The Mount Angel example has Benedictine monks, for example. But any will do. There's even some good ones west and east of the Finger Lakes. They would also require some sort of defensive structure, which this area is also lacking.

Wrong - the amount of people that either get more religious or loose their faith in such disasters has been shown to more or less even out between the two.

Can't simply take your word on that guy existing. And it was more the current leader that was the problem.

Fires are a major issue. EMP takes out the power grid and vehicles, among other things. The ability to respond is limited in a lot of ways as a result, and fires in the EMP'ed areas are going to basically burn out - good luck stopping them. No water pressure = problems - and I doubt they have the needed equipment to use lake water on a real level. To make matters worse, the strike near here is an ammo place. What doesn't get instantly toasted is REALLY going to go badly.

It doesn't "cause a quicker collapse" - it ends the city in question.

Grantzu, this is a fair part of why we try to avoid our home areas.

Lordganon (talk) 12:08, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's not my home area it's the home area of Joshua. I live in Vermont but I saw Vermont was filled up so I decided to go to an area that I knew someone was there. I could move their home base somewhere away from Geneva it really doesn't matter. Also I would take a picture of Joshua to prove he is real but said no something about wanting to seperate himself from the corruption of modern technology. Also the Templars (they had plans but that ended after they were killed off),Teutonic Knights, Knights Hospitaller (control Malta), and the Livonian Order all were founded but a couple of people not necessarily clergy either. How about they become similar to the New York Rangers would that work out? I'm not trying to be difficult just trying to find a way this can work. Grantzu (talk) 15:11, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

You make it sound like you're from there, imo.

Go for an area where you don't know someone, will work better.

Picture would mean nothing.

Either they were already associated with the church, or became monks upon the founding of their orders. These orders tended to originate in church hospitals, fyi. Others descended from the earlier orders.

The atl NYR come into being as a militia group protecting a number of villages. What you're porposing really doesn't work in the same context.

Good, most don't even try to make things work.

Remember, with religious orders they do have a mission to preach. There is some danger in that, historically - they're allowed to defend themselves.

Find a monastery somewhere. The less peaceful the history of the order, the better. The Mount Angel bit has Benedictine monks, so maybe there as a starting point. But don't limit it to one aspect of Christianity. Orthodox monks would probably work even better, or Jesuits if you can find them.

Then just have them organize the area villages around their monastery in the aftermath of DD - an island of reason amid the chaos. Quite plausible, really.

Lordganon (talk) 12:41, December 23, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about not getting back life got real busy for me real fast. Can I keep the monestary in Upstate New York though so I don't have to change that much stuff. Maybe the Cistercian monastary in Livingston county?Grantzu (talk) 21:57, January 5, 2015 (UTC)

All good.

If you can find a monastery that would work, sure.

That one is the same order as Mount Angel, more or less, though slightly different. Could work, though you would need to work on the story then. Problem with it is that is is not a defensible position - would not be hard to overrun.

Lordganon (talk) 11:50, January 6, 2015 (UTC)

The monestary is called the Abbey of the Genesee Cistercian Monks Seeking God and Following Christ. It's fairly secluded and what I can get from the website they are fairly self sufficent, I could also say at first they paid tribute to raiders for protection from them and other raiders though I don't know if that would work with controlling refugees. I think the tribute idea would be pretty plausible.Grantzu (talk) 02:36, January 7, 2015 (UTC) 

Secluded and sufficient do not survival make - it's still near roads, and on flatish ground. As for tribute... since when has paying "Danegeld" ever worked? Lordganon (talk) 15:19, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Objections to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 03:15, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

South Zimbabwe

I've split up the Zimbabwe article into the two states, North and South Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 15:25, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Are there the same problems with South Zimbabwe as north Zimbabwe?--Smoggy80 15:19, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

With Zimbabwe being under three years old on DD is it not possible that racial problems kicked off (what with Mugabe being in charge in OTL and ATL) and the white settlers may have tried to head for South Africa (hearing of South African Union or even New Britain, not making it and setting up south Zimbabwe (or even renamed it New Rhodesia) in the 1990's.--Smoggy80 18:27, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

or more likely that it collapsed and split along the lines of Mashonaland, Matabeleland, Manicaland and Masvingo, as these have a great indivduality from each other--Smoggy80 18:37, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't have the numbers to do that.

I think, quite frankly, that you're exaggerating the different groups. Zimbabwe's never really had much trouble, in that regard - its problems, the black/white bit aside, has been political in nature. Not that there wouldn't be some problems, but fairly minimal, I'd expect.

Basically, overall, these two articles just kinda ignore the deaths the effects of DD would cause, what a civil war entails in that regard, refugees and the chaos they bring, and that HIV/AIDS would be far worse. It amounts to some of the text, and lowering the population to a plausible level.

Lordganon 07:27, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Objections to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 08:34, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

North Zimbabwe

An article by myself after the post-Doomsday Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation. Any objections? Caeruleus 06:47, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

How on earth can an inland nation, more or less cut off from the outside world, especially one this poor, have any real increase in manufacturing abilities, or industry? Simply put, it won't. It would decrease. As in no fuel, or materials to make such things with.

You ignore entirely why the white population was leaving. And what would happen to them, being forced to stay.

That population is 100% unrealistic. Not only is that almost higher than the population of the entire country otl, but also ignores one simple fact: AIDS exists, and would be far worse.

Lordganon 08:22, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Small scale growth in industry, through the replication of existing industry, is possible even in relative isolation, though Zimbabwe still had access to the outside world through Mozambique. While the basic technology wouldn't have advanced much, if at all, since Doomsday. They have access to native and neighboring supplies to expand existing industry. I will clarify that section.

Actually, the population is fairly accurate. The OTL population doesn't include refugees that reside outside the country, most of whom fled during the 2000s with the economic chaos in the country. I accounted for the death toll during the two civil wars, kept the White population, and factored in the lack of refugees. I will revisit the figures though.

White Zimbabweans left because they lamented their loss of political dominance and feared what could happen. While low-level racism and civil strife existed, the mass, state-driven discrimination they feared didn't occur until the late 1990s OTL with the land seizures, which didn't occur in North Zimbabwe. Being forced to stay, White Zimbabweans would contribute to the nation regardless because their own prosperity depends on the prosperity of the entire nation. I'll also clarify those passages though.

As for AIDS, the first case of AIDS in Zimbabwe was in 1985, after Doomsday. With the collapse of global trade and travel, the virus would spread much more slowly. I will investigate more about that first reported case and AIDS's expansion paterns. However, the AIDS epidemic wouldn't be much worse because even in OTL, the problem was largely ignored until the early 2000s and Zimbabwe's health care system collapsed in the mid-2000s. Caeruleus 13:24, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

First reported case. In a time that AIDS cases went unreported, and almost nothing was known about it. By the end of the 1980s, 10% of the population of Zimbabwe had it. I suggest you look into how long these things went unidentified. The first recorded case in Africa - in retrospect, mind, from persevered samples - was in 1959. It's believed that one may have happened in the late 50s, too. I'm sure you can guess how rare preserved samples are. Spread to NA in about 1970, and existed in West African ports at that time.

To think that it was not present in Zimbabwe in 1983 is very foolish on your part. And without campaigns in the area against it and methods - imported methods - to help prevent it, it's going to be as bad or worse.

Your population is horrifically out to lunch.

How on earth do you get the idea that they have contact outside their small area of Africa? Mozambique barely has any in 1987. And you think Zimbabwe has it in 1985? That's not possible. They would literally be lucky to maintain what they have. Expansion just isn't possible on any real level.

And you assume that the white population would be all right? And that there would be no refugees? You have a Civil War. Do the math.

The violence against the white population likely would not get so bad, true, but as I said, they were leaving for a reason. And you, for some reason, think that would just go away. Simply put, it won't. And it will get worse, too, in the aftermath of Doomsday - who do you think will be blamed for it, and will get it by extension?

The idea that they have outside contact in 1985 is not possible, at all. And you should know better than that.

Lordganon 23:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'll look into AIDS and add something about it.

"...horrificially out to lunch." I've got to say that's definitely a new phrase for me. Care to explain what specific problem you have with the current population numbers rather than making blanket opposition statements with no detail that make no sense, even if they are rather humorous?

Zimbabwe had native industrial capacities before Doomsday and had become largely self-driven in terms of industrial growth due to the isolation of Rhodesia. While the technology used would not have progress significantly, physical expansion of existing industry is well within the realm of possibility.

I never said the White population was "all right." The article states that they remained within the nation and contributed to economic growth. There would be issues, but the White population would have no where to flee to and would be too small to mount any significant military or political resistance. Ultimately, they would acquiese like the remaining OTL White population in Zimbabwe. And just because Westerners caused Doomsday doesn't mean the White Zimbabwean population would face massive retribution for it, especially since Zimbabwe never got nuked.

Like you said, the current Mozambique article makes no sense. They lost contact with everyone, even their neighbors, when they weren't even nuked. While I wait for someone to fix the article, I will continue on the reasonable assumption that regional communication would be minimally affected and communication with other unaffected states, like Nigeria and the Gulf States, would be reignitiated shortly after Doomsday. Caeruleus 00:39, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I never once said that Mozambique made no sense. How many times to I have to tell you to actually read things, and to not put words into my mouth? Jeez.

You really do fail to get the point. Contact between South America and the ANZC is barely functional in 1987. Nor is either in contact with the Gulf States at the time. And you're trying to say that this inland nation has contact with all of them, plus the Gulf States and Nigeria, in 1985, through a state fighting a massive Civil War? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? That is not remotely plausible, whatsoever. So long as you say things like that, there is no way this can ever graduate.

You have almost an extra three million people in Zimbabwe than in otl. I've already given ample reason why that makes absolutely no sense, but I'll repeat myself: Racial tensions, Civil War, refugees, no medicine, AIDS. As stated, out to lunch.

Expansion of industry? Not happening. An increase in goods made in the home? Maybe. But Industry? Just not possible. You have no fuel but coal, remember. Or any real natural resources besides a little coal, some diamonds, and some agricultural products.

You have a Civil War, to some extent caused by problems stemming from DD, and you think the white population would be not blamed? And that they wouldn't get attacked, even without any blame? Get real. Both would happen. This is a country where they had only just finished a different Civil War in 1980, against whites. And you're saying that they would be contributing? They can still flee south to the Pretoria area, under the remnants of the SA government, or more likely, die. There is a reason why Mugabe was able to do all of the garbage he did otl. And atl, it is still there.

Lordganon 07:08, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I moved back the date of contact/trade with the wider world. That was somewhat implausible. As for the population, you're still not understanding why it's so high. OTL Zimbabwe has a population 12.5 million plus 3.4 million refugees who aren't counted in the national population figures and largely fled after the economy began to collapse. That makes the total number of Zimbabweans about 15.9 million OTL. You also have the white Zimbabweans population, another 300,000 people, who never left the country. Neither the civil war, racial tensions, or HIV/AIDS would cause, even collectively, substantial declines in the population, which is why the population is what it is. I've accounted for everything and the population of North Zimbabwe will stand at 11.1 million.

White Zimbabweans are not going to just stop working or work. If Zimbabwe suffers, they suffer, so of course they're going to contribute. As part of the negiotiations with the former Rhodesian government, the early Mugabe government agreed to actively work to maintain racial stability, for the good of the country. Also, state-sponsored racial discrimination didn't begin until the late 1990s when the economy was already declining and most of the Whites had already left. The post-Doomsday Zimbabwean government would have an economic interest in maintaining racial stability because of the skills the White population possess. Additionally, Mugabe was assasinated in 1991, which weakened ZANU and the strong authority figure who was necessary to lead efforts similar to the OTL land grabs and subsequent rise in racial tensions.

As for industry, I've clarified what type of industrial expansion would occur, but some type of expansion is assured. Coal is the only fuel source you need for industry in the country and most of their industry is low-tech or labor-based, which doesn't require any technology that was not natively available. Pre-Doomsday Zimbabwe also had one of the best established industrial infrastructures on the continent, whihc would give them a strong base from which to expand. Keep in mind, the level of technology most of Zimbabwe's industry uses is still at the 1980s-level. The resources to physically build the factories and such would also be available, either natively or from their more stable neighbors. 128.135.100.102 21:03, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, I'm not a bloody idiot. I know about the refugees. You, however, are failing to get the point.

The population is too high. You have a few losses from fighting in a civil war. No refugees from fighting, no AIDS/HIV deaths, no racial tensions, and you're even adding medicines to blunt the impact that would not exist. None of that is possible or reasonable.

The drugs used to deal with that virus were developed in labs, or had the related effects discovered in labs. Largely, these were in nuked areas. At best, that tech will be at about a 1990 level. And, with a global cutoff in contact, its spread outside of Africa has been curtailed, drastically, which when combined with the destruction of cities, where most of those afflicted were, and the likely - rapid, too - fate of anyone surviving the blasts with it in the Northern Hemisphere. Simply put, outside of Africa below the Sahara it's not a major issue.

Those afflicted with it in this area are not going to last even as long as in otl. Deaths are going to be major. And given that the reasons for it spreading in this area in Africa are cultural in nature, there will be just as much problems with changing that as in otl. More hospitals and schools? Maybe a few, but thinking that a large number is possible, or would actually help to the extent you say is just not possible. The number is barely going down otl, with a ton of outside money and aid. Here, that's not happening. And, 1981 recognition of it? Ha.

The SA border guarded? That has no net effect on them leaving, really. They are still going to keep fleeing. And, after the start of the civil war, they are going to flee in droves. They are in a position of wealth. Guess what happens to those people in Civil Wars?

Yeah, Mugabe did say that. And you believe it? He only kept that around for aid. Once that started to slip, so did the policy. Think about it. Note, too I never said state-sponsored.

You also fail to think about a Civil War. Massive fighting, lots of military and civilian dead. But, a ton of refugees too. Those near the front are going to flee. Agricultural production - which goes down overall anyways, lack of fertilizer, etc. - will drop drastically. That is always the case in such a conflict.

Note, I said a little coal. Nor do you at all mention that the industry is virtually the same level as at DD. Expansion past that, not happening. Stability by modern times, somewhat possible.

The majority of this applies to the South as well.

Simply put, you are failing to take into account everything that impacts this area and the people. You have dropped the population by nearly a million, overall. Needs closer to two.

Lordganon 07:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I will take another look at the population figures, but there won't be any major decrease in the population. The deaths from AIDS won't be that major. The issue was largely ignored until the late 1990s, even with the presence of medicine. Up until that point, the lack of drugs would neither hurt nor help the infected. Also, the total number of infected is about the same as OTL. The only difference is that South Zimbabwe has a higher infection rate while North Zimbabwe has a lower one.

White Zimbabweans are not going to flee to a collapsing South Africa where Whites are being slaughtered by Blacks and vice versa. The fact that there's a civil war has little to do with the White population. They are a non-factor in the war and the war actually would make their presence even more beneficial due to their technical skills. The racial tension would be an issue, but racial violence would only occur if the government allowed, even if they didn't sponsor it as you said. The government would have a vested interest in maintaining racial harmony, which even existed OTL despite the White flight.

Refugees will exist but they will be internally displaced persons (IDL). ZANU supporters in the south will flee north and ZAPU supporters in the north would flee south. The percentage of the population near the border is fairly small, in the few hundreds of thousands. Most of these would simply flee deeper into their respective countries. They wouldn't have any options to flee anywhere else anyway. Botswana is sealed, Mozambique and South Africa were in a state of civil war, and Zambia is too far away. Very few of the refugees would end up leaving the region.

Zimbabwe, before Doomsday, was agriculturally self-sufficient, including with regards to fertilizer due to the isolation of Rhodesia. Also, Zimbabwe produces enough coal to meet all its needs plus it has a hydroelectric power plant. Electricity would not be a problem for the country's industry. I will go into more detail about the state of the country's industry though. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Ignored. And with medicine, many died. Here, little to no medicine. Easy math to do. Figures are double, minimum. Same goes for the infected. Without the contraceptive campaigns of otl by aid groups - note, too, that the locals will not do this on their own, culturally - it will be higher than otl.

Collapsing stopping them? Not likely. At all. And, that ignores the Pretoria state. You also failed entirely to understand the point of a civil war. Everyone is fighting, and chaos ensues in any areas with it, especially, and a bit everywhere. They can, and will, be targets. The racial equality stuff was a ploy to get aid. Nothing more. Here, they have no reason to do so except a slight economic reason. And how long will that last? Not long. Especially in a civil war. Seriously, actually look at what happens in those. While the government will likely try to stop them, and denounce them, there will be mobs, etc. Whites will die, and the rest will fear for their lives. They will not sit around. Simple. Many will flee.

Really? You think that will be all that happens, only internal refugees? There is a Civil War. A heck of a lot more will flee elsewhere, being unable to get to the area controlled by their factions and facing death, etc. by staying where they are. Doesn't really matter what the situation elsewhere is, much. The place where they are is bad. No matter what, elsewhere may be better. It's an easy choice, repeated through history. They will leave. Simple. Even the Civil War in Moz~ may be a better situation. Even if not, it beats being killed by your opponents.

Civilian death tolls along fronts are sky-high. But, you never even thought of that.

Isolation? I suggest that you have a better look into that. They were largely isolated. That is one heck of a difference. They were agriculturally self-sufficient, true, but in fertilizer? I doubt it. Everyone can produce some, true enough, but the South African Government was, in fact, still involved with the Rhodesians, and they got supplies from there. You are exaggerating their industry.

That Dam is on the border with Zambia. It may remain operational, true, but not for long. It's called the situation in Zambia, plus parts - or the lack thereof. The coal is in the "south", and the power plant? Not even under construction in 1983. So yeah. One heck of a problem.

As I said, the overall population needs to go down another million. And you need to look at what actually happens in Civil Wars, especially in Africa.

Lordganon 11:07, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose this one, as per the reasons above - plus this Zim is too much like OTL Zim today. It needs to look more realistically like the Zimbabwe of 1983, plus all the stuff that blows up when the country goes to war. Read up on the unrest of the 1980s, leading up to Robert Mugabe's massacre of the Matabele. Things were seriously going to hell in a handbasket anyway. This would be far, far, far, worse. Also keep in mind that the whites aren't going to lie down and take it peacefully, either. In 1983 there were still up to 190,000 of them left - nearly all the males with the best military training in Africa (Rhodesia conscripted all her white men between 16 and 60, and as of 1979 Salisbury had the best disciplined army on the continent). And in 1982 half the police reserve, nearly the entire air force, and up to a third of the army reserves were still filled with the same disgruntled servicemen who were ready to kill Bob when he was elected. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 23:29, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Objections to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 08:34, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

Arcade Games

I think my  arcade game page is ready for graduation ~Gold

...Gold, this is an error-ridden mess. Lordganon (talk) 16:14, September 11, 2015 (UTC)

Does this is an error-ridden mess refer to my proposal's gharmar or its contentGoldwind1 (talk) 11:17, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

Mostly the grammar and structure. Gold, it's nearly unreadable. Lordganon (talk) 19:43, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I think i fixed the gharmar. So once again I request that my article be graduatedGoldwind1 (talk) 17:29, September 23, 2015 (UTC)

...That may actually be worse. Lordganon (talk) 15:32, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

I think my article is ready for graduation.I have had two other people look at my edit job and they say the grammar is ok. If you still don't like the grammar you have my permission to fix itGoldwind1 (talk) 01:56, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

I think i am ready for graduationGoldwind1 (talk) 22:51, January 12, 2016 (UTC)

I think my arcade game page is ready for graduation. ~Gold

...Now it is. Objections? Lordganon (talk) 03:11, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Iordganon it has been over a week since you said my arcade game article was ready for graducation. Nobdody has objected so will  you please remove the proposal tag.Goldwind1 (talk) 15:02, July 17, 2016 (UTC)

Iordganon it has been a few months since you said my arcade game article was ready for graducation. Nobdody has objected so will you please remove the proposal tag. If you don't respond in a week, i hope you won't mind if i remove it myself.Goldwind1 (talk) 15:02, July 17, 2016

LG is less active than he used to be I'm afraid.

Tag removed, article graduated- congrats.

           Lies are all I have. Lies and vaudeville.  23:14, October 15, 2016 (UTC)