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British Imperial Party

Growing National Liberalist party in New Britain. Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Is Charles York a real person? Benkarnell 15:54, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
No. He has been born within the scope of the timeline. He is is his mid twenties. Bob 21:45, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
Graduated on grounds that it's Bob's area and had no objections. Benkarnell 13:19, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Northumbria

Article by Smoggy. Proposal was on hiatus but is back as a proposal. Mitro 03:17, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I still like it - just enough medieval flair to be interesting, but within the bounds of reason as well. I still would like more explanation of just how and why the two kids' falling-in-love will lead to outright unification. Whose idea it was, what steps are being taken, etc. But since Smoggy contributes sporadically, I support graduating the article and allowing her to make changes to it knowing that it's already canon. Any objections? Benkarnell 18:05, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
Its like the Castille-Aragon unification. The two heirs marry, so when they ascend to the thrones of their respective kingdoms, the two rulers united by marriage jointly rule both nations. Their first born would then be the heir to the thrones of both nations, uniting the crowns under a single ruler. Thats how the crowns would be united, but being constitutional monarchies it would likely take treaties and such to officially unite the kingdoms. With the Celtic Alliance's claim on the area, as well as New Britain's(though they aren't likely to make good on that claim unless the British Imperial party pushes for it), uniting the nations makes defensive and political sense.--Oerwinde 20:30, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

its becuase the crown prince of Notyhumbra George Domanic Percy is dating Princess zara who is Queen Anne's daughter--Owen1983 17:45, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Graduated. Benkarnell 13:41, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Economy

Article created by Owen. Has potential to be a general article that can be inserted into the main template. Needs a lot of work though. Mitro 03:14, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Changed to stub, since it's far from a concrete proposal. (The only new info is the list of countries by GDP, and honestly that's going to fluctuate anyway.) Benkarnell 13:51, December 9, 2009 (UTC) I have done a lot but there is a lot more 2 do Owen1983 16:23, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

League of the United American States

Article created by Lahbas. Mitro 03:20, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Since this describes an organization that is just a proposal in-universe, I think it falls within Lahbas' area of creative control, as creator of Superior. Now I don't think that an organization like this has much chance of becoming reality, unless major changes are made to assure potential members that it is not a threat to their independence. Benkarnell 18:10, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... I must say I have my doubts on the plausibility of such an organisation. With so much unclaimed and unoccupied land around in North America, and therefore a multitude of chances to expand, an International Relations system that is about as anarchic as can get, and nations not being all that interdependent, I don't see what the incentive for these nations would be to cooperate, and I would say they certainly wouldn't do it on a scale as large as this. I think this organisation is overly idealistic when it comes to the specific circumstances of this timeline. --Karsten vK (talk) 20:03, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
As far as graduating ht article is concerned, it doesn't have to work, it just has to be a thing that Superior would propose. I think that's fine. Benkarnell 23:28, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
Formally youre right ben...defining this as being a Superior proposal would allow graduation, indeed. But I hesitate to give an ok if this is not described more in detail...First, we have war going on in Saguenay... and explain me which presidant ( and population) would than euphorize about any "Bring back the US, and integrate all NOrth America into it?-proposal--Xi'Reney 00:27, November 28, 2009 (UTC)00:19, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

So far, I consider this LUAS reminding me too much of the OAS (Organisation of American States) which are present in quite a few TLs around here...and I really agree to KArsten that this is a scale of thinking which is much to idealistic..If you as a Superian or Superior?,or Superiorian? ow are the folks called there??:) have to think about getting trough the next day wit a war goin on quite clos... ow much would you really care about any LUAS like organisation? --Xi'Reney 23:39, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Hey, like some games it has gone through developmental hell, and as I have explained the Congress has rejected, or rather simply remained apathetic to the whole proposal. In the end, its success dependes on the outcome of the War in Qubec, if for that matter it is supported by the Congress. Lahbas 00:22, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I am in the midst of creating a more local form of this alliance. The Dixie Alliance, that of couse only features the Southern United States. Since most of the citystates in the South have but a paragraph describing them on the talkpage, It would encompass most of the South.They would restore (one at a time) the infastructure of these citystates with military speed. When it comes to rascist sates like the neo-Confederates or the Black states, the Virginian leaders follow a creed of Teddy Rosevelt. "Speak softly and carry a big stick". They would first attempt to reason with the diplomatically, and if that fails send a couple Thompson tanks as a show of force. Yankovic270 21:13, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

I have a reputation of been a free thinker here I think the idea is a non starter butmaking it a proplosal By RS will insure graduation but if the conditions are right this will become possible--Owen1983 21:26, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

The page seems not to threaten anyone else's countries directly. Graduated, Benkarnell 13:51, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Chumash Republic

Article created by Riley. Mitro 04:49, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

I like it. Benkarnell 16:13, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Article graduated. Mitro 23:19, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Tennessee/Blue Ridge

Proposal pages for the Morristown and Asheville areas I referred to in the 2009 WCRB report on the southern U.S. I wrote up. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Tennessee_%281983:_Doomsday%29 http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Ridge_%281983:_Doomsday%29 --BrianD 00:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Probably this can quickly be passed, since it's based on accepted material from your report. You're more-or-less caretaker of the Southeastern US as a region, anyway (just as Fx acts as caretaker of the Middle East in general). Benkarnell 13:55, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Graduated. Mitro 13:46, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Iowa

I Have created this artical here http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Republc_of_Iowa_%281983_Doomsday%29%29 what do people thin I Know Yankovic expressed interest in thi article

It seems to have been deleted. Benkarnell 15:59, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
No its still here: Republic of Iowa (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 16:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
Oh. Well no, that's no good. Nothing beyond village-sized republics and settlements in Iowa, I think. There is too much QSS material on Iowa's neighbors (Superior/Wisconsin, Lincoln, the NAU, etc) that presume a mostly empty Iowa. Benkarnell
I'm going to tag this Obsolete if there are no disagreements. Benkarnell 13:13, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Rejected and marked as obsolete. Mitro 13:46, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Little League baseball

Article created by Brian. User:BrianD

Graduated. Mitro 13:46, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Political parties of Bermuda

An article I created that outlined all the political parties of Bermuda --Gamb1993 21:25, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

I think this article can be quickly graduated, any objections? Mitro 13:50, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
What about a Libertarian part? s Libertarianism gone for good in this time line? Rile.Konner 18:06, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
Does Bermuda even have a Libertarian party OTL? Mitro 17:02, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
Used to but it dissolved in 1980 so it would have been gone before doomsday. Riley.Konner 18:12, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
There might be a few libertarian parties existing throughout the southern hemisphere nations. Some small survivor communities might even have adopted a libertarian-like system of government based on necessity. Still I think we can safely say the lack of a Libertarian party in post-DD Bermuda doesn't make the article any less plausible. Mitro 13:43, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Delmarva

In addition to my ongoing work on the Middle East, I have created a survivor nation on the former US East Coast, Delmarva. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Delmarva_(1983:_Doomsday) I have already opened a discussion page and laid out some of my thoughts. Since this is still a work in progress, I welcome your feedback and suggestions. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 03:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating the page? Benkarnell 13:52, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
I'm fine with Delmarva. --BrianD 18:22, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Where is the location of the capital? User:WAJJER

The capital is located in Salisbury. I chose the location based on the city's overall importance to the Delmarva Peninsula and geographic location given it is in roughly the center of Delmarva.--Fxgentleman 00:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping someone might be able to help. I just uploaded my map to this article and I keep getting a file name appearing above it in the nation info box. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong, because I am unsure? Thanks.--Fxgentleman 02:40, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Got it. When adding images to infobox templates you don't need to have "File:" or "thumb" or the brackets. All of that code is already built into the template itself. Mitro 03:31, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for the help. I wondered the same thing because I had looked at what others had did as a guide before I started. Perhaps I was just doing something wrong, but when I removed those items, the map would not appear. I will just have to watch for it when I load maps in the future. --Fxgentleman 04:08, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I like the map, easyer to see what the country looks like. Since Delmarva controlled the old colonial sites such as jamestowm and williamburg, it seems they were not destroyed. Is the government going to address the historic sites now controlled, or is this a bit early to think about it. With Doomsday destroyed many historical sites (ie Independance Day Hall), need to think about whats left.--WAJJER 13:17, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment on the map, I put a lot of time into creating it. It’s funny you should raise this question since it was something I was already thinking about. Given the fact the destruction of nearly all major urban areas would result in the loss of an incalculable number of museums, galleries, and archives, I would imagine trying to preserve what is left would be important to new nations gathering in the ruins of others, if time and circumstance allowed. Given that all the various nations of North America, sans those of Canada and Mexico, would be descended from the old US I would imagine there would be an inherent desire to pass down such a legacy to their descendants. I have decided to create an organization within the UCD tasked with doing what it can with sites in or near to the nation. The problem though with the so-called historic triangle, Jamestown, Williamsburg, and Yorktown, is they were fairly close to bombed sites and even if they somehow survived, might be in a no-man’s land of radioactive contamination. However, I will be studying this in the future. It might be an interesting idea in the near future to create international heritage sites to preserve certain regions of the world much as they do today.--Fxgentleman 17:40, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Radiation levels should reach levels safe for travel and decontamination efforts within 3-5 weeks of Doomsday. This long after DD radiation levels should be almost nil.--Oerwinde 20:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

The map is not going to please Yankovic, with his ambitions of extending Virginia to the coast. Pretty much his only route now is through the southern tip of Virginia, which will take a lot of work with most of it destroyed.--Oerwinde 19:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I saw it and you are right. Saying that the map does not please me is an extreme understatement. I am angry about it, and undoubtably so will Virginia. You have to understand the national charactor of Virginia to understand their reaction. They are not a quiet, pacifistic nation like the Republic of Lincoln. In fact the oposite is true. They are a hot-headed, jingoistic militocracy (something like the United States under W). They would see Delmarva's claim as an insult, and react accordingly. They would negotiate for hours, but if they negotiations go south they are the kind of nation that would not think twice about invading and seizing the land for themselves. I don't want it to go that far. I have an offer. Virginian Maryland for Delmarvan Virginia. The Virginian Republic would trade its claim in Maryland for Delmarva's claim in Virginia. If you reject this offer, I cannot promise I will not have Virginia grind Delmarva under tank treads and hobnailed boots. Yankovic270 22:05, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Yank we have said before that this isn't an RPG. In all likelihood WV can't do squat about what is going on with Delmarva. They only claim "East" Virginia, they don't control anything that close to the coast and they can't stop another survivor state that is closer from moving into the area. They might want to have a port but they are no where near extending their territory that far yet. As for a war, how are they going to fight? The territory between the two states has degenerated into wilderness by now, not exactly the best territory to move an army. Remember also that Delmarva got to this extent over almost two decades. Technically Virginia would have realized it during its own history. If they didn't do anything back then, they are certainly not going to do anything now. As always maybe 10 or 20 years from now it might be a real issue, but right now it just means some cold shouldering among diplomats. Mitro 22:29, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments Mitro. I am saddened to say this has reached a state of ridiculousness. Although the bulk of my work has been and continues to be in the Middle East, as a native and lifelong resident of northern Virginia I chose to create Delmarva in the hope part of my region might be able to survive Doomsday. I have done an extensive amount of research on the subject and have invested and continue to do so a lot of hard work in developing this article. I decided to become a contributor here like everyone else in that I love alternate history and the challenge of creating it. However, I have been upfront about the UCD since I first started writing and in fact listed the UCD counties before I loaded my map. As such, anyone who has been reading my work since the beginning should not be “surprised” at where I have gone. I have been aware for some time based on comments dropped here and there that Yank may not be thrilled with the UCD. I have chosen not to say anything, even having read the squabbles over places like Tennessee and Ohio. As I said, I am here to have fun and in fact made suggestions for the VR which were later incorporated. None the less, I am very dismayed by this inappropriate display towards me. I was aware the VR and UCD would likely meet in the future and it was my hope ambassadors would be exchanged and relations amiable when the time came. I still have hope for this.--Fxgentleman 03:02, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Given the style and policies of Virginia's regime, it's very likely that its coexistence with Delmarva has not been peaceful. It may be helpful to ascertain exactly when Virginia & Delmarva came into contact with each other, and when they became aware of one another's competing claims. I would imagine it was fairly recently, what with the barrier of the Mountains... but then, Virginia's been relatively ambitioous in recent years in its exploration of the region, correct? - in its bid to become a regional power. So: what if Delmarva and Virginia did in fact have a war of some kind in the past, say around 2005-2006. I don't see it as likely that Virginia could root out DMV from the western shore region, but I can definitely imagine bad blood between the two powers. Benkarnell 04:51, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

You make a valid point in your observations and I was hoping to not have to go this route with the VR. I honestly have to say I did not see either side meeting via borders until around 2004, but I would imagine the UCD and VR would have to be aware of each other having intercepted their respective radio and television signals. The question though about physical contact has been up in the air given the VR has been all over the place regarding expansion and moving at rates that did not seem logical to me. I had hoped to address this issue with Yankovic in the future and indicated my thoughts in an earlier comment to him. However, the one thing I should note about the UCD is all these areas voted to join of their own free will and were not forced. As such, they are citizens of the nation by choice and to "surrender" them to the VR would be about as farfetched as the US giving Texas back to Mexico. That said they would put up a stiff fight to anyone trying to invade them. I am all for peace, just not appeasement. --Fxgentleman 05:37, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

FxGentleman, I'm sorry you've had to deal with this. You're right, this is supposed to be fun. This isn't supposed to be a pain in the you-know-what for anyone. This is alternate history we're writing. We are people writing alternate history, we ourselves are not the countries we write about. --BrianD 06:13, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

You yourself said it best on the talkpage of the failed citystate of Athens, Georgia. You said that it was important "to have one scenario where readers can see the negative side", and that "Not everything in a nuclear war timeline can be sunny and rosy". The idea that everything is going to be all right should have been the first to die in this timeline. Yes this is alternate history, but that dosen't mean that there aren't territory disputes. And given the overall character of Virginia, this is one dispute that might boil over. The RPG-style messages were me atempting to walk a mile in Virginia's shoes on this issue. I wanted to explain the mentality of the Virginians. They have a "manifest destiny" of sorts. They want the territory of the former state of Virginia in its entirety. Sure I used to think of this as fun, but that was before users like Mitro helped me ground my ideas in reality. Now I think of this as a thought experiment that needs to be as realistic as possible. And small conflicts like this are bound to happen. They happen in our world, so it is easy to imagine them happening in this world. --Yankovic270 22:27, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yank no one is saying conflicts aren't ever going to happen, but the idea of Virginia going to war now is unrealistic. For one thing they do not share a common border with Delmarva. Both nations also would be force to trasport their forces across territory controlled by neither side. As I said before maybe in a few years the issue could boil over, but not now. Virginia right now is claiming territory that they cannot realisticly control at their current pace. It makes for bad diplomatic relations, but war right now is unrealistic. Mitro 23:07, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I agree on that. I didn't add anything on Delmarva in the Virginian article anyway. But the Virginians aren't the kind of people who "forgive & forget" wrongs. They will probbably keep their grudge, as they think that it is their right to control the entire former state. The situation could be like that of Austria-Hungary and Serbia in the years leading up to WWI. The bad feelings in both states (likely to be strengthened by the Virginian media) would grow and grow until a point where a single "spark" ignites the powderkeg. It may not happen now, but the natural tensions that would arise would make it a certainty that it will happen. When it will happen is less certain. --Yankovic270 23:26, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yank, Athens has nothing to do with this, and the subject I'm working on there isn't the point. My point is, we are not these nations. I am not Athens, I'm Brian. You're Yank, not Virginia. When you do the RPG-style thing, it doesn't come off as Virginia being aggressive towards other nations, it comes across as you being aggressive towards us. I don't see that role-playing going on in any of the messages involving the Saguenay War, or the Sicily war. I do see editors there talking rationally with one another and developing scenarios. As far as my other point about having fun, it's, let's have fun doing this, while working with one another in a helpful and productive manner.--BrianD 17:04, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

All things considered I still think this article should be graduated, any objections? Mitro 03:54, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

None.--BrianD 03:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Despite some objections as to the Virgnian territory, I have none on it becoming canon. --Yankovic270 04:28, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Panama Canal Zone

Discussion moved to Talk:Panama Canal Zone. It had just gotten really, really long, and we seemed to be arriving at a consensus anyway. I'm planning on writing an article in the next couple of days, but they're going to be very busy. If someone else wants to write it based on our discussion, I won't mind. Benkarnell 15:51, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion has stalled, and frankly I'm probably not going to get to writing this article anytime soon. Benkarnell 17:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion has stalled, marked as stub until further notice. Mitro 17:23, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Singapore

Canon nation that is finally being fleshed out by Brian. Mitro 03:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Anyone have thoughts on the article? I'm working on it as I can. The non-historical portions are easy to create. Right now I'm most concerned about the history of the country, and want to be sure it's realistic and doesn't contradict whats been established as canon for the TL nor for any other countries. Please let me know what you think!--BrianD 18:50, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
I don't know much about Singapore, but the article looks good. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Mitro 17:25, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
Unless there are any objections I think we should go ahead and graduate this article. Mitro 03:20, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Graduated. Mitro 14:42, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Morocco

Article created by Tristan, probably is up for a quick graduation. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Graduated. Mitro 14:42, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Collective Security Treaty Organization

An article I made outlining a possible new organization.--Vladivostok 15:22, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I think creating this will create fear and tension a lot of countries suffered due to the events of 1983 i dont think thay want to go down the same road trice --Owen1983 22:13, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Well most other stronger world nations in the TL have some sort of formal alliance in which they are in. The ANZC has allies all around the Pacific, almost all of South America is in the SAC, not to mention the ADC, which is the remnant of NATO. I think this organization would come without any surprise.--Vladivostok 13:58, December 15, 2009 (UTC) you have made a good point--Owen1983 18:48, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Unless there are any objections I think we should go ahead and graduate this article. Mitro 03:22, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

I just looked over the article. It says that it is a reincarnation of the Warsaw Pact; however the only one of the new nations that was in the Warsaw Pact was Siberia (as the successor to the USSR). I guess it could be seen ideologically as the reincarnation of the pact, but I think that that sentence should be removed. Other than that I think it's fine. --DarthEinstein 03:42, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

I won't say I'm really opposed to the organisation, but for logistic reasons I guess this alliance will be little more than symbolic. Perhaps it would be nice if that would also be mentioned in the article. --Karsten vK (talk) 12:21, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

If those are the main concerns, I'll change the bit about the Warsaw Pact, I'll say that it is similar, not a reincarnation. For now, it is symbolical, it is a proposal in the TL, like the League of the United American States. Later on, we'll see how it will turn out.--Vladivostok 06:41, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Once said changes are made I think we can graduate this article. Mitro 14:34, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Vostochny Cosmodrome

An article I created concerning already established facts on the Siberian space program.--Vladivostok 20:56, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I think this article can be graduated, are there any objections? Mitro 20:16, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Graduated. Mitro 00:40, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Trenton

Article created by Yank. Mitro 03:27, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. New Jersey, as always, got the worst of it, lying as it does in the middle of several major metropolitan areas. It looks like Yank hasn't developed it, anyway. But based on the infobox, it looks like it was part of the "ethnic Americans re-create Old World culture" craze, something that's been rejected overall. Benkarnell 18:01, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It is because they are lead by a group of the American Mafia, many of which came from Italy. Sicily specifically. It isen't implausible that some of these mobsters have fond memories of home. --Yankovic270 18:18, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

If anybody survived in NJ, organized crime bosses would likely be the ones running things soon afterward. But they'd be the bosses of a hardscrabble shantytown, nothing like the rulers of a modern nation-state. They'd probably use barter (or an economy of "you eat what we say you eat"), not some newfangled "lira" currency. And like all simple societies, theirs would probably be fluid, mobile, and impermanent. I could see the mafia guys running their shantytown for a few years after DD, but after that things would probably change as they ran out of bullets and their mechanical devices stopped working and people came and went from the area in search of a land that could yield more food. Rembember, Yank - this is post-apocalyptic fiction. The whole point is that society collapses and we have to start over from a primitive state. It's the same reason, by the way, that Virginia can't be the mechanized modern state that you've been trying to describe. In the affected areas, people are only concerned with food and security, and they have to get both without relying on modern technology. Benkarnell 18:52, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Hey Yank, I thought of this today. A full-fledged state anywhere in New Jersey is unlikely - no resources or infrastructure to support that kind of development - but we've had very little detailed work on the seminomadic "clans" now said to inhabit most of North America. Why not a clan led by former New Jersey mafia? After all, the mafia already have "clans". And their family hierarchy is exactly the sort of informal social structure that would survive an Apocalyptic event even while civil government fell apart. So whaddya say? A bilingual Italian-English nomadic clan centered on New Jersey. You could even call them Clan Trenton. Benkarnell 02:50, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I then want my ex-mafia nomads to eventually find a place to settle down and start a small nationstate. Where should that be? --Yankovic270 03:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

According to the History of Delmarva, Trenton was hit by a nuke. Mitro 04:11, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I know now, I just want to know where I can establish a Mafia-lead citystate in America. I was inspired to put in New Jersey because of is proximity to the infamous five families of New York, and because I saw the prison-oriented map of New Jersey on the defunct Criminal State talkpage section. Could it instead be in Central Illinois or Indiana? Maybe set in the small town of Springfield, Illinois. --Yankovic270 03:41, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure where we would be a plausible place for such a nation, but I doubt it would be Springfield. The Mafia usually operates out of the larger cities, which sadly were all nuked on DD. You might want to however look into the Republic of Wisconsin which for a time was controlled by a group of gangs before be liberated by Superior. Anyway I am going to mark Trenton as obsolete unless there are any objections. Mitro 15:38, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Being marked as obsolete. Mitro 00:40, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Christmas

Article copied directly from Wikipedia, needs a lot of work. Article created by Owen. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article was deleted. Mitro 18:59, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Serbia

Article created by Zeifodd. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but IMHO, Northern Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria wouldn't have a unified government. These areas weren't stable before Doomsday, and several nukes would no doubt solidify their chaos. Mr.Xeight 00:22, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree. Unless there is some major changes to the article I think we should mark it as obsolete. Mitro 02:58, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Marked as obsolete. Mitro 04:40, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Commonwealth Armed Forces

I'm creating a page on CANZ Armed Forces.--MC Prank 15:25, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Since this article mostly contains info that is already canon, is their any objections to graduating it? Mitro 17:11, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Graduating. Mitro 22:46, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

U2

Article created by Brian. Mitro 03:28, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Despite not being finished, I don't see any reason not to graduate. Any objections? Mitro 19:35, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
I apologize for that. Life's gotten in the way, of that project and some others. I'll try to work on it, and finish it, in the next couple of weeks. --BrianD 19:57, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

None here --GOPZACK 19:39, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Graduating. Mitro 03:39, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Holidays

Article created by Owen. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

IMHO, I don't see the reason for having an article on holidsys. Now if this article highlighted holidays that were created after Doomsday or holidays that were significantly altered because of Doomsday, that would be a different story. Mitro 04:31, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
Unless there are some major changes to the article I am going to mark it as obsolete. Mitro 00:26, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
Obsoleting. Mitro 03:39, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Superior military articles

See: Republic of Superior Air Force (1983: Doomsday), Republic of Superior Army (1983: Doomsday) and Republic of Superior Navy (1983: Doomsday). There have been some objections regarding the size of the Superior military and the number of vehicles they command. Mitro 03:24, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I think they're fine now that Lahbas clarified that those numbers represent the reserves (defined as most able-bodied adults) and not active personnel. Benkarnell 17:03, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
Yeah but there are still the issues involving the number of planes and ships Superior operates. Mitro 18:50, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

the plane numbers have been explained in the Republic of Superior Air Force (1983: Doomsday) talk page --Owen1983 22:41, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Owen haven't you noticed the number of people on that talk page who believe that explanation is too optimistic/implausible? Mitro 03:37, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

your right mitro the number is a bit OTT --Owen1983 13:16, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

I think the army and air force articles can be graduated, but the navy article still needs some work. Mitro 16:42, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

HAD's changes to the Navy article I think make it more plausible. Unless there are any objections I am going to go ahead and graduate this article. Mitro 19:25, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
Graduating the last article. Mitro 14:22, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Santa Cruz

Article I created based on when it was mentioned in the Chumash Republic Riley.Konner 00:34, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 03:35, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

since I discovered this article it has developed I am in favor of graduating it--Owen1983 14:23, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

I found it and looked it over... and immediately had to correct about a dozen grammatical mistakes per paragraph. Although I may have accidentally changed something important. Anyway I find it a great idea, and am for graduating it. --DarthEinstein 17:25, December 29, 2009 (UTC)


I just have to ask who this "Vilodari Scholairi" fellow and how is he related to Benito Mussolini? Other then that no objections here. --GOPZACK 19:14, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

He's fictional does exist in real life, as far as I know, I got the name from an Italian friend of mine who's last name is Vilodari. Riley.Konner 07:53,

December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I figured as much but I don't see how you ca use a fictional person & then claim that he is related to Mussolini why not just say he was inspired by Mussolini or something like that? --GOPZACK 04:39, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
Riley has made Zack's suggested changes. Unless there are anymore objections/questions I will graduate this article tonight. Mitro 19:24, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Graduating. Mitro 14:23, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Nauru and Pitcairn Islands

Two articles on two associate states of ANZC created by GOPZACK. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to get both articles graduated. If you have any objections speak now or forever hold your peace --GOPZACK 00:26, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Articles graduated. Mitro 21:49, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

French Foreign Legion

From French Guyana I started working on this article...removed the obsolete and put it to work in progress/Stub I will focus on the detachment in Guyana... if our France experts would like to take care of some parts of Mainland Legion remains (if there are any??)...welcome--Xi'Reney 22:19, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not much of a France expert but I do know the 13th Foreign Legion Demi-Brigade was stationed in Djibouti during DD. Mitro 22:57, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
This article has been sitting in proposal status for a while now. Though unfinished are their any objections to just graduating this article and marking it as a stub? Mitro 00:33, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Athens, Georgia

An article I created for a citystate in the southern US that, unfortunately, didn't survive.--BrianD 23:12, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 00:33, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Nope--GOPZACK 00:36, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Mitro and GOPZACK. Before you graduate it, are there any changes or additions I should make, or flesh out?--BrianD 02:20, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Bulgaria

Article created by Zeifodd. Zeifodd

I checked it out and the country was hit by one nuke so with a bit of work I would think this would deserve graduation--Owen1983 22:19, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that Bulgaria would only get hit by one nuke. Other Soviet client states were hit by several (like East Germany and Afghanistan) and I can't think of a good reason why Bulgaria would avoid similar multi-strikes. Also what does this mean: "Bulgaria somehow survived the doomsday for a week but after a mistake a bomb has falled in Blagoevgrad in the doomsnight." It seems to suggest that Bulgaria was not actually attacked until a week after Doomsday which doesn't make any sense. Mitro 15:25, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

It definitely needs work, and I agree that being hit by one nuke only is unlikely. I suggest that there are about four to eight targets, one of them being the capital. The other targets would be other important cities and strategically important locations, major ports, etc. I don't know much about Bulgaria so I can't give exact cities. --DarthEinstein 16:59, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

OK,you are right,there is information that a nuke has hitted Sofia: "Bulgaria somehow survived the doomsday for a week but after a mistake a bomb has falled in Blagoevgrad in the doomsnight." yeah this is weird maybe i wanted to :"Bulgarians have been hit by 5 nukes in the Doomsday.The capital and 4 other big towns were destroyed and abot 2.5 mln have died.Other 3 mln were hitted by the radiation,the other 1 mln have tried to evacuate in Greece,Africa or Turkey." So it's very possible that 500 000 people have survived(from 7.5 mln) and big part of tham want to come back if it's possible. Thanks and commen --Zeifodd 18:50, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry Zeif, but your article is still not entirely realistic. First of all, any surviving peasants would have now way of getting to Greece, Turkey, and especially not Africa. They could never get past the nuclear Hell that is Northern Greece. Going west to Serbia, not exactly better. Any survivors would be relegated to their original areas. Sorry, but I doubt any sort of organize government can exist in the Balkans; the only reason Greece survived is because of the islands and the south.

Sorry if some of my sentences are scattered-brained. My Mom has Greek Christmas songs blasting, and I mean quite literally too-loud to hear yourself think.

Mr.Xeight 22:56, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Yes.I see your point,but it is possible for people to escape,not many,might be 10000 but even if they hadn't,there is a huge number of bulgarian emigrants because of the communist government and even today in OTL they are millions.Really,may be the emigrants would prefer stay at safe in South America or Africa,but a little number of them is probable to try to get back their own land or something near it. But the radiation...is a problem.First they are in the western part of Balkans,so the only bombs have fallen in Bulgaria,Greece and Romania.They are less than 9 and it's still possible to make a little society.But really it can be very hard and dangerous to live there,so may be no more than 15-20 thousand people would come back at first.Would be that OK?Leave a shout --Zeifodd 14:47, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

It really depends on what would have been hit in Bulgaria. Sofia would have been destroyed, but given that Bulgaria wasn't the strongest of allies to the USSR most other urban areas would have been spared. Military bases on the other hand wouldn’t be so lucky. Anyone know what military targets there would have been?--ShutUpNavi 17:17, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

If you mean some military complexes and so on...it's hard to say.There are mainly army legion centers in several places,but some big goal-no.Nothing was too special or dangerous,except the nuclear electro central,so it's possible that no big attack over Bulgaria has been planned. However it seems possible for 10 thousand people to come back. Leave your idea. --Zeifodd 18:25, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

The size of the state, plus it being founded by thousands of Bulgarians and Serbs from across the world returning to a nuclear wasteland seems a little too unbelievable. Unless there are some major changes, I think we should mark this article as obsolete. Mitro 15:47, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Marked as obsolete. Mitro 02:01, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Western Africa

I created a bunch of bare bones articles for Western Africa as it hadn't been touched yet aside for Liberia. Nigeria (1983: Doomsday) Ivory Coast (1983: Doomsday) West African Union (1983: Doomsday) Anyone is free to contribute, as I'm pretty much just going off Wikipedia for my info and am not an expert by far, I'd just like to see Africa not suck for once, and figure the destruction of the western world and the status quo is a good place for a change in direction. So far the vision I have has this:

  • Nigeria have a western educated, charismatic leader, basically does a Martin Luther King Jr with big speeches and stuff advocating for Africa to step in a different direction. To put aside its history of bloodshed and with the western world gone, to step up and take its place as a leader in the world. Outlines reforms, gets lots of followers, gets assassinated. Sparks revolution in Nigeria and democratic government is put in place with effective anti-corruption laws and military reforms to avoid the long strings of coups.
  • Togo is eventually pressured into fully democratizing by Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, and Nigeria. Its heavy agriculture economy eventually makes it a major food exporter. This is the reason for the other four pressuring it to democratize.
  • Ivory Coast, being one of the few african countries that has a stable government and welcomes europeans recieves a large influx of european refugees that eventually leads to major modernization of industries.
  • Ghana and Senegal, being mostly stable, recieve aid from the new Nigerian government and Ivory Coast to maintain stable effective governments and form strong ties between the 4 nations.

The rest is pretty open. Likely the rest of the surrounding nations go to chaos, but the West African Union's main goal is to establish stable, effective, democratic government in the area and is working hard to spread this to the rest of the region. The articles that are there are mostly placeholders just establishing where I was going with it. Feel free to flesh them out if you feel like it.--Oerwinde 06:27, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Added Senegal (1983: Doomsday), Ghana (1983: Doomsday), and Togo (1983: Doomsday)--Oerwinde 07:48, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
Expanded the article on Nigeria and West African Union, added Ambazonia (1983: Doomsday).--Oerwinde 03:24, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Added Islamic Republic of Cameroon (1983: Doomsday) as mentioned in Nigerian history.--Oerwinde 11:56, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I haven't had time to read all of these, but overall it's a great idea - great work! This was part of the original raison d'etre of the TL: to eliminate the Western powers and have traditionally weak nations step to the forefront of world affairs. I think that maybe we should tweak the pages on Liberia in response to this. ISTR that we have the League of Nations intervening there to end the civil war this year. It seems much more likely to me that the WAU itself would accomplish that: it would boost its prestige, and it would keep the LoN from having an unrealistically large number of actions and successes in its first 2 years of existence. Benkarnell 16:02, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

This could be the operation that Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, etc. are working on that causes Nigeria to enter Ambazonia on its own. Originally I was thinking Guinea and Guinea-Bissau.--Oerwinde 19:15, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
As the creator of the Liberia articles I have to say I'm ok with any changes made to them involving this new plot. Mitro 00:14, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

What would be the West African Union's relationship to the SAC, ANZC, Communist Bloc, and ADC? --DarthEinstein 20:29, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I would say right now they'd be mostly neutral with most. The Communist bloc is against the general political beliefs of the Union so they would be closer to the rest. Being mostly French and English countries I would put the ANZC and possibly the ADC as the closest relations. New Britain and the New Union of South Africa would be the major foreign focus though I think. Also for the forseeable future they will mostly be a regional thing, improving conditions in West Africa. Though they've expanded rapidly and been mostly successful in spreading stable democracy in the region, economic stability and self sufficiency is their goal now before they overextend. They would mostly likely seek some sort of cooperative agreement with the New Union of South Africa.--Oerwinde 08:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I think for the most part most people don't have any objections to Oer's West Africa plan, so should we graduate it? Mitro 15:44, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Graduating. Mitro 01:02, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

War in the Mediterranean!

Discussion moved to Talk:Second Sicily War (1983: Doomsday). Benkarnell 19:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Piedmont Republic

This is where I should have put this discussion in the first place. I am just getting used to this wiki stuff.

In finding the Republic of Blue Ridge, I was elated. That is just north of me (my daughter lives there in OTL). I live in Greenville and wondered what would have happened in the upstate of SC.

The nearest thing to the upstate has been information that Charlotte was nuked, and that Anderson, SC, is an African-American racist city state. Toccoa, GA, turns out to be its white racist counter-part after the fall of the Athens-based provisional government of Georgia.

To the south, Augusta, GA, is gone, as is the SC capital of Columbia. The four uptate SC counties bordering NC - Oconee, Pickens, Greenville, and Spartanburg - form the home of South Carolinian refugees. The Oconee Nuclear Power station has been damaged, but not destroyed, leaving the area mostly "in the dark," literally, though at first some energy may have been coming down from unaffected coal-fired facilities in what became the Republic of Blue Ridge. That disappears as it is re-routed or destroyed by early vandals in that developing republic.

I need some help in setting up a page for the article. Can anyone help me develop the page based on the templates available? --SouthWriter 21:52, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

I got you started. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Piedmont_Republic_(1983:_Doomsday) --BrianD 22:56, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. It is well on the way. When do I get considered for "canonization"? --SouthWriter 20:07, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Once you are finished, say on the main talk page that you are ready for the article to be graduated.--BrianD 20:11, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I have finished (for now). I think I have set down a good foundation. I will flesh out some of the history later. The Piedmont Republic is ready to graduate! --SouthWriter 07:08, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone, take a look at the article, give your thoughts. I have no problem with graduating the article as is (though it needs to be completed) nor with the proposal in general. --BrianD 07:52, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

i have no problems with this article being graduated. two things: i like the flag. and 2nd: there seems to be a slight pro-christianity slant to the nation. wwas South Carolina religous enough for this to arise? the Former US Goverment was a secular goverment after all.--HAD 12:12, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

South Carolina is part of the "Bible Belt", a socially and religiously conservative (mainly Baptist) region. Greenville, the capital, is home of Bob Jones University, one of the few institutions left that still embraces the label "Fundamentalist". The university first allowed interracial dating in 2000. And the president of Piedmont appears to be part of the family that founded and still runs the university. I know that there has been a growing movement in certain US religious groups to sort of re-combine church and state, and I know it began picking up steam in the 1980s. In this place, presumably, the events of nuclear war caused the community to rely even more on their religion and make it part of their government, something many of them wanted to do even before. Benkarnell 16:54, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
HAD, the government does indeed in practice act on a principle of separation of church and state, but there has been some debate here in the US for quite awhile now on whether the country's origins are Christian or secular. Even now in 2010, there are many places in the US where a large majority of people call themselves Christians, and would like society and their government to reflect their values. (Conversely, there are also many places in the US that are less religious, more secular and the people want their society and government to reflect those values). The religious right's influence has lessened considerably in the 2000s...but its influence was probably at its height in the 1980s. SouthWriter's observations on the Piedmont area of 1983 in regards to religion is spot on. In fact, without influence from American pop culture and media in the ensuing years, Christianity probably would have strengthened in influence in certain parts of the post-Doomsday US. I assumed this to be the case in West Texas (although there are plenty of rednecks who like to party, and some Baptists who like their beer :) ). Vermont would be either predominantly mainline Protestantism and some Catholicism, or agnostic. --BrianD 17:14, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben and Brian. You have a good grasp on the world in which I grew into in the 1980's. I moved to Greenville after graduating from the University of Georgia in Athens, beginning Grad school at Bob Jones University in the Spring Semester of 1976. I was married in 1977 and finished grad school in 1980. I have lived in Greenville ever since. Though I am not strictly a "fundamentalist," my wife's family (mom and two half-brothers) are. My late father-in-law was an ordained Fundamentalist Baptist. My wife and I are conservative Presbyterians in the same denomination as our present Congressman and one of our Senators (the "most conservative politician in Washington"), proving that you don't have to be Baptist to be a conservative Christian.
Greenville has been called the "buckle" of the Bible Belt. Conservatives here find it hard to believe those who deny the Christian origins of the USA. It is admitted that the founding fathers were ambiguous by design (assuring true freedom of religion), but to deny the influence of religion -- Christianity in general -- is considered ridiculous. Besides, the "silent majority," and even the "Christian Coalition," have sought to establish undeniable "traditional" values as a given. Though human nature has not changed, the rise of humanism in all its forms seems to have accentuated the bad side of Western civilization.
I look forward to fleshing out this article soon. The tension in Anderson (though I have a hard time picturing exactly how that quaint town could have gone the way it did) provides an excellent background for the rise of the secular base in Clemson (less than thirty miles from the city and bordering the county. Other counties, like Laurens and Union, seem like obvious candidates to join the republic (or cede their lands to Greenville and Spartanburg). Newberry and Greenwood, down nearer the strike zones, could be the source for either refugees or city-states torn with strife (and thus refugees of another sort).
And one more thing, Thank you HAD on your appreciation of the flag. --SouthWriter 06:03, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

The thing to remember is that when the bombs hit, everything changed. Our collective guess here seems to be that things turned upside down in a lot of places. There's no way to really know what would have happened if the bombs had fallen in 1983; Anderson, a quaint town in our timeline, could have gone any number of directions in such a scenario. I can't imagine mob leaders taking over small towns in Oregon and far northern California, but WWIII makes such a scenario sensible.

In reading through your comments, SouthWriter, I think I have come up with a scenario that might work well with your Piedmont proposal:

  • In the Carolinas, regional governments arise in Asheville and Greenville, forming the origins for two future nations.
  • Athens falls apart; survivors, many of whom either helped spark the violence that destroyed the city or fought violently themselves just to survive, wind up in northeast Georgia.
  • Survivors in the region migrate to where large towns and small cities are known to still be around: Knoxville, Johnson City, Asheville, Greenville...Toccoa...Anderson.
  • At some point, charismatic, racist leaders among the white and African-American survivors in the Toccoa-Anderson region amass enough followers between them to pull together forces that threaten everyone else, including surviving law enforcement.
  • The racist gangs, for lack of a better term, are able to appeal to others of their own skin color and scapegoat the other group (perhaps blaming them for the deplorable state of the world they found themselves surviving in).
  • Despite the best efforts of other survivors, and local law enforcement, the two racist groups, together barely more than half of the total population, possess the most arms and ammunition - in short, they have the means to enforce whatever they want to do.
  • The two groups come into conflict, and go to war. People, both part of the gangs and innocent people, die.
  • The whites settle in Toccoa (a city that pre-DD wouldn't have wanted the racists there) and the blacks in Anderson (again, a city that pre-DD wouldn't have wanted the racists there). Both groups begin to practice slavery and plot war against one another, their mutual hatred almost blinding them from even acknowledging the existence of Piedmont (although they, for a time, accept humanitarian aid from Piedmont).
  • The Piedmont Republic steps into the fray to end the burgeoning. But they're walking into the equivalent of Iraq. Piedmont tries peacekeeping for a short time, but both sides fight a guerrilla war against their "oppressor", even successfully launching terrorist attacks in Piedmont itself.
  • The Republic responds by going to war, one against two who are united only in their hatred for their respective enemy - again, more people die (military and civilian alike).
  • Although the casualties are light, Piedmont leaders and citizens realize that a) Piedmont is going to have to occupy Toccoa/Anderson for the forseeable future, and deal with a populace that doesn't want it there (as well as more guerilla and terrorist attacks) b) Piedmont is going to have to go all-out to destroy the two camps, a strategy that might work only because Piedmont has a huge numerical advantage (and more 'expendable' soldiers) c) Piedmont can hold option b over Toccoa/Anderson's heads to encourage them to stick to an agreement where they leave Piedmont alone in exchange for Piedmont leaving them alone.
  • The population of Piedmont has swelled due to the number of refugees fleeing from Toccoa and Anderson.
  • To this day, Toccoa and Anderson are immersed in a cold war, pulling back from all-out conflict in fear of total destruction - if not from the hands of the other, then from a Piedmont that now boasts an army ten times potentially as big as both cities combined, and is 50 times more powerful than both.

This may work, or it may need work. That's what the talk pages are for, after all.--BrianD 07:28, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Brian, I think that scenario sounds about right. I think that the bulk of the forces will be pulled from Clemson and Pickens County. This is because Clemson has an active ROTC, and a culture of racial diversity (at least in the University community). Having made great strides in the 70's, they would be aghast at the warring gangs running the two towns. The Greenville community would support Clemson, though, for both Anderson and Toccoa have Christian Colleges in them which would have had to have been over-run by the racists. These Christians, if they escaped with their lives and were not part of the slave labor forces, would run to Clemson for refuge. The word would spread to Central Wesleyan, North Greenville College, Bob Jones University, and Spartanburg Methodist, as students and faculty from Toccoa and Anderson sought places to continue their academic courses. A large army could be raised to quell the violence and end the slavery in the warring towns. The scenario of the "occupation" would only have to be maintained until the slaves had been freed. After that, the cities could be "left alone" in their segregated enclaves. A demilitarized zone, however, would have to be manned with Piedmont troops along both sides of the Savannah River.
I'll get to work on an article about the war of emancipation and the cold war that followed. --SouthWriter 19:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
SouthWriter - the creation of an Evangelical-run state makes sense for the region, but IMO the tone of the page should be more neutral. I'm specifically thinking of the "freedom from religion" part, where it should be clear that this is the opinion of most citizens, not of the "narrator". Overall the page should reflect an unbiased observer's description of the country. 207.63.140.254 15:25, January 11, 2010 (UTC) (Benkarnell, at work)
Hi, Ben, thanks for your input. I need to remember that we are basically building an encyclopedia of this alternate world. I see where I did insert the air quotes to present my opinion I will remove that bias to reflect a more neutral position. However, he leadership is not so much "evangelical" as it is conservative. Governments even today, at least in South Carolina, do not "do business" on Sundays. Some services, like postal services, are run on Saturdays, and commercial banks now also are open part or that time as well. Otherwise, there is a "five day" week for most of the government. Medical services, in their "regular" hours, are also on a five-day work week. Most "blue laws" were either still in effect, or just beginning to be abolished in 1983 (it started with Christmas shopping at the Malls, one of which opened in 1980 in Greenville). These were different in the different counties, Spartanburg having abolished the ban on Sunday openings first. Commercialism and competition drove the law makers to change the status quo.
Concerning divorce and abortion -- important family-oriented laws -- these, too, are as much conservative issues as they are "religious." Traditional values are like that. I chose to present these laws as having reverted back to the way the populous of the upstate, as a whole, would rather it be.
The issues of the drinking and smoking ages being changed, on the other hand, are a reflection of differing views of "Christian liberty." The Fundamentalist community, lead by Bob Jones University, of course, would have both drinking and smoking banned. The raising of the drinking age to 25 is more of a tip of the hat to liberals than to conservatives, for social conservatives are divided as to the use of alcohol in moderation. The reduction of the age for smoking, on the other hand, is a pragmatic decision to placate the tobacco industry which saw its base of customers shrinking. It was thought that with mandatory education, and loss of supply in the foreseeable future, the age for smoking would soon be a moot point. --SouthWriter 19:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

THank you for the info, southwriter. and i agree with Bens above point. the article is accurate, if what i've heard is correct and considering whhat i've heard about S.C IN my History course, it probably is, the article should be neutral in tone, whatever it may be describing. and about Humanism, i think thats a good thing, placing human before god. we exsist. i ndon't think god does. (in my opinion, which is why i aviod any article to dop with religions).--HAD 18:33, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with Piedmont being graduated, though I agree with Ben and HAD on the neutral tone. The Wiki articles ideally should reflect the tone that Wikipedia articles for real-life countries do: present the facts. Let the country speak for itself. If a 1983:DD country is full of humanists, or Baptists, and government policy and cultural morays reflects the peoples' values, then the article has to convey that. The article shouldn't be a glowing PR piece, but neither should it be a hatchet job. Otherwise, does anyone have any objections to graduating Piedmont?--BrianD 05:30, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that we have to do anything like Wikipedia. This site looks like WP, and we use infoboxes based on WP, but we don't have to follow them in everything. My point was that the project as a whole should not have a political agenda (other than, perhaps, the overall belief that nuclear brinksmanship is a Bad Thing). And when we write with our "omniscent narrator voice", it's best to leave our own biases out of it. However, this wiki does allow us to use formats other than encyclopedia articles: narrative, journalism, quotes & media... even opinion pieces would not be totally out of place if they were done right. SouthWriter, you might decide that you want to tell Piedmont's story in the voice of one of its inhabitants, in which case, the bias could flow freely. My original objection was only that the tone made it sound like 1983DD as a whole held a certain view on politics. Benkarnell 05:48, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Point taken, Ben. I agree with you on the Wiki not representing one particular viewpoint (other than MAD is Evil). Onto SouthWriter's proposal: does anyone have objections to graduating his article (and, have the previous objections been sufficiently addressed in order to do so)?--BrianD 16:19, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Also, SouthWriter, in lieu of you not having a talk page (yet) to leave this at, here is a link to the AltWiki editorial guidelines. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Editorial_Guidelines_%281983:_Doomsday%29 --BrianD 16:23, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Brian. I had been there already, but it doesn't hurt to revisit the basics every once in a while.
Thank you Ben, for understanding a frustrated writer's attempt at objectivity in a very subjective area of writing. I am, as I have said, attempting to write about what I know. That is not to say I have experience in fighting in "civil" wars or against terrorists, but I am attempting to project an alternate fate upon the world in which I live. I plan on taking the point of view of my own life as it would be if DD had come in 1983 in much of the telling of this story. However, that will largely be in presenting commentary as a participant -- perhaps as letters to the editor or journal entries. But with the "articles" in the "encyclopedia," I think I can manage to write them at least as objectively as a newspaper reporter. --SouthWriter 18:47, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
really hope this hsn't been too frustrating. I'm always afraid of becoming too dictatorial in how we treat new contributions. Overall we give new pages much stricter scrutiny than we used to - a good thing in my opinion for the TL as a whole, but maybe a little rough for newcomers trying to "break in"...
One trope we sort of inconsistently apply to his project is that we are all researchers that head different "departments" of the WCRB. I'll bet that in the 83DD world, WCRB reports have a bit of a reputation for describing even exciting places in dryy, scientific terms. *There*, maybe most people prefer the less accurate but never-boring travel narratives written by explorers and adventurers that brave the wilderness regions and live to tell about it (and make a small profit from book sales). ...Actually, travel narratives are probably a major genre again *there*. I think I'll add that to the Literature page.
Long story short, I think the Piedmont article is great. 207.63.140.254 19:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC) (Ben)

personally , i think the areticle is very good and worthy of graduation. my point about neutrallity was that we csannot alowe opionion to geet in the way of realism, which is roven by what happens when you try toi be liberal on conservatpedia. (as 9i discovered to my cost.P) --HAD 20:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

If there are no further objections, I'll graduate Piedmont (this is my first graduation, BTW, but I'm sure if I mess up someone will correct me :) )--BrianD 20:51, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Kiribati, Niue & Belau

Three more ANZC Associate States I made GOPZACK 23:31, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Norfolk's still just an infobox, but that 's OK for now. Tuvalu's good: I like that it still has such a "third world" feel, and I like all the cultural details. The "economy" section mentions Taiwan - I think the consensus has been that there is no Taiwan government anymore, since even if it was not nuked it probably would have been invaded by Chinese at some point. So the Tuvaluan workers probably didn't get any of those back wages. Benkarnell 18:34, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
You should get in on the discussion on Taiwan. So far its got Taiwan taking some advantage of China's situation and claiming some mainland territory.--Oerwinde 18:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions Ben, I have deleted the Taiwan references for now until what exactly happened to Taiwan has been confirmed. My plan is to finish Tuvalu today, then move on to Norfolk island and finally Kiribati. --GOPZACK 21:11, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate Tuvalu only, any objections? --GOPZACK 21:37, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Nope. Mitro 00:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'll add Belau to that list - since I had written so much Palauan/Belauan history in the Micronesia article, I figured I'd create the page. Now the Cook Islands are the only ANZC state without a page, hooray! It's funny that we're learning so much about these Pacific islands, yet most of Australia and New Zealand themselves remains a mystery. I guess it's just a big prject to tackle, since they're so important to the TL. The basic theme for Belau is that it's a somewhat ornery client state, which is reflected in its decision to push the native spelling of its name. Benkarnell 17:46, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate Norfolk Island only, any objections? --GOPZACK 22:21, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Most of the other ANZC associated state articles graduated without incident. Unless there is some objections I see no reason to not graduate these articles as well. Mitro 20:56, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
i am considering graduating this article--Owen1983 21:53, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
Most of Belau is copied from the already-canon Micronesia page. I mostly created the page in order to preserve what I had already written on the topic. The biggest new revelation is that Palau can be (as ANZC diplomats would describe it) "difficult". Benkarnell 23:01, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Graduated. Mitro 14:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Unity League

Article created by Owen. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

List of Presidents of The Commonwealth of Kentucky

I don't see anyone putting up a big fight over this but I shall give it a little while before doing anything with it just in case --GOPZACK 21:37, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ventura

Article I created. Riley.Konner 10:07, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections? Riley.Konner 12:30, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
Then I guess it's graduation day. Riley.Konner 20;04, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Boss Jones

Article on one of the fictional leaders of an MSP city state. Article created by an anon. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 13:34, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

None.BrianD 16:35, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Haiti

An article on Haiti that I will expand on in the future. Thoughts and comments appreciated--Vladivostok 21:51, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

History has been updated, the earthquake has also been taken into account.Vladivostok 19:05, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 15:28, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

None.BrianD 16:36, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Depeche Mode

Article created by Zeifodd. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduation? Mitro 03:43, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

Formerly an empty canon article, but an anon has begun to expand on the history. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Why are the US Virgini Islands a part of the ECF and not Puerto Rico in this ATL? The US Virgin Islands are practically right next door to Puerto Rico. Meanwhile both countries have a lot in common being both former American territories. Mitro 17:09, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps. Also, do you think that maybe Puerto Rico would have been attacked on Doomsday? As a US territory, it would be a valid target for at least a nuke on the capital city, if not one or two more. --DarthEinstein 20:36, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Having been to both the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico I can tell you both have quite different cultures. Their status as US territories would not help unite them after what happened to the US in this TL. While I could see the US VI’s joining Puerto Rico I think it's more likely that they would join the British Virgin Islands and the ECF. They are even closer and almost culturally identical. Plus even in OTL the US VI has more trade and contact with the Anglophone islands than it dose with Puerto Rico.--70.249.158.139 21:27, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well in all honesty I am not an expert of the area, but I assumed that since both places would retain their American governments post-DD, there would be some level of cooperation. Its possible they would even retain contact with Reagan and Bush for as long as they remained on the mainland. Mitro 00:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
The ECF seems like basically a federation of Afro-Anglo-Caribbean cultures, and the USVI definitely belongs in that category (here's a little descripion of the local creole.) PR's culture is OTOH definitely Hispanic. My understanding of the ECF's history is that the original members of the West Indies Federation decided to revive it and approached the formerly American islands; the USVI said yes, and PR said no.
One thing I've been thinking about lately: some of us, especially Mitro, have been saying for a while that South America should have more places where it has extended its influence - not dependencies exactly, but associated states or observer nations, just like Australia-New Zealand has. It occurred to me that Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are natural allies of the SAC. Benkarnell 18:23, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe Puerto Rico and other Hispanic states would have observer membership in the SAC. Mitro 23:32, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe eventually, but the SAC is still somewhat new. Wasn't it only established in 2004? They could apply for observer status in the near future, I suppose. --DarthEinstein 02:13, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Well, that is over 5 years. Enough time to attract observers, I'd think, especially if they already had economic ties with the South American countries. Benkarnell 02:35, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Also the SAC is the world's largest economy. Having free access to that market would attract a lot of nations. Mitro 02:58, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Very well. What about the Central American nations too? --DarthEinstein 03:34, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Well, Nicaragua and Costa Rica are spoken for: Nicaragua's more a Soviet ally, and Costa Rica has tried to balance Soviet and South American influences. Belize is an ECF member. We still have no idea what the hell's going on in Panama, although the eastern end of it was annexed to Colombia. But El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala are potential SAC clients. Benkarnell 03:41, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 03:48, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

None.BrianD 04:12, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

China

Not that I'm volunteering but has anyone created anything about survivor nations in China??

Verence71 20:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Only around the edges. There's a page for Tibet, and Siberia controls Xinjiang and Manchuria. --DarthEinstein 20:43, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
Well, only a northern part of Manchuria is a part of the USSR. Anyway, what happed to the Republic of China? --Grand Prince Paul II. 22:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

From what I can gather China descended into chaos after Doomsday with elements of the PLA fighting each other so perhaps China had a repeat of the post WWI Warlord Era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era

Verence71 00:08, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Republic of China is the official name of Taiwan, People's Republic of China being mainland communist china. Taiwan wasn't hit, but probably would have gotten a bit of fallout. Other than that I could see it being a major stabilizing force in southern China, stepping in to "claim their right as the true democratic government of China".--Oerwinde 05:24, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

According to a Singapore expedition, the capital of Taiwan was nuked. It can be assumed that the Taiwan government collapsed afterwards. Perhaps if the other cities were spared, it could become a successful survivor nation. --Jnjaycpa 06:02, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

What possible reason could there be for Taiwan to be nuked? An authoritarian government undergoing massive democratic unrest, with much of the world not even recognizing their political independence couldn't be much less of a threat to the soviets or NATO.--Oerwinde 08:35, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
I think that it would be nuked by China, if by anyone. --DarthEinstein 22:42, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
I just doubt Taiwan would be more than an afterthought when facing nuclear attack from abroad.--Oerwinde 00:33, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I think that just Taipei being nuked that isn't too unreasonable, though. --DarthEinstein 00:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

FYI: Taiwan (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 22:45, December 27, 2009 (UTC) Any objections to graduating Taiwan? Mitro 03:50, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Belarus

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 03:50, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Outer Banks

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

I JUST saw this while looking through the DD talk page. If the anon author is still around, are you still working on this article? I postulated that [1] Elizabeth City (northwest of Manteo) was a survivor community that had been discovered by Brazil years ago, and recently rediscovered by the LoN. I'd like to discuss your good ideas, so we are not conflicting with one another.--BrianD 16:01, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 03:52, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

None.BrianD 04:09, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Kurdistan

Formerly empty article expanded on by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article, despite being unfinished? Mitro 03:52, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oceanic Football League

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Despite being unfinished are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 03:45, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
None per se, as the AFL/OFL has been established as canon. But I would like to see Jnjaycpa's ideas for the league before we fully graduate.BrianD 04:12, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Mitro, I was wrong. We should go ahead and graduate as the idea for the league itself is canon. I would put a stub header in it though, to show that the author is working on the article. BrianD 20:55, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Pasco Free State

Created by KingSweden 21:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC) A small survivor community in eastern Washington, presuming the Columbia River Valley wasn't hit too hard.

Pretty much all the strategic locations were in the Seattle/Tacoma area so it should be good. I guess this would be a state that developed sometime after Utah kicked Spokane's butt in 93? Likely Spokane's major rival at this point.--Oerwinde 11:52, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, a blurb should be added to the page that acknowledges the known history of Spokane. If Spokane was making raids as far away as Utah in the 90s, probably this area was under their influence as well. Benkarnell
I was doing some research on this area and I came upon this: Hanford Site. According to Wikipedia this place was responsible for producing the "plutonium for most of the 60,000 weapons in the U.S. nuclear arsenal." I'm sure this place would be a target during Doomsday and the Tri-Cities that formed the PFS are pretty much right next door. There was actually fear OTL that the shutdown of the plant would cause an economic collapse for the three towns. Mitro 02:16, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
However, the Hanford site was practically shut down by 1983, having only one reactor mostly used for the production of electricity. The processing of plutonium was moved to the Barnwell site (Savannah River site), which was not mentioned in the WCRB report. I assumed that it HAD been a target, though, providing that the bomb that took out Augusta was not enough.SouthWriter 19:25, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
It's short, but I think it's been fitted quite nicely into the overall picture of the region. Benkarnell 19:29, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Dutch Wastelands

An article of mine. It's about the low-lying areas in the Netherlands that have become flooded into swampland Post Doomsday.--ShutUpNavi 20:09, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

I like it. Mitro 13:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
I'd have to agree with Mitro here. And no matter how much I dislike the thought of Groningen being under water, it does make perfect sense. Since this is mostly built up from canon material, I see no objections to canonise this. --Karsten vK (talk) 12:23, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
Wait a second, I just checked it on this website and the city of Groningen is actually at an average height of over 6.5 meters above sea-level. --Karsten vK (talk) 12:38, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of questions about the article. I think we should leave it as a proposal until Navi has a chance to answer a few of them. Mitro 14:41, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
The only unanswered issue is Groningen's elevation; the ones on the article's talk page have been addressed. So Karsten, are you saying Groningen's probably OK? Benkarnell 19:15, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I am basing my info on what would be flooded based on this map. Of course Wikipedia dose sometimes get stuff wrong. And as Karsten vK is from Groningen I think I can trust what he says more.--ShutUpNavi 17:48, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Bentwaters/Woodbridge Military Government

It's been brought to my attention that Mildenhall was such a large base that it would be targetted on Doomsday so I've moved my survivor to another US base in Suffolk.

Verence71 10:32, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

So if the name was condensed would it be.... Bentwood? :P--Oerwinde 11:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)



I've just got the joke!!!  :) On a serious point I'm thinking of shortening the name of the "nation" to Woodbridge Military

Government Verence71 19:55, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

It looks good to me - realistic scenario for an English survivor-state. My guess is that Ireland/the C.A. would contact them before their fellow survivors in Northumberland, since they're so small and local. Now how has the military command kept control for 25 years? It would have needed to recruit local people, established committees to manage food and education, and so forth. Benkarnell 22:12, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


So we have American Forces, completely cut off from any command structure, opting to take control of a county in England? Hmmm... They would not have heard the Gathering Order, but there radios work well enough locally. I suppose in the chaos, the locals would be grateful enough to have them there. After a while, though, I'd think the command structure would become a little shaky. A good concept, though. SouthWriter 18:19, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Lakotah and Provisional United States

Individual articles on the member states of the North American Union. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating Provisional Canada? Mitro 01:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
There's not a whole lot of new stuff here. I think it's well within your own prerogatives as creator/caretaker of the NAU. Benkarnell 19:38, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Joplin

A page for The Free State of Joplin --GOPZACK 20:41, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to graduate this, any objections? --GOPZACK 20:53, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

None. BrianD 20:59, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Automobile production

Article created by Owen. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 20:47, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
None. Let's put a stub on it because it clearly needs more work done on it, and should be done because this is a promising article. BrianD 20:54, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Quad Cities Alliance

I need to know. What would happen to the Quad Cities area if Clinton, IA (about thirty miles northwest of Davenport) was nuked? Would Davenport still be standing?

--Jnjaycpa 05:02, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I can't see much to nuke in Clinton, IA. If for some reason Clinton was hit, it would be a small nuke indeed, or maybe even a conventional explosive (Megaton TNT). Davenport would still stand. Being between mega-target Chicago and the capital of Des Moines, the quad cities would be an obvious refuge for those fleeing from the still standing suburbs of those targets.--SouthWriter 17:42, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I also decided to nuke Cedar Rapids, IA and Peoria, IL. This would virtually isolate the QCA from the rest of the USA for a while.

I think this will work--Owen1983 11:23, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
So far so good. I suppose we don't really need a reason to nuke Peoria & Cedar Rapids - nukes were flying everywhere at the time. What are the "Plain People"? They sound intriguing, and very post-apocalyptic. Are they nomads of some kind? Benkarnell 22:24, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

The "Plain People" are the Amsih and Mennonites. There are good number of them in SW Iowa. Perhaps no one else in America would be better equiped to handle a world without modern conviences because they already lived without them. Jnjaycpa 22:57, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 20:48, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

None. I would keep Clinton, Iowa as not having been hit. BrianD 20:52, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Cricket

I've started a page for the sport of cricket, which I assume TTL is most popular in the East Caribbean and in Pakistan, then in former India, Australia, New Britain and Wales.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I would imagine it's also popular on isle of Avalon off the coast of Guinea-Bissau which is populated by British refugees. I know for a fact that it's very popular with the British civilian population of Woodbridge Verence71 20:47, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Brian's sports scheme has already been graduated, but are there any objections to graduating this article? Mitro 20:50, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
One thing, if you do graduate - leave the stub heading. I am still developing this article. I also need someone to refresh my memory in regards to whether Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are functioning nations in TTL - if they are not, I need to remove them as cricket-playing nations. BrianD 20:57, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
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