Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics7

Countries/Regions/Politics

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Recent events in the USA

14 states

14 stars

Hello. GryffindorKrypton and I (edit: and Goldwind1) are going to be doing quite a bit on the recent history of the USA, since 2015 or so. Gryff has already contributed multiple USA-related pages on some cities and individuals, including the capital Torrington. I just finished work on the newest state, Cimarron. I think we've agreed on some of the broad outlines of recent events. Cimarron is going to be the third state to join since that time period, after the San Juan Islands and Cascadia. These expansions seem like the logical next step for the new US government. That brings the number of states to 14, and the flag to the one on my right. This section is for discussing those and other changes. Benkarnell (talk) 00:52, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

can we add Lincoln Lakota MSP Hannibal Pasco Nevada Navajo and Utah as statesOldsvito2999 (talk) 13:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I moved this comment from the bottom of the page to this section. To answer your question, I think most of us are in agreement that Pasco and MSP (now renamed Republic of Jefferson will be states pretty soon. I'm not sure about the others, which have much more developed identities as independent nations. Probably the idea of statehood is a constant topic of debate in those places, and if I had to guess I'd say that Utah is the likeliest of the set to want to join. False Dmitri (talk) 17:09, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Bring back Washington state as a US state, make astoria and northern msp part of oregon Oldsvito2999 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I edited Pasco and MSP pages that itll be us states soonOldsvito2999 (talk) 20:04, 13 March 2021 (UTC) i added california part of the future us statesOldsvito2999 (talk) 20:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Um Vito sir? You need to ask authorization and endorsement for doing such changes, else it's against the rules in place. SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:26, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, everything has to go through the Proposal process. Especially the USA pages, which are group property of basically everyone currently involved. We had agreed to a general plan for expansion, like I said with Pasco and Jefferson probably being the next ones. But please discuss your plans here before making changes. False Dmitri (talk) 23:21, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, seconding what Dmitri said. Plus Goldwind1 currently has custodianship over the MSP/Jefferson page. He has already discussed plans for eventually integrating Jefferson as a US state, it's just a matter of when, I think. Goldwind1 has also discussed Nevada as well, so that's on the table too. As Dmitri said, Pasco and Utah are also likely on the way.

But as SigmaHero045 has pointed out, you do need to go through the formal process of requesting custodianship of the individual pages, on both the page's talk page and on its original creator's talk page, then waiting a week or so for a response. For the nation as a whole, we're all collaborating.

But I want to give you a sincere welcome to the project! I hope you have fun with this! :) GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton so 18 states eventuallyOldsvito2999 (talk) 10:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Oldsvito2999, I forget to mention yesterday: you asked about Hannibal as well; I'm the current custodian, and I had written about the locals there being pro-unification. If I recall correctly, Zack (one of the original contributors, who still comes in every now and then) and I discussed merging Joplin (which is his creation) with Hannibal and some towns to form a new version of Missouri that would rejoin the USA together. There's also the US Atlantic Remnant, which canonically voted for US statehood 9 years ago, but has been in a state of political union with the US mainland rather than full statehood since then. If I remember correctly, somewhere on this talk page in the past year some of us had discussed moving forward with finally moving it to full statehood. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yes krypton make the new missuori a sate sometime and are you intereseted in my uncolonized americas pageOldsvito2999 (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Don't forget Lincoln's in the wayOldsvito2999 (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I think I had been the one asking about full statehood for the Virgin Islands. But others convinced me that the islands are too remote for that. It may have to wait at least until the USA has some kind of access to the Gulf of Mexico, or else more cheap and reliable air travel. False Dmitri (talk) 16:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the Virgins, much as they want it, just doesn't really make physical sense right now. Maybe something akin to a more powerful/independent otl PR arrangement? Get to eat their cake that way, but not offend the mainlanders.

I would say that Missouri and Arkansas are probably a bit far east at this point, especially given the "spilt" nature and influence of Kentucky.

Utah, Lakota, and Navajo, not really going to happen I suspect.

Arizona, NM, Southern Cali about the same as Ark/Missouri. I do know that Visalia and Chumash aren't interested, and areas east of there are under Mexican/Texan influence.

The CR.... that's probably a bit complicated. Barely a nation in many ways, really. I'd even avoid the area as a territory right now, imo. Maybe Napa instead? There's something there if memory serves.

MSP if they could get organized would work well, as noted.

Sierra Nevada, given Utah and the CR, I don't see playing "ball" right now. Too many factors, and they're doing pretty well as it is. Maybe the NAU?

Lincoln is actively hostile, and International Falls wouldn't be able to choose. Olmstead would be something the government didn't even want to consider, probably.

Given the annexation of the panhandle... surprised no one is bringing up Stillwater. Stable and nearby....

Lordganon (talk) 18:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Missed Astoria! Not interested, plus I can see Vicky/the new US liking them as a buffer anyways. Lordganon (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

So, does anyone have any ideas to help me flesh out Wyoming's history a little more? I would also like to ascertain exactly what counties make up Absaroka. When Wyoming is fully fleshed out, I imagine then I would like to work a bit on fleshing out Nebraska and the other states. Those articles are in major need of work. 2020ckeevert (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)Crook.

Native lands as of 1995 (map has been partly superseded?)

Torrington district within Goshen County

Absaroka actually has been mapped, though this map is vague and a bit confusing... but I think the intention is clear to make Absaroka consist of the easternmost tier of counties in both Wyoming and Montana. So for Wyoming, that would be the counties of Crook, Weston, and Niobrara. And Goshen County is still part of Wyoming, minus a small square centered on Torrington itself, as the second map shows. (And this means that I need to adjust the national map that I made.) False Dmitri (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Alright, that's quite helpful. I edited the area to be the current state minus the three northeastern most counties, though how big is the District of Torrington? Also, I would like help in adding in the history between 1984 and the start of the Lakota War.2020ckeevert (talk) 00:10, 27 March 2021 (UTC) Also, we need to begin work on the 2020 election. I have heard some people want the Oregon Democracy Coalition to try and establish a centrist third party, some think there might be an Indian party, and a nationalist party? Anyone have any ideas?2020ckeevert (talk) 00:13, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

The second map shows the size of Torrington within Goshen County. So it's not very big at all. (I just added captions to the maps.) The political party conversation on Discord was partly me complaining that keeping the same 2 parties was a missed opportunity. But yes, it would certainly be possible to retcon the history so that while the same 2 parties have dominated the presidency, there have been others, maybe more popular at the state or regional level. I think anything is possible, and an Indian interest party is certainly a possibility, as are the others that you said. False Dmitri (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey guys, when I designed the federal district size within Goshen County, it left a big chunk of area still part of Goshen County, which is rather large in OTL.

As for the 2020 election, last summer I'd started working on some proposals for a couple of possible candidates. One was Heidi Heitkamp. The other was Patrick Kennedy. Heitkamp offers the possibility of being the USA's first female President in the 2020 election, after an initial unsuccessful attempt in 2016. My Kennedy idea was based on how the original generation of 1983DD contributors seemed to have been positioning John F. Kennedy Jr. as the CRUSA chairman and eventual US President until evidence surfaced showing that he probably would've died on Doomsday. I did some research and found that Patrick Kennedy (Ted Kennedy's son) was in a place that wasn't directly hit, and theoretically could've survived, so I began putting together a proposal for him to basically take the place in the timeline that had originally been planned for JFK Jr. I admit that it's a longer shot than Heitkamp's story, but I think I found an interesting angle of how nobody before Doomsday expected him to carry on the Kennedy family legacy, until it's essentially thrust upon him by world events. That, plus his battles with addiction, could make for an interesting comeback story.

Also, since the USAR's current status seems to be similar to that of OTL Puerto Rico and other US territories, I was thinking about adding a mention into its article as well as the USA article about the USAR being able to vote on presidential primaries but not the general November elections, as is the case with US territories in OTL.

Let me know what you guys think! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:00, 31 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I could see alternate parties doing a bit better than otl, especially at a more local level, but... I doubt it goes beyond that. Certainly you're going to see more "regional" native parties, though I see those as being more advocate groups that normally endorse candidates, rather than run their own, though they would run one if they felt it needed. I say parties, not party, since that would probably go over better.

Both main parties in the new US can be called nationalist. It's the other ones that may have inklings otherwise.

Much as I like(d) the idea of the ODC running as a third national centrist party, I just can't see it getting anywhere outside of Oregon itself. Would be seen as an Oregon thing, I suspect - with a dash of too "out there" for the taste of many. Probably an advocacy group here, with more of a local following with regards to running candidates.

I think adding that line about the USAR would be a plan.

From the eastern (state) border of Goshen County to the center of Torrington is in the region of six miles - use that as the basis of the district, and we have twelve miles on each side, slightly bigger than the otl DC, which is/was ten on a side at creation. Big enough to expand plenty and leave wilderness galore, and doesn't absorb any other towns, falling a mile or so short of the small town of Lingle (which likely would become some sort of military center, ala~ Arlington). Torrington has roughly half the population of the county (6.5k/13k), and we also remove about 124 miles square form the county size, leaving 2,000 miles squared left or so. Even adjusting the size of the district established here, you still leave a ton of county behind. Move the county seat to Lingle or Fort Laramie, and all is good. (probably Lingle, given where people will likely move to)

Hate to say it, but while Patrick J. Kennedy would survive DD itself, I can't see him going past that very far. Andover isn't all that far from Lowell, a strike, to start, but... Have a look at the wind fallout map. That area is basically where all of it from Boston et. al. goes.... and we know it was bad enough from other articles (Vermont) that the Portsmouth area, just to the NE, to kill people in that direction before 1984 hits. I can't see him working out between those things.

If you want someone from outside this area, go for Brian Schweitzer, who was the D governor of Montana from 2005-2013 otl. In the early 1980s, he was mostly involved with setting up irrigation/farming in Saudi Arabia, among other places (he is on record as saying he went to more than thirty countries between 1980 and 1986) and his family has a ranch near Whitefish, Montana which he is very attached to.

Lordganon (talk) 07:02, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Panamanian Federation

I'm not sure whether this needs to be marked as a proposal or not. It's a fork of West Panama, a page that is "mine". It captures the recent history since 2011 (the last time I worked on it) and 2012 (the last time anyone at all worked on it). As I wrote the history on the West Panama page, I realized that it would work better split off and formatted as a "nation" article. The gist of it is that after Colombia took major steps to tighten its control of eastern Panama in 2012, and made their first major incursion into the west, the divided and bickering communities of western Panama finally got over themselves and formed a permanent union, which has been more successful than earlier attempts. False Dmitri (talk) 22:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I very much like it, it brings lore and history to a region that is not very highlated compared to the rest and is very resonable that Panamanians will bring themselves togheter and form a federal state for protect their state and let the world know that 'Panama no es muerta', plus with further attempts by the Colombians of getting on the other side of the canal i think anti-colombian resentiment might grow up, especially in nationalist circles and parites. Mal3ssio97 22:40, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Ossetia (1983: Doomsday)

I noticed that the Osettia Doomsday 1983 article is faulty.

Vladikavkaz was city is an industrial and transportation centre and merited a tactical nuke. It is a big and implausible plot device that "The capital city of Vladikavkaz was also hit by a non-nuclear cruise missile, though it largely missed." A whole fleet would be used in a city since a single one would take out only couple of factories (see the Iraq War).

My rewrite would run as follows: A 10kt tactical nuke hit the military airfield at Mozdok. a non-nuclear cruise missile hit Beslan Airport, the Vladikavkaz zinc production site's main plant and Vladikavkaz railway station. The 10kt tactical nuclear cruise missile that should have hit the city center came along, though it largely missed and exploded mostly harmlessly in the mountains north of the town of Tarskoye.

Didcot1 (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

...Most of that really isn't all that helpful, to be honest. I've made an adjustment to the article, not sure how we/I didn't notice this when I spruced it up to make it presentable for the original author.

As an fyi, btw, tactical weapons have a limited range.... far less than here. And missiles really don't come that small, either.

Lordganon (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

It was a legitimate correction, yet you still chose to (1) be rude, and (2) deflect from a mistake. Whatever, the mistake has been corrected. Archiving the discussion. False Dmitri (talk) 06:21, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Remaining former US states

I created pages for Maryland, Connecticut, and New Hampshire, following the format of other short pages like Massachusetts. These were the last of the former US states to not get this treatment, and they fill a gap on the Template:1983states which I recently made. I'm not listing them as proposals because they're short summaries of canonical info, but since they're new I ought to mention them here. Others could maybe add more information to them in the future. False Dmitri (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, Mississippi still does not have a general page either. The one that I linked describes a single surviving city-state. False Dmitri (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I made Mississippi. False Dmitri (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Archiving discussion, False Dmitri (talk) 15:19, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Egypt and Khemet

Cairo would not be the only target of the IDF! The Israelis may have taken a shot at the Aswan Dam and Cairo West Air Base to stop Egypt getting too strong for them to handle one the USA was no longer able to help Israel any more. To save cannon and lore it must be don discreetly! The proposed idea is that the IDF air-battle over Cairo West Air Base was a flop that caused little damage and the air-raid or missile strike missed the Aswan Dam by about a mile. As a result of this the Israelis will look as if they did something and neither the Egyptians or Khemeti will not lose anything they currently have. ~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

...Why would they do that? In 1983, Egypt has been at peace with Israel per the Camp David Accords for 5 years. If anything, it'd be the most secure frontier they have right after DD. Not that they are probably able to do this idea for a couple years afterwards, anyway. Lordganon (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

You're talking about the war in 1987, correct? False Dmitri (talk) 02:40, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

All the other posts he made at the same time as this mention 1983 as the date and are worded more or less the same, so... Lordganon (talk) 06:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

How about letting people speak for themselves. False Dmitri (talk) 06:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Seems to be a sockpuppet, I'm archiving the discussion and waiting for an explanation. False Dmitri (talk) 15:19, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Conflict in Britain

I'm making this section to discuss the ongoing development of Great British Civil War and Edward Poll, and the giant set of events being planned around them. This was begun by MrWoodward, but he's stepped away from the wiki. SigmaHero045 plans to revise and finish all this. For now I've archived the enormous yearlong discussion at Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Great British Civil War and Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Edward Poll. False Dmitri (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

The following is copied from the archived section. - False Dmitri (talk)

I have some thoughts about how this project could proceed further. I agree with the consensus from others about the reunification of England (or most of it, anyway) being inevitable for geographic and historical/cultural reasons, and the angle of New Britain playing a decisive role in that makes for an interesting story. However, I think this would work better if Queen Zara of Cleveland becomes head of state rather than Andrew, since Zara has remained in England with her mother since Doomsday and cannot be accused of "abandoning the homeland." Here's one way it could happen: the New British fleet arrives in England, as suggested by the previous editors, to put down Lord Protector Poll's claim to power. King Andrew goes along with them, thinking it would be good publicity for him to be seen leading his troops in the field. However, at some point during the conflict, Andrew is hit by a Pollist rifleman's bullet on the battlefield, and eventually succumbs to his wounds. This makes Queen Zara the next Windsor in line for the throne in a reunified England and also makes her the nearest claimant for the throne in New Britain, thus unifying the crowns. (It also works as a nice shout out to that other famous post-apocalyptic story, V for Vendetta, where Zara is on the throne as well, at least nominally).

There are two possibilities for how Zara's ascension might affect England-NB governmental structure afterwards: 1. England and New Britain could theoretically remain technically separate nation-states that share the same monarch (like the UK and Canada in real life), or 2. we could follow Mr.Woodward's suggestion of formally consolidating them into a United Kingdom of England and South Africa (or UK of England and New Britain), as he suggested. Personally, I think the second possibility is a bit more fascinating storywise. A United Kingdom of England and New Britain would be an interesting "1983DD twist" I think.

I also have a couple questions: If and when this reunion happens, should it use the pre-Doomsday version of the Union Jack, or perhaps one of the new suggestions by SigmaHero045 back in March 2020? I'd also suggest the possibility of maybe some fusion of the old Union Jack and the modified one that New Britain uses.

EDIT: I've created a proposal for how a combined version of the old and new Union Jack could look in the proposed United Kingdom of England and New Britain. I think it looks pretty nifty!

Also, does anyone have any ideas where the new English capital should be? New London is under CA control, I believe, otherwise I would've suggested it. Cleveland's capital Middlesbrough is one possibility, since Zara is already based there. But somewhere more central or in the south of England could work too. Anyway, I'm fascinated by the places this storyline could go. Let me know what you think. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:11, 4 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Still can't really buy this. The amount of hoops to go through alone is just a bit much. As some sort of internal Newholland crisis, maybe but more... eh.

I actually have to disagree with the idea that England unifying being inevitable. Smaller territories in Europe and elsewhere didn't otl, or didn't for a long time. Much of the unification of England was dynastic/political, not conquest, as well.

Atm, at least, its more of a Northumbria/Anglia/Celtic spilt. That does go along at least somewhat with the occasional call for various parts of England to have their own assemblies, like Wales and the other states.

At the very least, it's not happening right now. As we noted before, the Windsors aren't all that popular in much of atl England. In at least Southern England, its not impossible that they even join the Celts still.

It's basically impossible for New Britain to intervene in anything in the UK. Not only are their resources tied up in African matters, but they've sold off or scrapped most of their fleet in past years, so they really can't get any aid that would mean anything that far. That'd be like having otl Eritrea intervene in any kind of unrest in Europe today.

We've never really elaborated on it, but King Andrew does have a wife and children, married/born in SA. Zara's not his heir. Not that he'd be anywhere near a battlefield anyway.

Lordganon (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree - nobody in England would have much interest in Andrew. He left on his wacky scheme. Zara, on the other hand, has great potential as a unifying figure. And I've come down as being in favor of MrWoodward and Sigma's storyline where a strongman leader gains popularity in some of the English states. But I agree that the South African exiles won't be able to play any kind of role in it.

Regarding Andrew's family, I've actually done some preliminary things to flesh that out a bit more. At some point I'd like to write a separate page on the heir and probably have him/her be the reigning monarch by now. For now though, I did update Andy's page with a TTL wife. As the one who initially created that page, I didn't feel the need to list it here, but it's definitely a point open for discussion. She is Louisa Gordon-Lennox, daughter of the Duke of Richmond. I think that a marriage to a fellow exile from an aristocratic background would make the most sense. And the Gordon-Lennox family lives in Sussex, so they would be in a good position to join the exiles on Wight and then South Africa. Their kids, by the way, I was going to marry to local royalty - Zulu, Sotho, Swati, along those lines.

In general England still needs a lot of attention right now. We have a number of ideas still up in the air. False Dmitri (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)