Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Great British Civil War

I've made a page for the ongoing civil war in Great Britain that happened after Edward Poll was crowned Emperor of the English. Could anyone help with it please? Not sure how the numbers for a realistic army for each side would be. Thanks so much! MrWoodward (talk) 12:29, September 17, 2020 (UTC)

Fourth english civil war is a bit of mouthful, no? Maybe the British Civil War would sound better? Plus there hasn't ever been a British civil war, while there have been 3 English ones. Just saying.

Nay Mate Woody (talk) 17:51, September 17, 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, British civil war sounds better. Even the Great British Civil War sounds even more awesome and fitting for the situation.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 21:15, September 27, 2020 (UTC)

The problem with this page is that nobody of the users who want to do this control any of the countries. And even then, the sides of the civil war seem wholly and totally unorganized and outright uncanonical.

             Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:05, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

I like Great British Civil War, it sounds a lot better. Most of the events pre-civil war have already been discussed many months ago on this talk page and nobody who was still writing for 1983: Doomsday had a big problem with anything, and when there was a problem we discussed it here and fixed errors or elements many didn't like. If you do have ideas or points that you would like to introduce feel free to discuss them and we'll see how we can come to a joint agreement. Die dulci fruere! MrWoodward (talk) 10:48, October 2, 2020 (UTC)

• It's a goof idea, but it must match lore and cannon.User:Todetode :. ~ Under the Hood, Connect to Basic information? ~ Todetode (talk). 18:11, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

Edward Poll

Hello everyone! A question for everyone still active on 1983: Doomsday.

Regarding the situation of Edward Poll and his statement made at the OBN meeting. What do we think should happen? I wanted to write something but I want to know what the whole community thinks:

Edward Poll referred to himself in his speech as the "Imperator who will lead the way to a future reunified England", and the media claims it was an accident, that he was trying to say "leader" (which would be Dux) by using a sophisticated Latin word which supposedly came out wrong; while conspiracy theorists believe he was, in reality, subtly proclaiming himself "Emperor of the English".

Do you think he will actually give himself that title instead of it being a mere slip of the tongue? Would he maybe crown himself like Charlemagne? Would he have the support of the common people across the English survivor states with their own independent governments both monarchical and republican? Would he attempt to challenge King Andrew's legitimacy to the throne of England, and therefore provoke a massive dispute? Would Edward Poll become the next strongman? And most importantly... '''Could he eventually reunify England?

Please leave your thoughts! Let's discuss the future of England in 1983: Doomsday!

Nay Mate Woody (talk) 14:41, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

Love it! But I don't think he should be an actual monarch. Here's what I propose, you can all tell me what you think:

For his peacekeeping triumphs not only heading the Organization of British nations but also personally leading its army into battle suffocating insurrections like the one in Leicestershire republic, the committee grants him the honorary title of Imperator anglorum (as a nod to Poll's "slip of the tongue" as you said). Poll will have himself crowned Emperor of the Angles in a low budget coronation in an old and dilapidated sports hall using a cheap knock-off of St Edwards crown. HOWEVER, he will insist that he is not a monarch or a sovereign, he is only the president of the OBN (a peacekeeping organization, not a state or entity). Its like Charlemagne-ish, as you said. So far it's only an honorific title.

However. After a couple of months, here's where things start to get weird. Poll would actually start to take it seriously, and would even send King Andrew a formal letter or telegram telling him (to put it informally, with balls of steel) that his rule over the English people is illegitimate because of the Commonwealth’s lack of presence for many decades. “You may be the legitimate sovereign of the British Union and head of the Commonwealth, but you are not the rightful sovereign of England”. This would create an enormous divide among the entire British population worldwide between those who supported the head of the House of Windsor and son of the Queen and those in Great Britain who supported an English Emperor chosen by the people of their homeland. What do you think?

FiteOwl (talk) 12:26, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic!!! I'm all for it. When I first read it I googled him and Poll isnt a noble or a royal in any way at all. However, reading what is written about him in this timeline, he is:

1. The head of an organization which has done a fantastic job of uniting and maintaining the friendship between the successor states.
2. An excellent military leader (having personally lead battles himself both defending the member states of the OBN and suffocating separatist movements) and a super charismatic politician.
3. A man who has the support of the people. The common people of (whats left of) England.

The English people have chosen him as their Charlemagne. Their honorary "emperor". Strength to Edward Poll, Emperor of the Angles!!!

Zukushaman (talk) 19:10, March 5, 2020 (UTC)

I have just been discussing this topic with SigmaHero045 and we have both agreed that it would absolutely lead to a civil war in Old Britain, because Cleveland, for example, is ruled by Zara Tindall who is, in essence, a Windsor and a close relative of King Andrew. She would 100% side with her uncle Andrew. In the event of a civil war, may I also point out that the Windsors would be victorious in every way because of the popular support and the longing for a UNITED Kingdom again like the good old days. The United Kingdom of England and South Africa.

If this civil war happens, this is how I believe the factions would be:

Windsors	Pro-independence successor states	Pollists
New Britain  Cleveland File:Northumberland flag.gif Northumberland  Southern Scotland  Duchy of Lancaster  Westmorland Democratic Republic of Lindsey	Newolland  Woodbridge  Southern England File:158px-Derbyshire flag svg.png Matlock	OBN Supreme Council
Financial support:  Norfolk		Financial support:  Essex

Do you all agree?

MrWoodward (talk) 19:32, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

We did agree that Poll wouldn't want to be an actual monarch though. His ideal plan is this: the successor states of Old Britain would be like the Holy Roman Empire: a decentralized union of independent territories with their own governments and economies who would be members of an alliance (the OBN) under the rule of the Imperator Anglorum: Poll. Whether it is an elected position or a hereditary one, you decide what it is.

Also, in this possible civil war. Wouldn't Woodbridge be supporting Poll? From what I gathered from the OBN page, Edward Poll's leadership shared a lot of its views with the government of Woodbridge, and under him the OBN did nearly everything that Woodbridge proposed. If I were in that situation and if I were the Prime Minister of Woodbridge I would be super happy! I'd absolutely support the Pollist faction at least financially.

FiteOwl (talk) 21:47, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

I actually said Woodbridge would be supporting Poll. I'm the actual one behind the idea of this civil war (but credit for him making a good looking template illustrating it and approving the idea and pitching it here because I didn't have time yesterday). Following our disscussions, he made this thing with quite a few changes from my pitch (there's a non officialy canon country in there when I just asked him what Norfolk actually was because of confusion). Here, I'll post all my arguments regarding this, spoiler alert: Having Poll as a popularly beloved choosed monarch for England is bogus in terms of realism (saying otherwise is rejecting a lot of cultural and social context into the mix).

"Edward Polls would NOT be even a somewhat popularly approved as a monarch. Simply because of a deep cultural attachment to nobility and aristocracy in the English culture (just look at the House of Lords) and I don't think Polls have noble heritage. It would be more HIS action rather than a divise but somewhat popular decision. Many dioceses still recognize Andrew as their leader (Anglican church). In tradition, the royal is the head of state because of being the head to the church, A civilian couldn't fill that role with no widespread support outside of a very few ultranationalists. There's a reason why the post-DD states are mostly [correction: many of them are] monarchies by actual nobility. After a conflict like the Leicester war, they want comfort, they want to get closer to the pre-DD England. Long history of England before DD proves the affection and importance the monarchs [families] have there. Imagine how fueled the popular disscussion in New Britain would be, very nationalistic (the good non-chauvinist kind) ideas of "going back to the old country" would surge in approval [in face of a betrayal of english codes]. The fact that they left Old Britain kinda becomes a regret in public conscience (not out of hate towards Africans or South Africa but of having lost something fondamental to who they are) and in politicians circles. It's a trigger moment (kinda like the brexit moment in our timeline ;) ) that complety changes public perspective. Look at King Andrew's visits in the early 2010s in Old Britain: He's still beloved by many MANY people and actually inconsciously shows an attachment for the monarch towards the old country. Cleveland is lead by a relative of Andrew, how would she react to such a thing in plus of the popular hate? Would she invite Andrew to annex Cleveland in resistance to such takeover of power? To reunite England and New Britain? A civil war WOULD broke out (see the importance of cultural and sociological factors in history?) and by popular support and better military, the Windsors WOULD win. It just makes more sense and would be a torrific way of ending the 2010s political turmoil in the region. New Britain rebecoming the United Kingdom...but the United Kingdom of England and South Africa (as an equal constituent country)."

"people love Poll as a new prime minister of some sort, a return to normalcy in terms of civilian power. But for him to pervert the codes of the royalty sacred to english culture will NOT go well for him. It's one thing to be the next de facto prime minister of England, it's another thing to pretend to be its monarch without royal blood who'll be the head of the influencial anglican church that mostly recognize Andrew as the king. This would be considered an attack in times of instability to the english identity following a full decade of war, thing that Andrew and his relatives on the old Britain would definitely be attached to (or will be attached again under pressures from fired up nationalism). The civilian populace of Old Britain and New Britain clearly realize right now the momentum to reunite the kingdom as it used to be before DD that's at their doorstep (and how important tradition is important in restoring the English national culture and attachment). Also, Cleveland and Northumbria would definitely be on the Windsors side because of their monarchs being relatives to Andrew who are also attacked in their legitimacy by Poll's power fever and who whould benefit by being under an Andrew-led kingdom.

It would play out like this I think : Woodbridge, Newolland (because of a non noble monarch), southern England (popular local anti-monarchy sentiments) and Matlock (because of their bad humans right records, almost fascist governemnt and crooks in charge that would lose power and governement under a democratic human rights respectful England) vs New Britain, Cleveland, Northumbria, Southern Scotland (dependency upon Northumbria and popular love for the southern neighbour), Lancaster (because of the legacy of the Lord-Lieutenant), Westmorland (protectorate of Lancaster) and Lindsey (not for that long because they re litteraly surrendered by Newolland, you see how a conflict would end between the two). Essex would just stay neutral because of their isolationist attitude. The New London part of the Celtic Alliance would discretly with partisans of the Windsors inside the union, contrary to the neutral stance of the Union itself, financially support the Windsors side. I can't really say much about Norfolk and West Suffolk because I can't really grasp who they are. Also, is the Ipswich Incident still going on? If so, that would be a divise factor against the pollists. Both sides would try to win popular favor in the lands that are under no one's control in Britain since Doomsday (the big light beige section between the celtics and the other british nations). These stateless communities would see in Andrew a saviour coming back with the hope of having things as they used to be before 1984 (how could the Pollists convince people that weren't under the OBN control that this random dude no one there heard from can be a safe monarch when the windsor king is there?). A non-heavily opposed Edward Poll is unrealistic, the post-doomsday world is no excuse to do things that makes no sense (aka 1989 War timeline)."

There are my arguments and the original, realistic pitch for the civil war that mirrors the instability of Brexit in our TL. Also there's a term for loosely centralized unified state: a confederation. The technology and communications status in 2020 does however permit a more unified centralized state right now. Just saying.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:35, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

First, we must be clear about the context leading to such a war (because we must remember: this is a very VERY major turn of events in the course of England's history here). This is the first large-scale war in a long time and thus, one where every details is thrillingly interesting and important. And this is where a first problem comes in: the status of Norfolk. In such a large-scale where every single line of detail in the context that leads to it is important, having Norfolk non canon would mean that after creating the whole war thing in all captivating way with twists and small realistic details we'd have to rewrite it all over again to include Norfolk role in influencing what came after it (even if it's minimal, the butterfly effect). I think Norfolk must be 1) canon 2) complete with its professionaly made and believable different history, culture and place in the region (altough brief because the TBA seems, according to its very small history, to have annexed it very early on). And for that we need to do the same process that was used in the worldbuilding of the other countries in Great Britain: taking the proper time and attention to realism and detail in accordance with the creator of the country's article will and creating as a result a captivating part of the world for readers. Because every single detail, every line of defense can come back later as an advantage or disadvantage in such a war (also the social impact all this would have). I don't think it will be long though (but proper authorizations must be done and it must not create contradictions with other articles, no matter obscure).

Now as for the conflict itself. I'll fix the template for it to show my vision so see what you think. The OBN is supported by Newolland, Woodbridge and Southern England because of either anti-Windsors misunderstandings that are prevalant in those parts of ex-England or the will of the monarchy of Newolland to support a unification where it could keep its privileges in a legitimization of their power (where one does not need aristocratic lineage to be a aristocrat, aristocrat that can even be a pretendant to the whole throne under such a system). In other words, to be able to have concessions of power in a England unified under Poll that would fit with their worldview. Matlock is a third side who's kinda obligated to help the pollists versus the biggest threat of the Windsow unionists to their fascist crual rule that doesn't respect human dignity, it's still a third side however. Essex governement is neutral officially because it just want to be its own thing and be left alone outside of the whole unifying process. That doesn't mean there's private individual and under-the-rug military and especially financial support from private individuals there or in the Celtic Union or anywhere else.

Windsors	Pollists	Rogue states	Neutral
New Britain  Cleveland File:Northumberland flag.gif Northumberland  Southern Scotland  Duchy of Lancaster  Westmorland Democratic Republic of Lindsey South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands	OBN Supreme Council  Newolland  Woodbridge  Southern England	File:158px-Derbyshire flag svg.png Matlock Various small raiders groups	Celtic Alliance (officially, unaware of New London's actions) Essex (officially) ADC
Financial support: Celtic Alliance pro-Windsor New London citizens and local government (secretly)	Financial support: Essex (secretly)

And for the flag of such a unified England, southern Scotland and South Africa under King Andrew, I've got two suggestions even if I preffer personally the first one. Wich one is the best:

or

Pleased to hear your arguments.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:32, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I really like where this is all heading. So just to clear it up: the end goal for the Pollists is to have Edward Poll as Emperor of the English people but still respecting the other monarchies of the successor states, right? Holy roman empire vibes here. Obviously they will lose this war but still its a fun idea.

On the subject of territorial subdivision after the end of the British civil war, will the former successor states become "shires"/counties like they used to be? (Leicestershire being the example in my head right now because of the turbulent episode it has recently experienced and the short-lived communist republic it was under)? Will they be provinces (like for example the Province of Newolland, the Province of Cleveland), this way somewhat respecting their previous autonomy? 

And on the subject of the flags, I really really like the second flag. Its cool it respects the African tribes of South Africa incorporating that gold on the St Andrew's Cross.

Finally the UK can unite again, its time.

Zukushaman (talk) 12:12, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Here's how the war should start: the football stadium coronation. I think that's a great idea by FiteOwl which is controversial enough to grab the Windsors attention and spark outcry everywhere. Cleveland and Northumberland will tell New Britain about it, Andrew I will answer with basically "Yes let's sort this out ASAP this is madness. Assemble the vehicles. We're heading back to Old Britain we're taking it back". That's when everything kicks off. Opinions? Hong Xiuquan (talk) 14:14, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. I'm for it. It's crazy enough to start a war, and we're looking for a cause so that could be a factor. MrWoodward (talk) 16:53, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Blue = Newolland, Green = Woodbridge

West Suffolk and Babergh

West Norfolk and West Suffolk were territories that were controlled by the TBA but were succesfully regained by Woodbridge and Newolland (West Norfolk) and Woodbridge and Essex (West Suffolk). To begin with the areas were jointly run by the successful nations but over time they were divided vetween them. West Suffolk consisted of the OTL districts of West Suffolk and Barbergh. Babergh is now part of Essex and West Suffolk belongs to Woodbridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Suffolk_(district)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babergh

--Verence71 (talk) 17:27, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

Ok the Norfolk page definitely needs to be corrected then. I agree with the idea of having the war start with the football stadium coronation, that will be the last straw that starts the war, that brings King Andrew over from New Britain back to the isle. MrWoodward (talk) 16:49, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

I've made a start on that

Verence71 (talk) 17:16, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

Ok I see good progress here. Now in what would consist this "stadium coronation"? Why would it take place here? What led to Poll and his supporters wanting deciding to it exactly this way? Perhaps they thought about it because of showing to the public and in television channels a sense of scale and prestige and popular support in order to seduce the public? Show them how he can gather people around him (and flattering his ego about having a large crow to love him), show them the incredible emotions of being part of large unified crowd not seen since the 26th of september 1983 (first time for many) that would overwhelm them in wanting more of that (therefore wanting more of HIM) of having the sensation of him being capable of doing things greater and more ambitious than anything before. Also, since being in a stadium, a certain populist entertainment feel to them. Except.....the galvanisation of the crowd...wouldn't exactly go the way they thought it would go. In a crucial miscalculation proper to history with a capital H, this is how I imagine it would go (warning, it is very long):

Everything started on the 17th of december 2019 at Woodbridge in a meeting between premier Christopher Mole and Edward Poll. The region of England just came back from a terrific war against the Republic of Leicester in October and Newolland assisted by the OBN (if I'm correct) and military forces from all England are still stationned there, helping rebuilding the place and stopping local protests. Mole said to Poll that the situation made him realize something and that he invited Poll to discuss the future of England. Mole said that he feared instability and insurrection that Britain knew for the past decade would continue endlessly to happen unless, he said, the whole England is reunited under one banner again. That's something that Poll would say he actually is agreeing with before explaining that he thought about the idea for a long time and came to the conclusion that it would be the inevitable next step and a logical idea that would have widespread support among the english people (especially in the older generations). That's where Mole would interrupt him, saying that's where he partially disagrees with him. He says that a united republican England would have the same problems as the current mosaic of countries: a lack of centralized popular vision that would uplift the english people into healing the scars of Doomsday, uplift the people into feeling again a patriotic proudness in their country that would let them regain and surpass the quality of life and general ambition that was present before the fateful 1983 day. Into feeling...complete inside and confident in the future. Poll, confused and intrigued, would ask what did he thought was missing in his idea? He replied: a monarch, an english monarch that would restore the aristocracy integral cultural part in England. After Poll asked in shock if he suggested to let the Windsors restore the integral pre-DD english monarchy knowing the popular opposition in the southern England, Mole responded that he wanted HIM to be monarch. He laughed, thinking it was a joke. However, as he realized Mole was serious about this, things got heated up. After a heated argument and objection from Poll, Mole reportedly (according to local legend after one maid testified later after the war about how all this mess started) started convinced him with a metaphor about his coffee he was about to drink: he said that a republican England would be like his current black coffee, hot and crude, lost in violence without a unifying vision, and (after putting some milk into his coffee) would say a monarch-led England would be coffee with fresh milk, pacified, unified, civilised, clarified enough to see a future, delicious enough to drink. "And especially not spoiled with age like the Windsors are", he add as he drank it. Still unconvinced, he politely left the meeting as the idea continued however to be in his mind. This event is known by later historians, named after popular naming of the event, as the december coffee meeting.

After a month of lobbying from Mole to make Poll accept the role of king of England and Scotland by getting secret endorsments from politicians across the south-east half of England (including a private endorsement by the royals of Newolland who foresee that the reunification of England is inevitable and that one led by the Windsors would deligitimize their power when one by Poll could be benefitial for them, giving them even the possibility of higher power and even possibility to be king/queen of the entire England), Poll finally gives in to their arguments and now believe he's the right man to be king: political experience, popular love across all countries of England for his leading role in the OBN and against the TBA/Sons de Montford that brought stability and security to the region, (perceived) popular demand for a renewed and less traditional monarchy where non noble could be monarchs, as well as him being anglican (since being king of England is being king of the church). And, doing a press conference in a OBN event, he said his famous quote that ended the event, with the goal of accustoming the public over the idea of him a monarch without directly affirming it, this way : "We, british nations, are the guides to a reunified England and I'll be the Imperātor anglōrum who will lead the way". This is when things get really sour, preluding the war to come.

With all the buzz in the medias about this quote possibly being a hint about his intentions to become monarch, conflict starts occuring at the OBN: many criticise Poll on how they weren't consulted for such a blunt, radical and out-of-nowhere decision (the buildup having been carefully made by Pollists so they didn't reach potential non-Pollists ears). Debate and infighting ensues as Poll denies wanting to be emperor (promises of high glorified power having corrupted his honesty). The word spread like wildfire in all of the British Isles population and in rare newspapers that have the means to talk about international issues around the world, making it a worlwide heated debate. By the day after the speech, the news reaches New Britain's population and reignite there the debate about the restauration of the monarchy. Many (as I said) now start to feel that they left something behind on who they are by leaving Old Britain decades ago.

Public figures in New and Old Britain starts announcing their views on the subject. King Andrew sure received before the speech a telegram of Poll stating his intentions but despite his worries about how Old Britain situation could go dire in the near future and not being sure on how to tackle this as he can't believe this, his inner circle convince him to keep it secret from the government and population in order to avoid sending oil into the fire that could still be countained. Public figures and governments in Old Britain starts taking positions on the issue, many in Newolland, Southern England and Woodbridge make annoucements stating they'd support Edward Poll as king if he reunified England, accompanied by anti-Windsor propaganda labelling them as traitors and cowards that gave up their country unlike Poll who'll make Britain turn the page on the depressive effects of DD. On the contrary, Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster have quite the opposite opinion, calling on Poll to cease his power game for a power he was never prepared for nor have the heritage to obtain, for the greater good of England. Many discussions occur in the Windsor royal family as this directly concern them: should they reunify England under their family once more? King Andrew hesitate to answer calls to war of reunification as such act of attack would be against his and his country's values of democratic dignity and anti-warmongering stance. He also quite deeply regret the wars of expensions in South Africa of the 2000s on the values and image of New Britain with all the victims it made, he doesn't want to betray his ideals another time. Northumbria and Cleveland united royal family agreed to let go of their projects to form the independant kingdom of Albion and to back Andrew if he decided to reunifiy England under his banner, viewing this as the better choice for the citizens of Britain they love to let their personal interests out of the question for the greater good of England. On the third day after the speech, things can't go back, Poll is thirsty for power and admiration and nobility and the ends will justify the means from now on for him.

On a emergency council session in the OBN, he steps up amoung the criticism from what will become Windsorists nations in the war and officialy declares that he will, in fact, be the king of England, explaining it is a logical choice for a logical step forward and criticising (albeit hypocritically) the representatives of Cleveland, Northumbria and Lancaster for favouring their monarchs familial "little privileges of the middle ages" over "the proud english people". When a representative of Woodbridge (one that wasn't considered pollist enough to be made a partisan of Poll before his speech) standed to denounce Poll as doing a coup d'état against the British nation herself and her democratic dignity, he was forcibly put back into his chair by other pro-Poll representatives telling him to "shut up baboon lover(racist slur against New Britain's friendly attitude towards its africanization of British culture), you don't know what you're talking about" before harassing him. A woman representing Lancaster decided it was enough and announced she boycotted the session. Poll and his crew, having already a plan for such a case beforehand, announced that it wasn't a choice of wether they approved his plan or not: it was an order, as armed soldiers that pled allegiance to Poll blocked the exits. He demand they allow him to become the official de jure and de facto king of England as their respective countries politicians will be rewarded with great wealth and power over their country under his Decentralized Kingdom of Great Britain model....if they want to exit this room that is. Southern England, Newolland, Essex and Woodbridge immediately and proudly (their governments having made a deal agreeing behind closed doors that they recognize Poll as king of their country if they could maintain power over local issues) announce they accord the full right for Edward Poll to be the king of their country while others say they officialy cut ties with the OBN and the Pro-Poll countries. Since they abandonned their power in this decision, Poll tell the soldiers to let them go. Meanwhile, in New Britain, the word is out long enough that politicians demand the king to declare war on Poll and restore the British nation as protests in favour of the reunification of New Britain and Old Britain are widespread and many people in a social movement nolstagically retell publically the great military and cultural exploits of the old United Kingdom. Even africans start feeling they could be a part of this reunified Britain as equal non second-class citizens (thanks to the record of New Britain of making them welcomed in its culture). Andrew still refuses to invade even as he receive messages from his relatives in Old Britain of the situation as they officially cut ties with OBN countries and Poll, begging him to stand against his usurper.

Poll announce after to all the englishmen and women to gather together tommorow at the stadium (wich one? you decide guys if you're still reading this), with big televisions and radio channels being there to transmit the event. He says that this day he'll reveal the commonly agreed, by all countries of England, monarch for all of England; all of England will soon in a historical event be reunited once more for a new golden age free from the past. Media and people, unaware of the official unethical backing of Poll by certain countries, joyfully celebrate and wild speculations arise about who the monarch could be. Andrew? Zara? Linda Harrison? George? A vocal group demand Edward Poll as the monarch in the south of the country, backed by several lobbied medias there while certain medias in the north fear that Poll could become the monarch if his speech wasn't actually a metaphor and he wanted to become king. Then, the speech of Poll occured, announcing live that he was "choosen" as the new king of England, telling his great works on post-DD Britain contrary to the "pesky cowards that are the Windsors" and how he'll unite in a confederate new way the country against the Celtic Union. With him as king on top of the strong local governments that'll deal with local justice, application of law, taxes, services and administration while he'll solely oversees all the good going of the country in non-domestic affairs: foreign policy, education, legislation, executive power and military. 

After he end his speech and said "Long live the king! God bless the king!" expecting generous applauding and approval, he received instead omnious oppressive silence from the crowd. Then, clashing voices of celebration and hostility rise in a cacophony. The passions rise up, two sides form, verbal disputes erupt between them until violence follows. A large-scale violent mass riot erupts, as people flee the scene screaming while others fall down the steps to their death or die by being beated up or stomped to death. A group of people peacefully marches towards Edward Poll, demanding to come back on his decision and to tell his supporters to stop fighting followed by another who wants to attack him. Fearing for his life, he orders his soldiers to come shoot them all at sight. The rest, with the deadly fighting in the stadium, leaves the rest of the world with the shocking sight of the brutal massacre of peaceful protesters live on TV/radio. Edward Poll flees the scene as the supportive governments declare their full sovereignty to be over (with the exception of Essex who made an agreement to help Poll in exchange of independence) and that they'll apply wartime measures, controlling temporarily all the media (censuring on time the bloodshed of the stadium declaration) and abolishing parliaments as police patrols the streets under the orders of Poll surogates. Violent protests shake these countries as Pollists people helped by the military and police crush down dissent. Cleveland, Southern Scotland, Northumbria, Lancaster, Westmoreland declare war on the Pollist countries in reprisals as popular support for war explodes under the disgust of the new king's actions. Andrew have enough and, in an emergency session of parliament, backed by popular support from politicians and civilians, declares war on Edward Poll for violating human dignity and democracy, conscription is voted. 

That's a good idea on how I see the war starting, I know it's LONG (worked on this all day Lol). I'm proud of that.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. You made it sound truly shocking and definitely something that could be the cause of a war. As for the stadium, possibly the one in Kings Lynn? Anyway, you have my vote of support. Keep up the brilliant work! MrWoodward (talk) 13:32, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean The Walks??

[https://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/conference/conference-north/king-lynn-town-the-walks.html https://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/conference/conference-north/king-lynn-town-the-walks.html

Verence71 (talk) 17:58, April 4, 2020 (UTC)]

Nah mate you need an indoor sports hall. A covered stadium. FiteOwl (talk) 19:49, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

The best I can think of is the Sir David Wallace Sports Hall at the University of Loughborough although in this timeline it may be called something different

[https://www.lboro.ac.uk/sport/facilities/sports-facilities/sports-halls/ https://www.lboro.ac.uk/sport/facilities/sports-facilities/sports-halls/

Verence71 (talk) 12:46, April 5, 2020 (UTC)]

Cool. That'll be fine. Loughborough is alright because it was the temporary capital of the Republic of Leicester until the OBN came in and shut the whole thing down. I approve. MrWoodward (talk) 14:30, April 5, 2020 (UTC)

So as I understand it alhough the governments of Woodbridge, Essex, Newolland and Southern England are backing Poll but not everyone within those nations are?? Is it possible therefore that when the war breaks out there are some forces in those states that will openly declare for the Windsors??

What form of government will England have after the war?? 

Verence71 (talk) 13:41, April 6, 2020 (UTC)

You're right Verence. I'd estimate a 60% for-40% against ratio in these countries. The majority of dioceses, even in those places, still recognize Andrew as the rightful head of the anglican church (and therefore head of the English kingdom). They'd definitely be part of a dissent against the regime of Edward Poll (think like the resistance of the catholic church against the authoritarian regimes of Argentina in the 80s and in the Phillippines now) and Poll and his now puppet-once sovereign ministers would make sure to try to crack down on them. Violent protests erupted initially against such an apparent coup and takeovers over their once sovereign country, but the army, police and Pollist radicals of counter protests silenced them down. Those persecuted includes: sovereigntists that want their post-DD country to not be part of this England, Abolitionists that refuses to be again under a monarch (particularly present in Southern England, don't ask me why) as well as Windsorists (clearly seeing that the Windsor would maintain democracy and traditionnal nobility in England), anti-Poll members of clergy, Communists, Anarchists, Pacifists and Intellectuals (who clearly see that under the Poll regime, the rule of law would be over, with the local governments having immense power to inforce without resistance any order of an absolute monarch). Resistance cells form against Poll's England akin to French resistance during WW2. 

I think it would be logical with such arguments that there would be forces in those countries that openly are against Poll but the initial, carefully crafted to happen, impulsive pro-Poll reactions and arrests by the forces of order would quickly silence/censor them or push them to be more secretive and undercover. That momentum build before the takeover was a exploit, taking extra care for the word to only spread in favourable ears and to discretly take control of the local media to gently push the general narrative in favour of Poll (by stating the need for a potential monarch in order to stabilize the country, valuing his past actions, playing on the fears of people that would be best to benefit the cause, trashing the Windsors etc.). 

For a post-war government for England, I think a pre-DD governement would be best (and that's fitting with the promise of the Windsors side: bringing England back to where it left of and even, with the New Britain experience, correct its flaws). It would be a parilamentary system with a house of commons and a house of lords (a good thank you gift to the type of aristocrats that supported Andrew) with the king of Great Britain (since it includes Southern Scotland) having a symbolic role. Except of having England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as constituant countries, it would be England, Scotland and South Africa. Overseas territories would nominate a deputy to represent them in the British parliament. Altough frankly I think it's a bit soon to decide that since that war would probably only end in 2022-2023 and we're just in 2020. 

Also is the Ipswich conflict still going on? The invasion of the Isle of Eels? Or were they forgotten before they actually ended?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:19, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Oh they are both over long ago.  The end of the Ipswich Incident was that Woodbridge took control of Ipswich from the gangs/clans that were controlling it at the time.  Political and military corruption was discovered in the aftermath which led to the governing Conservative Party almost losing their majority in parliament in the General Election that took place the following month.

The Invasion of the Isle of Eels was over by the end of July 2011

Verence71 (talk) 09:30, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Yes the end of this is that the UK will finally be reborn (ish), with its pre-DD parliamentary government and the Windsors back on their throne. Poll would be arrested and put in custody (where you can decide), along with the rest of his closest people. What about the parliaments of Newolland and Woodbridge? Would their MP's be integrated into the new UK House of Commons? And as for the Ipswich Incident, it needs urgent updating.

MrWoodward (talk) 12:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

I've just updated the infobox on the Ipswich Incident which is a start

[https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ipswich_Incident_%281983:_Doomsday%29 https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ipswich_Incident_%281983:_Doomsday%29

Verence71 (talk) 12:58, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]

The peace talks, the dismantling of Emperor Edward Poll's plot and the negotiations about the reunification of the UK would all be settled in the Treaty of Swannington, in the town hall. Zukushaman (talk) 12:50, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the choice for the city. These sort of things are usually done in a neutral third-party country outside of the belligerent countries. New London in the Celtic Alliance would make a better choice I think (it's even in the interest of the Celtic Alliance to have a stable neighbour so they'd be open to it) inside the Windsors castle. Considering the MP (those that were made part of the coup, the others or those refusing the whole thing having been kicked out of their parliaments to avoid potential opposition with propaganda to cover the true reasons) have backed up Poll's plan and openly collaborated with him, I don't think they'd be forgotten or let go so easily. I see post-Poll Great Britain as being divided in the closest way to pre-DD England, with some being renamed or modified a bit in their borders to accomodate new realities like nuked cities and cultural changes/cities that grown in size and influence since 1983. Speaking of nuked cities, many in 2020 will finally be livable again! Those includes: York, Kingston upon Hull, Bristol, Leicester, Norwich, Coventry, Stoke on Trent, Wolverhamton, Reading, Dudley, Durham, Southend on Sea, Swindon, Huddersfield, Oxford, Cambridge, Stockport, Peterborough, Slough, Dover, Brighton, Gloucester, Rotherham and Newport. One of the first actions of the new Great Britain would undertake after the war would be a massive operation of rebuilding similar to the post-WW2 period to stimulate a boom in the economy. Not only would populated cities be rebuild across England and Southern Scotland, a massive never-seen before program of incentives would be made for ex-refugees of those no more radioactive cities and descendants/relatives of them to reinstall themselves into these cities to rebuild them faithfully with the help fo the United Communities, who saw this conflict as the best time to finally hold a foot in Europe, Prussia, some french countries and the rich Nordic Union. 

Also, for that corruption scandal following Ipswich, it should be added into the related articles if not already done. We're making you working some more Verence :). 

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:25, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

The corruption scandal that followed the Ipswich Incident is already in this part of the page about Woodbridge

Current Events

Verence71 (talk) 17:39, April 7, 2020 (UTC)]

Ok. New London it is. And yes many cities are habitable now, which was as I remember one of the reasons the Leicestershire independence movement happened recently at this time, and they even had a program to rebuild Leicester. Now the UK government can do it, and do it correctly along with many other newly habitable cities. By the way, could I build a character page for Edward Poll? As he is now most definitely relevant.

MrWoodward (talk) 20:33, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. Just remember to make sure it is realistic, follow the established canon (if it is realistic, else make objections to them first to hopefully get your point across) and make sure to explain what that dude was doing before Doomsday and before he became chief of OBN. Show a good progression of his life. And, just you know, you can disagree with the New London choice if that doesn't make any sense for you, I'd be pleased to know why (its not because I suggest it that it is authority).

SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:02, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Ok I've made the page! You can read about Edward Poll here. Could you help out with it a little bit please? Thank you guys!

MrWoodward (talk) 17:45, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

The map seriously needs updating

Zukushaman (talk) 13:33, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

What map are you talking about?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:55, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

The map of Great Britain and the successor states, shown on quite a few pages. Cleveland, the OBN... Most maps which show the current state of Britain and expansions of Newolland and Woodbridge for example.

Zukushaman (talk) 14:35, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

As far as a prison for Poll and his inner circle how about this place??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framlingham_Castle

Woodbridge used it as a prison for violent criminals when it was still under military control

Verence71 (talk) 17:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Here's a thought for the "Imperator". What if the position of Emperor is a meritocratic one, like the Roman Emperor? Poll could decide after his coronation or you know during the war that his successor would be one of his closest peers or generals, one loyal to the regime (this is because, having read the biography article, Poll has no children or spouse). He would have his successor prepared, but of course it would never work out because they'll end up losing the war and the regime collapsing.

FiteOwl (talk) 19:39, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

That's what I was intending. That's exactly why the Newolland monarchy supported fully his plan (in order to be eligible for such a crown as part of a new court and elite whose members of their family could for generations get favours out of the king). But even with that, like I said, I think it's a bit too early to decide the aftermath of the war: the war will surely only end in 2022-2024 and didn't even started yet! Also for the stadium, isn't there any surviving or build after DD stadium that is circular? Else a football stadium covered by bleachers all around it would still do the trick. But a "Football stadium coronation" wouldn't make sense inside a sports hall I think.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:04, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Okay the "stadium" can be outside. It's good to have an already planned aftermath though, so while this goes on as a live ongoing timeline, we can update the war's progress bit by bit with events likely to happen while still keeping in mind the solution it must come to.

I agree about the map thing. The map of GB needs on quite a few articles needs looking at.

MrWoodward (talk) 23:36, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Hello guys! I see the Edward Poll page hasn't been updated /is incomplete. Is it ok if I fill it in? Hope everyone is alright Nay Mate Woody (talk) 11:36, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

I'm alright. I'm okay with you continuing as long as you stay true to style, context and logic we all agreed (and I'm sure you will). I'm really proud of that coffee meeting of mine and thrilled to see it come to light.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:00, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

I want to add that none of this is done with the ownership of these states in hand, and even then some of these events are uncanonical or impossible. 

             Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  11:08, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hello, everyone. I realize this is from several months ago, but I'm hopeful that we can start to sort it all out. I've spent the last few days' worth of free time familiarizing myself with what we have on 1983dd-Britain, something that I had never paid much attention to before.

So first, regarding Adoption and adding to canonical articles: we have a process for that, and we have to follow it. It's something that I'm sure many of us will have to do several times in the coming months. See the Editorial Guidelines; but essentially we need to make an attempt to reach out to other people's creations before we add to them. In some cases, certain articles are group efforts, so adding to them just means we have to discuss them here; but still flag your changes as a proposal first.

Regarding the storyline discussed above: I think the title "Emperor" is going to ruin it for a lot of people. If the point is for a strongman-type leader to emerge in the established English states, and for there to be a struggle between those who want to unite under him, and those who don't: then that's a completely plausible story. It adds a nice dystopian element to the timeline, and it's interestingly ambiguous in that there's no clear hero and villain to the story. Poll and his supporters would have justifiable reasons for acting, and so would opponents. But: for him to call himself Emperor makes him sound like a crazy person, and it feels more like insane dystopian sci-fi rather than an actual attempt at an alternate timeline.

So I suggest that for the final version of the proposal, he call himself something else. My suggestion would be Lord Protector, something that is rather grandiose (and self-aggrandizing) without sounding totally delusional. I can even imagine him testing the title out in the manner suggested by SigmaHero: he's talking with a reporter and says something like, "I think that if the recent war has shown us one thing, it's that the OBN is more than just an organization: it's really England's future. And in the same way, I think of myself as more than just a chairman: I see my responsibility as the protection of the whole English nation. A Lord Protector, as it were."

I realize that Sigma's use of Latin is going for more of a Roman Republican sense of "Imperator" as "a successful military commander." I see this as unrealistic to the extreme. Most of us do not use the Roman Republic as our main cultural and political reference point, and that's going to be even more true in the world of Doomsday.

So my suggestion for moving forward with the Poll proposal: first, obviously, reach out to te relevant creators on their User Talk pages. Next, change his self-declared title from emperor to Lord Protector (or something else that’s suitable, ideally something that’s also relevant from English history and society). And adjust everything accordingly, so that the fight that ensues is less about which family is crowned, and more about whether the English states want a military strongman-type figure to be the one who finally unites them. Then, as we discuss the proposal, we’ll be less focused on the insanity of the title, more on the merits of the storyline.

Benkarnell (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Just a minute, let me put this straight: I'm not the one who came with this imperator title nor Edward Poll thirst for power. It was Nay Mate Woody's idea. And i didn't want to be too much severe with him, so I tried to find a sort of compromise where this idea he truly was passionate about could somehow work (with many changes). And the result was this civil war and the whole coffee meeting and such. But if you think about it, this is quite a perfect time for that : the first true test of the OBN under his leadership against the Sons of DeMontford in Leicestershire was a brilliant success. He got glory and popularity perfect for a cult of personality, the power in his hands starts to mess with his head. England never seemed so united since Doomsday. That idea of him putting a new royal family in place is not that farfetched, look at Newolland for instance. By riding on the anti-Windsor sentiment in the south-eastern part of England, he is sure to rally some allies on his side and popular support. By getting rid of any pre-DD aristocratic legitimacy to the throne, he is also making allies in the Newolland royal family since they can under that new order get high positions of power previously unobtainable. Just imagine the psychological side of all this (you know, the one thing almost all timelines neglect): a recomforting father figure bringing comfortable and reassuring stability and pre-DD prestige to a region that just witnessed two wars in less then a decade. Taking another aspect of this timeline (mirroriring real-life events), it mirrors the rise of authoritarianism in the 2010s and strongmen rules. Just imagine the anger and chauvinism in New Britain from someone taking the noble and sacred monarchy for his own non-aristocratic rule to a reunified England they fled when it was breaking apart. Don't you think someone living through three decades of unrest away from an utopianized pre-DD England (Edward Poll) and directly leading the front against rebels wouldn't have some psychological damage leading to desire for control (the "cockroach to squash" mentality)?

But for such a war to take place in the first place, it needs Leicester to be canon (like it actually was, fair and square) else there's no context that could lead to Poll rise in power in the first place. Else it is impossible to even happen in the first place. SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you - I just mixed up your developed scenario with Woody's original suggestion. I do think that such a conflict fits in well with the setting for the exact reasons you say. It's just the sort of growing pains we ought to expect at this point, a moment where concern is turning from mere to survival to the finally-real prospect of national restoration. But I'll say it again: simply using the title "Emperor", whether in English or Latin, instantly transforms that plausible scenario into one that's just silly. Even in a post-nuclear scenario, nobody is going to take someone seriously who starts telling people that he's the Emperor of England, no matter how many local battles he's won. A divisive strongman who doesn't invent weird titles for himself? That's believable and interesting, and the story you wrote around it makes sense if you remove the "imperial" aspect. Whether he comes out on top or not, it's just the sort of crisis that can provoke a decision on what England is finally going to be. Benkarnell (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

But for this to even happen, Leicester NEEDS to regain its canon status. TheWolvesDen still didn't reply to my point showing how we made it canon fair and square according to the editorial guidelines and how unfair it was for him to unilateraly make it a proposal again. Else why bother doing all the effort to ask permission from all english states for a war if the very catalyzer is not canon on its own?

But I agree, "Lord-Protector" sounds great (and more realistic). Could come with a whole historical revisionism that usually come with those sorts of things like "Oliver Cromwell did nothing wrong! He's an hero who I continue his legacy as lord-protector myself!". The same way Putin does with Ivan the Terrible and Stalin. SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen that, and I don't see it in the Former Proposals. But why not just re-list it together with the other British proposals. Honestly, if they all fit together so tightly, it's best if we consider them as a group anyway. Benkarnell (talk) 01:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi guys, just wanted to say two things regarding the British Civil War storyline:

1. I haven't been involved in this story, but I've been watching it from a distance (really enjoying reading about it!), and wanted to add my two cents about the title for Edward Poll: I personally think "Lord Protector" is the better choice than "Imperator Anglorum," as others have suggested. "Lord Protector" has precedence in British history. "Imperator Anglorum" sounds a bit too out-of-the-blue IMHO. Plus "Lord Protector" conjures up images of the Cromwell era, where Britain was ruled by a military strongman who was opposed to the Royals, which is essentially similar to the showdown that's about to happen to 1983DD Britain with the Pollist vs. Windsors conflict. So I think "Lord Protector" would be a fitting self-proclaimed title for Edward Poll.

2. I just want to say you guys are doing a great job crafting an exciting storyline!

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Alright. I agree with you on the change of Poll's title, I thought it would be original but it does sound insane, Lord Protector sounds good. And yes, the Republic of Leicester is canon. We all agreed upon it here in a fair way as SigmaHero045 said. I ask for the group's permission to restore it by removing the Proposal tag. MrWoodward (talk) 09:42, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

No problem! To be fair, MrWoodward, maybe there's a way to still incorporate your original idea at the same time: maybe Poll could publicly declare himself the "Lord Protector" of Britain, but boastfully refers to himself unofficially as the "Imperator Anglorum" behind closed doors with his inner circle. Eventually, enough domestic staff/guards/etc. overhear him repeatedly calling himself this, and the word leaks out to the English public that the self-proclaimed "Lord Protector" secretly fancies himself an emperor. Maybe this could contribute to the backlash against Poll? What do you think? This way both ideas could still be used! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I actually disagree with that, the imperator title is madness in any context, and honestly from what I've seen of Poll I don't know that he'd be the sort of person to dredge up ancient Roman titles for himself. ... So what's the status of this? Are some other changes going to happen? How many articles does this storyline actually affect? Benkarnell (talk) 23:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Anyone that tries to use that title outside of Rome itself is likely going to be viewed as nuts. There just isn't the historical basis for it it would get viewed far more negatively than anything, as far as "meaning" goes.

Considering background, any type of "royal" title is likely going to end up going down that same path.

"Lord Protector" would have to be the choice. Heck, the area your guy is from is even from the general region where Cromwell came form. Anything else would run into the same problems as Cromwell, with regards to connotations and legitimacy. Power and control wise, no real difference, maybe. But image does matter, you know?

Beyond that....

Where is the support for this?

He may be from Newholland, but I can't really see them doing it - not overall, anyway. Their monarchy may have been named and chosen by the government and people, but, as noted with other things by others above, that's it. There is no claim otherwise, or even some sort of line of lineage like in Northumbria or Lancaster. Now, I'm not saying he won't get a lot of support here. He will. Could even have support of most of the government - he's got the same amount of claim as the queen, barring having been named such by the government. And that is something that having been named could easily be revoked. Truthfully, with "Lord Protector" as a title, it'd probably go over better overall for him.

Now, some kind of coup there would work. As noted, you'd find the backing. Historically, for elected monarchs this isn't unusual. Poland, for example, and the Norse countries before they decided to ignore their crowns being technically elected too. Have this take place, and a poorly planned/rushed OBN vote, with the queen fleeing elsewhere for aid? That would work as a trigger, and start. She'd be able to get help in such a context, though probably have to make some sort of concessions to get it.

Woodbridge? Considering the makeup and founding of the state, you're going to run into problems here. Poll's personal popularity is going to get him some measure of support, and provided he use the Protector title, he's not going to offend the sensibilities ingrained by things here after DD. Remember, though, that Woodbridge has always purposely avoided clarifying its stance on crown/republic issues. That needs to be dealt with. Now, you're going to have majority support here, I think, but this does need to be taken into account. There's also going to have to be some sort of concession to those more independent minded, here. Probably some sort of republican aspects, too, given the number of (former) Americans here.

Essex... you've got a conglomerate government here between the "councils" and a pretty socialist one too. Can easily see a majority support here, but probably not all of the council areas going along with it. I would expect government official support, but little beyond that.

Southern England is another problem. The exodus of the Ships has left a pretty bad taste in the mouths of many for crowns here - though, as noted, this has gotten better in recent years - so Poll would be a tough sell. I could see them going along with a vote, but.... support beyond that is going to be troublesome. You're also going to see, by this point, the largest concentration of "windsor" supporters here. This spot also runs into by FAR the most problems with the CA and LoN. Could even drive them into the net hands of the CA. Expect grudging support, but unable to do much politically, in an effort by the locals to avoid internal trouble.

Elsewhere in the OBN, support would likely be minimal for this. Probably an increase in fascist/socialist/republican agitation, but not much beyond that.

Expect the TBN remnants, and similar groups, to take advantage of the events/chaos, and attack anywhere they can. Wouldn't shock me if Matlock became somewhat of a base.

Internationally, the LoN will condemn this. As will the ADC.

More interesting, though, would be the CA reaction. Government won't support it, but I would not be surprised if various other elements do. The amount of radicals in Ireland has dropped at lot here, but there would still be some.

One thing I can say, I doubt you'd get the rest of the states fighting to support reestablishing the throne like that. NB has little interest in the matter, and while you do have another candidate inside the UK itself, you likely wouldn't get the other states behind that movement. Too much has changed.

As for peace talks, anywhere inside the UK is probably a no-go. Most sites are out for obvious reasons, and the CA is just too involved. A nearby state friendly to all would be a better idea, probably. Friesland would probably be the best bet.

Overall, you're going to have to somehow get a few different groups behind Poll for this to work outside of Newholland. How, is the question.

Calling it a civil war, imo, is probably a bit much. More like "2020 English Coup" or some such thing.

Funny enough, this does more or less divide things into one of the proposed "futures" for the UK we had on here at some point. A monarchy under the North-Cleveish dyanasty in the NW with the Lancaster rulers dukes under them (along with others), the CA in more or less current areas, and the others in the SE under some sort of English republic. Southern England being the question, as to which (CA or Republic) it falls into, with a spilt likely. Historically, wouldn't be the first time the UK was effectively spilt this way, either, such as (roughly) in the Norse era.

Lordganon (talk) 13:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

CSTO flag

The CSTO flag has a different problem: it uses the flag from the real-life organization established in 1992. That fact alone is disqualifying in my opinion - things from after the point of divergence are a grey area in timelines generally, but an absolute no in this one. Doomsday changed absolutely everything - whoever designed that flag in real life was surely not around to do it in TTL. But even beyond that, the CSTO of this world, unlike ours, is explicitly ideological. Its flag should look explicitly socialist. At the very least it should be red, and it might include other well-known communist symbols. I'm not actually suggesting the flag at the right, it's just the old Comintern logo on red, but maybe it's a starting point. Benkarnell (talk) 03:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Here's a my proposal for the new flag of CSTO, i used as a model the COMECON flag, and here as well the circles rapresent the links that the Socialist countries trough the world have, more even then before since Doomsday. And the center is composed by three leaves on each side of the Red Star, inside the red flag there are two hand shaking in a gold color. Mal3ssio97 22:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I like it a lot. Benkarnell (talk) 16:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I preffer the second one, it matches better with the general aesthetic of 70s graphic design in the soviet world while the third one seems more like a 2010s of our timeline flag in its design choices. I get that the third one might be the best flag overall but it's not necessarily the flag that would match better how the people in those times and world would visualize this. Remember that the whole graphic design evolution process has pretty much been stopped since Doomsday, so it stick to what it was before it. Also, there's the recognition pattern since it is an already used symbol and flag with a message behind it that is fitting for the goal of the organization. SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It's based on the Comecon flag, which is from 1949! Benkarnell (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

The more reason to adopt this one! It has familiar imagery. SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

No, I mean the flag with 5 rings is from 1949. With just some changes to the symbols inside the pentagon. Benkarnell (talk) 15:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh okay, but why not use the original then? I think the leaves on the sides look...off. SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

New logo of 1983 Doomsday

Ciao to everyone, I, Ale for short, have created a new logo for the timeline and project, under the suggestion of Benkarnell on Discord, since 1983: Doomsday occured in the 80s i took inspiration from that period, using elements of that time like the retrosun, i then put a nuclar logo on it and around the sun i write "1983 Doomsday" in Lazer 84. I hope that this new logo will not only look nice and feel 80s but also that it can give new hope to the project and that can see a resurgence, as this timeline was indeed famous but fogotten by anyone. Ale Mal3ssio97 21:55, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1 • Page 2 • Page 3

Comics

I have no objections to graductioning Marvelo Comics. Speaking of Comics does body like the idea of a comic company based in Nigeria, The Alpine Confedertion, Tiawan, India, New Britian Texas or Canada.Goldwind1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC) (Copied from another section by Benkarnell (talk) 18:08, 26 January 2021 (UTC))

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Italian Confederation

I dicuased the of the naitons of ittalian pensual allince minus san mariono federlasing with Mal3ssio97. I talked with him because he own the nations in question. He said he was open to the idea. I gave him a chance to start the articel but he didn'tdo and i got taired of waiting and start my sel. Mal3ssio97 if you have changed your mind i will dealte this arcitle

Dreamworld

I decided to make page for austirlia's largest themepark. It probbly would have shutdown shortly after doomsday but I think would reopen in the early 2000'sGoldwind1 (talk) 23:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I am looking foward to feed back on my dream word puropseal. I hope it is not too ambitous

Natalie Hershlag

I have already written up an article about Natalie Hershlag, the 1983: Doomsday version of OTL's Israeli-American Jewish actress. Since her parents, Avner and Shelley, were living in Jerusalem in 1983 just one year before moving to the States this mean that they alongside their daughter survived the nuclear catastrophe that shook the world since the city was spared from bombardment thanks to the IDF shooting down missiles intended to blow up the place. Since her Hollywood stardom path is obviously butterflied, she would likely become politician and leader of Da'am (a joint Jewish-Arab party) since national unity would be very prevalent amongst most Israeli ethnic groups after Doomsday aside from some exceptions such as terrorist organizations like the Hamas Caliphate or ultranationalists like Likud (which I hope to outline much later).

Right now, I'm trying to place a photo of her at Columbia University on the article as if she were speaking at a political meeting but I can't properly make it upload. Ficboy

Governor-Generalship of the Steppes

Article by AnomalousDucky.

This is a new proposal for a Kazakhstani survivor state led by Russian nationalist Vladimir Zhrinovsky of the LDPK. He was born in the Kazakh SSR, hence his role as leader of this nation.

There's a discussion already going on at Talk:Governor-Generalship of the Steppes (1983: Doomsday); but the short version is that I don't think Zhirinovsky is likely to have survived in 1983. There may be other prominent Russian nationalists who we could find, however. Benkarnell (talk) 00:13, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhrinovsky was a low level member of the Soviet government at Doomsday. No clue as to where. He may have born in this general region, but certainly was not here at DD. The other proposed leaders on the talk page have similar problems.

Besides that, the feasibility of this state, given things.... not so much. The list of cities reads like a target list, it borders too many opposing forces, internally contradicts itself, and is not in a area that would be very likely to organize.

Lordganon (talk) 02:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

War of the Alboran Sea

Article by Gatemonger. Feg 17:09, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

This seems to accurately gather together information from different sources - Sicily, Spanish Regency, Sardinia, Sicily, the Spanish National Republic, and the Atlantic Defense Community. It needs copyediting, wikilinks, and an infobox, but I don't see why it can't be made a canonical article quickly. Benkarnell (talk) 03:00, October 8, 2020 (UTC)

Since Sicily and other Italy-related content is up for Review, I'm leaving this as a proposal for now. Benkarnell (talk) 15:58, October 12, 2020 (UTC)

Guymon

Survivor state located in the Oklahoma Panhandle. CheesyCheese (talk) 02:38, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I'm of the mind that stub-length descriptions of tiny American city-states should be removed as a general rule. What this one has going for it is that (1) it's an interesting area generally, given the Panhandle's history as a juristictional no-man's-land and its location on the edge of the Restored United States; and (2) it was written by a user who's very much still active. But to be viable, this article would have to coordinate with the much more developed info on Northern Texas and the USA, in particular Kansas, whose territory it borders. I've reached out to Cheese and asked if he's still interested in this proposal. Benkarnell (talk) 04:27, October 5, 2020 (UTC)

I never heard anything from CheesyCheese. I waited 2 weeks and posted my modified proposal. Summary of my changes:

• • I moved the page from Guymon to Cimarron, but this reflects an in-universe change c. 2014.
  • I presented the place as a half-lawless frontier town for the entirety of the 90s and 00s. I tried to imagine what would happen in a typical rural prairie town, far from any attacks. It's not total collapse, and it's not an island of civilization. It's more a slow, steady dissipation.
  • I've made the American Spring events of 2011 key to its transformation and the rebuilding of civil society.
  • The community began making overtures to the USA in the mid-2010s, and was admitted as a state in 2020. If we assume that the Virgin Islands were admitted sometime in the middle of the decade and no other new states since then, that would make Cimarron #13, which is a nice coincidence.

If the proposal is accepted, then the USA map and flag would need updates. I'm happy to do the map, which anyway needs an update to show the Virgin Islands. For a flag, I would suggest this version by Hellerick. As the US expands, we may as well use the many versions that he was kind enough to upload to Flags of the United States. If other new states are later discovered to have been admitted during the period 2012-2020, then it will be easy enough to retcon the parts of this proposal that refer to Cimarron as the 13th state.

Benkarnell (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, Virgin Islands is highly unlikely to be a state, and anyway has a committed caretaker now. For now Cimarron is probably the 12th state, unless it can be shown that something else (Cascadia maybe? Or even the San Juan Islands?) became a state after 2012 but before 2020. Benkarnell (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Tuscan Armed Forces. 

I have make a page about the Tuscan Armed Forces, is finish. Military of Tuscany Col. James Hsu (talk), 14:23, 05/03/2016 (UTC) 

Seborga 

I have made Seborga as a nation of 1983: Doomsday. User:Col. James Hsu, 22:20, 29/03/2016 (UTC) 

Not plausible due to other states. Objections to obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 01:58, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

Monaco itself is "at best a loose confederation of city-states," so this actually could exist with changes indicating that it's a subnational unit. Benkarnell (talk) 14:48, September 28, 2020 (UTC)

Update: I've substantially re-written the proposal so that now it's clearly a dependent state of Monaco. I also reduced some things to make it clear that it is not a fully modern first-world society at this time. The military information needs to be similarly reduced. Once that is completed, I think it should be able to graduate without much of a problem. Benkarnell (talk) 20:57, October 5, 2020 (UTC)

I just looked this over again and found some further issues with plausibility and language. I tried to fix them but maybe graduation will need to wait until some of the other Italy-related proposals and reviews are finished. Benkarnell (talk) 03:53, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Just can't see it as a "state" of any kind. Maybe one of the regions the outer territories are organized into, but not a state like that. Lordganon (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Society for the Italian Reunification

I have created a page about the committe for established a democratic state in southern Italy 

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 16:54. 

For one thing, the proposed name for the article seems far too long. I am not sure, but perhaps the "CEMDPA" sited in the final paragraph might be appropriate. But then again, typing "Committee" in the search box is all that is needed to fine it.  Check with the naming conventions. SouthWriter (talk) 16:54, June 11, 2016 (UTC)

Ah ok, i have use that name why there is that in the Non-governmental organizations, i think we can delete from Modern to Democratic, why is understable what kind of state the Italian want, is not need of specificated there. If you wanna you can modificated the article.

Col. James Hsu (talk) 11 June 2016, 21:16. 

As noted elsewhere, change the name and fix the destinations/headquarters. Lordganon (talk) 03:08, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

This has been discussed quite a bit on Discord, and changes have happened in response to it. I think it's natural that such an organization would exist; that it would oppose the ongoing Alpine hegemony in Italy; and that it would look to Italian communities abroad for sympathy and support. However I also agree with TheWolvesDen that the list of chapters is more ambitious than realistic. I also agree that the goal of this society is unlikely to be achieved in the short term, since The World, as a whole, supports what the A.C. is doing in Italy. Benkarnell (talk) 18:45, October 6, 2020 (UTC)

Subalpine Federation 

I have revived the page about the Subalpine Republic, it has been agreed also by Thewolvesden and by Benkarnell that this page does fit into the lore of 1983: Doomsday and so it can be added again as a proposal Col. James Hsu 23:01, 28th September 2020. 

I'm moving this to the Proposals section, since that's what it is. And I. must point out that the conversation on Discord was between James Hsu and Thewolvesden - I wasn't actually involved and haven't had time to read this yet. Benkarnell (talk) 20:55, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

How can it even coexist with the Alpine Federation? And do you imagine all the wars and geopolitic that would have to be rewritten to make it work?

17:55, October 3, 2020 (UTC)SigmaHero045 (talk)

What do you mean by that ? And the Alpine Confederation is one of the most important allied of the federation, also not that much articles need to be rewritten in order to be fit into the lore. Only a couple since it change only Italy Mal3ssio97 03/10/2020 

I think this could work, but it needs some significant changes. In general, it's too big, too prosperous, and emerges too early. This does create conflicts with canonical information about the region.

The central change that needs to happen is the description of how the federation came to be in 1991. A peaceful referendum of all the communities of the area. If this became canon, the whole history of the region would not make sense. If this alliance were capable of good civil administration over such a big area at this time, why wouldn't they simply unite with Genoa and Tuscany too? A state like that, with its affairs clearly in order, would have become the driver of Italian reunification. But we know that Italy is not united. That means that the pockets of control in the 80s and 90s were small, struggling, and most of all non-contiguous. So 1991 could be when some surviving villages and refugee camps in the area entered into some kind of alliance. Later they could establish a more regular government, using the 1848 republic as a model. But even then, I don't think it would be the sedate referendum portrayed here.

In terms of geopolitics, what has been known about this area until now was that it's part of the Alpine Confederation's sphere of influence. That should not change with this new discovery. All existing maps show that Alpine troops have a presence here; that means at least a base and a guarantee of free passage through the territory.

A few other issues that need to be addressed:

• The population: I doubt there is a single spot in Europe that has a higher population now than in 1983. It was not just the deaths from war. It was also the subsequent decades of worse diet, worse health care, and low birth rates. If you adjust the chronology and the size of the communities, you should get to a more realistic number.
• The economy: At some points it makes sense, for example noting that the economy relies on agriculture and receives significant foreign aid, and some recent foreign investment. But this picture is contradicted by the rest of the proposal. It presents a nation with an industrialized economy and a modern, first-world standard of living. Again, if a small federation in Italy were able to achieve this, the rest of Italy would make no sense. Industry can be going through some revival. Nutella can be happening. But not at the scale now implied. The modern capitalist economy has not reappeared in places that were heavily attacked like Europe - simply because there is not much capital anymore.
• Globalization: Many parts of the world are less isolated now than they were in 2010, but this is still not a world where companies in northern Italy are going to be opening up offices around the world. And I have not seen any suggestion at all that international commercial air traffic has come back. I would expect goods, recorded media, and possibly some investment from South America to have reached the Subalpine region by now; but the robust global economy implied here does not exist. And certainly there are no European companies with enough capital to start investing overseas. This also applies to the media companies.
• Energy: I'm uncertain on the possibility of a pre-war nuclear power plant surviving and functioning all the way down through the years. The best possible scenario, I think, would be that a competent crew working within a stable town could shut the plant down safely, avoid meltdown, and contain the radioactive materials. And I do not think that anyone in Italy would want to consider bringing it back online in later years. Most people would be understandably terrified of nuclear power.
• Foreign relations: I'm not sure that it has the resources to operate embassies in so many countries. A few overseas, sure, but not so many. And the Alpine Confederation no doubt is empowered to represent its interests in some other countries.

On the other hand, I really like the vision of the French newcomers changing the culture of the region. Most 1983dd pages portray refugees solely as a threat, and don't think about their influence on the host country in the long term. This actually inspires me to write about similar changes in some of my countries for this timeline.

I also think that the form of government is reasonable. Except that, again, it should be presented as emerging later. Maybe even post-2010. Most of the written history of Italy stops around 2010, so if we say that this Federation reached its complete form after that, it would avoid interfering with canon.

I also really like the flag, arms, map, photos, and political graphics. Visually it's a good addition to the timeline.

I'm willing to help proofread the English, but I'll wait until the content is revised.

- Benkarnell (talk) 16:00, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Basic idea good, but the region is part of the territories controlled by the Alpines. Lordganon (talk) 02:54, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice

This section is copied from the archived discussion at "Some Proposals I've been working on". - Benkarnell (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice - Was at Stanford on Doomsday in OTL. I've traced a potential post-Doomsday bio for her, in which she serves in various teaching and diplomatic roles in California. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Your article you should add more details and be more clear so someone who doesn't know who she is (like me) know how she went from Alabama to a Carter administration job to Denver to California. How did she gain her reputation as a Soviet specialist? Did the fallout affected her area (be careful to not have a version different from canon here)? Warning: Remember that the Municipal Pacific States only came to be in the second half of the 2000s so you're making a lot of big contradictions here. Even more in contradiction: look at how far the MSP region is from Santa Cruz, not to forget all the nuked areas in the way just to arrive at an unstable warlords-driven living hell lacking in everything whom the terryfying word of mouth about the crual Boss Jones come out spreading throughout the west coast. Unless her colleagues were suicidal or just stupid, I don't think they would want to go there. The California republic is not better by much: the government in the second half of the 90s collapsed and they are victims of foreign attacks, they'll only reform in 2006, de facto 2003. It was pretty much anarchy until then. With what path will they go to anywhere? Chumash? On civil war. Sierra Nevada? In a Spokane war of some sort (not much details). The only somewhat safe place to go would be Visalia and be accepted residing there by the authorites by doing manual labour there until a better option could be found. Then when the California republic would reform and actually be stable, her whole gang of intellectuals could go take refuge there realistically around 2006-7 and start working at that college before she go do her diplomatic thing. I wonder under such a story if Visalia would accept her (or if she would feel comfortable enough to do it given her record up there of fleeing the place) as a representative of the new California republic. Big big changes needed. SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:42, June 24, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I admittedly wrote that proposal in a bit of a rush. I will take a look at how to make some changes for how she ends up in the California Republic. 

For her background, she worked for President Carter at the State Department starting in 1977. Previously, she'd been mentored at college by professor and anti-communist former diplomat Josef Korbel. She also served at Stanford University's program on arms control and served a Ford Foundation Fellowship on Soviet studies and international security. You're right, I will take your advice and expand on how her background would affect her reaction. 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yeah, doesn't make much sense for her to go to anarchist California republic. I sincerely thinks she won't make it alive unless it goes the only sort of way I could imagine: to Visalia and even with that I'm still not 100% convinced the king in place wouldn't do bad things to her as an intellectual.Good that you go expend her background. SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

In general this vastly underestimates the level of social breakdown in the Bay Area during the 1980s. The picture we've had so far has been one of total collapse. Even if Stanford was not attacked, there's no way that institutions like the town government would survive after the first year or so. And the university itself might persist as an organization so that it could rescue books and such, as you say, but it certainly is not going to carry on with classes and routine work, which is currently implied.

I think that Condi could stay and be part of the salvage, but head east fairly early on, together with many other Bay Area refugees. But then here's another big discrepancy. The northern part of the Central Valley, which we know would eventually become the California Republic, was not anything like a modern functioning state. Look over the page a little more. In 1989 it devolved most governing power to the counties (and many of the counties were barely getting by). In 1999 it dissolved completely, only to be re-established in 2006.

Maybe those could be the years that Condi was working as a teacher, maybe Stanford was able to find a spot in the Central Valley where it could stash books and other valuable items, and begin to operate a school of some kind. (To respond to points by Sigma earlier, just because the central government wasn't functioning, doesn't mean it was a total hellhole. It would be a lot of refugees in camps and settlements. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant... but certainly better than the Bay Area itself.) And then, I could see her as one of the leaders behind the movement to re-establish the Republic. I could imagine her holding the office of Chief Diplomat from the Republic's founding until now - probably the politics of the Republic are unstable and uncertain, but she could be a steadying force.

Benkarnell (talk) 17:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

New Jersey Skylands

This section is copied from the archived discussion at "Some Proposals I've been working on". - Benkarnell (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

New Jersey Skylands - the leafy northwestern region of New Jersey, which according to canon wasn't bombed, but otherwise is not mentioned. I've envisioned a modest survivor state based mostly around agriculture and trading hand-crafted items. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Your map seems correct according to official weather data and references used for this timeline. I'd however say that there would be a bigger refugee crisis considering the alarm that went on some time before the strikes, giving the chance for some to exit the cities of Philadelphia and Delwark. It's a bit too optimistic in that regard concerning the low level of refugees. It would be more chaotic in the beginning. Also explaining how they manage their currency and how they came to be in contact with other states in the region(according to ways that don't clash or contrast in tone with the canon). Also, how did they got zeppelins? How in the world did the east coast, with all the difficulties concerning any form of global intercontinental trade, would have in its possession zeppelins from the other side of the atlantic? I don't buy it. They are just starting to fabricate them for essex and southern england. Sorry. Also, could you explain the sociocultural factors that led to it being a "hotbed of american nolstalgia"? What led to it realistically being this way? You should also add "region" after talking about Pennsylvania because there's no pennsylvanian state as of right now and would reflect better the situation you seems to talk about in your article, encompassing the various survivor states. It might surely be just me, but I think naming a history chapter after a bon jovi song is a bit out of touch and contrasting the general style of the timeline, not looking really "encyclopedia-style". Almost last point, how is their political system? How it is structered and what posts and roles that goes with them are? For instance, what is the power and role of this "governor lieutenant governor"? Is it like a parliamentary system with an elected head of state and a prime minister? It must look like it came right of the local people discussions and minds given the historical context. Last point, is it part of the United Communities? If canonize its role and history must be present in its neighbours pages and the UC page or any other article where it could have contributed (while respecting the editorial guidelines of asking proper permission or adopt them).  SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:55, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

I've added a crisis early on in the post-Doomsday history that shows the tensions from what you described and ultimately serves as the impetus for the region's consolidation into a unified survivor state. The American nostalgia part I ascribe due to a combination of the region's OTL political conservatism as well as residents feeling isolated from the rest of the continent and longing for the good old days when they were part of a continent-spanning nation with mass media and transportation.

I've added a section fleshing out the details of the state government. Also, I think you misread the infobox: Governor and Lieutenant Governor are two separate positions. The infobox just places them one above the other. I left them blank for now because I haven't yet figured out who to put in those positions as of 2020 just yet. 

For the part about the zeppelins, I seem to have made an error. I read about the zeppelins in some of the other articles and erroneously made the assumption that they were in operation in North America as well. Is it possible that they could have been created by Delmarva or another large survivor state in the region by 2020? If not, I can just remove that part. 

I agree that the New Jersey Skylands could join the United Communities. After looking at your suggestion on this and reading the UC's page, I came up with an idea: I noticed that the UC has apparently been engaged in various fallout cleanup projects; perhaps instead of zeppelins being a means of trade between the New Jersey Skylands and South Jersey, the Skylands could instead partner with the UC to organize a cleanup operation to clear fallout at some of the thinnest parts of the fallout line separating North and South Jersey. They could perhaps target the thinnest points in this line of fallout to open up some corridors for trade between Skylands-controlled North Jersey and Delmarva-controlled South Jersey by 2020. I think this could be a good and much more sensible and canon-based alternative to my original zeppelin idea. 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Love how you added a justification for the term "skylands" and the geography of this place. Makes sense now and help give the imagination a better picture of the land. I'd squish down a little the regiment picture as it is a bit too wide (use px to help). This is definitely my favourite of your articles, not only is it well written, it is coherent, well showed and makes total sense (levels of "why has no one thought about this before"). 92% great. Only thing is to add the current lieutenant-governor and, unless you plan an article to list them all, remove the url in the infobox. Beside that, 100% ready to be a canon article. I still think naming a section after a Bon Jovi or a Bruce Springsteen song is a bit out of style concerning the usual style of DD.

Zeppelins: No, just no. There's just no way it would work with the public mind. It would be seen as farfetched. Small STOL/seaplanes only could make air travel possible depending on the locations, all the oil needed raises some doubts however. Sorry.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

I have a few concerns:

• Bethlehem was destroyed, presumably by a R-36 warhead (750 kiloton). This would have raked the area with fallout.
• It is canon that northern New Jersey is essentially uninhabitable from fallout due to strikes on Philadelphia and New York
• The state seems far too developed, given its isolated location, and the fact that the survivor population would likely be in the thousands or tens of thousands
• The nation I have completed, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna (1983: Doomsday) only joined the UC in 2018 due to its isolation. New Jersey would likely be worse off. It was heavily debated between myself and several moderators over the timeline, but it was agreed that after 2015 would be realistic.
• Due to fallout patterns, refugees from Scranton and Wilkes Barre would be forced west and south, in Susquehanna it is stated that refugees end up in Berwick and Hazleton
• Given the location of the country, it is unlikely for there to be significant amounts of tourism. Radiation from the New York metro and southern NJ would be a significant issue, it is an isolated nation, and the economy would be focused around people surviving. They don't have the resources to rebuild major cities.
• Minor nitpick: Phillipsburg, PA is in Centre County

Daeseunglim (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello! So for the NJ Skylands, it's canon that northEASTERN NJ was irradiated. The existing fallout map from the canon article on New Jersey as a whole shows the northwest as not hit. The wind patterns in the region typically go from west to east, so the fallout from Hudson and Essex Counties and the rest of northeastern NJ would be blowing towards the ruins of NYC, Connecticut, the Long Island Sound, and the Atlantic Ocean, and the closest civilization in its path would probably be the Outer Lands to the east.

I do mention difficulties in survival and a significant drop in population in the 1980's, which I have now clarified as being as a result of fallout from Bethlehem, though I hadn't put an exact number on the long-term survivors.

I don't think of this place as overly "developed." It's mostly wilderness and farm towns that already existed pre-Doomsday. The society there would indeed be very agrarian. The travelers I envisioned starting to slowly arrive by 2020 would be a small trickle of people, not a massive horde. I'm picturing that at this point, recreational travel is only just barely starting to re-emerge, and is not yet a major industry.

For the UC part, I can change the date of joining to closer to present day.

Also, the Phillipsburg I'm talking about in the article is Phillipsburg, New Jersey in Warren County.

Best regards,

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Have I adequately addressed the concerns expressed above? I'll wait on that article for a bit longer, but I think I can now canonize the rest.

Sincere thanks everyone! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

2015 is still too soon for joining the UC. It would join after Susquehanna and Reading did, both were in contact with UC members for almost a decade before joining. Susquehanna only joined in 2015 and was an observer since 2013. I would say observer status in 2015 and membership in 2018 or 2019 is more realistic.

Before you canonize, please define the population, flesh out the government and military more, and update the history and international relations to take into account Reading, Pennsylvania (1983: Doomsday), Lehigh (1983: Doomsday), and Commonwealth of Susquehanna (1983: Doomsday); as their information will definitely impact your country.

It is canon that both Susquehanna and Reading are still dealing with raiders to the east, so communication between NJHL and these nations would be difficult. I do believe it would join, but it will take time due to distance and raiders causing problems. Reading and Susquehanna are working to clear the gangs out of the area, but they are still problematic.

I think you need to address the population, also, just to note, Susquehanna and Reading claim the entire eastern half of Pennsylvania to the Delaware River. They do not control the whole area, however if NJ claims territory in what these countries considers to be part of their integral territory it may cause conflict.

Your state, given the location, economy, and demographic of the area, would likely be weaker than Susquehanna. Additionally, Reading, Lehigh, and Susquehanna are in a military and political alliance. However, provided relations are cordial, I think it is likely that it would be integrated into the organization and probably be a trade partner with the organization. (Confederation of Pennsylvanian States (1983: Doomsday)) I could also see these countries (along with possibly the NY Republic and State College) working together to clean up the coast of NJ and build a port city if they can find an area with low or no radiation.

Overall, I would say it is 75% of the way there, and I do like the idea of a Northern NJ survivor state.

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with earlier comments that it's too developed. I think that in the fun of creating new localized "countries," a lot of us forget to ask just what it would be like to live through a total social collapse. In the years following a nuclear attack, most communities would not be meeting in summits or setting up 3-branched governments. They would be struggling to just live through the next few days, and they would be waiting for some kind of word from the national and state authorities. They would continue to think of themselves as American for a very long time afterward, and would not just dive into creating a nation-state probably until a new generation was running things, and in the meantime society will have totally transformed. American survivor states need to be simple, focused on the basic necessities. Not very concerned with reduplicating American civic institutions until long after other basic needs are met.

Benkarnell (talk) 17:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Plus, we have small strikes in the eastern areas of a few of those counties. Easternmost Huntington County, roughly Morristown and Somerville in Morris and Somerset counties, and somewhere around Vernon in easternmost Sussex county.

I would say that southern Warren and western Hunterdon counties are too close to "bad" areas as well.

Northern Warren and Western Sussex counties, maybe some north/west bits work. Beyond that, too much.

As the others have noted, scale down beyond that.

Lordganon (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Birdman Films

Another older proposal that was never posted. Post-DD Tommy Wiseau? It turns out that he did live in Louisiana during the early 80s. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he lived in Chalmette, too close to a target in New Orleans to be a likely survivor. But the page is delightful enough that I think it deserves a discussion - it's exactly what Wiseau would be doing in this world if he did live. Maybe there's a way. Benkarnell (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Has anyone had a chance to look into this? Is there any realistic way to save Tommy? Benkarnell (talk) 15:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Commune of Monza

The history of an Italian commmune that was annexed to the Alpine Confederation . It needs proofreading, but I think it's a good addition. There's surprisingly little detail about the Italian regions that were annexed by the Alpines. Benkarnell (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Judging by the map monza is not the only part to part of the alpine confedration. I assume that those part of italy were intial directly anenexed by switterland or were by of protocate kinda of like the spornon and Znojmo Frontier Territories. I feel that it plauble that the alpine confederation may eventualy combine monza and other former itlain terroities to make a new alpine condfeation meamber state called Padania. I feel that a strong natiolist movement in the alpine confderations former italian terroties to break off of austira and switerland and thier one state with in the alpine confederation (posted by Goldwind1)

I like that idea. It's something that I would expect in the last few years, whether it was successful or not. Benkarnell (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I am gald you like the idea. I got serveral ideas for the alpine confedeation. Do it it posisble that do a comdaiton of the alpine confedation admiitng the kingdom of litisitne as a meamber and discover that the house of Hohenzollern has retaken the throne of prurssia could lead to the austiran people deciding to put the hapsburgs back on some time in the mid to late 2010's. Karl von haspburg the heir to the haspaburg dynsty lied in slaburg so he should have surrived doomsdya

I got some idea involving Italy and the Alpine Confederation. I like the idea of the alpine confederation sending Itlaian speaking colonialists into the part of the Italy that police but have annexed. this includes part of the vento region. Venice didn't like this because they fill a historic claim to the regions. This leds to some suggesting that Venice join the alpine confederation. The is decent support of Venice but they some people demanding so level of attomonay. This lead the idea of having Venice tusancy Genoa, and the alpine confederation itlain terottiy forming an itlaian confederation and having the alipe confederation and the itlain confederation and the alpine confederation forming a new nation called the European federation or eurpean union. Besides the itlain and alpien condferiton the european union/ federation would also include bavaira and the sprona and zhomor frontier terrotities. I like the idea of the more part of former gemrany evently joing the european federaiton/union as part of a geman confedtion with bavaira

So for the first part, the policed area of northern Italy, there is a currently active proposal, the Subalpine Federation - which clearly would be a state that's dependent on the AC. But that proposal in my opinion still needs significant work before it's ready. Benkarnell (talk) 17:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I think I may try to convince the Subalpine federation author to drop his idea of a independent Subalpine and make it part of the alpine confederation. Also do like my idea of Venice Tuscany Genoa, and the Alpine Confederation's Italian Territory forming an Italian Confederation which will join the alpine confederation as member of an new multinational stated called the Euopenan Alliance , European Federation or European union.Goldwind1 (talk) 13:44, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Beyond this wider conversation about the rest of northern Italy... this proposal per se seems pretty uncontroversial, correct? Would anybody mind if I graduate it, now that it's been here for a month? Benkarnell (talk) 21:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, i may agree to the formation of an Italian Federation that will comprend all northern Italy, included most of Lombardy, Piedmont, all Emilia-Romagna and the sovereign states of Subalpine, Genoa and Venice, this will not only be beneficial to the Confederation, because it will give to the Italians territory important to them and will alleviate a big burden on the Alpine budget, but will also show that the Alpines are friends of the Italians, and not conquerers or settlers that want to exploit foreign lands. If you help for the IF i am willing to give you assistance. Mal3ssio97 00:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Like this for example, map of the Italian Federation

I think you have misunderstood my proposal. I was proposing the Alpine, the states of north Italy as well parts of southern Germany unite to form a four tier federal state. The Italian federation or as perter to call it The Italian Confederation would be a second tier state along with the alpine confederation and a German Confederation. If you don't like my 4 four tier multinational European Federation idea I will be willing to support your idea of the independent nations of the northern Italy minus San Marino decide to federate and the alpine consideration allows them to absorb the land they police. I even feel that it possible the parts of Italy that vertically ruled by the alpine confederation my join the northern Italian federal state. When with a new Italian federal state being formed I have sure that Italian nationalist would want to join it and the alpine confederation would be open to a referendum. Note i would pefer to call the Italian federation Padania. Also with go with the independent Padania route do think the Italian pensulair alliance would surrive with just the alpine confderation, Padania, and San Marino as meabers. I the idea of the Italian pensulair alliance expanding to some states and maybe bohemia solvnia corita and monaco .Italian pensulair alliance would be renamed the european allaince and would simliar to otl european unionGoldwind1 (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Since this has now become a much wider conversation, I think I will copy it to the "Regions" section after I proofread and graduate the Monza proposal. Benkarnell (talk) 14:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm doing a proofread now and making some other minor adjustments. I worry that 170,000 people is too high a population. Benkarnell (talk) 18:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Fort Collins

Old proposal, written, abandoned, rescued by Daeseung, never posted here. I'm personally very skeptical that the city would be larger than it was in 1983. And I've now seen enough proposals involving air travel that I really think we ought to form consensus as a group over what is and is not happening in that field. Benkarnell (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Otto von Habsburg

This seems legit as well. I'd push to have him die several years earlier given the stresses and difficulties of the post-1983 world; but that's the only change that I would recommend. Benkarnell (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the hapsburg would have a resurge in popularity post ww3. I also like the idea that the austria decides to resesabklish the hasburgs as the royal family in the late 2000's early 2010's thanks to otto part in forming the alpine confederation and the disvoery that the Hohenzollerns have retaken the prussia throne. I have adopted the alpine confdeation and I will the haspbusb mochary restored as part of the alpine confedation if I can do with voilating perivos canon and if nobodu has any othe objectio

Yes, that would be a big change and need more group support. Part of me doesn't like it - not every country has to be a restored monarchy. But the idea also makes a certain kind of sense, and the careers of both Habsburgs, father and son, show that they'd actually be really good at it. Maybe Otto's funeral could give a boost to royalist ideas and put restoration in people's heads. I don't think Karl would be someone to seek out the title, but he would step up if called on. Benkarnell (talk) 04:49, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Do you think if Karl Hasp burg becomes king of Austria he may try to marry off his children to the children of the royal house of the Monaco and Swabia to get them to join the alpine confederation. After all the Hasp-burgs were know for marrying off their children to acquire landGoldwind1 (talk) 15:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The old Habsburgs maybe, but it's not 1600 anymore. If Austria did create a monarchy in 2010 or 2015, it's not like the country would suddenly become the personal property of the family. Karl would be a symbol and nothing more. If the Confederation expanded, it would do so through diplomacy and politics, the monarch would make no difference. I haven't read about Swabia and don't know how that place is, but Monaco as written is pretty isolationistic, so it would probably not be interested in anything like that. Benkarnell (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I still think that marrage between monarchies can be used to united kingdoms. The kingdoms of Northumbia and Cleveland leaders married and they agreed two kingdoms were merge would they produce an heir and the heir takes the throne. Also I few mariages between morchary a major diplomatic move for helping neogtions on infatuation between parlaiments

I have adopted the kingdom of swabia. They is no metion of hostlty with the alpine confdertion it's self but they have tesnison with bavaira over the city of aluburg

Big difference. The English sub-kingdoms are part of what was a single country within many people's living memory. The little nations that the survivors created are new, with primitive institutions. Austria, on the other hand, is a fully developed modern nation that survived the war intact. Even if it added a monarch to its existing system, his whims and his personal life are not going to affect how the state functions, unless they totally change the way their country works. Benkarnell (talk) 02:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Star Wars and Star Wars Franchise

Two dueling proposals, one by Kelothan and one by Ficboy. Kelothan's fits together with his Tommy Wiseau proposal. Neither is very long and detailed, and actually I think they could be harmonized (except for the Tommy part, if it turns out he's dead, as seems likely). Global copyright law being unenforceable, probably Star Wars is being produced and added to by anyone who has access to the material. Benkarnell (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Sport events

I'll just list them all here. Most haven't been touched in quite some time. I guess the question will be whether it's plausible for the respective countries to host, and the respective teams to attend. If those things are realistic and consistent, I think they should graduate. Benkarnell (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• 2022 World Cup
• 2026 World Cup
• 2011 AFC Asian Cup
• UEFA Euro 2016
• World Open Wheel Racing
• 2018 FIFA World Cup

Has anybody taken time to review these? I'd like to graduate them if there are no problems with them. Benkarnell (talk) 22:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

For my part, the two Olympic proposals are very incomplete and aren't remotely ready, but the others seem OK. The UEFA Euro 2016 is very short, but it's complete in that it contains actual information about how the tournament went. The others are all detailed. I will remove the Olympic proposals from consideration here until they're finished. Benkarnell (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I have a problem with the 2018 FIFA World Cup, many of these stadiums weren't build when Doomsday happened, making them impossible to be here in this timeline. Not to forget such spacious, luxurious stadiums would cost a fortune (one that doesn't seem to be in the hand of countries even at the level of the Soviet Union). More humble stadiums (like they used to be) would fit better. SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:50, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Oof yes, that's a non-starter for me too. It's the same problem as using a person born after 1983. I'll take that off the list and inform the writer (User:Godfrey Raphael). Benkarnell (talk) 00:03, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I also hadn't looked closely enough at the 2015 Rugby World Cup. It has no results, just a lot of 0's. It was made in 2015 by a user who apparently was planning to fill in information, but who made the page and never returned. I'll mark it Open For Adoption and remove it from the list. Benkarnell (talk) 03:01, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Godfrey Raphael, who wrote the 2018 World Cup article, came back and is going to change the newer stadiums, so I'm listing it as a proposal again. Benkarnell (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello, just stating my intent to re-adopt the 2015 Rugby World Cup article.

Godfrey Raphael (talk) 06:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Znojmo Frontier Territory

Proposal I finished ages ago yet haven't ever gotten a graduation on.              Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  19:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Is 215k people too many for a small district like that? Even the settled parts of Europe will not have population densities anywhere near what they are in real life today. Benkarnell (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Cazorla

Tiny nation in Spain written by User:Spinovenator on the one day that they were active last September. No history, but some good visuals. If it weren't for the visuals I'd mark it obsolete, but maybe someone wants to adopt it. Benkarnell (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Mark it - this is pretty much included in the LoN Straits Zone. Lordganon (talk) 02:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Virginian-Delmarvan War

Since Delmarva and Virginia are so aggressive towards each other I wouldn't be surprised if a war broke out. This article explores the possiblility of such a war. If plausible, I think this should graduate. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 10:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

There is no background or basis for this. Such things don't come out of nowhere.

The two states are in fact not in conflict - this makes no sense and isn't plausible.

Lordganon (talk) 02:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Mal3ssio97 has been making extensive updates to Sicily and discussing them on Discord, but it hasn't been posted here yet. Benkarnell (talk) 18:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't he have done that BEFORE doing all these edits? Also, I think it's fair that all change discussions should stick to this talk page and not be divided into too many places. SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it should have been posted here earlier. Benkarnell (talk) 03:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, i just updated my changes on discord because there is where we talk everybody and where we consult each other, i apologize if i didn't do that before or do as Sigma said, but i can do it right now if you want. Mal3ssio97 00:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC) 17/01/21

It would be helpful to everyone if you could summarize here the changes that you have made. Benkarnell (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Here's a list of what i added in the article about Sicily (Italian Republic for me) :

• In this new version the regional government is not tappled or overthrow, but is forced due to superior events to allied themselves with the Cosa Nostra Clans of Palermo.

• The remnants of the clans and those in Eastern Sicily (Not with Cosa Nostra) would collaborate and assist the regional government against the more cruel and violent cosca of the Corleonesi, headed by Totò Riina.

• The Clans that did allied themselves with the government would see their members being given amnysty and the bosses would enter the real political life this time and legally.

• AFB Base of Sigonella would be given to the Italian Armed Forces stationed in the island and to the central government, in return the US personeel will be given Italian citizenship and to live in Italy, this will be extended later on to every NATO or US base encountered.

• The Corleonesi and Riina would be arrested under the charges of multiple homicides and other crimes related to his activites, there will be a maxi trail in Palermo where every main member of the clan would be processed, the propreties and anything of value frozen and seized by the government.

• Between 1985 and 1991 many people, mainly those who did fight against the Mafia before Doomsday would fled the Island, included the Judges Falcone and Borsellino, among many others.

• A new and stable government will be created by 1986, mainly composed by the old members of the regional governments but also new faces from the Mafia, mainly in charge of the economy.

• Between 1988 and 1990 the Sicilian military would oversee the reclamation of the Italian Peninsula up until the River Arno, in 1990 it would sign off a peace treaty with Tuscany, allowing to keep Southern Tuscany, but in returing giving it numerous concessions, among it autonomy and free navigation of the river.

• The government in 1989 would declare the Italian Republic, called also South Italy, it will comprise all of Central and Southern Italy, including Sardinia and Sicily.

• Palermo would since 1983 keep radio communications with Sardinia, Malta, various Italian cities, Tunisia and Libya up until the 1990s, unknowing how is the world in diserray.

• In 1991 the republic would recive the visit of the Australian Benjamin Franklin and the Portughese Abacorza Submarine, entering relationship with Austalia and Portugal, Italy will also send a submarine with the duo up until the Suez Canal.

• In the 90s the government would spend a lot of money to stabilizing and modernizing the poorest parts of Italy or those remain afflicted by the various events before 1983 Doomsday, like the Irpinia Earthquake.

• The government would liberalize much of the suviving economy in order to stimulate it, regulate old and new taxes, legalize prostitution and the use of light and later heavy drugs under stricht state regulations (Like Portugal), creating a tourism based on drugs, but also everyone can make of them.

• The economy of the republic would in many way look like that of the United States, Singapore, South Korea and Japan, where large private companies would hold monopolies over certain sectors.

• Speaking of his government Italy will be a semi presidential republic with a dominant party system like it was Italy before Doomsday and an Illiberal Democracy like Hunghary or Serbia.

Mal3ssio97 00:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Imperial Empire of New York City

Didcot marked this for Review. I think something like this could have existed, but only for a short period of time. Certainly not still around decades later. I suggest keeping the page but saying it lasted 1989-1992 or so, maybe with some lingering presence among a band of devotees for some years after that. Benkarnell (talk) 18:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

No, I love this one. If they can produce food on their own, they can stand for as long as they want unless there's some sort of climatic change that makes it impossible in 1992 on said area to produce food. Why and how would it end to begin with? SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I still think it's not realistic that a community - any community - could persist for decades in New York like that. But how about this: the original founders have moved on, maybe the same blocks are not inhabited as originally, but the idea of the Imperial Empire persisted. There's still an Emperor, but it's more about a concept than a set institution. What do people think? Benkarnell (talk) 17:17, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I would say that the original people are probably long dead by now - poisoning, more or less - but others have moved into the area. As this is probably the closest spot you can reasonably get to NYC, it'd be a sort of destination for wanderers, loners, etc.

Could see at this point, the current leaders being supplied by the outside (LoN, Demlmarva, etc.) in exchange for a safe resting point.

Beyond that.... Not so much.

Lordganon (talk) 04:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Greece

Greece is a big topic. I'm planning to start a pretty deep and wide-ranging rewrite. I'm still in contact with the original writer, User:Mr.Xeight, and we're talking about some of the problems both with his original ideas and how they developed after he left the wiki. Some of the problems can be seen in the way that its writing developed. To briefly summarize how Greece got to be how it is:

1. Mr.Xeight offered his original idea: Greece as a Byzantine revivalist state that conquers all its neighbors and creates a new monarchy. This archived discussion, "New Lands for the Hungry UL", is a good illustration of his original mindset.
2. Other editors workshopped those ideas so that Greece became less powerful, a loosely-governed confederation of survivor states. Its territory expanded, but only because some of those states, in particular the islands, were able to extend help to the people suffering on the opposite shores. And then the League of Nations gave Greece "mandate" control over some other areas.
3. At this point, Mr.Xeight left.
4. A couple of other editors adopted the page and began to flesh it out, notably without marking it as a proposal again.
5. By the time they were done, Greece had become... a Byzantine revivalist state that conquered all its neighbors and created a new monarchy. The idea of expansion happening in small pieces and largely through the LoN was largely dropped.

After a lengthy discussion with Mr.Xeight off site, I have a basic plan for how to make changes to make Greece more realistic. Roughly, here they are:

• The idea of a confederation of small states that slowly reunites will be kept, but the goal will be the recreation of the Hellenic Republic rather than any kind of monarchy.
• The Peloponnese will still be a dictatorship, but Golden Dawn's role will be removed. That was a rather anachronistic element to put into the TL, because Golden Dawn in the 1980s was an irrelevant fringe movement and there are more interesting things that can be done with the region. This is Mr.Xeight's wish for the region - I actually argued that fringe movements have a chance to flourish in a post-apocalypse environment; but he really wants them gone.
• Greek expansion onto some areas of the Turkish coast will occur in roughly similar fashion: beginning as a humanitarian effort that slowly evolves into territorial control. But the expansion onto the African continent is wholly unrealistic. A new history would have to be written for Libya as well as Egypt and the Suez Canal. There's really no justifiable reason for Greece to have those territories in TTL - a shattered, targeted nation expanding into nations that were never targeted.
• The broad timeline of wars with Sicily will be maintained, but reinterpreted somewhat in light of the revisions being made both to Greece and to Sicily.
• Cyprus needs a rewrite to take into account the ethnic and cultural complexity of the place. It is unlikely to end up as Greek territory, but may be an ally. But things are going to get ugly there in the Aftermath period.
• With Istanbul destroyed, the Greeks will at some point try to establish a station there and claim it together with the Hellespont, but this remains a small presence today rather than a large-scale occupation of the whole region of Turkish Thrace.

Anyway, if this does go forward it will be a very big undertaking and probably take a long time and affect many pages. Personally I think it would be worth it, and luckily we have the blessing of the original author. (I can post screenshots if need be.) I hope we can discuss changes and ramifications as a group. Benkarnell (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Just saying that Cyprus would have no other choice but to reunify into a single state in those sort of times (even after it gets ugly as you say), there's just no way to continue the war between them without economic ressources and human cost, they can't afford to, they don't have any support left of Greece and Turkey to fight. They'd have to create a New Cyprus and a new joint identity, return to a pre-1960s Cyprus in terms of demography (before all the troubles lead to Greek-only areas and Turkish-only areas). But yeah, Greece was written like a sort of Greater Greece fan fiction meant to glorify one chauvinistic boy fantasy. I wonder what would happen to Gaddafi and Sissi?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well for Ghaddafi that all depends if he manage to continute to hold control of Libya, and for Al-Sisi if the war with Israel would still happen, and by consequence the destruction of Cairo, as for Libya there are three options; A united Libya under Ghaddafi, a united democratic Libya that overthorw him after a revolution, or a balkanized Libya similar how it is now. Also a united Libya can be the supplier of oil for Southern Europe, mainly Italy and Greece, and being an important African nation as well. Mal3ssio97 15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Chechnya

I'm from Chechnya, I found this page. To say it simply, everything in this page is more unrealistic than the most unrealistic possible reality, and all the page is based on dirty stereo types which do not show the country or people in any way. There is no realism in this page, so we will review it and make big changes that it will actually be a reasonable and realistic page. Nox20 (talk) 16:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

How so? All you're doing is accusing things, not stating how, or why. The page is based on the actual policies, and beliefs, of the Chechen terrorist groups. Not "dirty stereotypes" things.

Beyond that... a review after a discussion is one thing, that was/is another.

Lordganon (talk) 02:33, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

You can keep trying to correct me, but please remember that you are living in North America and have never been to Chechnya, probably never met a Chechen before. So, how can you be so sure that what you write is even reasonable ? Even the admins said that your writing is ridiculous, come talk with me, we can talk about it and teach you things that you clearly do not know. Nox20 (talk) 02:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Again that is exactly what I asked you to do. You have a problem? TELL us what it is. You've done NOTHING more than say that you thought it was wrong and biased. Don't just say that it is wrong, or act like that. That leads to you getting warned, blocked, etc. pretty fast. Lordganon (talk) 03:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Can you also tell me why I am just wrong, even when I know things personally? Go to the talk page of the article and tell me there. I already wrote a little, I can explain more. But you also need to understand that you can't be right on everything, because most of the article that you wrote has no simple historic or reasonable basics on how that can even happen. Go to the Chechnya talk page and reply to what I wrote you there. Nox20 (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

...

That is literally what I have asked you to do several times. You aren't doing it. Speaking that way to someone, and then mouthing off in response? See you later, and be reasonable then.

Lordganon (talk) 03:25, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Where are you going? If You are so certain that only you can be right, then why are you running away when I asked you to go somewhere and explain to me about how I am wrong about it all? If You have a point to defend about why your writing is the only correct and reasonable thing for this Doomsday timeline, then you should do it, work with me on this. Don't be so scared to defend your writing. Nox20 (talk) 03:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Edits to the Editorial Guidelines

To build on what I said in the section above in this archived discussion, I have added the following things to the Editorial Guidelines:

• "Note that there is no strict time limit on how long proposals can sit before there's clear consensus to graduate. If you've posted an idea and nobody has commented, do not assume that it's OK to graduate. Sometimes the project goes quiet for a period as members do other things, and a lack of comments probably means that nobody has seen your Proposal. Try to contact one of the recently active contributors or reach out on Alternate History Wiki's Discord, in the channel #1983-Doomsday. It can be slow and frustrating, but since we take canon seriously, the process is important."
  • This is the only truly new rule to reflect our new reality. It came out of the previous discussion.

• "Don't invent fictional people who were born before 1983. Instead do some research. Maybe there's an obscure local activist or journalist who can survive and step into the role that you have in mind. Some older pages do not follow this rule, but we have tried to correct these as much as possible."
  • We've abided by this rule for a long time, though some earlier content still breaks it (looking at you, Ishe Adeyemi). I just wanted to put it into writing.

• "Conversely, for people born after 1983, you almost certainly should invent a fictional character. The Doomsday event was incredibly disruptive to everyone's lives, everywhere on the planet. It's highly unlikely that the same parents would get together in the same way to produce the same offspring as in our timeline."
  • Another previously unwritten rule, corollary to the above.

• Besides these additions, I deleted the 30-day rule for the Review process. I think that this kind of time limit is unrealistic in the current state of the project. I kept the time limits associated with adopting a page, since these mostly just stick to the adoption policy for the entire site.

I made some other edits to that page, but other than those four it was all for clarity and wording or to reflect the fact that we're now a project with a 14-year history that's not growing quite as fast as it once was. Please use this section for questions or concerns about my edits. Benkarnell (talk) 18:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Another proposal backlog

I've gone through Category:Proposals (1983: Doomsday). It's another massive backlog - over 200 items when I started. Most of what's there is abandoned cruft that can be safely gotten rid of, but among the rest are some actual proposals. Here is how I dealt with them:

• If they were never completed and the user has been inactive for years, I marked them Obsolete.
• If they were never completed and the user has been permanently banned, I deleted them.
  • I think there was one completed proposal by a banned user, I marked it Obsolete.
• If they were never completed and the user has been active semi-recently (within 1 year or so), I contacted the user and kept the Proposal template for now.
• In a few cases, the Under Construction template seemed appropriate for incomplete proposals where the author has been inactive but might come back.
• If they were written by recognized contributors who were just fleshing out their own canonical ideas, I marked them as canon.
• Whatever's left - more or less completed proposals that need discussion before they can be accepted - I listed here. That amounts to 20 new articles to discuss.

I should clarify that I was really generous with what I considered "complete" and "incomplete" - when I judged something as incomplete, essentially I mean that there wasn't even enough content to have a meaningful talk about it. The "never completed" Proposals had nothing but an infobox or a very short paragraph or had histories that only got as far as 1983. Anything substantial I considered "complete", even if there's still plenty of work to be done.

The backlog still numbers a bit more than 100, but I feel like each one of them has at least somebody who's active paying attention to it. The process of cleaning up this project continues. Benkarnell (talk) 20:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I had completely forgotten that we have {{increation83}} and Category:Work in progress (1983: Doomsday) - not Under Construction. Thanks to Firestarthegodcat for the reminder and for adding that template to the Guidelines. I've moved everything into the proper category. I think I'll keep Category:Under Construction (1983: Doomsday) as an empty category because it's likely to be used again. Benkarnell (talk) 19:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS

Archive 1

Wyoming

IS there any objections to my adoption of Wyoming and my edits? 2020ckeevert (talk) 20:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Adopting Brazil

Hey, is there any problem to contribute in/adopt the few articles of Brazil in the timeline? I believe that there is some stuff that needs to be revised.

I have changed a few bits in the story, to be more adapted to the timeline. Bolsonaro's campaign was mostly concentrated on the internet, so I'm not sure that he would rise in the same way in the timeline.

Mass (talk) 18:27, June 8, 2020 (UTC)

Hi Mass, if you want Brazil you need to formally requested it in his discussion page and if no one will answer to you in a week then it's yours. Mal3ssio97 1/10/20

I agree that the politics should be different. In general that's a flaw I see in several of the Latin American countries: relying too much on the same leaders from OTL without appreciating the massively different context that they live in. Benkarnell (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Beside, Bolsonaro relied on a specific political and social climate to rise to power, one of nolstalgic recomfort for the dictatorships days, paranoia resulted from social media. It's very explicit here that Doomsday resulted in a permanent change of mentality away from dictatorships (hence why the people overthrew all the puppet leaders that tyrannized them in 1983:DD before forming the South American Confederation). For someone of said regime, I think there's 0 chance here to have him ever be politician in such social mindset. SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Maybe is better continue this conversation in other side, I dont' know, but recetly i was working in the list of presidents of some south american countries and saw some of this issues in Peru for example, with Fujimori governed until 2005, although maybe this is explain by Piura crisis. Also in Paraguay Stroessner remain in power until his resignation in 2002 (the 1989 Coup failed). Regards! Katholico (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Malawian Civil War

I am looking to expand the Malawi page and I wanted to add a more detailed description of what events occurred during the Malawian Civil War.  

Is this User:Goldwind1? Or someone else? Because Goldwind created Malawi ages ago and is currently very active in the 1983DD revival. Benkarnell (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Or is this User:Flabby cheeks for life? I left a message on their talk page, saying they need to ask Goldwind for permission. Please sign your talk page comments, everyone. Benkarnell (talk) 01:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

KwaXhosa

I would like to adopt this article, I am Murph again, if you need to contact me read the above thing I have details there.

Ivory Coast

I've noticed that the Ivory Coast page is a stub and I want to expand on it. I was going to add information relating to an Ivorian Civil War that occurs in the 1990s or 2000s, which would include the factions in Liberia such as the DRL. Does this seem fine? I will also be adding information on the Ivory Coast's economy, military, and geography. (Flabby Cheeks for life) (Talk)

Oerwinde is the creator and caretaker of the West African Union, so please reach out on his talk page. He was last active at the end of last year, so he's not completely gone. In the meantime I see that you have started writing the history up through 1999. Are you planning to write more? If you are, please hold off until we hear (or don't) from Oerwinde. Benkarnell (talk) 17:23, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Newolland

Hello

Since Smoggy80, the creator of Newolland, didn't mind me reverting the reverts of Nay Mate Woody changes. I'll remake Leicester and the Sons of DeMontFord (yeah I know, quite the cliche and kitsch title but hey I'm not the one who made it so) canon as making the Leicester Arc canon in Newolland makes it canon in its own article, these are my intentions. That is, if no one objects. In that case, I'm willing to negociate in good faith. If consensus or lack of objection is maintained for a week with all objections resolved, I'll become the caretaker of Newolland.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Niue

Continuing my tour through Oceania, I am fleshing out Niue with GOPZACK's cooperation. Very small island means not a very long article, so I think the history part is done. Benkarnell (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

2015 Rugby World Cup

I would like to state my intent to re-adopt the 2015 Rugby World Cup article.

Godfrey Raphael (talk) 07:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)