Talk: 1983: Doomsday

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Old Discussion Archives: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8
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GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

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Recent events in the USA

14 states

14 stars

Hello. GryffindorKrypton and I (edit: and Goldwind1) are going to be doing quite a bit on the recent history of the USA, since 2015 or so. Gryff has already contributed multiple USA-related pages on some cities and individuals, including the capital Torrington. I just finished work on the newest state, Cimarron. I think we've agreed on some of the broad outlines of recent events. Cimarron is going to be the third state to join since that time period, after the San Juan Islands and Cascadia. These expansions seem like the logical next step for the new US government. That brings the number of states to 14, and the flag to the one on my right. This section is for discussing those and other changes. Benkarnell (talk) 00:52, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

can we add Lincoln Lakota MSP Hannibal Pasco Nevada Navajo and Utah as statesOldsvito2999 (talk) 13:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I moved this comment from the bottom of the page to this section. To answer your question, I think most of us are in agreement that Pasco and MSP (now renamed Republic of Jefferson will be states pretty soon. I'm not sure about the others, which have much more developed identities as independent nations. Probably the idea of statehood is a constant topic of debate in those places, and if I had to guess I'd say that Utah is the likeliest of the set to want to join. False Dmitri (talk) 17:09, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Bring back Washington state as a US state, make astoria and northern msp part of oregon Oldsvito2999 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I edited Pasco and MSP pages that itll be us states soonOldsvito2999 (talk) 20:04, 13 March 2021 (UTC) i added california part of the future us statesOldsvito2999 (talk) 20:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Um Vito sir? You need to ask authorization and endorsement for doing such changes, else it's against the rules in place. SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:26, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, everything has to go through the Proposal process. Especially the USA pages, which are group property of basically everyone currently involved. We had agreed to a general plan for expansion, like I said with Pasco and Jefferson probably being the next ones. But please discuss your plans here before making changes. False Dmitri (talk) 23:21, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, seconding what Dmitri said. Plus Goldwind1 currently has custodianship over the MSP/Jefferson page. He has already discussed plans for eventually integrating Jefferson as a US state, it's just a matter of when, I think. Goldwind1 has also discussed Nevada as well, so that's on the table too. As Dmitri said, Pasco and Utah are also likely on the way.

But as SigmaHero045 has pointed out, you do need to go through the formal process of requesting custodianship of the individual pages, on both the page's talk page and on its original creator's talk page, then waiting a week or so for a response. For the nation as a whole, we're all collaborating.

But I want to give you a sincere welcome to the project! I hope you have fun with this! :) GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton so 18 states eventuallyOldsvito2999 (talk) 10:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Oldsvito2999, I forget to mention yesterday: you asked about Hannibal as well; I'm the current custodian, and I had written about the locals there being pro-unification. If I recall correctly, Zack (one of the original contributors, who still comes in every now and then) and I discussed merging Joplin (which is his creation) with Hannibal and some towns to form a new version of Missouri that would rejoin the USA together. There's also the US Atlantic Remnant, which canonically voted for US statehood 9 years ago, but has been in a state of political union with the US mainland rather than full statehood since then. If I remember correctly, somewhere on this talk page in the past year some of us had discussed moving forward with finally moving it to full statehood. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yes krypton make the new missuori a sate sometime and are you intereseted in my uncolonized americas pageOldsvito2999 (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Don't forget Lincoln's in the wayOldsvito2999 (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I think I had been the one asking about full statehood for the Virgin Islands. But others convinced me that the islands are too remote for that. It may have to wait at least until the USA has some kind of access to the Gulf of Mexico, or else more cheap and reliable air travel. False Dmitri (talk) 16:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the Virgins, much as they want it, just doesn't really make physical sense right now. Maybe something akin to a more powerful/independent otl PR arrangement? Get to eat their cake that way, but not offend the mainlanders.

I would say that Missouri and Arkansas are probably a bit far east at this point, especially given the "spilt" nature and influence of Kentucky.

Utah, Lakota, and Navajo, not really going to happen I suspect.

Arizona, NM, Southern Cali about the same as Ark/Missouri. I do know that Visalia and Chumash aren't interested, and areas east of there are under Mexican/Texan influence.

The CR.... that's probably a bit complicated. Barely a nation in many ways, really. I'd even avoid the area as a territory right now, imo. Maybe Napa instead? There's something there if memory serves.

MSP if they could get organized would work well, as noted.

Sierra Nevada, given Utah and the CR, I don't see playing "ball" right now. Too many factors, and they're doing pretty well as it is. Maybe the NAU?

Lincoln is actively hostile, and International Falls wouldn't be able to choose. Olmstead would be something the government didn't even want to consider, probably.

Given the annexation of the panhandle... surprised no one is bringing up Stillwater. Stable and nearby....

Lordganon (talk) 18:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Missed Astoria! Not interested, plus I can see Vicky/the new US liking them as a buffer anyways. Lordganon (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

So, does anyone have any ideas to help me flesh out Wyoming's history a little more? I would also like to ascertain exactly what counties make up Absaroka. When Wyoming is fully fleshed out, I imagine then I would like to work a bit on fleshing out Nebraska and the other states. Those articles are in major need of work. 2020ckeevert (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)Crook.

Native lands as of 1995 (map has been partly superseded?)

Torrington district within Goshen County

Absaroka actually has been mapped, though this map is vague and a bit confusing... but I think the intention is clear to make Absaroka consist of the easternmost tier of counties in both Wyoming and Montana. So for Wyoming, that would be the counties of Crook, Weston, and Niobrara. And Goshen County is still part of Wyoming, minus a small square centered on Torrington itself, as the second map shows. (And this means that I need to adjust the national map that I made.) False Dmitri (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Alright, that's quite helpful. I edited the area to be the current state minus the three northeastern most counties, though how big is the District of Torrington? Also, I would like help in adding in the history between 1984 and the start of the Lakota War.2020ckeevert (talk) 00:10, 27 March 2021 (UTC) Also, we need to begin work on the 2020 election. I have heard some people want the Oregon Democracy Coalition to try and establish a centrist third party, some think there might be an Indian party, and a nationalist party? Anyone have any ideas?2020ckeevert (talk) 00:13, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

The second map shows the size of Torrington within Goshen County. So it's not very big at all. (I just added captions to the maps.) The political party conversation on Discord was partly me complaining that keeping the same 2 parties was a missed opportunity. But yes, it would certainly be possible to retcon the history so that while the same 2 parties have dominated the presidency, there have been others, maybe more popular at the state or regional level. I think anything is possible, and an Indian interest party is certainly a possibility, as are the others that you said. False Dmitri (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey guys, when I designed the federal district size within Goshen County, it left a big chunk of area still part of Goshen County, which is rather large in OTL.

As for the 2020 election, last summer I'd started working on some proposals for a couple of possible candidates. One was Heidi Heitkamp. The other was Patrick Kennedy. Heitkamp offers the possibility of being the USA's first female President in the 2020 election, after an initial unsuccessful attempt in 2016. My Kennedy idea was based on how the original generation of 1983DD contributors seemed to have been positioning John F. Kennedy Jr. as the CRUSA chairman and eventual US President until evidence surfaced showing that he probably would've died on Doomsday. I did some research and found that Patrick Kennedy (Ted Kennedy's son) was in a place that wasn't directly hit, and theoretically could've survived, so I began putting together a proposal for him to basically take the place in the timeline that had originally been planned for JFK Jr. I admit that it's a longer shot than Heitkamp's story, but I think I found an interesting angle of how nobody before Doomsday expected him to carry on the Kennedy family legacy, until it's essentially thrust upon him by world events. That, plus his battles with addiction, could make for an interesting comeback story.

Also, since the USAR's current status seems to be similar to that of OTL Puerto Rico and other US territories, I was thinking about adding a mention into its article as well as the USA article about the USAR being able to vote on presidential primaries but not the general November elections, as is the case with US territories in OTL.

Let me know what you guys think! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:00, 31 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I could see alternate parties doing a bit better than otl, especially at a more local level, but... I doubt it goes beyond that. Certainly you're going to see more "regional" native parties, though I see those as being more advocate groups that normally endorse candidates, rather than run their own, though they would run one if they felt it needed. I say parties, not party, since that would probably go over better.

Both main parties in the new US can be called nationalist. It's the other ones that may have inklings otherwise.

Much as I like(d) the idea of the ODC running as a third national centrist party, I just can't see it getting anywhere outside of Oregon itself. Would be seen as an Oregon thing, I suspect - with a dash of too "out there" for the taste of many. Probably an advocacy group here, with more of a local following with regards to running candidates.

I think adding that line about the USAR would be a plan.

From the eastern (state) border of Goshen County to the center of Torrington is in the region of six miles - use that as the basis of the district, and we have twelve miles on each side, slightly bigger than the otl DC, which is/was ten on a side at creation. Big enough to expand plenty and leave wilderness galore, and doesn't absorb any other towns, falling a mile or so short of the small town of Lingle (which likely would become some sort of military center, ala~ Arlington). Torrington has roughly half the population of the county (6.5k/13k), and we also remove about 124 miles square form the county size, leaving 2,000 miles squared left or so. Even adjusting the size of the district established here, you still leave a ton of county behind. Move the county seat to Lingle or Fort Laramie, and all is good. (probably Lingle, given where people will likely move to)

Hate to say it, but while Patrick J. Kennedy would survive DD itself, I can't see him going past that very far. Andover isn't all that far from Lowell, a strike, to start, but... Have a look at the wind fallout map. That area is basically where all of it from Boston et. al. goes.... and we know it was bad enough from other articles (Vermont) that the Portsmouth area, just to the NE, to kill people in that direction before 1984 hits. I can't see him working out between those things.

If you want someone from outside this area, go for Brian Schweitzer, who was the D governor of Montana from 2005-2013 otl. In the early 1980s, he was mostly involved with setting up irrigation/farming in Saudi Arabia, among other places (he is on record as saying he went to more than thirty countries between 1980 and 1986) and his family has a ranch near Whitefish, Montana which he is very attached to.

Lordganon (talk) 07:02, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Conflict in Britain

I'm making this section to discuss the ongoing development of Great British Civil War and Edward Poll, and the giant set of events being planned around them. This was begun by MrWoodward, but he's stepped away from the wiki. SigmaHero045 plans to revise and finish all this. For now I've archived the enormous yearlong discussion at Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Great British Civil War and Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Edward Poll. False Dmitri (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

The following is copied from the archived section. - False Dmitri (talk)

I have some thoughts about how this project could proceed further. I agree with the consensus from others about the reunification of England (or most of it, anyway) being inevitable for geographic and historical/cultural reasons, and the angle of New Britain playing a decisive role in that makes for an interesting story. However, I think this would work better if Queen Zara of Cleveland becomes head of state rather than Andrew, since Zara has remained in England with her mother since Doomsday and cannot be accused of "abandoning the homeland." Here's one way it could happen: the New British fleet arrives in England, as suggested by the previous editors, to put down Lord Protector Poll's claim to power. King Andrew goes along with them, thinking it would be good publicity for him to be seen leading his troops in the field. However, at some point during the conflict, Andrew is hit by a Pollist rifleman's bullet on the battlefield, and eventually succumbs to his wounds. This makes Queen Zara the next Windsor in line for the throne in a reunified England and also makes her the nearest claimant for the throne in New Britain, thus unifying the crowns. (It also works as a nice shout out to that other famous post-apocalyptic story, V for Vendetta, where Zara is on the throne as well, at least nominally).

There are two possibilities for how Zara's ascension might affect England-NB governmental structure afterwards: 1. England and New Britain could theoretically remain technically separate nation-states that share the same monarch (like the UK and Canada in real life), or 2. we could follow Mr.Woodward's suggestion of formally consolidating them into a United Kingdom of England and South Africa (or UK of England and New Britain), as he suggested. Personally, I think the second possibility is a bit more fascinating storywise. A United Kingdom of England and New Britain would be an interesting "1983DD twist" I think.

I also have a couple questions: If and when this reunion happens, should it use the pre-Doomsday version of the Union Jack, or perhaps one of the new suggestions by SigmaHero045 back in March 2020? I'd also suggest the possibility of maybe some fusion of the old Union Jack and the modified one that New Britain uses.

EDIT: I've created a proposal for how a combined version of the old and new Union Jack could look in the proposed United Kingdom of England and New Britain. I think it looks pretty nifty!

Also, does anyone have any ideas where the new English capital should be? New London is under CA control, I believe, otherwise I would've suggested it. Cleveland's capital Middlesbrough is one possibility, since Zara is already based there. But somewhere more central or in the south of England could work too. Anyway, I'm fascinated by the places this storyline could go. Let me know what you think. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:11, 4 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Ossetia (1983: Doomsday)

I noticed that the Osettia Doomsday 1983 article is faulty.

Vladikavkaz was city is an industrial and transportation centre and merited a tactical nuke. It is a big and implausible plot device that "The capital city of Vladikavkaz was also hit by a non-nuclear cruise missile, though it largely missed." A whole fleet would be used in a city since a single one would take out only couple of factories (see the Iraq War).

My rewrite would run as follows: A 10kt tactical nuke hit the military airfield at Mozdok. a non-nuclear cruise missile hit Beslan Airport, the Vladikavkaz zinc production site's main plant and Vladikavkaz railway station. The 10kt tactical nuclear cruise missile that should have hit the city center came along, though it largely missed and exploded mostly harmlessly in the mountains north of the town of Tarskoye.

Didcot1 (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

...Most of that really isn't all that helpful, to be honest. I've made an adjustment to the article, not sure how we/I didn't notice this when I spruced it up to make it presentable for the original author.

As an fyi, btw, tactical weapons have a limited range.... far less than here. And missiles really don't come that small, either.

Lordganon (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Panamanian Federation

I'm not sure whether this needs to be marked as a proposal or not. It's a fork of West Panama, a page that is "mine". It captures the recent history since 2011 (the last time I worked on it) and 2012 (the last time anyone at all worked on it). As I wrote the history on the West Panama page, I realized that it would work better split off and formatted as a "nation" article. The gist of it is that after Colombia took major steps to tighten its control of eastern Panama in 2012, and made their first major incursion into the west, the divided and bickering communities of western Panama finally got over themselves and formed a permanent union, which has been more successful than earlier attempts. False Dmitri (talk) 22:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I very much like it, it brings lore and history to a region that is not very highlated compared to the rest and is very resonable that Panamanians will bring themselves togheter and form a federal state for protect their state and let the world know that 'Panama no es muerta', plus with further attempts by the Colombians of getting on the other side of the canal i think anti-colombian resentiment might grow up, especially in nationalist circles and parites. Mal3ssio97 22:40, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Map of Europe

Hi guys, it's Alessio again, this time i have completely redesign the European map of 1983: Doomsday, by this year a decade old. I took the time and the idea of redone it and also expand some nations. If you have any question just ask and let me know how it is. Mal3ssio97 02:05, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

can you do north american and asian mapsOldsvito2999 (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

...Probably half of those borders or nations are wrong to some degree, varying from nations that don't exist being on it, to massive territorial errors. Especially in the east. Lordganon (talk) 03:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Commonwealth of ANZ coat of arms

Goodmorning to everyone, i replaced the old and ugly ANZC coat of arms with a new one, with the same design of the flag. I used a just plain shield and using a per pale sable and vert heraldic shield, then i put the stars over the shield. I know that is similar to the OTL coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but i think it fit Australia and New Zealand, they are a young nation, just like Bosnia and without any heraldic common history. Ale Mal3ssio97 11:42, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's the coat of arms

Many articles are in need of better maps

Greetings. Like it says in the subheading, many maps are old, outdated and inaccurate. May I ask for permission to make them better? Here's some examples of my work: Example 1, Example 2. OStAlig (talk) 17:58, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Cool style - its overall vibe fits this setting quite well! Everyone is welcome to contribute at any time. When you update a map, please share it here so that everyone sees it and can discuss it. False Dmitri (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Maps for the Guyana Cooperative

I've made my first few maps, focusing on the Guyana Cooperative. I made both a Wikipedia-style map and a more stylized, terminal-style map that, while more visually appealing, does not fit in with the more encyclopedic tone of the articles. I also made a proposal for potential regions of the country in the style of Wikipedia's administrative division maps. Which should I add to the page?

Wikipedia style

Terminal style

Regions (proposal)

OStAlig (talk) 21:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Don't be afraid to go against the tone. The original writing for Doomsday (saved here, and largely still intact on the Timeline) was more narrative than encyclopedic. And there are some examples of other pages written in different styles: the Media Archive has several interviews and other bits of ATL-journalism. Sadly that kind of thing seems to have mostly stopped after 2010, but this is still a project that's big enough to have room for diverse styles for both writing and visuals. Personally I wish we had way more cool looking maps that don't just look like Wikipedia. False Dmitri (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey OStAlig, as custodian of the Guyana Cooperative page, I just wanted to say thanks for the contribution of the maps! They look great! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Adding new pre-DD media to some pages?

Can be some pre-DD goverment ideas add on some countries to explain better the story of them during 1983? I.E, here´s the pre-DD spanish goverment, all of their members died

A photo of the last known Spanish Goverment, that died on Doomsday after the Soviets nuked Madrid, and other military bases and cities. After that, the country fell to anarchy and chaos. The image was took in December 7, 1982, and shows the cabinet of Felipe González from the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE), that was formed on 3 December 1982 following the latter's election as Prime Minister of Spain by the Congress of Deputies on 1 December and his swearing-in on 2 December, 1982

CentraleuropeDD (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

1. I moved this discussion to the correct place. Please don't use the "Add Topic" button here, instead find the appropriate section and add a subsection.
2. You're talking about the direct effects of 1983? This seems OK to me, as it largely is just adding some detail to information that we already know.

False Dmitri (talk) 13:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1 • Page 2 • Page 3

Comics

I have no objections to graductioning Marvelo Comics. Speaking of Comics does body like the idea of a comic company based in Nigeria, The Alpine Confedertion, Tiawan, India, New Britian Texas or Canada.Goldwind1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC) (Copied from another section by Benkarnell (talk) 18:08, 26 January 2021 (UTC))

History of ideas (1983: Doomsday)

I started this article recently. I'm trying to think about how Ideas would develop around the world post-1983: philosophy, the humanities, religion, science, political theory - intellectual life in general. It's marked as a Work in Progress rather than a Proposal because it's really unfinished. Right now it's mostly just my own musings and speculations, maybe not very well focused. But I think this is an article that would benefit from more than one person's point of view. So anyone is invited to add to it - especially the section "by Region", but really to any of it. False Dmitri (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey Dmitri! Sounds like a fascinating article! I had some ideas about adding to it. For instance, I remember writing a while back in the religion section of the Caribbean Federation article how Rastafarianism sees a boom in growth after Doomsday. The reasons being that 1970's-80's era Rastafarianism tended to be very critical of the outside world and believed that the modern world at that time was on a destructive course. I could imagine many people in the Caribbean, whether rightly or wrongly, seeing Doomsday as a vindication of that idea, and many of them embracing that belief system in the aftermath. I could also imagine many in-universe Christian denominations believing that the events of the Book of Revelation had finally occurred, and having various responses on what to do next. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yes, please add to it! There's a separate section for the West Indies now, so you can add a paragraph or two about Rastafari. And for North America and Europe, the places probably most likely to see apocalyptic preaching, there's very little on religion so far. Actually in general there's not enough religion on that page, though there is also a separate Religion (1983: Doomsday). False Dmitri (talk) 17:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I also added a bit about a resurgence of Deism in North America as well, and tied it into your idea about American survivors embraced a lot of older, pre-Cold War ideologies. Deism had been popular and influential among the American Founding Fathers, and I could imagine people embracing some of its viewpoints on the universe in the aftermath of Doomsday. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5

Hello guys

Hey guys im new here. Im an average history buff, but mostly im interested in WW2. You can contact me if you need anything. I have written a handful of articles, and made 2 timelines but both of them were discontinued. - PnutbatahSandwich

Salento

Hello to everyone, i have started two days ago at rewriting the Lecce in my sandbox, is almost done as i only need to finish up economy and defense, i added much more lore then in the canon page and also much more informations about the regions itself and adjusted some contradictions: https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User:Mal3ssio97/Sandbox Mal3ssio97 00:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26

Italian Confederation

I dicuased the of the naitons of ittalian pensual allince minus san mariono federlasing with Mal3ssio97. I talked with him because he own the nations in question. He said he was open to the idea. I gave him a chance to start the articel but he didn'tdo and i got taired of waiting and start my sel. Mal3ssio97 if you have changed your mind i will dealte this arcitle

Take the time to reread yourself, please. It's just...too much, I can't read. SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:46, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

It's been over two weeks. Is there going to be any content to this proposal?

Either way, this is to me more a vision for the future, not something that exists presently. I personally don't think Italy is ready for something like this yet. False Dmitri (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

My idea is that by 2010s, afte the War against Palermo the Italian Peninsular Alliance will become a new political and economic organization, the Italian League will be a organization with the goal of uniting more politically and with economical measures the northern part of the Peninsula, in order to both exit the semi protectorate states that some Italian nations have and to have a common goal for the future. Mal3ssio97 22:41, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

So an EU-like organization, but for Northern Italy. What do you exactly envision for it?              Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  14:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Natalie Hershlag

I have already written up an article about Natalie Hershlag, the 1983: Doomsday version of OTL's Israeli-American Jewish actress. Since her parents, Avner and Shelley, were living in Jerusalem in 1983 just one year before moving to the States this mean that they alongside their daughter survived the nuclear catastrophe that shook the world since the city was spared from bombardment thanks to the IDF shooting down missiles intended to blow up the place. Since her Hollywood stardom path is obviously butterflied, she would likely become politician and leader of Da'am (a joint Jewish-Arab party) since national unity would be very prevalent amongst most Israeli ethnic groups after Doomsday aside from some exceptions such as terrorist organizations like the Hamas Caliphate or ultranationalists like Likud (which I hope to outline much later).

Right now, I'm trying to place a photo of her at Columbia University on the article as if she were speaking at a political meeting but I can't properly make it upload. Ficboy

This seems fine to me. Israel in general is heinously under-developed. Basically no history written after 1983, just the implication that it annexed Sinai and the Palestinian Territories, without ever saying how. (And honestly that needs to be looked at: how did a nation smashed by nuclear weapons manage to take territory from a nation that was never targeted??) So is this the start of a more complete exploration of Israel's history? If so, that's exciting. But either way this article seems OK to make canon. False Dmitri (talk) 21:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

All of that is covered in Egypt's History. Suffice to say, the Muslim Brotherhood took over the government there, picked a fight with desperate Israelis, who nuked them in response. Lordganon (talk) 03:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

That's pretty ridiculous for a number of reasons, though probably it's too long a conversation to go into here... But actually it's not clearly written anywhere how Israel managed to survive as a coherent nation - plenty of countries in TTL had a lower density of targets but still collapsed, either temporarily or permanently. I don't know, as for Natalie, maybe this proposal has to wait until we know more of that background history. The proposal implies a more or less normally-functioning society for most of Natalie's life, something that to me seems very far from certain, and actually quite implausible.

(edit) One solution may be to hold some of the details in this article in abeyance - either comment them out or move them to the talk page - until we know more about Israel's history. The main thrust of the proposal is certainly fine: that Natalie survived in Israel, became a politician, emphasized unity and reconciliation between Israel and Palestine. In fact that's another thing that's hinted but never explained: that Israel and Palestine merged or something. It may turn out that Natalie played a role in that process. False Dmitri (talk) 19:55, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit) I hope someone can really edit Israel's 1983: Doomsday page to add more information about the political and social history of Israel. Considering the after-effects of Doomsday, Israel and Palestine would unite for the sake of survival even if they have some differences. The setup for Natalie is solid and can work as you said. In fact, why not have her play a role in the Israel-Palestine peace process like you suggested. As far as her life is concerned, let's be honest it isn't stable since she and her family were confined to their bunker not to mention the steady stream of Arab refugees into Jerusalem. Ficboy (talk), 20:09, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I meant the stability implied by having Natalie graduate from Walworth Barbour American International School. There's no reason to assume that something like that would still be functioning in 1985 - the country had just been hit by thirteen nuclear warheads. Normal life was not going to just carry on after that, it would take a generation at least. And by details about the unwritten history of Israel, I mean "the War on Terror against the Hamas Caliphate from 1999 to 2003", as well as the mention of Benjamin Netanyahu. Both of those things strike me as overly convergent, even cliche. "War on Terror" is a George Bush catchphrase from the early 2000s. Hamas didn't exist in 1983, and anyway its OTL goals do not include the establishment of a caliphate. And we don't know whether Netanyahu became a prominent politician in TTL - and for me, it's always more interesting to use lesser-known figures. And anyway, it would be much better if all that were worked out as part of a more intentional plan to write Israel's history - not just casually mentioned like this, thereby becoming canon that would constrain future writers.

So my point is the same: I think this can work, but without some of those details, until we know more. False Dmitri (talk)

To be fair, life is far from stable in Israel since her family in this timeline had to stay in their bunker for a while and that's not getting into the massive Palestinian refugee surge in Jerusalem. Also, I checked up the Walworth Barbour International School and it was located in Even Yehuda which is near Tel Aviv and not Jerusalem, so that detail has to be changed. Also, if there is a Hamas or at least an alternate timeline equivalent they would have different goals due to the chaos and destruction caused by Doomsday (I took the idea of Hamas wanting to establish a caliphate from The Eagle Down Under timeline by LouisTheGreyFox). As for Benjamin Netanyahu, he was Deputy Chief of Staff for the Israeli Embassy in Washington DC and since it was nuked in the Doomsday-verse, he's pretty much toast unless he is able to escape just in time. Overall, I agree that the basic premise can work but we really need to rework the details. Ficboy (talk).

I 100% agree with that. For now, with the history of Israel still mostly unwritten, I would still recommend trying to create the character of Natalie without all that many details about that bigger history. Telling her life story, creating this political career and personality for her, but in a way that doesn't commit you to all that many details about Israel and Palestine in general. False Dmitri (talk) 18:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as Netanyahu is concerned, since he would be an adult at this point, he may or may not survive this timeline and might enter politics but regardless his career as an MP would certainly not be the same as OTL. Hell, he might not even become Prime Minister. Ficboy (talk) 03:35, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, I am looking for a photo of her as if she were a politician in this timeline instead of a Democratic actress of our world. I've checked up the photo thread for 1983: Doomsday in Alternate History Discussion. At page 33, it has a few photos of her from OTL that can be used for her Doomsday character page. I can't upload a photo properly onto this website so I suggest False Dimitri that you should post one of the three photos on that thread from AHD, please. Ficboy (talk) 04:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC).

Oh man, this is still being discussed over there? Could you link to that? I'm not even sure which forum to look in. False Dmitri (talk) 11:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Here it is. https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/photos-from-1983-doomsday.431280/page-33 Ficboy (talk) 11:54, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Subalpine Federation 

I have revived the page about the Subalpine Republic, it has been agreed also by Thewolvesden and by Benkarnell that this page does fit into the lore of 1983: Doomsday and so it can be added again as a proposal Col. James Hsu 23:01, 28th September 2020. 

I'm moving this to the Proposals section, since that's what it is. And I. must point out that the conversation on Discord was between James Hsu and Thewolvesden - I wasn't actually involved and haven't had time to read this yet. Benkarnell (talk) 20:55, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

How can it even coexist with the Alpine Federation? And do you imagine all the wars and geopolitic that would have to be rewritten to make it work?

17:55, October 3, 2020 (UTC)SigmaHero045 (talk)

What do you mean by that ? And the Alpine Confederation is one of the most important allied of the federation, also not that much articles need to be rewritten in order to be fit into the lore. Only a couple since it change only Italy Mal3ssio97 03/10/2020 

I think this could work, but it needs some significant changes. In general, it's too big, too prosperous, and emerges too early. This does create conflicts with canonical information about the region.

The central change that needs to happen is the description of how the federation came to be in 1991. A peaceful referendum of all the communities of the area. If this became canon, the whole history of the region would not make sense. If this alliance were capable of good civil administration over such a big area at this time, why wouldn't they simply unite with Genoa and Tuscany too? A state like that, with its affairs clearly in order, would have become the driver of Italian reunification. But we know that Italy is not united. That means that the pockets of control in the 80s and 90s were small, struggling, and most of all non-contiguous. So 1991 could be when some surviving villages and refugee camps in the area entered into some kind of alliance. Later they could establish a more regular government, using the 1848 republic as a model. But even then, I don't think it would be the sedate referendum portrayed here.

In terms of geopolitics, what has been known about this area until now was that it's part of the Alpine Confederation's sphere of influence. That should not change with this new discovery. All existing maps show that Alpine troops have a presence here; that means at least a base and a guarantee of free passage through the territory.

A few other issues that need to be addressed:

• The population: I doubt there is a single spot in Europe that has a higher population now than in 1983. It was not just the deaths from war. It was also the subsequent decades of worse diet, worse health care, and low birth rates. If you adjust the chronology and the size of the communities, you should get to a more realistic number.
• The economy: At some points it makes sense, for example noting that the economy relies on agriculture and receives significant foreign aid, and some recent foreign investment. But this picture is contradicted by the rest of the proposal. It presents a nation with an industrialized economy and a modern, first-world standard of living. Again, if a small federation in Italy were able to achieve this, the rest of Italy would make no sense. Industry can be going through some revival. Nutella can be happening. But not at the scale now implied. The modern capitalist economy has not reappeared in places that were heavily attacked like Europe - simply because there is not much capital anymore.
• Globalization: Many parts of the world are less isolated now than they were in 2010, but this is still not a world where companies in northern Italy are going to be opening up offices around the world. And I have not seen any suggestion at all that international commercial air traffic has come back. I would expect goods, recorded media, and possibly some investment from South America to have reached the Subalpine region by now; but the robust global economy implied here does not exist. And certainly there are no European companies with enough capital to start investing overseas. This also applies to the media companies.
• Energy: I'm uncertain on the possibility of a pre-war nuclear power plant surviving and functioning all the way down through the years. The best possible scenario, I think, would be that a competent crew working within a stable town could shut the plant down safely, avoid meltdown, and contain the radioactive materials. And I do not think that anyone in Italy would want to consider bringing it back online in later years. Most people would be understandably terrified of nuclear power.
• Foreign relations: I'm not sure that it has the resources to operate embassies in so many countries. A few overseas, sure, but not so many. And the Alpine Confederation no doubt is empowered to represent its interests in some other countries.

On the other hand, I really like the vision of the French newcomers changing the culture of the region. Most 1983dd pages portray refugees solely as a threat, and don't think about their influence on the host country in the long term. This actually inspires me to write about similar changes in some of my countries for this timeline.

I also think that the form of government is reasonable. Except that, again, it should be presented as emerging later. Maybe even post-2010. Most of the written history of Italy stops around 2010, so if we say that this Federation reached its complete form after that, it would avoid interfering with canon.

I also really like the flag, arms, map, photos, and political graphics. Visually it's a good addition to the timeline.

I'm willing to help proofread the English, but I'll wait until the content is revised.

- Benkarnell (talk) 16:00, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Basic idea good, but the region is part of the territories controlled by the Alpines. Lordganon (talk) 02:54, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice

This section is copied from the archived discussion at "Some Proposals I've been working on". - Benkarnell (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice - Was at Stanford on Doomsday in OTL. I've traced a potential post-Doomsday bio for her, in which she serves in various teaching and diplomatic roles in California. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Your article you should add more details and be more clear so someone who doesn't know who she is (like me) know how she went from Alabama to a Carter administration job to Denver to California. How did she gain her reputation as a Soviet specialist? Did the fallout affected her area (be careful to not have a version different from canon here)? Warning: Remember that the Municipal Pacific States only came to be in the second half of the 2000s so you're making a lot of big contradictions here. Even more in contradiction: look at how far the MSP region is from Santa Cruz, not to forget all the nuked areas in the way just to arrive at an unstable warlords-driven living hell lacking in everything whom the terryfying word of mouth about the crual Boss Jones come out spreading throughout the west coast. Unless her colleagues were suicidal or just stupid, I don't think they would want to go there. The California republic is not better by much: the government in the second half of the 90s collapsed and they are victims of foreign attacks, they'll only reform in 2006, de facto 2003. It was pretty much anarchy until then. With what path will they go to anywhere? Chumash? On civil war. Sierra Nevada? In a Spokane war of some sort (not much details). The only somewhat safe place to go would be Visalia and be accepted residing there by the authorites by doing manual labour there until a better option could be found. Then when the California republic would reform and actually be stable, her whole gang of intellectuals could go take refuge there realistically around 2006-7 and start working at that college before she go do her diplomatic thing. I wonder under such a story if Visalia would accept her (or if she would feel comfortable enough to do it given her record up there of fleeing the place) as a representative of the new California republic. Big big changes needed. SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:42, June 24, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I admittedly wrote that proposal in a bit of a rush. I will take a look at how to make some changes for how she ends up in the California Republic. 

For her background, she worked for President Carter at the State Department starting in 1977. Previously, she'd been mentored at college by professor and anti-communist former diplomat Josef Korbel. She also served at Stanford University's program on arms control and served a Ford Foundation Fellowship on Soviet studies and international security. You're right, I will take your advice and expand on how her background would affect her reaction. 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yeah, doesn't make much sense for her to go to anarchist California republic. I sincerely thinks she won't make it alive unless it goes the only sort of way I could imagine: to Visalia and even with that I'm still not 100% convinced the king in place wouldn't do bad things to her as an intellectual.Good that you go expend her background. SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

In general this vastly underestimates the level of social breakdown in the Bay Area during the 1980s. The picture we've had so far has been one of total collapse. Even if Stanford was not attacked, there's no way that institutions like the town government would survive after the first year or so. And the university itself might persist as an organization so that it could rescue books and such, as you say, but it certainly is not going to carry on with classes and routine work, which is currently implied.

I think that Condi could stay and be part of the salvage, but head east fairly early on, together with many other Bay Area refugees. But then here's another big discrepancy. The northern part of the Central Valley, which we know would eventually become the California Republic, was not anything like a modern functioning state. Look over the page a little more. In 1989 it devolved most governing power to the counties (and many of the counties were barely getting by). In 1999 it dissolved completely, only to be re-established in 2006.

Maybe those could be the years that Condi was working as a teacher, maybe Stanford was able to find a spot in the Central Valley where it could stash books and other valuable items, and begin to operate a school of some kind. (To respond to points by Sigma earlier, just because the central government wasn't functioning, doesn't mean it was a total hellhole. It would be a lot of refugees in camps and settlements. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant... but certainly better than the Bay Area itself.) And then, I could see her as one of the leaders behind the movement to re-establish the Republic. I could imagine her holding the office of Chief Diplomat from the Republic's founding until now - probably the politics of the Republic are unstable and uncertain, but she could be a steadying force.

Benkarnell (talk) 17:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

New Jersey Skylands

This section is copied from the archived discussion at "Some Proposals I've been working on". - Benkarnell (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

New Jersey Skylands - the leafy northwestern region of New Jersey, which according to canon wasn't bombed, but otherwise is not mentioned. I've envisioned a modest survivor state based mostly around agriculture and trading hand-crafted items. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Your map seems correct according to official weather data and references used for this timeline. I'd however say that there would be a bigger refugee crisis considering the alarm that went on some time before the strikes, giving the chance for some to exit the cities of Philadelphia and Delwark. It's a bit too optimistic in that regard concerning the low level of refugees. It would be more chaotic in the beginning. Also explaining how they manage their currency and how they came to be in contact with other states in the region(according to ways that don't clash or contrast in tone with the canon). Also, how did they got zeppelins? How in the world did the east coast, with all the difficulties concerning any form of global intercontinental trade, would have in its possession zeppelins from the other side of the atlantic? I don't buy it. They are just starting to fabricate them for essex and southern england. Sorry. Also, could you explain the sociocultural factors that led to it being a "hotbed of american nolstalgia"? What led to it realistically being this way? You should also add "region" after talking about Pennsylvania because there's no pennsylvanian state as of right now and would reflect better the situation you seems to talk about in your article, encompassing the various survivor states. It might surely be just me, but I think naming a history chapter after a bon jovi song is a bit out of touch and contrasting the general style of the timeline, not looking really "encyclopedia-style". Almost last point, how is their political system? How it is structered and what posts and roles that goes with them are? For instance, what is the power and role of this "governor lieutenant governor"? Is it like a parliamentary system with an elected head of state and a prime minister? It must look like it came right of the local people discussions and minds given the historical context. Last point, is it part of the United Communities? If canonize its role and history must be present in its neighbours pages and the UC page or any other article where it could have contributed (while respecting the editorial guidelines of asking proper permission or adopt them).  SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:55, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

I've added a crisis early on in the post-Doomsday history that shows the tensions from what you described and ultimately serves as the impetus for the region's consolidation into a unified survivor state. The American nostalgia part I ascribe due to a combination of the region's OTL political conservatism as well as residents feeling isolated from the rest of the continent and longing for the good old days when they were part of a continent-spanning nation with mass media and transportation.

I've added a section fleshing out the details of the state government. Also, I think you misread the infobox: Governor and Lieutenant Governor are two separate positions. The infobox just places them one above the other. I left them blank for now because I haven't yet figured out who to put in those positions as of 2020 just yet. 

For the part about the zeppelins, I seem to have made an error. I read about the zeppelins in some of the other articles and erroneously made the assumption that they were in operation in North America as well. Is it possible that they could have been created by Delmarva or another large survivor state in the region by 2020? If not, I can just remove that part. 

I agree that the New Jersey Skylands could join the United Communities. After looking at your suggestion on this and reading the UC's page, I came up with an idea: I noticed that the UC has apparently been engaged in various fallout cleanup projects; perhaps instead of zeppelins being a means of trade between the New Jersey Skylands and South Jersey, the Skylands could instead partner with the UC to organize a cleanup operation to clear fallout at some of the thinnest parts of the fallout line separating North and South Jersey. They could perhaps target the thinnest points in this line of fallout to open up some corridors for trade between Skylands-controlled North Jersey and Delmarva-controlled South Jersey by 2020. I think this could be a good and much more sensible and canon-based alternative to my original zeppelin idea. 

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Love how you added a justification for the term "skylands" and the geography of this place. Makes sense now and help give the imagination a better picture of the land. I'd squish down a little the regiment picture as it is a bit too wide (use px to help). This is definitely my favourite of your articles, not only is it well written, it is coherent, well showed and makes total sense (levels of "why has no one thought about this before"). 92% great. Only thing is to add the current lieutenant-governor and, unless you plan an article to list them all, remove the url in the infobox. Beside that, 100% ready to be a canon article. I still think naming a section after a Bon Jovi or a Bruce Springsteen song is a bit out of style concerning the usual style of DD.

Zeppelins: No, just no. There's just no way it would work with the public mind. It would be seen as farfetched. Small STOL/seaplanes only could make air travel possible depending on the locations, all the oil needed raises some doubts however. Sorry.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

I have a few concerns:

• Bethlehem was destroyed, presumably by a R-36 warhead (750 kiloton). This would have raked the area with fallout.
• It is canon that northern New Jersey is essentially uninhabitable from fallout due to strikes on Philadelphia and New York
• The state seems far too developed, given its isolated location, and the fact that the survivor population would likely be in the thousands or tens of thousands
• The nation I have completed, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna (1983: Doomsday) only joined the UC in 2018 due to its isolation. New Jersey would likely be worse off. It was heavily debated between myself and several moderators over the timeline, but it was agreed that after 2015 would be realistic.
• Due to fallout patterns, refugees from Scranton and Wilkes Barre would be forced west and south, in Susquehanna it is stated that refugees end up in Berwick and Hazleton
• Given the location of the country, it is unlikely for there to be significant amounts of tourism. Radiation from the New York metro and southern NJ would be a significant issue, it is an isolated nation, and the economy would be focused around people surviving. They don't have the resources to rebuild major cities.
• Minor nitpick: Phillipsburg, PA is in Centre County

Daeseunglim (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello! So for the NJ Skylands, it's canon that northEASTERN NJ was irradiated. The existing fallout map from the canon article on New Jersey as a whole shows the northwest as not hit. The wind patterns in the region typically go from west to east, so the fallout from Hudson and Essex Counties and the rest of northeastern NJ would be blowing towards the ruins of NYC, Connecticut, the Long Island Sound, and the Atlantic Ocean, and the closest civilization in its path would probably be the Outer Lands to the east.

I do mention difficulties in survival and a significant drop in population in the 1980's, which I have now clarified as being as a result of fallout from Bethlehem, though I hadn't put an exact number on the long-term survivors.

I don't think of this place as overly "developed." It's mostly wilderness and farm towns that already existed pre-Doomsday. The society there would indeed be very agrarian. The travelers I envisioned starting to slowly arrive by 2020 would be a small trickle of people, not a massive horde. I'm picturing that at this point, recreational travel is only just barely starting to re-emerge, and is not yet a major industry.

For the UC part, I can change the date of joining to closer to present day.

Also, the Phillipsburg I'm talking about in the article is Phillipsburg, New Jersey in Warren County.

Best regards,

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Have I adequately addressed the concerns expressed above? I'll wait on that article for a bit longer, but I think I can now canonize the rest.

Sincere thanks everyone! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

2015 is still too soon for joining the UC. It would join after Susquehanna and Reading did, both were in contact with UC members for almost a decade before joining. Susquehanna only joined in 2015 and was an observer since 2013. I would say observer status in 2015 and membership in 2018 or 2019 is more realistic.

Before you canonize, please define the population, flesh out the government and military more, and update the history and international relations to take into account Reading, Pennsylvania (1983: Doomsday), Lehigh (1983: Doomsday), and Commonwealth of Susquehanna (1983: Doomsday); as their information will definitely impact your country.

It is canon that both Susquehanna and Reading are still dealing with raiders to the east, so communication between NJHL and these nations would be difficult. I do believe it would join, but it will take time due to distance and raiders causing problems. Reading and Susquehanna are working to clear the gangs out of the area, but they are still problematic.

I think you need to address the population, also, just to note, Susquehanna and Reading claim the entire eastern half of Pennsylvania to the Delaware River. They do not control the whole area, however if NJ claims territory in what these countries considers to be part of their integral territory it may cause conflict.

Your state, given the location, economy, and demographic of the area, would likely be weaker than Susquehanna. Additionally, Reading, Lehigh, and Susquehanna are in a military and political alliance. However, provided relations are cordial, I think it is likely that it would be integrated into the organization and probably be a trade partner with the organization. (Confederation of Pennsylvanian States (1983: Doomsday)) I could also see these countries (along with possibly the NY Republic and State College) working together to clean up the coast of NJ and build a port city if they can find an area with low or no radiation.

Overall, I would say it is 75% of the way there, and I do like the idea of a Northern NJ survivor state.

Daeseunglim (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with earlier comments that it's too developed. I think that in the fun of creating new localized "countries," a lot of us forget to ask just what it would be like to live through a total social collapse. In the years following a nuclear attack, most communities would not be meeting in summits or setting up 3-branched governments. They would be struggling to just live through the next few days, and they would be waiting for some kind of word from the national and state authorities. They would continue to think of themselves as American for a very long time afterward, and would not just dive into creating a nation-state probably until a new generation was running things, and in the meantime society will have totally transformed. American survivor states need to be simple, focused on the basic necessities. Not very concerned with reduplicating American civic institutions until long after other basic needs are met.

Benkarnell (talk) 17:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Plus, we have small strikes in the eastern areas of a few of those counties. Easternmost Huntington County, roughly Morristown and Somerville in Morris and Somerset counties, and somewhere around Vernon in easternmost Sussex county.

I would say that southern Warren and western Hunterdon counties are too close to "bad" areas as well.

Northern Warren and Western Sussex counties, maybe some north/west bits work. Beyond that, too much.

As the others have noted, scale down beyond that.

Lordganon (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Birdman Films

Another older proposal that was never posted. Post-DD Tommy Wiseau? It turns out that he did live in Louisiana during the early 80s. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he lived in Chalmette, too close to a target in New Orleans to be a likely survivor. But the page is delightful enough that I think it deserves a discussion - it's exactly what Wiseau would be doing in this world if he did live. Maybe there's a way. Benkarnell (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Has anyone had a chance to look into this? Is there any realistic way to save Tommy? Benkarnell (talk) 15:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Hearing nothing, I'm actually comfortable saying that he survived in refugee camps and lived long enough to thrive in the B movie environment of 2010s North America. But he probably isn't well. Cancer is likely and he may not have survived to the end of the decade. So I'll try to add these details in the next few days if I have time. Benkarnell (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I've added that he lived in a displaced-persons camp. That's plausible enough, I think: nobody thinks missile fatalities would be 100%. And I added that he died early in 2019, just after this article was first written. I'm personally comfortable with graduating the article now, but would like others to comment on whether it's plausible. Benkarnell (talk) 17:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Article itself is good, I think, but.... main problem I have is Wiseau himself. Man seems to be one tangled mess of lies and part truths as to his background. What'd you find that indicated he was there in the 1980s? While finding a general path of where he was located seems doable, datewise, not so much. Chalmette is also in 1983 where a major aluminum plant was, and more or less next to the big refineries.... more where I'd aim the missile, myself. I agree that it's not 100% deaths, but... Lordganon (talk) 19:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I was going to post a source, but it's reported very widely; both tommy and others have said that he was in Chalmette during that time - so just search "tommy wiseau chalmette" and you'll see there's ample evidence. Just what he was doing there is of course very mysterious. And if there's one strategic center to Louisiana, surely it's the container port, no? And the main part of that is even further up the river, putting it a few more miles from Chalmette. But I understand the other side too: it's the general rule to have people in major metro areas be dead. Benkarnell (talk) 21:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Tried that before and after, and all it says is that he was there at some point. Note, too, that we probably can't take the man's word for anything beyond a certain point anyway. I can find that he was in SF in 1984ish, when he purchased a property that had just been finished being built in the Mission District of central SF. Far as his money for this, it does seem to have been earned sometime after his time in Louisiana.

NO's port is pretty spread out, though, and only accessible by the river. Block that, and.... useless either way. Meh. All I know is that if those refineries have to shut down for a storm, gas goes up a lot, lol.

Like the overall idea, just wish that someone less.... Nuts? was the atl founder.

Lordganon (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I mean, the fun of this proposal is in making this ridiculous man into one of the characters in the TL. And while I think it's lots of fun, I'm not really married to this proposal - I think that it's possible but maybe not super likely given what happened in Louisiana. Benkarnell (talk) 17:50, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Given the uncertainty of the information and the fun of having this article, I'm willing to do a little handwaving and posit that Tommy survived in Louisiana as a displaced person for a period. False Dmitri (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm... Really, given that real estate purchase in SF, I have to think he's on that coast, myself. Still can't find anything to say he was in Louisiana in 1983, either.

Honestly, move the company to Napa and that solves most of that problem, "nut" aside.

Lordganon (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I read on wikipedia that he was in Louisiana in the 80's... but I honestly don't know if it said when he moved to california, so, I'm sorry if I caused some problems. Kelothan (talk) 17:14, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

There aren't any problems, we're just trying to make sure that this is realistic.

I'm completely comfortable allowing this. The evidence is loose and murky enough that the story as written can be justified. I'm for graduating both this and the merged Star Wars article. False Dmitri (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Star Wars and Star Wars Franchise

Two dueling proposals, one by Kelothan and one by Ficboy. Kelothan's fits together with his Tommy Wiseau proposal. Neither is very long and detailed, and actually I think they could be harmonized (except for the Tommy part, if it turns out he's dead, as seems likely). Global copyright law being unenforceable, probably Star Wars is being produced and added to by anyone who has access to the material. Benkarnell (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

That was the idea. Kelothan (talk) 17:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Birdman Films is still up in the air. If it gets accepted, I'd recommend merging these two pages (probably making Star Wars the one to keep, just since it has the shorter title). We can use Ficboy's infobox and Kelothan's list of adaptations. False Dmitri (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Virginian-Delmarvan War

Since Delmarva and Virginia are so aggressive towards each other I wouldn't be surprised if a war broke out. This article explores the possiblility of such a war. If plausible, I think this should graduate. --Firestarthegodcat (talk) 10:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

There is no background or basis for this. Such things don't come out of nowhere.

The two states are in fact not in conflict - this makes no sense and isn't plausible.

Lordganon (talk) 02:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Kind of says in the opening paragraphs of Delmarva. Any state occupying land that important that doesn't claim to be a successor is going to be seen as an occupier to a state that sees itself as a continuation of US and CSA ideals. Instead, the question becomes, "why did people wait until 2021 to fight this? Who is willing to fight and die for this?" A war that lasts only a few days is just not going to happen in this TL. We can either infer that this is an animosity stretching back years/decades or it's something new. The former gives you more room to expand while the latter... well, let's just say the war would not be over.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 08:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Except that Virginia is very clear about having nothing to do with the former US government besides being a formal successor state, and that it is gone and has no authority over them.

For that matter, Virginian ideals have moderated since the 2000s, such as looser control of government over media, and less influence by the military on the government.

The establishment of their eastern port in 2008ish would have caused some sort of ruffled feathers with Delmarva, but beyond that, Delmarva won't care much about them.

Now, I'm aware there is some of the more nationalist elements of the VA government that demand all of Virginia. That being said, these are also the same people freaked out about the new USA the most. Even for them, starting trouble over territory that wants no part of them is going a bit far.

Virginia going after some sort of pro-union state, would be one thing. But messing with a bare-neighbor that has much of the same anti-union ideals just doesn't make sense.

Lordganon (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I've fixed the issues with the article, but nowhere in Delmarva does it state that Delmarva opposes reunification. Please review my proposal. Thanks! Firestarthegodcat (talk) 10:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

It's been noted before that they are, at this point. That they refuse to declare themselves a successor, declared independence so early on, and the international commitments, means they have no use for it. Lordganon (talk) 00:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

North Carolina

The article is canon but the vast majority of the information is new so I'm going to put this under proposals. Most of the article discusses what happens outside of Blue Ridge and the Outer Banks after the bombs fall and goes into detail why the canon states are exceptions. Considering the values and attitudes most people held in the US south in the 1980s, I see most survivor communities being controlled by the police, Protestant churches, or radical groups. NC was home to a lot of racial violence at the time and a global thermonuclear war certainly won't make that any better.

The cop states peter out in the 2000s and I can confidently say I've written up to 2010, which is where BrianD left off. Around that time is the American spring, which is where a lot of states are going to be interested in joining Blue Ridge. Though its control over the Piedmont region would be loose, I see absolutely no reason why Blue Ridge wouldn't share a border with the Inner Banks. By 2021, Blue Ridge should hold a vast majority of North Carolina judging from the state of just about every article I've seen. If Virginia can be mostly unified, NC should be a peer, if not a formidable opponent. 10 years in DD was a third of the entire timeline when I joined the wiki, which is absolutely insane. As seen in so many articles, a lot can happen in that time.

Indeed, a lot happened in our own timeline and I think a reflection of that in Blue Ridge could take place. Franklin Graham could be an interesting leader of Blue Ridge and lead it on a very scary ideological/religious path. This could have taken place years ago. There was a referendum for unification with East Tennessee in 2010 as well and Blue Ridge has good relations with SC. Bottom line: I see Blue Ridge focusing on taking the rest of NC, maybe trying to establish one Carolinian gov't with the folks in SC, or trying to establish dominance in Appalachia. Need some advice.

Also tell me if something doesn't work, etc etc. I've talked with most of you guys on discord but this is still the official place.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 09:02, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Well as a colleague on 1983: Doomsday i would advise you to expand Blue Ridge and extend his borders to incorporate all former North Carolina, with NC restored as a nation-state it can very well counter balance Virginia in terms of power and resources, and it will still be the 2nd most powerful state in the Deep South apart from Virginia and Piedmont aka South Carolina, i do see that Blue Ridge can very well use his position for creating a counter alliance to the Dixie alliance, one formed around much more democratic ideas, less racist and much more less militaristic, i can even see an alliance between NC, Florida, Neonotia, Kentucky and the remnants of Tennessee, with the support of the South American countries, Mexico, US and ANZC in stabilizing the south.

And i think you should speak about the American Springs and how the liberal policies of Blue Ridge / NC can led to protests and revolts in Kentucky to end the alliance with Virginia, i imagine spearheaded by Pete and in Virginia for the end of the militarization of the society and the pressure that the armed forces had on it and the return to a full democratic government, and i think the possible Virginian revolts would caught the attention of SA, ANZC, Venice and Genoa both for the strange opposition that Virginia had to the Venetian occupation of Istria since 1980s, CA, Alpine and others like Mexico and US and for me it can end in two ways;

• A more brutal and military repression that will proclaim martial law or a military junta, possibly leading to a war against Norht Carolina and the separation of the two Virginias.

• The revolutionaries would succeed with some liberal and democratic elements of the Armed Forces and Virginia will become a new path towards democracy and the end of the militarization of the society.

Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

The difference is, Virginia has an entire near-intact state, and a fair portion of an actual division to start with. Plus, western (East) Virginia didn't really get hit much, and the surviving cities joined up pretty easily. That's alot of easy territory, come down to it, for expanding. Since then, it's slowed to a crawl, comparatively, as those conditions end.

Western NC is/was much the same, barring having more raiders. But the central areas, as you noted somewhat, has pretty much the opposite happen. I can't see the (rough) square of Raleigh/Charlotte/Greensboro/Fayetteville being all that pleasant to move through, and trying to go around it being problematic if going straight east.

Such mapping and exploration work won't be easy. And, Inner Banks really isn't all that strong either, along with being somewhat hemmed in. Wouldn't even try going there that fast at this point, myself.

Not saying that they wouldn't work on that, mind. Just that it'd be more of an expense than they'd probably like to quickly bear. The noted concept of expanding through there for land, tech, machines, etc. works, as does the road, but slower.

Better idea would probably be to hook up (better) with the Virginian network somewhere north of Greensboro, at least for the present. That'd allow the use of Virginian/Delmarvan ports, which would be helpful.

Mal, Virginia has been going in the direction of less military control since the late 2000s.

Like otl, many strange additions (at least in context) to policy (such as the Istria line) boil down to one person not liking something about it, for whatever reason. Could be as simple as someone of Slovene or Croatian descent being higher up in government, or a politician not having enjoyed a vacation in Venice at some point. The sort of thing that even in modern otl ends up getting attached to bills as nonsense "riders," along with things such as making it against the law to chew gum on a Tuesday, or the like. Venetian control over that area has much more to do with Alpine interests, anyway.

Lordganon (talk) 13:30, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, Alex. Also, LG, it's been a minute, glad to see you back! At a certain point I'm just keeping Blue Ridge around for the cool name. There is going to be a massive identity crisis going on in NC between "liberal democracy" and "overtly racist police junta" the state is going to have to sort out. If there's a state to combat the Dixie Alliance, it's Carolina.

These regions where nothing happened out west, I feel, are implausible, maybe even moreso in VA since it's closer to major population centers. People are going to migrate en masse in a panic after the bombs. I went into detail what that looked like in the mountains. Nowhere in December 1983 is safe, just some parts are more radioactive. Any safe region like Blue Ridge or western VA will be talked about and people from all over the region would flock to this supposedly bountiful mountain region. Liberal paradise or not, many in Blue Ridge would not be pleased with so many outsiders coming in, especially if they are of a certain demographic. It don't exactly take long for western liberalism to become a cartoon of itself, as seen in OTL.

The migration period and afterwards saw many states claim to be continuations of Rome when, in actually, they were very far from it politically. We'd see that in the US. One man's cop junta is another man's local contingency government keeping chaotic elements of society at bay. Though many of the worst states in NC claimed to be continuations of local governments, it's this core idea that would make the people living there more keen on willingly joining the continuation of the state government once the cop juntas end.

Blue Ridge is ultimately going to expand where the people are, not where the people were. The survivors of, say, Greensboro (and Winston-salem, Burlington, etc) are more likely to spread south to Asheboro. Not much north of Greensboro aside from Danville and I don't think even a nuclear war would make me voluntarily go to Danville. In all seriousness, Boone, Henderson, and Hillsboro are in much better positions to trade with Virginia. Folks in the Charlotte metro would go north to Kannapolis, which is in a position to trade with Piedmont in SC. Blue Ridge would be expanding east and then south into the triangular parts.

Lot of work? Yes, but I think in the time since Blue Ridge was last updated it would have been done. All signs seem to point to this being an inevitability. All it really takes is most people recognizing Blue Ridge's claim to the east for the maps to just be redrawn, regardless of how fickle that control may be. On the topic of maps, I don't really see a reason for the region being difficult to map per se, unless for the purposes of determining where the radiation zones are.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 17:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

<Shrugs> intent was always to never really leave, but things got too stressful on one hand, the list of "to-do" got hindered by a few events, and other projects/"shiny" syndrome got involved. Honestly, because some people can't leave well enough alone or consider their own biases, I'm more active right now than intended, and am trying to get several things done at once. Aggravating. Plus, the watchlist hasn't been working well/at all, considering some of the surprises I'm finding.

Aye, not really "safe," but much easier to deal with. Difference between a "five" and a "ten" in difficulty, so to speak.

Maps? You've got to note where is radiated, where other events such as chemical spills (or such) happened, what bridges are intact, condition of roads, where "bad" people are, etc.

Danville is more or less where I mean - going by maps or the rail network, some sort of redirect around the urban centers and connecting through there to ports would work better, at least for now, and be more secure.

I'm not saying the rest isn't happening, or going to happen - just that there are better options, for the moment.

Lordganon (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Well, I stand behind how recent events were handled, I'm sure now that we have another pair of eyes on the wiki we'll be a force to be reckoned with.

My map of irradiated and abandoned places is on the NC main article, but I can post it here for you. I really haven't seen much need for maps depicting the conditions of roads and bridges, largely because I find what is and is not a viable route to be fairly self-explanatory. The regions intersected by interstates are where most people live, those routes will almost always be maintained in some way. Shortcuts and side roads? That's kudzu now. A map with this infrastructure would be fun and I would love to have a big, fleshed out map like that, but right now that's a distraction. Shiny syndrome and all.

Trains to Danville mostly go through places like Greensboro, i.e. right through a radiation zone. Pre-war railways? Hard no, especially in the southern US. I am very skeptical that anyone east of Charlotte would be able to get a usable chunk of rail and/or a train of any kind working until well after the old tracks are unusable. Danville would be important, sure, but not this terminus for NC trade. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 04:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Some New Proposals

Hey everyone, so I'm gradually working on various proposals, but I've been very busy lately. However, here are three ideas that I think I'm ready to bring before the 1983DD community.

Juliana II: She's already been canon for years, but I noticed that she didn't have an individual wiki page. I figured I'd write out a more detailed bio for her than the details that were already scattered across a few other pages.

United States Baseball League: Kind of a spinoff from my Joe Torre article that was canonized a while back. This page basically expands on and gives details about the reborn USA's main baseball league. I'm particularly proud of the custom team logos I made.

Embassy of the United States, Canberra: This one isn't too major, all things considered. It's just my ideas about what could've happened to the US Embassy in Australia during and after Doomsday.

Let me know if you guys think these are ready. Thanks! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I have only one complain about Juliana, you see, we found out that she did never moved to Mexico, she stayed in New York with his family, so she is probaly dead. But Prince Willaim-Alexander did survive Doomsday, as he was in Llantwit Major, Wales by early Septhember. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem-Alexander_der_Nederlanden#Jeugd Alex Mal3ssio97 22:43, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

it is not impossible just unlikely that julina and her father got out of new york. Also Juliana being queen of the netherlands has been cannon for years so I say the jullina arictle should be cannoized - Goldwind1

That's certain that she was in New York and not Mexico? That's really unfortunate, it was pretty integral to that part of the story. False Dmitri (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Ben i looked up on every biography of her mother and that of Juliana, and in none of them is stated that she escaped to Mexico as the family moved to New York in 1975 and stayed there until 1984. I can look up if i can get any clue abot his father, but if not Prince William Alexander is our best bet, but not the only one. Alex Mal3ssio97 22:15, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Please let us know what your findings are. It'd be a shame to have to rewrite the parts of existing canon that feature Juliana, but if we have to then I suppose Willem-Alexander could be substituted in her place. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 02:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

But Willem-Alexander is the OTL monarch, he's less fun and of course a whole lot less cute. This really is a shame. It makes me wonder where Villa Cruoninga got the idea to put her in Mexico - whether he just made it up, or what. Are there any other obscure relatives who might have been in the Americas and not dead? Because frankly it would be more interesting to promote somebody obscure, over the OTL monarch (who being in the UK is definitely also a potential casualty). False Dmitri (talk) 15:03, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

it is not impossible just unlikely that julina and her father got out of new york before the bomb hit and maybe a long jounrey to mexico. - Goldwind1

Prince Willem-Alexander was in rural Wales when the bobms hit, so he could have higher possibilites of survive rather then Juliana. Alex Mal3ssio97 22:36, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

In defense of what FalseDmitri and Goldwind are saying, the timeline does already have some real life people who made narrow escapes from nuked cities, which really could've gone either way but were not impossible. Do we know which part of NYC Juliana and her father lived in (somewhere close to either JFK or LaGuardia airports perhaps)? Or if they could've got to the UN or Dutch consulate for an emergency evacuation via helicopter? If they lived somewhere like the Upper West or East Side, perhaps they could've escaped via private boat? Just throwing some ideas out there. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

So, i saw some wikipedia articles and i know that her mother (Princess Christina) worked in a school of Harlem, in New York. As you can see there is roughly 5,2 miles between Harlem and the Dutch consulate in New York. I would come up with a compromise, we make the hole family live, they would reach the Antilles in the 90s or in the late 80s, after all the know that those islands are Dutch possediments, but they found that Prince Willem was already make King of the Netherlands, the king would welcome her into the Royal family once more, giving back her titles but not giving her the possibility to become monarch, nor to his child. (Becuase she renounced to them in 1975) Alex Mal3ssio97 23:19, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

That's not much of a compromise, if anything it combines the worst of both ideas (it has a boring OTL monarch and an unlikely escape). ... But now I'm doubting this version of events. By the time Juliana was born, I'm seeing a source saying that her parents had moved back to the Netherlands, to Utrecht. Since they're minor members of the family, I can't find any info on their comings and goings in subsequent years. False Dmitri (talk) 18:13, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'll see if I can find any more info about Juliana and her mom in 1983 as well. But Alex has a point, that it looks like no matter whether Juliana could've survived or not, Willem-Alexander is a plausible survivor either way due to his then-location in rural Wales.

For now, I'm putting together a tentative proposal page for Willem-Alexander. I'll wait to see what the consensus of the community is here before I change anything in the current canon, though. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Quite frankly, we're probably never going to know exactly where she was at DD. By some accounts, they may have "lived" in NYC at the time, or maybe Utrecht, but they seem to have travelled a lot too.

I figure, best just to leave it at a vague survival and discovery for her unless we can find out for sure otherwise.

Now, Willem.... You have a problem there. Yes, he was at a school in Wales at DD. The issue is, that it is not only not as rural as you think, but the location itself. It's pretty close to Cardiff, for starters. But beyond that, it is located very close to an airbase that was in extensive use in 1983.

Now, we don't have a list of targeted bases in the UK - just a "bases hit by nukes" bit. But either way, looks bad for him surviving.

Lordganon (talk) 07:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Not to mention, the deaths included far, far more beyond just the bomb blasts themselves. Accounting for Willem's death would not be a problem at all. I'm also comfortable counting Juliana as a refugee who happened to survive - as long as we also make an account that uses the best possible information. False Dmitri (talk) 14:19, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Well guys, all the evidence suggest that Prince Willem is going to survive pretty well and be able to get to the Netherlands Antilles, and besides about Juliana if she survived then her family too would had survived, so i think her mother should get the throne, or one of her siblings. And i read in all the available sources that his mother lived in New York until 1984 and worked in a private school at Harlem. Alex Mal3ssio97 01:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to continue to wait for a group consensus to form on the Dutch monarchy issue. Since there don't seem to be any objections to my other two proposals, I'm going to canonize the US Embassy article and US Baseball League article if that's alright. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 02:05, 11 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Alex, I actually disagree with both of those points. If Juliana did survive in a refugee situation, it's entirely possible for her to have lost her family. There would be epidemics, malnutrition, random violence in those situations - the immediate post-DD world had no shortage of ways to die. Those things apply equally to Willem, living as he did in the UK, even if his city was not a target. I'm with LG on this, I think that the available information is not clear enough to justify changing such long-established canon.

Gryffin, could you wait on the other 2 please? One week seems short, even for uncontroversial proposals like those. False Dmitri (talk) 04:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

No problem, Dmitri, will do! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:36, 12 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

One more week, nobody's said anything. I read them both and like them, maybe OK to graduate now. False Dmitri (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Dmitri, will do so now. I will wait a bit more on the Dutch monarch issue, but canonize the other two. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Guam

Hey everybody! Its been a while since I did any 1983DD work, but recent news stories inspired me to write something up on Guam. Right now I am just trying to collect what is canon, so if I missed anything, please let me know. Also please have patience with me as I am out of practice working in the timeline and I may have forgotten some of the rules and such. Mitro (talk) 22:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Well this is delightful. Right now a lot of what we're doing is cleanup. The timeline's explosive growth left a lot of debris around, and its crash after 2014 or so meant there was nobody to do the cleaning. So you'll see probably more Reviews and Adoptions than there typically used to be, and not as many all-new Proposals. Well, also there's not as much empty space on the map as there used to be. False Dmitri (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Montserrat

Hey guys, its me, Fitzy. You might know me from the discord or on Domesday map game. Recently, I have taken an interest in writing up a proposal for Monsterrat. The tiny territory has no mentions despite having of of the most significant events in the late 20th century; the Soufrière Hills eruption that rendered 2/3 of the island uninhabitable. That happened in the 1990s, however. Monsterrat is a small island, it pretty much depends on the Uk for everything. Right- now I have a very wip page on my sandbox: https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User:Fitzy374748/Sandbox Its pretty barebones atm. If you have any suggestions, then please tell me on my talk page. Fitzy374748 (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I spoken with some germans yesterday and some even members of this wiki, they said that Germans as well us Italians, French and other nations that are a republic for more then 50 years have said to me that Germans don't miss the monarchy and only neo nazi or kaiserboo have this fetish towards the monarchy, so yeah i agree with Sigma that if the original writers wanted Prussia so much then a "Prussian State" or a "Prussian Republic" would had work so much better in my opinion, but here we are.

Thou i still think that if you want a monarchy then it has to be democratic as possible, on the level of the United Kingdom, no way semi authoritarian monarchies are gonna work in 21th century Europe were all of the monarchies are constitutional and parliamentaries one. Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "fetish" is rather insulting, fyi.

Much as I think the poll is bogus (as noted why, plus I suspect, and exit polling tends to support this in other fields, that "social pressure" and other factors mean the number is actually higher, especially if you use specifics) you quoted it so we'll use it. A third of Germans are in favor, according to it. At most, and that is in the last election, your "neo-nazis" (who don't support a crown, fyi), just a bit over 10% of the vote. That's the most they've gotten in decades, since long before DD. Now, I'm aware that a certain portion of the "tent" conservative parties are going to agree with them on some level, but not a majority or even a plurality of their members will be. So your statement isn't true.

That current upswing is more about the EU than anything, as a note. You see a similar increase on the more communist side of things.

You see about the same patterns in place in the other western republics. There is a reason why, in France for example, they legally care about who the claimants are, and even today, two of the three general political patterns there are "Bonapartism" and "Bourbonism," even if the overall monarchial ties are shorted out right now. As an example, Du Gualle is someone from the more Bonaparte school, with regards to policies and attitudes.

But that is today - we're talking about 1983-1990. Different picture. You know your older relatives, the ones that want a return to the "good old days"? Ignoring a lot of the more bigoted parts (not saying there is with yours, but you get the idea) it is about the world as they knew it when they were young, and/or the stories they were told growing up. A lot of the politicians, and the like, of the era are those who were born in the WWII era, or just before. Meaning that their parents were that generation for WWI. So that "drawback" to the past here would have been for those glory days, in their minds. Ahh, Nostalgia.

Now, republicanism in Germany has never been a strong thing by itself. Kind of a this is what works thing, if that makes sense. There's a reason why there was at least two (Hanover and Bavaria) moves for crowns/independence after WWII, which failed largely due to US pressures. And the Easterners have been under dictators since the 1930s by this point - they'll want a strong leadership of some sort, which the westerners won't go for on near the same level. About the only in between there is a crown, so... Add to that the "foreign" garrisons of West Berlin.... Presto! If nothing else, call it the king an independent arbiter.

Prussia is mostly a constitutional state, but, as noted, you've got to have a stronger monarchy than others to satisfy things, especially given the trying times of DD.

Western Monarchies, btw, have a lot more power than you think. It's just that by practice and culture, they don't do it.

Lordganon (talk) 14:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Eh, it's more than fair to call the giant list of restored monarchies in this TL a "fetish". I'm guilty of it too and regret doing it for Hawaii (quite possibly the earliest example of the trope in this timeline). Any individual case might be justified, but it's happened in well over a dozen countries. I suspect this has much to do with the typical alternate history enthusiast's interest in dynasties and genealogy, very little to do with a real assessment of what people in the different communities would look for if society ever collapsed. And Prussia's one of the sillier ones, in my opinion. Like Alex says, it's a pretty obvious case of Kaiserreich fanboyism with a story written around it.

Now it happens that said story has developed into something that's not that bad. It's been through an extensive Review process and fitted pretty well into the overall setting, with enough there to justify some of the more outlandish turns of events. I wouldn't support a total rewrite of the canon unless there was a very strong desire to do it by everyone involved. (And honestly I'd be willing to do the same for Hawaii, I'm sort of annoyed to be part of the problem like that.) False Dmitri (talk) 02:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

<Freely admits to being guilty of that "trope" by virtue of being a monarchist>

Funny enough, with the loss of the capital/Oahu and the larger bases, the "haole" population of Hawaii would have taken as massive hit. Add that the "locals" are far more inclined to be in favor of independence... bet that one makes sense more than almost anywhere else globally, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's what I had thought too, but some reading since then shows that Maui and the Big Island's ethnic demographics aren't all that different from the state as a whole. But again my point is that any one restoration might be understandable. It becomes almost humorously absurd when the same thing happens absolutely everywhere. I count twelve thirteen states in Europe alone that are governed by royals today that were not in 1982. Add four or five more in Central Asia. Individually any might have a reason. In the aggregate it's ridiculous. Like everyone looked out the window and said, "On my! Nuclear war! We'd better call up the nearest heir to a deposed dynasty." I am strongly in favor of reducing this crowd of restaurados and I'm more than willing to start with the page that I created. Prussia too - if there's a strong community will to do it, and a credible and well-written alternative. False Dmitri (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

<waggles hands> Depends on how you count the "ethnicity" and who is doing the counting - varies from a hundred thousand "pure" natives, to more than 500k that can claim descent (and often do) in the islands alone. One of those things, you know? As for the idea... restorations, maybe, but we don't see enough states that have people declare themselves such and control areas, so it probably somewhat evens out. Lordganon (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"DD, tell more of your plans."

Apologies for not seeing all this until April, real life stuff and procrastination got in the way. What I want to add to the Prussia page is some extra history and nuance to waht I see as a rather contrived even:, mostly on how the monarchy came to be, Prussia's history post-2011, some additions to its culture, economy, and political structure.

I wrote a pretty good summmation of what I want on the AH Wikia Discord, so I'll just repost it here.

Obligatory wall of text warning. Also, some stuff is from my personal headcanon, so disregard anything about surviving cities and the like. About 90% of it is what I actually want.

The former DDR is dominated by Prussia, which got off lucky thanks to the Soviet first strike crippling much of NATO's short-range ability to respond, sparing a handful of cities in the north (most major Berzik capitals north of the Elbe river, the south got screwed over thanks to population density and its industrial areas). Honecker and much of the higher-level officials were found dead from suicide, imprisoned or were outright lynched in some cases. As for the NATO and WP forces stationed in the city, cooler heads prevailed as they set about stabilising Berlin, bringing both sides of the capital and some of the surrounding cities (Postdam, Bernau) into a loose military government. Sounds contrived, I know, but I had to justify why the DDR and Soviet troops just didn't massacre their NATO counterparts.

Much of the northern DDR is reclaimed in the ensuing months and years, clearing out much of the de-facto Stasi and Volksarmee warlords that controlled the surviving northern towns and cities. After almost a decade (1991-92-ish), the Interim Administration for a United Germany is replaced with a revived Prussian state (mostly after they find out that much of the old East and West is unsalvageable for the time being), led by a surviving Hohenzollern (it can be Christian-Sigismund, but I like to think that Louis Ferdinand was in Berlin at the time of DD). Much of the already established lore for Prussia (war with Poland, the Treaty of Wolfsburg) takes place, but I felt like the backstory needed some polishing and nuance.

Modern Prussia is stuck somewhere between a semi-absolute monarchy (effectively a replacement for the General Secretary - though the King rarely exercises his power), a military dictatorship (the military largely stays out of politics as well) and a mildly corrupt - if functioning - democracy (the 'Socialist Royalists' are a pretty weird idea, if I'm honest. If anything, a market-friendly CDU-type would be in charge, thanks to the DDR's high degree of social conservatism and Prussia's need to distance itself from any form of socialism). Think Thailand, mixed with the Weimar Republic and the German Empire under Frederich III.

The Prussians idolize many of the anti-fascist and communist resistance members (the White Rose movement, July 20 Plotters, the Freikorps and the hundreds of dissidents who were targeted by the Stasi by the DDR) from German history, while also standing in firm opposition to the 'Americanised' democracy of the old West, claiming to be the heirs to the Weimar Republic, the Frankfurt Parliament and the Kaiserreich. Any fascist/natsoc and communist parties are banned, while those that associate with the movements are put under a great amount of social pressure and surveillance (ironic, I know, but the Prussians had to work with what they had...).

Regular street battles between the police, neo-Nazis, a revived Antifaschistische Aktion/Red Army Faction/Kampfgruppen LARPers are a regular feature in Berlin. Prussia is one of Europe's major industrial powers, having recovered what they could from the nuked cities (Halle Neustadt has taken over much of the old nuked, neighbouring city) built much of their heavy industry from scratch and an unlikely source of consumer electronics, thanks to the survival of factories in Strassfurt, Berlin and Teltow. Its relations with the southern states of Saxony and Weimar are cordial, thanks to the surviving universities in the latter and surviving industry (even if Karl Marx Stadt is still outwardly socialist - think of Saxony as the Belarus to Prussia's Russia) in the former.

I'm running with the theory that most regimes tend to use the state systems that came before them. Like how Russia merely replaced the Tsar with an all powerful General-Secretary, only to be replaced with an oligarch in turn. So Prussia would be a flawed democracy at best. Years of martial law and military rule would only make restoring a liberal democracy harder. Because the public remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis and East German regime, the government doesn't overextend itself that often.

West Berlin gets this reputation of being a progressive mecca and a thorn in the side of the mostly-conservative establishment. Conscription's still on the books, though there is an option for civil service. Said civil service no longer comes with the government-backed discrimination that it did in the East, but the stigma might still be there on a social level.

TL;DR the basic theme I want to have for the Prussia page is "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I also threw together a strike map some months back, which may help with figuring out what cities survive in the DDR and what doesn't. I used both the canon Prussia article with whatever other Cold War-era resources I could find.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Mal3ssio97 has been making extensive updates to Sicily and discussing them on Discord, but it hasn't been posted here yet. Benkarnell (talk) 18:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't he have done that BEFORE doing all these edits? Also, I think it's fair that all change discussions should stick to this talk page and not be divided into too many places. SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it should have been posted here earlier. Benkarnell (talk) 03:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, i just updated my changes on discord because there is where we talk everybody and where we consult each other, i apologize if i didn't do that before or do as Sigma said, but i can do it right now if you want. Mal3ssio97 00:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC) 17/01/21

It would be helpful to everyone if you could summarize here the changes that you have made. Benkarnell (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Here's a list of what i added in the article about Sicily (Italian Republic for me) :

• In this new version the regional government is not tappled or overthrow, but is forced due to superior events to allied themselves with the Cosa Nostra Clans of Palermo.

• The remnants of the clans and those in Eastern Sicily (Not with Cosa Nostra) would collaborate and assist the regional government against the more cruel and violent cosca of the Corleonesi, headed by Totò Riina.

• The Clans that did allied themselves with the government would see their members being given amnysty and the bosses would enter the real political life this time and legally.

• AFB Base of Sigonella would be given to the Italian Armed Forces stationed in the island and to the central government, in return the US personeel will be given Italian citizenship and to live in Italy, this will be extended later on to every NATO or US base encountered.

• The Corleonesi and Riina would be arrested under the charges of multiple homicides and other crimes related to his activites, there will be a maxi trail in Palermo where every main member of the clan would be processed, the propreties and anything of value frozen and seized by the government.

• Between 1985 and 1991 many people, mainly those who did fight against the Mafia before Doomsday would fled the Island, included the Judges Falcone and Borsellino, among many others.

• A new and stable government will be created by 1986, mainly composed by the old members of the regional governments but also new faces from the Mafia, mainly in charge of the economy.

• Between 1988 and 1990 the Sicilian military would oversee the reclamation of the Italian Peninsula up until the River Arno, in 1990 it would sign off a peace treaty with Tuscany, allowing to keep Southern Tuscany, but in returing giving it numerous concessions, among it autonomy and free navigation of the river.

• The government in 1989 would declare the Italian Republic, called also South Italy, it will comprise all of Central and Southern Italy, including Sardinia and Sicily.

• Palermo would since 1983 keep radio communications with Sardinia, Malta, various Italian cities, Tunisia and Libya up until the 1990s, unknowing how is the world in diserray.

• In 1991 the republic would recive the visit of the Australian Benjamin Franklin and the Portughese Abacorza Submarine, entering relationship with Austalia and Portugal, Italy will also send a submarine with the duo up until the Suez Canal.

• In the 90s the government would spend a lot of money to stabilizing and modernizing the poorest parts of Italy or those remain afflicted by the various events before 1983 Doomsday, like the Irpinia Earthquake.

• The government would liberalize much of the suviving economy in order to stimulate it, regulate old and new taxes, legalize prostitution and the use of light and later heavy drugs under stricht state regulations (Like Portugal), creating a tourism based on drugs, but also everyone can make of them.

• The economy of the republic would in many way look like that of the United States, Singapore, South Korea and Japan, where large private companies would hold monopolies over certain sectors.

• Speaking of his government Italy will be a semi presidential republic with a dominant party system like it was Italy before Doomsday and an Illiberal Democracy like Hunghary or Serbia.

Mal3ssio97 00:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Wasn't Silicy a Mafia rogue state responsable for wars and shady financing to totalitarism in this timeline? Also the old flag was better looking.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 06:00, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

No, or at last Sicily will become a autoritarian regime in 2002 - 2003, before it was an illiberal democracy or a single party dominant democracy, take for example Hungary in modern times or Mexico during the cold war.

Even if it looks cool to you is not the correct flag, that was the flag of Sicily, the island and it didn't make sense when Palermo control almost all central Italy and all southern Italy. Mal3ssio97 22:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Greece

Greece is a big topic. I'm planning to start a pretty deep and wide-ranging rewrite. I'm still in contact with the original writer, User:Mr.Xeight, and we're talking about some of the problems both with his original ideas and how they developed after he left the wiki. Some of the problems can be seen in the way that its writing developed. To briefly summarize how Greece got to be how it is:

1. Mr.Xeight offered his original idea: Greece as a Byzantine revivalist state that conquers all its neighbors and creates a new monarchy. This archived discussion, "New Lands for the Hungry UL", is a good illustration of his original mindset.
2. Other editors workshopped those ideas so that Greece became less powerful, a loosely-governed confederation of survivor states. Its territory expanded, but only because some of those states, in particular the islands, were able to extend help to the people suffering on the opposite shores. And then the League of Nations gave Greece "mandate" control over some other areas.
3. At this point, Mr.Xeight left.
4. A couple of other editors adopted the page and began to flesh it out, notably without marking it as a proposal again.
5. By the time they were done, Greece had become... a Byzantine revivalist state that conquered all its neighbors and created a new monarchy. The idea of expansion happening in small pieces and largely through the LoN was largely dropped.

After a lengthy discussion with Mr.Xeight off site, I have a basic plan for how to make changes to make Greece more realistic. Roughly, here they are:

• The idea of a confederation of small states that slowly reunites will be kept, but the goal will be the recreation of the Hellenic Republic rather than any kind of monarchy.
• The Peloponnese will still be a dictatorship, but Golden Dawn's role will be removed. That was a rather anachronistic element to put into the TL, because Golden Dawn in the 1980s was an irrelevant fringe movement and there are more interesting things that can be done with the region. This is Mr.Xeight's wish for the region - I actually argued that fringe movements have a chance to flourish in a post-apocalypse environment; but he really wants them gone.
• Greek expansion onto some areas of the Turkish coast will occur in roughly similar fashion: beginning as a humanitarian effort that slowly evolves into territorial control. But the expansion onto the African continent is wholly unrealistic. A new history would have to be written for Libya as well as Egypt and the Suez Canal. There's really no justifiable reason for Greece to have those territories in TTL - a shattered, targeted nation expanding into nations that were never targeted.
• The broad timeline of wars with Sicily will be maintained, but reinterpreted somewhat in light of the revisions being made both to Greece and to Sicily.
• Cyprus needs a rewrite to take into account the ethnic and cultural complexity of the place. It is unlikely to end up as Greek territory, but may be an ally. But things are going to get ugly there in the Aftermath period.
• With Istanbul destroyed, the Greeks will at some point try to establish a station there and claim it together with the Hellespont, but this remains a small presence today rather than a large-scale occupation of the whole region of Turkish Thrace.

Anyway, if this does go forward it will be a very big undertaking and probably take a long time and affect many pages. Personally I think it would be worth it, and luckily we have the blessing of the original author. (I can post screenshots if need be.) I hope we can discuss changes and ramifications as a group. Benkarnell (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Just saying that Cyprus would have no other choice but to reunify into a single state in those sort of times (even after it gets ugly as you say), there's just no way to continue the war between them without economic ressources and human cost, they can't afford to, they don't have any support left of Greece and Turkey to fight. They'd have to create a New Cyprus and a new joint identity, return to a pre-1960s Cyprus in terms of demography (before all the troubles lead to Greek-only areas and Turkish-only areas). But yeah, Greece was written like a sort of Greater Greece fan fiction meant to glorify one chauvinistic boy fantasy. I wonder what would happen to Gaddafi and Sissi?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well for Ghaddafi that all depends if he manage to continute to hold control of Libya, and for Al-Sisi if the war with Israel would still happen, and by consequence the destruction of Cairo, as for Libya there are three options; A united Libya under Ghaddafi, a united democratic Libya that overthorw him after a revolution, or a balkanized Libya similar how it is now. Also a united Libya can be the supplier of oil for Southern Europe, mainly Italy and Greece, and being an important African nation as well. Mal3ssio97 15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I feel like Gaddafi will be able to hold on to power for many years, as he did in OTL. Whether he is still there now will depend on how events develop. Benkarnell (talk) 16:17, 19 February 2021 (UTC) - my mind has changed on this, see below. I think that we should keep the storyline in which Gaddafi is overthrown in 1984. - False Dmitri (talk) 15:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I have written a modified proposal for Greece, currently at User:False Dmitri/sandbox. It mostly does what I said in the bulleted list above. There's a lot to it, it's a big and complex topic. And if the changes are accepted, that will entail lots of further changes: to the individual Greek states, to Egypt, and especially to Libya. With the exception of those countries, I tried to keep Greece's relationship with other countries the same, so that Greece can leave the same "footprint" in the timeline and we can avoid too many cascading changes. Some other things to note:

• The Hellenic Republic now serves as both one of the states, and as the national government. The idea is asymmetric federalism. I think it's a reasonable approach for the country to take, but it also just intrinsically appeals to me.
• I kept the ethnic cleansing of Cyprus, followed by its joining Greece as an autonomous state. No doubt some of its details will need to be re-written to take into account the island's complex history and demographics, but this seems to be a plausible if tragic end result.
• The original version had a lovely new capital being built on the island of Skyros. This seems unlikely to me on such an inconveniently tiny island, so I replaced that with a move to Chalcis. The former capital territory of Skyros then becomes an autonomous state.
• The last history written for Greece was 2012, when it invaded and occupied southern Albania. This had the same vibe as much of the rest of the history - the Greeks conquered and colonized a bunch of Muslims, who for whatever reason were happy and grateful for it - but instead of replacing this storyline, I kept it and added consequences for Greece diplomatically.

I'm happy with how this has come along, and I hope the group likes the general direction of the changes. False Dmitri (talk) 17:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Like i said on discord i fully support this review and the review of any article influenced by the old Greece, it's impossible that Greece would be able to go full Imperatioo Restorii in the span of merley 30 years, is stupid. Mal3ssio97 21:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Two months after I started the discussion, two weeks after I wrote my draft. I'll copy it over to the main Greece page soon, but that won't be the end of the process. If this version is accepted, then there will be a lot of follow-up work:

• Each of the Greek states will have to be brought into harmony with the changes - this won't actually be that hard, I don't think. The majority of what's there can stay, just removing some of the neo-Byzantine fluff.
  • Morea is probably the one to undergo the most changes, but fortunately its article is the least detailed of the whole set.
  • The North African states would have to be marked obsolete since they're being completely retconned. Which means:
• Egypt's history will need a more serious adjustment, probably necessitating a second Review. I would advise keeping as much the same as possible, including Cairo getting destroyed and maybe even a breakaway state in the Delta, at least temporarily. I'm willing to do some writing to sort out those details.
• Libya's history will need an even more serious rewrite. I'm convinced that the country will collapse, as currently stated, and I don't actually see any real need to change that part of the story, namely a military coup in 1984 followed by civil war. (What's unrealistic is that a random Greek movement with no weapons then sailed over in their fishing boats and conquered the country.) It may be that division in three parts (Cyrenaica, Tripolitania, Fezzan) is the likeliest long-term outcome for Libya.
• Albania would need mostly minor adjustments. I tried hard to write the new version in a way that kept the current Albania content intact. Most of the changes would be in the form of updates to show its recent history.
• I am also happy to be the one to clean up other scattered references to overridden Greece-related history, namely the monarchy and conquests in North Africa. That will be tedious but not too difficult.
• Accounts of close diplomatic and trade relations between Greece and the Algerian cities, and Greece and the Black Sea nations, are unproblematic and don't need any changes.
• Mr.Xeight also requested changes to some of the Macedonia-related content, in particular its occupation of Greek land north of Chalkidiki. I did not do anything with that mostly because it would involve a whole other collection of pages that would need rewriting. But he has a point that the process that went into writing Macedonia was less than ideal... eleven years ago. You can see for yourself how un-collaborative and downright nasty it all was, and it probably deserves a new look in a new decade.

- False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

First: Considering that myself and Oer are the ones (primarily) who helped finish things up on at least the sub articles, something about this at the start should have been said to us. Not bloody happy about that, and it's not the first time this has happened, despite rules or manners. For the record, I think you exaggerate the nation as we (and Xeight, since it did get approved by him and community!) laid it out, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Quite frankly, even though you discussed it with Xeight, I have to question just how much of that is his opinion, and how much is you adding to it, since you don't differentiate between the two all that much Doesn't matter much, but I don't like it either way.

I imagine parts of this you'll hate, some you'll like, and others will be "huh? - like normal for us, lol.

Restoring the Republic as a goal? You'd have a hard time pressing that as a goal in modern Greece otl, let alone here. Unifying Greece period, fine. Monarchy or not is a much more iffy factor, and if even one of the statelets has such a thing going on, you have to deal with it, be it at least as hereditary governors, or the like. At the very least, looking at the... very poorly done and somewhat corrupt referendums in the early 1970s, especially the 1973 one, the two areas that were close, despite the net results, are the Peloponnese area, and the Thrace/Macedonia area, with one region in each actually voting against a republic outright. Most of the votes for a republic, truthfully, were in the Athens Metro (40% of the population in the early 1970s, and roughly 35% in the early 1980s) and Crete. Taking out Athens by itself at least makes the referendum close. You see a similar result in most of these countries in Europe that flipped in the last century and a bit - corrupt or flawed referendum, with the monarchy side having little to know ability to do anything in it, and then barred from the country. Italy is another example.

The Peloponnese being under something like Golden Dawn makes a ton of sense. That area and the region around Mount Athos and towards Thrace are where such groups always do well, often getting near to surpassing 10-15% of the vote. Golden Dawn in the last decade is the highest of these, true, but not by much. More nationalistic parties like them do better in the Peloponnese, and the more religion based ones do better in the north, but they both do well in the other area too. (Comparatively, the communists do the same in the Athens Metro, Crete, and east-central Greece) Most of these parties, however, are temporary movements based around one figure or another, and none have lasted long even if they aren't. Little as Golden Dawn would have been in the early 1980s, they are probably the only organized group of their inkling in the area at the time, and them taking some semblance of control does make sense. The main political parties aren't based here, and their leadership more or less gone in Athens... recipe for disaster, or the extremists taking control.

Xeight may want them gone, and that may work long-term, but in the short term, not going to happen. There's just too many people of that direction there. As you note, Ben, this is their chance to shine/flourish. Heck, should he have control, Michaloliakos going as far as to crown himself something makes sense given his known personality and political goals. And, given things, "Despot" would be a far better choice than anything else.

The Egypt "expansion" is a combination of mandates, relatively neutral powers, and desires of the locals to have nothing to do with "Cairo." By all rights, the locals would have only the Alexandria area, but the Canal part comes into play because of local issues.

After DD, the Egyptian government teeters on for a little bit, before falling in a coup to the Muslim Brotherhood. When combined with the general mood (and, this is already going on, just made far worse) the coup leads to a ton of anti-Copt and anti-outsider backlash. Now, in otl modern times, the population of Copts in Egypt is 5-20 million, or 5-20% of the population. This is considered in many places to be an intentionally lowered figure, with the true number being anywhere from 25-40 million - we really have no idea, given how it is conducted. Given the bias of the government, and the obvious discrimination against them, no way to tell what it actually is. Heck, they don't even do the census in this regard by region, so we have no idea there. Though, given it is where the church head is located, it stands to reason that the largest number would likely be in the Alexandria area. Much the same logic exists for them fleeing there, both before and after the Israeli war atl. Heck, otl Egypt has only had a single token Copt governor, despite supposed rights from the government, and that was an appointed position off in the south somewhere for a very short period.

Add to the chaos in Egypt that they will have to change crops over from commercial to food (at least to some degree), and deal with fluctuations of the Nile. Some will go hungry.

Now, I can see the Brotherhood government wanting to get rid of this area, but... probably not going to be their priority, and a harder (supposedly) nut to crack than Israel, for somewhat obvious reasons. Israel would have gone, most likely, under a period of military rule (with the government largely gone, or regrouping, someone has to take control) and then joint rule with government remnants. Between the Israeli leadership vacuum, and the Palestinian leadership facing a similar fate in many ways, and the overall (military) situation, you're see some kind of agreement made/forced with the military. Not even going to begin to speculate on its exact nature (not wanting to open that can of worms) other than inducting the Palestinians into the nation somehow.

Now, remember: Palestinians have been screwed over by the local Arab governments at this point nearly as much as the Israelis. Promises made, not kept, opportunities not taken, land not given, states not set up, etc. A big list, really. Heck, Israel itself is on better terms by 1983 with a couple of them than the Palestinians are.

So, however the exact details are... you have Israeli troops, backed by Palestinian militia and possibly some troops from Jordan, facing the large Egyptian "conscript" army at the border. No matter how many people die or starve in Egypt, they will be outnumbered. the Israeli leadership isn't stupid - they can see the writing on that one. So, they nuke Cairo, removing the leadership there, and, since they time it well, screwing with the Nile and radiating the silt temporarily... and screwing with the crops downriver, at least somewhat. Maybe add smaller strikes on the military field headquarters too, though that probably isn't needed, and works better if the generals are the ones that start the war. Either way, the resulting leadership vacuum results in some of the troops attacking, but most pulling back towards Cairo, and into the resulting Civil War. I foresee a lot of dead this way, for a variety of reasons, and them being too busy to go after the Copts or Israel for a long time. This results in the Egypt state based out of more to the south as, or similar to, we have atl right now.

The Israelis, of course, take advantage of this, and crush those that are left, advancing to the canal. Not only is the land not effected by radiation, compared to their own lands, but the canal itself offers a far better defensive position. I'd also bet on them keeping anything organized from appearing on the other side of it, as well, since it would be to their benefit. This, combined with other things, screws up the canal, leading to later LoN work there.

Now, the Copts in Alexandria.. they will likely take advantage to seize part of the Delta. Can't blame them. They'd be radicalized by this point, with good reason. And overcrowded. By this point, I see Greek traders working their way out of the islands, and finding them. As they are not Muslims, overall, and given the Greek history in the city, I see them being treated fairly well. Especially since they'd be in need of food and other things, and the Greek Islands export a lot, so... works well. Now, they're not going to join the Confederation that forms in this era. But them allying with it does make sense. When the Federation forms, maybe some sort of associated status, given events near the canal.

The Canal itself.... as noted, the LoN will eventually get involved here, by need. The whole world benefits by having it open, but it is spilt between the Israelis on one side, and (sort of, as noted above why) the Egyptian government on the other, with little practical control on the west side.

For obvious reasons, neither Egypt or Israel will tolerate the other being in control, nor would Egypt want the Copts there... and the Israelis probably aren't going to be happy about that, either. That results in the LoN mandate, as noted, over the areas west of the canal and parts of the eastern Delta.

The LoN itself really doesn't have the means on its own the police/administrate the area, so someone has to do it. Look at the region... who has any means to do so, and is reasonably neutral? Honestly, the only answer is probably Greece at this point. So, the net mandate is government by them, in concert with whatever locals are there, supervised by an LoN official of some sort. More or less like the otl LoN mandates were. This results in the current "Kemet" state spilt into the Coptic "Kemet" out of Alexandria, and a Greek-governed "Suez" out of the Canal Area. Currently, this is more or less merged together, which is flawed, admittedly.

Copts still support the Greek cause in the Second Sicilian War, which changes little, since they are technically allied, and Sicilian aggression is a threat in their direction anyways.

As you note, Libya falling is going to happen. Too many things wrong there, and no international backing (heck, Sicily by this point may even be screwing with them on some level) will cause a collapse. The otl result from last decade is probably an improvement over how this would turn out. Now, from here, there is a lot of directions to go from there. The one that results in the smallest changes - the goal in any review, though many seem to have forgotten that fact - is putting a different "crown" in place and making them an "associated" or "allied" state of the Federation. There is a logic to this! I swear!

After the coup which he took power in, Gadhafi didn't exile or execute the Royal Family. Those who were in the country at the time were instead moved to a "walled villa" on the coast, and put under house arrest. My best guess as to why would be to not inflame the supported of the religious sect that they head into active opposition/revolt in Cyrenaica. As it is, they took it far better than I would have expected, for the noted reason, and to keep them alive.

Just before DD, in ~1982, their villa was sold from under them - Gadhafi seems to have somewhat forgotten them - and they moved into near-shacks on the beach near Tripoli. Note, too, that amidst all the attempts on him and his rule, a least one of the military attempts did have royal (in the east, Cyrenaica) backing, though only from a couple of princes that were outside of Libya in 1969... one of which ended up getting caught and imprisoned for decades. Even in modern otl times, there is a lot of support for them in this region, and one of the princes is even part of the head(s) of the eastern government. In many ways, this was even more prevalent in the past. Their religious movement has been at the forefront of resistance to Gadhafi in the east for pretty much his entire rule, in fact. As a side note, they only took over all of Libya with Allied support, and it was, considering where their later overthrow came from, a bad idea. Heck, the new Libyan "government" even adopted their symbols for the country! Have a look into their order, interesting history read.

Given his inattention of them, I don't see Gadhafi moving against them with DD. It certainly was not outside pressure that caused them to be ignored otl, after all. Heck, he cared so little not long after this that he signed off on them leaving the country. Of curse, had they fled earlier... bet on death.

So, when the ball really drops in Libya, they do have the supporters to flee to, and probably some nearby they can count on. If nothing else, they are on the coast, so they can get boats to flee in, which they'd know how to use. They'd have their pick of cities in Cyrenaica to go to and with some weaponry take over. Nothing too big, and likely one of the cities where they have more support. Guess would be Bayda.

From there, they would be able to expand some, but... military matters would prevent much further, with military units in control over more of the region. Around the same time as Alexandria, you'd see Greek ships getting here. I imagine the reception in Bayda would be better than elsewhere, and they would need arms, so... works well. Greek industry is, based on spread in Greece itself, better off than most, so they can to some degree meet that need. They'd also be more prone, from Morea, to arm the royals anyway. Eventually, this would probably get them shaky control of the region. Have them, from there, go the same route as Kemet. Given past events I rather doubt there would be much interest in going past Sirte, which I foresee as being an extreme hotbed of pro-Gadhafi forces and too hard to take/destroy.

Most of Fezzan would end up reverting to nomads and warlords, with Tripolitania going to chaos. I would imagine it being some combination of Sicilian and Senussi backed groups, jockeying for balance, not actively intervening since it would start a war... and when Sicilian forces do move, it helps start the Second Sicily War.

Far as I'm concerned, Sicily doesn't really need edits. I'm willing to listen - and a long post is coming on it - but far as I'm seeing right now, we have an Italian nationalist offended by some of it, and it needs to be looked at in that light. There's a reason we've always had the "local" rule unofficially in place.

You're wrong about Cyprus. Some details about it being added are a must, but the rest has long been covered. The only reason for the island to be as it is otl is Turkey intervened, quite frankly - why they didn't just spilt the island between Greece and Turkey instead of trying independence originally I'll never understand - but the continued presence of those troops is the problem. As Caer established, the army commanders that took over the southern coast of Anatolia were in charge of these troops, and recalled them to the mainland to bring order to it, which is within their ability and command structure. They'd bring what Turkish civilians they could with them, probably most. The strikes on the British bases would not hurt/help either side, in the end.

The lack of these troops and civilians, and the Greeks will take over fairly easily. That they would join up with a Greek state is a given, honestly. They'd do it otl if they could.

Calling Thrace at the two choke points and the islands in between "large scale" is an exaggeration. They claim the north side, and "control" it, but outside of a few pockets it is not "occupied" or "administered." You're going to see punitive expeditions in the region fairly often as the majority of it expands slowly, with Turkish arms being funneled in in recent years. A festering sore, but needed in their opinion.

The Hellenic Republic would be killed off at the head. We can place most of the leadership of both main parties in/around Athens at DD, and while Crete would no doubt be where it eventually regroups, it will take a long time. By the time they are able to exert much of anything, the idea of them being the national government is just not a realistic idea. They had little legitimacy at DD, and that just makes it worse. It's going to have to be part of a national confederation simply for that reason, with the other areas being separate parts, with just as much claim to be the official government.

The idea for the capital was always for it to be on all the islands in that area, spread out somewhat. Call it a lesson from DD.

The Greek state next to Albania has long held claim to the area, due to refugees and irredentist Greek attitudes towards the region(s) of Southern Albania. Even today a fairly large number of the people there are of such descent. That the "states" there are pariahs and rouge states... no one will complain much outside of Albania/Macedonia, who agreed to the move. Helps even more that the one statelet there joined the Federation.

Much as I hate to admit it, Macedonia taking over the immediate region of Thessaloniki makes some degree of sense, as the area is ruined and the Greek statelets have other problems. There's better non-ruined areas for a port, even in the north. But considering that Macedonian nationalists even otl claim the area, the move makes sense. Xeight may not like it, but the disputes between Macedonia and Greece over things like even the word Macedonia, it's likely to happen.

I do like your spilt for Mount Athos and the regions north of it to be separate. A oversight on the original work.

Think that covers more or less everything. May add if I rememeber more - been working on this on/off for a while.

Lordganon (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Without responding to all of this just yet, I did put some screenshots from our discussion at the bottom of Talk:Greece, the main differences that I had with MrXeight are that he tended to want even deeper changes than I do. So I didn't touch Macedonia, like I mentioned, and if you look at the draft I actually did not implement any real changes to Cyprus, other than get rid of some of the very questionable framing that tried to justify Greek actions at every turn. So my draft still has Cyprus unite with Greece.

(Edit: I made one other Cyprus-related change. The current version has the surviving British joining the Greeks to attack the Turks for no reason whatsoever. The revision removes this without specifying what the Brits did, but my plan is to simply have them flee, mainly to Malta. Mr.Xeight actually argued that they would be likelier to join the Turkish side... but it's too small a group to matter much, anyway.)

My version also still has Morea run by a hardcore nationalist movement, just without the Golden Dawn branding, which if you ask me is more than appropriate. Same with Mount Athos, I actually preserved the canonical history. The split (which I set as occurring in 2012) is an in-universe development since work was last done.

As far as demoting the Republic back down to just one member state, I find your points convincing; but the alternative should absolutely not be the Byzantine restorationist fantasy that we currently have. Though I did like one consequence of creating an asymmetrical federation: it allowed for federal reclamation projects in places like Central Greece and Thessaly. That may be something that can be recovered in a truly federal state, however; for example, making those areas federal territories (or generality lands, or what have you) that would eventually be raised to statehood. I can make changes to my draft and to my alternate map that would reflect this. An advantage will be that it requires less change to the Hellenic Republic state page.

And just in general, the overwhelming vibe of Greece is currently "nationalist fanboy fantasy, with some rationalizations sprinkled on top" - which is, in fact, precisely the process by which it was written. Virtuous Greece stumbling from conquest to conquest, until providentially it finds itself in possession of vast historically-Greek lands, all the residents of which are happy to be thus subjugated even while explicit cultural colonization commences. It's practically a textbook wank. It needs root-level changes because its roots are simply bad alternate history.

I'll have to look into some of your other ideas later, but those are some initial responses. False Dmitri (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

It's later. Again there's really no reason at all for Greece to be the one to benefit from collapse in Libya or Egypt... the only reason seems to be that Greece is the Mary Sue of the timeline and always comes out on top. The Greek state post-1983 has not ever reached the point where it could project its power even within its own territory. So how is it always acting as the prosperous hegemon when it comes to north Africa? If Suez was a disputed zone, the League of Nations is not going to just give it to a random neighboring country, especially one that has a history of, if not committing ethnic cleansing directly, then of being adjacent to it and benefiting from it (namely in Cyprus just before unification). The best and most probable solution in my mind would be some kind of multinational commission to run things, probably including Israel and Egypt and a handful of other Mediterranean and Red Sea/Indian Ocean nations. Maybe Greece could have a seat on that board. But there's no logical basis for Greece to just receive that territory, other than a desire to see the country "win".

And the same thing holds for the other pieces of Egypt and Libya. There are some very interesting stories to be told about those places, but "starving people seek help from Greeks and therefore get annexed" isn't it. That's not how things work, in this timeline or any other. Greece is in no position to help those areas, and even if they were, there's no reason for such a relationship to lead to anything beyond buying and selling. The fact that Greek people ruled those areas 2100 years earlier could not be less relevant. Those countries' histories need fleshing out, but I'd like to be able to do that without the gymnastics required to turn them into Greek states or satellites, or whatever. It's a bad idea that was conceived badly, and it will be better to just correct it and move on, rather than try and force it to work.

Final bit: the idea of a "dispersed capital" is interesting, but it's not at all what the current Greece page describes, which is a "New Athens" being constructed on Skyros. Dispersing the functions of the government to various islands is definitely interesting, but that too would require significant changes to what's currently written. - False Dmitri (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

If Greeks vote in favour of the Republic was because it was the king who let the dictatorship of the colonel being happening, in 1973 King Constantine II reluctenly supported the coup only to counter it after a while, that failed and he fled to Italy. This at the eyes of the Greeks showed that it was the King who endorsed the coup and let Greece become a dictatorship until the Invasion of Cyprus.

Also if you see the results of the referendum you will see that in every Greek region the republic won with a margin of 5 - 30%, depending on what region. The only region who voted for the monarchy are Laconia and Eastern Thrace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Greek_republic_referendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece

And we talked about Cyprus too, basically we decided that the UN Forces would join the Turkish forces in order to not be slaughter themselves by the Greek Cypriots, before 1983 North Cypus was federated into Turkey and it had a military force on the island, we expect that more Turkish military would arrive in the following weeks of Doomsday becuase Cyprus is a relative safe area.

About Sicily in real honesty i hate the idea of the original writers about the Mafia, the mafia is not romanticized in Italy and it will never be done again, thankfully. For me, if i had to rewrite Sicily without any stick to the lore i would say that the regional government, thanks to the caos of the apocalypse manage to arrest and detain the most powerful Bosses of Cosa Nostra and the other mafia of the island, this would cripple the organization and would set back and lay down for several years, but it will still exist. So yes, in my headcanon the unification would still happen, and the north would be divided between the Alpine controlled territories and the Italian Republic that controlled Central, Southern Italy and Sardinia.

One final thing, i'm not a nationalist, i was like in 2016, but now not anymore, i recognize how dumb i was back then for following a ideology that caused Italy to become a dictatorship and that bring to Italy only suffering and pain. Now i'm Europeanist and a federalist. Go check my profile. Alessio Mal3ssio97 00:03, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

To address the Cyprus thing, on Discord we discussed various options, including the above; but in my draft I decided to keep Cyprus as it was. The Turkish troops withdrew, the Greek Cypriots attacked, sad and tragic, but the Greek confederation then overlooked it and added Cyprus as a member. It's not the only possible route for the history, but it's not wholly implausible either; so it's not worth changing. False Dmitri (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

One final point that I'd like to make, and it's more of a macro-level pattern than something confined to one single article, like the monarchical restoration issue in the above section. You can see this pattern when you look at the stories of Greece and its neighbors.

Country	Damage	Result
Greece	4 strikes (5 in my draft)	Reunites, rebuilds the nation, gains territory.
Bulgaria	6 strikes	Reunites, rebuilds the nation.
Israel	13 strikes	Reunites, rebuilds the nation, gains territory.
Lebanon	4 strikes	Reunites, though details are mostly unwritten.
Cyprus	2 strikes	Near-total ethnic cleansing of the Turks, followed by annexation.
Albania	1 strike	Permanent collapse, fragmentation, partial colonization.
Egypt	1 strike (more in LG's suggestion above)	Collapse, fragmentation, and colonization, followed by a partial reunification.
Libya	0 strikes	Permanent collapse, fragmentation, and near-total colonization.
Syria	Many strikes	Permanent collapse and fragmentation.
Turkey	Many strikes	Collapse, fragmentation and partial colonization, followed by a slow, violent, and incomplete reunification.

As with the monarchs, any one of these outcomes might be justifiable, but the overall pattern is clear as can be. Even granting that the writers of the TL don't sit around hoping that Muslim nations "lose", there seems to be an implicit belief that the Muslim religion makes people bad at statecraft and government, while the Christian or Jewish religion makes people good at it. Correcting this implicit bias is another goal of this review. False Dmitri (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Vainakhia (1983: Doomsday)

I found this page and I like it. Do you think it is better that the current Chechnya (1983: Doomsday) page? Didcot1 14:39, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

This was Nox20's proposal to replace Chechnya, as you can see in Talk:1983: Doomsday/Review2#Chechnya. Nox asked me in a message on Discord to withdraw his proposal, which is why this is marked Obsolete and the discussion is archived. False Dmitri (talk) 16:43, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Vainakhia is not withdrawn, in fact, Vainakhia is going to replace the page Chechnya. Ben, it was noticed by certain people, that not only in Chechnya, but in a lot of pages by Lordganon, there is "an undeniable pattern" of "pretty serious anti-Islam in many of the things that he wrote". You could say that Lordganon is a racist to some level, in my opinion, that is one more good reason that some of his work can be replaced, because racism is disgusting. It does not make any different if this is fictional or real life, you don't write racism and then try to defend it unless you have something what is seriously wrong. Nox20 (talk) 23:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Greece has the same problem, yes. Same with Egypt/Israel. It's systemic to this project to an extent, and to some of LG's contributions in particular. False Dmitri (talk) 01:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Then Lordganon should come here and explain it, because he now can't deny it. I think that he will just run away again because, he will not admit that he messed up badly. I am also interested to know why AnomalousDucky wrote similar things on his page. Would be nice that they explain why they make everything looking like we are just a hole where terrorists spawn and, why they are writing things to look like every Chechen is a radical terrorist who just want to kill people. Nox20 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Salento LoN Protectorate

Hi guys, since i intend to review the article of Sicily, me and othe others had agree that the Lecce mandate was too much bias towards the Italians, so i rewrite it in my sandbox. Basically here after the initial 5 - 6 years of Greek administration both the LoN and the ADC agreed that the mandate should be over by now and in the same year Greece is forced to create a joint administration with Sicily, while at the same time removing Greek troops, LoN peacekeepers would take their place. I expanded the history of the mandate, his administration, defence and others.

Salento

Lecce Mal3ssio97 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

ADOPTIONS

Archive 1

Niue

Continuing my tour through Oceania, I am fleshing out Niue with GOPZACK's cooperation. Very small island means not a very long article, so I think the history part is done. Benkarnell (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

2015 Rugby World Cup

I would like to state my intent to re-adopt the 2015 Rugby World Cup article.

Godfrey Raphael (talk) 07:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Adopting the Islamic Republic of Iraq

I was one of the previous owners of the page on the Islamic Republic of Iraq and wanted to return to help improve the page. I feel that the layout and lore of the page needs to be updated.

Bonzu12 ([[1]]) 11:18 AM February/19/2021

Welcome! I'll respond on your talk too. Basic rule is respect what's been written already. For Iraq, there are a lot of gaps in the story, so that still leaves you lots of freedom. Benkarnell (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Adopting every Italian state

Hi, i'm Alex, a long time contributor of 1983: Doomsday, and i would ask if i can adopt every article about the Italian survivor states; Genoa, Tuscany, Venetia, Sardinia and Lecce too.

I intend to expand this article and add a bit of fresh to Italy, also to expand and correct some of the errors written 10 years about about Lecce, Venice, Genoa, Tuscany and Sicily too. I hope that you will agree with me that Italy need a refreshment and some adjustments. Mal3ssio97 23:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

...What you view as errors are not. Answer overall is "no" and "ask the authors" Lordganon (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Planning on a scale beyond the individual city-state is obviously necessary to clean things up, and not just for Italy. But we ought to wait til there's consensus on your current Review of Sicily, which is still in a very unfinished state. Once the new version of Sicily is confirmed, we can move on to planning the rest of Italy. One thing at a time. False Dmitri (talk) 16:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Wyoming

Does anyone have any ideas to help flesh out Wyoming's history, politics, and culture? 2020ckeevert (talk) 02:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Is there any way to justify adopting the improved, no-seal version of the flag, or is that just wishful thinking? False Dmitri (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is a reason to remove the seal from the flag. But we need to get to work on the history of Wyoming. 2020ckeevert (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Adopting Indonesia (1983: Doomsday)

Hi, I'm Khalif, a native Indonesian. And i would like to ask, if i can adopt the Indonesia articles. It hasn't been worked on for some time, and i would like to rework parts of it.

Khalif Ali Husain2 (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

...Follow the guidelines. You need to ask around and wait first. Lordganon (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)