Talk: 1983: Doomsday

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GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

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Conflict in Britain

I'm making this section to discuss the ongoing development of Great British Civil War and Edward Poll, and the giant set of events being planned around them. This was begun by MrWoodward, but he's stepped away from the wiki. SigmaHero045 plans to revise and finish all this. For now I've archived the enormous yearlong discussion at Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Great British Civil War and Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics6#Edward Poll. False Dmitri (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

The following is copied from the archived section. - False Dmitri (talk)

I have some thoughts about how this project could proceed further. I agree with the consensus from others about the reunification of England (or most of it, anyway) being inevitable for geographic and historical/cultural reasons, and the angle of New Britain playing a decisive role in that makes for an interesting story. However, I think this would work better if Queen Zara of Cleveland becomes head of state rather than Andrew, since Zara has remained in England with her mother since Doomsday and cannot be accused of "abandoning the homeland." Here's one way it could happen: the New British fleet arrives in England, as suggested by the previous editors, to put down Lord Protector Poll's claim to power. King Andrew goes along with them, thinking it would be good publicity for him to be seen leading his troops in the field. However, at some point during the conflict, Andrew is hit by a Pollist rifleman's bullet on the battlefield, and eventually succumbs to his wounds. This makes Queen Zara the next Windsor in line for the throne in a reunified England and also makes her the nearest claimant for the throne in New Britain, thus unifying the crowns. (It also works as a nice shout out to that other famous post-apocalyptic story, V for Vendetta, where Zara is on the throne as well, at least nominally).

There are two possibilities for how Zara's ascension might affect England-NB governmental structure afterwards: 1. England and New Britain could theoretically remain technically separate nation-states that share the same monarch (like the UK and Canada in real life), or 2. we could follow Mr.Woodward's suggestion of formally consolidating them into a United Kingdom of England and South Africa (or UK of England and New Britain), as he suggested. Personally, I think the second possibility is a bit more fascinating storywise. A United Kingdom of England and New Britain would be an interesting "1983DD twist" I think.

I also have a couple questions: If and when this reunion happens, should it use the pre-Doomsday version of the Union Jack, or perhaps one of the new suggestions by SigmaHero045 back in March 2020? I'd also suggest the possibility of maybe some fusion of the old Union Jack and the modified one that New Britain uses.

EDIT: I've created a proposal for how a combined version of the old and new Union Jack could look in the proposed United Kingdom of England and New Britain. I think it looks pretty nifty!

Also, does anyone have any ideas where the new English capital should be? New London is under CA control, I believe, otherwise I would've suggested it. Cleveland's capital Middlesbrough is one possibility, since Zara is already based there. But somewhere more central or in the south of England could work too. Anyway, I'm fascinated by the places this storyline could go. Let me know what you think. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:11, 4 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Still can't really buy this. The amount of hoops to go through alone is just a bit much. As some sort of internal Newholland crisis, maybe but more... eh.

I actually have to disagree with the idea that England unifying being inevitable. Smaller territories in Europe and elsewhere didn't otl, or didn't for a long time. Much of the unification of England was dynastic/political, not conquest, as well.

Atm, at least, its more of a Northumbria/Anglia/Celtic spilt. That does go along at least somewhat with the occasional call for various parts of England to have their own assemblies, like Wales and the other states.

At the very least, it's not happening right now. As we noted before, the Windsors aren't all that popular in much of atl England. In at least Southern England, its not impossible that they even join the Celts still.

It's basically impossible for New Britain to intervene in anything in the UK. Not only are their resources tied up in African matters, but they've sold off or scrapped most of their fleet in past years, so they really can't get any aid that would mean anything that far. That'd be like having otl Eritrea intervene in any kind of unrest in Europe today.

We've never really elaborated on it, but King Andrew does have a wife and children, married/born in SA. Zara's not his heir. Not that he'd be anywhere near a battlefield anyway.

Lordganon (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Ossetia (1983: Doomsday)

I noticed that the Osettia Doomsday 1983 article is faulty.

Vladikavkaz was city is an industrial and transportation centre and merited a tactical nuke. It is a big and implausible plot device that "The capital city of Vladikavkaz was also hit by a non-nuclear cruise missile, though it largely missed." A whole fleet would be used in a city since a single one would take out only couple of factories (see the Iraq War).

My rewrite would run as follows: A 10kt tactical nuke hit the military airfield at Mozdok. a non-nuclear cruise missile hit Beslan Airport, the Vladikavkaz zinc production site's main plant and Vladikavkaz railway station. The 10kt tactical nuclear cruise missile that should have hit the city center came along, though it largely missed and exploded mostly harmlessly in the mountains north of the town of Tarskoye.

Didcot1 (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

...Most of that really isn't all that helpful, to be honest. I've made an adjustment to the article, not sure how we/I didn't notice this when I spruced it up to make it presentable for the original author.

As an fyi, btw, tactical weapons have a limited range.... far less than here. And missiles really don't come that small, either.

Lordganon (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Tamil Eelam

The Sri Lankan civil war ended with a victory of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, a separatist and socialist resistance movement. I created the page since is canon that Tamil Eelam will exist, also the original writers of Tamil Nadu, screwed it up by making a lot of confusions between the two Tamils. Tamil Nadu or Dravidia is not a dictatorship, but rather a democratic nation, with a lot of inspiritation from Dravidianism, they will help their Eelamese cousins because the civil war in the 80s wasn't only fight by the Tigers, but also by a variety of other separatist groups, with the idea to extend their influence over Tamil Eelam. This didn't work, because as it happen in OTL the Tigers will purge any other revolutionary group, basically at the end creating a one party socialist republic.

Current Tamil Elam will be an allied of Burma, the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China and other communist nations, they will also be a member of the CSTO and of the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance if there is one. Tamil Eelam like i said will be a socialist republic and a strategic assets to the Soviet Union as a stepping route between Asia, Africa and Europe, for this reasons in my opinion the soviets will maintain a naval base in Trincomalee as a way to deter any direct military operation by Sri Lanka.

The whole situation will be similar to North and South Korea before Doomsday, with a communist north and a democratic south. Mal3ssio97 23:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Remaining former US states

I created pages for Maryland, Connecticut, and New Hampshire, following the format of other short pages like Massachusetts. These were the last of the former US states to not get this treatment, and they fill a gap on the Template:1983states which I recently made. I'm not listing them as proposals because they're short summaries of canonical info, but since they're new I ought to mention them here. Others could maybe add more information to them in the future. False Dmitri (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, Mississippi still does not have a general page either. The one that I linked describes a single surviving city-state. False Dmitri (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I made Mississippi. False Dmitri (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Egypt and Khemet

Cairo would not be the only target of the IDF! The Israelis may have taken a shot at the Aswan Dam and Cairo West Air Base to stop Egypt getting too strong for them to handle one the USA was no longer able to help Israel any more. To save cannon and lore it must be don discreetly! The proposed idea is that the IDF air-battle over Cairo West Air Base was a flop that caused little damage and the air-raid or missile strike missed the Aswan Dam by about a mile. As a result of this the Israelis will look as if they did something and neither the Egyptians or Khemeti will not lose anything they currently have. ~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

...Why would they do that? In 1983, Egypt has been at peace with Israel per the Camp David Accords for 5 years. If anything, it'd be the most secure frontier they have right after DD. Not that they are probably able to do this idea for a couple years afterwards, anyway. Lordganon (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

You're talking about the war in 1987, correct? False Dmitri (talk) 02:40, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

All the other posts he made at the same time as this mention 1983 as the date and are worded more or less the same, so... Lordganon (talk) 06:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Adding new pre-DD media to some pages?

Can be some pre-DD goverment ideas add on some countries to explain better the story of them during 1983? I.E, here´s the pre-DD spanish goverment, all of their members died

A photo of the last known Spanish Goverment, that died on Doomsday after the Soviets nuked Madrid, and other military bases and cities. After that, the country fell to anarchy and chaos. The image was took in December 7, 1982, and shows the cabinet of Felipe González from the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE), that was formed on 3 December 1982 following the latter's election as Prime Minister of Spain by the Congress of Deputies on 1 December and his swearing-in on 2 December, 1982

CentraleuropeDD (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

1. I moved this discussion to the correct place. Please don't use the "Add Topic" button here, instead find the appropriate section and add a subsection.
2. You're talking about the direct effects of 1983? This seems OK to me, as it largely is just adding some detail to information that we already know.

False Dmitri (talk) 13:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society

Archives: Page 1 • Page 2 • Page 3

Miscellaneous discussion

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Salento

Hello to everyone, i have started two days ago at rewriting the Lecce in my sandbox, is almost done as i only need to finish up economy and defense, i added much more lore then in the canon page and also much more informations about the regions itself and adjusted some contradictions: https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User:Mal3ssio97/Sandbox Mal3ssio97 00:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27

Natalie Hershlag

I have already written up an article about Natalie Hershlag, the 1983: Doomsday version of OTL's Israeli-American Jewish actress. Since her parents, Avner and Shelley, were living in Jerusalem in 1983 just one year before moving to the States this mean that they alongside their daughter survived the nuclear catastrophe that shook the world since the city was spared from bombardment thanks to the IDF shooting down missiles intended to blow up the place. Since her Hollywood stardom path is obviously butterflied, she would likely become politician and leader of Da'am (a joint Jewish-Arab party) since national unity would be very prevalent amongst most Israeli ethnic groups after Doomsday aside from some exceptions such as terrorist organizations like the Hamas Caliphate or ultranationalists like Likud (which I hope to outline much later).

Right now, I'm trying to place a photo of her at Columbia University on the article as if she were speaking at a political meeting but I can't properly make it upload. Ficboy

This seems fine to me. Israel in general is heinously under-developed. Basically no history written after 1983, just the implication that it annexed Sinai and the Palestinian Territories, without ever saying how. (And honestly that needs to be looked at: how did a nation smashed by nuclear weapons manage to take territory from a nation that was never targeted??) So is this the start of a more complete exploration of Israel's history? If so, that's exciting. But either way this article seems OK to make canon. False Dmitri (talk) 21:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

All of that is covered in Egypt's History. Suffice to say, the Muslim Brotherhood took over the government there, picked a fight with desperate Israelis, who nuked them in response. Lordganon (talk) 03:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

That's pretty ridiculous for a number of reasons, though probably it's too long a conversation to go into here... But actually it's not clearly written anywhere how Israel managed to survive as a coherent nation - plenty of countries in TTL had a lower density of targets but still collapsed, either temporarily or permanently. I don't know, as for Natalie, maybe this proposal has to wait until we know more of that background history. The proposal implies a more or less normally-functioning society for most of Natalie's life, something that to me seems very far from certain, and actually quite implausible.

(edit) One solution may be to hold some of the details in this article in abeyance - either comment them out or move them to the talk page - until we know more about Israel's history. The main thrust of the proposal is certainly fine: that Natalie survived in Israel, became a politician, emphasized unity and reconciliation between Israel and Palestine. In fact that's another thing that's hinted but never explained: that Israel and Palestine merged or something. It may turn out that Natalie played a role in that process. False Dmitri (talk) 19:55, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit) I hope someone can really edit Israel's 1983: Doomsday page to add more information about the political and social history of Israel. Considering the after-effects of Doomsday, Israel and Palestine would unite for the sake of survival even if they have some differences. The setup for Natalie is solid and can work as you said. In fact, why not have her play a role in the Israel-Palestine peace process like you suggested. As far as her life is concerned, let's be honest it isn't stable since she and her family were confined to their bunker not to mention the steady stream of Arab refugees into Jerusalem. Ficboy (talk), 20:09, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I meant the stability implied by having Natalie graduate from Walworth Barbour American International School. There's no reason to assume that something like that would still be functioning in 1985 - the country had just been hit by thirteen nuclear warheads. Normal life was not going to just carry on after that, it would take a generation at least. And by details about the unwritten history of Israel, I mean "the War on Terror against the Hamas Caliphate from 1999 to 2003", as well as the mention of Benjamin Netanyahu. Both of those things strike me as overly convergent, even cliche. "War on Terror" is a George Bush catchphrase from the early 2000s. Hamas didn't exist in 1983, and anyway its OTL goals do not include the establishment of a caliphate. And we don't know whether Netanyahu became a prominent politician in TTL - and for me, it's always more interesting to use lesser-known figures. And anyway, it would be much better if all that were worked out as part of a more intentional plan to write Israel's history - not just casually mentioned like this, thereby becoming canon that would constrain future writers.

So my point is the same: I think this can work, but without some of those details, until we know more. False Dmitri (talk)

To be fair, life is far from stable in Israel since her family in this timeline had to stay in their bunker for a while and that's not getting into the massive Palestinian refugee surge in Jerusalem. Also, I checked up the Walworth Barbour International School and it was located in Even Yehuda which is near Tel Aviv and not Jerusalem, so that detail has to be changed. Also, if there is a Hamas or at least an alternate timeline equivalent they would have different goals due to the chaos and destruction caused by Doomsday (I took the idea of Hamas wanting to establish a caliphate from The Eagle Down Under timeline by LouisTheGreyFox). As for Benjamin Netanyahu, he was Deputy Chief of Staff for the Israeli Embassy in Washington DC and since it was nuked in the Doomsday-verse, he's pretty much toast unless he is able to escape just in time. Overall, I agree that the basic premise can work but we really need to rework the details. Ficboy (talk).

I 100% agree with that. For now, with the history of Israel still mostly unwritten, I would still recommend trying to create the character of Natalie without all that many details about that bigger history. Telling her life story, creating this political career and personality for her, but in a way that doesn't commit you to all that many details about Israel and Palestine in general. False Dmitri (talk) 18:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as Netanyahu is concerned, since he would be an adult at this point, he may or may not survive this timeline and might enter politics but regardless his career as an MP would certainly not be the same as OTL. Hell, he might not even become Prime Minister. Ficboy (talk) 03:35, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, I am looking for a photo of her as if she were a politician in this timeline instead of a Democratic actress of our world. I've checked up the photo thread for 1983: Doomsday in Alternate History Discussion. At page 33, it has a few photos of her from OTL that can be used for her Doomsday character page. I can't upload a photo properly onto this website so I suggest False Dimitri that you should post one of the three photos on that thread from AHD, please. Ficboy (talk) 04:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC).

Oh man, this is still being discussed over there? Could you link to that? I'm not even sure which forum to look in. False Dmitri (talk) 11:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Here it is. https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/photos-from-1983-doomsday.431280/page-33 Ficboy (talk) 11:54, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Subalpine Federation

I have revived the page about the Subalpine Republic, it has been agreed also by Thewolvesden and by Benkarnell that this page does fit into the lore of 1983: Doomsday and so it can be added again as a proposal Col. James Hsu 23:01, 28th September 2020.

I'm moving this to the Proposals section, since that's what it is. And I. must point out that the conversation on Discord was between James Hsu and Thewolvesden - I wasn't actually involved and haven't had time to read this yet. Benkarnell (talk) 20:55, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

How can it even coexist with the Alpine Federation? And do you imagine all the wars and geopolitic that would have to be rewritten to make it work?

17:55, October 3, 2020 (UTC)SigmaHero045 (talk)

What do you mean by that ? And the Alpine Confederation is one of the most important allied of the federation, also not that much articles need to be rewritten in order to be fit into the lore. Only a couple since it change only Italy Mal3ssio97 03/10/2020

I think this could work, but it needs some significant changes. In general, it's too big, too prosperous, and emerges too early. This does create conflicts with canonical information about the region.

The central change that needs to happen is the description of how the federation came to be in 1991. A peaceful referendum of all the communities of the area. If this became canon, the whole history of the region would not make sense. If this alliance were capable of good civil administration over such a big area at this time, why wouldn't they simply unite with Genoa and Tuscany too? A state like that, with its affairs clearly in order, would have become the driver of Italian reunification. But we know that Italy is not united. That means that the pockets of control in the 80s and 90s were small, struggling, and most of all non-contiguous. So 1991 could be when some surviving villages and refugee camps in the area entered into some kind of alliance. Later they could establish a more regular government, using the 1848 republic as a model. But even then, I don't think it would be the sedate referendum portrayed here.

In terms of geopolitics, what has been known about this area until now was that it's part of the Alpine Confederation's sphere of influence. That should not change with this new discovery. All existing maps show that Alpine troops have a presence here; that means at least a base and a guarantee of free passage through the territory.

A few other issues that need to be addressed:

• The population: I doubt there is a single spot in Europe that has a higher population now than in 1983. It was not just the deaths from war. It was also the subsequent decades of worse diet, worse health care, and low birth rates. If you adjust the chronology and the size of the communities, you should get to a more realistic number.
• The economy: At some points it makes sense, for example noting that the economy relies on agriculture and receives significant foreign aid, and some recent foreign investment. But this picture is contradicted by the rest of the proposal. It presents a nation with an industrialized economy and a modern, first-world standard of living. Again, if a small federation in Italy were able to achieve this, the rest of Italy would make no sense. Industry can be going through some revival. Nutella can be happening. But not at the scale now implied. The modern capitalist economy has not reappeared in places that were heavily attacked like Europe - simply because there is not much capital anymore.
• Globalization: Many parts of the world are less isolated now than they were in 2010, but this is still not a world where companies in northern Italy are going to be opening up offices around the world. And I have not seen any suggestion at all that international commercial air traffic has come back. I would expect goods, recorded media, and possibly some investment from South America to have reached the Subalpine region by now; but the robust global economy implied here does not exist. And certainly there are no European companies with enough capital to start investing overseas. This also applies to the media companies.
• Energy: I'm uncertain on the possibility of a pre-war nuclear power plant surviving and functioning all the way down through the years. The best possible scenario, I think, would be that a competent crew working within a stable town could shut the plant down safely, avoid meltdown, and contain the radioactive materials. And I do not think that anyone in Italy would want to consider bringing it back online in later years. Most people would be understandably terrified of nuclear power.
• Foreign relations: I'm not sure that it has the resources to operate embassies in so many countries. A few overseas, sure, but not so many. And the Alpine Confederation no doubt is empowered to represent its interests in some other countries.

On the other hand, I really like the vision of the French newcomers changing the culture of the region. Most 1983dd pages portray refugees solely as a threat, and don't think about their influence on the host country in the long term. This actually inspires me to write about similar changes in some of my countries for this timeline.

I also think that the form of government is reasonable. Except that, again, it should be presented as emerging later. Maybe even post-2010. Most of the written history of Italy stops around 2010, so if we say that this Federation reached its complete form after that, it would avoid interfering with canon.

I also really like the flag, arms, map, photos, and political graphics. Visually it's a good addition to the timeline.

I'm willing to help proofread the English, but I'll wait until the content is revised.

- Benkarnell (talk) 16:00, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Basic idea good, but the region is part of the territories controlled by the Alpines. Lordganon (talk) 02:54, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice

This section is copied from the archived discussion at "Some Proposals I've been working on". - Benkarnell (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice - Was at Stanford on Doomsday in OTL. I've traced a potential post-Doomsday bio for her, in which she serves in various teaching and diplomatic roles in California. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:27, June 22, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Your article you should add more details and be more clear so someone who doesn't know who she is (like me) know how she went from Alabama to a Carter administration job to Denver to California. How did she gain her reputation as a Soviet specialist? Did the fallout affected her area (be careful to not have a version different from canon here)? Warning: Remember that the Municipal Pacific States only came to be in the second half of the 2000s so you're making a lot of big contradictions here. Even more in contradiction: look at how far the MSP region is from Santa Cruz, not to forget all the nuked areas in the way just to arrive at an unstable warlords-driven living hell lacking in everything whom the terryfying word of mouth about the crual Boss Jones come out spreading throughout the west coast. Unless her colleagues were suicidal or just stupid, I don't think they would want to go there. The California republic is not better by much: the government in the second half of the 90s collapsed and they are victims of foreign attacks, they'll only reform in 2006, de facto 2003. It was pretty much anarchy until then. With what path will they go to anywhere? Chumash? On civil war. Sierra Nevada? In a Spokane war of some sort (not much details). The only somewhat safe place to go would be Visalia and be accepted residing there by the authorites by doing manual labour there until a better option could be found. Then when the California republic would reform and actually be stable, her whole gang of intellectuals could go take refuge there realistically around 2006-7 and start working at that college before she go do her diplomatic thing. I wonder under such a story if Visalia would accept her (or if she would feel comfortable enough to do it given her record up there of fleeing the place) as a representative of the new California republic. Big big changes needed. SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:42, June 24, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I admittedly wrote that proposal in a bit of a rush. I will take a look at how to make some changes for how she ends up in the California Republic.

For her background, she worked for President Carter at the State Department starting in 1977. Previously, she'd been mentored at college by professor and anti-communist former diplomat Josef Korbel. She also served at Stanford University's program on arms control and served a Ford Foundation Fellowship on Soviet studies and international security. You're right, I will take your advice and expand on how her background would affect her reaction.

GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yeah, doesn't make much sense for her to go to anarchist California republic. I sincerely thinks she won't make it alive unless it goes the only sort of way I could imagine: to Visalia and even with that I'm still not 100% convinced the king in place wouldn't do bad things to her as an intellectual.Good that you go expend her background. SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:44, July 21, 2020 (UTC)

In general this vastly underestimates the level of social breakdown in the Bay Area during the 1980s. The picture we've had so far has been one of total collapse. Even if Stanford was not attacked, there's no way that institutions like the town government would survive after the first year or so. And the university itself might persist as an organization so that it could rescue books and such, as you say, but it certainly is not going to carry on with classes and routine work, which is currently implied.

I think that Condi could stay and be part of the salvage, but head east fairly early on, together with many other Bay Area refugees. But then here's another big discrepancy. The northern part of the Central Valley, which we know would eventually become the California Republic, was not anything like a modern functioning state. Look over the page a little more. In 1989 it devolved most governing power to the counties (and many of the counties were barely getting by). In 1999 it dissolved completely, only to be re-established in 2006.

Maybe those could be the years that Condi was working as a teacher, maybe Stanford was able to find a spot in the Central Valley where it could stash books and other valuable items, and begin to operate a school of some kind. (To respond to points by Sigma earlier, just because the central government wasn't functioning, doesn't mean it was a total hellhole. It would be a lot of refugees in camps and settlements. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant... but certainly better than the Bay Area itself.) And then, I could see her as one of the leaders behind the movement to re-establish the Republic. I could imagine her holding the office of Chief Diplomat from the Republic's founding until now - probably the politics of the Republic are unstable and uncertain, but she could be a steadying force.

Benkarnell (talk) 17:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Montserrat

Hey guys, its me, Fitzy. You might know me from the discord or on Domesday map game. Recently, I have taken an interest in writing up a proposal for Monsterrat. The tiny territory has no mentions despite having of of the most significant events in the late 20th century; the Soufrière Hills eruption that rendered 2/3 of the island uninhabitable. That happened in the 1990s, however. Monsterrat is a small island, it pretty much depends on the Uk for everything. Right- now I have a very wip page on my sandbox: https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User:Fitzy374748/Sandbox Its pretty barebones atm. If you have any suggestions, then please tell me on my talk page. Fitzy374748 (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

What do you imagine for Montserrat today? I can imagine the place being basically deserted. It's close enough to other islands, and the mainland, that by now just about everybody could leave who wanted to. False Dmitri (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Nuclear power

I started this when I realized that nuclear power plants were another source of major damage during and after the Doomsday event, but that they had been largely ignored with only a few exceptions. I've been trying to match the story of each plant with what's currently written about its local area. I just finished listing all the plants in the Americas, which means it's not even half done. It's another one where I would appreciate others taking a look, especially those with an interest in particular local areas. So especially if you're someone who writes a lot about a particular region, please check and correct this page. No need to even discuss it unless you have further questions about it.

There are a few ?'s on the tables. Mostly these are situations where the plant is located inside a surviving city-state that seems not to have the resources necessary to maintain it safely, even when shut down. Examples include Russellville, Arkansas; Gainesville, Florida; and Oswego, New York. We'll have to put some thought into what happens with those power plants.

I hope that this can become a useful resource for future writers, something that they can check together with info on nuclear and conventional targets. False Dmitri (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Virginian-Delmarvan War

Here we go again. I've got the basic idea, but I need help in ending it. As we speak, the war would have been ongoing for three months now. A poll suggests that Virginia would win, but I'm not sure how to conclude this. Any help? Firestarthegodcat (talk) 03:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Welcome back. The main thing to come out of the previous discussion is that you'll need to spend some time developing the causes behind the war. The written history for Virginia only goes to 2010 or so, that of Delmarva is pretty sketchy from start to finish. That provides a lot of time in-universe to develop conflicts between the two, and decisions by individual leaders, that could lead to a conflict.

One part of the bigger context is that both states are pretty firmly committed to being independent states, or at least they were as of c. 2010, both of them being members of the League of Nations. Neither one seems likely to be pro-Union, and as members, each presumably recognizes the existence of the other. That's something to keep in mind.

I think that a war like this would be worth writing about. It could provide an interesting set of news items. But it will need some more deep development so that it doesn't come out of nowhere. False Dmitri (talk) 13:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I noticed how Virginian President-Generals rely on loopholes in a vague constitution to stay in power and abuse people. The locals don't seem very smart. Their government also seems to have an obsession with being feared.(key point) Delmarva also hasn't had a notable leader since 1998, though that could change if Joe Biden gets canonized.

Back to the issue at hand, Virginia likes annexing neighboring states that are too weak to stand up to it, but Delmarva seems strong enough to protect itself, at least in the short term. Perhaps it might start with small border clashes, then grow in size, IDK. Firestarthegodcat (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

...I see a poll at 50/50.

Really, these are two states that are both internationally recognized, and have different goals in mind. Virginia's expansion goals, after the port, are more north(ish) than not. They may not be happy with the presence of Delmarva in the east, but there's also nothing they can really do about it, especially since the regions in question have been part of Delmarva through peaceful means for a long time. Remember, too, that the Delmarva map is from 2009.

Delmarva's overall neutral stance means that this would go over badly, too. Think Switzerland.

Virginia has a lot of commitments elsewhere, too. While the actions in Tennessee may mostly be by Kentucky, they are involved there too... in addition to all of their other frontiers. We also know they were starting in the direction of some sort of relations/alliance with Gettysburg.

The Virginian government has started to reform itself in recent times as of the last history in the Virginia article, and years have passed since then.

...Don't know where you got the annexing part from. They've gotten involved outside their borders at local request, or in retaliation for attacks on them, but not much more. Kentucky's more the one guilty of that, imo.

Remember, the two are more or less equal in strength.

Something else, though... last time it was discussed, Delmarva was a state we talked about ADC membership for. Even if it hasn't occurred by now (the thought was something like the successor to the USA, or something similar, if I recall) the mere consideration of it would have to come into play. If they are in the ADC, no way Virginia even thinks about this.

Now, I'm not saying this can't happen - with the right story, it could - I just don't see it working out. Ben's right about it making interesting news, but maybe somewhere else would work better?

Lordganon (talk) 03:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

History of ideas (1983: Doomsday)

I started this article recently. I'm trying to think about how Ideas would develop around the world post-1983: philosophy, the humanities, religion, science, political theory - intellectual life in general. It's marked as a Work in Progress rather than a Proposal because it's really unfinished. Right now it's mostly just my own musings and speculations, maybe not very well focused. But I think this is an article that would benefit from more than one person's point of view. So anyone is invited to add to it - especially the section "by Region", but really to any of it. False Dmitri (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey Dmitri! Sounds like a fascinating article! I had some ideas about adding to it. For instance, I remember writing a while back in the religion section of the Caribbean Federation article how Rastafarianism sees a boom in growth after Doomsday. The reasons being that 1970's-80's era Rastafarianism tended to be very critical of the outside world and believed that the modern world at that time was on a destructive course. I could imagine many people in the Caribbean, whether rightly or wrongly, seeing Doomsday as a vindication of that idea, and many of them embracing that belief system in the aftermath. I could also imagine many in-universe Christian denominations believing that the events of the Book of Revelation had finally occurred, and having various responses on what to do next. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Yes, please add to it! There's a separate section for the West Indies now, so you can add a paragraph or two about Rastafari. And for North America and Europe, the places probably most likely to see apocalyptic preaching, there's very little on religion so far. Actually in general there's not enough religion on that page, though there is also a separate Religion (1983: Doomsday). False Dmitri (talk) 17:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I also added a bit about a resurgence of Deism in North America as well, and tied it into your idea about American survivors embraced a lot of older, pre-Cold War ideologies. Deism had been popular and influential among the American Founding Fathers, and I could imagine people embracing some of its viewpoints on the universe in the aftermath of Doomsday. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 01:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

I expanded your religion sections a bit, mostly to connect them to the rest of the article. I hope that's OK. False Dmitri (talk) 22:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

No problem at all! I like the stuff you added about how literature was affected by these attitudes! I've also adjusted my New Jersey Skylands article to include several references to the population being one of the smaller ones in North America, as well as discussing political effects of this, such as adding the point that the Skylands was very loosely-connected for several years, as well as adding an idea that most local officials would serve for rather long periods of time due to their being a smaller pool of candidates to draw from. Let me know if you think it's ready for graduation or not! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 23:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

The page is in a pretty stable state right now, so I think it can be discussed as a proposal so that we can approve or modify what's there. It's not totally finished - but really it will always be expandable. So I'd like to propose approving the description of general trends, as well as some regional content. I have moved this section from Culture/Society to Current Proposals. False Dmitri (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I spoken with some germans yesterday and some even members of this wiki, they said that Germans as well us Italians, French and other nations that are a republic for more then 50 years have said to me that Germans don't miss the monarchy and only neo nazi or kaiserboo have this fetish towards the monarchy, so yeah i agree with Sigma that if the original writers wanted Prussia so much then a "Prussian State" or a "Prussian Republic" would had work so much better in my opinion, but here we are.

Thou i still think that if you want a monarchy then it has to be democratic as possible, on the level of the United Kingdom, no way semi authoritarian monarchies are gonna work in 21th century Europe were all of the monarchies are constitutional and parliamentaries one. Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "fetish" is rather insulting, fyi.

Much as I think the poll is bogus (as noted why, plus I suspect, and exit polling tends to support this in other fields, that "social pressure" and other factors mean the number is actually higher, especially if you use specifics) you quoted it so we'll use it. A third of Germans are in favor, according to it. At most, and that is in the last election, your "neo-nazis" (who don't support a crown, fyi), just a bit over 10% of the vote. That's the most they've gotten in decades, since long before DD. Now, I'm aware that a certain portion of the "tent" conservative parties are going to agree with them on some level, but not a majority or even a plurality of their members will be. So your statement isn't true.

That current upswing is more about the EU than anything, as a note. You see a similar increase on the more communist side of things.

You see about the same patterns in place in the other western republics. There is a reason why, in France for example, they legally care about who the claimants are, and even today, two of the three general political patterns there are "Bonapartism" and "Bourbonism," even if the overall monarchial ties are shorted out right now. As an example, Du Gualle is someone from the more Bonaparte school, with regards to policies and attitudes.

But that is today - we're talking about 1983-1990. Different picture. You know your older relatives, the ones that want a return to the "good old days"? Ignoring a lot of the more bigoted parts (not saying there is with yours, but you get the idea) it is about the world as they knew it when they were young, and/or the stories they were told growing up. A lot of the politicians, and the like, of the era are those who were born in the WWII era, or just before. Meaning that their parents were that generation for WWI. So that "drawback" to the past here would have been for those glory days, in their minds. Ahh, Nostalgia.

Now, republicanism in Germany has never been a strong thing by itself. Kind of a this is what works thing, if that makes sense. There's a reason why there was at least two (Hanover and Bavaria) moves for crowns/independence after WWII, which failed largely due to US pressures. And the Easterners have been under dictators since the 1930s by this point - they'll want a strong leadership of some sort, which the westerners won't go for on near the same level. About the only in between there is a crown, so... Add to that the "foreign" garrisons of West Berlin.... Presto! If nothing else, call it the king an independent arbiter.

Prussia is mostly a constitutional state, but, as noted, you've got to have a stronger monarchy than others to satisfy things, especially given the trying times of DD.

Western Monarchies, btw, have a lot more power than you think. It's just that by practice and culture, they don't do it.

Lordganon (talk) 14:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Eh, it's more than fair to call the giant list of restored monarchies in this TL a "fetish". I'm guilty of it too and regret doing it for Hawaii (quite possibly the earliest example of the trope in this timeline). Any individual case might be justified, but it's happened in well over a dozen countries. I suspect this has much to do with the typical alternate history enthusiast's interest in dynasties and genealogy, very little to do with a real assessment of what people in the different communities would look for if society ever collapsed. And Prussia's one of the sillier ones, in my opinion. Like Alex says, it's a pretty obvious case of Kaiserreich fanboyism with a story written around it.

Now it happens that said story has developed into something that's not that bad. It's been through an extensive Review process and fitted pretty well into the overall setting, with enough there to justify some of the more outlandish turns of events. I wouldn't support a total rewrite of the canon unless there was a very strong desire to do it by everyone involved. (And honestly I'd be willing to do the same for Hawaii, I'm sort of annoyed to be part of the problem like that.) False Dmitri (talk) 02:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

<Freely admits to being guilty of that "trope" by virtue of being a monarchist>

Not a "fetish." that's insulting. There's a lot of better terms for the idea you mean.

Funny enough, with the loss of the capital/Oahu and the larger bases, the "haole" population of Hawaii would have taken as massive hit. Add that the "locals" are far more inclined to be in favor of independence... bet that one makes sense more than almost anywhere else globally, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's what I had thought too, but some reading since then shows that Maui and the Big Island's ethnic demographics aren't all that different from the state as a whole. But again my point is that any one restoration might be understandable. It becomes almost humorously absurd when the same thing happens absolutely everywhere. I count twelve thirteen states in Europe alone that are governed by royals today that were not in 1982. Add four or five more in Central Asia. Individually any might have a reason. In the aggregate it's ridiculous. Like everyone looked out the window and said, "On my! Nuclear war! We'd better call up the nearest heir to a deposed dynasty." I am strongly in favor of reducing this crowd of restaurados and I'm more than willing to start with the page that I created. Prussia too - if there's a strong community will to do it, and a credible and well-written alternative. False Dmitri (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

<waggles hands> Depends on how you count the "ethnicity" and who is doing the counting - varies from a hundred thousand "pure" natives, to more than 500k that can claim descent (and often do) in the islands alone. One of those things, you know? As for the idea... restorations, maybe, but we don't see enough states that have people declare themselves such and control areas, so it probably somewhat evens out. Lordganon (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"DD, tell more of your plans."

Apologies for not seeing all this until April, real life stuff and procrastination got in the way. What I want to add to the Prussia page is some extra history and nuance to waht I see as a rather contrived even:, mostly on how the monarchy came to be, Prussia's history post-2011, some additions to its culture, economy, and political structure.

I wrote a pretty good summmation of what I want on the AH Wikia Discord, so I'll just repost it here.

Obligatory wall of text warning. Also, some stuff is from my personal headcanon, so disregard anything about surviving cities and the like. About 90% of it is what I actually want.

The former DDR is dominated by Prussia, which got off lucky thanks to the Soviet first strike crippling much of NATO's short-range ability to respond, sparing a handful of cities in the north (most major Berzik capitals north of the Elbe river, the south got screwed over thanks to population density and its industrial areas). Honecker and much of the higher-level officials were found dead from suicide, imprisoned or were outright lynched in some cases. As for the NATO and WP forces stationed in the city, cooler heads prevailed as they set about stabilising Berlin, bringing both sides of the capital and some of the surrounding cities (Postdam, Bernau) into a loose military government. Sounds contrived, I know, but I had to justify why the DDR and Soviet troops just didn't massacre their NATO counterparts.

Much of the northern DDR is reclaimed in the ensuing months and years, clearing out much of the de-facto Stasi and Volksarmee warlords that controlled the surviving northern towns and cities. After almost a decade (1991-92-ish), the Interim Administration for a United Germany is replaced with a revived Prussian state (mostly after they find out that much of the old East and West is unsalvageable for the time being), led by a surviving Hohenzollern (it can be Christian-Sigismund, but I like to think that Louis Ferdinand was in Berlin at the time of DD). Much of the already established lore for Prussia (war with Poland, the Treaty of Wolfsburg) takes place, but I felt like the backstory needed some polishing and nuance.

Modern Prussia is stuck somewhere between a semi-absolute monarchy (effectively a replacement for the General Secretary - though the King rarely exercises his power), a military dictatorship (the military largely stays out of politics as well) and a mildly corrupt - if functioning - democracy (the 'Socialist Royalists' are a pretty weird idea, if I'm honest. If anything, a market-friendly CDU-type would be in charge, thanks to the DDR's high degree of social conservatism and Prussia's need to distance itself from any form of socialism). Think Thailand, mixed with the Weimar Republic and the German Empire under Frederich III.

The Prussians idolize many of the anti-fascist and communist resistance members (the White Rose movement, July 20 Plotters, the Freikorps and the hundreds of dissidents who were targeted by the Stasi by the DDR) from German history, while also standing in firm opposition to the 'Americanised' democracy of the old West, claiming to be the heirs to the Weimar Republic, the Frankfurt Parliament and the Kaiserreich. Any fascist/natsoc and communist parties are banned, while those that associate with the movements are put under a great amount of social pressure and surveillance (ironic, I know, but the Prussians had to work with what they had...).

Regular street battles between the police, neo-Nazis, a revived Antifaschistische Aktion/Red Army Faction/Kampfgruppen LARPers are a regular feature in Berlin. Prussia is one of Europe's major industrial powers, having recovered what they could from the nuked cities (Halle Neustadt has taken over much of the old nuked, neighbouring city) built much of their heavy industry from scratch and an unlikely source of consumer electronics, thanks to the survival of factories in Strassfurt, Berlin and Teltow. Its relations with the southern states of Saxony and Weimar are cordial, thanks to the surviving universities in the latter and surviving industry (even if Karl Marx Stadt is still outwardly socialist - think of Saxony as the Belarus to Prussia's Russia) in the former.

I'm running with the theory that most regimes tend to use the state systems that came before them. Like how Russia merely replaced the Tsar with an all powerful General-Secretary, only to be replaced with an oligarch in turn. So Prussia would be a flawed democracy at best. Years of martial law and military rule would only make restoring a liberal democracy harder. Because the public remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis and East German regime, the government doesn't overextend itself that often.

West Berlin gets this reputation of being a progressive mecca and a thorn in the side of the mostly-conservative establishment. Conscription's still on the books, though there is an option for civil service. Said civil service no longer comes with the government-backed discrimination that it did in the East, but the stigma might still be there on a social level.

TL;DR the basic theme I want to have for the Prussia page is "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I also threw together a strike map some months back, which may help with figuring out what cities survive in the DDR and what doesn't. I used both the canon Prussia article with whatever other Cold War-era resources I could find.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Considering how long it takes me to research and reply to things and be relatively calm about it, can't judge you.

DD, that is more or less the idea of a review - adding to an article to make it better/more plausible, or removing parts that aren't, changing as little as possible. Your goal is sound.

I would say that the GDR leadership mostly ends up dead in riots, by Soviet forces, etc. Not so much suicide or imprisoned. Maybe have some stuck in their bunkers for a few months, might be funny.

Neubrandenburg would likely be ok, I think, though it looks like we should add Schwerin and Cottbus to the strikes. Doesn't really change much.

Louis Ferdinand was probably in Bremen at DD, where his grandson was attending school.

Truthfully, we can't place any of the family for sure in Berlin, though it is likely that one was.

Can't see the two sides getting together, at least right away. WB is designed, somewhat, by 1983 to last in a siege - and they are walled in, so relatively secure with little reason to come out. They'll get together eventually, mind.

About right on the government, I think, though the Royal Socialist party is more possible than you think. Same logic as the socialist parties in Scandinavia. See no reason for them to want anything to do with the old Weimar Republic, mind.

No way there is battles in the street. Anyone trying that would get shut down right away by soldiers.

About right on the liberal democracy and West Berlin.

Have a look at the map on the Germany article for strikes, etc.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Just about anywhere that a base is hit, the city it is beside/in/against is gone. I would say combine the two strike lists, and remove the surviving city part.

Stendal would explain some things - that area is where we really lack anything organized near the border, compared to other parts. A near-intact division would explain that well.

Poznan isn't the only major city to survive in Poland.

I would adjust the part about Christian-Sigismund changed to having him survive in West Berlin, and rest assumed dead in the West. There's no record of them being imprisoned anywhere.

Radio transmissions should be made "directed" as well, at least in the early years.

Probably should adjust a lot of the first contact things, too.

Lordganon (talk) 11:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

A lot of East German military bases aren't like American ones, with them being so dangerously close to cities. I 'did the math' for all these bases and cities in nukemap, assuming that the former were hit one or two low-yield nukes (anything below between a 100-200 kt, as is seemingly standard for both NATO/WP military bases). The city of Cottbus is arguably the safest bet, as the airbase of the same name lies some distance (approx. 25 km - roughly the same distance between Berlin and Strausberg) away from the city proper. The other cities would either be outright destroyed (Strausberg) or would suffer minor-to-substantial (but not enough to wipe out the city) damage from shockwaves and fires (Zossen).

If it weren't for Wunsdorf (erroneously labelled as Zossen, which is just the nearby town) getting nuked, I planned to have it become some sort of 'Little Moscow', a hub for Prussia's substantial Russian-speaking community outside of Stendal or Berlin.

I'm yet to touch the history section, as that'll require some time to plan. I'll integrate the surviving cities/bases things into whatever section might deserve a mention of them (i.e. Halle-Neustad for its industry and clean-up of the old city, Stendal being a major army base, Wolgast for its shipyards).

First contact will be cleaned out, and will probably be done some years before the original article. Contact with North Germany and the other ex-DDR statelets (Thuringia, Saxony) will probably happen in the late 1980s, especially for the latter two.

Also, while I'm here, I checked the talk page for Weimar/Thuringia and the author said that he intended to have Weimar and Berlin unify under the Prussian banner at some point in the 'near future'. Can I get the go-ahead on that? Thuringia has major universities, some leftover tech hubs (much of the DDR's non-heavy industry - namely chemicals, electronics, vehicle production - were very much 'in the sticks' and wouldn't get hit at all. Nuking a village that just so happens to contain a TV factory is a bit of a waste). Saxony probably wouldn't want to unify due to it being effectively a hold-out of the old DDR.

Once I've sorted out RL stuff, I'll get to working on the rest of the page ASAP.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Mal3ssio97 has been making extensive updates to Sicily and discussing them on Discord, but it hasn't been posted here yet. Benkarnell (talk) 18:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't he have done that BEFORE doing all these edits? Also, I think it's fair that all change discussions should stick to this talk page and not be divided into too many places. SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it should have been posted here earlier. Benkarnell (talk) 03:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, i just updated my changes on discord because there is where we talk everybody and where we consult each other, i apologize if i didn't do that before or do as Sigma said, but i can do it right now if you want. Mal3ssio97 00:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC) 17/01/21

It would be helpful to everyone if you could summarize here the changes that you have made. Benkarnell (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Here's a list of what i added in the article about Sicily (Italian Republic for me) :

• In this new version the regional government is not tappled or overthrow, but is forced due to superior events to allied themselves with the Cosa Nostra Clans of Palermo.

• The remnants of the clans and those in Eastern Sicily (Not with Cosa Nostra) would collaborate and assist the regional government against the more cruel and violent cosca of the Corleonesi, headed by Totò Riina.

• The Clans that did allied themselves with the government would see their members being given amnysty and the bosses would enter the real political life this time and legally.

• AFB Base of Sigonella would be given to the Italian Armed Forces stationed in the island and to the central government, in return the US personeel will be given Italian citizenship and to live in Italy, this will be extended later on to every NATO or US base encountered.

• The Corleonesi and Riina would be arrested under the charges of multiple homicides and other crimes related to his activites, there will be a maxi trail in Palermo where every main member of the clan would be processed, the propreties and anything of value frozen and seized by the government.

• Between 1985 and 1991 many people, mainly those who did fight against the Mafia before Doomsday would fled the Island, included the Judges Falcone and Borsellino, among many others.

• A new and stable government will be created by 1986, mainly composed by the old members of the regional governments but also new faces from the Mafia, mainly in charge of the economy.

• Between 1988 and 1990 the Sicilian military would oversee the reclamation of the Italian Peninsula up until the River Arno, in 1990 it would sign off a peace treaty with Tuscany, allowing to keep Southern Tuscany, but in returing giving it numerous concessions, among it autonomy and free navigation of the river.

• The government in 1989 would declare the Italian Republic, called also South Italy, it will comprise all of Central and Southern Italy, including Sardinia and Sicily.

• Palermo would since 1983 keep radio communications with Sardinia, Malta, various Italian cities, Tunisia and Libya up until the 1990s, unknowing how is the world in diserray.

• In 1991 the republic would recive the visit of the Australian Benjamin Franklin and the Portughese Abacorza Submarine, entering relationship with Austalia and Portugal, Italy will also send a submarine with the duo up until the Suez Canal.

• In the 90s the government would spend a lot of money to stabilizing and modernizing the poorest parts of Italy or those remain afflicted by the various events before 1983 Doomsday, like the Irpinia Earthquake.

• The government would liberalize much of the suviving economy in order to stimulate it, regulate old and new taxes, legalize prostitution and the use of light and later heavy drugs under stricht state regulations (Like Portugal), creating a tourism based on drugs, but also everyone can make of them.

• The economy of the republic would in many way look like that of the United States, Singapore, South Korea and Japan, where large private companies would hold monopolies over certain sectors.

• Speaking of his government Italy will be a semi presidential republic with a dominant party system like it was Italy before Doomsday and an Illiberal Democracy like Hunghary or Serbia.

Mal3ssio97 00:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Wasn't Silicy a Mafia rogue state responsable for wars and shady financing to totalitarism in this timeline? Also the old flag was better looking.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 06:00, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

No, or at last Sicily will become a autoritarian regime in 2002 - 2003, before it was an illiberal democracy or a single party dominant democracy, take for example Hungary in modern times or Mexico during the cold war.

Even if it looks cool to you is not the correct flag, that was the flag of Sicily, the island and it didn't make sense when Palermo control almost all central Italy and all southern Italy. Mal3ssio97 22:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

The Mafia is pragmatic, practical and evolving at every historical event, with Doomsday the Sicilian regional government would struggle to keep Sicily afloat and also with the fear that different factions of Cosa Nostra might attempt to seize control for themselves, thus creating revolts and a possible civil war on the island. In order to avoid this, the government will contact the surviving clans of the Second Mafia War and also those of Eastern Sicily, outside of Cosa Nostra, the clans will ally themselves with the government to take off Totò Riina and his clan of Corleonesi.

In return, the government will offer amnesty to any clan that will side with them and that will help to keep Sicily with a somewhat level of stability for the time being. And no, your typical boss in the 80s might have been rural and violent, in his country house eating Arancini, but these men were businessmen, they control the public infrastructure of the island, have a say in every political aspect of the island and many of them were themselves local politicians or had agreements with right-wing parties to keep a status quo, corrupting officials and choosing their favourite candidate of the right party.

Like i said earlier all of this will change, they will become clean citizens, they will have much more in common with nowadays Mafia clans who control companies or that are CEOs in some important company or that control the drug market. After the unification of Italy in 1989, the government will sell much of the pre-war public infrastructures to private companies, now controlled by the ex-mafia bosses, like i already write on the page companies will even arrive to have entire monopolies on certain sectors or have few competitions (Like the economical situation in the United States or Japan with the Zaibatsu system.), expanding into foreign markets that aren’t developed like that of Southern France or that are highly developed and eager to trade with other nations, thus generating a huge amount of wealth with the exportation of goods and services. This will also affect the liberalization and legalization of drugs and brothels once more, in this way clans that were associated with the drugs’ business will be able to sell them to the public in complete legality, creating a drug tourism in the following years, as it happens with the Netherlands in Europe.

Here the old bosses will become politicians, and the old political class will not be removed up either, Cosa Nostra was able to rise to power that they never achieved thanks to them, the current dominant party of Italy in 1983 used the Mafia to buy votes and make sure that no one will vote for left-wing or anti mafia parties. they will stay and become parts of the predecessor of the current political class in the Republic of the Two Sicilies. Mal3ssio97 22:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Here my general summory of the Two Sicilies:

The Republic of the Two Sicilies (Italian: Repubblica delle Due Sicilie). Or as is simply called Repubblica Meridionale is a unitary republic that controls the island of Sicily and mainland Italy up to the northern edges of the former region of Lazio, Umbria and Marche. Since the second Sicilian War the republic has changed a lot, entering into diplomatic relations with the other Italian states.

The Sicilian Republic was born out of the cooperation between the regional authorities and the gentlemen of the clans of Palermo and that of Eastern Sicily, giving born to a very singular and peculiar state.

The story of the republic started with Doomsday. The 25 September of 1983 the world would be shaken by the atomic bombs of Third World War, in Sicily the regional government would struggle to keep Sicily afloat and also with the fear that different factions of Cosa Nostra might attempt to seize control for themselves, thus creating revolts and a possible civil war on the island. In order to avoid this, the government contacted the surviving clans of the Second Mafia War and also those of Eastern Sicily, outside of Cosa Nostra, the clans will ally themselves with the government to take off Totò Riina and his clan of Corleonesi.

In return, the government will offer amnesty to any clan that will side with them and that will help to keep Sicily with a somewhat level of stability for the time being.

With the amnesty, they become clean citizens, free to engage in politics or in the economical market openly. After the unification of Italy in 1989, the government will sell much of the pre-war public infrastructures to private companies, now controlled by the ex-mafia bosses, certain companies will even arrive to have entire monopolies on certain sectors or have few competitions (Like the economical situation in the United States or Japan with the Zaibatsu system.), anx expanding into foreign markets that aren’t developed like that of Southern France or that are highly developed and eager to trade with other nations, thus generating a huge amount of wealth with the exportation of goods and services.

This will also affect the liberalization and legalization of drugs and brothels once more, in this way clans that were associated with the drugs’ business will be able to sell them to the public in complete legality, creating a drug tourism in the following years, after the liberalization in the early 90s.

The republic would change in the early 2000s, specifically in 2002 when the politician Paolo De Stefano, head of the Fiamma Tricolore party, a nationalistic and right-wing party would manage to win the national elections, thanks to his pro-Italian and nationalistic platform, which called for the proper reunification of Italy under a new social order and for freeing their brothers and sisters in Northern Italy, under 'Swiss imperialism'. Tricolour Flame manage to win the presidential elections thanks to the 'softness and diplomatic approach' of the Liberal Party, heir of the deceased Democrazia Cristiana, headed by the ex-bosses of Cosa Nostra and other centre-right politicians, supported by various other political organizations.

In the following years De Stefano and his Tricolour Flame would manage to establish a regime much more in line to that of a dictatorship, with the elimination of several concessions and rights like the autonomy of Southern Tuscany, the abolition of the right to speech and to strike, the elimination of several private broadcasting companies not in line with the party's view and the adoption of elements inspired by the fascism (Like self sufficiency and campaign that promote the increase of newbabies and the creation of new families and so on). In 2004 the regime will get himself involved in the Alboran War, where it supported the Francoist Spanish State, a state created around the port of Mercia and for strengthen his position in the Strait of Gibraltar and in the Balearic Islands after their occupation the last year, during the same year it would occupy the island of Sardinia due to disagreements about the creation of a Sicilian naval base on the island.

And also due to the caos in Tunisia the Sicilians were able of establishing a client state there, helping Zine Ben Ali to gain power and to establish a dictatorship, this allowed the Sicilians to control economically the country and to establish a base on the Cape Bon peninsula. In 2007 due to the active hostility of the republic the European community would form the Atlantic Defense Community, in order to deterrence any future Sicilian expansion, but in 2010 war would break out between Sicily and Greece, over the several air space violations of both countries in the Strait of Otranto, the war would end in 2011 after the lost of Sardinia, Southern Tuscany and parts of Apulia. Several months after the end of the war the armed forces, with the support of the Liberal Party and other factors would stage a coup d'etat against Paolo De Stefano and his regime, after the coup the armed forces in cooperation with the Liberal Party ruled the county until spring of 2012, when national elections would resume and saw the victory of the coalition 'Alliance for Freedoms', headed by the Liberal Party and other parties.

Since 2014 the territories hold by the League of Nations and the Italian Peninsular Alliance were given back to Palermo, as a sign of good will and appeasement by the League of Nations, in 2018 the LoN Mandate of Salento was given back to Sicily. Mal3ssio97 22:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm actually really impressed with what you've put together here. You managed to keep most of the basic chronology in place while really fleshing Sicily out into something that feels more alive and believable, less of a caricatured villain. I especially like the story of the state's new foundation, how some families used the government to go after rivals - it uses the real history of the mafia and avoids painting them as a monolith. I'll try to have more detailed comments later, but in general this is a very good re-write that manages to leave most other pages intact (while also advancing the events forward to 2021). False Dmitri (talk) 19:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Even if we argued a lot about direction and how much to scrap and how much to keep, I am very happy with how this turned out, Alessio. Keep it up. This is the kind of rewrite I like.              Deadly State of Mind Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  19:25, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Greece

Greece is a big topic. I'm planning to start a pretty deep and wide-ranging rewrite. I'm still in contact with the original writer, User:Mr.Xeight, and we're talking about some of the problems both with his original ideas and how they developed after he left the wiki. Some of the problems can be seen in the way that its writing developed. To briefly summarize how Greece got to be how it is:

1. Mr.Xeight offered his original idea: Greece as a Byzantine revivalist state that conquers all its neighbors and creates a new monarchy. This archived discussion, "New Lands for the Hungry UL", is a good illustration of his original mindset.
2. Other editors workshopped those ideas so that Greece became less powerful, a loosely-governed confederation of survivor states. Its territory expanded, but only because some of those states, in particular the islands, were able to extend help to the people suffering on the opposite shores. And then the League of Nations gave Greece "mandate" control over some other areas.
3. At this point, Mr.Xeight left.
4. A couple of other editors adopted the page and began to flesh it out, notably without marking it as a proposal again.
5. By the time they were done, Greece had become... a Byzantine revivalist state that conquered all its neighbors and created a new monarchy. The idea of expansion happening in small pieces and largely through the LoN was largely dropped.

After a lengthy discussion with Mr.Xeight off site, I have a basic plan for how to make changes to make Greece more realistic. Roughly, here they are:

• The idea of a confederation of small states that slowly reunites will be kept, but the goal will be the recreation of the Hellenic Republic rather than any kind of monarchy.
• The Peloponnese will still be a dictatorship, but Golden Dawn's role will be removed. That was a rather anachronistic element to put into the TL, because Golden Dawn in the 1980s was an irrelevant fringe movement and there are more interesting things that can be done with the region. This is Mr.Xeight's wish for the region - I actually argued that fringe movements have a chance to flourish in a post-apocalypse environment; but he really wants them gone.
• Greek expansion onto some areas of the Turkish coast will occur in roughly similar fashion: beginning as a humanitarian effort that slowly evolves into territorial control. But the expansion onto the African continent is wholly unrealistic. A new history would have to be written for Libya as well as Egypt and the Suez Canal. There's really no justifiable reason for Greece to have those territories in TTL - a shattered, targeted nation expanding into nations that were never targeted.
• The broad timeline of wars with Sicily will be maintained, but reinterpreted somewhat in light of the revisions being made both to Greece and to Sicily.
• Cyprus needs a rewrite to take into account the ethnic and cultural complexity of the place. It is unlikely to end up as Greek territory, but may be an ally. But things are going to get ugly there in the Aftermath period.
• With Istanbul destroyed, the Greeks will at some point try to establish a station there and claim it together with the Hellespont, but this remains a small presence today rather than a large-scale occupation of the whole region of Turkish Thrace.

Anyway, if this does go forward it will be a very big undertaking and probably take a long time and affect many pages. Personally I think it would be worth it, and luckily we have the blessing of the original author. (I can post screenshots if need be.) I hope we can discuss changes and ramifications as a group. Benkarnell (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Just saying that Cyprus would have no other choice but to reunify into a single state in those sort of times (even after it gets ugly as you say), there's just no way to continue the war between them without economic ressources and human cost, they can't afford to, they don't have any support left of Greece and Turkey to fight. They'd have to create a New Cyprus and a new joint identity, return to a pre-1960s Cyprus in terms of demography (before all the troubles lead to Greek-only areas and Turkish-only areas). But yeah, Greece was written like a sort of Greater Greece fan fiction meant to glorify one chauvinistic boy fantasy. I wonder what would happen to Gaddafi and Sissi?

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well for Ghaddafi that all depends if he manage to continute to hold control of Libya, and for Al-Sisi if the war with Israel would still happen, and by consequence the destruction of Cairo, as for Libya there are three options; A united Libya under Ghaddafi, a united democratic Libya that overthorw him after a revolution, or a balkanized Libya similar how it is now. Also a united Libya can be the supplier of oil for Southern Europe, mainly Italy and Greece, and being an important African nation as well. Mal3ssio97 15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I feel like Gaddafi will be able to hold on to power for many years, as he did in OTL. Whether he is still there now will depend on how events develop. Benkarnell (talk) 16:17, 19 February 2021 (UTC) - my mind has changed on this, see below. I think that we should keep the storyline in which Gaddafi is overthrown in 1984. - False Dmitri (talk) 15:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I have written a modified proposal for Greece, currently at User:False Dmitri/sandbox. It mostly does what I said in the bulleted list above. There's a lot to it, it's a big and complex topic. And if the changes are accepted, that will entail lots of further changes: to the individual Greek states, to Egypt, and especially to Libya. With the exception of those countries, I tried to keep Greece's relationship with other countries the same, so that Greece can leave the same "footprint" in the timeline and we can avoid too many cascading changes. Some other things to note:

• The Hellenic Republic now serves as both one of the states, and as the national government. The idea is asymmetric federalism. I think it's a reasonable approach for the country to take, but it also just intrinsically appeals to me.
• I kept the ethnic cleansing of Cyprus, followed by its joining Greece as an autonomous state. No doubt some of its details will need to be re-written to take into account the island's complex history and demographics, but this seems to be a plausible if tragic end result.
• The original version had a lovely new capital being built on the island of Skyros. This seems unlikely to me on such an inconveniently tiny island, so I replaced that with a move to Chalcis. The former capital territory of Skyros then becomes an autonomous state.
• The last history written for Greece was 2012, when it invaded and occupied southern Albania. This had the same vibe as much of the rest of the history - the Greeks conquered and colonized a bunch of Muslims, who for whatever reason were happy and grateful for it - but instead of replacing this storyline, I kept it and added consequences for Greece diplomatically.

I'm happy with how this has come along, and I hope the group likes the general direction of the changes. False Dmitri (talk) 17:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Like i said on discord i fully support this review and the review of any article influenced by the old Greece, it's impossible that Greece would be able to go full Imperatioo Restorii in the span of merley 30 years, is stupid. Mal3ssio97 21:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Two months after I started the discussion, two weeks after I wrote my draft. I'll copy it over to the main Greece page soon, but that won't be the end of the process. If this version is accepted, then there will be a lot of follow-up work:

• Each of the Greek states will have to be brought into harmony with the changes - this won't actually be that hard, I don't think. The majority of what's there can stay, just removing some of the neo-Byzantine fluff.
  • Morea is probably the one to undergo the most changes, but fortunately its article is the least detailed of the whole set.
  • The North African states would have to be marked obsolete since they're being completely retconned. Which means:
• Egypt's history will need a more serious adjustment, probably necessitating a second Review. I would advise keeping as much the same as possible, including Cairo getting destroyed and maybe even a breakaway state in the Delta, at least temporarily. I'm willing to do some writing to sort out those details.
• Libya's history will need an even more serious rewrite. I'm convinced that the country will collapse, as currently stated, and I don't actually see any real need to change that part of the story, namely a military coup in 1984 followed by civil war. (What's unrealistic is that a random Greek movement with no weapons then sailed over in their fishing boats and conquered the country.) It may be that division in three parts (Cyrenaica, Tripolitania, Fezzan) is the likeliest long-term outcome for Libya.
• Albania would need mostly minor adjustments. I tried hard to write the new version in a way that kept the current Albania content intact. Most of the changes would be in the form of updates to show its recent history.
• I am also happy to be the one to clean up other scattered references to overridden Greece-related history, namely the monarchy and conquests in North Africa. That will be tedious but not too difficult.
• Accounts of close diplomatic and trade relations between Greece and the Algerian cities, and Greece and the Black Sea nations, are unproblematic and don't need any changes.
• Mr.Xeight also requested changes to some of the Macedonia-related content, in particular its occupation of Greek land north of Chalkidiki. I did not do anything with that mostly because it would involve a whole other collection of pages that would need rewriting. But he has a point that the process that went into writing Macedonia was less than ideal... eleven years ago. You can see for yourself how un-collaborative and downright nasty it all was, and it probably deserves a new look in a new decade.

- False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

First: Considering that myself and Oer are the ones (primarily) who helped finish things up on at least the sub articles, something about this at the start should have been said to us. Not bloody happy about that, and it's not the first time this has happened, despite rules or manners. For the record, I think you exaggerate the nation as we (and Xeight, since it did get approved by him and community!) laid it out, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Quite frankly, even though you discussed it with Xeight, I have to question just how much of that is his opinion, and how much is you adding to it, since you don't differentiate between the two all that much Doesn't matter much, but I don't like it either way.

I imagine parts of this you'll hate, some you'll like, and others will be "huh? - like normal for us, lol.

Restoring the Republic as a goal? You'd have a hard time pressing that as a goal in modern Greece otl, let alone here. Unifying Greece period, fine. Monarchy or not is a much more iffy factor, and if even one of the statelets has such a thing going on, you have to deal with it, be it at least as hereditary governors, or the like. At the very least, looking at the... very poorly done and somewhat corrupt referendums in the early 1970s, especially the 1973 one, the two areas that were close, despite the net results, are the Peloponnese area, and the Thrace/Macedonia area, with one region in each actually voting against a republic outright. Most of the votes for a republic, truthfully, were in the Athens Metro (40% of the population in the early 1970s, and roughly 35% in the early 1980s) and Crete. Taking out Athens by itself at least makes the referendum close. You see a similar result in most of these countries in Europe that flipped in the last century and a bit - corrupt or flawed referendum, with the monarchy side having little to know ability to do anything in it, and then barred from the country. Italy is another example.

The Peloponnese being under something like Golden Dawn makes a ton of sense. That area and the region around Mount Athos and towards Thrace are where such groups always do well, often getting near to surpassing 10-15% of the vote. Golden Dawn in the last decade is the highest of these, true, but not by much. More nationalistic parties like them do better in the Peloponnese, and the more religion based ones do better in the north, but they both do well in the other area too. (Comparatively, the communists do the same in the Athens Metro, Crete, and east-central Greece) Most of these parties, however, are temporary movements based around one figure or another, and none have lasted long even if they aren't. Little as Golden Dawn would have been in the early 1980s, they are probably the only organized group of their inkling in the area at the time, and them taking some semblance of control does make sense. The main political parties aren't based here, and their leadership more or less gone in Athens... recipe for disaster, or the extremists taking control.

Xeight may want them gone, and that may work long-term, but in the short term, not going to happen. There's just too many people of that direction there. As you note, Ben, this is their chance to shine/flourish. Heck, should he have control, Michaloliakos going as far as to crown himself something makes sense given his known personality and political goals. And, given things, "Despot" would be a far better choice than anything else.

The Egypt "expansion" is a combination of mandates, relatively neutral powers, and desires of the locals to have nothing to do with "Cairo." By all rights, the locals would have only the Alexandria area, but the Canal part comes into play because of local issues.

After DD, the Egyptian government teeters on for a little bit, before falling in a coup to the Muslim Brotherhood. When combined with the general mood (and, this is already going on, just made far worse) the coup leads to a ton of anti-Copt and anti-outsider backlash. Now, in otl modern times, the population of Copts in Egypt is 5-20 million, or 5-20% of the population. This is considered in many places to be an intentionally lowered figure, with the true number being anywhere from 25-40 million - we really have no idea, given how it is conducted. Given the bias of the government, and the obvious discrimination against them, no way to tell what it actually is. Heck, they don't even do the census in this regard by region, so we have no idea there. Though, given it is where the church head is located, it stands to reason that the largest number would likely be in the Alexandria area. Much the same logic exists for them fleeing there, both before and after the Israeli war atl. Heck, otl Egypt has only had a single token Copt governor, despite supposed rights from the government, and that was an appointed position off in the south somewhere for a very short period.

Add to the chaos in Egypt that they will have to change crops over from commercial to food (at least to some degree), and deal with fluctuations of the Nile. Some will go hungry.

Now, I can see the Brotherhood government wanting to get rid of this area, but... probably not going to be their priority, and a harder (supposedly) nut to crack than Israel, for somewhat obvious reasons. Israel would have gone, most likely, under a period of military rule (with the government largely gone, or regrouping, someone has to take control) and then joint rule with government remnants. Between the Israeli leadership vacuum, and the Palestinian leadership facing a similar fate in many ways, and the overall (military) situation, you're see some kind of agreement made/forced with the military. Not even going to begin to speculate on its exact nature (not wanting to open that can of worms) other than inducting the Palestinians into the nation somehow.

Now, remember: Palestinians have been screwed over by the local Arab governments at this point nearly as much as the Israelis. Promises made, not kept, opportunities not taken, land not given, states not set up, etc. A big list, really. Heck, Israel itself is on better terms by 1983 with a couple of them than the Palestinians are.

So, however the exact details are... you have Israeli troops, backed by Palestinian militia and possibly some troops from Jordan, facing the large Egyptian "conscript" army at the border. No matter how many people die or starve in Egypt, they will be outnumbered. the Israeli leadership isn't stupid - they can see the writing on that one. So, they nuke Cairo, removing the leadership there, and, since they time it well, screwing with the Nile and radiating the silt temporarily... and screwing with the crops downriver, at least somewhat. Maybe add smaller strikes on the military field headquarters too, though that probably isn't needed, and works better if the generals are the ones that start the war. Either way, the resulting leadership vacuum results in some of the troops attacking, but most pulling back towards Cairo, and into the resulting Civil War. I foresee a lot of dead this way, for a variety of reasons, and them being too busy to go after the Copts or Israel for a long time. This results in the Egypt state based out of more to the south as, or similar to, we have atl right now.

The Israelis, of course, take advantage of this, and crush those that are left, advancing to the canal. Not only is the land not effected by radiation, compared to their own lands, but the canal itself offers a far better defensive position. I'd also bet on them keeping anything organized from appearing on the other side of it, as well, since it would be to their benefit. This, combined with other things, screws up the canal, leading to later LoN work there.

Now, the Copts in Alexandria.. they will likely take advantage to seize part of the Delta. Can't blame them. They'd be radicalized by this point, with good reason. And overcrowded. By this point, I see Greek traders working their way out of the islands, and finding them. As they are not Muslims, overall, and given the Greek history in the city, I see them being treated fairly well. Especially since they'd be in need of food and other things, and the Greek Islands export a lot, so... works well. Now, they're not going to join the Confederation that forms in this era. But them allying with it does make sense. When the Federation forms, maybe some sort of associated status, given events near the canal.

The Canal itself.... as noted, the LoN will eventually get involved here, by need. The whole world benefits by having it open, but it is spilt between the Israelis on one side, and (sort of, as noted above why) the Egyptian government on the other, with little practical control on the west side.

For obvious reasons, neither Egypt or Israel will tolerate the other being in control, nor would Egypt want the Copts there... and the Israelis probably aren't going to be happy about that, either. That results in the LoN mandate, as noted, over the areas west of the canal and parts of the eastern Delta.

The LoN itself really doesn't have the means on its own the police/administrate the area, so someone has to do it. Look at the region... who has any means to do so, and is reasonably neutral? Honestly, the only answer is probably Greece at this point. So, the net mandate is government by them, in concert with whatever locals are there, supervised by an LoN official of some sort. More or less like the otl LoN mandates were. This results in the current "Kemet" state spilt into the Coptic "Kemet" out of Alexandria, and a Greek-governed "Suez" out of the Canal Area. Currently, this is more or less merged together, which is flawed, admittedly.

Copts still support the Greek cause in the Second Sicilian War, which changes little, since they are technically allied, and Sicilian aggression is a threat in their direction anyways.

As you note, Libya falling is going to happen. Too many things wrong there, and no international backing (heck, Sicily by this point may even be screwing with them on some level) will cause a collapse. The otl result from last decade is probably an improvement over how this would turn out. Now, from here, there is a lot of directions to go from there. The one that results in the smallest changes - the goal in any review, though many seem to have forgotten that fact - is putting a different "crown" in place and making them an "associated" or "allied" state of the Federation. There is a logic to this! I swear!

After the coup which he took power in, Gadhafi didn't exile or execute the Royal Family. Those who were in the country at the time were instead moved to a "walled villa" on the coast, and put under house arrest. My best guess as to why would be to not inflame the supported of the religious sect that they head into active opposition/revolt in Cyrenaica. As it is, they took it far better than I would have expected, for the noted reason, and to keep them alive.

Just before DD, in ~1982, their villa was sold from under them - Gadhafi seems to have somewhat forgotten them - and they moved into near-shacks on the beach near Tripoli. Note, too, that amidst all the attempts on him and his rule, a least one of the military attempts did have royal (in the east, Cyrenaica) backing, though only from a couple of princes that were outside of Libya in 1969... one of which ended up getting caught and imprisoned for decades. Even in modern otl times, there is a lot of support for them in this region, and one of the princes is even part of the head(s) of the eastern government. In many ways, this was even more prevalent in the past. Their religious movement has been at the forefront of resistance to Gadhafi in the east for pretty much his entire rule, in fact. As a side note, they only took over all of Libya with Allied support, and it was, considering where their later overthrow came from, a bad idea. Heck, the new Libyan "government" even adopted their symbols for the country! Have a look into their order, interesting history read.

Given his inattention of them, I don't see Gadhafi moving against them with DD. It certainly was not outside pressure that caused them to be ignored otl, after all. Heck, he cared so little not long after this that he signed off on them leaving the country. Of curse, had they fled earlier... bet on death.

So, when the ball really drops in Libya, they do have the supporters to flee to, and probably some nearby they can count on. If nothing else, they are on the coast, so they can get boats to flee in, which they'd know how to use. They'd have their pick of cities in Cyrenaica to go to and with some weaponry take over. Nothing too big, and likely one of the cities where they have more support. Guess would be Bayda.

From there, they would be able to expand some, but... military matters would prevent much further, with military units in control over more of the region. Around the same time as Alexandria, you'd see Greek ships getting here. I imagine the reception in Bayda would be better than elsewhere, and they would need arms, so... works well. Greek industry is, based on spread in Greece itself, better off than most, so they can to some degree meet that need. They'd also be more prone, from Morea, to arm the royals anyway. Eventually, this would probably get them shaky control of the region. Have them, from there, go the same route as Kemet. Given past events I rather doubt there would be much interest in going past Sirte, which I foresee as being an extreme hotbed of pro-Gadhafi forces and too hard to take/destroy.

Most of Fezzan would end up reverting to nomads and warlords, with Tripolitania going to chaos. I would imagine it being some combination of Sicilian and Senussi backed groups, jockeying for balance, not actively intervening since it would start a war... and when Sicilian forces do move, it helps start the Second Sicily War.

Far as I'm concerned, Sicily doesn't really need edits. I'm willing to listen - and a long post is coming on it - but far as I'm seeing right now, we have an Italian nationalist offended by some of it, and it needs to be looked at in that light. There's a reason we've always had the "local" rule unofficially in place.

You're wrong about Cyprus. Some details about it being added are a must, but the rest has long been covered. The only reason for the island to be as it is otl is Turkey intervened, quite frankly - why they didn't just spilt the island between Greece and Turkey instead of trying independence originally I'll never understand - but the continued presence of those troops is the problem. As Caer established, the army commanders that took over the southern coast of Anatolia were in charge of these troops, and recalled them to the mainland to bring order to it, which is within their ability and command structure. They'd bring what Turkish civilians they could with them, probably most. The strikes on the British bases would not hurt/help either side, in the end.

The lack of these troops and civilians, and the Greeks will take over fairly easily. That they would join up with a Greek state is a given, honestly. They'd do it otl if they could.

Calling Thrace at the two choke points and the islands in between "large scale" is an exaggeration. They claim the north side, and "control" it, but outside of a few pockets it is not "occupied" or "administered." You're going to see punitive expeditions in the region fairly often as the majority of it expands slowly, with Turkish arms being funneled in in recent years. A festering sore, but needed in their opinion.

The Hellenic Republic would be killed off at the head. We can place most of the leadership of both main parties in/around Athens at DD, and while Crete would no doubt be where it eventually regroups, it will take a long time. By the time they are able to exert much of anything, the idea of them being the national government is just not a realistic idea. They had little legitimacy at DD, and that just makes it worse. It's going to have to be part of a national confederation simply for that reason, with the other areas being separate parts, with just as much claim to be the official government.

The idea for the capital was always for it to be on all the islands in that area, spread out somewhat. Call it a lesson from DD.

The Greek state next to Albania has long held claim to the area, due to refugees and irredentist Greek attitudes towards the region(s) of Southern Albania. Even today a fairly large number of the people there are of such descent. That the "states" there are pariahs and rouge states... no one will complain much outside of Albania/Macedonia, who agreed to the move. Helps even more that the one statelet there joined the Federation.

Much as I hate to admit it, Macedonia taking over the immediate region of Thessaloniki makes some degree of sense, as the area is ruined and the Greek statelets have other problems. There's better non-ruined areas for a port, even in the north. But considering that Macedonian nationalists even otl claim the area, the move makes sense. Xeight may not like it, but the disputes between Macedonia and Greece over things like even the word Macedonia, it's likely to happen.

I do like your spilt for Mount Athos and the regions north of it to be separate. A oversight on the original work.

Think that covers more or less everything. May add if I rememeber more - been working on this on/off for a while.

Lordganon (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Without responding to all of this just yet, I did put some screenshots from our discussion at the bottom of Talk:Greece, the main differences that I had with MrXeight are that he tended to want even deeper changes than I do. So I didn't touch Macedonia, like I mentioned, and if you look at the draft I actually did not implement any real changes to Cyprus, other than get rid of some of the very questionable framing that tried to justify Greek actions at every turn. So my draft still has Cyprus unite with Greece.

(Edit: I made one other Cyprus-related change. The current version has the surviving British joining the Greeks to attack the Turks for no reason whatsoever. The revision removes this without specifying what the Brits did, but my plan is to simply have them flee, mainly to Malta. Mr.Xeight actually argued that they would be likelier to join the Turkish side... but it's too small a group to matter much, anyway.)

My version also still has Morea run by a hardcore nationalist movement, just without the Golden Dawn branding, which if you ask me is more than appropriate. Same with Mount Athos, I actually preserved the canonical history. The split (which I set as occurring in 2012) is an in-universe development since work was last done.

As far as demoting the Republic back down to just one member state, I find your points convincing; but the alternative should absolutely not be the Byzantine restorationist fantasy that we currently have. Though I did like one consequence of creating an asymmetrical federation: it allowed for federal reclamation projects in places like Central Greece and Thessaly. That may be something that can be recovered in a truly federal state, however; for example, making those areas federal territories (or generality lands, or what have you) that would eventually be raised to statehood. I can make changes to my draft and to my alternate map that would reflect this. An advantage will be that it requires less change to the Hellenic Republic state page.

And just in general, the overwhelming vibe of Greece is currently "nationalist fanboy fantasy, with some rationalizations sprinkled on top" - which is, in fact, precisely the process by which it was written. Virtuous Greece stumbling from conquest to conquest, until providentially it finds itself in possession of vast historically-Greek lands, all the residents of which are happy to be thus subjugated even while explicit cultural colonization commences. It's practically a textbook wank. It needs root-level changes because its roots are simply bad alternate history.

I'll have to look into some of your other ideas later, but those are some initial responses. False Dmitri (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

It's later. Again there's really no reason at all for Greece to be the one to benefit from collapse in Libya or Egypt... the only reason seems to be that Greece is the Mary Sue of the timeline and always comes out on top. The Greek state post-1983 has not ever reached the point where it could project its power even within its own territory. So how is it always acting as the prosperous hegemon when it comes to north Africa? If Suez was a disputed zone, the League of Nations is not going to just give it to a random neighboring country, especially one that has a history of, if not committing ethnic cleansing directly, then of being adjacent to it and benefiting from it (namely in Cyprus just before unification). The best and most probable solution in my mind would be some kind of multinational commission to run things, probably including Israel and Egypt and a handful of other Mediterranean and Red Sea/Indian Ocean nations. Maybe Greece could have a seat on that board. But there's no logical basis for Greece to just receive that territory, other than a desire to see the country "win".

And the same thing holds for the other pieces of Egypt and Libya. There are some very interesting stories to be told about those places, but "starving people seek help from Greeks and therefore get annexed" isn't it. That's not how things work, in this timeline or any other. Greece is in no position to help those areas, and even if they were, there's no reason for such a relationship to lead to anything beyond buying and selling. The fact that Greek people ruled those areas 2100 years earlier could not be less relevant. Those countries' histories need fleshing out, but I'd like to be able to do that without the gymnastics required to turn them into Greek states or satellites, or whatever. It's a bad idea that was conceived badly, and it will be better to just correct it and move on, rather than try and force it to work.

Final bit: the idea of a "dispersed capital" is interesting, but it's not at all what the current Greece page describes, which is a "New Athens" being constructed on Skyros. Dispersing the functions of the government to various islands is definitely interesting, but that too would require significant changes to what's currently written. - False Dmitri (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

If Greeks vote in favour of the Republic was because it was the king who let the dictatorship of the colonel being happening, in 1973 King Constantine II reluctenly supported the coup only to counter it after a while, that failed and he fled to Italy. This at the eyes of the Greeks showed that it was the King who endorsed the coup and let Greece become a dictatorship until the Invasion of Cyprus.

Also if you see the results of the referendum you will see that in every Greek region the republic won with a margin of 5 - 30%, depending on what region. The only region who voted for the monarchy are Laconia and Eastern Thrace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Greek_republic_referendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece

And we talked about Cyprus too, basically we decided that the UN Forces would join the Turkish forces in order to not be slaughter themselves by the Greek Cypriots, before 1983 North Cypus was federated into Turkey and it had a military force on the island, we expect that more Turkish military would arrive in the following weeks of Doomsday becuase Cyprus is a relative safe area.

About Sicily in real honesty i hate the idea of the original writers about the Mafia, the mafia is not romanticized in Italy and it will never be done again, thankfully. For me, if i had to rewrite Sicily without any stick to the lore i would say that the regional government, thanks to the caos of the apocalypse manage to arrest and detain the most powerful Bosses of Cosa Nostra and the other mafia of the island, this would cripple the organization and would set back and lay down for several years, but it will still exist. So yes, in my headcanon the unification would still happen, and the north would be divided between the Alpine controlled territories and the Italian Republic that controlled Central, Southern Italy and Sardinia.

One final thing, i'm not a nationalist, i was like in 2016, but now not anymore, i recognize how dumb i was back then for following a ideology that caused Italy to become a dictatorship and that bring to Italy only suffering and pain. Now i'm Europeanist and a federalist. Go check my profile. Alessio Mal3ssio97 00:03, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

To address the Cyprus thing, on Discord we discussed various options, including the above; but in my draft I decided to keep Cyprus as it was. The Turkish troops withdrew, the Greek Cypriots attacked, sad and tragic, but the Greek confederation then overlooked it and added Cyprus as a member. It's not the only possible route for the history, but it's not wholly implausible either; so it's not worth changing. False Dmitri (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

One final point that I'd like to make, and it's more of a macro-level pattern than something confined to one single article, like the monarchical restoration issue in the above section. You can see this pattern when you look at the stories of Greece and its neighbors.

Country	Damage	Result
Greece	4 strikes (5 in my draft)	Reunites, rebuilds the nation, gains territory.
Bulgaria	6 strikes	Reunites, rebuilds the nation.
Israel	13 strikes	Reunites, rebuilds the nation, gains territory.
Lebanon	4 strikes	Reunites, though details are mostly unwritten.
Cyprus	2 strikes	Near-total ethnic cleansing of the Turks, followed by annexation.
Albania	1 strike	Permanent collapse, fragmentation, partial colonization.
Egypt	1 strike (more in LG's suggestion above)	Collapse, fragmentation, and colonization, followed by a partial reunification.
Libya	0 strikes	Permanent collapse, fragmentation, and near-total colonization.
Syria	Many strikes	Permanent collapse and fragmentation.
Turkey	Many strikes	Collapse, fragmentation and partial colonization, followed by a slow, violent, and incomplete reunification.

As with the monarchs, any one of these outcomes might be justifiable, but the overall pattern is clear as can be. Even granting that the writers of the TL don't sit around hoping that Muslim nations "lose", there seems to be an implicit belief that the Muslim religion makes people bad at statecraft and government, while the Christian or Jewish religion makes people good at it. Correcting this implicit bias is another goal of this review. False Dmitri (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Really liking the changes there Ben. Much needed realism in keeping Greece out of North Africa and instead seeing it undergoing a slow but steady process of reunification, while at the same time grabbing lands it can hold off the Turkish Coast. A few of the paragraphs could do with some rewording but as far as the content goes I believe it to be a much more realistic take on Greek Expansion in the post-DD era. Impishly yours, Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 20:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Vainakhia (1983: Doomsday)

I found this page and I like it. Do you think it is better that the current Chechnya (1983: Doomsday) page? Didcot1 14:39, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

This was Nox20's proposal to replace Chechnya, as you can see in Talk:1983: Doomsday/Review2#Chechnya. Nox asked me in a message on Discord to withdraw his proposal, which is why this is marked Obsolete and the discussion is archived. False Dmitri (talk) 16:43, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Vainakhia is not withdrawn, in fact, Vainakhia is going to replace the page Chechnya. Ben, it was noticed by certain people, that not only in Chechnya, but in a lot of pages by Lordganon, there is "an undeniable pattern" of "pretty serious anti-Islam in many of the things that he wrote". You could say that Lordganon is a racist to some level, in my opinion, that is one more good reason that some of his work can be replaced, because racism is disgusting. It does not make any different if this is fictional or real life, you don't write racism and then try to defend it unless you have something what is seriously wrong. Nox20 (talk) 23:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Greece has the same problem, yes. Same with Egypt/Israel. It's systemic to this project to an extent, and to some of LG's contributions in particular. False Dmitri (talk) 01:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Then Lordganon should come here and explain it, because he now can't deny it. I think that he will just run away again because, he will not admit that he messed up badly. I am also interested to know why AnomalousDucky wrote similar things on his page. Would be nice that they explain why they make everything looking like we are just a hole where terrorists spawn and, why they are writing things to look like every Chechen is a radical terrorist who just want to kill people. Nox20 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

This seems to have stalled and Nox seems to no longer be contributing. However I think the review is still worthwhile. Problems with the original page on Chechnya include above all the role of radical islamism. OTL, this was very much a foreign import to Chechnya in the 90s, related to the geopolitical concerns of the decade. The original Chechnya article ignores all that and treats it as inevitable. The leaders that it names were in OTL authoritarian nationalists but not islamists, or even vocal anti-islamists. Their actions in the history don't seem to match the way they behaved in real life. I would strongly support a revision to correct these things, which do indeed seem to come from stereotypes rather than reality.

Nox's alternate version on the other hand is much too rosy. It follows some of the tropes that show up in many of the surviving micro-republics in the timeline. The community bands together as one, they do everything right, everyone is happy and prosperous and forgets about the world outside. I definitely like it as a blueprint for a post-apocalypse society in the Caucasus, but that overall feel would not be good.

I'd be willing to try writing a harmonization of the two. The basic chronology of the original without the islamism or the emirate, so a government that's authoritarian and unstable. Which is the most likely outcome given both the circumstances and the OTL history in the 90s. But then use Nox's proposal to structure the state's policy. This would make the two postwar leaders populist nationalists rather than islamists or "emirs". Restructuring society while drawing on the region's traditional culture. I think that would be an improvement over both versions, though it would still benefit from involvement by someone more familiar with the history than I am.

False Dmitri (talk) 01:49, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Salento LoN Protectorate

Hi guys, since i intend to review the article of Sicily, me and othe others had agree that the Lecce mandate was too much bias towards the Italians, so i rewrite it in my sandbox. Basically here after the initial 5 - 6 years of Greek administration both the LoN and the ADC agreed that the mandate should be over by now and in the same year Greece is forced to create a joint administration with Sicily, while at the same time removing Greek troops, LoN peacekeepers would take their place. I expanded the history of the mandate, his administration, defence and others.

Salento

Lecce Mal3ssio97 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Adeyemism

Ishe Adeyemi is a fictional person born before 1983. It's been our rule for a long time not to use anybody like this, since it essentially turns the timeline from Alternate History into something else; but this page was written before we were really following that rule (and it was only an unwritten rule until very recently, when we added it to the Guidelines). Anyway, here I'm announcing my intention to replace Adeyemism with something else. I'll be developing it side by side with my work on the History of ideas page. I'm trying to read more about African political thought, and philosophy more generally, to come up with a more authentic intellectual movement that can replace Adeyemism, something rooted in what was actually going on in African intellectual circles in the 80s and how it would realistically evolve after a nuclear war. So my goal is to replace Adeyemi, which to me is obviously necessary, but in the process to improve our work on the history of the WAU, which is a major world power that so far has fairly scanty treatment. False Dmitri (talk) 01:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Expansion of the idea does sound like a plan, though I was always under the impression that the name (and a couple others in similar boats) was approved as more of a temporary measure until someone could find a real one.

As it stands, may work better than you think, now. There's a writer named Tomi Adeyemi, born in the USA to Nigerian immigrants in 1993. No idea on their names, mind, but... her father is/was a doctor, so it's not impossible.

Lordganon (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I may have posted this Review too soon, because it will require a lot more reading before it has any kind of coherent counter-proposal. But the thought of Olusegun Oladipo and some of his colleagues is striking me as worth exploring. It insists on the need for local African ideas rather than imported ones, yet at the same time it also takes a critical stance toward African society and does not try to naively mine the past for ideas. I think his school of thought will be the most fruitful to explore, but my plan is not to have an "Oladipoism" or anything that's tied to one person. I want it to be a broad movement, centered in Nigeria but with influence and contributors from multiple countries. False Dmitri (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Scotland

No idea where to begin. The whole premise is pretty ridiculous. No sense of history or the political conditions were taken into account. Neither was the fact that a blast at the Leith Docks (which likely would hit off the coast and not on top of it) would also at a maximum lead to 100,000 casualties and 10,000 deaths and not lead to any more damage to the central govt buildings than broken windows and potential third degree burns for those unfortunate enough to be outside at the point (IF it hits Leith itself). It also fails to take into account the lack of a nuke to Glencorse Barracks or the fact that a 15kt bomb would struggle to destroy the various dockyards hit, let alone cause less than light damage to the surrounding towns. The only plausible thing here would be that the airbases would all be destroyed... but not all the aircraft.

Add to the fact that the HMS Dalriada, the naval reserve in Glasgow, and HMS Scotia both survive and Scotland descending into... whatever it is that has been written is frankly implausible.

The lack of any mention of the cities of Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee or Perth compounds this problem, with Aberdeen very easily able to take the lead in matters to the north, and an easy source of fuel for the struggling nation in the early days post-DD. Thankfully, after speaking with Ben, I am committed to preserving as much of the shape of Britain - so the Celtic Alliance will still exist, but frankly this would be the start of a major overhaul of the British Isles to add some realism to everything. Impishly yours, Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 20:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that part of the solution, if Scotland seems to have fared too badly given the list of strikes, is to simply add more strikes. 15kt won't do the job? Make it bigger. Add a few more cities, if they're justifiable. That list of targets is always being expanded as we add more fiery deaths to our dystopian hellscape.

That said, I can definitely get behind making changes to correct the often-haphazard way that the Britain content was put together. You might want to explore the contributions of Todetode. They had ideas similar to yours. Last year they submitted a huge amount of updated content, but when people didn't read it immediately they got angry, withdrew their proposals, and essentially vandalized all of their own work. But some of their ideas are still lying around, potentially useful.

You also ought to communicate these ideas with SigmaHero045, who is planning to write a lot of recent history for Britain, and whose plans would definitely be affected by any change to the lore.

Good luck with this. I probably won't be able to help much, it's really outside my areas of expertise (as Todetode learned to their frustration). False Dmitri (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thing is the current list of strikes matches up pretty well with the expected nuclear strikes that were both anticipated by Britain and were planned for by the Soviets. The Soviets had no plans to nuke any of the cities above the central belt of Scotland, so the current list of strikes does make sense. Adding more strikes would have the same effect of having no strikes in the sense that it would make it harder for the region to become part of the Celtic Alliance. With decent changes, and changing the reasoning behind the origins of the Celtic Alliance, we can still have some sort of alignment with what has currently been written. But again, Ireland does need to be looked at as Northern Ireland was dealt with pretty badly and that region would be a definite hotspot for chaos and ugliness. However, if spun right, it could be the impetus for closer relations between Ireland and Scotland and lead to the creation of the Celtic Alliance. And not to fear, adding chaos in Ireland will add with the whole dystopian hellscape vibe.

I'll have a look at Todetode's ideas, and have already messaged SigmaHero, hopefully he gets in touch with me and shares his thoughts and ideas on the situation. Thank you for the good wishes, there is going to be a lot of ground to cover. Impishly yours, Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 23:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at TheSmartPenguin23 (edits from 2019 in the history) for ideas too.

I have to say, though - Aberdeen and Dundee aren't listed on the CA page as cities, and I think they'd be targets. The oil industry at Aberdeen was up and running by DD, and the shipbuilders in Dundee aren't insignificant - they made Carrier sized ships at one point, and frigates more recently (compared to 1983), and could be used to repair a navy comparatively easily if left alone.

As Ben said, the bombs aren't that strong - make them bigger and you solve most of the problem - adjust Glasgow/Edinburgh as needed. For that matter, the UK is probably out of range of tactical warheads anyway, so it would be needed anyways.

With most of the NI leadership on both sides and their more radical supporters wiped out (and, given fallout from Belfast and the wind patterns, probably a lot more Protestant dead) I suspect you'd have less trouble there than you think there would be.

More things to remark on, but that can wait until things are fleshed out more, though I will say - the capital of Northumbria is at Alnwick because that is where the county seat of Northumberland is, where its Dukes live, and where they'd base themselves out of.

Lordganon (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Some good points raised there LG. Also good to see you back. So I did actually think about Aberdeen and Dundee not being targeted and looked up information on that front. Both Soviet and British planning avoided the cities being nuked, with Soviet planning actually highlighting the dock capability you mentioned as this would be used for a potential landing site for Soviet troops (a depressing thought, personally). As the nukes were launched most likely at targets pre-planned it would make sense for the cities of the north to avoid nuclear bombs. Along with this, I think the bombs that hit Edinburgh and Glasgow would be realistic, and what instead is probably a better move is that the 200kt nuke on Glasgow hits more to the west where major RN installations are located which would make sense as they would knock out naval capability.

I also understand that these docks in Aberdeen could be used for repairs, but realistically Scotland would not much be able to pull off anything of the sort as their main issue just becomes survival and the like. Belfast also only has the one nuke hitting it, so will need to look into the positioning of the military bases which would likely be priority number one. Derry was also a major hub for the British while the troubles were going on and thus they would likely remain alive. Probably add to the matter that Belfast would probably still have survivors and you have a decent recipe for utter chaos. Food shortages and problems will likely only add to flare up tensions and would likely radicalise a good chunk of the population and give us further chaos and a chance for organisations such as the UVF to capitalise upon.

Ah, now Alnwick makes sense, I was left pretty confused by it tbh. Impishly yours, Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 20:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, Southern Scotland has been trough hell, but 23,000 is way to low because:

1. None of the wars ended it it being geocoded.
2. Unscathed Borders Region had a population of about 95,000 (55,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Lothian would OTL number 200,000ish (125,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). Unscathed Dumfries and Galloway had a population of about 105,000 (66,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Central Region would OTL number about 100,000 (65,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?).
3. Borders Region has good farmland in it's valleys.
4. Lothian got more lightly hit than it should have been.
5. Central Region (Less Falkirk) and Dumfries & Galloway were lightly populated places to. A hit on the port of Grangemouth (plus any military bases, if any) would be all that would be hit. There would be radiation blowing in from elsewhere.

Politics would run as follows:

1. Conservative zones- Dumfries and Galloway, Borders Region, Mid Lothian, East Lothian, Edinburgh and Steiring.
2. Labour zones- West Lothian, Edinburgh, Clackmannan and Falkirik
3. Libral\SDP zones- Edinburgh and all of Borders Region
4. SNP zones- West Lothian, Galloway and Steiring
5. Indpendent\residents associations- All of Dumfries and Galloway, Stirling, East Lothian and all of Borders Region

~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

ADOPTIONS

Archive 1

Adopting every Italian state

Hi, i'm Alex, a long time contributor of 1983: Doomsday, and i would ask if i can adopt every article about the Italian survivor states; Genoa, Tuscany, Venetia, Sardinia and Lecce too.

I intend to expand this article and add a bit of fresh to Italy, also to expand and correct some of the errors written 10 years about about Lecce, Venice, Genoa, Tuscany and Sicily too. I hope that you will agree with me that Italy need a refreshment and some adjustments. Mal3ssio97 23:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

...What you view as errors are not. Answer overall is "no" and "ask the authors" Lordganon (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Planning on a scale beyond the individual city-state is obviously necessary to clean things up, and not just for Italy. But we ought to wait til there's consensus on your current Review of Sicily, which is still in a very unfinished state. Once the new version of Sicily is confirmed, we can move on to planning the rest of Italy. One thing at a time. False Dmitri (talk) 16:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Wyoming

Does anyone have any ideas to help flesh out Wyoming's history, politics, and culture? 2020ckeevert (talk) 02:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Is there any way to justify adopting the improved, no-seal version of the flag, or is that just wishful thinking? False Dmitri (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is a reason to remove the seal from the flag. But we need to get to work on the history of Wyoming. 2020ckeevert (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Adopting Indonesia (1983: Doomsday)

Hi, I'm Khalif, a native Indonesian. And i would like to ask, if i can adopt the Indonesia articles. It hasn't been worked on for some time, and i would like to rework parts of it.

Khalif Ali Husain2 (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

...Follow the guidelines. You need to ask around and wait first. Lordganon (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)