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GENERAL DISCUSSION

The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals. It's divided into sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7


Rebuilding/Reclaiming Destroyed Cities

It has been around 38 years since Doomsday, would radiation levels be dropping to a point where cities could begin being cleaned up and rebuilt? I know uranium and plutonium have long half lives, but weather would wash or blow the radioactive materials away over time. I think some cities would begin to be able to be cleaned up and rebuilt. Obviously this will depend on how large and resource heavy the surrounding nations are.

Alternatively, would some nations (Like the ANZC, USSR, USA, etc) turn the abandoned cities into nature preserves? Especially as newer cities replace the destroyed cities and rebuilding major infrastructure is both expensive and time consuming.

Thanks!

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Confederate States of America (Muscle Shoals) and other pro-US survivor states

So in the timeline, a non-racist CSA existed from late 1985 until around 1999 when it dissolved. As of the mid-2010’s there were talks of reforming the nation (in the TL), but it was decided to defer and wait until the United States entered the region and rejoin the USA.

By 2020, while the United States is reaching closer to where these states existed, there are still fairly substantial territorial gaps to reunification. Based on the position of the US, I could actually see the government in Torrington encouraging nations that are interested in reunification, but geographically isolated (such as the former CSA, Pennsylvania, Neonotia, etc.) to form regional groupings and treat them like associated states. The nations could maintain a high degree of autonomy to handle local situations with their own militaries, elections, economies, and regional affairs; but federal authorities in the US could use these as stepping off points to attempt to reunify as much of the former country as possible, as well as stave off influence from hostile nations such as Superior or Virginia.

Long term goals would be for possible reunification, but I also think Torrington would recognize that just alignment with the United States is preferable to nothing at all.

To sum up, I think the US would actually encourage the former CSA (Muscle Shoals) to reunify as a nation and the two countries work in tandem with long term goals of reunification once territory and communication is up to par to allow for government officials to travel and communicate effectively.

Daeseunglim (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about it really, for me it would be detremental to the United States supporting a revived Confederacy, even if slavery woudn't be brought up i think a massive backlash and suspicious would emerge among the African Americans of that area and also from the other states of the region like Neonotia and North Carolina. In my opinion if anything there yes should be a new unification of the southern states, but under a different name and flag, maybe call it "American Union State", "Southern States of America" or "American Federal Republic". I would suggest Columbus in Georgia or Tallahassee / St. Augustine in Florida, even Athens or Augusta could make for some good capital. Alex (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

That is a valid point and I tend to agree. It doesn’t have to be named the Confederate States, but I could imagine it encompasses the remaining independent states of the dissolved Muscle Shoals CSA (former CSA Kentucky and Tennessee joined the Commonwealth of Kentucky), Neonotia, and Florida with a possibility for Eastern Tennessee, Piedmont, and Blue Ridge joining.

Augusta, GA; Columbus, GA; and Tallahassee, FL were all destroyed on Doomsday. Athen, GA was overrun by raiders and abandoned within a year after Doomsday. Saint Augustine, FL is a city within the Republic of Florida, but it seems to be somewhat isolated from the more populated areas in the Deep South, though long term I could see it being developed into a major port as it is one of the few areas on the east coast with a natural bay, however I don’t think it is positioned effectively to be a capital.

I would suggest either Rome, GA or Muscle Shoals (since it already has the structures from 1985-1999 CSA).

I think long term, there wouldn’t be a huge political barrier, both regions are conservative in OTL and ATL, so politics wouldn’t come into play; it serves the Deep South well in that it gets access (albeit likely a longer time for transit) to the West Coast and Pacific market and the US a stronger foothold on the Atlantic beyond the USAR, and would strengthen the more mining and industrial based western states with agriculture from the southern states who lack major industrial development.

It is just over 600 miles from a major US population center to a major CSA (former) population center [Dodge City, Kansas to Muscle Shoals]. The major issue will be geography as Kentucky controls most of the land between the US and former southern states.

My suggestion would be as follows:

United Southeastern America

  • Capital: Muscle Shoals (~41,853 [2020])
  • Largest City: Cape Coral (95,176 [2020])
  • Population: 3,194,285 (2020)
  • Government Style: Confederation with a high level of autonomy for member states, but all foreign affairs and interstate disputes are handled via the centralized government, in political affiliation with the United States
  • States
    • Alabama: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Alabama
      • Capital/Largest City - Florence
      • Population: 268,845 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL North Alabama region
    • Florida: Existing Republic of Florida
      • Capital - Gainsville
      • Largest City - Cape Coral
      • Population: 1,649,368 (2020)
    • Georgia: Former Muscle Shoals CSA Georgia
      • Capital/Largest City - Rome
      • Population: 524,970 (2020)
      • Territory: OTL Northwest Georgia region
    • Neotonia
      • Capital - Americus
      • Largest City - Valdosta
      • Population: 709,249 (2020)
      • Region: South Georgia, South Alabama
  • Territories/Federal Districts
    • Muscle Shoals (in state of Alabama)
      • Population: 41,853 (2020)

Other territories that could possibly be added:

  • Hot Springs as Arkansas
    • Capital/Largest City - Hot Springs
    • Population: 453,471
  • Blue Ridge Republic as North Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Asheville
    • Population: 433,432 (2020)
  • Piedmont Republic as South Carolina
    • Capital/Largest City - Greenville
    • Population: 451,637 (2020)
  • East Tennessee as Tennessee
    • Capital - Morristown
    • Largest City - Knoxville
    • Population: 529,557 (2020)
  • United States Atlantic Remnant as Virgin Islands
    • Capital/Largest City - Charlotte Amalie
    • Population: 244,189 (2020)

But I think these nations are unlikely, the first four seem to have gone their own way, and the USAR seems to prefer the existing arrangement. Not to mention the US Navy has gain a significance number of assets, including a carrier strike group.

Daeseunglim (talk) 07:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Southern US 1983DD 2021

So here's my proposal, this is the map of the Southern United States if united into one country, it incorporate the states of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. The red dots represents potential capitals and the yellow areas are restricted zones due to the radiations.

Alex (talk) 01:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

East American Alliance

Just an FYI to the group that I made a few minor edits to the EAA page. I reordered the “Establishment” section of it because it seemed odd that the member states was listed there and created a separate header for members and potential members. I also added Gettysburg as a partner/observer to the organization. I understand the reason for not joining (when the group was formed Gettysburg and Virginia did not share a border like the other member states do), however I think it is reasonable to consider Gettysburg as a partner and observer state, similar to how OTL Ukraine is not part of NATO but heavily collaborates and trains with the organization.

I also restructured the operations section to create a header for official operations and sub headers for the Liberation of Portland, TN; the Virginia-Jacksonian War; and I added a new header for counter raider operations in former Virginia (state). I think given Virginia’s (country) expansion eastward it would face resistance from gangs, similar to the PA survivor states and it would be reasonable to consider that the East American Alliance would be involved in the efforts to drive them out.

If anyone objects to my edits, please let me know, but I felt it was reasonable.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Minnesota

Given the United States controls eastern North and South Dakota, I believe it is reasonable for the government to claim territory in and reform the state of Minnesota in the western reaches of the state, avoiding Assiniboia, International Falls, and Olmsted.

The territory would encompass western Minnesota and the capital would be located in Moorehead.

What are people’s thoughts on this?

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Updated Map of the United States

1983DD United States Map

I have a new map with more details on the states/counties controlled by the United States. What does everyone think of this?

Thank you!

Daeseunglim (talk) 19:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I think we already have several versions of US maps, but i can be wrong Alex (talk) 21:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Map/Demographics

Virginian Territorial Control and Population

There needs to be a map of Virginia created as the borders are very nebulous which has lead to disputes IRL over the size and scale of the nation. I do believe that Virginia would also encompass part of southwestern Pennsylvania by this stage as it already controls all of West Virginia, western Maryland, and southeastern Ohio.

Additionally, I think a population needs to be pinned down. There were major disagreements early on as the original nation seemed a bit unrealistically overpowered. I think this should be clarified. West Virginia is mountainous and lacks a significant amount of arable land, so I think there would be a population drop from starvation and the historical canon indicates the area fell into pretty severe lawlessness. However as far as nuclear strikes, this region was one of the better places to be, as only Wheeling was targeted.

I think that modern Virginia would be composed of the following:

  • East Virginia
    • Region: OTL Virginia counties of - Alleghany, Augusta, Bath, Botetourt, Buchanan, Clarke, Craig, Dickerson, Fredrick, Giles, Highland, Montgomery, Paige, Pulaski, Roanoke, Rockbridge, Rockingham, Russell, Shenandoah, Smyth, Tazewell, and Warren, Wise, and Wythe. Independent cities of - Burns Vista, Covington, Harrisonburg, Lee, Lexington, Norton, Roanoke, Salem, Scott, Staunton, Washington, Waynesboro, and Winchester
    • Capital: Roanoke
    • Largest City: Roanoke
    • Population: 341,871
  • Ohio
    • Region: OTL Ohio counties of - Athens, Belmont, Carroll, Gallia, Guernsey, Harrison, Hocking, Jackson, Jefferson, Lawrence, Meigs, Monroe, Morgan, Noble, Vinton, and Washington
    • Capital: Athens
    • Largest City: Athens
    • Population: 158,321
  • Maryland
    • Region: OTL Maryland counties of - Allegheny, Garrett, and western and southern part of Washington (just north of Hagerstown would be the border)
    • Capital: Cumberland
    • Largest City: Cumberland
    • Population: 65,248
  • Pennsylvania
    • Region: OTL Pennsylvania counties of - Fayette, Greene, Somerset, Washington
    • Capital: Waynesburg
    • Largest City: Washington
    • Population: 127,682
  • Virginia
    • Region: All of OTL West Virginia
    • Capital: Charleston
    • Largest City: Charleston
    • Population: 883,814

Virginia stats:

  • Population: 1,576,936
  • Capital: Charleston
  • Largest City: Charleston

This gives it a more realistic population taking into account attrition from gang warfare, starvation, and poor medical care. However it still leaves it one of the more powerful regional players, in line with existing canon (it is still larger than all the other regional nations except for Kentucky).

Daeseunglim (talk) 07:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography

Section Archives:Page 1 | Page 2

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals

Section archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Culture / Society

Middlesbrough Olympics

First of all, I am a newbie to FANDOM editing however I have experience on Wikipedia. I am proposing Middlesbrough as the winning for a Summer Olympics. The event would be interesting to create medal tables, images, sport facilities created and how the athletes get to the event. I will start creating the propose article if anybody wants to help. Mr ios Subscriber

Archives: Page 1Page 2Page 3

Miscellaneous discussion

Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5

United States Influence

I think we need to review Lincoln (nation), Superior and Virginia as all three are vehemently against the US government and act ridiculously (and out of characteristically for Lincoln and Superior) authoritarian when it comes to CRUSA and US supporters. While I agree resentment in many nations will exist and many nations may be unwilling to join the reformed nation, whether for financial (Alaska & Hawaii) reasons, political (Niagara Falls) reasons, geographical (Blue Ridge) reasons, religious (Deseret) reasons, or simply the idea that they are doing fine on their own and don’t need the USA (Texas). However; Lincoln (nation), Superior, and Virginia are almost ASB ridiculous with how anti-American they are.

When the timeline was structured there was a strong debate over how realistic that was, and from what I gather the same individual wrote all three articles very early on when there were two expectations that have changed drastically since the timeline creation: the first being that most of the North American continent was empty and the second is that most Americans know what happened to Regan.

I think all three nations could be uninterested in rejoining the USA with Lincoln (nation) being worried about the federal government overruling local decision makers and both Superior and Virginia becoming regional powers on their own, really not needing the USA at this stage.

While I do not believe the United States will ever regain control of the entire former territory, I think it will grow in size a bit more and I believe a system like what is occurring with the US Atlantic Remnant (US Virgin Islands and a few other assorted ones) will become more common as communications and transportation improves.

That the parts of the country interested in rejoining do so, but as an associated state, not a full fledged territory or state. Similar to the modern (OTL) US relation ship with Palau or other United States Associated States.

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I also believe, given that much of western Minnesota has been abandoned or unclaimed, the United States may reform the state with the capital in Moorehead.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use {{ddprop}} when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the Editorial Guidelines for more information on this process).

Archived Proposals: Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28


Rajneeshistan

Proposal for a new small-state, located in the PNW of the former United States. Area was unoccupied by any other Doomsday nation (according to my search of the map and existing successor nations in North America), which was the catalyst of creating the nation (a fill-in-the-blank thing basically).

I'm not super attached to Rajneeshistan so any edits, changes, adjustments, or just nixing the idea are all fine by me, I have no great dedication to the project. Dieua-Artio (talk) 23:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a really clever idea and is something that works in a post-apocalypse setting. It seems too big, however, in both area and population. Simply because it seems really really difficult to maintain cult discipline among a population of 200,000 people like that. Maybe I'm wrong, though; I'm definitely willing to hear the justification for it. And area too, filling in all the unclaimed land of Washington just strikes me as too much for a state like this. But again, maybe I'm missing an important rationale for it. False Dmitri (talk) 23:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there that many survivors left in Washington? I also agree with False Dimitri, I don’t think a cult would be able to have that many members and stay intact. Additionally, it would have shared borders with what became Lincoln immediately after Doomsday, the region which was run by white supremacists, so there would absolutely be major conflict there. Eastern Washington outside of Spokane is very conservative in OTL and I don’t even think a large nation of this nature could gain a foothold like this let alone survive.

The economy would not be that successful, it would be very small and focused on survival such as blacksmithing, farming, security, etc. not yoga. If it did focus on aspects like spirituality and yoga, you can almost guarantee there would be massive upheaval as people starved. They say we are only 3 meals away from anarchy.

Additionally, if it was a cult, I cannot see the United States, Victoria, or Astoria (even though it is a dictatorship) permitting this nation to survive long term, and would likely seek to either overthrow the government or outright invade.

I would recommend scaling this down to a single county at most, and make it very rural to avoid catching the eye of other countries.

The OTL 1989 population of the region encompasses by your proposed nation (Yakima, Klickitat, and Western Benton counties) is in the neighborhood of 220,000 people. If we assume 25% losses due to fighting and starvation and another 15% loss due to diseases, we get to around 140,000 people.

The area voted heavily conservative (in the 1980 Presidential Election, Yakima voted 55.2% Republican, Klickitat voted 49.5% Republican, and Benton voted 64.7% Republican) so there would likely be an exodus of conservatives into Idaho, Oregon, or Lincoln if this nation gained traction, as well as any non-religious or liberal individuals as the nation imposed religion on people. Assume another 40% loss due to exodus, which I think is realistic. We are left with 84,000 people approximately in 1983 and assuming a 5% population growth per decade leaves us with 102,103 people today.

According to Wikipedia, at it’s height Rajneeshpuram had 7,000 people and it was a self sufficient community in north-central Oregon. Having to relocate and fight off bandits and raiders would take a toll on that population, even 7,000 people isn’t enough to take on and control 84,000 people.

Given the US controls Wasco County, Oregon (where Rajneeshpuram started), I would suggest the following:

  • The community remains neutral between 1983 and the Oregon Civil War and only involves itself to drive out raiders and state investigators. State officials investigate the community as a means to distract against their own bad behavior and point the finger at Rajneeshpuram.
  • In the civil war, the government that would become Astoria tries to drive the people out, but are unsuccessful due to other important military operations and troops defecting to Oregon.
  • When Oregon stabilized and splits between Oregon and Astoria, Oregon state authorities begin to investigate Rajneeshpuram due to complaints by citizens of Wasco County, and this forces the believers to flee into Washington State in 2007.
  • The community finds the Yakama Indian Reservation somewhat intact but largely depopulated due to fighting with Spokane through the 1980’s and 1990’s with only a few thousand survivors left.
  • It forms an independent nation with the new capital being Toppenish, renamed Rajneeshpuram, the nation has a population of around 30,000 people circa 2010, 31,500 circa 2020.
  • From survivors, the leadership of Rajneeshpuram find out about the United States and Victoria.
  • The nation fortifies its borders and takes steps for self sufficiency as it knows that the United States or Victoria are likely to attack it.
  • Present day, it is still an independent nation, but US interests are beginning to look towards arresting the nation’s leadership due to alleged crimes against humanity and dictatorial practices. Additionally, it is a destabilizing force on the border of the US state of Cascadia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Any alterations, to a major or minor degree, are all fine by me. Is just a mild side thought-project. Another immediate thought after the article was made is - what of the Yakima Tribe? They'd likely have issue with the religious-state being encroaching into their tribal lands. I can alterate it with the above suggestions, or if someone else wants to take it on that is great too. Dieua-Artio (talk)

I would say to go ahead, whenever you're ready. The Yakima will also present an interesting part of the story. False Dmitri (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Second Anglo-Xhosa War

Murph adopted New Britain several months ago and wrote the section History of New Britain (1983: Doomsday)#Conflict with KwaXhosa. The changes are large enough that I feel they ought to be discussed here, so I've labelled the section as a proposal for now. False Dmitri (talk) 16:55, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Confederation of Pennsylvanian States

Proposal for a supranational economic and military alliance between Lehigh, Reading, and Susquehanna. I think given the proximity of the nations and the fact that the raiders in the region have largely been expelled or arrested, it is reasonable that they would form some sort of economic union, especially given their relative isolation, this would help the nations try to keep their economies functioning and give them more clout in the United Communities. There is the possibility for State College, North Pennsylvania, and Gettysburg joining, but at the moment, based on how they are written, I don't think any of these nations would be interested.

It would function very similar to OTL European Union, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Daeseunglim (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

By 2017 I would definitely expect most people in the area to be ready for some consolidation and larger units. This would be a rather modest effort compared to the dreams of pro-Union Pennsylvanians, and even anti-Unionites would see it as a positive step, I think. False Dmitri (talk) 20:13, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I view it as a middle ground between people who want the state to unify and people who don’t want any unification whatsoever. Also, even though the TL hasn’t had major updates since 2011, I think Virginia would begin to occupy territory around the southwestern part of the state, and given Virginia’s historical tendency to act aggressively towards its neighbors, I think it could set up a major conflict between Virginia and Pennsylvanian survivor states.

When LG and I were discussing this, he said that North Pennsylvania and State College wouldn’t be interested, but I disagree.

State College would dominate the organization based on size and population, and I think they would likely accept this as the next best thing to annexing North Penn, Reading, and Susquehanna. North Pennsylvania, though it is gravitating towards Canada (I think all the survivor states in PA barring Gettysburg are leaning pro-Canada), I think would recognize that Virginia is a threat and a unified Pennsylvanian front would fare better against Virginia in a war compared to each state on its own (in a scenario where Virginia did invade, I don’t think Reading or Susquehanna could successfully hold off Virginia.

While State College claims to be the successor of Pennsylvania, I think practical people in its government would recognize that it cannot control the whole state and by 2021 ATL, it would recognize the independence of the other survivor states however it would probably want to be recognized as the successor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I think North Pennsylvania would agree, I am not sure about Reading, and both Lehigh and Susquehanna would follow Reading’s lead.

The organization would probably be spurred by Virginian expansionism, Canada’s inability to really provide meaningful support barring materials to all the Pennsylvania survivor states, and the idea that a unified front would be more practical.

Additionally, I think Canada and Delmarva would probably encourage this to happen. I know Canada is an ADC member and there was talks of adding Delmarva (I am not sure if this has happened yet).

While I don’t think joining the ADC is likely for the foreseeable future (especially given the lack of a coast and the fact that all the nations combined likely only have 100,0000 soldiers at most), I think that Canada, Delmarva, and the ADC as a whole would recognize that a united Pennsylvania would be a regional power and would be able to help counter Superiorian and Virginian influence in the region.

I think the likely member states are:

  • Lehigh
  • North Pennsylvania
  • Reading
  • State College
  • Susquehanna

I also think it is possible that the Republic of New York would be an observer. However, I do not believe that Gettysburg would join, and is more likely to join the Dixie Alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 14:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Flag of PA DownDifPath
This seems like a reasonable way forward, and the details are well thought out. I like that attention is being paid to the wider regional dynamics, especially Canada and its rivalry with Superior, something that definitely needs more looking at. May I make a vexillological suggestion? This seems like a good opportunity to introduce a quality flag based on the keystone symbol, something like this one. Maybe as a "war flag" or some other sort of variant version alongside the official one with the coat of arms. False Dmitri (talk) 20:33, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
To me it was good to list this since it affects the region of eastern North America so much. But I also feel it's ready to graduate. It's looking like Daesung has good, solid plans for developing that whole region now that Pennsylvania is sorted out. False Dmitri (talk) 14:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

NASCAR

Hi, I've been really fascinated with this timeline and as a NASCAR fan, I wanted to see what I could come up with in a restarted NASCAR. I've been putting ideas together in a Google Sheet for a while now and I'll start with the basics.

Basically I'm thinking that there have been on and off stock car races held in Blue Ridge, Piedmont and Virginia for a bit. Then by about somewhere between 1990 and 1992, the surviving drivers come together to reform NASCAR, or perhaps a different name. I did some research and here are the tracks that did/could've survived Doomsday:

Martinsville (Virginia) Bristol (East Tennessee) North Wilkesboro (Blue Ridge) Darlington (Piedmont) Greenville-Pickens (Piedmont) New-Asheville (Blue Ridge) Hickory (Blue Ridge)

Other tracks that might have survived are Texas World (College Station, East Texas) and possibly Daytona and Talladega, though these tracks would come in later. As I would assume they'd want to keep the races close for now

I would also say that NASCAR eventually booms entering the 2010's and would expand out to places like Kentucky, Cape Girardeau, Toledo and other places. I did make a 2020 schedule where maybe they race at surviving Indiana Dirt Tracks too. Ideas I have also include stock car leagues in places like Brazil and ANZC. I am working on drivers, based off of who lived where and who was in that final race at Martinsville before Doomsday. I could say perhaps they all found a way to survive (the drivers from that race), but I know I need to be realistic. I know there was something about the Winston Cup being reinvented as a LeMan's Endurance Race, is it also possible these could be two separate things?

In terms of the cars, I would assume at first it would almost feel like the early day's again. Like possibly they all find their old cars, fix them up and go racing. Then as time moves on, companies and manufacturers invest into it. I'm open to thoughts and suggestions as well. Thank you.

SR831 (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think NASCAR will make a comeback for the foreseeable future. Very few states have enough fuel to operate combat vehicles or public transportation vehicles let alone personal vehicles. NASCAR is very wasteful for fuel and parts and I just cannot see North American survivor states having those resources.

Daeseunglim (talk) 00:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I understand. I did see something that regarded Formula One coming back by 2013. I do understand that fuel would be a huge issue, so instead maybe stock car racing in ANZC, Mexico or Brazil could be focused on instead? Or perhaps no comeback until the 2010's? Plus maybe something is done like the Saturday Night Short Track kind of racing where you have the heats and a main feature. Which wouldn't consume as much fuel because of the shorter races.


SR831 (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Tripolitania

As a final step for the months-long review of Greece and its zone of influence (see "Current Reviews"), a new page has to be written for Tripolitania. Co-written by me, Mal3ssio97, ForsakenPear and Imperium Guy. In short, western Libya was devastated by war and famine, then partially colonized by Sicily. After the war in 2010, the regional powers set up a rather precarious republic to govern the territory. It will do well if it can take advantage of its oil reserves, but it faces big challenges. False Dmitri (talk) 15:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Military

I would like permission and support from the group as a whole to begin creating separate military pages for the nations in North America, starting with PA survivor states (I know this region best, so it will be easiest from here), then focusing on Canada, Kentucky, Texas, Superior, the United States, and Virginia and moving from there through the United Communities nations.

As we create more conflicts agreed upon military forces prior to will help keep stuff from being ridiculous like nations fielding half their population in the military during peace, or 800+ aircraft in an area where that many aircraft didn’t even exist pre-Doomsday and there are no aircraft facilities present.

I think this will help us better plan out wars and conflicts, keeping them realistic and making sure the winner and conflict structure is realistic.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Full power to you mate. You seem well versed in the dynamics of the region and the different factors at play. Look forward to seeing what you create on this front. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Continental Weather Service

A proposal by the user named Codes & Roads. Not sure what the scope of this is. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Allegheny War

Tentative war I have an idea for between the Dixie Alliance/Superior and Delmarva/PA survivor states. If its agreed for this not to be canon or the page owners don't want their nations to be involved I can obsolete or modify the page. However this region seems to be a powder keg considering the alignment during the Saguenay War, Virginian territorial aggression, and borders or claimed territory beginning to overlap and interfere with each other or at the bare minimum beginning to reach each other.

I think a 12 year gap between the Saguenay War and this proposed conflict is enough time for the borders to expand to this point (note that Delmarva, North Penn, Reading, and State College are still working off borders that are around 10 years old at this point). The name is more of a placeholder, we can probably find something more appropriate or accurate for the conflict.

I have my proposed sides and my reasoning:

  • Basically Virginia seizes military bases or settlements Delmarva controls on the Chesapeake in the former state of Virginia.
  • Delmarva begins to mobilize and reach out to regional allies or partners for support. Meanwhile Virginia calls the EAA to a meeting to declare war to seize more territory, who agree with Kentucky supplying in the mid 20k and Cape Girardiau supplying several hundred attached to Kentucky's contribution.
  • Virginia subtly threatens to attack North Penn and State College if they do not acquiesce to Virginian territorial demands which encompasses land the two latter nations already control. It secretly prepares with Gettysburg to take control of Lancaster County (for another angle to attack Delmarva at) and Huntingdon to distract from the other points in the war.
  • North Penn and State College sign an agreement to support each other in a war while not conceding their own disputes (given cooperation at Saint Marys I find this to be a realistic agreement). Both countries pressure Reading and Susquehanna to support them, which both nations initially decline (not knowing the secret plan to invade Lancaster County).
  • Virginia reaches out to Saguenay and Superior who both join the Dixie Alliance (informally not as members) as payback to North Penn for supporting Canada, however Superior is limited to its Navy and Air Force with some marines in support while Saguenay is limited to a detachment of soldiers with Superior. Most of their personnel are concentrated to protect if Canada intervenes.
  • Superior agrees to spearhead naval operations against North Penn and disrupt trade with Canada. A joint Gettysburg/Virginia force will confront Delmarva. Kentucky and Virginia will invade North Penn/State College, and Gettysburg will occupy southern Reading and southern State College with support from Virginia.
  • The war breaks out full scale from skirmishes that were occurring between Delmarva and Virginia in early July 2021.
  • Delmarva is preparing a naval operation to land troops and recapture some military bases, but are forced to divert and defend against a large assault on the surviving military bases on Delmarvian controlled Virginia (former US state).
  • They are also forced to divert some reserves and artillery north to defend against some light attacks by Gettysburg in former Maryland.
  • North Penn and State College were anticipating an attack but are still pushed back a bit with State College not prepared for a two front war and North Penn was not anticipating Superior naval operations, which hinders trade. However overland trade still occurs and London and Niagara Falls make it clear an act of aggression towards neutral shipping is an act of war on their countries. The two nations are pushed back a bit to former PA Route 422 in the north and east.
  • Reading is taken completely off guard and a training exercise between Reading and Susquehanna is quickly reoriented to fend off the invasion. Gettysburg occupies a small portion of southern Northumberland County in Susquehanna (more as a statement) but are unable to take Fort Indiantown Gap, like it was hoping.
  • Reading and Susquehanna begin to mobilize their military forces and form a unified force under Reading. The PA survivor states form two tasks forces with North Penn/State College leading in the west and Reading in the east. A joint command center is set up in State College for Delmarva and all of PA to coordinate.
  • Meanwhile, Virginia sets up the equivalent at the Greenbriar.

I'm still gathering my thoughts on this, but what is the group consensus?

Overall, I think the combined Delmarva/PA force would be victorious just given their alliance with Canada and the ADC, who may intervene and at a minimum would likely supply the best weapons money could buy. I think Virginia would be forced to recognize Delmarva control over parts of eastern Virginia (state), while being limited in Pennsylvania to already occupied territory. Nothing would happen to the rest of the Dixie Alliance or Superior beyond financial penalties and losses in manpower and equipment. I don't think much territory would actually change hands as I don't think any of the nations have the manpower to actually secure and control land that was original part of the enemy.

I think it would end similar to how the Saguenay War ended, where the D/PA alliance is beginning to push hard against the Dixie Alliance forces to a point they may win, but the ADC and Canada press the group to stop as an invasion would be unlikely to succeed and controlling the territory would be impossible. I could see the Dixie Alliance being disbanded by the victors, but reformed rapidly under a different name by Kentucky and Virginia.

Daeseunglim (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

CURRENT REVIEWS

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

We place content under Review if someone thinks it contradicts canon or is so improbable that it's damaging to the timeline. To begin a Review, mark the relevant article(s) with the {{ddreview}} template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. Just as with proposals, group consensus will decide if the article should be kept, modified, or marked obsolete.

Prussia

I asked User:Oerwinde if I could adopt the Prussia page little over a week ago, and I've yet to receive a response. Unlike Mal3ssio's Sicily article, I don't intend to rewrite the entire page from scratch, I just wish to add more nuance to Prussia's history, culture and political scene - though I will alter some events that have dubious canon (at least when compared to the main TL), mostly the nuclear strikes in the northern half of the DDR and how the Hohenzollerns manage to get into power.

Lemme know if I can get the go-ahead to re-write or not.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

No, there is no way the Hohenzollerns can get back into power, hello? It was East Germany here, think of the mentality towards monarchy in such place, number one. Number two, who could survive DD AND inspire leadership across the country? Sorry, it just doesn't work, germans are tired of monarchy at this point. Remember, this timeline must be realistic.

Also you should detail more about your projects, I just can't get a good grasp of what you want to change and especially WHY you want to change those parts.

SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well Prussia is an old established part of the timeline, and changing that would be a lot of work and be a very big project. Benkarnell (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sigma, you miss entirely that presence of West Berlin, and that this state is primarily based from there. Not the east.

The royals are turned to, eventually, following a large amount of aid and goodwill on their part, as more or less a compromise for a government between all parties (West Berlin, East Berlin, the NATO garrison)

The Soviet forces, overall, mostly end up toast with the hits on their headquarters outside the city.

Really, the only issue with the monarchy is that they have the wrong descendant for the throne, as noted on the talk page.

Tired of monarchy.... even in Germany today, a large number poll in favor of the crown.

DD, tell more of your plans.

Lordganon (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure Lordganon ? https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-germans-do-not-want-their-monarchy-back/a-6265897 Mal3ssio97 Mal3ssio97 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

That poll has 33%, or a third, in favor, which is in line with a "large number." Not that I'm going to buy the poll, mind - not only does it not mention where, how, or when it was polled, and it from more than a decade ago, but....

One of the key ways to identify information that is made up, or embellished, or the like, is to look at the number. Quoted rough figures, are, of course, something to be leery about. But so are things like even thirds, and figures that end in 0 or 5. Not saying that this is the case here, but it does not help it.

Beyond that, the opposed person they discuss still knows that the defense minister of the time, for example, is of the nobility. The minister in question doesn't seem like a braggart, so its interesting that she knows that. It also notes that she is from Berlin.... which has its own questions. As noted, Berlin was in two halves, and following 1989, and the collapse of industry in the east, the city had movement from the rest of the former East to it.

More interesting is the level of interest the at the time soon to be royal wedding. They're more aware of the British royals than their own, for a variety of reasons.

More importantly, though, that is from 2011ish. 25 years is a long time.

Lordganon (talk) 12:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I spoken with some germans yesterday and some even members of this wiki, they said that Germans as well us Italians, French and other nations that are a republic for more then 50 years have said to me that Germans don't miss the monarchy and only neo nazi or kaiserboo have this fetish towards the monarchy, so yeah i agree with Sigma that if the original writers wanted Prussia so much then a "Prussian State" or a "Prussian Republic" would had work so much better in my opinion, but here we are.

Thou i still think that if you want a monarchy then it has to be democratic as possible, on the level of the United Kingdom, no way semi authoritarian monarchies are gonna work in 21th century Europe were all of the monarchies are constitutional and parliamentaries one. Alex - Mal3ssio97 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "fetish" is rather insulting, fyi.

Much as I think the poll is bogus (as noted why, plus I suspect, and exit polling tends to support this in other fields, that "social pressure" and other factors mean the number is actually higher, especially if you use specifics) you quoted it so we'll use it. A third of Germans are in favor, according to it. At most, and that is in the last election, your "neo-nazis" (who don't support a crown, fyi), just a bit over 10% of the vote. That's the most they've gotten in decades, since long before DD. Now, I'm aware that a certain portion of the "tent" conservative parties are going to agree with them on some level, but not a majority or even a plurality of their members will be. So your statement isn't true.

That current upswing is more about the EU than anything, as a note. You see a similar increase on the more communist side of things.

You see about the same patterns in place in the other western republics. There is a reason why, in France for example, they legally care about who the claimants are, and even today, two of the three general political patterns there are "Bonapartism" and "Bourbonism," even if the overall monarchial ties are shorted out right now. As an example, Du Gualle is someone from the more Bonaparte school, with regards to policies and attitudes.

But that is today - we're talking about 1983-1990. Different picture. You know your older relatives, the ones that want a return to the "good old days"? Ignoring a lot of the more bigoted parts (not saying there is with yours, but you get the idea) it is about the world as they knew it when they were young, and/or the stories they were told growing up. A lot of the politicians, and the like, of the era are those who were born in the WWII era, or just before. Meaning that their parents were that generation for WWI. So that "drawback" to the past here would have been for those glory days, in their minds. Ahh, Nostalgia.

Now, republicanism in Germany has never been a strong thing by itself. Kind of a this is what works thing, if that makes sense. There's a reason why there was at least two (Hanover and Bavaria) moves for crowns/independence after WWII, which failed largely due to US pressures. And the Easterners have been under dictators since the 1930s by this point - they'll want a strong leadership of some sort, which the westerners won't go for on near the same level. About the only in between there is a crown, so... Add to that the "foreign" garrisons of West Berlin.... Presto! If nothing else, call it the king an independent arbiter.

Prussia is mostly a constitutional state, but, as noted, you've got to have a stronger monarchy than others to satisfy things, especially given the trying times of DD.

Western Monarchies, btw, have a lot more power than you think. It's just that by practice and culture, they don't do it.

Lordganon (talk) 14:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Eh, it's more than fair to call the giant list of restored monarchies in this TL a "fetish". I'm guilty of it too and regret doing it for Hawaii (quite possibly the earliest example of the trope in this timeline). Any individual case might be justified, but it's happened in well over a dozen countries. I suspect this has much to do with the typical alternate history enthusiast's interest in dynasties and genealogy, very little to do with a real assessment of what people in the different communities would look for if society ever collapsed. And Prussia's one of the sillier ones, in my opinion. Like Alex says, it's a pretty obvious case of Kaiserreich fanboyism with a story written around it.
Now it happens that said story has developed into something that's not that bad. It's been through an extensive Review process and fitted pretty well into the overall setting, with enough there to justify some of the more outlandish turns of events. I wouldn't support a total rewrite of the canon unless there was a very strong desire to do it by everyone involved. (And honestly I'd be willing to do the same for Hawaii, I'm sort of annoyed to be part of the problem like that.) False Dmitri (talk) 02:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

<Freely admits to being guilty of that "trope" by virtue of being a monarchist>

Not a "fetish." that's insulting. There's a lot of better terms for the idea you mean.

Funny enough, with the loss of the capital/Oahu and the larger bases, the "haole" population of Hawaii would have taken as massive hit. Add that the "locals" are far more inclined to be in favor of independence... bet that one makes sense more than almost anywhere else globally, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's what I had thought too, but some reading since then shows that Maui and the Big Island's ethnic demographics aren't all that different from the state as a whole. But again my point is that any one restoration might be understandable. It becomes almost humorously absurd when the same thing happens absolutely everywhere. I count twelve thirteen states in Europe alone that are governed by royals today that were not in 1982. Add four or five more in Central Asia. Individually any might have a reason. In the aggregate it's ridiculous. Like everyone looked out the window and said, "On my! Nuclear war! We'd better call up the nearest heir to a deposed dynasty." I am strongly in favor of reducing this crowd of restaurados and I'm more than willing to start with the page that I created. Prussia too - if there's a strong community will to do it, and a credible and well-written alternative. False Dmitri (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
<waggles hands> Depends on how you count the "ethnicity" and who is doing the counting - varies from a hundred thousand "pure" natives, to more than 500k that can claim descent (and often do) in the islands alone. One of those things, you know? As for the idea... restorations, maybe, but we don't see enough states that have people declare themselves such and control areas, so it probably somewhat evens out. Lordganon (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"DD, tell more of your plans."

Apologies for not seeing all this until April, real life stuff and procrastination got in the way. What I want to add to the Prussia page is some extra history and nuance to waht I see as a rather contrived even:, mostly on how the monarchy came to be, Prussia's history post-2011, some additions to its culture, economy, and political structure.

I wrote a pretty good summmation of what I want on the AH Wikia Discord, so I'll just repost it here.

Obligatory wall of text warning. Also, some stuff is from my personal headcanon, so disregard anything about surviving cities and the like. About 90% of it is what I actually want.

The former DDR is dominated by Prussia, which got off lucky thanks to the Soviet first strike crippling much of NATO's short-range ability to respond, sparing a handful of cities in the north (most major Berzik capitals north of the Elbe river, the south got screwed over thanks to population density and its industrial areas). Honecker and much of the higher-level officials were found dead from suicide, imprisoned or were outright lynched in some cases. As for the NATO and WP forces stationed in the city, cooler heads prevailed as they set about stabilising Berlin, bringing both sides of the capital and some of the surrounding cities (Postdam, Bernau) into a loose military government. Sounds contrived, I know, but I had to justify why the DDR and Soviet troops just didn't massacre their NATO counterparts.

Much of the northern DDR is reclaimed in the ensuing months and years, clearing out much of the de-facto Stasi and Volksarmee warlords that controlled the surviving northern towns and cities. After almost a decade (1991-92-ish), the Interim Administration for a United Germany is replaced with a revived Prussian state (mostly after they find out that much of the old East and West is unsalvageable for the time being), led by a surviving Hohenzollern (it can be Christian-Sigismund, but I like to think that Louis Ferdinand was in Berlin at the time of DD). Much of the already established lore for Prussia (war with Poland, the Treaty of Wolfsburg) takes place, but I felt like the backstory needed some polishing and nuance.

Modern Prussia is stuck somewhere between a semi-absolute monarchy (effectively a replacement for the General Secretary - though the King rarely exercises his power), a military dictatorship (the military largely stays out of politics as well) and a mildly corrupt - if functioning - democracy (the 'Socialist Royalists' are a pretty weird idea, if I'm honest. If anything, a market-friendly CDU-type would be in charge, thanks to the DDR's high degree of social conservatism and Prussia's need to distance itself from any form of socialism). Think Thailand, mixed with the Weimar Republic and the German Empire under Frederich III.

The Prussians idolize many of the anti-fascist and communist resistance members (the White Rose movement, July 20 Plotters, the Freikorps and the hundreds of dissidents who were targeted by the Stasi by the DDR) from German history, while also standing in firm opposition to the 'Americanised' democracy of the old West, claiming to be the heirs to the Weimar Republic, the Frankfurt Parliament and the Kaiserreich. Any fascist/natsoc and communist parties are banned, while those that associate with the movements are put under a great amount of social pressure and surveillance (ironic, I know, but the Prussians had to work with what they had...).

Regular street battles between the police, neo-Nazis, a revived Antifaschistische Aktion/Red Army Faction/Kampfgruppen LARPers are a regular feature in Berlin. Prussia is one of Europe's major industrial powers, having recovered what they could from the nuked cities (Halle Neustadt has taken over much of the old nuked, neighbouring city) built much of their heavy industry from scratch and an unlikely source of consumer electronics, thanks to the survival of factories in Strassfurt, Berlin and Teltow. Its relations with the southern states of Saxony and Weimar are cordial, thanks to the surviving universities in the latter and surviving industry (even if Karl Marx Stadt is still outwardly socialist - think of Saxony as the Belarus to Prussia's Russia) in the former.

I'm running with the theory that most regimes tend to use the state systems that came before them. Like how Russia merely replaced the Tsar with an all powerful General-Secretary, only to be replaced with an oligarch in turn. So Prussia would be a flawed democracy at best. Years of martial law and military rule would only make restoring a liberal democracy harder. Because the public remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis and East German regime, the government doesn't overextend itself that often.

West Berlin gets this reputation of being a progressive mecca and a thorn in the side of the mostly-conservative establishment. Conscription's still on the books, though there is an option for civil service. Said civil service no longer comes with the government-backed discrimination that it did in the East, but the stigma might still be there on a social level.

TL;DR the basic theme I want to have for the Prussia page is "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I also threw together a strike map some months back, which may help with figuring out what cities survive in the DDR and what doesn't. I used both the canon Prussia article with whatever other Cold War-era resources I could find.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Considering how long it takes me to research and reply to things and be relatively calm about it, can't judge you.

DD, that is more or less the idea of a review - adding to an article to make it better/more plausible, or removing parts that aren't, changing as little as possible. Your goal is sound.

I would say that the GDR leadership mostly ends up dead in riots, by Soviet forces, etc. Not so much suicide or imprisoned. Maybe have some stuck in their bunkers for a few months, might be funny.

Neubrandenburg would likely be ok, I think, though it looks like we should add Schwerin and Cottbus to the strikes. Doesn't really change much.

Louis Ferdinand was probably in Bremen at DD, where his grandson was attending school.

Truthfully, we can't place any of the family for sure in Berlin, though it is likely that one was.

Can't see the two sides getting together, at least right away. WB is designed, somewhat, by 1983 to last in a siege - and they are walled in, so relatively secure with little reason to come out. They'll get together eventually, mind.

About right on the government, I think, though the Royal Socialist party is more possible than you think. Same logic as the socialist parties in Scandinavia. See no reason for them to want anything to do with the old Weimar Republic, mind.

No way there is battles in the street. Anyone trying that would get shut down right away by soldiers.

About right on the liberal democracy and West Berlin.

Have a look at the map on the Germany article for strikes, etc.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Just about anywhere that a base is hit, the city it is beside/in/against is gone. I would say combine the two strike lists, and remove the surviving city part.

Stendal would explain some things - that area is where we really lack anything organized near the border, compared to other parts. A near-intact division would explain that well.

Poznan isn't the only major city to survive in Poland.

I would adjust the part about Christian-Sigismund changed to having him survive in West Berlin, and rest assumed dead in the West. There's no record of them being imprisoned anywhere.

Radio transmissions should be made "directed" as well, at least in the early years.

Probably should adjust a lot of the first contact things, too.

Lordganon (talk) 11:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

A lot of East German military bases aren't like American ones, with them being so dangerously close to cities. I 'did the math' for all these bases and cities in nukemap, assuming that the former were hit one or two low-yield nukes (anything below between a 100-200 kt, as is seemingly standard for both NATO/WP military bases). The city of Cottbus is arguably the safest bet, as the airbase of the same name lies some distance (approx. 25 km - roughly the same distance between Berlin and Strausberg) away from the city proper. The other cities would either be outright destroyed (Strausberg) or would suffer minor-to-substantial (but not enough to wipe out the city) damage from shockwaves and fires (Zossen).

If it weren't for Wunsdorf (erroneously labelled as Zossen, which is just the nearby town) getting nuked, I planned to have it become some sort of 'Little Moscow', a hub for Prussia's substantial Russian-speaking community outside of Stendal or Berlin.

I'm yet to touch the history section, as that'll require some time to plan. I'll integrate the surviving cities/bases things into whatever section might deserve a mention of them (i.e. Halle-Neustad for its industry and clean-up of the old city, Stendal being a major army base, Wolgast for its shipyards).

First contact will be cleaned out, and will probably be done some years before the original article. Contact with North Germany and the other ex-DDR statelets (Thuringia, Saxony) will probably happen in the late 1980s, especially for the latter two.

Also, while I'm here, I checked the talk page for Weimar/Thuringia and the author said that he intended to have Weimar and Berlin unify under the Prussian banner at some point in the 'near future'. Can I get the go-ahead on that? Thuringia has major universities, some leftover tech hubs (much of the DDR's non-heavy industry - namely chemicals, electronics, vehicle production - were very much 'in the sticks' and wouldn't get hit at all. Nuking a village that just so happens to contain a TV factory is a bit of a waste). Saxony probably wouldn't want to unify due to it being effectively a hold-out of the old DDR.

Once I've sorted out RL stuff, I'll get to working on the rest of the page ASAP.

Cheers.

DeviouslyDeviant (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Salento LoN Protectorate

Hi guys, since i intend to review the article of Sicily, me and othe others had agree that the Lecce mandate was too much bias towards the Italians, so i rewrite it in my sandbox. Basically here after the initial 5 - 6 years of Greek administration both the LoN and the ADC agreed that the mandate should be over by now and in the same year Greece is forced to create a joint administration with Sicily, while at the same time removing Greek troops, LoN peacekeepers would take their place. I expanded the history of the mandate, his administration, defence and others.

Salento

Lecce Mal3ssio97 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Scotland

No idea where to begin. The whole premise is pretty ridiculous. No sense of history or the political conditions were taken into account. Neither was the fact that a blast at the Leith Docks (which likely would hit off the coast and not on top of it) would also at a maximum lead to 100,000 casualties and 10,000 deaths and not lead to any more damage to the central govt buildings than broken windows and potential third degree burns for those unfortunate enough to be outside at the point (IF it hits Leith itself). It also fails to take into account the lack of a nuke to Glencorse Barracks or the fact that a 15kt bomb would struggle to destroy the various dockyards hit, let alone cause less than light damage to the surrounding towns. The only plausible thing here would be that the airbases would all be destroyed... but not all the aircraft.

Add to the fact that the HMS Dalriada, the naval reserve in Glasgow, and HMS Scotia both survive and Scotland descending into... whatever it is that has been written is frankly implausible.

The lack of any mention of the cities of Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee or Perth compounds this problem, with Aberdeen very easily able to take the lead in matters to the north, and an easy source of fuel for the struggling nation in the early days post-DD. Thankfully, after speaking with Ben, I am committed to preserving as much of the shape of Britain - so the Celtic Alliance will still exist, but frankly this would be the start of a major overhaul of the British Isles to add some realism to everything. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that part of the solution, if Scotland seems to have fared too badly given the list of strikes, is to simply add more strikes. 15kt won't do the job? Make it bigger. Add a few more cities, if they're justifiable. That list of targets is always being expanded as we add more fiery deaths to our dystopian hellscape.

That said, I can definitely get behind making changes to correct the often-haphazard way that the Britain content was put together. You might want to explore the contributions of Todetode. They had ideas similar to yours. Last year they submitted a huge amount of updated content, but when people didn't read it immediately they got angry, withdrew their proposals, and essentially vandalized all of their own work. But some of their ideas are still lying around, potentially useful.

You also ought to communicate these ideas with SigmaHero045, who is planning to write a lot of recent history for Britain, and whose plans would definitely be affected by any change to the lore.

Good luck with this. I probably won't be able to help much, it's really outside my areas of expertise (as Todetode learned to their frustration). False Dmitri (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thing is the current list of strikes matches up pretty well with the expected nuclear strikes that were both anticipated by Britain and were planned for by the Soviets. The Soviets had no plans to nuke any of the cities above the central belt of Scotland, so the current list of strikes does make sense. Adding more strikes would have the same effect of having no strikes in the sense that it would make it harder for the region to become part of the Celtic Alliance. With decent changes, and changing the reasoning behind the origins of the Celtic Alliance, we can still have some sort of alignment with what has currently been written. But again, Ireland does need to be looked at as Northern Ireland was dealt with pretty badly and that region would be a definite hotspot for chaos and ugliness. However, if spun right, it could be the impetus for closer relations between Ireland and Scotland and lead to the creation of the Celtic Alliance. And not to fear, adding chaos in Ireland will add with the whole dystopian hellscape vibe.

I'll have a look at Todetode's ideas, and have already messaged SigmaHero, hopefully he gets in touch with me and shares his thoughts and ideas on the situation. Thank you for the good wishes, there is going to be a lot of ground to cover. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at TheSmartPenguin23 (edits from 2019 in the history) for ideas too.

I have to say, though - Aberdeen and Dundee aren't listed on the CA page as cities, and I think they'd be targets. The oil industry at Aberdeen was up and running by DD, and the shipbuilders in Dundee aren't insignificant - they made Carrier sized ships at one point, and frigates more recently (compared to 1983), and could be used to repair a navy comparatively easily if left alone.

As Ben said, the bombs aren't that strong - make them bigger and you solve most of the problem - adjust Glasgow/Edinburgh as needed. For that matter, the UK is probably out of range of tactical warheads anyway, so it would be needed anyways.

With most of the NI leadership on both sides and their more radical supporters wiped out (and, given fallout from Belfast and the wind patterns, probably a lot more Protestant dead) I suspect you'd have less trouble there than you think there would be.

More things to remark on, but that can wait until things are fleshed out more, though I will say - the capital of Northumbria is at Alnwick because that is where the county seat of Northumberland is, where its Dukes live, and where they'd base themselves out of.

Lordganon (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Some good points raised there LG. Also good to see you back. So I did actually think about Aberdeen and Dundee not being targeted and looked up information on that front. Both Soviet and British planning avoided the cities being nuked, with Soviet planning actually highlighting the dock capability you mentioned as this would be used for a potential landing site for Soviet troops (a depressing thought, personally). As the nukes were launched most likely at targets pre-planned it would make sense for the cities of the north to avoid nuclear bombs. Along with this, I think the bombs that hit Edinburgh and Glasgow would be realistic, and what instead is probably a better move is that the 200kt nuke on Glasgow hits more to the west where major RN installations are located which would make sense as they would knock out naval capability.
I also understand that these docks in Aberdeen could be used for repairs, but realistically Scotland would not much be able to pull off anything of the sort as their main issue just becomes survival and the like. Belfast also only has the one nuke hitting it, so will need to look into the positioning of the military bases which would likely be priority number one. Derry was also a major hub for the British while the troubles were going on and thus they would likely remain alive. Probably add to the matter that Belfast would probably still have survivors and you have a decent recipe for utter chaos. Food shortages and problems will likely only add to flare up tensions and would likely radicalise a good chunk of the population and give us further chaos and a chance for organisations such as the UVF to capitalise upon.
Ah, now Alnwick makes sense, I was left pretty confused by it tbh. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, Southern Scotland has been through hell, but 23,000 is way to low because:

  1. None of the wars ended it it being geocoded.
  2. Unscathed Borders Region had a population of about 95,000 (55,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Lothian would OTL number 200,000ish (125,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). Unscathed Dumfries and Galloway had a population of about 105,000 (66,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?). The remnants of Central Region would OTL number about 100,000 (65,000 by 2015 in Doomsday 1983?).
  3. Borders Region has good farmland in it's valleys.
  4. Lothian got more lightly hit than it should have been.
  5. Central Region (Less Falkirk) and Dumfries & Galloway were lightly populated places to. A hit on the port of Grangemouth (plus any military bases, if any) would be all that would be hit. There would be radiation blowing in from elsewhere.

Politics would run as follows:

  1. Conservative zones- Dumfries and Galloway, Borders Region, Mid Lothian, East Lothian, Edinburgh and Steiring.
  2. Labour zones- West Lothian, Edinburgh, Clackmannan and Falkirik
  3. Liberal\SDP zones- Edinburgh and all of Borders Region
  4. SNP zones- West Lothian, Galloway and Steiring
  5. Indpendent\residents associations- All of Dumfries and Galloway, Stirling, East Lothian and all of Borders Region

~ Didcot1a (talk) ~ (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are exactly talking about but I'll try to answer anyway. First of all I am not quite sure what or why you are referencing the numbers for but long story short Soviet planning indicated Scotland as a potential target for invasion and, after talking to Kuupik on the matter, the current hits of canon on most military bases along with the two city nukes make sense in that regard as it would make any potential future invasion all that much easier, allowing them to use Scotland as a base to control the UK - as well as having non-irradiated lands to base this invasion/subjugation from.
If those numbers reference current canon, then all I can say is all that is subject to change.
As for politics, there will likely be no comparison with OTL apart from broad strokes. The SNP are also likely finished as a party - their cause doesn't matter anymore. There will also be a very large number of refugees from the south which will further complicate the political makeup of the nation. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem with the concept of the targets being limited in Scotland is that it has its basis in the early 1970s report for the the British government that thought only 106 targets were in the UK... which mostly assumed only bomber hits, and ignored subs and the possibility of more tactical weapons. Other problems include such things as targeting Cambridge and not Oxford, hitting small observation posts with multi megaton strikes, using tiny hits on some cities and huge ones on others (out of proportion both ways). Scotland in particular is a example of problems cited by its critics, specifically mentioning Aberdeen being left alone as a problem, for example.

As for Scotland as an invasion site... while the Soviets may have planned something like that - not that I can find a real plan of it, but w/e - these are also the same planners that thought they could nuke the hell out of Germany and still advance safely through it, in addition to that having no responses from NATO and an invasion of France not getting nuked.... taking both within less than a month. They weren't exactly all that brilliant or logical about it, so nuking the heck out of an invasion site wouldn't phase them.

More later, but this part has been bugging me most.

Lordganon (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

So a little update with the working plan on that front - we are adding a strike to Aberdeen, likely around the 50-100kt size, right onto the harbour in the centre of the city. I fully agree the invasion plan does not make sense, and even if it was considered, it would be thrown out as soon as the scale of Doomsday became clear. The city is of too great an importance to Scotland and the UK to just be skipped. A hit there should adequately cripple Scotland, enough to roughly align with the extant levels of chaos, rather than having to rewrite the whole narrative to fit the original list of targets. It would also wreck the oil industry for years, which I don't imagine would begin producing again until at least the 90s.
As for Dundee, I'm still not sure how likely a target it is, as it lacks the twofold importance of Aberdeen (oil/port), especially considering similarly-sized cities in the rest of the UK were spared. FP 14:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Egypt

In a large-scale follow up to the review of Greece, I'm putting forward a plan for Egypt and Kemet. I think it's fair to say that I came up with most of the broad outlines; Imperium Guy did most of the actual research and will write most of the details; ForsakenPear did even more fine-grained research and will contribute even more fine-grained details; and Mal3ssio97 produced multiple versions of the maps. For this Gothic cathedral of a proposal, it's Mal's blueprint, my block of stone, Imp's gargoyle, and FP's grotesquely carved facial features.

As ever, the goal is to keep as much the same as possible, while correcting things that were truly implausible. In Egypt's case, the biggest problems were the giant Greek colony, an overly-ambitious irrigation project, and more than a hint of the anti-Muslim bias that affects many of the earlier pages of the timeline. The following chart shows the plans for what to keep and what to change.

There's still... ... but now...
a Muslim Brotherhood takeover in 1984 there will more exploration around the motives for their actions, so they aren't just cartoon villains.
an Israeli attack against Cairo in 1987 the prelude to war, with lots of climate and agricultural factors, will be explained in the complexity that such an event deserves.
Greek support for survivors near the coast they're supporting the remnants of Egypt's navy, the only national institution to survive, rather than Copts who congregate in the Delta. For its efforts, Greece will reap close ties to Egypt and influence over its development, rather than an enormous colony.
a Coptic-dominated state called Kemet that forms in the aftermath it'll be in the south, not the north, where the Copts actually are concentrated. (Putting the Coptic state in the Delta seems to have mostly been a plot device made to facilitate a Greek takeover.) And there's going to be a more complete explanation as to why the Copts gather, why they take the step of forming a state, and how they maintain their independence from Egypt.
Greek presence in a zone in Suez supervised by the League of Nations it's an international zone rather than a Greek colony. Greek forces cooperate with contingents from Egypt, Kemet, Israel, and the Gulf.
a large hydrology and irrigation project in the Western Desert an enormous amount of geological and climatological research has produced a plan for a hopefully more realistic project. It will be a series of canals that feed oases, but rather than an entire second Eonile, the water not absorbed or evaporated will return to the Nile along a more feasible course, which is not yet complete. Also, it began under the Muslim Brotherhood and today is a joint project of the Arab Republic and Kemet.
peaceful coexistence between the Arab Republic and Kemet, and between Egypt and Israel it will be a peace based on mutual interests, strategic cooperation, and realpolitik, rather than one enforced by Greek colonizers.

- False Dmitri (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh and PS, having the Prince of the Muhammad Ali dynasty fly over from Monaco to universal acclaim will also be removed. I missed that detail when I first wrote up this chart. Enough is enough. False Dmitri (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Update: I have completed rewrites for Kemet and the History section of Egypt. A lot of the text is adapted from material originally by Imperium Guy (and of course incorporating ideas from ForsakenPear). Hopefully I'll get to the other sections soon, but in the meantime please read and critique. False Dmitri (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
One final substantive change that I had not anticipated - in the absence of a Greece that is colonizing everything, it seems implausible that Egypt would be able to seize control of those Libyan oilfields. The arrangement made sense in a world where Greece was heavily colonizing both Libya and Egypt and conceded a portion of the oilfields to Egypt as a kind of compensation. But an independent Cyrenaica would fight to keep them, surely - and I don't think that Egypt would be willing to wage a war for territory, not after what had happened the last time. So I've kept it where Egypt annexes Kufra. Egypt tried to occupy some of those oil-rich areas but had to return them to Cyrenaica, in exchange for some kind of exploitation rights. But no direct pipeline to Egypt, that wouldn't stand. False Dmitri (talk) 02:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
One more update - FP did some work with the canal and the climate. So the prose has transitioned and reflects the new version. Some things need to be added, in particular an updated map and names for Egypt's recent presidents. False Dmitri (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

We're getting close to finishing off Egypt and dare I say it works quite well now. The population is three and a half times greater [than what it was previously in canon] but this is with the solid research of multiple papers and statistics breaking down the volume of different crops produced on the Nile and all their individual water usage. It's pretty easy to understand why Egypt was referred to as the breadbasket when we factor in the total volume of water used by water-intensive crops in the present day such as cotton and watermelon and come to realise had they been growing wheat instead of these, the present day nation would be (conservatively) able to feed over 200 million people.

Yea, the Nile is insane.

Even with the population rise, the region's population remains below pre-dd levels which I think is a decent balance. Everything else with the article works and as Fx works on fleshing out the Middle East things can easily be added to both Egypt and the Gulf States as thankfully there will be no issues with canon. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sicily

Hello to everyone, i'm Alessio, caretaker of the article about Sicily, i will expain down here in a handy and simple, table with a comparison of both versions.

Argument Old version New version
Formation of the republic Establishment of the state with a possible coup d'etat, not specified in the old article. Creation of an agreement between the Clans of Palermo, the Stidda (Clans of Eastern Sicily, independent from Cosa Nostra) and the regional government, alongside military officers present in the island.
Causes of the formation Decision of Cosa Nostra to control Sicily Managing the post-apocalyptic scenario and minimize any damage done by it, as well avoid any possible famine or rioting thanks to the influence of the Mafia, in return, the clans asked the drop of any former criminal charge against them and their associates and the capture of Totò Riina and his Corleonesi.
What happen to the Mafia? Consolidation of their power and via Fascist actions. With the drop of any charges against them, many will enter into politics, or turn their old illegal activities (Depending on what) into legal companies or corporations that are approved by the state, generating a small amount of economical revival alongside.
Form of government A fascist dictatorship run by the Mafia The government here will hold its first elections in 1986, after the creation of a new constitution, inspired from that of the old Italian Republic, the new form of the state will be a semi-presidential republic, deemed necessary because the parliamentary system is seen as too much expensive and too much consuming time.
Between 1984 and 1988 Period of relative peace, economical stability and martial law. The first decade after the war would see near to zero or zero economical growth or even stability, the main goal of the regional government is to survive and avoid any starvation or the possibility of revolts or riots, by 1985, Sicily had restored their electrical generating capabilities and continued to stabilise further. Food rationing, however, was still in place and people were advised to try to start producing food for themselves, this until 1998. In this, the mafia would come in handy by giving the government the resources necessary for a successful farming industry such as: fertilizers, seeds, terrains and other resources needed for the region to survive better than other nations.


The confiscation of Corleonesi properties also helped, providing housing for refugees to the island.

Reunification of the peninsula The military operations, done with the help of neo-fascist militias will be done in just over a year, from March of 1987 to December of 1988. The government in 1986 would hold various meetings with the Cheif of Staff (Army, Navy, Air Force and US forces) about a possible invasion of the peninsula for the reclamation of the land for the Italian provisional government, from 1987 to 1988 the armed forces would conduct exercises and operations simulating land invasions and long marches across dangerous terrains. The military operations would start February-March of 1988 and ending in May of 1990 with the capture of the Peninsula up until the ex-regions of Marche and Umbria and up until the Arno river.


Seeing the limited resources that the government would have, and acquire during the reconquest the invasion by sea of Genoa and Venice (is literally a fortress) would be scrapped in favour of land operations that would have passed via Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany by the year 1992 or after it.

Afterwards Cold peace between themselves and his neighbours, with economical developments and industrializations. On the 17th of March of 1991 the government would end to saw itself as the provisional government of the Italian Republic and declare the reformation of the Italian Republic, and declaring the current government the 46th national government; succeeding the 45th government of Bettino Craxi and entering the 10th Legislature of the Italian Republic.

With the stability in the reconquered areas of the peninsula, the government would start a process of economical reintegration and of investments in the poorest areas of the republic, also here, seeing how bad did the specified interventions of the pre-war government in motivating the local economy with industries (they were called "Oasis in a desert" for a reason), the government here instead would give funds to local authorities and local companies for let them choose what to invest and in what sectors. And also it will be in this period that limited trade relations with surviving governments and post-apocalyptic entities would commence, the most profitable trade partners for Italy during the 90s would be the Alpine Confederation, the ex-Yugoslavian states, the Hellenic Republic, the countries of North Africa, Israel and Turkey.

Foreign relations Not recognized by the international community until 2010 Italy would maintain radio signals with Malta, Tunisia, Libya and other Italian survivor states like Sardinia, after the reunification Italy would conduct two individuals operations in the Mediterranean Sea in 1991 for report how badly were affected the countries in Southern Europe and North Africa, as well as Asia.


Always in 1991 relations will be reestablished between Australia and Portugal during the expedition of the USS Benjamin Franklin and the submarine Albacora, both crews would stay in Palermo for a week until returning to their voyage, providing the Italian government with useful information about the status of the world and what did it happen in other nations, the Italian Navy will send two corvettes with the two submarines up until the Suez Canal, where the Albacora and the USS B. Franklin would split up.


After 2002 the relationship with Europe would change drastically, especially with the countries that are in the Mediterranean area, this didn't mean that Italy will be isolated from everyone like it is North Korea today, simply it will still maintain good relationships with other countries like Argentina, Australia, Mexico, Canada, USSR, Turkey, Israel, Scotland, Denmark, Colombia, Japan and so on.

Swift to authoritarianism Present since 1983 as it seems in the article. From 1985 to 2002 the provisional republic and after the establishment of the Italian Republic the state can be described as a dominant-party system democracy, like it was in Italy from 1946 to 1983 with the domination of the Christian Democracy in every aspect of the government.


From 2002 up until 2011 the Italian nationalist politician Paolo De Stefano would win the general elections after a series of attacks on Sicilians and an aggressive propaganda campaign to give to Italy his right place in the world and also to make Italy great again from the ashes of the war, he would gradually dismantle the democratic system that existed before gradually becoming an authoritarian dictatorship with inspiration from Mussolini's Italy and Pinochet's Chile in 2004/05, with time he would outlaw trade unions, various freedoms given by the constitution, banning every party that was against the current form of the state and the institution of a secret police and the set up of various penal colonies in remote islands for political dissidents and Libyan rebels, alongside common criminals and bandits.

I will also provide you of some informative links that can be useful for understanding cold war Italy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Italian_Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mafia_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_%27Ndrangheta_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piersanti_Mattarella

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corleonesi_Mafia_clan

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Economy#ref318073

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/The-economic-miracle#ref319102

Alex, Mal3ssio97 02:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest the following to allow for a more realistic Italian state to exist, but preserving existing canon:

  • Immediately post-Doomsday, the regional government of Sicily takes control of the island with support from surviving assets of the Italian Armed Forces and US forces stationed at Naval Air Station Sigonella, Comiso Air Station, and the Mechanized Brigade Aosta outside of Messina.
  • The Mafia begins to gain power in smaller communities as the government and military are focused on assisting refugees and securing fuel, ammunition, and food supplies as well as sending expeditions to the mainland for the same purpose.
  • Throughout the rest of the 1980’s, the Mafia slowly consumes all other organized crime on the island, drop the requirement that members cannot be related or involved with a person who is in the justice system, and grows in power in the smaller communities to the point it begins to take over the local governments and judiciaries.
  • Meanwhile, the government manages to convince Sardinia, Tunisia, and survivors on mainland Italy to join as a means of survival, and for future referendums to decide their status as provinces of Italy or independent nations.
  • It begins to buy up farms, businesses, hospitals, etc. seizing control of many necessities to survive and the organization begins to infiltrate the military. *There are attempts to prosecute them, but by this point it is beginning to become difficult due to the sheer amount of people who are involved and the number of corrupt judges, police officers, and government officials.
  • In the early 1990’s members of the Mafia openly participate in the election (not as members of the Mafia) and win the majority of votes, while some journalists and military officials are skeptical and believe there was bribery and intimidation (there was), they quickly withdraw their statements or disappear.
  • The Mafia government suspends elections on the cause of the ‘national emergency’ caused by Doomsday and arrests the remaining members of parliament not corrupted or members of the Mafia, ironically on trumped up corruption charges.
  • Surviving US troops and expats are expelled after their equipment and weapons are seized by the military. Most make their way to Greece or Malta.
  • The new government basically functions somewhat the same as the government they overthrew, however much more corrupt.
  • To distract people from the corruption, the government begins to pirate cargo ships passing through the central Mediterranean. When Greek, Spanish, and other governments protest and begin to defend their cargo ships with force, the Sicilian government manipulates the population into thinking they are being attacked.
  • This causes the First Sicily War, which is more of a Cold War where Sicily is raiding commercial shipping and small communities on the coasts of Greece, Spain, France, and Africa. These nations are retaliating by sinking Sicilian ships and detaining sailors.
  • The war continues up until the Second Sicily War as it is essentially a frozen conflict.
  • The Sicilian Government, with more discontent toward the lack of elections and public opinion beginning to swing that the national emergency can be suspended, invades Greece claiming that the pirates are operating from the Greek Islands. This triggers the Second Sicily War.
  • The war occurs as in existing canon.
  • Before the war breaks out, the ADC viewed Sicily as more of a nuisance than a threat and didn’t anticipate an invasion.
  • Post-war, the Atlantic Defense Community and Italian Peninsula Alliance make efforts to inform the citizens of Sicily of the government’s lies. This causes some minor protests which are quickly put down by law enforcement and the mafia.
  • However, this quickly snowballs from transparency protests to pro-democracy protests. The military violently puts down the protests.
  • The Sicilian Government demands the ADC stop interfering, however it denies culpability.
  • In 2013 a bomb takes out the leader of the protests and everyone points fingers at the mafia run government who claims that the person was making homemade explosives and died in an accident.
  • The CANZ and ADC demand an independent investigation (which doesn’t occur).
  • People’s anger, while for decades pacified by stable food and fuel supplies as well as security, rise up and take to the streets, demanding free elections.
  • The government agains violently puts them down, however this time the protesters get a portion of the military to support them, and both the ADC and IPA are covertly supplying weapons and hardware via submarine and air drop to the protestors.
  • After major fighting on the island, the Sicilian government is overthrown in 2014 and a new interim government with support of the IPA and ADC is formed.
  • The interim government holds elections the following year, in 2015 with the recently reformed Christian Democracy Party defeating the Democratic Party of the Left.
  • Immediately, the new government works with Greece to make amends, providing material and laborers to help rebuild the islands invaded by the mafia-run Sicily. It also supports an independent Tunisia and Sardinia however openly states it hopes for a future democratically run, unified Italy. However it’s neighbors are wary for good reason, but still with support from the CANZ and ADC agree to enter into talks. Both the CANZ and ADC believe by unifying into one nation, the moderates can help prevent a similar situation in the future. The ADC is hoping a reformed Italy would join the organization, strengthening it further. However, the Greeks are extremely reluctant given the recent behavior of the nation and major damage it took during the war.
  • Talks wrap up in 2021 for Sicily and it’s neighbors to work in tandem to repair infrastructure between the nations and a set goal to reunify Italy by 2040.
  • Additionally, Sicily agrees to join the ADC, albeit the Greeks are hesitant, adding another powerful member to the alliance.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

First of all i want to thank you Daesunglim for the critics and the review that you brought up, i already read them and many of them are well thinked and makes a lot of sense, however i have to dismiss some of your points, because they neglected the pre war history of the mafia, Sicily and what did happen in Sicily before the war, i will give you a summorize becuase those things would not happen.

  1. First thing off is the Mafia, you have to understand that between 1981 and 1984 there was a war inside Cosa Nostra, between the clans of Palermo and other cities and the Clan of the Corleonesi, this war was started by Riina, the boss of the Corleonesi because he wanted power and be the absolute ruler of Cosa Nostra, by 1983 only a few clans of Palermo remain alive, there will be this clans that would seek help from the regional government, and those clans are wealthy, unlike the Corleonesi, the main difference is that those clans were pragamatic and wealthy, meanwhile the Corleonesi were rutheless and violent, but poor. So just because a global war happen dosen't mean that Riina don't want to finish the job, no, now he is more incitated to finish the job and maybe also hit the regional government and be the absolute ruler of the island. Plus you have to consider the Stidda, clans that are indipendent from Cosa Nostra and that are located in Eastern Sicily (Messina, Catania, Ragusa, Siracusa and etc.) So here the clans of Palermo will seek out the protection of the regional government in order to stay alive, using the newly anti mafia laws of the same year the government will register any boss of this clans as a "Pentito", meaning a person who has reget their mafia oath and so in this case they have the legal requirements for give them freedom and liberty, in return the clans will help the government in the fist stages of the post war and also give any information that they have about the mafia, and in particular against Riina.
  1. The regional govenment would never expel the Americans or any NATO personeel from Sicily, because they are valuable assets with much needed military and speclialist skills, for example engieneers, technicians and so on, not to mentioning the man pool and the expirience that they have, so after a year, and realizing that the US is gone the forces of NATO and the US sign a document with the regional government agreeing to the transfer of their old country's equipment and ordinances to the provisional government and in return asking for citizenship and also to live in Sicily.
  1. I like your idea about the cargo ships, is a thing that the Italian government did implement before the war, it was called "Strategia della Tensione", i provided a link for it above this post so you can see what i was taking about, but i think they will also use raid attack on the border or even hiring bandits for doing this or ex terrorists.
  1. After the war in 2010 there was an earthquake in the northeast part of the country, it destroyed many towns and cities and it killed over 300 people and cut off that region for sometime, here the CANZ and the SAC, alongside the LoN could use humanitarian aids as a bargening chip, they will help Italy in rebuild in exchange for the end of the dictatorship, Di Stefano refuse this deal and this caused massive protest by the people, especially in that area and also the political opposition and the military would agree that enough is enough and they will ousted him, there will be a brief period of combined military government and civilian before announcing new democratic elections.
  1. Also about the ADC i disagree too, i very much doubt that Italians, even those who are democratic and antifascist would be willing to join an organization that just some years ago did attack Italy and bomb our cities, anti ADC sentiment will remain for quite some time. In my opinion the new foreign attitude of the republic will be that of armed neutrality, the maintaing of a strong armed force in order to counter any foreign attack, but it will be active in LoN decisions and peacekeeping operations, becoming a large manpool for the LoN in Europe. The whole situation will be similar to Serbia regarding NATO.

Mal3ssio97 23:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Gettysburg

Does anyone object to me increasing the population of Gettysburg? Right now, canon has the population at around 102,000 people. However, I expanded the borders as page was last updated in 2011 and I believe it is fair to assume in 10 year it would expand. Additionally, natural barriers are better borders than arbitrary lines splitting an area, especially while trying to organize a government.

I expanded the borders to the Susquehanna River in the east (original canon was halfway through York County which is fairly flat and indefensible), in the north to the State College border, and in the west to the edge of Franklin County, as there are some pretty substantial mountains and tributaries to the Potomac that would serve as a decent natural barrier.

The 1980 population of the area it encompasses was almost 775,000 people. While I know Baltimore and Harrisburg were destroyed, the radiation would have missed much of the territory it encompasses (I did subtract the population of the communities across the river from Harrisburg as they would be destroyed in the blast or irradiated). Additionally, there would likely be survivors (albeit limited) from the Baltimore metro area. I estimated that a 2020 realistic population would be 257,000 people, assuming a negative compound of 30% from the chaos and radiation immediately after doomsday (542,500) , 30% from radiation poisoning (379,750), and 40% from starvation, disease, etc, leaving 227,850 people immediately after Doomsday.

I have also updated the largest city to York from Gettysburg. In the region it encompasses, Gettysburg is like the 10th or 11th largest town at around 7,000 people. York has around 45,000 people, and Gettysburg is fairly isolated. Even Chambersburg, Carslile, and Westminster have larger populations than Gettysburg in OTL, though I did beef up the population of Gettysburg due to it being the capital.

I want to avoid changing canon too much, however one issue is that Gettysburg’s government is modeled off the US government and yet it is aligned with Virginia, a somewhat fascist military state. To rectify this, I have created a third party in Gettysburg called the Veteran Party, which is growing in popularity and calls for a similar style government to Virginia. It also is calling for Gettysburg to expand further east and west in a Manifest Destiny esque belief. This area is pretty far right in OTL, so I have this party rapidly growing and the ideas becoming more mainstream.

I am also creating a military page for the nation. My plan is for it to have around 15,000 soldiers with around 13,500 in the Army and 1,500 in the Air Force. The only body of water it touches is the Susquehanna, so I plan on treating any water patrol forces like I did with the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, in a riverine squadron.

From what I have found there are not many military assets in the region, again, similar to Susquehanna. Due to this, I will have much of its equipment coming from Virginia. However, in York there is a large Harley plant that I plan on stating it is restored with help from Virginia, albeit at a much smaller scale, and it manufactures motorcycles for military and civilian usage.

As far as foreign relations go, I plan that the government does not recognize State College or Reading as successor states to Pennsylvania and rejects their authority. However, it will have relations with all PA survivor states as well as Delmarva, the UC nations, and the Dixie Alliance nations. It will be in a political conflict with Delmarva over northern Maryland territorial control. If the group agrees, Gettysburg may also get into conflict with State College over the western border and Reading (and Susquehanna by proxy) over Dauphin Lancaster, and Lebanon counties.

I think Virginia needs to have its borders updated to encompass part of SW Pennsylvania and Gettysburg would support this, however this would draw it into conflict with North Pennsylvania and State College, both of whom claim that region.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Idaho Capital

I did some sleuthing and I don’t think Idaho’s capital makes sense, and contradicts between the United States and state pages. The United States page lists Salmon as the state capital, while the Idaho page lists Dubois. I don’t think either community are logical. In OTL, Salmon has a population of 3,112 as of 2010, and while it is a county seat of Lemhi County, it seems very rural. Dubois is even smaller, with 667 people in 2018.

Both Idaho Falls and Pocatello fall within the borders of the state, and neither were targets. Idaho Falls in 1980 had just under 40,000 people and Pocatello had just over 46,000 people.

The advantage of Idaho Falls is the seat of an agriculture district for the state government. So there would possibly be some government officials in the city. It is also a bit more centrally located and further from Deseret, which at Idaho’s foundation would probably have been a better location for security.

On the flip side, Pocatello is the location of Idaho State University. So again, likely there would be state officials there. Additionally, hosting a university would be advantageous.

What are people’s thoughts on this? Is everyone okay if I make changes to the US and Idaho page to update to one of these two cities? More than likely whichever city was the capital would be the largest city. However, I would guess the city would only have around 25,000 people or so, given the regional drop in population.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

From the history as written, I'm inferring that Idaho's capital is there because social collapse affected not just the direct target Boise, but the entire Snake valley where most of the population lives. The history focuses on a few sparsely-populated counties to the north of the valley, which formed the nucleus of the restored state of Idaho. From the text, the capital is still there.
Now that raises questions. What exactly happened in the towns of southeast Idaho? What were the immediate causes of social collapse, and what did it look like? And more importantly, what has happened to that area since the mid-90s, which is when the detailed part of the history stops? I would assume that survivors there would end up getting incorporated into the restored state.
Given that history, I think Idaho Falls would make a lot of sense as a capital, but unless you're going to change the history with a Review, this would have to be a recent, in-universe change. It would make sense: the capital shifted between Salmon and Dubois back when it was just a few villages in the mountains; but with statehood and the reclamation of parts of the Snake Valley, the government relocated to the much more convenient site of Idaho Falls. What do you think of that? Or do you feel that the history of Idaho needs some rewriting? False Dmitri (talk) 16:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so I reread the page and I completely misunderstood what was going on. It appears the original state of Idaho was only the northern three counties of Clark, Fremont, and Lemhi. Out of these three counties, in 1980, the largest town was Salmon, with 3,308 people (county seat of Lemhi County), while the county seat of Clark County was Dubois, with a population of 413 in 1980.

It also appears that Idaho Falls is actually a part of Deseret per the Idaho page stating that the state trades with a separate government in Idaho Falls, given there has been no nation created and Deseret contested southern Idaho with the United States for several years I am inclined to take this as Deseret controlling the city.

The state page and the Lincoln state page both indicate that Idaho received Idaho County from Lincoln in the early 1990’s (~1993 to 1995 [when Lincoln officially joined the PUSA]). Additionally it is canon that Idaho received an additional five counties from the contested region between Deseret and the United States.

Based on a county map of Idaho and the area increase stated on the state page, I assume that the counties gained (excluding Idaho County) are: Butte, Custer, Jefferson, Madison, and Teton. Though based on the area that the map covers, it appears Idaho also controls Adams, Binghamton, and Blane counties.

So I was wrong, I think both Idaho Falls and Pocatello are within Deseret.

Daeseunglim (talk) 21:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's understandable too, that's "Mormon Idaho." Nonetheless, this does point to the need of more detailed maps of the area. False Dmitri (talk) 22:13, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

So, opinions to correct this: should we clarify for Salmon, Idaho or Dubois, Idaho as the new capital?

Personally, I lean towards Salmon. It is about 5x larger than Dubois in OTL.

We should clarify what three counties formed Idaho as original joined the PUSA in the 1990’s and what five counties (beyond Idaho County) were added later on. I think that this will clarify a capital city better.

My presumption is that Clark and Lemhi definitely formed two of the three original counties. However Idaho’s page states that Saint Anthony (in Fremont County) is an exclave of Idaho in Deseret. Based on the map, I am leaning towards viewing this as an anachronism and making Fremont County one of the original founding counties of Idaho. Otherwise that would leave either Butte or Custer County.

I prefer Fremont County and removing the reference to St. Anthony being an exclave simply because I think the three counties (Clark, Fremont, and Lemhi) are the most logical. They all border Montana and Fremont borders Wyoming to the east. This would be logical for a PUSA state as it would give the state trade routes through two separate states and given the chaos of post-Doomsday is more secure in my opinion.

At this stage, I think we need to create county level maps for the US states (similar to how the map for Pennsylvania is detailed) to clarify what nations and states control what territory. It is very nebulous right now, especially regarding Cascadia, Idaho, and Lincoln.

I have a few other things I am working on in the eastern former USA, so I do not have the time to take this on, but I would like to at least toss this suggestion out there.

Daeseunglim (talk) 11:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Maybe the thing to do for now is to specify that Salmon is the permanent capital while adding more precise maps to the to-do list. False Dmitri (talk) 16:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Four monarchies

I have often complained about the excessive number of restored monarchies in the timeline. I've tried to count the restorations and every time I do, I get a higher number. As I have repeatedly said, even if each one of these were impeccably written and well justified, the overall effect would still be ridiculous. We all know why they're around, and it has nothing to do with the likely effects of a nuclear war: it's because alternate history people like fallen regimes and deposed dynasties.

But of course for practical reasons, we can't try to get rid of every single one of the dozens of restorations. Instead we need to identify the worst offenders and change them. I consider the following four to be the low hanging fruit. I'll briefly explain my criteria for choosing them, then I'll look at them one by one, and after that I promise to never bring up this topic again.

When looking at a storyline where a country adopts a monarchy that didn't have one before, the first thing to consider is the premise of the thing. How inherently plausible, or not, is the idea? Does it have a reasonable basis in the country as it existed in 1983? I'm calling this factor P, for Premise.

Second, we need to look at how well the idea is executed. Do we get a good explanation of how the country converted to this older system of government? How well is the storyline fitted to the facts about the country and to the timeline as a whole? I'll call this E, which can stand for Execution or Explanation.

Prussia illustrates why I think it's helpful to distinguish between these two factors. Its P is pretty obviously weak. East and West Berlin just sort of put aside their differences and hail the return of the Kaiserreich. But its E factor is much stronger. Many people have had a hand in it and done a lot to explain this strange turn of events, fitting it into the overall world of 1983DD. The four Reviews that follow are not like that. They're weak in both factors. The best way to improve them is to get rid of the monarchs.

I'm dividing this into sub-sub-sections for easier discussion. False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Lithuania

P: Lithuania's premise is weaker than Prussia's. Prussia had a royal person on hand who could sort of embody the past and rally people around it. Lithuania had nobody like that. The article has the people decide to adopt a monarchy and then go around looking for someone to lead it. Modern people do not think that way. People might feel loyalty, attachment, nostalgia for a person or a family. I'm very skeptical that anybody has those feelings for Monarchy in the abstract, outside our own very narrow circle here. Lithuanians with an appetite for historical restoration would instead look to a much more obvious model, the interwar Republic of Lithuania, which is of course what they did in real life.

E: The explanation is weaker still - nonexistent, in fact. Lithuania has no written history beyond a list of nuclear targets. Honestly it should never have been graduated like this. How can anyone claim that this is a realistic development of Lithuania if nobody bothered to work out that development? This isn't NationStates or random worldbuilding, it's a timeline. If a country is going to do a weird thing, it has to be historically justifiable.

Solution: This one is simple, just change "grand duchy" to "republic" and delete the paragraphs about the monarchy. And then it really should be marked Open For Adoption until it has someone to write a proper history. It might even be worth it to suspend the section on International Relations, which would mean pausing the decision on whether it's a Nordic Union member or not. Without a history from 1983 onward, we really have no way to decide if that's a realistic development or not. False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Courland

P: This one is weaker still than Lithuania. While the historic Grand Duchy of Lithuania can be seen as an era of national greatness, the historic Duchy of Courland was a time of subjugation. Courland was a colonial regime in which Latvian serfs worked under a German ruling class. This would be like a breakaway state in India calling itself The British Raj.

E: It's better than Lithuania in that it actually has a history written, but the monarchy gets only one sentence: "On July 15th, 1984 the local population declared the re-establishment of the historic Duchy of Courland." Definitely not enough to explain why they would do such a thoroughly weird thing.

Solution: Even simpler: just remove that one sentence, and replace Duchy with Republic. False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Cambodia

P: At first glance this one seems to make sense. The Cambodians restored their king in OTL, so we know it's a plausible move to make. But then we look closer and realize that the king was nowhere near Cambodia in 1983. There would seem to be nobody to crown.

E: The article says that the heir (and OTL current king) was crowned instead of his father. But he was living in France at the time - also nowhere near Cambodia, and anyway probably also dead. The article makes no attempt to explain this and seems to assume that he was nearby. Anyway, the page is extremely short and doesn't go into detail about much of anything.

Solution: Make Cambodia a Republic. Also mark it as a stub and open for adoption, there's really not much there. False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Orleans

P: This is one of the oldest pages in the timeline, so its venerableness obscures the inherent silliness of the premise. The Duc d'Orléans sets out with a retinue and hacks out an enclave by force. This maybe isn't inherently crazy, but the idea that such a venture could be successful and long-lasting is hard to believe. But what makes it extra silly is the location. The Duc goes to Orléans without considering any strategic or practical concerns at all. He goes there because... Orléans is in his courtesy title. It would be exactly the same as Prince Andrew wandering up to Yorkshire and deciding to take it over, because he's the Duke of York. It seems inherently frivolous. Stepping back a bit further, Orleans seems to have been the first chapter in a story that was going to end with a restored Kingdom of France, something that's perhaps not as implausible as a Duchy of Courland, but is definitely worse than Prussia.

E: Earlier, I had thought about handling this via in-universe changes. Keep the foundation story, but have the Duchy dissolve at some point due to the intense difficulties of running a state so close to the ruins of Paris. But when working on Nuclear power I discovered that Orleans is flanked by a pair of nuclear power plants, in an area that faced utter collapse in the 1980s. Even if the engineers at those plants shut them down successfully, they then would have to maintain them in an environment with no order and no resources. If you don't keep the pumps working in a shut-down plant, the decay heat from the fuel will still cause a meltdown, and that's almost certainly what happened in the plants near major strike zones like Paris.

But even if you handwave the nuclear plants, Orleans has nothing to explain how a small armed group was able to take over the territory, maintain stability in a very rough region, and then achieve legitimacy in the eyes of "civilized Europe". It just sort of happens, and the explanation is not enough to justify the story.

Solutions: I have two possible solutions. The first is to simply thank the page for its service to the timeline, mark it obsolete, and move on. It's a highly implausible idea that no longer fits with the more realistic direction that we want for 1983dd.

If we are intent on saving the Duchy, I would re-work it by having the Duc stay closer to Monaco, where he would have more access to resources and not as many threats from other random armed groups. If he stays in or near Provence, he could create his Duchy as a dependency of Monaco. We know that Monaco is a decentralized confederation of city-states; the Duc's enclave could be one of them. He could even use the name "Duchy of Orleans," naming it after himself; as in, "I'm the Duc d'Orléans, and welcome to my Duchy." It's still rather weird and megalomaniacal, and it could be portrayed as such. And it need not last until the present day: Jacques is 80 years old now. In TTL there's a good chance he died already, and when that happened his territory could be folded into a neighboring Monegasque dependency.

I don't have a strong preference for either solution. On the one hand, the nation is implausible and we may be better served by simply getting rid of it. On the other hand, maybe respect for this very early work means we should make an effort to save it in some form. False Dmitri (talk) 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Having already looked at your sandbox for this, I definitely do think you make a strong case for abolishing these four monarchies. In the case of Orleans, I definitely think it is time to thank the page and mark it as obsolete. I simply don't think it fits in well with trying to fix up the major gaps present within the timeline and thus marking it obso is the simplest solution.

Cambodia could work with the monarchy abolished, but I guess it would depend on how strong the desire to have a monarch would be as they might be able to find a distant claimant to the throne. Having said that, them staying a republic could work especially if there is inertia involved. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I like your second solution for Orleans, as it lines up with a thought I've had on these many monarchies before. It's not unreasonable for someone with vaguely royal blood to rise up through the chaos in Europe and declare themselves ruler of some region or other, nor is it far fetched to suggest some loyalists might go along with it. What shouldn't happen, however, is the state lasting and thriving even. I think moving him to a small region in Provence is not a bad idea at all, and doesn't completely wipe all that work from the TL.

The two Baltics states I agree with, easy fix there and barely touches the canon.

Cambodia I think is still recoverable as a kingdom, but I agree with the minor issue of 'who would it be then?'. What I will perhaps suggest as a weird but interesting solution: the constitution is re-established with the previous king as head of state, who, though likely dead along with his son, is declared king in absentia. Otherwise, the state functions as a democracy. Essentially, if we just acknowledge the king is not around, we can otherwise retain canon. I know it's an odd suggestion but I thought it could be an interesting route to go down. FP 10:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Cambodia could also go the route of interwar Hungary and set up a regency, I suppose. The big problem is that the communist regime was not at all kind to the royals. Most went to France, others scattered to other places, but I think that everybody left. In such a situation I can imagine a regency, hope still being high. But how long would they wait, and what would they do once it was clear that there were no surviving royals? Maybe Cambodia needs a proper writer before that can be answered. False Dmitri (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, there would need to be a big power shift away from communism, like OTL, before any restoration could take place, however it's not far fetched that it could happen by the 90s. There's something of that already on the page, but it's not explained very well and is a bit brief. I'm not super familiar with the strength of royal sentiment in Cambodia, but perhaps we could have, over the regency, a growing number of citizens clamouring for the abolition of the monarchy, while the royalists are desperately searching high and low for someone they can declare a proper king or queen.
But overall, I think compared to the other three you've highlighted here, Cambodia is the most salvageable. But yeah, needs a writer who knows what they're talking about haha. FP (talk) 12:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
OK that's a nice fix, keep Cambodia in a suspended state, awaiting both a final resolution and a dedicated writer. False Dmitri (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

You know me guys, i asked since the start about the abolish of any European monarchy that died whithin 100 years, i know that some make sense and can be restored as well, prime examples being Spain, Belgium, Nethelrands and Serbia, but any restoration like those mentioned above are all just attempts to make monarchists happy. Mal3ssio97 00:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I have attempted a re-write of Orléans along these lines. I'm now leaning rather strongly toward keeping this version of it out of respect for its creator. I'll still mark it obsolete if that's the overwhelming opinion of the group. False Dmitri (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
I decided to do some looking to confirm some of the details of Jacques' story, and can't find any evidence that he was anywhere near Monaco (or anywhere else) in 1983. All I can say for sure is that he was cut off from the family fortune and living as an ordinary citizen. His chances of survival were no better than anyone else's. Given this total lack of reliable information, I'd be a little more willing to mark the whole thing obsolete. False Dmitri (talk) 00:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

You have my full support about this one Ben. Alessio

Libya

I was going to wait until Egypt was all squared away before posting this, but work on Libya is now in full swing, so it should be discussed. This is the final step of the review of Greece, which had been overpowered with colonies covering Lower Egypt and most of Libya. Removing those colonies means that we need other states there. This component of the review affects two existing pages and needs one new one:

  • Libya - The history immediately following 1983 won't change much at all and in fact serves as the starting point for the other pages. But references to Greek colonization still need to be removed. I haven't really started anything here.
  • Cyrenaica - formerly this was the page for the Greek colony covering most of Libya (not just Cyrenaica itself). Now I'm planning to have the region emerge from the Libyan Civil War asa kingdom; the crown prince was in Tripoli in 1983 and would be well placed to return to power here. In order to avoid changing too much in the Second Sicily War, we'll have to posit close economic ties to Greece, including some sort of defensive agreement. Most likely this means Greek investment in oil, which Cyrenaica has a lot of. The rewrite is maybe half done, and the war page will then need to be brought in line with it - mostly minor changes.
  • Tripolitania - A new page, marked as a proposal. This region did very, very badly in the civil war. It then falls victim to Sicilian expansionism - the republic saw it as an opportunity to resettle refugees. After the war, it becomes a shaky independent republic where those refugees coexist precariously with the Arab majority. The initial writing here is basically done.

Please comment and suggest changes here. It will be nice to have finished the "new Greece". False Dmitri (talk) 14:22, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Tunisia

One other issue that need to be solved and rewritten is Tunisia, as it stands right now it conflicts with the newly history of the region and shows a little bias, mainly those about making the Tunisian royal family important all of a sudden and the Sicilian invasion, too much brutal and in my opinion unnecessary. Imp was going to take care of Tunisia and transforming it into an allied of the Italian Republic just for their own benefit, and get rid of the monarchy. Mal3ssio97 (talk) 00:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Basically, to expand on what Mal has written, the path Tunisia follows is one that is problematic. So from the new climate model post-DD that we are now working from allows for Tunisia to see an average doubling of rainfall for the next 4-5 years post-dd. This should have allowed for strong crop yields easily feeding the people of the nation. On top of this, Tunisia was uniquely suited as being small enough to avoid food problems but large enough to have a somewhat solid domestic industry as well as the ability to beef up its army to defend borders for what would be both Libya and Algeria collapsing into chaos.

In the current plan, Tunisia should be able to punch south into Libya and capture the few oil fields in the west of the nation - completely bypassing the chaos that unfolds in Tripolitania, with the caucus belli being that they are invited by Gaddafi to help stabilise his regime. They take one look at the chaos, and decide "no thank you" but use the opportunity instead to strike south. This provides them with some oil fields, which they would have to develop on their own and something which will take time. But it is a good "investment" so to speak.

We still need to work out what happens with Algeria as at least one of the states was meant to be a Greek puppet so that too will eventually have to be put for review. Now the question will be whether Tunisia will take any Algerian land as with the Algerian state exploding into chaos, the Hassi Massaoud and Hassi R'Mel oil fields would be very very tempting targets. On the other hand, Tunisia may instead just look to arm the group most likely to win and claim concessions on the oil from those fields.

This also ties into the article where it states Tunisia was not able to maintain its equipment. This is another problematic point as Tunisian industry, although small, does have technical proficiency and would have managed to open a couple armament factories specialising in bullets and munitions before eventually expanding into parts and wholesale small armaments. This is reflected in the reforms they undertook to produce and export mechanical and electromechanical equipment. They also have a decent amount of phosphate, something which would likely become very precious quickly too.

This ties into the whole Sicilian war. It is much more likely that Tunisia is viewed as an allied authoritarian regime when Sicily expands out into Tripolitania - a region where the Italians had a historic claim and is much weaker than Tunisia instead of being a target for Sicilian expansion - something which would likely lead to disaster when fighting with a Tunisia which has had to increase their force size when compared to OTL just to survive the chaos around them.

All in all, although Tunisia will struggle, it would likely be one of the nations that would eventually prosper and become a regional powerhouse. I fully expect it to be one of the rare states that has a population larger than OTL. As for it joining the ADC, this would be pretty straightforwardly accomplished with a change in govt which prompts them to switch sides and essentially "pull an Italy on Italy". Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 05:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

This review will have to happen in conjunction with Sicily and Second Sicily War. False Dmitri (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, the other reviews and proposals relating to Greece will need to be finished off first. Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

United States Largest City

There seems to be a matter of disagreement over the largest city in the United States (country). The original canon from when the timeline was structured circa 2009-2011 listed Fort Collins, Colorado as the largest city. However most of the US states have one (or two for Dakota) cities that were fairly sizable in Doomsday and may have grown since then. I have a list below of cities that could be the largest, their 1980 population, and a reasonable explanation for them being the largest city.

(Please note, I know not all these cities are listed as the largest in their state, but I am simply putting them down as pre-Doomsday they were large cities in their regions)

  • Colorado
    • Fort Collins: 65,092 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Denver and the surrounding metropolitan area. Also, somewhat central for the United States so it could end up being a hub by 2020 for east/west trade.
  • Dakota
    • Fargo: 61,383 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Minnesota and later from what would become Lakotah
    • Sioux Falls: 81,182 (1980)
      • Similar possible growth reason as for Fargo.
  • Kootenai
    • Missoula: 33,338 (1980)
      • Possible growth due to absorbing refugees from Helena and surrounding communities as well as smaller towns near nuclear missile silos and later refugees fleeing the racist regime in what would become Lincoln
  • Lincoln
    • Coeur d’Aline: 19,913 (1980)
      • The city saw the racist regime take control of the area post Doomsday and from reading the Lincoln page it seems the population was concentrated in the cities. I am not sure about refugees from Boise, but some may have ended up in the city. In OTL, the city grew rapidly that in 2020 it has a population of around 53,000 people. Obvious OTL rules and conditions don’t apply, so I know we cannot hold this to be true, but it is just a thought.
    • Spokane: 171,300 (1980)
      • Similar reason as above for Coeur d’Aline, however I would argue that Spokane should be the largest city in Lincoln, but I understand the fighting in the city likely drove a large portion of the survivors out of the city and destroyed infrastructure. Also, proximity to, and trade from Victoria could spur growth.
  • Montana
    • Billings: 66,798 (1980)
      • It is the closest city to Provisional Canada and would likely be a major trade hub for the two countries. Also being the capital city of the North American Union would spur economic growth and urban development as both political and business leaders would set up shop in the city.
  • Oregon
    • Newport: 7,519 (1980)
      • Being totally objective, this is absolutely a stretch. While similarly to Salem, it likely absorbed refugees from Portland, a town of this size even doubling immediately post Doomsday isn’t anywhere close to other cities. The only reason I mention it is because the city is a major (only?) port in the United States. This would definitely spur major development in the region and could increase the population exponentially. At a bare minimum I would argue the city is plausibly the second largest in Oregon.
    • Salem: 89,223 (1980)
      • It is the largest city in Oregon to survive Doomsday, would have absorbed refugees from Portland, and likely any people who wanted to leave Astoria.
  • Wyoming
    • Casper: 51,016 (1980)
      • Being that Wyoming does not have many large cities, Casper was the largest city in the state on Doomsday (Cheyenne only had 47,283 people in 1980). The destruction of Cheyenne and missile silos in the state would have driven survivors towards the next largest surviving city.
    • Torrington: 5,441 (1980)
      • As the capital of the United States it would have seen growth. But I don’t know if it is realistic to have grown that substantially even in ~40 years. However I could very well be wrong and if I am, I take this back.

Based on pre-Doomsday, the cities largest to smallest are: Spokane, Salem, Sioux Falls, Fort Collins, Billings, Fargo, Casper, Missoula, Coeur d’Aline, Newport, Torrington.

I do think that Scottsbluff, NE and Dodge City, KS will fall on this list, but I don’t think either would be a contender for the largest city.

I do believe Spokane will have been depopulated heavily from the fighting, Newport and Torrington I feel are too small to have grown that substantially in less than four decades to grow larger than cities like Salem or Billings.

This is my personal opinion (and please comment your opinions)

  1. Billings (~150,000)
  2. Salem (~140,000)
  3. Fort Collins (~135,000)
  4. Sioux Falls (~75,000)
  5. Fargo (~60,000)
  6. Casper (~50,000)
  7. Dodge City (~45,000)*
  8. Missoula (~40,000)
  9. Torrington (~40,000)
  10. Scottsbluff (~30,000)*
  11. Newport (~20,000)
  12. Coeur d’Aline (~20,000)
  13. Spokane (~15,000)

Possibly by 2030, Salem will overtake Billings as the largest city as trade with the APAC region increases and the port in Newport expands. I think Billings in its position as the capital of the NAU and a larger pre-Doomsday population are the main impetus for growth.

(Astris denotes cities I don’t think are likely to be the largest cities)

What are the group thoughts on this?

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.

Air Forces

Something I have been considering is Air Forces in North America by survivor states. Obviously nations that would have had aircraft within their borders and major infrastructure survive as well as contact with other nations, such as Mexico, Canada, Victoria, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas, possibly the United States, and possibly Provisional Canada could have fairly substantial air forces comparatively given its involvement in the ADC and trade with the Nordic Union and Celtic Alliance. Mexico and Victoria would have a domestic industry that they could heavily rely on as well as trade with South America and Oceania respectively. Alaska and Hawaii were in somewhat decent contact with Australia and New Zealand immediately after DD and are both protectorates of the CANZ, so they likely would be well equip (especially given Alaska’s bordering of Siberian held Alaska), Texas was in contact with Mexico and they both seem to be on friendly terms, and the USA/Provisional Canada likely had enough surviving industry and oil fields they could keep some aircraft operational, though time would absolutely take its toll and replacing aircraft would become increasingly difficult until trade with Canada, Mexico, and Oceania increased.

Nations like Vermont, Deseret, Florida, and possibly some of the countries located around Lake Ontario could keep small air forces through trade with friendly nations (namely Canada, the NAU, and SAC) as well.

But the more I think about it, I feel that most survivor states in North America couldn’t support an Air Force of any meaningful size or capabilities or at a minimum would be utilizing almost exclusively piston driven aircraft. Nations like Superior, Kentucky, and Virginia all seem to operate jet fighters and turbo propeller driven bombers and transports from their pages and I wonder if this would actually be unlikely.

The nation I worked on, the Commonwealth of Susquehanna, I have been debating if I should get rid of the Air Force all together because I’m not sure if it could actually support aircraft given its relative isolation and lack of fuel.

Converting planes to LNG, biofuels, etc. is extremely difficult and time consuming and in OTL, the technology has been slow and difficult to adapt. Heavily damaged nations that likely are economically on par with Eastern Europe or parts of Africa equivalently in OTL would absolutely struggle with accessing the technology required to make these adjustments.

Military aircraft are notoriously parts and time intensive and large scale air combat is much less likely in the former USA, especially given the Balkanization and that there are other superpowers. The only major war I can think of that involved significant air power in North America was the Saegunay War. Even Virginian and Kentucky attacks on gangs that used air strikes could have easily been performed by artillery.

I am not saying these nations shouldn’t have air forces, I’m just wondering if there isn’t too much leeway being given, especially considering the severe damage to information and infrastructure the US mainland sustained.

Daeseunglim (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: I got rid of Susquehanna’s Air Force. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was unlikely given its location in rural Pennsylvania far from nations that would produce enough parts to maintain them. Ground vehicles are a lot easier to maintain, so I left those and increased the number of cargo trucks and added an air defense company (radar and surface to air missile launchers) to the Army National Guard (I do think that is plausible).

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

You know this issue need to be bring over to Europe as well some nations would not have the capability or the resources in order to maintain a air force, even a minimal one and with reverse engineer equipment, nations like Rhineland Confederation, Waldick, San Marino, Sapmi, Lancaster and others in my opinion can't for various reasons maintain an effective air force or even one in a good shape.

Only nations like Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Prussia, Italy, Spain, Romania, Bulgaria Greece and Portugal have the capabilites, the infrastructures and the resources in order to have a good air force and mind you, not equipped with the latest aircraft vehicles, but with much more old equipment or even salvaged from other countries like MiG jets being used by Italy and Prussia. European air forces except for 4 or 5 will look very similar to any otl African or Asian airforce that isn’t in a good shape. Alex (talk) 21:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

ADOPTIONS

Archive 1

Adopting the Sicilian Mafia

Hi to everyone, i'm Alessio, the owner of the page about Italy, i formally request to adopt this page too, as is connected to Italy and viceversa.

My intent is to maintain the feeling and the ideas of the page, as they make sense and they are realistic, what i want to do is expanding on some topics, like how the Mafie changes after the war and become companies and corporations, legal in the eye of the state and of the world, how this companies are using front operations for still practice illegal activities like the smuggling of drugs or weapons.

As well helping and supporting outside mafie and giving them funds, for example in France, Delmarva, Texas, Canada and also reviving support by the clans located in Australia and South America, i would also as well extend the operations of the mafia in places like Atlantic City or Toledo and Victoria.

Alessio (talk) 07/07/2021 16:39 UTC+1

Adoption of Vietnam page

Good evening, I'm 1234chernobyl, want to request the adoption of the page of Vietnam, as it's connected to Southeast Asia and vice versa.

The intention of my adoption is changing the general idea of Vietnam based on the 1983's plausibility combined with a minority of the original author's ideas that's seems to be plausible and viable to the situation. It's must be clear that the Communist Party at the peak of íts' popularity during the transition from Soviet-style communism to a renovated one. At the same time, if Hanoi was nuked, the base of the conservatives (and some central reformers) was destroyed and local reformers would rise in the VCP.

There are some current, former and future Politburo and Central Committee members that were still alive, one even be groomed as the General Secretary (Nguyen Van Linh) by the reformists. Tobias (Perseus Potter) and I, again, would extend it into a more moderate and plausible way.

1234chernobyl (talk) July 16, 2021.

Yes, reading Vietnam more carefully you're absolutely right about that. An anticommunist government comes to power for no real reason. I don't think there's any evidence that anybody there was harboring nostalgic feelings about pre-communist or South Vietnam; so even if the regime did collapse it certainly would not come out looking like that.
As with all reviews, the goal is to keep any ideas that can be kept. Perhaps fortunately, the page is short, so there is room to add a lot. I would recommend keeping a military takeover following 1983, maybe followed by the liberalization that it hints at. Vietnam's international role as a partner of ANZ should also be kept if possible.
False Dmitri (talk) 02:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Adoption on the Republic of Castille and León

Good evening. I´m CentraleuropeDD, and I would like some permission to adopt the page of the República Unida de Castilla y León.

After some research, I had been planning some expansion of the page, adding some extra information about the country, it´s goverment and editing some changes of territory, as a conquest of Burgos, avoid some asturian claims, and giving some pre-doomsday history and contest in the region.

For the history of the region after Doomsday, I propose this: After Doomsday, the JSC of León (under Manuel Cabezas Esteban) should had been restoring communications, and having their HQ on the Palacio de los Guzmanes of León. While the Campoo region, crowded by refugees, should had been created after being seceed from Palencia province. Maybe the first contact of this part was with the Cantabrian autonomous goverment, led during Doomsday by José Antonio Rodríguez, and helping refugees along the

·Talking about the administrative divisions of the confederation, it can be divided on 5 areas: -León Province (where the capital is located) -Bierzo Autonomous Zone, created after an agreement with Galiza (capital: Ponferrada) -Campoo-Tierra de Campos Province, the breadbasket of the region, in most of the former Palencia province -Region of Cantabria, with the capital in Santander, the main harbour of the region, and with a regional assembly called "Asamblea Regional de Cantabria" -Burgos province, rebuilt since 2010

·Military and small changes When the rocket launcher artillery Regiment Number 63, stationed in the garrison (Acuartelamiento Santocildes) of Astorga (and other bases like the Base Conde de Gazola, in Ferral del Bernesga) and the troops from the Academia Básica del Aire in the León military airfield stood in the region instead of leaving, their garrisons decided to serve the Civilian Junta of Leon that in 1985 took again the power in the province. Along the militias, former policemen and civil guards and other recruits, they are the main forces of the army of the Republic. The army is equipped with Star B pistols, CETME Model 58 rifles (from the Guardia Civil depots), some artillery (105/26 Reinosa howitzer, and the Teruel MLR). The Leonese air force haves pre-doosmday planes as the CASA C-212 Aviocar, and a Beechcraft Bonanza from the Villanubla Air Base that joined the leonese forces in 2010 and was repaired.

CentraleuropeDD (talk) 10:46, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

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