Talk: Confederate States of America (Muscle Shoals) (1983: Doomsday)

Good job Brian. One thing, though. Have you personally compared the two constitutions. I once went looked at a site that had the text of the Constitution of the CSA with different fonts to show additions or subtractions since the CSA laid out their constitution with the US constitution squarely in front of them. All the new CSA had to do was choose whether or not to retain the changes -- there were very few, really -- or go with the original USA. I looked for that site but found this one instead : http://www.filibustercartoons.com/CSA.htm which lays the documents beside each other and comments on the changes. The only things most modern "rebs" would change would be the references the sale and ownership of slaves.

I think the reasons you give for the end of the "Confederate experiment" in the mid-south were good ones. It is a shame that such infant states could not get along (there were only four of them) better. It is strange, though, that some thought that their small federal government had too much power. The (P)USA, in drawing up the 1991 Constitution, was two large states and three small ones dependent upon a strong central government for survival. At the time they had a common enemy, so the changes they made were mostly cosmetic. Their first president took charge, and if they had not followed the US Constitution so closely they might still have the same president twenty years later!

The provision for one term presidents may have been the new CSA's biggest mistake. Twelve years with one man at the helm may have been enough to grow stronger. SouthWriter 01:50, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

This was mainly about getting the page started...there's certainly time to further review the two constitutions and further clarify how this nation's constitution was put together. BrianD 14:54, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Presidents

I assume that Rick Hall was the mayor of Muscle Shoals, or a state congressman from the town. Good catch, South. I'll try to get a list of Presidents in the next few days while I'm filling out the history. You know, this thing may end up being a lot of fun to work on!BrianD 03:05, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Rick Hall was a music producer, writer, performer, etc. who founder of FAME (Florence Alabama Music Enterprizes) Recording Studios. He moved the studios across the Tennessee River to Muscle Shoals in 1960. From George Jones to the Osmonds to Alabama, he has written and produced for over fifty years. He was in his heyday in the 1980's. He is a 1985 inductee in the Alabama Music Hall of Fame. He was indeed a "good catch." I figured someone with as many connections as he had would be a natural. I doubt if he had any real competition in the general election of 1985. He would probably have still kept his hand in the music industry, though. From reading the Wikipedia and Alabama Music hall of Fame articles, I'd have to say Muscle Shoals would most definitely have to be the "new Nashville" of TTL! SouthWriter 03:52, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

::Sounds like you've already started researching Presidents! Hall presumably would have served from '84 through January 20, 1986, when the new President took over...unless Hall decided to run, and won. The list of Presidents should look like this:

• 1984-86 Rick Hall (I-Muscle Shoals)
• 1986-92 Rick Hall (I-Muscle Shoals) or someone else
• 1992-98 second President
• 1998-99 third PresidentBrianD 04:05, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Dick Jordan in 1998? Jordan is a Florence native, and by this time Florence, Muscle Shoals and the rest of Alabama would have been the heart of the country. BrianD 04:13, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Impressive resume! This makes Alabama the "Virginia" of the new CSA. And from the looks of it, Jordan might just be the man to bring the CSA back from the dead.

For the second president, why don't we you see who you can find from "Mississippi"? I'll search the files of Rome, Georgia for a candidate. SouthWriter 04:28, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Will do. He likely will be from Corinth, either a local politician OTL or a Congressman from the region...unless I find a record producer or other celebrity :)BrianD 04:33, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Edward S. Bishop, mayor of Corinth in 1990. I thought of using Jerry Clower as a Presidential candidate, but he was from Yazoo City, which is about 20 miles northwest of Jackson...which if he wasn't too close to the blast site, would probably be too far away from Corinth. Unless you wanted to stretch the CS Mississippi state border down to the ruins of the former US state capitol.from Liberty, very close to Hattiesburg and Natchez...and to probable bombed sites. BrianD 03:12, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Haley Barbour the OTL governor of the great state of Mississippi may be a potential candidate for the job if not he could end up as a governor of one of the breakaway city states.He was from Yazoo City as well --GOPZACK 03:13, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

::Maybe. Hmmm. This doesn't nail down where he was on Sept. 25, 1983, but if you read between the lines he may very well have been in Yazoo City that night. Question would be, if he was, then how did he get to Corinth and would he have risen quickly enough to become governor of the state and a Presidential candidate in 1992? BrianD 03:18, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

The center of Yazoo City is 40 miles away from the center of Jackson. From city limit to city limit, you have about 32 miles. Unless a rather large bomb or a lot of moderate ones took out the capital (not likely). Yazoo City is not listed on the list of the authoritative WCRB report. It looks like a good place for survivors to find "greener" pastures, I guess. Yazoo City may have recieved survivors from Jackson, in fact. Both Natchez and Hattiesburg, while good-sized cities and farther away than Yazoo City. If anything, Yazoo City would have become a regional capital - perhaps even with some of Mississippi's government (why would they end up in Hattiesburg, for goodness sake??)

The info looks pretty clear, Barbour would be working as a lawyer in Yazoo City that weekend (well, not actually -- he's a Presbyterian and he would have taken Sunday off!). SouthWriter 05:59, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

South do you think Yazoo City would join the CSA or remain a independent city state? If it is the latter Haley Barbour could very well be a suitable leader. GOPZACK 17:14, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason why it could not become a leading city of northern Mississippi. As the counties formed a new founding state of the CSA, it would certainly get involved. In those early days there would have been strength in numbers. According to the article on Hattiesburg, the government that escaped had done so to the south, leaving Yazoo City to make it on its own. I'd say the city would have welcomed an alliance with the northern counties. SouthWriter 17:40, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

The authoritative WCRB report apparently is becoming less so as the days go by....Yazoo City should be part of the Mississippi state government (whose existence partly explains why Hattiesburg could not govern the entire state!). It would welcome any stable regional government. The Hattiesburg government consisted of locals; in many areas, provisional state governments were exclusively or primarily formed by locals, not state officials who died in the blasts on the state capitols. BrianD 23:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Once this article has been graduated I would like to make an article for Yazoo City seeing as we seem to agree it would be a viable survivor state. --GOPZACK 18:24, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

I'll add it to the infobox later, but I would propose that America the Beautiful or God Bless America be the official national anthem, and Dixie as the popular anthem (the one they sing at ball games, concerts, etc.). I don't know if anyone would remember God Save the South, and also there wasn't any hatred for the USA (remember, the South was one of the most patriotic regions of the entire US at the time). The Star-Spangled Banner would not work for obvious reasons (but would be sung on the 4th of July, when the CSA celebrated the US's birthday). BrianD 03:10, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Another little quirk: the CSA declared itself to be at war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact (including Cuba), and declared itself to be an ally of the United States and NATO. The states and towns followed suit, and today many of them still have it on the books.BrianD 04:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Claude Harris, Jr. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7615512 BrianD 02:04, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Bobby Denton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_E._Denton BrianD 02:06, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Political divisions

• Alabama consists initially of the U.S. Congressional Fifth District.
• Mississippi of the Corinth area, west into Holly Springs National Forest, south into Tupelo
• Tennessee from Bolivar in the west to Tullahoma and Winchester in the east.
• Jackson would join in 1987, maybe, as its own state.

• Georgia joins in 1988.

• Kentucky (primarily McCracken, Fulton, Graves and Hickman counties) joined in 1989.

BrianD 04:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Map of the CSA (Muscle Shoals). Key: Arkansas (blue), Missouri (yellow), Kentucky (light blue), Tennessee (darker blue), Jackson (purple), Mississippi (red), Alabama (grey), Georgia (green). Nuked areas - Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta - marked out in black.

A map of the proposed boundaries of the CSA. Ignore the key. Arkansas is actually in light blue, Kentucky in purple, and there should be a few counties in TTL Missouri adjacent to Kentucky and Arkansas that are in yellow. Also, Memphis would be in black as well. The second draft of this map should have all the fixes, plus Birmingham and Huntsville no-go zones in black.BrianD 22:56, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro, South and Zack and anyone else - do you have any thoughts on this first draft of a map? BrianD 01:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm impressed. It clumps the six states together nicely. Even with the loss of Kentucky to the Commonwealth, I think this shows promise for "rebirth" sometime soon. I'm wondering how the CK (and their allies the VR) is going to react when these citizens rise up peacefully to assert their sovereignty so close to the DA.. I am also pondering the relationship to the Associated States of Appalachia (RoP, BR and ET) will have to their historic kindred. SouthWriter 02:57, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Eight states at its height, South. Five states currently, assuming the Dixie Alliance has taken over Jackson (we'd need confirmation from Zack on that) and that Missouri and Arkansas are in some way associated with the Dixie Alliance. What if CK decided to join the CSA?

The Associated States of Appalachia is (obviously) new to me. What did you have in mind regarding a history? BrianD 03:02, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I mentioned a proposed association a while back (I didn't search to see exactly what I called it back then), and I think that the three states - and perhaps a redeemed northeast Geogia if our agents can instigate an internal takeover of the Taccoa Falls government - are not "Dixie Alliance" types. Our histories rose up fairly fast, and I figure by 2000 we would be working together anyway. Perhaps a summit at The Wilds in North Carolina. It is pretty close to the borders of all three states -- and to Georgia if they become "friendly."

But that's a discussion for another place. SouthWriter 03:23, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jackson right now is occupied by troops from Kentucky and for practicalities sake I would think it would become a part of Kentucky seeing as Kentucky already claims/occupies that region. One question for Brian, the "CK" who are they? They wouldn't happen to be the Commonwealth of Kentucky would it? ;)--GOPZACK 03:32, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

The CK is indeed the Commonwealth. That's me doing abreviations again. And just because the CK occupied the rogue city-state (and once state capital) does not mean it "belongs" to them. That might be the way of the Virginian Republic, but so far occupation has only lead to annexations when the citizens agree to such. If the region of western Tennessee wishes to revive its democratic government, then it should be able to become a separate state, free to associate with any alliance or nation it chooses. SouthWriter 03:58, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Oh I agree South, I was jut thinking out load there. As for Kentucky joining the CSA I think it would depend on how much sovereignty it retains. if it is a confederation that allows its member to govern their own internal affairs I don't see why Kentucky would not join. I would also assume that Cape Girardeau would follow suit. --GOPZACK 18:24, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Put Blue Ridge and East Tennessee on board for the Appalachian alliance, South. Zack, this is where we would need to examine the idea of states' rights, and what was it the Confederate founders in the 19th and 20th centuries intended. How would you accommodate Kentucky, and what concessions in turn would Kentucky need to make in joining the CSA? I assume independence is very important to Kentucky at this point. A big part of the 1980s CSA revival was to prevent a strong central government from interfering in local and state affairs and from regulating everything in sight. On the other hand, a shared economy and shared defense was seen as more beneficial to the member states than eight different economies and armies. Tennessee, for example, had a lot of jurisdiction over itself but in the end, in some regards it was part of a nation, not its own nation. Failure to settle on the balance between the two played a role in the dissolution of the nation, and would need to be settled concretely if it was revived.

On a side note, I look forward to hearing from the veterans of this TL on this concept. This is intended not to sneak in another big nation in the former US, but represent a nation that started after Doomsday and did not survive to the present day, and for relatively mundane, political reasons. It also could represent a nation that forms decades AFTER Doomsday. Why the states don't simply join the Dixie Alliance, and their affinity for the idea of the Confederacy having lasted this long, would need to be explored and explained. BrianD 01:59, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Here is a new map. Let me know what you think.BrianD 02:15, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

second draft of CSA map

This fantastic Brian, so long as South ok's it I don't see why this cain't be the official map for the old CSA. :-) GOPZACK

a composite of the first two drafts

03:03, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Here is my composite of the two maps, showing the strikes within and along the borders of the second draft. I added a little to Alabama and Jaskson. The southern tip of Georgia (SW of Atlanta) probably sould be clipped. SouthWriter 04:18, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

We're getting there, guys. BrianD 04:21, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I notice that the map in the article is still "Take One." How about we change it to my map, with the note that is attached to "Take One." That will reflect the new CSA at its height. I am saying this hoping that this article will be accepted as feasable and graduated, given the present climate among the editors of this wiki.

Strikes

Russellville, Arkansas is listed as a primary target and Savannah, Georgia is listed as a secondary target. I think its very likely both were destroyed (in fact Savannah is already listed as being destroyed on the Doomsday article) and should not be listed in the infobox as cities of the CSA. Mitro 19:05, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

The Savannah in question is Savannah, Tennessee not Savannah, Georgia --GOPZACK 19:40, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Ah IC. Well is Russellville the same place I think it is? Mitro 19:47, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

You are incorrect, these maps show the distance between the two locations. --GOPZACK 19:52, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand the purposes of the maps. I realize that I was wrong about Savannah, but it looks like the Russellville mentioned in the article is the one that I think is certain will be nuked. So what is the purpose of using those maps. There is a Russellville, Tennessee, but that is located where Blue Ridge is now, not on the map you showed me. Mitro 20:00, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Never mind. Brian just messaged me on Facebook that its the Russelville in Alabama. Mitro 20:04, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

-

Sorry Mitro I misread your comment, I thought you implied that the other Savannah was near Rusellville. My mistake there, forgive I'm running on minimal sleep. I agree with you on Russelville as you can see from my original comments I only contested the part about Savannah. --GOPZACK 20:08, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Mkay nevermind then GOPZACK 20:08, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Russellville Alabama not Arkansas; Savannah Tennessee not Georgia (both of which, besides being too far away, would also be radioactive craters). FYI, Blue Ridge is in North Carolina.BrianD 20:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Did Lynyrd Skynyrd survive or were they just big fans (like myself) of their music? --GOPZACK 02:14, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Who knows? With them, and other celebrities, you would need to establish they were in a non-nuked area on 9/25/83.BrianD 02:17, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynyrd_Skynyrd#Hiatus_.281977.E2.80.931987.29 BrianD 02:23, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like the band probably would have never re-united in TTL. At least not in any big way. The legal battle over the use of the name, though, would probably be hard to wage.! SouthWriter 02:47, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I agree South, but you never know, from what I can see most of them ended up in Jacksonville which got nuked pretty bad. The only guy I can confirm alive is their current keyboardist Peter Pisarczyk who would have been in Vermont & would have never met anyone from Lynyrd Skynyrd if they did survive. However I will do a little more reseach & see if I can find EXACTLY where they were. Wish me luck :-) --GOPZACK 02:50, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck. I can't even find local politicians very often. The web might be everywhere, but there's still a lot of stuff that just is not on line. SouthWriter 03:03, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

no joke. : ) Wingman1 17:20, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Virginian/Dixie Stance on the CSA

The Virginians, being as their only concern as of late is regional stability, not territorial gain, would be very supportive of the CSA. Because one nation is commonly more stabilizing to a region than five or more the Virginians would be very eager to help the former component states of the nation "get the band back together". Naturally any sucessfull attempts to do so would definitely result in negotiations to bring said nation into the Dixie Alliance. Since more peaceful territory brings more income into the region, the Virginians could be thinking with their wallets instead of their guns for the first time in their entire existance.

Yankovic270 03:12, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, a defense budget can take a bit out of the loyal citizen's pocketbook! And any Virginian worth his salt would make a voluntary contribution if called on to do so! But then, a better economy ALSO brings more tax revenue into the nation's coffers, doesn't it? SouthWriter 04:02, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

And of course, a peaceful region provides more income for its resident nations than a war zone. You can't farm or mine well when there is a constant threat of Bandit attack.

Yankovic270 15:07, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

This is where states' rights would become extremely important and crucial. How much of its independence and authority would Virginia want to give up? How could the CSA accommodate the Virginian Republic? BrianD 01:48, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Thinking ahead...

In 2014, possible states in a CSA revival that merges with the Dixie Alliance:

• Alabama (capital: Florence or Tuscaloosa)
• Arkansas (capital: Jonesboro)
• Blue Ridge (capital: Asheville)
• East Tennessee (capital: Morristown)
• Georgia (capital: Rome)
• Kentucky (capital: Elizabethtown)
• Mississippi (capital: Corinth)
• Missouri (capital: Cape Girardeau)
• Piedmont (capital: Greenville)
• Virginia (capital: New Richmond)
• West Tennessee (capital: Jackson)

BrianD 01:46, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Although Louisiana, Hattiesburg, Natchez and the half-dozen states in Texas - and Broken Bow and Dinetah for that matter - were in OTL Confederate territory, I am leaning towards them have their own alliance, of sorts. The Texases should eventually reunite and lead the alliance. I don't see much common culture between Hattiesburg/Natchez/Louisiana/Texas and the Muscle Shoals CSA/Appalachia/Dixie Alliance having developed post-Doomsday (distance one key factor). The only common ties would be historical and rooted before DD. The two groups certainly would be political and economic allies, but culturally different enough to remain politically and economically separate. Maybe they would reunite in 2060, when the Siberians and Cubans launch their invasion of North America ;-) BrianD 02:05, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, if that happens, I think that the Southern Alliance should include a solid block -- encircling the Gulf of Mexico from Brownsville to Key West. The states would include:

• Texas (united)
• Oklahoma
• Louisiana
• lower Mississippi
• Neonotia (Southern Alabama and Georgia)
• Florida (united)

Meanwhile the USA could expand to include:

• the Dakotas
• lower Minnesota
• northern Iowa
• Lincoln over to Victoria
• Pasco Free State/Cascadia/northern Oregon
• Montana
• Wyoming
• Nebraska
• Colorado
• Kansas

The Atlantic Coast would need to be developed quite a bit. It presently has only:

• Aroostook
• Vermont
• Outer Lands
• Delmarva
• Outer Banks
• Georgetown
• Darien (part of Neonotia)

So we went from the CSA to three large "nations" and one possible east coast alliance. We might just get our act together by 2076 -- or just for historical balance 2083. --SouthWriter 03:07, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

That is for the "Future Wiki" :) Or a Future of North America 1983: DD article.

The way I see it, right now you have one major power bloc in the south: The Dixie Alliance. The second power bloc, if you will, are the Appalachian States. The third bloc, potentially, is the city states that made up the former CSA. Then there are the non-aligned city states like Selma, New Montgomery, Outer Banks, Neonotia, Florida, Anderson, Jackson, and who knows what other small towns and the like still have yet to be discovered. And overshadowing them all are the League of Nations and Mexico, who IMO is to the south what OTL United States is to Central America and the Caribbean.--BrianD 04:14, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Good point, Brian. This is not a future time line wiki. But we have to look at where we might want this story to go, getting a vision for what decisions our "real time" leaders need to make in order to survive in the chunky soup that has post-doomsday America has come in 27 years. Many of us are not even sure how our states got to where they are today (knowing only who our leaders might be given who is around now and where they were in 1983). I still have not reached the twenty-first century on any of my story lines -- Piedmont, Neonotia (see Georgia), various PUSA states and the PUSA itself. SouthWriter 05:38, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

May I remind my esteemed colleagues of the WCRB Future Geopolitics thingy-migidigy.HAD 20:31, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Religion

Looking over the list of US states at the Catholic Church Wikipedia article, I'd don't see how there could be a 20% population in the Catholic Church. Of full states represented, only Missouri lists as having a 20% Catholic population. In descending order from there we have:

• Kentucky, 15%
• Georgia, 13%
• Arkansas, 9%
• Tennessee, 9%
• Mississippi, 7%
• Alabama, 6%

Assuming populations of Catholics in the counties represented the same as the states, and that the states are evenly populated - both not true, but for easy calculation - we get a population of 11.5% Catholic. In reality, the Catholic populations of Mississippi and Alabama were mostly on the coast, and of Georgia in Savanah and Augusta.

I changed the mention of the PCUSA (founded by merger of PCUS and UPUSA on June 10, 1983) as a "more conservative denomination" to the PCA (founded in 1973 out of the PCUS). I am a southern Presbyterian and know the history -- I lived it! I attended the 4th general assembly of the PCA when it met in Greenville, SC, in 1977 and have been a member of the denomination since 1980. SouthWriter 17:46, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Adoption

I'd like to adopt this article. Mscoree (talk) 20:08, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

You'll need to speak with the orgional author about that. Zack 20:17, February 12, 2014 (UTC)