"Racist" sounds like such an imprecise term. Maybe I'm tired of hearing students use it for everything, maybe I'm tired of hearing obvious racists insist that "I'm not a racist", I don't know. But can I suggest "white supremacist" instead? Labelling groups as "White supremacist guerrillas", governments, etc. seems more grown-up somehow than just calling them "racist". Maybe it's that racist is a subjective value judgement, whereas white supremacist tells you exactly what they're about and leaves the reader to make the judgement. Benkarnell 23:50, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
- Great idea...I'll change it. BrianD 00:00, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
Forming an alliance
I see on the Blue Ridge page that they are considering combining with East Tennessee, but the League of Nations wants the "states" to adhere to historical boundaries. Since it does not look like Kentucky is going to want to become a "state" of the Virginian Republic, perhaps the bits of SC, NC, TN, and KY can form as a Confederation as a foil to the expansionist dreams of "Virginia" SouthWriter 03:20, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
It's inevitable to me that the various citystates would look to establish ties with one another, SouthWriter. They would look to establish ties with stronger survivor nations like Kentucky and Piedmont that have maintained American freedoms and values, but wouldn't use their strength to roll over the smaller citystates into submission. There would be skepticism regarding Virginia's military ambitions and whether it has become the equivalent of a military-ruled third-world state (EVERYONE loves to wear military clothing, even in their off hours? C'mon). There would also be a willingness to engage with it, because of common roots, and encourage it to open up and restore freedoms to its people. Even to the point of welcoming Virginia into some sort of alliance. And, these citystates would be open to military protection and economic help from a Mexico that seems to have significant internal influence by American refugees (who would be more sympathetic to their brethren than Mexican nationals angered over the 'American war'). BrianD 05:17, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
- By the way, I pulled up a map of Tennessee and marked some of the eastern counties to get an idea of how many adjacent counties we are looking at. Kentucky is huge, and I'm surprized they gave up control of THEIR eastern counties to Virginiia! But our three smaller states, or portions of states, form a "tri-state" region with its center somewhere near Asheville. I can see there being an alliance of just those three if Kentucky gets too powerful (with its military, and its wealth, I can see why its neighbor Virginia is wanting to claim it -- fat chance!)SouthWriter 05:56, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
- GOPZACK and Yank would be able to explain the Kentucky/Virginia alliance. The way I understand it Virginia got into eastern Kentucky before Elizabethtown did; by the time the E'town government started expanding across the state, Virginia was well established in eastern Kentucky. As I also understand it, Kentucky is every bit as powerful militarily as Virginia. BrianD 07:16, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
I know the system I set up for Virginia isn't pretty, but it got the job done.The article for Virginia clearly states that this system made it the first to recover economically. They are hardly a third world nation.For your information the Virginians are currently using their military forces to help restore peace and stability for the region.They don't subsume other survivor states. Rather they help them back on the road to recovery.The government, although militaristic, is not North Korea. There has been a restoration of democracy, as the conditions that caused the dictatorship had been averted as the region became more stable.By the time that happened the military had been etched into the Virginian psyche.The only way to secure both your pride and right to vote is to serve at least two tours of duty. In Virginia the only to be a truly proud Virginian is to serve your time in the military.
Supersonic91 05:44, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
I had written that the Virginians had mounted exploratory missions of the surrounding states. Since they were undoubtably as chaotic as the former state of West Virginia was, the Virginians would follow up the recon with military forces to stabilize the area. Since the Commonwealth of Kentucky was late in its expansion, the Virginian hold on their section of Kentucky would have strengthened. When the Commonwealth arrives, the Virginians note the military strength of the Kentuckians, and decide they would make a valuable ally. They would give the Kentuckians support, begining the Virginian policy of giving generous aid to the weaker nations. Since then the two nations have forged extremely close, friendly relations. I could even imagine the two leaders being on a first name basis.
Supersonic91 05:59, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Yank, I'm not trying to criticize Virginia, but look at the country as it might be viewed in real life. I don't think I've said this, but I rather like the Virginian Republic and how you have developed it. Going by your reaction to others' reactions re: Virginia, it seems that the country has become rather misunderstood - the 101st did what it had to do to survive, then build a country that would last, and is trying to reestablish democracy and be a part of the community of nations, not North Korea. Virginia helps make this timeline more interesting, IMO. I know we've had words in the past, but you're doing well. Keep up the good work. BrianD 23:35, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe, having re-read the account of the history of the region, the population is a mere 80,000. The "wars" that have come and gone cannot account for the decimation of a population of at least a million survivors to less than ten percent of what it used to be. In fact, I am beginning to think that the dystopic vision of a total population in the former USA of only 20,000,000 (about a tenth surviving) may be far too pessimistic. Our will to survive is far greater than we might think, especially if the bombs were more on the level of 1 megaton each. Even at 10 megaton each, the reported explosions leave a lot more survivors than we are now assuming.
If we can assume that half of the population of Eastern Tennessee survived the first five years, that would leave about 500,000 in 1988. Then, at a meager 1% growth per year, by 2010 (22 years) you would have about 511,000 in the region. The only way that the population could be at only 80,000 is if only the cities mentioned in the articles (combined population est. 118,000 at Doomsday) were the only populations to survive, and come under "control" of the Morristown provisional government. If that population was recuced by half, and then increased by 1%, your estimate is correct. That would mean that only the extreme eastern counties are included, and that only urban populations are counted (mountaineers probably would stand about an even chance!) and that no smaller towns are included.
How much of the state does the Morristown government claim? My proposed map was about two counties wide (about twenty, I think), but the area that historically is included as "eastern Tennessee" is over 30 counties, and includes Chattanooga. I used the Tennessee River as the boundary.SouthWriter 20:12, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
- You're probably right on all accounts. I do remember having higher population counts on other articles revised downwards in the past by the other editors, who saw such figures as too optimistic. It is possible that as we revise the population figures upwards, that in this timeline the governments are having to constantly revise their estimates (especially as new citystates and nations are discovered and formalized censuses are taken). Let me revise the figure upwards and see what happens. (Give me your thoughts on the other nations mentioned in the WCRB report, if you don't mind...and leave them on their respective countries' talk pages. GOPZACK has taken over quite a few countries in the region)
- I agree with South on the population figures. I think enough people have died in Doomsday & the aftermath to call this dystopia so I don't see whats so bad about revising some populations upwards. I'd be interested in working with you South on revising some nation's populations upwards. --GOPZACK 03:24, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
Taking the worst case scenarios - major cities being wiped out by multiple warheads and military bases with single ones - I go on the assumption that 90% of the people in the city, 50% of those in the suburbs, and 25% of those in the metro area have been killed. The survivors then find their way to surrounding cities. The cities, without electricity and communications for the most part, end up losing about half of the new populations in the next five years or so. Then the population begins to build up at a 1% rate per year. Not all areas would have a worst case scenario, however. For instance, here in South Carolina the cities nearer to the blasts would absorb refugees and subsequently be abandoned. The cities of the upstate would have fared better than some places, even re-establishing electricity far sooner than other places.
I'll look over the populations around the south - especially your jurisdictions - and see if they need revising.SouthWriter 16:32, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
I like the idea of the Piedmont dollar being made the official currency of the tri-state area. This makes sense because of the early establishment of the currency and the continued stability of Piedmont ever since Doomsday. The date of the agreement seems about right as well.
An aside. I actually visited Tennessee and North Carolina yesterday (Saturday, Aug. 7). I was in Tennessee for less than an hour (drove up just for the drive through the mountains). I took a wrong turn in Asheville on the way home and ended up on backroads all over Western Carolina trying to get back home in the dark!! If it had been in the daytime, I could say I had seen parts of NC that I'd never seen before (and I've lived 35 miles away from it for 34 years). SouthWriter 17:39, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
- I bet the drive was beautiful. Blue Ridge and East Tennessee had been using U.S. dollars, and barter. The Piedmont dollar was a way to stabilize the currency and get everyone on the same page economically. BrianD 17:48, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
Indeed it was, the weather held with partly cloudy skies in late afternoon. We didn't leave Greenville (64 miles from Asheville) until 4:00, arriving at our stop in Tennessee about 6:30 (we detoured trying to find "Bat Cave"). My wife was driving so I got to see quite a bit. If I can find the hardware, or figure out how to "send" the pictures to my email, I will upload pictures I took with my cell phone. I forgot to grab our digital camera!
I would never have thought of the stabilizing nature of the Piedmont dollar. Are they tying their remaining US dollars to the Piedmont dollars, or do they need them to be converted (by stamping)? The transfer of dollars to Piedmont banks on a one-to-one basis would be feasible, I think. The banks would just ship P$'s to TN and BR, stamp the $'s and put them in circulation in Piedmont. --SouthWriter 18:32, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
- I believe they would have been converted.BrianD 18:45, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
The larger, and more stable Piedmontian economy, backed by both agricultural and manufacturing facilities still in operation, would indeed work well. Thank you again for respecting my article by so easily incorporating it into yours. --SouthWriter 19:39, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
ASSA - new alliance
I just had an idea, about the alliance between the three states, and others that might come before further reunification of former US states into the re-established USA. Instead of the Alliance of Appalachian States, let us consider the Alliance of the Southern States of America (ASSA). "Southern" would tie into the regional allegiances, and the "America" would show a respect of the heritage which no amount of regional pride can extinguish.
- The only thing is, I fear the Thompson tanks, rolling through Asheville in vengeance for rejecting the Alliance. ;-) Seriously, the alliance I'm definitely down with. Other regional nations, like Rome and Outer Banks, could be involved with this as well, as could the CSA states. BrianD 19:45, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
In deed, the DA - or whatever they try to go by as "Dixie" carries to much baggage - is formidable. I don't think the VR will ever join the ASSA, and the CK and its satellites will probably go along with the VR in what they do. However, Zack is proving to be quite a lot easier to work with than Yank. So there is hope. I see that Yank is rebuilding the capital at Lincoln, RoL, and fails to honor Bush as president. Strangely, I'm sort of in agreement with that sentiment.
Anyway, the isolation of the Florida republics, and the possibilities for success of "Neonotia," give some promise to a unified south, even without Louisiana (which I fill may lean towards independent Texas. This will leave it hard to have a continuous USA, but not impossible.--SouthWriter 23:56, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
- Louisiana and Hattiesburg would gravitate towards Texas because there is as much shared history there as Piedmont would have with Rome. Broken Bow, the Arkansas and Missouri citystates were written by GOPZACK (I believe) to ally with Kentucky. Zack also took over Tennessee (Waynesboro) so I'm not sure what he wants to do there. However, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia (Rome) are wide open so we can do with them whatever we want. Selma, Alabama could join up with anybody and could end up being a link between the proposed ASSA and the Texas/Louisiana/Hattiesburg alliance. The latter alliance of course would possibly join the NAU, as I think Midland is looking more west than east right now. BrianD 00:37, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- I see your point, Brian, a continuous USA will be impossible without some co-operation with Zack. However, it seems that Zack may be willing to make concessions due to the friction that Yank is causing. For example, if the USA salvages Oklahoma, the city-states in its southeast may agree to go along with the rest of the state. The proximity of southern Arkansas to Oklahoma may be enough to bring Hot Springs on board. This depends on a survivor city-state in Oklahoma hosting survivors from Oklahoma City. The two city-states in the SE don't seem to have fit that description. --SouthWriter 02:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- I've always supported a return of the USA in some shape or form. As for Oklahoma I always envisioned Broken Bow and Hugo along with whoever else still resides in the State would join the USA in the West as the state of Oklahoma. GOPZACK 02:44, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I think of Oklahoma as one of the states that has relatively few people living in it (Kansas being another). I want to be careful about adding survivor towns/cities there just for the sake of it...if we add one (probably at either Norman or Stillwater, which I know only because they're Big 12 schools), we better have a darn good reason for keeping it in isolation the past 27 years.
Here's the FEMA list of targets:
Altus AFB, Clinton-Sherman AFB (Custer), Tinker AFB (Oklahoma City), Vance AFB (Enid).
Secondary: Fort Sill (Lawton).
Tertiary: El Reno, Tulsa, 10 miles southeast of McAlester, Oklahoma City.
Perhaps something out of Bartlesville or Stillwater?BrianD 02:46, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- As we have seen in the past few months, the "27 years of isolationism" is largely an illusion. The only thing we know for sure is that the southern hemisphere authorities were incredibly inept at following up on the presumed destruction of their allies in the northern hemisphere. Mexico, as a survivor, should have been able to keep communications open and established order within a decade, but that was not written into the story. And so it goes.
- Oklahoma would probably be allied with Texas, but it is worth looking into to see what comes of this. I understand why Texas may wish to stay out of an restored USA, but most states are not as loyal to their state as Texans are. And thanks for finding the archived list of targets. That will help a lot as we try to breathe some new life into the time line. SouthWriter 03:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- ::My point, South, is not to lock down Oklahoma from ever having any survivor states but to prevent a deal where we end up with Tulsa having miraculously survived the nuclear war and having half-a-million people living there. If we go back and write in, say, Stillwater as the capital of a provisional republic (and it gets canonized), then other articles have to be rewritten to reflect it. Texas, and Broken Bow, and Mexico would have to be rewritten to reflect it. I don't see hundreds of thousands of people living there, but at the same time I don't see why there wouldn't be pockets of people dotted across the state...given the dozens of civilizations that have been canonized in North America, it might be good to have one area that has people, but is totally unorganized and a challenge for anyone who shows up to go in and restore order.
- ::As far as Mexico, one of the storylines in 1983:DD seems to be that for years after Doomsday, everyone thought the U.S. was a desolate, nuclear wasteland full of death. They just assumed it. That's why Reagan left. That's why Mexico didn't go up and restore order. Mexico has enough resources to go in and help bring survivor states back to the 20th century. It doesn't have enough resources to restore order throughout the former US. I say that as its caretaker, and having yet to update Mexico as dealing with Yucatan on its southern border and with drug lords within its own borders.BrianD 03:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I originally had the Lincolnites honor Bush, but I decided to change it to Reagan. Why? Because Reagan was the last official President of the United States. The Lincolnites would probbably view George H. W. Bush as a cowardly traitor who sold out America. They would also view his "Provisional Administration" was nothing more than an Australian puppet regime. It's an unfair, and biased, opinion, about Bush and the APA, but the Lincolnites aren't likely to care. And what's all this talk about reuniting the United States? Since this is a live timeline, and this would likely take 100 years (if it even happens) why am I seeing a rapid increase in pro-USA opinions despite the absolute fact that it is not plausible to reunite the United States. Even if the United States comes back, it is likely to be the Provisional US in the NAU and nothing more.
Yankovic270 01:30, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- South, thanks for the kind words its been great working with you & Brian. If I may make a few comments here, I think the Dixie Alliance is out living its usefulness, especially if Virginia thinks it can use to create puppet states out of Kentucky and the other smaller states. Kentucky & its satellite states would no doubt gravitate towards the ASSA.
- I retrospect I regret putting Kentucky in the Dixie Alliance and I'm thinking of pulling them out. The other agreement with Virginia could stand, seeing as it is just a free trade agreement. GOPZACK 01:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- Whatever happens here, I do think the objection will be raised by veteran editors like Mitro, Benkarnell, Louis, et al that the south is too far away from the western-based PUSA to effectively be a viable part of it. Remember, even though this is not quite the dystopia some think it should be, travel is effectively at a 19th-century level, and the interstate and railroads linking east and west are effectively gone (though they could probably be rebuilt). Air travel is very limited, probably to military, the LoN and small planes around Texas, Vermont, Canada, Victoria, et al. The PUSA question in regards to the South should be worked through, so we know yea or nay on the issue and, more importantly, why. The idea of the ASSA allying itself with the PUSA also should be explored (I'm in favor). BrianD 02:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
The Virginian Republic is not a puppetmaster. I had thought that what the Kenkuckians did they did of their own free will. They are just as strong as the Virginians, and I had thought I showed as much. I thought we were close allies. When did I alienate you GOPZACK? I feel like I was just stabbed in the back! The Dixie Alliance is furfilling an essential purpose. It is helping these smaller states grow strong enough to stand on their own. I warn you, the Virginians are likely to be personally offended by Kentucky's betrayal, as am I. They are not the type to forget slights any time soon. Every time I read those words: "I retrospect I regret putting Kentucky in the Dixie Alliance and I'm thinking of pulling them out." I get so angry.
Yankovic270 02:30, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
When did you alienate me? Well you've answered that one for yourself. And don't give me this "Virginians are likely to be personally offended by Kentucky's betrayal". We all know the sediment is fueled by you and not "What the Virginians really think". No doubt Virginia will be saddened by Kentucky's departure, but if they are the sultans of peace and not a puppet master you'd think they would understand. But they wouldn't, because rational diplomacy is blinded by your reactionary tendencies. GOPZACK 02:40, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I'd figured that any other survivor state in Oklahoma would be based out of Guymon, in the panhandle - the area would have received little to no radiation, and is far enough from any strikes to have made it without massive refugee issues.
Lordganon 04:04, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- There you go. If we end up writing up the survivor states we've been creating, Lordganon's suggestion would be one to consider. Stillwater (home of Oklahoma State University) is another, assuming it wasn't on top of or too close to a blast site. BrianD 04:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Stillwater is roughly in the middle of a triangle between OKC, Tulsa, and Wichita - while it would be relatively free of radiation, I suspect there'd be quite a few refugees.
Lordganon 04:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- That'll end up being the next discovered citystate. Now we need to figure out how it stayed quiet all these years. BrianD 05:23, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
That's quite a leap, Brian! I agree that it's about time, but it was sprung on us all at once, wasn't it? Perhaps a little more back story might be in order. Also, the reference to the East "Kentucky" Alliance most certainly is meant to be the "East American Alliance," I would think (you mention the EAA in the same sentence).
The close ties to the EAA of Tennessee bring into question how close Blue Ridge and Piedmont might be to that alliance as well. I still think that since the EAA is still 'controlled' by militaristic Virginia (sorry Yank), another alliance between Tennesee, Blue Ridge and Piedmont would have developed long ago. We never did 'make it happen' but the proximity of the three states makes it almost as likely as the EAA to have happened sooner than later. We could write it into the history without violating canon if we are careful.
One more thing, the reuniting of the state might be easily tied in with the overtures of the USA in expanding (along with the efforts of the CRUSA) as a result of the rising of the "American Spring." Once again, Brian, you have added life to a fading project. I guess we can thank Mitro for the boost at the Alternate History Blog of his. SouthWriter 19:41, September 9, 2011 (UTC)
It was rather sudden, wasn't it? :)
I thought it was time, and past time for Tennessee reunification to happen.
I thought the Appalachian alliance was the alliance you referred to? I am assuming it's already history, just not yet written up satisfactorily.
The East Kentucky thing was a typo, easily fixed.
As I see the Tennessee region ultimately choosing to rejoin a reunited U.S., this could easily be tied into the CRUSA and the new government out west. First, though, I have a feeling the southeastern states will ultimately join together as a confederation/economic bloc. BrianD 21:41, September 9, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, we had just about decided that the three states would have joined into some agreement long ago. Next, I guess, the two ends of North Carolina are going to have to work on something. I'm thinking with connections, though covert and disavowed in the past, with South America (Brazil) will open the coast up to much needed refined oil - or even fuel oil - from refineries in the Caribbean community now that the LoN knows there are communities there.
- I think it is about time that Toccoa is disbanded by the Appalachian Alliance (or whatever we are calling it) due the preponderance of evidence against the terrorist state. It's been over ten years, and I think its time to take action to free the citizens from the regime. I'm pretty sure the covert operatives there have worked up enough unrest that the regime should fall easily. Which brings the wonderful characters (or should we say diabolical characters) you created to my mind. As much as I have attempted to keep Piedmont to 'real people,' I am not sure I'd be able to come up with real names to hatch such a plot that is "Toccoa."
- Anderson is another problem, but I think if we consider the quarter century and the otherwise 'good behavior' since the war ended, some sort of peace treaty should end the armistice there. It will never join the other states of former South Carolina (I still have to work on bringing Florence and Georgetown back), but perhaps it can prosper in its own little way along side those that do rejoin.
- Enough for now. Its good to see some activity again. --SouthWriter 04:03, September 10, 2011 (UTC)
- All that sounds fine to me. I'll do what I can, though the weekend isn't quite the best time for me to work on updates. BrianD 01:25, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
It's February 1st East Tennessee has been reunited with Jackson Waynesboro, and Portland, for 1 month. I feel someone should make a Republic of Tennessee page .Goldwind1 (talk) 03:43, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
This article is seriouly out of date. It sys that East tnense was going to unite with several neibors on janaury 1 2013 and that was over 4 years ago. I feel that a page for the republic of tensece should be made. Lordganoon agreged but he said I shouldn't be the one to write it. Are any of the athours of the induvail tenencee surrivor state articles still around and willing to make a page for.Goldwind1 (talk) 16:45, March 26, 2017 (UTC)