Ultra-China! That doesn't seem too likely, though.--Sikulu 15:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know... Have you checked this out? ? The Mongol Empire was possibly more extensive than even mine, and it was built in far less than 100 years. Also, the Mongols had only a tiny fraction of the population that China had, and was barbaric. Imagine the Chinese taking the best of steppe warfare and combining it with their technological knowhow and great numbers... Anyway, thanks for the comment. --Riction 01:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Interesting discussion point though. The very reason the Mongols were so successful is because they were barbaric. They were nomads and carried their homes, women and children with their armies, essentially putting their entire population through the rigours of military life. It ensured the children grew up understanding the martial lifestyle and gave the Mongol armies the great mobility which enabled them to cover the expanses they did. The fact that they were 'barbarians' and came from the harshness of the steppes means they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by conquering civilised peoples. On the other hand, what motivation do the Chinese have for leaving the lifestyle available in perhaps the most advanced civilisation in the world to venture out into Central Asia to fight and die? There was rarely need in OTL for the Chinese government to do that as when peoples in what we now call western China went into decline (as they inevitably did) they tended to accept Chinese suzerainty without the Chinese having to send one soldier.220.127.116.11 10:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- Have you read "The Years of Rice and Salt"? It deals with a super china, and might help respond to the questions regarding it. I know that China views itself as "The Middle Kingdom", the kingdom that doesn't necessarily need to grow, because other peoples come to it. I'm impressed with this timeline and would love to see it more fleshed out. Louisiannan 14:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- The expansion could have started with the intent of getting rid of the barbarian's threat once and for all by bringing them into Chinese civilisation.--Marcpasquin 22:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments, Louisiannan and Marcpasquin. I haven't read "The Years of Rice and Salt" but I just checked its Wikipedia article out, and it sounds pretty cool. As for what the guy above (18.104.22.168) said, that the Mongols were so successful because they were barbaric, well, I don't quite buy that completely, although he certainly has a point. Sure, that's one reason, but it doesn't mean that civilized empires can't do the same. Russia wasn't barbaric in the 1500s and 1600s, yet managed to conquer all of Siberia, from the Urals to the Pacific, in 60 years (1580-1640). China, it is true, was known as a nation that thought highly of itself and didn't really care about the rest of the barbaric world (until the barbaric world got more civilized and started trying to take China over). But opinions change over time, and I think that a new emperor or government can change opinions throughout the country. (And besides, xenophobic sentiment was strongest during the Ming and Qing Dynasties, which do not show up in my timeline.) Back in 1860 (and even up to 1900), one could hardly imagine that Japan, a nation that had for so long kept to itself, would be able (or desiring) to take over much of coastal east Asia. Yet in a six-month period (December 1941 - May 1942), the Japanese took over nearly all of Southeast Asia, including Burma, Malaya, Singapore, Indonesia, and the Philippines (and made Thailand an ally). These places would probably have stayed under Japanese control for decades if the West had stayed away after their initial defeats. So yeah, I think that it is possible for civilized nations to expand in a very short period of time (even against other civilized and numerous foes). Marcpasquin, like you say, the original idea of expansion came because the Chinese wanted to finally put an end to the Mongolian menace, and then kept going west because the Silk Road was becoming a very wealthy land. To Louisiannan, thanks for your nice comment, and I'll try to continue with this timeline until, hopefully, it is brought up to the present day. This might take some time, but hang in there! --Riction 08:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- The Chinese civilization is not imperialist in nature. Even today, it holds on to Xinjiang and Tibet because of their strategic importance of bufferzone. China is basically an island, surrounded by the Pacific, the Southeast Asian jungle, the Himalayas, the Taklamakan, the Gobi and [before 1860] the Stanovoy Range. And Chinese see no reason to leave this "island".
- So unless they have a realllly good reason to hold the lands they conquered, they wont because it is too costly. That's why Chinese expeditions were sent in OTL to "pacify" the barbarians and then come home. Logistically, maintaining these campaigns were extremely difficult. Can you imagine the logistics to support civilian populations? Institutionally the Chinese governments would not do it, it would probably look like the American Wild West, which arguably in OTL it was like, at least along the Silk Road.
- Finally, to conquer such massive amounts of land, Chinese would have to incorporate sweeping reforms to their military, barbarian style: in other words, Chinese would have to become Mongolian. The arguments *for* are that Chinese dynasties in the past have adapted barbarian technologies and tactics for practical reasons, and the Tang Dynasty was militaristic and semi-barbarian in terms of policy, but it would require more than just a government or emperor to change ingrained Confucian values that share Chinese civilization! --Sunwukong 18:16, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
The Chinese calender would be more common and widespread then. What are the years in their system? Also, is the word Yodderick Chinese or Japanese for 'New World'?--TEAKAY 13:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- About the Chinese calendar, I had to look that up, myself. It turns out that in China, there was never a single agreed upon year numbering system as in the West with BC/AD. Instead, the calendar would restart with each new emperor, and it was simply called the such-and-such year of such-and-such emperor's rule. This system is still used in Japan, and 2008 is known also as "Heisei 20". A continuous numbering system was rarely used by the Chinese themselves, and was only of interest to Westerners who felt that they needed a continuous system like in the west. In that system, 2008 would be 4705. Partly because it was never used very much, and partly because I'm just too lazy to compute all of the past years, I'm sticking to the Western system.
- As for Yodderick, I came up with that name from the characters 洋大陸 ("Yoh Tai Riku" in Japanese, "Yang Da Lu" in modern Mandarin, and "Iang Dhai Liuk" in Tang Court Chinese, with other variants to be found in other Chinese dialects and presumably other Asian languages). 洋 means "beyond the ocean" or "foreign" (these days, in Japan, at least, it often means "Western (that is, European/American)"), and 大陸 means "continent". I didn't really choose a single one to base "Yodderick" on, although it's most like the Japanese pronunciation, and highly Anglicized. Anyway, thanks for showing interest in my althist! --Riction 02:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Neat.--TEAKAY 11:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
What motivated the Chinese and Japanese to be less malevolent to the aboriginals? Also, did they give the native populations a name or did they just call them natives/native yodderickese (or even foreigners! ;) ). The maps are really good.--TEAKAY 18:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't really gone in depth about the happenings in Yodderick. About the names for the people of the continent, I haven't really thought about it, but I guess that the aboriginals were mostly grouped into Yodderickese ("You (Tai Riku) Jin" in Japanese and "Yang (Da Lu) Ren" in Chinese). I suppose that different sub-groups would be known by some other names. I suppose that the "Sioux" and others would be around in this timeline, but I'm not sure if I'll mention them, and if I do, I'm not sure if I'll change the spelling of their name from the OTL French-like one to a simple "Su" or something that they would probably be known as to the Asians.
- As for the Asians being less malevolent than the Europeans, although the Japanese and Chinese probably weren't quite as malevolent to the aboriginals, they also weren't too kindly. However, in many cases, the conquering of Yodderick was similar to the conquering of areas in the Old World - they subjugated the people but tried to educate them in their culture instead of eradicating them. The fact that the great plague occurred after the discovery of the New World (it's the opposite in OTL) both scared off the intruders a bit, and also gave the aboriginals some breathing room and a chance to grow their numbers between major outbreaks. Still, the population plummetted. In the year 1600 in my world, the Aztecs have been thoroughly defeated by the Chinese (and Chinese immigration to Mexico is high), while the Incas are more of a tribute state and have suffered less (although many Mexicans are indeed suffering less under the Chinese than they did under the sacrifice-loving Aztecs). The Japanese have thoroughly defeated and subjugated the tribes in OTL California and most of the Pacific Northwest. Another reason for less of an impact than the Europeans brought to the New World is the fact that the lack of a zealous drive to convert or kill their way to a monotheistic New World meant that the natives didn't appear as alien and savage to the Asians as to the Europeans in OTL. Finally, it's also true that the East Asians are unable to get far into the interior, and most of the land they've found isn't so suitable for farming - especially rice farming. Conquering from west to east is more difficult, because you immediately hit the Cascade Mountains, Death Valley and the Sonora Desert, the Andes, and the Atacama Desert (the driest place in the world). It's not as easy as starting in the moist and temperate east. However, the Asian colonial powers are finally starting to get there, and things might get messy as some European powers (and maybe even some native peoples) also vie for a piece. Stay tuned. Oh yeah, and thanks for the compliment about my maps! --Riction 15:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Size of page
Should I break up this article into smaller pieces? Please comment if you think so. (My browser has no problems with this length of a page) --Riction
- Personnaly I think you should keep on this page only a summary of the timeline and break the sections into their own pages to help make it easier to read.--Marcpasquin 16:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Try to put everything from your timelines and bunch it all in one article. That way, I don't have to go to different timelines to lookn at stuuf
So...after the Tang's fall, was it the Hongs, Sungs, Fangs or the McSweeneys that took over? Louisiannan 15:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- I can't understand what you're getting at... --Riction 16:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- Read this book. My comment was mostly a joke for those who've read Terry Pratchett. The typical exchange, from the book, goes like this:
- "They're ruled by the Hongs, Sungs, Tangs, Fangs and McSweeneys."http://althistory.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Easternized_World&action=edit§ion=2
Editing Talk:Easternized World (section) - Alternative History
- "Very old and respectable family."
- Anyway. Just a failed attempt at humor. Louisiannan 18:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- isn't that when Rincewind is in the agathean empire ? --Marcpasquin 18:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yup, with Cohen the Barbarian and the Silver Horde. Louisiannan 22:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The contents are together and the words are blurbby.
- Sorry, what do you mean, exactly? --Riction 11:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
How about you could tell that the Chinese invaded all of Russia (except the Kola Peninsula), Byzantine empire, eastern Europe, and the Balkan countries. Also tell they seized half of the Holy Roman empire and took Venice as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 00:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Here's a little riddle. See if you can figure it out. Why would I take advice from someone who just recently removed all content from my page...and then restored it 2 minutes later. Why would I take advice from someone who has repeatedly defaced my timeline while it was clear that I didn't want anyone to make any changes...and then that same person removed my note that said not to make any changes...like that would make some difference. Why would I take advice from someone who writes in barely legible English, as when he uses phrases like "most nicest" instead of just "nicest" or even "most nice" when "updating" my page? Why would I take advice from someone who wants Islam to die out...only to be taken up by a king later on...about as likely as a random president now becoming a Zeus worshipper. Why would I take advice from someone who tries to get fame for his sub-par pages by linking them to mine? Why would I take advice from someone who never signs comments and can't be bothered actually becoming a member, but can easily be found out to be "126.96.36.199", except when he decides to use another computer? Why would I take advice from someone who has an unhealthy obsession either with me or my timeline, or both, and can't get it through his head that "No means no."? In fact, why would I not suggest that that person be banned from this site if he keeps it up? So, do you know the answer? --Riction 14:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Ooh, ooh I know the answer "Because everyone who likes this TL is fed up with the BS of the anonomous users!". That was fun. Anyway, you should probably ask an admin to like lock yor page or something, or just something to be done. Mr.Xeight 23:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- 98 Obviously sociopathic and a serious problem. >:( --TEAKAY 02:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks Mr.Xeight and Teakay. It's really no problem, at least for right now. Every edit that he makes (which might take an hour of his time) can be undone in about 20 seconds. Sooner or later, he'll get bored here and move on. Thanks again. --Riction 23:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Just some rough ideas below that I thought about.
--Battle of Ros Tanura results in great naval losses on both sides as the air forces of each nation inflict a heavy toll on the capital ships of the other power. Srivjayan Navy/Air force come out on top overall as theirs is the superior overall air force. However, Byzantine forces have the advantage on land and quickly overrun the Ras Tanura base and the major oil refineries located there. The surviving Srivjayan navy escapes to Mombasa on the East African coast. The age of air power has arrived.
--Byzantines take Arabian oilfields, helped by Arab revolts against Srivjaya.
--Srivjayan military government in Malaya appeals to China for aid against the Byzantine/Spanish alliance. Seeing Asian hegemony and the great power system being challenged, China responds by sending large numbers of troops to the Caucasus and Romanian borders and warns the Byzantines to cease action.
--Knowing that if Srivjaya is chased out of the region that the Byzantines will turn on them next and emboldened by recent Chinese action, Egypt allies with Srivjaya and enters the war against Byzantines and Spain. It seizes Byzantine Cyrenaica on the east coast of Libya and pushes forces into Byzantine Palestine where the front stabilizes roughly on the Jordan river. Wolof also joins Srivjaya in the war and seizes interior Spanish Saharan Africa, but is repulsed from Spanish Morocco.
--After Chinese support of the Srivjayan military government in Malaya is announced, the Srivjayan Philippines (“Luzon-Manila”) invites in Japanese “protection” to its archipelago. Japanese land, air, and naval forces station themselves there. China warns Japan after its Luzon deployments, it also places the Malayan Peninsula and the Srivjayan military govt there under its protection. In response to these moves, the Srivjayan democratic govt in power in Sumatra and western java orients toward Japan. The Eastern Java/Bali Srivjayan faction stays neutral. --The Byzantines continue their advance into Arabia, China responds by launching an invasion into Caucasia and Byzantine client state Romania which lead to large Greek losses. In response, Spain tears up its pact with China and declares war.
--In Japan, leaders contemplate the chain of events and conclude that if China is allowed to crush the Byzantine/Spanish alliance (which it could easily do) and thereby wins the alliance of the military Srivjayan government (which could then reconquer the rest of independent Srivjaya), that the balance of power would be upset and China would become a hyperpower which no one could challenge. Japan’s leaders negotiate secretly with the Byzantines and Spanish and decide to act.
--Japan launches coordinated surprise aerial assaults from Kyushu and Okinawa on the Chinese navy in port at Pusan, Qingdao, and Shanghai. The main southern naval base at Guangzhou is hit by bombers from the Philippines. Simultaneously, the Chinese Navy based at the Yodderick Canal is hit by a massive Japanese carrier force and destroyed and the Chinese navy based at Seagate Island (Martinique) is hit by land-based air out of Japanese Cuba. The Chinese surface navy has been crippled. A Japanese naval and marine task force invades Taiwan to deny China the use of submarine and air bases there. The offensive is slow-going but eventually succeeds in pushing China off the island. Chinese land forces quickly respond by advancing into the Kamchatska and Chuchki peninsulas from the Japanese. The Japanese for the most part do not resist as these areas are remote, thinly populated and without great value. They do however maintain a fortress at (OTL Petropavlosk) that the Chinese cannot capture due to tenuous supply lines to Kamchatka. Forces in Japanese Alaska monitor any efforts to gain a toehold in Yodderick. In addition, Chinese air forces mass in Korea and a several-month long aerial Battle of Japan results in a stalemate with large losses on both sides, though the Japanese Zero fighter proves to be a superior machine and inflicts proportionately larger losses on the Chinese air force.
--Meixikou is promised Central Yodderick and the Yodderick Canal. In conjunction with Japanese Yodderrick it invades and takes the region. Before surrendering, Chinese forces sabotage the Canal by sinking ships in the Canal and blowing up the locks. The Canal will not be made operational again until after the war. --Potosi and the Andean Chinese region secede from Chinese control now that Chinese naval intervention is no longer a threat. Japanese forces from North Yodderick take care of the small Chinese garrisons there. Subduing the rest of Chinese South Yodderick is a mopping up operation.
--Japanese promise independence to its European possessions in exchange for participating in what is now a Great Powers War. The Netherlands and England step up their mobilization efforts, seeing Japanese promises and Spanish successes as the beginning of a new European era. Ethnic Dutch and English troops from Japanese Yodderick join their compatriots in large numbers in the Lowlands in a campaign to defeat the Holy Roman Empire (a Chinese client state.) France also joins in at this time in what it will later term the European War of Liberation. --The Holy Roman Empire overwhelmed by forces advancing from the Japanese Netherlands, as well as Spanish forces joining with France. Combined European forces drive to the border of Chinese client Poland, which wavers and then goes into revolution, with some Poles hoping to join their european brothers in overthrowing the Chinese yoke. However, Chinese troops quickly occupy the country and establish a defensive line on the Oder River. On the Balkan front, Chinese forces continue to advance and reach the gates of Constantinople. The Byzantines make a fortress of the city and prepare for urban warfare. In the Caucasus, Chinese forces make slower advances, hampered by the difficult terrain there. However, the multiple fronts on which the Byzantines are fighting spreads them thin and allow the Egyptians to break out into Syria, threatening Byzantine Mesopotamia and its occupation force in Arabia.
--In the wake of Egyptian advances into Mesopotamia and Chinese advances into the Caucasus, Persia becomes worried, and in conjunction with promises by the Byzantines for territorial concessions in Mesopotamia after the war, it enters the war and pushes the Egyptians back to Palestine. It also helps bolster the Byzantine defenses in the Caucasus and prepares for a Chinese offensive on its possessions in Central Asia.
--Japan surveys the situation and knows that even with itself, Yodderick, Byzantium, Spain, and Persia engaged in war against China, that its coalition probably cannot withstand the enormous forces of the Chinese dragon once it fully mobilizes. It makes entreaties to the Indian powers, the last major neutral powers, to enter the war on its side. With its close neighbor Persia at war, Delhi sees the danger of a Chinese hyperpower and enters what is termed to be the “Grand Alliance” with all of the other nations fighting China and the military Srivjyan government which are termed the “Bejing-Penang Axis,” or simply, “Axis.” China responds by sending armies to Central Asia, Burma, and the Tibetan border. Soon, Vijayanagar joins Delhi in the Alliance and sends armies northward to stiffen Indian lines. Democratic Srivjaya also formally joins the war effort of the Allies. All of the world is now at war with the exception of neutral Scandinavia.
--China sends huge armies to Europe across the Trans Siberian railroad. The front lines of the combatants range from Poland down to Constantinople in the West, Caucasusia and Central Asia in the Middle East, and Tibet and Bengal in the East.
--Since the destruction of the Chinese surface navy, China has unleashed its large submarine forces against Japanese and democratic Srivjayan surface forces and maritime trade. Convoy systems from Yoderick to the Japanese and Srivjayan archipelagos carrying food, ores, and oil are instituted by the Alliance to deal with the underwater threat. A Japanese naval force seizes Chinese Hawaii to aid in these convoying efforts.
--Seeing its enemies multiply, the Chinese decide to concentrate its forces in a knock out blow against one of its enemies, the Byzantines, whose defeat would split the alliance into two non-contiguous blocs. Constantinople was finally taken by the Chinese after bitter fighting, as was all of Byzantine Europe except for maritime pockets in Dalmatia and Greece. A renewed Chinese offensive in the Caucasus in conjunction with Egyptian and Srivjayan efforts in Palestine also succeeds in breaking through Greek lines. Byzantine forces reorganize into Eastern Anatolia. Indian reinforcements rush in through Persia and Arabian ports to contain advances into Mesopotamia and Arabia. They manage to hold off Chinese and Egyptian forces just north and west of Baghdad. Combined Vijayanagar and democratic Srivjayan naval and marine forces invade Srivjayan Somalia and Eritrea and take those areas to control the approaches to the Red Sea.
--To take pressure off the Middle Eastern front, European and Yodderick forces attack China in Central Europe but make few gains.
--A two-pronged amphibious invasion is aimed at the Sinai peninsula by Vijayanagar and Democratic Srivjayan forces based out of the Red Sea and Spanish/Yodderick-Japanese forces coming from the Mediterranean. The invasion manages to cut off the main Egyptian armies in Mesopotamia and leaves the Egyptian heartland vulnerable. Egypt sues for peace as Alliance reinforcements pour in and march on Alexandria and Cairo. Wolof also sues for peace at that point before Alliance forces in Africa are turned against it. Most Srivjayan forces based in Africa also pledge allegiance to the democratic Srivjayan regime at this point. China, its client states, and the military regime of Srivjaya in Malaya are the only remaining members of the Axis, though they are still a potent force capable of winning the war.
--Indian/Persian counterattacks force the Chinese back into the reaches of the Caucasus. Indian attacks into Burma are less successful given the difficult terrain there.
--China launches a blitzkrieg attack against Persian and Indian forces in Central Asia and pushes them out of Afghanistan and the central asian “stans” that form eastern Persia. However, the attack grinds down to a halt on the borders of Pakistan and Persia proper.
--China begins rocket attacks on Japan using launchers in Korea. It also launches rockets to a smaller extent against northern Indian cities.
--Spanish bombers destroy Warsaw with a nuke. A Russian rebellion ensues in fear that they will be the next target of nuclear attack. Many Russian units employed in Chinese service on this front mutiny or disband. The Allies manage to break Axis lines in Poland and pushes on into Chinese-held Russia. China is forced back to Smolensk before the European offensive stops in order for logistics to catch up with the pace of the advance. In the south, China withdraws from the Balkans to the Romanian border in order to ensure its troops are not cut off following the general European advance. Spain then threatens further nuclear attacks on the Chinese mainland using the bases of its allies in Asia. China threatens it will respond with mass chemical and biological warfare against the Allies. China believes that its powerful air force and air defenses will provide sufficient protection against such attacks and it is working on its own nuclear weapons that it hopes to have ready within the year.
--Spain secretly transfers its three remaining nuclear weapons to Asia. Japan readies an air offensive against China. --Massive bomber streams launch from Japan toward Beijing. The Chinese believe this is the nuclear attack they’ve been waiting for and scramble their fighter forces to shoot down the bombers. Hundreds of Japanese and Chinese planes go down in flames but this is merely a feint to lure Chinese airpower to the capital and northern seaboard. After a week of such attacks that has focused Chinese attention to the northeast, a huge Indian air assault overflies Burma and punches through the southwestern air defenses of China. Chonquing is made a nuclear fireball.
--Following the nuclear attack on Chongqing, the Alliance threatens any Axis satellite with the same destruction if they continue to materially assist China. In the face of such threats, the Srivjayan military government in Penang enters into surrender negotiations with the alliance. Powerful Japanese and democratic Srivjayan forces land in Malaya near the Kra peninsula to defend Malaya against any Chinese offensive. Soon Luzon and the East Java faction join with newly freed Malaya and the Srivjayan democratic regime to announce the reunification of Srivjaya. Other Chinese satellites in Southeast Asia, Korea, and Russia are under the direct occupation of Chinese military forces and are unable to tender their surrenders.
--China retaliates for the nuking of Chongquing with bombing and rocket attacks on Japan using chemical weapons and anthrax. However, the Japanese have well prepared civil defenses and suffer only light casualties.
--The Chinese civilian populace is terrified following the attack on Chongquing, and some Chinese generals begin talking about a coup and armistice.
--The two remaining Spanish nukes are loaded aboard bombers in Taiwan and Okinawa with Shanghai and Fuzhou targeted. The attack on Shanghai is thwarted when the heavy fighter defenses around that city down the bomber with the nuke. However, the attack on Fuzhou is successful and a second Chinese city goes up in nuclear flame.
--The Alliance threatens further nuclear attacks even though it is temporarily out of nukes.
--After popular uprisings begin around China, a group of generals rises up and overthrows the Chinese government. China sues for peace and agrees to withdraw from all areas other than China proper and Siberia. Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, Korea, and Chinese Yodderick win independence.
--Following through on its promises, Japan sets its European possessions free as does Srivjaya with its colonial possessions. Self-determination wins the day throughout the world.
--A global diplomatic body, the United Nations, is established in Naikou (OTL New York City) to pursue peaceful cooperation among all of the nations of the world.
- Great Time Line, Riction. I saw the above "paragraph" and broke it up into bits (a formatting problem) to be easier for me to read. Having read it, I "fixed" it for the rest of those who might be following this time line. --SouthWriter 16:30, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for not getting back sooner! I appreciate all the thought you put into that! I'll try to follow this page, but you can write on my main talk page if you want me to notice something that you've written. You really wrote a lot! I already started going in another direction with my timeline, but yours shouldn't be lost. If you want to make an alternate history stemming from my alternate history, then I will put a link to your page on my page. You can continue it your way, and we can end up with branching endings to the stories. How does that sound? Anway, thanks again! --Riction 13:01, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
I read the Timeline, and I was wondering whether Meixikou would become like OTL United States as it is the first colony to gain independance? Anyway just an idea. DarthEinstein 15:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Kinda odd how the Srivijayans are all over America, but they don't discover nearby Australia earlier..
The fine art of Undo
There is this rather effective marital art known as undo! :-)
The most recent vandalism should not have been dealt with by adding lines to the page, but rather by simply applying "undo." This anonymous bozo needs to read the rules! Anyway, your hard work is not unappreciated. Ask Mitro if he can block certain editors from such ridiculous assaults. SouthWriter 20:13, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
Interesting but unlikely
Though you alternate history is interesting it is very unlikely for the following reasons:
1) The Tang dynasty has no reason to conquer Mongol, Jurchens, or Siberian land because it would be of no value to them. The people living were nomads who main possessions were their animals and yurts, the land was impossible to farm, and their was nothing of value that could be captured. If the Tang tried to conquer this area the nomads would just pack up everything they owned and move west.
I suspect you had this invasion so that China would not be split into the Jin and Song dynasties, then get conquered by the Mongols.
2) If the Tang dynasty was going to invade anywhere it would be South East Asia, which is historically where China invaded (especially Vietnam). The reason was that these areas were richer and the people weren't nomads so they couldn't just leave.
3) Given that the wealth generated by the Indian Ocean trade was vast why don't China and Srivijaya try to control it by conquering south East Asia, India, or Ethiopia.
4) The silk road was always under Chinese control as they were the only nation that produced silk. What about the Spice routes?
5) The Kipchak were nomads like the Mongols. They wouldn't stop being nomads because the Chinese conquered them and if the Chinese Empire collapsed they would return to being nomads.
6) The Byzantine Empire in 1200 is too large. By this time they'd lost much of Asia Minor to the Turks and some of the Balkans to the Bulgarians and Serbs. The Byzantine Empire would have been in no position to invade Arabia and there would be no reason for Western Europe to help.
7) Why would Srivijaya want to trade with Europe rather than Ethiopia, India, South East Asia, or China? What is Europe producing that is so valuable that Srivijaya is willing to travel around Africa to get? Also where did Srivijaya get the technology to build ships that can sail around Africa?
8) Why is Japan trying to trade with Europe rather than Srivijaya, India, South East Asia, or China? What is Europe producing that the Japanese want to buy? Also where did Japan get the technology to build ships that can cross the Pacific?
9) Europeans colonised the Americas because they had gold (South America) and it was possible to grow large fields of tobacco, sugar, and coffee. What benefits are the Japanese getting from the East Coast of America and Canada?
10) Why would Hǔ Chóngshēng create the Chinese National Council when the Chinese believed that the Emperor ruled all under the heavens (the whole world) and was required to help mediate between heaven and earth?
11) Why is France so many countries?
12) Why are the Strait of Gibraltar so valuable when you could sail past them and reach most countries?
13) Why would the eastern countries colonise Europe? What does Europe have that they want?
14) Your Meixikou revolt doesn't seem realistic as China could have sent a massive army to crush them, just like the Europeans did if a colony rebelled.
I would also recommend you mention the Battle of Talas in 751 CE between the Tang Dynasty and the Abbasid Caliphate.
It is true that this timeline would probably never have happened under any circumstance, but we do have timelines even more impossible and far-fetched than this one, such as: 'The Magnificent Nathanian Empire: The Birth of a Monster'. --Emperor of Trebizond 17:02, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Don't let this this anonymous contributer intimidate you, Emperor (or can I call you Treb?), he has a host of stereotypes controlling his biases. There are many reasons why this may not have happened, and one event in ancient history usually does not change the whole course of history. History happened the way it did based on a plethora of factors. In alternate history, we can only deal with some of those factors in building a fictional alternative. You have done an excellent job.
- Here are some answers I came up with on the spur of the moment to this litany of objections.
- 1. The "nomads." If Tang wanted to extend his empire, then he might decide that the "path of least resistance" was the better direction to go. If the nomads ran away, then all that land would be his - for his own flocks if nothing else.
2. Souteast Asia. For the same reason, as stated in #1, why fight and conquer as resistant people. It would be more profitable to trade with them - silk for spices, and all that. And the "silk road" was only called that because that was the road to and from the place where the silk came from. That certainly was not the only product Marco Polo and others carried on it.
3. Technology. Anon seems to think that the Chinese were backward when compared to Eupore. This shows a poor understanding of ancient Chinese history. Certainly they had boats capable of making long journeys. The journeys to the Americas would most likely have been first via island hopping around by Alaska. After a while, just like with the Europeans, they would develop bigger and stronger ships more suitable to long journeys. As the saying goes, "necessity is the mother of invention."
4. Trade. Japan is obviously at odds with China from far back in their common history. Therefore, to be a friend of China is to be an enemy of Japan. This would lead to the Japanese seeking other sources for resources - including Europe. Japan, though, might be more likely to be more competitve in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic due to distances.
5. Chinese National Council. Hu would probably have the same problem as Moses did, on a much larger scale. He was overwhelmed by all the little things. The same solution holds -- delegation of authority.
6. Colonization of Europe. If the Eastern powers can beat the Europeans to the age of exploration by just a generation or two, they have a good chance to get a foothold there due to their experience in seafaring vehicles by that time. What does Europe have? Well they built western civilization over period of two millennia without going east of what we now call Pakistan. They have technology, farmland, and people. All things that wars have been fought over for ages.
7. Rebellion. Meixikou would succeed in rebellion because of the vast distance from the "motherland." Besides, by that time the Chinese empire was stretched around the world. They succeeded in OTL, as did the USA against Britain. Colonies aren't always "worth the trouble."
Have a great day. SouthWriter 20:22, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Excellent and most observant points you have noted, SouthWriter. This is proving to be an interesting timeline in many ways; I'll continue to keep up with its updates.--Emperor of Trebizond 20:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Future of the story
The latest map for the story shows japan in control of north america and china controlling most of eurasia, this is just a suggestion if you like the idea. Maybe at some point in the future japanese controlled north america and the chinese east would become entangled in a cold war similar to our own(or quite different), two opposing cultures with some things in common yet differences that are exemplified by the tension between the two. Just a thought :)
I have a few questions for this timeline that may be important:
- Does Marco Polo visit China in this timeline?
- How does the Chinese conquest of the Middle East affect the Christians there and the Europeans?
- Why didn't China conquer Russia and other parts of the European Mongol Empire portion just like the OTL Mongol Empire?
- Could China face potential threats from the Turks in the west?
- What about the Asian countries to the south? Do they feel threatened by China?
- How did TIbet and those other states became tributary states?
Thank you and have fun!
RandomWriterGuy 22:00, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
LOL, it's probably too late to answer these questions, and those on Riction's intent can only be guessed at, but I'll do so nevertheless.
- China was very unstable during the period he went to China in OTL, so I find it doubtful that Marco Polo would have gone there. Especially due to the collapse of the Silk Road when Kipchak and Arabia broke away
- The Chinese conquest of the Middle-East helped Christians, as they, used to being the minority, did not resist as much as the Muslims, and thus were not persecuted against as badly. Furthermore, when China left the resulting power vaccuum there helped Christian and European Bytzantia take control of that area.
- In the Zheng Empire-They would have been overstretched, plus they only really attacked when provoked (the Mongolic peoples raided them, the Muslims attacked them, that's why they were conquered)
- I have plans for the Turks, but suffice to say, they are still present in China.
- The Asian nations in the south have often been tributary states to China. They have sort of been left behind as China to the north and Sri Vijaya to the south have risen, but they still get massive benefits from being so close to superpowers. Sort of like the Scandanavian nations or Switzerland in real life, part of Europe but not great imperializers.
- China told them they had to pay them or they would be conquered.
I am developing a timeline that results in large china and I was wondering, why you don't have expansion south? Is it the terrain? A conscious decision? Or was trbute states just more profitable? - Willbell123 20:11, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
Your questions are not going to be answered, as Riction has been gone for a while. LurkerLordB 20:24, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
My attempt to contact Riction for him to return to this wiki sadly has failed, for it appears that Riction has departed this wiki, never to return. Therefore, as a week has gone by with no response from the creator of this timeline in regards to whether he was going to continue it or let it be adopted by me, I now am following the next step in the adoption procedure, and am declaring my intention to adopt this timeline due to its creator's absence. If no one objects over the next three days, I am taking over this timeline (unless Riction returns, then I'll give it back to him) LurkerLordB 17:45, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- I do not have any objections per se, but this is a featured timeline after all, so it should be respected. As long as you respect QSS and QAA I have no problem with you adopting this timeline. Mitro 18:08, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- From what I understand, QSS and QAA mean basically not to change what is already written, only add more? Because that is what I was planning on doing. LurkerLordB 18:50, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Then I have no problem with you. Mitro 18:59, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- As three days have passed, and no objections have been given, due to the adoption policy of this wiki, I adopt this timeline until Riction returns (if ever) LurkerLordB 03:43, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
- I love it when people actually follow the guidelines I draft, it makes things easier for everyone involved. Thanks Lurker for being an intelligent and mature adult. I look forward to reading your contributions. Mitro 14:49, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you! LurkerLordB 15:24, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Future Plans and Help
Do you have any future plans for this TL Lurker? And can I help? RandomWriterGuy 23:00, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
I have a few future plans, once I complete a basic timeline for 1901-2012 and add a few pages and whatnot, I will open this up to let other people fill in the gaps. Any ideas you have can be posted here or on the related blog and they will be considered and possibly implemented. :) LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:28, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe you should add a map of the present day, since the nations decolonized and the whole world looks different. 03:36, August 2, 2012 (UTC)188.8.131.52
I must say this is a facinating timeline, but it is also pretty overkill since China was never really that expansionist in nature. Even if they did expand territory, it would only reach as far as the western tip of Central Asia (particularily around the Caspian region). As a result similar Sino-Islamic tensions will occur as that what was already stated in the timeline, but instead of being angry over being conquered by China, the Arabs will be threatened over land they deemed rightfuly their sphere of influence being claimed by the Chinese.
In addition, I think it's more likely that they will form alliances with numerous Middle-eastern territories such as Byzantium in order to help them retake land that was seized by the Arabs. After sharing a victory with places like Perisa and Byzantium, China will turn the two into protectorates rather than outright conquering them.
As for the Japanese, I don't think their conquest of our timeline's Canada and The United States, would be that easy. It's more than likely that they'll fight against both the British and French over time and gradually consume virtually the entire continent. In addition, The Japanese were not at all friendly towards their own indigenous Ainu people, so what makes you think they'd be any nicer to the Native Americans? If they were to conquer anywhere in Europe, I don't think they'd do England, but maybe they'd seize Ireland instead of Cromwell.
Do any of you mind if I perform some adjustments of my own, now that the author has left?
Not only has the caretaker/author of the timeline not left, but you most definitely cannot do anything to it.
A fair part of what you posted isn't accurate, either, quite frankly.
Massive Changes to My Sections?
Now that I've returned, I've decided to focus most of my AH energies on improving this timeline. I am considering doing some significant changes to the ~150 years before the present day which I originally added. These would be fairly significant changes:
- Earlier Chinese decolonization of South America. I missed Riction's original mention of China giving several South American colonies independence in return for help in the war, so I made some cheap excuse of the Chinese giving them a little more autonomy and managing to hold on for another couple decades. I'm considering the below options:
- China does what they promise, and lets South America go.
- China breaks its promise, a decade of war in South America dragging a war-weary China to a breaking point, China is forced to relinquish its colonies then.
- Different Chinese loss of Eurasian territory. Currently, I don't really like their borders. Ukraine probably shouldn't exist, especially not in its current form.
- More "Balkanization". Probably in Africa.
- Making some nicer borders.
- Better religious explanation for Northern Europe than just a Random-ism