Talk:From Sea to Shining Sea

To make this more understandable, keep this section shorter and emphasize on the differences in the United States.

Stepintime (talk) 00:11, September 4, 2017 (UTC)

As the original creator has stated that he is abandoning the timeline I am assuming role as a caretaker. However this primarily to clean up the project and add relevant visual aids/media to enhance the experience. I may add content where there are gaps.

Other users are welcome to participate and contribute as always.

Stepintime (talk) 19:06, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

Panama Canal and the Philippines

To add thrill. Panama Canal Zone a) annexed by Colombia, b) occupied by UK or a c) sort of international mandate of the League of Nations. Or all three options!!!
I see the Philippines more in the hands of a local nationalist government more in line of Manuel L. Quezon than communists or similar parties. Philippines would also fell within the economical and political sphere of influence of Imperial Japan. --JorgeGG (talk) 17:56, April 6, 2018 (UTC)

I am starting to wonder why the Philippines would not be taken by Japan outright as this seems to be the perfect moment, (perhaps Japanese politicians choose not to).

And Hawaii Hawaii needs more insight While I imagine the Hawaiians take advantage of the revolution I don't know if it would have leftist outcomes. There is, however, the historical experience of the Hawaiian Communist Party in the 50s which enjoyed victories due to support from native people.

But at the time Japanese made over 43% of the territory's population, though certainly not all supportive of their homeland entirely why wouldn't the Japanese Empire also come to the area?

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My Take
Hawaii: Independent from US in order to safeguard plantation interests and commerce. Fall within the commercial and political sphere UK and/or Japan. Annexed by the later by means of an incident as in China in order to safeguard the Hawaiian people from communist agitation.? I certainly see the local Communist Party involved with forming labor unions and organizing labour strikes and the general strikes that could lead to a revolution.
Alaska: A long war with Canada for its control. Not a state but a territory under direct rule (too few people and infighting to have a local revolutionary government) Perhaps with a little help from Russia but with some compensation. Nothing comes free.
Panama Canal A) annexed by Colombia, B) occupied by UK or C) a sort of international mandate of the League of Nations or some combination of the three.
Philippines. Becomes independent with the generous help of Imperial Japan under the slogan of Asian for Asians. Not annexed but under some form of indirect rule. Or just annexed.
Mexico. Establishes working relations with the revolutionary America and help with weapons and military skirmishes north of Rio Grande or a major offensive in Texas and help to California. Later when things are settled it would establish some sort of Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between both states. Perhaps more open migration to border states and a more bilingual revolutionary America.
Canada. Becomes a refuge for fleeing Americans and as a long Red Scare period (like in the USA in the 1950s) that disestablishes Canadian labor movement and left parties. There is a long and protracted war over Alaska as Canada seeks to secure lands north of British Columbia with UK help.
Cuba. Starts an earlier coup or rebellion against Machado establishing a more reformist and left winging movement. Although the american revolution could give air for Machado to maneuver into a more authoritarian regime.
US states I don't see the 48 states surviving in their present shape. For instance I vision independent the communes of Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and others. Also some states are divided or merged according to the revolutionary fighting or other causes (economic, cultural, social, etc). For example the Appalachian united in single unit or Texas split to deter reactionaries from having a common front, etc, Or for example Indian territories with degrees of self rule and ownership of their natural resources or due to Black liberation and civil right movements autonomous republics or regions established in the deep south. --JorgeGG (talk) 13:30, April 10, 2018 (UTC)

While I don't want to get ahead of ourselves the changes you describe will result in a completely different global situation by the 1940s. Though a global war will still occur due to mounting economic tensions around the globe and the shock America's revolution has on the economy the war may be entirely different. We cannot be sure that the infamous German Reich will arise in the shape we know in our real world. Certainly alliances will be different. I imagine the western powers being threatened by the 'continents of Russia and America' will band together to protect their global empires.

As the OTL United States had war-plans prepared against Great Britain as late as 1936 a revolutionary socialistic America will be positioned to disregard the British Empire which just by its image will go against the principals the new America stands for. The question would be is whether the revolutionary leaders would plunge the country into another war after the civil war. The overall theme of timeline believes that America due to the ideology of the revolutionaries will risk fighting a new overseas war. There is likely to be major dissent against the war unless somehow the Socialist America is physically provoked.

Perhaps we will see Great Britain/France/Germany on the same side confronting Russia and the United States together.

Do not misunderstand me I am not writing about this hypothetical war because of I find it interesting, I absolutely find it horrible I would rather write about the domestic development of the U.S but realistically there will be a war in this climate. Perhaps a war that the U.S could avoid but will certainly not in this time.

In regards to your points Alaska Yes, this will be a territory for sure. I think the people residing there would had possibly resented the instruction to their lives the revolution would had represented. The relatively large Alaskan Native population I think would have tried to avoid the confrontation between White Americans but would had ultimately been dragged into the fight.

Hawaii Japan securing influence in Hawaii and the empowerment of the large Japanese Hawaiian population will be interesting, how will the Polynesians react? And the Americans living in the islands?

While White Americans will deeply resent the Japanese for coming to what they see as 'their lands' I can see others working with the Japanese to hold down Communist influence. Japanese and members of the American refugee committee (lets call them the Blue Expats or Blue Riders for now) may develop a friendship with each other.

In regards to earlier point about future war this is a chief point in the conflict to come. Socialist America will likely target Hawaii to free the islands from 'imperialism' for sure. But the Japanese will have a unique edge not seen in most timelines, being in a much better political and economic position potentially in regards to an America recovering from war. However the status of China as a modern power has the ability to change many factors but will need to be discussed in its own right later.

Panama Canal Yes international mandate that is in reality backed by the British would make sense here.

Philippines Along these lines the Philippines will become a client state, potentially with former western elements in the country being scapegoated with the support of raising support for the new regime by Tagalog and Visayan speakers. Depending on the course of events the Philippines could be a supportive ally for Japan similar to the historical Thailand or face annexation by frustrated Japanese generals as you mentioned. Lets think about a client state for now.

Mexico The extent of America's and Mexico friendship as two independent new world powers will be a dominating theme in the history of modern America. America will surely being the father figure in this relationship but I can see both countries genuinely good relations with each other.

Canada May be a target for future American expansion or a coup d'etat to secure North America from the British Empire. I do agree, though, that as long at is independent it will become a safe place for those who disagree with the American Leftists. Canada may preserve of what we come to think of as the 'Old America.'

Cuba I am not as familiar with Cuba in this period but unrest in America will give any U.S supported dictators left or right more room to govern by their own whim.

US States This is one of the most critical questions of the timeline. Though I can see how your proposal makes sense I don't think this revolution will be a cookie cutter from the historical experience of the Soviet Union. I think some of the the revolutionaries would attempt to preserve the core of the American nationality while making it more egalitarian. However I could see Sarah Leslie pushing forward sweeping changes even against the counsel of many of her own loyalists. I like your point on African Americans. However, I will ask, do you think a Socialist American would want to make minorities separate or attempt to 'Americanize' them by giving them legal equality but also putting mainstream values of European Americans upon them?

We should discuss this subject more, thanks for bringing it up.

Overall your takes are pretty sound and start the conversation for building this world.

Quebec citizens however may see an opportunity to overthrow their English Canadian governors.

Let's continue forward!

I also enjoyed reading your sandbox on the party.

Possible Global War possibly

One could wonder that if many of the nations of Eurasia has a mutual fear of the United States in this timeline if that would bind together, to shield themselves from the New World Influence. Perhaps there may not be second great war.

But there likely will be a new war in Eurasia due to basic military/industrial tensions that would still exist.

This war however will not be like OTL as the severe change of power balance causes realignment throughout the world

I imagine the alignment of warring nations to go something like this:

Continental Powers

Socialist American Republics, Mexico, Ethiopia, Russia (possibly China, Iran and Ireland and a revolting Quebec)

Maritime Powers

Great Britain and all of the Commonwealth (except Ireland or revolting non English colonies), Germany, Italy,  Netherlands, Poland, Japan (and its sphere) (possibly France and Thailand)

Non Aligned

Sweden? Switzerland? France? Thailand? Indian Independence Movement,

The allegiance or neutrality of China is one of the greatest factors here. As China and Japan are in different places in this time Japan will not invade China the same way if Japan is even the aggressor. While the history of China and Japan I think would drive them apart diplomatically this is no guarantee of direct war. I also think that the rulers of China will be less inclined to take aggressive actions, if they do however the main theaters of war will be on China's Coast, Korea, Manchuria and possibly Indochina. I am not sure if Russia and China could see themselves on the same side here. Perhaps a mutual distaste of the maritime colonial empires might create an agreement.

Japan in the meantime could be very isolated with three hostile powers potentially attacking at once. This may cause Japan to attack preemptively as in our timeline. However as Japan maintains its traditional island alliance with Great Britain the circumstances are different. Japan in this timeline would receive their raw materials from Australia. In the case of war Britain's navy will at protect supply lines at first.

Hypothetically depending on the politics of such a War, America could be on the losing side if the public does not support the war. Given that the Japanese did intervene in Hawaii (and perhaps even on the mainland during the Civil War) though Americans may still be inclined for war. Even if that means crossing the Pacific to punish Japan. If America and Russia fight together (with China eventually joining their side) they will win in the long term due to industrial capacity. Both will suffer heavy casualties.

Just a rough idea.

Some comments:

1. Mutual fear of America by the World Powers in Europe and Asia, certainly. Leaving America to take over the rest of the Western Hemisphere a de facto appeasement to keep them happy? Although I think this would give an advantage to America that would play against the rest of the World and Canada. Some form of contention like a war, doubtful by the distances and logistics and they could lose Canada and the Caribbean in the process. An informal status quo (we don't touch nor spread revolution to Canada/Quebec nor anywhere else if you leave us alone), a more possible outcome.
2. Liberation of Hawaii and the Philippines from Japanese Imperialism? Maybe but that would be pushing things to much for the American public unless there is an open aggression or threat from Japan. America would need an alliance of convenience with Russia or the United Kingdom (and maybe France or Dutch).
3. As you say a war in Eurasia is highly possible but I see it more as a contention or preventive war (as was the case of the XIX century) between Fascism - due to the triumph of left-wing states with a revolutionary agenda, a reaction as Fascism would arise- and Russia. Not sure if America would give a hand. Though, if ii did it could help to remove isolation and establish trade and diplomatic ties.
4. Perhaps some expansionist nationalism like the Polish or the ones of the Balkans triggers military actions of the main European powers,
5. or proxy wars in colonial possessions for example Africa, Central Asia, Southeast Asia or the Pacific,
6. I don't know how confident and powerful would Japanese Imperialism would be to engage in military actions against Europeans: French (Indochina), UK (Malaysia, Singapore and Pacific Islands), Netherlands (Indonesia) or Russian Far East? or just take on China like OTL? As you say they would have to calculate the possibilities of isolation in case of war. Although as you point out a Japanese-British alliance would give breathing space to Japan.

--JorgeGG (talk) 20:13, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

Military actions during the Revolution

I think the Revolution, and America being a big country, would have several military scenarios.
A) war fronts (as in the Spanish Civil War or trenches of the Western Front).
C) widespread violence and guerrilla warfare - like in the South between black and poor white farmers against land owners, governing cliques, national guard and non-revolutionaries southerners
D) help from foreign power - Mexico sending troops to Texas, Arizona and New Mexico to help the revolution
E) relatively peaceful take over by the revolutionaries like in the states bordering Canada were farmers and militia place a Red Flag on top of the town hall or public square and proclaim their allegiance and their backing in manpower, supplies and weapons to the Revolution after driving out local police and national guard. Accompanied by the burning of courthouses, public records offices and land registries to destroy land foreclosures and mortgage debts and auctions,
F) mid level fighting around major urban or industrial centers.
- Other ideas?? --JorgeGG (talk) 19:06, April 20, 2018 (UTC) EoGuy99 (talk) 21:12, April 20, 2018 (UTC)

A  Yes will occur in the urban areas and the north.

C This will have a long lasting legacy, and will cause trobules and effects until the 21st century.

D Many forgein powers will intervene, but the Mexician involvment will have play a great role in tilting the balance, however there will be anxiety over the possiblity of Mexican retaking the Southwestern states

E In other words Mid-West will be peaceful, however perhaps in the Great Plains Southward scorhed earth polilcy will occur on the Great Plains.

F Industrial Centers, I think will be center of fighting Stepintime (talk) 00:18, April 21, 2018 (UTC)

Obsolete pages

I know it's a bold move but I have marked three pages - Second American Revolution, July Revolution and November Revolution - as obsolete. The reasons are that the present Second American Civil War is being actively been writing collaboratively and in my opinion as a much better development of events, and also narrates the aftermath of the revolution. The three marked pages are redundant or contradictory to events and plausibility and follow too closely or parallels the chronology of the 1917 Russian Revolution (OTL - February and October Revolutions of 1917, dual power, etc,) and do not take in account the characteristics and landscape of the America of the 1930s.--JorgeGG (talk) 14:53, April 25, 2018 (UTC

This certainly makes sense --Stepintime (talk) 20:06, May 10, 2018 (UTC)

Japan and Korea

I am somewhat confused with Japan and Korea in this timeline WW2?, Why not one Korea? If China reforms itself (as the entry of the country states) it would clash with Japan over Taiwan and Korea. Does the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) still happen? How does Imperial Japan relate to the rest of Asia considering it also gained Philippines and HAwaii from America? --JorgeGG (talk) 20:03, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

Events in Asia

Guessing there is still a Second Sino-Japanese War the following might happen:

1. Japan invades China but as in OTL it leads to a long exhausting campaign for Japan. Civil disruption, riots (.. fill in here your favorite social crisis...) leads to a revolutionary uprising in Japan. A socialist regime is installed in Japan. Possibly in the same range of years as in OTL 1937-1945.
2. China liberates Korea and Taiwan. The latter made a province of China.
3. An national war of liberation in Philippines wears down Japan that take promptly gives it independence but subject to the Japanese sphere of influence. (plausible?)
4. Micronesia is keep by Japan due to China unable muster a naval power projection in the Pacific.
5. Japanese influence over the Kingdom (or Republic) of Hawaii.
6. A cordon sanitaire against Japan lead by China is installed (the so called Bamboo Curtain).

Regard, JorgeGG (talk) 19:50, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

Not sure,while I could see the Bamboo curtain coming up regardless I am not sure if there will be war. If Japan is friends with the western powers and China is more advanced would it risk an offensive war on China (or will the war will be reversed) Remember, being that the original POD is from 1895 (and the Qing Emperors are still figure heads China is somewhat of a different place by 1930. Stepintime (talk) 23:23, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

Stepintime (talk) 23:23, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

And Canada?

And Canada? We must not forget the sleeping giant up north. LOL :) --JorgeGG (talk) 20:21, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for being absent, Canada will be the base of future British-American Socialist tension, remembering that the historical United States actually had invasion plans of their own until the 1930s with a more hostile regime I could see a Cold-War esque situation here.

One immediate concern is the 'blue expats' or blue wave, will be focused on the Canadian border for sure.

-Stepintime

Sarah Leslie, the People's President (1936-1953)

(Note:I added this as a work in progress - Feel free to fill in the details --JorgeGG (talk) 13:28, April 27, 2018 (UTC))

Now in its own page Sarah Leslie --JorgeGG (talk) 01:50, July 23, 2019 (UTC)

Proposal on improving President 's list of Socialist America

Here is a proposal for the presidential list, with some data that gives more information (with portraits) and filing gaps. What is missing is party affiliation after 1993. Still missing a good pic for Sarah Leslie, Added an image for the People's President, Saran Leslie . --JorgeGG (talk) 03:11, July 29, 2019 (UTC)

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President of the United Socialist Republics of America
Name	Portrait	Term	Party	Notes
Sarah Leslie		1936-1953	American Workers Party (AWP)	Provisional President 1936-1937, elected in 1937 and reelected in 1941, 1945 and 1949. Better known as the People's President.
Larry Smith		1953-1961	AWP	Reelected in 1957.
Alexander Roberts		1961-1967	AWP	Reelected in 1965. Died in office.
Emmanuel Winters		1967-1971	AWP
Maria Colombo		1971-1979	AWP	Reelected in 1975.
Anna Nikolaev		1979-1981	AWP	Died in air crash.
Michael González		1981-1985	AWP
Samuel Allen		1985-1993	AWP, since 1991 member of the People's Democratic Socialist Party (PDSP)	Reelected in 1989.
Thomas Kim		1993-1995		Resigned.
Melanie Chambers		1995-1999
William Douglass		1999-2003
Emily Thatcher		2003-2011		Reelected in 2007.
Mark Adams		2011-2015
Janet Kim		2015 to date