Talk: South West Africa (1983: Doomsday)

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Another idea.

People here seem to think that refugee convoys and such are unrealistic because no one has the means to fund or organize them. I say, why do they need to be funded or organized? There will always be people who will try to make a buck off the backs of the unfortunate, why would this be any different. Ship captains spread rumors of a haven for German people in the former German Southwest Africa, and charge outlandish prices in goods and such for passage to this paradise. Wizard's first rule: People are stupid, given proper motivation almost everyone will believe almost anything. With the revelation of a German haven, people will give up all their earthly belongings for passage to this utopia, only to be dropped off in Walvis Bay or Swakopmund. Over the years these places swell with german population but are generally homeless and penniless. With no coast guard or whatnot to stop them, this could lead to tens of thousands of unfortunate refugees. Eventualy the rich in Windhoek would take advantage of this influx of people from a highly industrialized and high tech nation and begin recruiting skilled workers for little pay or simply for room and board, leading to an industrial boom in the country, but with many jobs going to whites it could lead to racial tensions. The large homeless refugee population would be prime candidates for military recruitment in order to protect the white elite. Eventually fighting breaks out and the nation is split into Herero controlled north, Nama controlled south, and German Southwest Africa in the middle.

I don't mean to make the herore or Namaqua seem little but they won't have the ability to establish a state in place of what is already in place. For example Afrikaans is the dominant first language in the 'Namaqualand', and economy wise Afrikaans speakers make up a massive proportion of the economy there. I can imagine a Ovambo state in the far north, where little infrastructure is. Especially with the influx of European immigrants adding to the already large white minority. I also doubt that Afrikaners just 'let' the Germans establish a state where Afrikaners make up 60% of the whites, and the Germans only 32% (Info from Wikipedia). Bezuidenhout 11:40, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find any info for the 80s but in the 70s the whites were the majority population in Windhoek, a third of them being german. Windhoek is about 2/3rds the total population of the area designated as German SW Africa in the map I put up. So if say 100,000 germans come to the country over 10-15 years, that would slowly push Germans into either the 2nd largest ethnic group, or the largest in the area.Oerwinde 21:43, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

I love it.

Yankovic270 15:17, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Changes

If you haven't noticed, I've made some drastic changes in hopes that I can get the article graduated. While I am not the care-taker for the Union of South Africa, I do take care of 3 out of 4 of its articles at the moment and would like to bring these nations up to par with the other nations out there. If anyone has ideas, please, do not notify me, make the changes yourself, as I am fine with anything other than the original idea of "Entire German city evacuates to South African-controlled Namibia." Arstarpool 02:28, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

You might want to check out Walvis Bay. I intend to do more work on that article soon, so we could do some collaborating on the "Namibia" region of this timeline. - Mister Sheen 14:18, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

That article kind of screws me over, since Walvis Bay was the capital (albeit renamed and rebuilt) for my article. A solution, and the only solution I could make is that it would be a union between Langstand and Walvis Bay. This one did come first, as for the brief time that it was canon it did include Swakopmund and Walvis Bay, but I can't force you to do anything just because this one was canon first. Arstarpool 14:48, June 11, 2010 (UTC

To be honest, I read through all of the Namibia-related articles (including this one) before I even started Walvis Bay; and I asked one the main 1983: Doomsday talk page about making a Walvis Bay article. I was told that this article had been removed from canon, so I could disregard it when making Walvis Bay. So you can't really claim the rights to the Walvis Bay-area, just because it was a part of GSWA before you regenerated it. While GSWA was non-canon, I was perfectly within my rights to claim Walvis.

But given the history you have written for GSWA (starting off in Walvis Bay/Swakopmund/Langstrand, and expanding into the surrounding area), I think we could easily integrate this article and Walvis Bay. There are a few things we might need to work out, of course, but otherwise I think it could work well. For example, I think the early days of GSWA need a re-think, as Langstrand is only a minor holiday village, and the Langstrand area is much too close to Walvis Bay for them not to discover each other for 6 years. - Mister Sheen 15:26, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Rather than delete the Langstrand part, I could write in that they came into contact earlier than 6 years, and Swakopmund would be discovered at the 6 year mark. Arstarpool 19:07, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Given the distance and relationship between Langstrand, Walvis, and Swakopmund (and the fact that this area wasn't nuked); that would still be like Newark and New York not discovering eachother for 6 years.

Also, how do the Germans become such a dominant power? Namibia was in the middle of a War of Independence when Doomsday hit. Given the collapse of South Africa into a warlord-state, it's pretty clear that SWAPO would take full control of the area from the South African army. After that, SWAPO would decide on the name, flag, CoA, official languages, currency and capital city. A bunch of German immigrants aren't going to dominate over SWAPO and make the country into a second Germany.

Of course, we could set it up so that after South Africa retreats; SWAPO now have to fight against Germans to control this area. Or we could have it so that the Germans and SWAPO live together peacefully; but certainly not in a country with a German-esque flag, coat of arms, motto, capital city, language, and currency. There would be no way SWAPO would let that happen. - Mister Sheen 10:27, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

That has been the case in many Native American nations; Whites find themselves subjects of a Native nation, currency, flag, culture, and even language.The part I wrote in about the South African faction being absorbed could also lead to a war being fought for the area, though I doubt 90 soldiers could stand up against all of SWAPO. Nevertheless, a war of independence will problably be the solution.

One possibility for South and Southwest Africa.

I think that there would probably be more than one country-faction in this area. Also, I think more Germans, Afrikaaners and other Whites would band together (they might found a new settlement, rather than relocate to the mostly-Black area around Langstrand) - maybe as many as 30,000; if they came from across South Africa (which they probably would). That would create a decent-sized White state (which would basically be the beginnings of GSWA). Then, when the European Germans arrived, they would presumably settle in this White area.

Meanwhile, the South Africans would mostly relocate to these areas; leaving SWAPO to battle warlords and radical pro-Apartheid groups in the rest of Namibia. If GSWA begins in a new settlement (not Walvis or Langstrand), then we could leave the Walvis Bay article as it is.

To sum up:

• German South West Africa: A White-majority country founded by German-Africans, Afrikaaners, other White Africans and German immigrants. Capital is either Langstrand, Walvis, or a new settlement, depending on what we do. Also controls large areas around its capital. Officially neutral in the War, though most people are anti-SWAPO.
• Walvis Bay (only if GSWA doesn't control Walvis): A city state focussed on Walvis Bay and Swakopmund. Mostly Black, with a significant White minority. Neutral in the War, and has abolished Apartheid.
• SWAPO: Controls much of Northern Namibia, almost 100% Black. The main power in the War, fighting against various Warlords and other minor factions in Namibia's interior.

Langstrand, or any coastal town for that matter, is a very unlikely place for anyone to survive at all under these circumstances. Given the fact that the Namibian coastline is among the driest places on the planet, attempting to found a state there pretty much equals suicide.

The GSWA would probably be centred on Windhoek, and the Germans would definitely need the help of the Afrikaners and presumably the Rehoboth Basters as well to remain in control so to use their initial position of power. If they lose power over the city in the early stages after DD, simple demography would make it very unlikely for them to ever gain enough power to found a state again. Using the Afrikaners as slave labour for three months is killing for their position as they blatantly need them to remain in charge (presumably even to such an extent that the Afrikaners may de facto become more important to the state than the actual Deutschnamibier), seconly it would make the GSWA a pariah state for the other current members of the NUSA, which means that they would never have been able to join that union in the first place.

Abolishing apartheid seems extremely unlikely under the given circumstances, with race relations more likely to have harshened than improved once survival become an object in itself.

In the timeline, there is no such thing as a South African National Defence Force, South Africa having become the Republic of the Cape.

Considering that most Deutschnambier are whole generations away from Germany, and pejoratively refer to "German Germans" as 'Deutschländer' or 'Jeriies', they are unlikely to devote their scarce resources to fancy expeditions to Europe.

Anyone, those were my two cents on this article. --Karsten vK (talk) 13:38, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

The area around Langstrand/Walvis Bay is actually kind of an anomaly, as it has one of the most pleasant climates in Namibia (though you're right about the rest of Namibia's coastline, for example the Skeleton Coat further North). Also, the incredibly rich Ocean around that area could more than support a little town like Langstrand. But I agree, Langstrand would be a very unlikely place for a new country.

I also agree that GSWA might be centred on Windhoek, or somewhere in that area. I still think the Deutschnamibier would found a new city, to avoid being 'marginalised' by Black Africans. You are definitely right about the Afrikaners; they would be absolutely necessary to a White State in this area.

As for Apartheid, it has not been fully abolished in Walvis Bay: Blacks and Whites are "separate but equal", as they have equal rights but are mostly still segregated. This was because the people of Walvis were desperate not to have Blacks and Whites degenerate into war, and this was the best way to keep the peace.

And as for the SANDF, when I said the "South African Army", I was talking about the final days of South Africa before it collapsed into various other states. - Mister Sheen 14:38, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sheen, if you had actually read through the article, you would see that Langstrand was or is not the capital. I simply chose to write that one in first. As for the aforementioned part on SWAPO, I wrote in most of the best of what I could come up with. Karsten, please do read through an article, and take the take to research what has been written. You are absolutely wrong about the coastline. As for the crap on exploring the rest of Germany, I tried to write it in at the latest date as possible, giving the country as much time to fully stabilize before it funds a (massive) operation into North Europe. The sites I chose were sites that would be as realistic as possible, as there would be little hope in surviving along in Windhoek, as the surrounding lands are relatively infertile. As far as I'm concerned, I am keeping Langstrand and Swakopmund in until the end, and with Sheens approval, Walvis Bay as well. Arstarpool 04:27, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Sheen already commented on Langstrand apparently being an exception to the rule. Furthermore, I never stated anywhere that the timeframe of the expedition into Germany was impossible, I said that I can't see why they would devote their scarce resources to such an enterprise into so far away a land. Why would the Deutschnamibier be so keen on exploring a country they haven't been part of since WW I, and which they, considering the lack of communication in the post-Doomsday decades, will presumably have only further culturally alienated themselves from than they already were. Same thing applies to calling the capital Neu Berlin. I can imagine them caling in Neuwindhuk or something, but why call it after a presumably lost city in Europe where non of them will have probably set foot at all? As long as the community remains small, Windhoek's vicinity should be able to raise a sufficient amount of livestock, especially since Walvis Bay seems to be a canon nation already. --Karsten vK (talk) 15:54, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

I assumed that since Langstrand was the first city that GSWA decided to settle, it would HAVE to be the capital at some point, until they gained a larger city. I don't know why they choose to settle Langstrand before Swakopmund or Walvis Bay: that would be like choosing Seaside over Seattle. I do like the SWAPO stuff, but given the small proportion of Whites to Blacks, I think that GSWA would fight a Guerilla war, and would probably not take control of any major cities (given the size and experience of SWAPO). GSWA's main goal would be to establish themselves a sizeable White-majority area, and then defend it against SWAPO for as long as it took.

As for the Namibian coast, it is possibly the most arid, inhospitable area on Earth. See: this and this. I don't really care either way about the expeditions to Europe, I'm really not an expert (though I think the Deutschnamibier might feel some kind of comradeship with the Germans). But given that roughly 1/6 of Namibia's population live in Windhoek; and 1/2 of all the country's enterprises and facilities are in the city; it's clearly the easiest place to live in the whole country (though given the huge number of Blacks in the area, I doubt GSWA would want anything to do with Windhoek).

Once the whole situation is sorted: if GSWA still keeps the Swakopmund/Langstrand area, then Walvis will be a part of GSWA. But if things change around, and GSWA takes a different area (not near Walvis Bay), then Walvis will obviously not change. - Mister Sheen 16:15, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Any other objections? Arstarpool 21:06, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

A further suggestion

Blue areas are controlled by SWAPO.
Red is GSWA.
Orange is Walvis Bay.

Here's another suggestion. If GSWA had a guerrilla war against SWAPO, then this might be the result. Walvis Bay is kind of like a Neutral, Demilitarised Zone between the two factions.

The green area contains Windhoek. I though Windhoek might become a city-state (or another neutral zone, like Walvis Bay), so I added that in as well. - Mister Sheen 16:07, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Name Dispute

Can Lordganon please stop changing the German name of the country to one that is obviously from google translate or some other internet translator. Any student of the German language could tell you that Republik Deutsch-Südwestafrika is the correct translation!

Emperorjames

EJ, it is a correct translation. And this is not Germany where this state is. Nor is it your article.

And, I am a student of said language. I know full well that both are correct.

Please refrain from doing such a thing again.

Lordganon 21:00, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Let me explain. In German, a country's name such as, for example, "Vereinigtes Königreich Großbritannien und Nordirland" would translate literally as "United Kingdom Great Britain and North Ireland" (notice, no "des"). While, in this case "Republik des Deutschen Südwesten Afrika" would translate literally as "Republic of German South-West Africa", you cannot go simply by the use of literal translations, as this would be an inaccurate translation. In fact according to de.wikipedia (German), the only state to use "des" in its official name was the short lived "Republik des Heiligen Markus" in the state of Veneto. Heiligen Markus, San Marco, is a person, not a nation state. So note that "Republik Deutsch-Südwestafrika" is the correct translation.

No, the article is not mine, but I have the right to improve it, do I not?

"Please refrain from doing such a thing again", I believe I should be asking the same of you.

Please try and understand, and I hope that you can improve your German still further, as it is a beautiful language I am proud to speak!

Es ist vorbei, also jetzt, Ich sage "aufwiedersehen" zu dir

Emperorjames

You missed the points, entirely.

Actually, no, you do not have the right to do that, whatsoever.

I fully understand your logic. But, you entirely failed to get what I said about it. This is not Germany. Nor are most of the inhabitants German. There are very good reasons for a different translation.

As before, please do not do this again. And "Goodbye" to you, too.

Lordganon 00:34, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

One last time: refrain from editing this article. I'm not warning you again. Lordganon 04:48, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

LG this is a comunal timeline. Which means that anyone can make adjustments as they see fit, within reason of course. This is just another example of your transformation from a fairly decent user to "His Imperial Majesty". You are once again blowing an extremely minor issue out of proportion to flaunt your power. While I apreciate your asistance in the past, I cannot appreciate your disgustingly snobbish and forbidding behavior. Since when is an issue about minor German grammar worth a major meltdown. But, then agian, you can't back down without losing face and that seems to be intolerable to you. "Don't edit here again". Once again: Doomsday is a community, which means that pretty much anyone can post an edit if it's not either disruptive, vandalism, or both. Editing the German name of a nation is neither.

Yank 05:02, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yank, you need to calm down. Not a word of that is true.

The rules clearly state that he needs permission from the author/creator to edit it, barring some sort of spelling, etc. error, or adoption of it. This isn't that.

The name is proper as it stands at this time. There's no reason to be changing it. Hence, the warning.

Lordganon 05:36, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Lordganon,

Might I just ask that if I "do not have the right to (edit), whatsoever", then can you please explain to me the point of the big "EDIT" box at the top of every page; if certain users who displease you are not allowed to edit? Besides, I agree with Yank in that it is not the first time you have sought to silence your opponents over very minor issues (take for example, my nomination of Atlantic Iron Curtain as featured althist several months ago). I tried to be civil with you, pointing out a very slight tanslation mistake and asking you to correct it. You have reacted by effectively banning me from exercising the right of every wiki user to edit pages as they wish. I did not wish you to take this personally, although it is clear that you cannot take it any other way. I was very sure that you had reasons for reacting the way you did over several previous issues, although now I believe that I have seen your true colours. You have a serious superiority complex! I understand now why so many of the other users of this wiki (including those high up in its heirarchy) have been privately complaining about you, and I will now be joining in their chorus of dislike. Please understand that the problem here is evidently not with me or with other wiki users, but with you and you alone!

Sie brauchen viele Hilfe, weil Sie einen sehr großen und klar Problem haben! Ich anflehe Sie zu Halt mit Ihr Überreaktionen und zu verbessern Ihr Deutsch, vor Sie streiten über ein sehr schlicht und belanglos Fehler!

From someone who is not afraid to speak German or his mind,

Emperorjames

Okay, both of you need to calm down.

Emperorjames, this wiki differs from the others in the fact it isn't as free to edit as other wikias, as you should already know. Henceforth, LG is right; you can't edit other people's articles without their permision. Also, please do calm down. This issue is too minor for something such as that. And just writing in German doesn't mean you can write whatever you want; this wiki has some civility matters. Cut it out.

LG, please do calm down as well. You're right with the editing part and I don't know about German grammar. But a warning is just too far for something as banal as this.

Fed (talk) 17:39, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Can Fed please point me in the direction of the creator/owner of this article. Also, I have had several of my articles edited without my permission, and I've been mostly fine with it, as is the case with the vast majority of articles on this wiki. Could you please point me to the area in the guidelines where the editing rules are stated?

I have been calm and civil up until this point, and yet have gotten nowhere. Who should I appeal to if I wish to complain against one of the "highest up" members of this wiki?

Please answer these questions, as I would like to be made furhter aware of how I should be handling this situation.

Emperorjames

I can only ask him nicely to stop so many times before I have to warn him, Fed.

EJ, your nomination was voted down by the community. Get over it, please. You're not being calm. Please calm down.

Looking at your articles quickly, none have been edited by anyone else past the proper addition of categories.

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Alternative_History:Conventions_in_use_in_this_wiki

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/QSS_and_QAA

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Editorial_Guidelines_(1983:_Doomsday)

...And looking at things, the article is Arstar's, which given his instructions to me, pretty much means that I'm the caretaker right now. Forgotten about this one, lol.

Lordganon 08:25, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

Expansion and up-to dateness

I was wondering if this article could be made up to date. As well as this, I think the country would have expanded more by now towards the South and other NUSA countries. On top of that, I think more German immigrants must have also arrived. Thoughts? :/ Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 16:15, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead and write it in. Arstar talk 00:26, October 16, 2012 (UTC)