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- 1 General Discussion
- 1.1 Welcome
- 1.2 General Timeline Proposal 1.0
- 1.3 Current TL for Europe, Late 1241 to Early 1250's
- 1.4 The Americas
- 1.5 On Choosing nations
- 1.6 A Note
- 1.7 On Graduation
- 1.8 New Khanate
- 1.9 Various Suggestions
- 1.10 On Standardization
- 1.11 Article Proposals
- 1.12 Invitation Proposal
- 1.13 Good Timeline- Yet, Poor Rules and Exceution
- 1.14 Adoption Proposal
- 1.15 Map Proposal and Prototype
- 1.16 Music
Hallo, gents. There are a couple of things we need to work out 'fore we get to it.
- We need a peer-review process
- We need to agree on a general timeline for the first 100 years or so, so people don't get confused and start clashing their canon.
POD is December 11th, 1241, where Oggy Khan survives.
ATM, we're looking at the furthest reaches of the Mongols hitting South-Eastern France, Most of Germany- a few bits to the North-West would be spared, by and large- and most of Italy. They'll be keeping Eastern Europe up to about Poland. And, of course, Khanstantinople.
After that comes the Black Plague, which piggy-backs the horde. Based on estimates from OTL- from China and Europe- we estimated that in Germany, France, and Italy, we could be talking death rates of between 65-80% of the populace. The Mongols and the Plague combined killed something like 55% of the population of China around this time. In Europe, JUST the plague killed 65% or so. This primarily due to the fact that there are far more city dwellers in Europe than China. Since the Mongols would be sweeping the countryside, people would hole up in cities- where the plague would sweep deadly.
18:36, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
So is the whole Mongol Empire going to be divided between Genghis Khan's descendants (like Ilkhanate, Golden Horde, etc) or is it going to stay whole?
It will break up into 5-6 Khanates, but slightly later than OTL. Upvote, that sig is ridiculous. Also, you have to be invited- you can't apply. --22:51, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
Can we have the Mongols conquer Japan? I personally think it's not unreasonable in this timeline.
23:11, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
That. Scraw, your idea, your article.
23:32, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
I have a Mongol conquest of Japan in my TL, it is easily plausible, just get rid of the famous typhoon that destroyed much of the Mongol fleet after the Battle of Bun'ei.
Ask on someone's talkpage, not here. Also, like, we are trying to keep this small. IDK- we'll see if the votes passes, if someone chooses to invite you.
01:19, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
General Timeline Proposal 1.0
In 1242, Batu Khan and the Mongol horde sweep into Balkanized Germany and Austria. Most of the Austrian countryside is overrun within two months, and Vienna is taken after a defector opens a backdoor into the city, allowing the Mongols to swarm into the city. Vienna is razed to the ground and its most of its civilian population executed. Most of the rest of the nation surrenders upon hearing of the fall of Vienna.
In Germany, initial success bogs down as too much time is needed to capture each individual principality, as there is no central authority to surrender to the invaders. Frustrated, Ögedei's forces are forced to leave behind hundreds of castles as they continue with their swift move westward. It takes them over six months to overrun (still with castles left behind) most of Germany.
In order to counter the Mongol threat, the Catholic Church declares a defensive crusade, calling on all Christian nations to fight the Mongol invaders. England, Portugal, Castille, Aragon, Leon, France, and even Sweden respond with by volunteering troops - with Venice staying out of the war. However, each clash between the Crusaders and the Mongols results in a decisive Mongol victory due to superior tactics. But, Mongol forces are losing the war of attrition, with many horses dying from starvation, overworking, and battle. Only 4,000 Mongols have died compared to 22,000 Europeans, but their original army was not all that large. More importantly, they are losing horses - the ideal ratio of 5-15 horses per soldier is reduced to 3, and the army has lost 15% of its manpower. All this sets up the final stand of European force in Germany.
On November 22, 1242, against the advise of his senior leadership, Batu Khan and his 29,000 Mongols and 31,000 Turkish auxillaries move into the Teutoburg Forest, determined to take out the last vestiges of Germanic resistance, who are holed up in the forest. Lead by relatively unknown German commander General Adolf von Hohenstaufen, descendant of the Hohenstaufen royal bloodline, utilizes the thick foliage (which restricted Mongol horse movements greatly) and ambush with a nearly all-German force (the French army had fled the forest upon hearing of the Mongol advance) almost completely annihilates the Mongol force in a decisive engagement not unlike the first Battle of Teutoburg Forest. 11,000 Mongols are killed, an unprecedented number for a relatively untouched Mongol army. Of the original 31,000 Turkish auxillaries only 9,000 remained, with the rest having been killed, captured, or fled. Batu Khan himself nearly survives and retreats out of the forest, humiliated and defeated.
Now with a far smaller force than originally planned, Batu Khan is forced to retreat. However, good news arrives - Kadan, son of Ögedei, is arriving with one tumen - 10,000 men - of reinforcements. He still remains cautious, however, remembering his defeat in the Teutoburg Forest.
Then, in a surprise move on Christmas Day, 1242, the city of Venice reveals that they have sought and received a treaty of alliance with the Mongols - partly because of their desire to spite the church, and partly because the Mongols control the Silk Road, which Venice relies on for trade. Meanwhile, France has signed a non-aggression pact with the horde, seeking to break away from the influence of the Papacy. All French forces remaining (most had already left under various excuses) retreat back into France, leaving the Papacy bare to the Mongol threat. Faced with the threat of the Mongols and Venice, which the church has always had a strained relationship with, the Vatican reluctlantly invites Batu Khan for discussions of peace.
After a three-day negotiation, the Mongols sign the Treaty of the Holy See. What used to be the eastern part of the Holy Roman Empire is absorbed into the Mongol Empire, as well as Eastern Europe. France is kept mostly safe from Mongol raids, with most raids going towards the Low Countries, Italy, and even Switzerland. General Adolf von Hohenstaufen is given the kingship over what remains of the Holy Roman Empire, elevating the House of Hohenstaufen once more.
Meanwhile, reports begin circulating of a mysterious new plague...
My first thoughts on this matter are in regards to your comments on the Holy Roman Empire. Although they aren't really centralized, the Holy Roman Empire had about as much of a central government as say France did, although many historians point to the current emperor at the time of this timeline, Frederick II, as being the start of decentralization. At this time Frederick II had a large army in Italy, which he would probably march north, along with additional forces levied from within the empire, and combat the Mongols. I think this invasion might temporarily end the feud between the papacy and the emperor, since both groups would have to band together against the Mongols. You'd probably see a large crusade, spearheaded by Germans (like many of Frederick's OTL ones), but including large armies from all across Europe.
I'd say a treaty is probably signed in Germany or in Padua, where Frederick II held court for long periods of time, and in the off chance it's held in Rome, they would probably not call the "Treaty of the Holy See". More like "of Rome" at the least, or a long Latin phrase.
Who is this Adolf guy, did you make him up? Also what do you mean by elevating the Hohenstaufens? They are already in control of the empire.
- We can't make up people. Choose a real noble from OTL, who was alive around this time (unless Adolf was real, in which case, carry on).
- I don't see the Church calling a crusade; they'd benefit from Ol' Freddy getting screwed over.
- England and Portugal cannot volunteer troops; Portugal has no INTEREST in doing so, and England is fighting a war against the French and thus has more to gain from a Mongol victory than the others. (Castille and Aragon are fine, though, they're pretty close).
- Sweden, likewise, ain't sending anything- but in their case because there isn't really a stable government, and half of em aren't Christian, anyway.
- The ambush can't be THAT deadly, or the Mongols would be all but defeated. Think Antietam, not Gettysburg. The Euro armies push back the Mongols, with heavy losses to both sides; the Mongols still have fighting capability, but the Europeans have proven that they CAN win.
I'll have more soon.
22:49, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
Having talked to Pita, he has now decided to make up a descendant of a Swiss guy who at one point was notable in the 1000's, as part of a made up royal family he has now coined. As I said on chat, personally I think the best course of action is to research actual history and politics at this time, not implant a narrative about the French Resistance into the 13th century, without any understanding of what's going on. Note, that was said after a long conversation on chat about Pita's ideas.
Overall though, it's a solid start, just not a fan of making up people when there's a ton of people there and the possibility for some Game of Thrones type intrigue with real people. Maybe I'm just a huge German history fan, and I'm letting that get the best of me. As for the crusade, it will be a crusade or not, whether or not the pope calls it officially, based on the definition of the word alone. I agree the pope might have an agenda against Frederick, but let's say hypothetically the two sign a peace treaty under Mongol pressure, the two could possibly work together. Either way, if the Mongols directly threaten the Pope he'll probably have no choice. Plus it would look kind of out of character for the pope to side with the Mongols directly, that would just put all of Europe against him.
Making up people is not a thing that is going to happen. There are a ton of people in this time period. Don't be lazy, use one.
23:11, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
Ms and Guns are right. No making people up unless all other options are exhausted. Although, I can see a crusade in the works, if the HRE gets rekt, you'll have an open gateway to the Pope's own doorstep for the Mongols to come in through. England, Sweden, and Portugal, also wouldn't send troops, as stated by Guns. Other than that, the timeline's great. Love Venice backstabbing the Papacy and the Catholic world calling a crusade. —Bfoxius (talk)
All this seems pretty great, but I would like to add on that England wins the war agaisnt France and makes them sign a peace treaty - they cannot be fighting two wars at the same time if you get what I mean? Otherwise France would collapse and so would European resistance and the Mongols would be able to dominate France.
Theoretically if at this point the Mongols had already failed to invade Japan, coincidental storm or not, they'd probably choose the more easily taken Europe than Japan, although it is up for debate really. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
I'd say yes, although I realized earlier today that it wouldn't be much of a backstab, since the Mongols and Venetians already had a formal alliance. Basically they had a deal that the Mongols would destroy/raid all non Venetian trade stations. Mscoree (talk) 21:34, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
This^^. It makes for a more interesting story to me, and I feel Japan should remain OTL, with the Mongols failing an invasion. As for the "backstab", its hardly a secret if there is a formal alliance in place, though I could of course see how other Euro nations could see it as a betrayal of Trust. On the Papacy thing, what do you actually want to happen? The Mongols could seize the area I suppose, or enforce hegemony, but wouldn't it make more sense to just move it to Avignon? I mean the papacy is still quite important to Christendom yeah?FOR THE GLORY OF THE PARTY! 17:30, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't need to be Teutoburg per se, just another euro battle, I seriously doubt that, even with all the division, that the Euros would just lay down and die. There needs to be more than one battle, whether it be a pyric victory or not.FOR THE GLORY OF THE PARTY! 17:48, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
You have to consider the tactics of both sides. The Europeans in OTL won several ambushes against the Mongols, and were able to basically harass and draw forces from the invading force. Considering that here the Mongols are entering ares less desirable for their tactics, and would be forced to fight in forests and other areas where they were less accustomed to, where their age old tactic of feigning would be less effective, I'd say they lose many minor battles. What is being proposed here though is that there should be at least one definitive battle in which they lose outright, probably after a long campaign in Germany that wears them down. Mscoree (talk)
We have that. It'll be at Mainz, not at Teutoburg, and a combined Franco-German army will throw back the Mongols. After that defeat, the Mongols, with their enemies now remoralized and running out of food and men, will sign the Treaty of Rome, giving them large parts of Europe permanently in exchange for peace.
Japan NOT falling OTL was pretty ASB. The Japanese strategy was literally to sit down and pray for a massive storm, which is extremely rare. Butterfly wings etc.
22:56, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
As I've said before though, if the point of divergence is so that the Mongols have their attention shifted on Europe, you'd think they'd choose Europe, which appears much easier to take, than Japan which they previously failed to do. Not that they couldn't take Japan, just that they'd have less of an incentive to. Mscoree (talk) 23:02, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Look, Japan always sees massive storms and a lot of those times it is beneficial to the nation. Weather patterns do not change because of man made actions changing. The butterfly effect has no "effect" on climate - unless it is to do with a nuclear explosion or something. So Japan will probably still be free - and become a seafaring power earlier because they will be cut off from everyone else. Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:59, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Now, I may not be a member of this timeline, but may I interject here; seeing as this is partly untrue. You see, climate PODs are ASB (barring a nuclear winter or something else on that scale). Weather PODs, however, are not. The general pattern is very butterfly-resistant, but the individual events are quite easy to tweak. There's a reason why the term "butterfly effect" was first coined by a meteorologist. And seeing as the POD involves a TON of butterflies (a Mongol invasion of Europe) years before any invasion of Japan, you can easily end up with no "kamikaze winds" in this timeline. RichMill | Talk 10:17, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Current TL for Europe, Late 1241 to Early 1250's
- Mongols invade Austria, siege Vienna, and pursue the fleeing Duke Frederick II to his previous court at Wiener Neustadt. The mobility of the Mongols however allows them to catch up quickly, and the Duke of Austria loses the city, followed by Graz, and is ultimately killed at the Battle of the Drava River in southern Austria.
- The death of the Duke of Austria causes a succession crisis, with the last heir to the Babenburg dynasty being Gertrude. Several of Austria’s neighbors are determined to take the throne, but this is largely determined based on each nation’s ability to repel the Mongols.
- Wenceslaus I of Bohemia seeks to place his son Vladislaus, Margrave of Moravia on the throne of Austria, ensuring that Bohemia and Austria would be united under the Přemyslid dynasty.
- Initially the Bohemians hold off the Mongols to some degree, albeit with heavy losses and with the loss of southern Bohemia. Concurrently a second army attacks Bohemia from Poland, and Bohemia falls to Mongol forces.
- Vladislaus dies at one point or another. Gertrude of Austria flees and marries Herman VI, Margrave of Baden, who claims the Austrian throne.
- The Bohemian duke’s inability to safeguard Bohemia leads to his son Ottokar II seizing control of Bohemia’s armies. Infighting largely inhibits the Bohemians’ ability to retaliate against the Mongols.
- Probably some sort of alliance between Ottokar II and Otto II of Bavaria.
- The Emperor Frederick II reluctantly signs a peace treaty with Pope Innocent IV, and agrees to leaves Italy.
- The pope provides monetary support to Frederick II’s rivals, going as far as to support Heinrich Raspe, landgrave of Thuringia in his plot to seize the imperial throne. The archbishops of Cologne and Mainz declare Frederick deposed, and Heinrich Raspe is later declared the new king.
- Frederick II manages to successfully defend northern Italy to some degree, while at the same time his army defeats Ranieri near Spello. Venetian lands are raided by the Germans, but pressed for time, little to no territory is seized.
- Ultimately, after a certain amount of time of continued fighting after the peace was signed, the emperor signs a real peace with the pope and Italian states in Padua, before withdrawing over the Alps to Swabia, to defend his personal possessions in Germany.
- Heinrich Raspe is killed in a costly and futile charge against Mongol forces, shattering the movement against Frederick II. The majority of German states elect to support Frederick II, now that Germany itself is largely under the threat of invasion.
- Insert somewhere: WIlliam II, Count of Holland launches a revolt against Frederick II, declaring himself king over the emperor.
- With Frederick II now absent from Italy, the city of Parma expels its Imperial administration, followed by several other cities. Romagna, Marche, and Spoleto are soon lost. Sicily however remains in Frederick’s possession, with his enemies now working against the Mongols rather than against his Italian possessions.
- The Mongols plunge simultaneously into Italy and Germany, punching through the German-Italian forces. The collapse- and the death of Raspe- convinces the Pope to truly back Frederick.
- Frederick, watching his Empire collapse, desperately asks for aid, and the Pope, seeing a massive crisis, decides to set aside their differences with Frederick- albeit extremely temporarily, and calls for a crusade upon the Mongols. The French, Castilians, Aragonians, and several smaller states come to help, but England refuses, as does Sweden.
- While the combined armies of most of Europe are gathering, Konrad makes a stand in Bavaria, near Munich, and is defeated again. He just about survives, while his brother, William, does not. (Use the battle segment here)
- Frederick finally takes what remains of the German armies to Mainz to meet up with the French and Spanish, while the Mongols begin raids into eastern France (basically, right across the Rhine) and Northern Italy, causing fears that the Mongols will next attack either Paris or Rome.
- The Mongols choose Paris first, due to the difficulty of crossing the Alps in winter (I’m assuming the previous stages took us to winter), and send an army 100,000 strong (mostly auxiliaries from Turkey, Venice, and collaborating German states and conscripts) to Mainz, to clear the way for the Mongol invasion. This is the main part of the Mongol fighting force in Europe.
- At Mainz, the combined armies of Christendom slightly outnumber the Mongols, around 150,000 to 100,000. They join battle, and the Euros manage to trick the Mongols into launching an attack against their deceptively weak right flank- when the Mongols DO attack, the French cavalry swings around, smashing into the flank of the Mongol attack, and causing thousands of casualties, then fold the center and left around the main Mongol force, restricting their fighting space, though not completely surrounding them. The Mongols fight for a few more hours, but lose nearly 35,000 men in that time, forcing a withdrawal. The Euros lose nearly 50,000, but are soon reinforced by other nations, including a late English force. If you want, a less important son dies.
- The Mongols, confronted with a force now nearly 4x their size, withdraw back in a hurry. A few more months of fighting follow, but the Mongol potential for attacking is now basically gone, and they sign a peace treaty in Spring, giving them Bohemia and Austria, as well as Eastern Europe, in exchange for peace.
- Some sort of civil war occurs in Germany, which does not end until nearly forty years later, with the coronation of Henry VII von Luxembourg as Holy Roman Emperor.
- Black Plague, spread by the hordes and by the armies, kills huge numbers. Over 75% of the population of Germany and Northern Italy is killed by the two factors, while France is also devastated, the plague killing millions. Other nations- such as England and Spain- also suffer, but much less, and the 3 biggest powers of Europe are finished.
- A divided Castile, depleted following the plague and the wars, collapses into civil war and various muslim nations advance into Spain...
- Fred dies a bitter old man etc etc
Ms and self have fact checked and stuff, all this is based on actual estimates and OTL events. Thoughts, reactions?
23:48, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Seems pretty logical. On another note, does the timeline really go all the way to 1450ish? I assume the last few events take us there, but just making sure.
1-21 get us to the early 1250s. 22-25 take us to around 1350.
01:22, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
I quite like it. I like the fact that there's a Luxembourg rather than a made-up dynasty at the end. I do think Mainz is a tad too far east (I'd rather the Mongols be stopped at the Seine), but if that is the consensus, oh well. Fed (talk) 03:38, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Fed. I'm thinking Metz or Luxemburg would be better IMO.
Also, does the plague come directly (1-3 yearsish) after the Mongol invasion?
I have no preference on how far the Mongols go. Mainz is Guns' project and I went ahead with it, although if we all agree to something closer that is perfectly fine with me. At the moment let Mainz serve as a place holder, and when we actually write this part and gauge what is actually plausible we can pick something around there. The Siene, Metz, and Luxembourg are all valid options really. Mscoree (talk) 11:41, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Plague would actually start spreading just before the Mongols spread- after all, they're bringing it with them, like the Euros brought smallpox to the New World.
I thought the Seine might be a bit too far, but I'm fine with that, if everyone else is- we can have the battle near Paris.
Ooh or on the Marne? Miracle of the Marne, 700 years early?
22:39, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Isn't the black death not for a long while after? Not to mention that in OTL the areas directly raided by the Mongols, namely Poland and Russia, had little to no major outbreaks of the plague, or at least not until much later, far less than the rest of Europe. It is less so the Mongol conquests, and more so the interconnected trade networks they left behind that led to the plague, but again that is not until a while after this. Mscoree (talk) 23:14, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Didn't the European outbreak coincide with a larger outbreak of the plague across Eurasia?
Somewhat. The Eurasian plague got really big around 30-40 years before it appeared in Europe. It kept expanding, of course.
The plague, however, WAS recorded in China around this time. It just didn't get as bad as OTL until later. It IS possible for the plague to hit, and it would help a lot with the collapse of the HRE.
00:06, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
I guess it might happen around 1300 though... cause more damage and devastation, probably coupled by further Mongol attacks.
The 13th and 14th centuries were good ones for the Grim Reaper, lol.
00:40, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
I've been working on a page for a while now. England. Does it contradict anything here? I just want to be sure before I write more stuff.
03:15, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
From first glance the only interference is the Kingdom of Sicily. We're considering having the Hohenstaufen keep it, at least for a bit longer, as ATL the Pope/Italians launch a campaign against the Mongols instead of against Frederick II. Here Frederick is a fellow member of the coalition, so it seems a bit odd to promise land from your ally. Since I'm not entirely sure on Sicily past that point (they will probably lose it later, or form some sort of new creation), I can't say with certainty much more on the subject. Mscoree (talk) 03:33, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
OK, well that can be fixed. It's a pretty minor detail and was only a way for me to remove one branch of the succession. I can find another way if necessary.
03:43, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Dammit Scraw, I wanted England. I'll take Scotland - and Japan. Let it be known I call these nations, and India too. That is right - all three are mine! :P Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:14, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
If we're calling things, I call Germany/Holy Roman Empire, as that is probably what I'll work on the most. That said I am of course open to collaboration, as is the nature of this project. Mscoree (talk) 22:13, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Come on Imp, I have already written about Scotland and three Scottish kings. I'm trying to maintain continuity in the Isles. You can have those other two, I have no problem with that.
Also, a broader question, is the world of 2014 still a blank canvas? Can we pretty much do anything? Does it matter who the major powers are, or if Mongolia still exists?
23:01, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Impo, you shouldn't write India. All of us have our biases, and we shouldn't touch them for the good of the TL. If we add Viva, we're not letting him write Africa. Same thing with you and India, or me and the Holy Russian Empire, or Scraw and NY.
23:03, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
@Scraw The present day is a blank canvas in the sense that we are building history up to that point, not the other way around. Will Mongolia serve and be a great power? Who knows, we'll find out when we get there. In my mind at least, we have made the conscientious decision to build whatever world is in store based on the facts presented now, rather than deciding what you expect and then coming up with some sort of way to reach those predetermined goals. Mscoree (talk) 23:22, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Now time for me to pull a Viva and write about the Mali breaking s*** in North Africa.
I will also be writing about the SCANDANAVIANS. NOBODY TOUCH THAT.
(jk about the pulling a Viva part)
00:07, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
So any objections to adding this to the main TL page, save the decisive battle's location?
So who will discover them and when? And we should decide on names (no north/south, guys).
23:23, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
The Americas are a bit ahead of us at the moment, and I can't really comment with any degree of certainty, but probably a nation in Western Europe. As for its name, that is up for debate, and partially dependent on the path colonization takes us. Mscoree (talk) 23:32, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
England will discover them, IMO. Survived the Mongols more or less unscathed. The Spanish got eaten by the Moors and Berbers, and HRE and French got rekt by the plague and the Mongols, and the Swedes and Danes are just too disorganized and small.
I vote Atlantia for the North and Amazonia for the South.
00:04, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
I agree on Amazonia but think the North should be called something else.
00:32, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
Methinks Portugal will discover them IMO with no Spain. Also, due to a stronger Golden Horde/possible European Khanate, I think exploration for alternate trade routes would begin sooner.
For names, I have some ideas, but we should develop them once we really start working on the colonial period.
Dibs on Spain, Scandanavia, and Mali.
00:49, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
On Choosing nations
Bias. It's something present in all of us, like the demon on our shoulder. "Just make that nation a LITTLE more powerful. SURELY they could win that war, right? It just takes a bit of luck. Just ONE more nation. Oh, well, I guess one continent isn't THAT large." It's there in all of us, and it kills map games and TLs faster than Zeus hurls Usain Bolts at Thor.
So I propose a solution. All of us have fairly well known biases. I have tried to create a Holy Russian Empire in literally every TL I have edited; thus far, due to some stupid "plausibility" rules, I've failed. Scraw would have NY as a superpower if he could. Impo is convinced that India must into super-powerdom, rather than the more likely split into 5-6 nations. Viva, who's a contender to join... well, let's not talk about Viva.
So here's my proposal; we should all note our biases, and NOT edit them. This isn't a rule or even a guideline- it's just a suggestion. I promise not to create a Holy Russian Empire. Impo, no offense, but I really think you shouldn't write a united India. Scraw, have fun; I REALLY doubt you can make NY into a superpower plausibly.
That said- Scandanavia, Spain, and the Mali are MINE. Touch them and feel my wrath!
(Impo, I'm not saying you shouldn't write India- I'm just saying you shouldn't insist that it unites fully and becomes stronk before the 20th century or so. The Mughals spent 90% of their time conquering the south and getting thrown out of the south.)
00:28, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that's why I picked England instead of France for this one. I'm also gunning for Russia (which will just be Muscovy and probably not extend past the Urals) and I've written a little about Portugal.
Also I don't have any plans for New York except for being a big city under a different name in an American nation.
00:40, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
00:49, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
I will try to resist the urge to destroy New York, and curtail my Boston bias. As I said above, I want to claim the Holy Roman Empire, simply because I am knowledgeable on the subject and enjoy writing on the subject. That said, I also enjoy destroying the Holy Roman Empire, so I doubt I'd be too bias in that regard. Also from above, I welcome all collaboration and suggestions across the timeline. Mscoree (talk) 00:56, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, my biases are pretty well-known (Western US/Canada, particularly the Pacific Northwest and the Insular Celtic nations, plus a few smaller ones that are not as apparent). In fact, most areas I write on are written about due to a bias I have in some form or another. I wholeheartedly encourage users to tell me about any wanks in my pages. That being said, I'd like to write on Western North America, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Brittany simply because I know a decent bit about those nations and simply find it fun to write about them.
That attitude is perfect. What I'm worried about here is that some editor- let's call him "Limpo"- will insist that his favorite nation must be stronk and must control all it's lands, and go full on Vivimpire when someone points out his wanks.
01:24, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
Well, let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
I don't really have a bias, in my honest opinion. I tend to take on any nation that I end up with due to a TL/map game, and then I attach myself to that nation and want it to be awesome. That being said, I think it'd be best if people regularly check my stuff to ensure nothing becomes too out of proportion. I will be starting off with France. Thanks, Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 15:10, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
I recently was told that users were annoyed that Rex was allowed into the timeline without a vote. I have a completely legitimate reason for this and it is that he was invited by me, in the initial wave of invitations, with the approval of Guns, like all other users participating on this TL as of December 21, 2014, sans Pita. He didn't join right after I invited due to him being busy with finals. The same thing is happening with FirstStooge, only he hasn't joined yet.
I think we should finish the beginning part of the timeline page before graduating any proposals.
That's a good idea. I noticed some of the pages go several centuries into the future, but I recommend against this, because this early in the timeline (at least for me) it's very hard to judge what will happen to specific nations so far in the future with any degree of certainty. I'll work on the Mongol Invasion page myself, which hopefully gets us a bit of the way closer. If we do grad a few nation pages, those authors should be aware that they will probably have to change/update the history as we progress, as it can't be expected to have everything figured out at once. Mscoree (talk) 19:23, December 23, 2014 (UTC)
Before we move much further with the Timeline, we're probably going to need a name for the new Khanate. I was thinking the "Khanate of the Franks", but I think we need more ideas. Anyone have any? Upvoteanthology (Talk | Sandbox)
You mean the one created in Europe? I think it should be called some colored horde. Maybe the Red Horde. Or maybe it could be called after whoever ruled. I'm thinking perhaps Kadan, son of Ogedei, or one of Batu's sons.
Also, put your signature in a template.
01:30, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
Here are some suggestions that I have gathered from people on chat. Their ideas really got me thinking, as they certainly bring up some good points.
The first thing people suggested was that nations like England and Castile shouldn't be involved in the war, as they have nothing to gain, and in most cases are tied up elsewhere. In Castile's case, they have a large heathen threat right on their border, while England would probably benefit more from continental nations being taken down a notch. France too would probably not get involved at first, as you could make the argument that they could benefit from the Holy Roman Empire's powers being diminished. They would probably join later, after the pope had called for aid, and when they began to be threatened personally. For those reasons I don't think Spain should collapse, in the sense that nations like Castile are wiped out. Anyway, that's what was said on chat, and for the most part I agree with that, so I will leave it here for discussion. Mscoree (talk) 02:10, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
I am OK with England not being in the war, and I can also see Castile not being involved.
02:21, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
Similarly a lot of people are saying that the Mongols shouldn't get as far, as the more I write I seem to agree. So far I have written that in Italy the Mongols get as far as Forli before turning back (going any farther means the Mongols enter the mountains and basically get annihilated anyway. In northern Germany I say that the Germans get close to Berlin, but not including Berlin, before turning back to south Germany, where they continue to at least Augsburg. I added a Teutonburg Forest type thing in the Altdorf Forest, and although I haven't yet said where the Mongols stop in Germany, it's probably going to be more along the lines of Wurzburg or Stuttgart, worst case scenario Frankfurt. Past that it doesn't seem like an invasion of France or the Rhineland will occur, at least not yet. Mscoree (talk) 01:48, December 31, 2014 (UTC)
Now, at the time of the Mongol invasion of Europe, it is my understanding there existed the four Crusader states (Jerusalem, Antioch, Tripoli, and Cilicia). In addition, the King of France (Louis IX) was waging a crusade against the Ayyubids in Egypt when the whole Mongol thing started to go into Poland. I believe Louis had already been ransomed prior to the POD, but would someone who knows more about this please weigh in? What crusader states were quasi-French, which were quasi-HRE, and which quasi-English (if any)? What would there fates be? Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 07:17, January 2, 2015 (UTC)
As far as I can tell Louis IX went on two crusades (in the Middle East) in his lifetime; 1248 (Seventh Crusade) and 1270 (Eighth Crusade). At the time of the Mongol Invasions in OTL he was likely planning this invasion as the First Council of Lyon had formally begun this process. At the ATL First Council of Lyon the focus is of course on the Mongols, and I'd imagine that Louis' crusades in the Middle East are replaced with campaigns against the Mongols.
The Kingdom of Jerusalem is probably "quasi-HRE", as you describe, since after the Fifth Crusade Frederick II crowned himself king in the city. This doesn't include Beirut, Caesarea, Arsuf, and the Kingdom of Cyprus, which were under John I of Beirut. Also having said that, in 1239 the Kingdom would also be expanded by the Theobald IV, Count of Champagne and others. The Kingdom would continue to be ruled by the Hohenstaufens until 1268.
Overall though it is hard to pinpoint most of the crusader states as "quasi-something". In most cases, unless a specific state had conquered it (like Frederick II to Jerusalem), the crusader states aren't usually aligned with their original nations in full. You could always look up the states' origins, but that won't necessarily mean they are vassals or heavily aligned with any nation. Mscoree (talk) 15:01, January 2, 2015 (UTC)
One thing that particularly irks me about 83:DD is the variety in how the pages are formatted. Perhaps thats just me being overly uptight, but I think we can make inroads in this area for KF. This is just a rough outline, but I think we should ultimately set a format for all pages to follow in order to be canonized. If passed, this should probably go in the Editorial Guidelines.
For nation pages...
- Use of Template:NationBox
- Start with "The <full name>, (<native language>: <full name in native language>)" then some variation on "also known as <common name>..."
- Have a Leader that complies with Wiki's general guideline for Intros... "It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."
- This should be comprised of 2-3 paragraphs.
- Then, the next sections should be in a sequential order. Naturally, not all sections would be need 100% of the time; this is just a suggestion for if they are needed, what order they ought to go in...
- Etymology (only will be needed in Americas, I think)
- Subsections should be done chronologically with dates following a short written description
- IE, Revolutionary War Period (1775 - 1783)
- Geography (if you deem it needed)
- Government (or "Government and Politics")
- <Name of executive/monarch title>
- <Name of legislature>
- <Political parties> (If applicable)
- Air Force (in the modern-day)
- Demographics (if desired)
- Sub-sections as needed (trying to go from most primitive form to most modern), so:
- Sub-sections as needed (trying to go from most primitive form to most modern), so:
- For a section that will have subsections, I would advise having some text between the Heading 2 and the Heading 3 in order to summarize all of the detail.
- When an additional page provides better detail (for instance, a page on the History of the Holy Roman Empire) use Template:Main, with the first and second parameters filled
- Template:Infobox military conflict. Again, we would want a 2-3 paragraph leader.For format, I was thinking something along the lines of:*Background*Combatants*<First phase of the war>*<Second phase> (continue as needed, no more than 3-4)*Treaty of <placename>*AftermathFor people, I don't have a go-to template per se, so somebody ought to suggest one that works well across the board. For the layout, I was thinking something like this:*Family History*Early Life*<First Major Title> (If not his primary title latter on)*Reign*Death and LegacyDo any of you see something that you disagree with or a suggestion for improvement? Hope this helps in writing and approving articles. Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 08:34, January 3, 2015 (UTC)Oh! A couple more (quick) things.#I forgot to mention religion. That would probably go under Demographics if that section exists, under Culture if no demography section is present. (Although I could see much room for debate on this)#Also, forgot Diplomacy/Foreign Relations. Would probably give that its own category after Military and before Economy, although it could also be after Government and before Military (up to you all).Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 08:38, January 3, 2015 (UTC)Seems like a good idea. The only thing is some people feel very adamently toward NationInfo or NationBox, and we found that demanding one over the other angers members of the other group. As such Guns said previously that both would be allowed, to appease both groups. Other than looks good, it's pretty much common sense/practice after all. For people I've used Template:Infobox royalty in the past, but of course that is only for monarchs. Mscoree (talk) 12:20, January 3, 2015 (UTC)I totally understand the NationBox/NationInfo debate. I was adamantly against NationBox for a really long time, but have since grown to use it almost all of the time (including in my own TL). Give it a try, those of you who are being stubborn holdouts like I was :P . Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 22:07, January 3, 2015 (UTC)I disagree with the NationBox idea. I've seen it, I prefer NationInfo, and it's silly to make that distinction. Military Conflict, tho, I have also tried, and it's superior to InfoboxWar, so Kudos there. 22:33, January 5, 2015 (UTC)==I'm Back== And for war pages...I suggest we stick with
Sorry about the 2 week absence. Emergency, didn't have the ability to really use the Interwebs. Anyhoo, I'll be looking around and editing thangs.22:37, January 5, 2015 (UTC)=Proposals=
I started working on this page a few days ago and wrote a bunch of stuff in it. I think it's plausible and I avoided mentioning other nations a lot so other people can write their own pages. You can note that I have some stuff in italics. That can be amended or removed if need be. (I'm not sure if this is how it works but I'm taking a chance here.)—Bfoxius (talk)Yeah, I'm stopping for now to work back on the inside and develop the beginning more. 03:51, December 20, 2014 (UTC)So how does a proposal become canon? Voting? Yes or no from a single person? 19:11, December 22, 2014 (UTC)I concur with Bfox's previous statement about waiting for future history. We hardly have the post-PoD stuff worked out, and now you have all of France being under British dominion? I think that needs a more serious discussion to say the least. And it hardly merits canon yet, imo, due to lacking the econ/dip/geo stuff Bfox alluded to. Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 23:00, January 1, 2015 (UTC)===Portugal=== I'd like to have this graduated soon so we'd have canon for other pages to work off of. I'm going to avoid going too far into the future due to the TL not being developed very much yet, so I'd like to have this graduated sooner, rather than later.—Bfoxius (talk)===Holy Roman Empire=== No where near finished or ready for graduate, but I figured I'd list it here. Mscoree (talk) 14:21, December 20, 2014 (UTC)===Mongol Invasion of Europe=== Again not finished, but I figured I'd list this here. Should probably be our first graduated page. Mscoree (talk) 19:56, December 24, 2014 (UTC)I agree. —Bfoxius (talk)The page is a bit more done now. Any objections to canonizing what is there so far? Mscoree (talk) 04:07, December 31, 2014 (UTC)I looked over it and think it looks good. Just remember to continue work on it after it gets canonized as it's not complete ATM. —Bfoxius (talk)No objection here. Great start, so far. Reximus | Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!<font color=red">Talk to Me!</font> 08:03, January 3, 2015 (UTC)===Denmark=== Not finished yet, but I attempted to write as good of a history I could on Denmark in this TL so far.==Article Reviews==00:42, December 20, 2014 (UTC)Personally, I think you should concentrate on developing a small bit of history, plus the usual economic/diplomatic/geographic stuff that usually accompanies it on the page instead of developing a large history first, simply because I think in this TL, we should each work on a small bit of canon and build off of each other's canon over time to maximize plausibility and minimize wanks (no matter how hard you try to prevent them, they always seem to crop up with everyone's work, however subtle). That being said, I like the italic system you have going, and those ideas are merely MY ideas for this TL, so I'll refrain from commenting further until the page gets developed further.
Good Timeline- Yet, Poor Rules and Exceution
I think here Knightfall is a good example of an awesome idea, and a good team of users willing to collaborate but poor exceution along with that you. You see timelines can go only go on as well as the indiviual users mantain interest in the articles and the wiki as a whole. Of course people will always leave in time, which is why collaborative timelines need to mantain an open atmosphere to have new fresh contributers
The rules that Knightfall Users can only nominate their friends to be a part is a paradox, because this was done precisely I imagine to make sure all members were on the same page, and dedicated. However in effect by restricting this timline deveoplment was snuffed out by the leaders own conservatism. Because even the leaders will over time move on without choosing new interested people.
This isn't a direct attack on the timeline itself or the users but rather a note of reference for future collobrative projects. Timelines fufill their best potential when there is control, but openess as well. There must be some control or else we will have users contradicting themselves, but there must be openess otherwise enery will fade and the diversity of ideas which could be used to bring new life will not kick start the project back into action.
Having an adopted an old collobrative timeline myself, I am taking notes here.
Have a good day,
Greetings I am Stepintime!
After sending a message to the timeline's original creator Bfoxius I have moved my adoption request to the Knightfall talk page, I believe that consulting the original creator was adequate for the first step of the adotopion process.
Knightfall has great potential and could be made better, while I will not give undivided attention to Knightfall after adoption I will do the following:
- End the existing appointee system- currently users could only contribute if members of an exclusive group invitied them, however as the team moved on they did not appoint new people to continue development. Therefore I think the appointee system is not a good idea. Timelines are best in creative quality when all users are allowed to contribute.
- Remove OTL history from articles, I think that while there is an abudance of good reading material I have noticed that much of the writing has been about OTL events that occured before the POD this will be changed
- While all content in the war article concerning actual alt history will be preserved the Mongol Invasion of Europe war page may be reformed and broken up into two or more pages. As it stanads, the current page is too long to read comfortably. *I say that while I am also guility of writing long articles.
- Going off based on what has already been written by main focus regarding this timeline will be getting into the details of what life was like in Mongol Europe after the war- in relative peace. As well as taking a look at what a greater Mongol presence in Europe means for the Mongol world and everyonelse in the 13/14/15th centuries.
Please post any questions or objections you have to my adoption, I appreciate your input and I will consider what anyone has to say.
Thank you for reading and considering my adoption of this great project,
Have a good day.
In accordance with the three day period I willl now adopt your timeline. Thank you for your acceptance and support.
Map Proposal and Prototype
I have started making maps to show the boundries of the alternate Khantes, notice these maps are not very good but they are only meant to create an idea of what the boundries would look like
I encourage you to look at this new Mongol inspired music.