Talk: New Jersey (1983: Doomsday)

Outside of the Atlantic City area, New Jersey is a wasteland - and Atlantic City is part of Delmarva.

Trenton was hit by a strike as well, and Princeton would have been eliminated in the process. The same goes for new Brunswick with the New York strikes.

Lordganon 05:35, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, whoever wrote this has not read any of the articles concerning NJ. Now to get off topic: one good thing about a nuclear war that killed billions of peope, no "Jersey Shore". Mitro 14:13, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

I erased the "Jew Jersey" reference that had been on the map. On a lighter note, I'm certain that Mitro isn't mourning the butterflying out of existence of Snooki and "The Situation". BrianD 03:54, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Former state

As is this article violates canon, but it can be transformed into a former US state article like Illinois. Mitro 14:22, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm on top of it, Mitro. I have NJ up on Google Earth evaluating what could have survived in south Jersey. And what's with dissing the Jersey Shore! Some of my wife's fondest memories are of those dirty beaches! SouthWriter 16:17, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

I mean the tv show, South, not the geographic location. Mitro 19:14, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

My bad, as they say. I haven't watched TV in over two years. :-) SouthWriter 20:27, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Michael Matthews

Wanting to be more personal with the article, I looked up the mayor -- that being a corrupt politician sent to prison after a recall. His opponent had spent a fortune on the recount effort! With the FBI and NJ state police having Matthews under investigation, a good law enforcement contingent was in town on Doomsday. What would have come of this investigation? Would organized crime have taken over Atlantic City in the chaos?

I'm thinking that his opponent James Usry would have moved faster to have Matthews endicted. He would win the recall election in March of 1984 in OTL. An African-American Republican, he would make an interesting character to follow into TTL. Perhaps a battle for the city would propel Usry into Delmarva politics.

Just some thoughts. SouthWriter 18:34, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Atlantic City Independence?

So, basically, they're going to leave a fair off nation to become a state of a nation thousands of miles away? I know you probably mean later on, but I got scoffed at for writing something similar to that once a nation closer to the new US. Arstar 03:25, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

In the words of a favorite prof of mine, those in favor of such an idea as written here seem to be "nutters." I slight change of wording would be in order, but I can definitely see a few people petitioning for such a thing.

Mind, the best thing would be to make it very clear that they are nuts.

Lordganon 14:11, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, what I had in mind was indendence for the state of New Jersey, not Atlantic City. As I see it, the government in Atlantic City could have some "traditionalists" who want to return the state to its former place in history. Having lost most of the state's population to doomsday, their is little hope for this to happen, but it is not a "nutty" idea to want things to be "back to normal." Similar ideas would abound throughout the US even as the older generation(s) that knew the greatness of the US began to die off. Such a movement, for example, would be active in the Republics of Piemont and Blue Ridge.

Arstar, the "nations" of the east coast, with the exception of Virginia and Kentucy, are little more than disconnected states with a common history. They have come together around survivor cities and an occasional regional coalition and forged a future, but the have not ceased to be Americans. "Later on" is not necessary in this alternate history. The movement to return to a re-united America has been going on ever since doomsday. Now that communications have been restored, and leaders in the traditionalist movement know of a surviving government out west, they would naturally see some hope.

LG, I will change the wording to state that the above -- that the traditionalists want a connection for the state of "New Jersey" with the US -- but I will not insinuate that they are nuts. The feeling of pride in being among the original 13 colonies would be enough to keep that hope alive. 98.84.2.144 18:34, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

As long as the cast of Jersey Shore isn't part of this New Jersey Future State, well, anything is better than that :-) Arstar 07:59, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Given that the article on Delmarva says that that nation includes the NJ counties of Cape May, Cumberland, and Salem, it's not out of the question that Delmarva could establish a protectorate (or something similar) in Atlantic County, which is just north of Cape May. There could be some fallout issues in northwestern Atlantic county (from Philadelphia or Fort Dix / McGuire AFB), but the rest of the county, including Atlantic City could be livable. Not in the best of shape, but livable. SunEagle 22:58, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that's more or less what has been happening for a long time, as requested by the people of Atlantic City. Lordganon 23:05, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I just today came across this article and the above discussion. As such, I felt the need to clarify where I have been planning to take my article on Delmarva for a long time as it applies to Atlantic City. The state of NJ was devastated as a result leaving very few areas survivable. Primarily this being extreme southern NJ, some areas of the coastline, and the northwestern part. AC suffered greatly from the resultant chaos, fallout, and refugees. It was basically cut off from contact and on its own. The city government tried to survive but collapsed with criminal elements taking over led by elements of the mob who turned the city into their personal fiefdom. Those who could escaped, but those who stayed were forced to cooperate with the crime bosses and in essence become essentially their serfs in order to survive. Over time, as things improved somewhat, the crime lords began carrying out sporadic pillaging raids against other areas, mostly by sea. The logical choice for most attacks being south NJ and Delmarva. These areas were able to ignore them until a particularly ugly event, which finally pushed them to war. Delmarva and southern NJ, who had already developed a close relationship, launched a ground and sea attack with the intention of destroying the criminal empire once and for all. This would become known as the Atlantic City War, the bloodiest war as of this date to have involved Delmarva. The end result of the war would be as follows: the criminal empire destroyed; leaders and high officials captured and tried and executed for crimes against humanity; south NJ officially joins Delmarva; and AC comes under Delmarvan control. I have working on this project slowly over time in order to make it logical, laying out a timeline as how the war comes about. My intention is create a seperate article on the war and the city providing greater detail and provide a brief account regarding it in the Delmarva history. I wanted to lay out my military first for Delmarva, which I did a few months ago before I moved forward. If you look, I do mention the bloody AC war briefly in my military history. Although I may change one of two things, what I have laid out above is where I am going. I also have a map I created showing the areas I believed would have been devastated on DD which I will upload later today. As a final thought, my intention is to have the war in the early 1990s. If you have any questions, please let me know. --Fxgentleman 20:12, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Define the criminals. Would you look to The Sopranos for your inspiration? BrianD 03:57, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

I guess my best answer might be yes and no. In 1983, it had only been eight years since the first casino opened in the city. What I remember from that time from news reports, was that Atlantic City had a high crime rate outside the casino-hotel areas. The general advice for many tourists was to not wander outside this zone. Along with that, the Mafia had a heavy presence in the city like they did in Las Vegas. I had been dong research into what the Mob was like in the city and who could be referred to as the big boss, someone like John Gotti, so I could bace it on reality rather than some fictional boss or mob family. I have not had a great deal of success since alot of the mob news at the time deals with the ongoing mob war in Phili. My general thoughts have been that the city is cut off by the loss of communications and the wholesale destruction of much of the state. The thing I considered, is aside from the strikes and the fallout, there will be a great deal of toxic pollution from chemical and petroleum plants and facilities as well as toxic waste dumps, of which there were many in the state. This would reduce areas of sanctuary. Many would head to AC to seek shelter and or escape by sea. Law and order would rapidly break down, with looting and chaos. Into this void would step the main mob family who would bring others into the fold and ruthlessly suppress or incorporate other criminal elements into their fold. Basically, establishing a crime fiefdom. They would focus on some rebuilding, forcing those staying into a type of servitude, not unlike serfs. They slowly begin attacking other areas, especially those coastal, kind of like pirates or Vikings of old. Everyone is more focused on surviving and rebuilding so they kind of go under the radar for awhile. At some point they become bolder and attacks get worse, such as taking slaves. Finally, south NJ and Delmarva band together to finish them off in a war. This helps to usher south NJ into the UCD fold as new states. I was trying to take all this slow by doing my research to back up what I was going to write. If anyone has any info about the AC mob at the time it could really help me. Does this help Brian?--Fxgentleman 13:18, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

It does. Thanks!BrianD 18:51, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Revisions to Article

Per what was earlier discussed on the main talk page, these changes are part of my the process to try and bring the article into alignment with what I am writing about Delmarva. The part added, provides a more detailed account of Doomsday in New Jersey. I will be making more revisions soon. If anyone has questions, please let me know. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 05:49, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

Nice to see some improvement to this thing. Only thin I got is that the map of strikes should have more green in the northwest of New Jersey, since most of those areas are listed on the NYC article as well. Lordganon 07:01, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

When I prepared the article, I studied the FEMA maps for the region and made a best guess as to what would be destroyed. The only secondary site I spared was McKee City and I left third strike targets alone. Some in fact were near primary/secondary areas and likely destroyed/damaged. I did note the FEMA visual map lists strikes in Hunterdon County along the PA border, but I could not find any correolation as to what could have been targeted. The areas adjacent to NYC and Philadelphia would have suffered heavily not only because of their own strikes, but given their proximity to these major urban areas they would have received overlapping bands of destruction from these zones as well as the possibility of a warhead going slightly off target. I did not see this happening given the proximity of Allentown and Bethlehem and the scenarios I ran. Based on my research and analysis I believe the descriptions in the NYC article as they apply to certain NJ counties to be overinflated, especially Hunterdon and Ocean.

As to fallout, the areas in green, according to the weather reports I read in the NY Times for the days in question, the winds were blowing southwest 10-15 miles the evening of September 25, 1983 and continued in the same direction roughly the next two days at about 5-10 miles. So I made the best appoximatation I could in regards to areas of fallout. Outside the immediate strike areas, I believe the greatest killer would be fallout/toxic gas clouds. I hope this helps to explain my rationale here. --Fxgentleman 12:30, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to say that the map is very impressive. Fx, you should really do more with maps, you obviously have some talent. Mitro 16:32, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I have a question. I am somewhat embarrassed to say that I was unaware the NJ article had been graduated. For reasons unknown to me it never showed up on my list of articles I thought I was following regarding changes. As I mentioned in my posts on this discussion page and elsewhere I was working on making revisions to the article to bring it into line with what I have been working on related to Delmarva. That included creation of an article on Atlantic City and how it plays into a war with Delmarva. This was part of the reason why I started revising the NJ article back in March. I had not changed the section on Atlantic City yet to match what I was doing since I wanted to wait until I posted my AC article. I know I never officially asked to take over the article, but I would like to do so. I would also like to know if I will still be able to make my intended changes since it has been graduated? Would it be possible to move it back into the proposed status for now? I am still working on my articles and changes and would really like the chance to publish my efforts soon given the time and work I have invested. If someone could please let me know I would be appreciative, thanks.--Fxgentleman 00:56, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

One additional note, I have part of an article I can publish now as a prosal showing some of the work I have done thus far on Atlantic City. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 01:01, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Fx, the article is yours, and has been for months, lol - you can edit as you will, especially since it's your area in question.

But, there's really no need to mark it as a proposal.

Lordganon 01:46, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much. You don't know how deeply relieved I am to hear that. I was working on this heavily back in the spring and got into doing a great deal of research into the crime families of NJ and AC to come up with something workable and realistic. Unfortunately, the last six months have been very hectic for me between demands of work and personal issues so it slipped off the radar into the to do list. However, I think I will put this among my top 5 things to do here over the coming weeks. I have essentially been working on a scenario where organized crime elements take over the city from the crumbling city government and turn it into a rogue mini-state that menances its neighbors, including Delmarva, until they attack and occupy it @ early 90s in what I call the AC War. So, I am simultaneously creating articles on AC as well as the war while at the same time adding onto Delmarva, and revising the NJ article. So the whole process has been slow going for me. Thanks again for the information. --Fxgentleman 02:01, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Look forward to seeing it, lol. Lordganon 02:06, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Looking For Article on NJ Survivor Nation

I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me. I remember reading a recent article about a survivor state in northwestern NJ but cannot find it or remember the name. I wanted to include it what I am writing for the state, but have had no luck finding it. Was it made obsolete and if not, can anyone guide me to it. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 23:26, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

There's been a couple attempts, but they have been rendered obsolete. Simply put, based too close to NYC and neither was willing to actually move to the forests, as noted elsewhere, in the northwest that survivors are listed somewhere as being in. Lordganon 23:40, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Great Research!

Just a note to say this is great research! The NYT weather report was an especially good catch. I can't remember coming across anything online that could verify the weather that day. The tropical storm that came through the area would have helped wash some of the fallout and stuff inland a couple of days later.

I am wondering, though, about the "two waves" of missiles you mention. If the offshore submarines attacked first, there would be virtually NO time to evacuate New York or Washington, DC. Canon has these primary sites having a lead time of at least an hour as missiles came over the polar regions. Without at least a half-hour warning, neither Bush nor Reagan could have escaped. --SouthWriter 16:12, April 4, 2011 (UTC)

Atlantic City Air National Guard Base

I just remembered while reading the New Jersey article that there doesn't appear to be anything on this military base, and i know it existed in 1983 because it was constructed in 1942 as a Naval Air Station and in use by the New Jersey Air National Guard since 1958 so wouldn't that mean it would be a target on Doomsday?

I live in Southern New Jersey so i've actually seen the base from a distance plenty of times because it's on the same land as the Atlantic City International Airport and, although i think it would be a target because it's a military base i don't think it would be necessarily a huge one like Fort Dix or McGuire Air Force Base for example, maybe it would be Secondary or less but i'd like to hear what you think. Dscheibal 15:05, January 20, 2012

Hi, Dscheibal, I added your signature for you. You can do that by typing four tildes (or three if you don't want the date). You suppose right about most bases, but some -- or maybe most -- bases used by the national guard would be minor targets at best. However, there were a lot of warheads, so Soviet planners may have chosen just about anywhere to target! However, since Atlantic City survived, we can assume that the National Guard there survived as well. SouthWriter 00:01, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

The base does not appear at all large enough to warrant a target. It's a really minor one. Lordganon 01:43, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Based on my research I found the base was considered a third level target on the attack list so I decided to leave it alone given there were more significant targets in the state. In the article I am working on for Atlantic City and the updates for NJ, I made the decision to knock it and the airport out, since they are side by side, by having the EMP cause several plane crashes at the facilities which touch off fires. I have not made any final decision yet as to whether my rogue state in AC will try to reactivate the base or just abandon it. I hope this helps. --Fxgentleman 01:55, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Adoption request

If no one else objects, I'd like to adopt this page. I'd love to further develop it, maybe add details about NJ's dynamics within Delmarva (which I'm now the caretaker of), as well as more details about local culture and rebuilding efforts. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:20, May 6, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Since no one seems to object, I'm going to go ahead and adopt the page. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 23:39, May 14, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton