Talk:Niagara Falls (1983: Doomsday)

Unless Buffalo wan't hit this place would most likely be inundated with radiation and refugees. --GOPZACK 05:23, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

It depends where the fallout ended up and what kind of missile was used. Arstarpool 05:32, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Man even if the radiation disappeared magically there would still be refugees! --GOPZACK 05:42, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Chill out, dude. You can see the extent of the "radiation" in the picture below.

Using the Java Nuclear Simulator, a fairly accurate tool, I "nuked" Buffalo with a 1.4 MT Bomb in the epicenter of the city. Clearly that would wipe out most to all life in the immediate vicinity of Buffalo, leaving little refugees to go to Niagara Falls, and with Google Earth confirming that there are many farms on the Canadian side, it looks like the area will do fairly well, I suppose. Even if there are refugees, both towns are resort towns, and will have accomodations for at least triple the normal population. Arstarpool 05:53, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Fallout would have gone North-Northeast, not west. But same principle still applies.

And yeah, there would be room - September isn't tourist season at all.

Lordganon 06:20, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Let me be clear I'm not saying your article can't work, I just want to make sure all things are considered. In response to what you have posted, there would be refugees from the North Tonowanda area and the greater Buffalo metropolitan area along with others that may flee simply out of fear of the unknown. Niagara Falls, which I have visited many times is usually booked up year round so the hotels wouldn't exactly have room for the poor folks fleeing. The fall colors there are spectacular so I would be the area would be booming (no pun intended) at the time of Doomsday. Also the folks in the path of the fallout will be fleeing somewhere either toward London or North to Niagara Falls or Niagara on the Lake. I know the area pretty well so in the process of making this article I offer you my full services & I'll try answer an questions you may have. :) --GOPZACK 06:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Zack, by all means, help me out on this. However don't fill it out completely, because it is part of a "secret" project me and JackOfSpades are putting together for North America. Here are my questions:

1. Are the twin cities divided in any way, like do you need a passport to go from one side to the other?

2. Do you see any fishing boats, commercial boats passing thru?

3. You may not know this, but do they rely on hydro-power?

4. Any specific economic output in the region besides tourism, say manufacturing?

Arstarpool 07:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Niagara Falls is actually the location of a major Hydro dam that provides a lot of the power for southern Ontario. I assumed its destruction from EMP in my London article, though there would likely be replacement parts available. It used to be a site of industry but industries began moving out of the cities in the 70s. I would assume since you're crossing international borders that you would require passports. Well, OTL you would now, back then you would just need ID if you were a canadian or US citizen.Oerwinde 10:19, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

So I'm assuming some industry was left if they only started moving out in the 70s, and if there was any industry left, I'm sure several factories had both the manpower and equipment to repair the Hydro-dam. This could really be a huge benefit for Niagara Falls, selling their excess hydro-power to other survivor nations and such. Arstarpool 13:46, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

To my knowledge there are no boats in the river other then tourist related things like the "Maid of the Mist". I would also think that a lot of the debris would be floating down the river and would go other the falls. The Falls could chew it up pretty good but some may still cause problems. --GOPZACK 16:03, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think this is one of the best-researched articles that I've seen in quite a while. I also think that they could convert a couple of boats to the new task of salvaging any usable materials in the debris that goes over the falls, and to simply remove the unusable material out of the water before it polutes the water.

Yankovic270 16:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

From what I can find, the industry of the area was mostly metal fabrication, chemical, food processing, and auto parts.Oerwinde 19:23, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hydroelectric dams in the area:

Robert Moses

Sir Adam Beck

Total output of like 4100MW if both stations are repaired, and they're both hooked into the power grids already, though EMP has likely fried a lot of transformers.Oerwinde 19:32, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

If the Hydroelectric plants shut down wouldn't the level of the falls increase as the water wouldn't be going thru the plants, but over the falls? and if thats the case then there would be massive flooding downstream of the falls? Wikipedia says as much as 75% of the water from the river goes thru the plants and not over the falls--Smoggy80 19:16, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Smoggy has a point. I actually remember watching a special on PBS discussing the very same thing. Something needs to be said about the extensive damage caused by floods. Mitro 20:55, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Tourism?

I don't think a post-apocalyptic survivor state is a tourist attraction. Nowhere in North America is this possible at the moment. Mitro 02:49, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Huh just as I went to write the same thing, to exhaust the old cliche great minds think a like. GOPZACK 02:52, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

A major Niagara Fall’s area attraction that is not listed in the tourism section is Maple Leaf Village amusement park. The ride section of the park would probably be closed for several years, but I believe after electricity was restored the rides would be turned on at least once a year for a carnival. Also, Maple Leaf Village was home to a multi-screen movie theatre, countless souvenir and apparel stores, Lillie Langtry's tavern and club, the Elvis Presley Museum, A Ripley's Believe it Or Not Museum and A 50's nightclub called Shaboom'sGoldwind1 18:06, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

In the "Canadian Niagara Falls" section it details the various shops and museums located on Victroria Avenue of which Maple Leaf Village is a part of. If you would like to add any more info regarding the attractions feel free to do so. Arstar 21:42, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, given the large amount of work needed to maintain an amusement park, it's likely to be inoperable. And the parts needed to fix it would be impossible to get, too. Lordganon 22:05, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ethnic Groups

"American" and "Canadian" are NOT ethnic groups.--Smallpox 03:51, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Vaudreuil-Soulanges Strip

As much as I like the idea Arstar, it really doesn't make too much sense. That's raider controlled territory until a few months ago, and near what would amount to a "front-line" with Kingston forces anyway.

Besides, how would they get there anyway?

Lordganon 06:32, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

International Relations

The St Lawrence wasn't navigable until recently. If the SL Raiders was keeping Canada out, Niagara has no hope of getting through. With the war ending in April, I'd say it would be May or June before it was cleared out enough to allow merchant shipping, and those merchants would likely need to be armed to dissuade raiding. Canada would likely be their largest trading partner outside the great lakes area.Oerwinde 05:02, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

Arstar, saying that they are any sort of capital for the Great Lakes region is a major exaggeration. Lordganon 08:01, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

LG the capital of the United Communities is in Niagara, mind you. And they are the only member-state with (indirect) access to the Atlantic so they would be the hub of commerce and international relations. Arstar 21:50, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

And that does not make it a capital of the region. It's an exaggeration.

What on earth are you talking about? These guys have no access to the ocean, at all. The St. Lawrence may be safe on some level from the raiders, but it by no means is passable. None of the locks or anything that allow such passage would be intact, or manned. The best their ships could manage would be near the islands in northeastern Lake Ontario, and the radiated ruins of Detroit near northwestern Lake Erie.

The only thing in that direction at all is that they do control the intact locks between Lakes Erie and Ontario.

Lordganon 22:12, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

You misinterpereted what I said entirely, LG. They're obviously not the official capital since the Great Lakes contains half a dozen city-states and countries. But they are the capital of the UC which is pretty much the only strong authority over the entire region, making them pretty damn close. Thanks to the dams they have more power than they can do anything with, so they have more industrial capacity not to mention a better living standard. Being located on two peninsulas gives them relative strategic safety from raiders. Not to mention they have agricultural, industrial, and commercial zones within an arms reach of each other, multiple army bases and the largest metropolitian area in all of the Great Lakes.

And notice I said indirect access to the Ocean even though after the Saguenay War they would indeed have access through the St. Lawrence. Arstar 23:08, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

No, I did not. As I said, it is an exaggeration. Something which you just admitted, lol. Nor is that group any "strong authority," either. Nor is it "all of the Great Lakes."

No, they have no access, at all. Indirect, or otherwise. What you're either unaware of, or ignoring, is that without canals and locks, there is no way to get from the Great Lakes to the St. Lawrence. The entire region between Montreal and the islands east of Kingston is full or rapids, rocks, and falls. Without the man-made passages around them, you cannot go between the Ocean and the Lakes by ship. And those passages are no longer operable, by far.

Lordganon 23:21, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't admitting anything. What is the UC's juristiction to you then? Every single Great Lakes nation along with many others inland is a member of the UC.

Like I noted above, Niagara has an accumalation of advantages that give them a drasticadvantage over the other Great Lakes city-states. Byzantium in its later days may not have been the hub capital of the Mediterranean, but it was still its hub was it not? That's what Niagara is, the hub of the Great Lakes. Arstar 22:14, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Just because everyone is a member doesn't mean the UC has any real power I think is what he's saying. Which it doesn't. Its more of a forum for disputes and mediator between the city states. Oerwinde 22:26, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Constantinople was not even close to such a position in its later days. Anytime after 1200, that is not in the least the truth. Nor would it have been very true anytime after around 900 AD.

More or less what Oer says. Saying it is an unofficial capital for the region is an exaggeration - especially since its power is pretty well entirely restricted to Ontario and Erie.

Nor does it hold any advantages that the other states really do not have.

Lordganon 07:58, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Radiation

Ok, something I just now thought of. With Buffalo upriver being nuked, wouldn't tons of irradiated debris and rubble and water be flowing right smack through the middle of the city and collecting at the dams? This would be a huge health hazard and likely take years to clean up and would seriously hinder repair efforts on the dams.Oerwinde 06:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Probably not, in my opinion. With all of the twists, turns, and islands between the two, especially Grand and Navy Islands, any radiation and debris likely to get washed up or more likely settle before the falls. Buffalo's also only on one side of the river, so anything on the river itself would probably be a glancing blow. Lordganon 08:04, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Oer, I'll fully look into it. I've made some changes per your comments although I don't think as much debris that your think of would "collect" at the dams since the dams were already overflowing following the EMP, causing much of the potential debris to go along with the water. LG made a good point though. The islands would probably block some of the more major debris, and the broken dams would probably let the rest flow right over. And since the Falls are constantly moving, the "irridated" water would be long gone by now. Arstar 05:35, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Erie Canal

I've been doing research on ways for Niagara and the Great Lakes in general to reach sea access to the Atlantic and discovered Erie Canal, which runs right through Lockport which is a city-state practically under Niagaran control. It was used in the past as a navigable water route from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic but I'm not sure if its still in good condition or not. Do you think it could be repaired and used? Arstar 20:54, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

For tiny stretches, maybe. But, overall? In New York State above Albany, alone, including the ones on Albany and Buffalo, there's about six strikes on the canal. No way it's at all usable. Lordganon 00:33, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Obviously it can't be used to go directly to the Ocean but it could be used for travel between Niagara and Oswega, right? Arstar 04:23, March 13, 2012 (UTC)