Police State

I highly doubt that popular mayor Louis Tullio would have taken on the role of dictator as to demand the shooting on sight of petty theft and vandalism. Furthermore, I don't think that state police (who would have been under authority of now-dead administrators in Harrisburg any way) would obey such harsh orders. An authority structure based on the major of a single city over several counties is questionable; though the recently elected, an so-far untested, county executive Judith Lynch probably would have been less likely than long-time major Tullio to mount such an effort.

In my opinion, order could surely have been maintained with less violent actions. If the authorities had been so hard-nosed, I doubt if they would have been able to remain "in power" for long any way. A "state"-wide populace of a half-million, or more, could not be corralled into such subservient mass of humanity - even a willing army of gun-toting, and trigger-happy, police. --SouthWriter 16:02, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


Just to clarify where are the resources coming from for these 1500 cars produced every year? --GOPZACK 17:00, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Here is your answer:

Steel mines are in somewhat of an abundance in Pennsylvania, so that should clarify some of it.

Glass for windshields and spotlights is imported from Toledo.

Lubricants, oils, and gasoline are found in hundreds of gas pools across Pennsylvania. Arstarpool 17:06, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

First, "steel mines" do not exist. Steel mills do, but what we need are "iron ore mines" which are not that abundant in the area. On the far shores on Lake Superior, on the other hand, you can find a lot of iron ore. We can assume trade with Superior would facilitate the steel industry in Pennsylvania. Also, you have to consider coal mines to provide the best source of carbon for most steels. Other minerals, especially metals, need to be available for many of the grades of steel produced in the mills.
Also, "gas pools" do not exist!! I took the liberty of changing that to "oil fields" in the article. "Natural gas" is also very abundant, but that is not the same thing as "gas" in the sense used here. Gasoline and diesel have to be refined from crude oil, of which the nation has to be the best source east of the Mississippi. There are also refineries in the NW corner of the state, so fuel oils should not be a problem. SouthWriter 17:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Abundant or not, they exist in the NW corner of the state. You're idea with Superior is good, but remember they are in a full-blown war right now and most metals are prolly going to war efforts. I'm just going to shrink the size down to "1,500 cars have been produced from the factory". Arstarpool 18:16, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

My first reading I missed what you were referring to. You are saying that there is iron ore for the mining in amongst the oil and natural gas. This is good, I couldn't find reference to them in my short search, but it still will be necessary to go to other sources for materials needed to keep the steel mills going. In house materials would probably last only for a short while.
My point was is are no such thing as a "gas pool." I even looked it up -- nada. It is not a term that is used for natural gas even. "Gas" is gasoline, and it does not exist in "pools," because it would evaporate much too fast and endanger all life within the fumes due to both affixiation and cumbustion danger. What do exist are "oil fields," or better, "oil deposits." Most of these have been found already and are actively being drilled. Your section of Pennsylvania was the birthplace of the oil industry and still has producing wells. Sorry, I misread your reference to the iron ore deposits.
Actually though, I don't think "full-blown war" is accurate for the state of affairs between Superior and Canada. The Republic is backing the breakaway nation, but not at the expense of international relations. They would probably not even have the facilities to build vehicles of their own. Their best bet is to provide the raw materials to those nations that are both friendly to them and willing to build vehicles to replace the ones they wear out. SouthWriter 02:01, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ecology vs. Survival

I find it a little odd that the government would "ban" powered fishing boats from its harbors - even at a late date of 2006 - when fishing is a major source of food and income for so much of the population of the nation. At the same time, the "discovery" of gravel in the lake provides a source for foundation material for road repair. I would think that road repair would mostly be by the application of petroleum-based blacktop to the roads as they weathered. The dredging of the lake (rather than the wilderness strethching into the interior) for gravel makes NO ecological sense.

In fact, ecology probably would be the last thing to be considered in a world that was fighting to survive. The "natural wildlife" would be considered "fair game" in the ongoing struggle up until recent times, at least. The harvesting of the Great Lakes would be far more important than their use for transportation, though transport of goods to and from Superior and Toledo would definitely be via the lakes. SouthWriter 17:06, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How 'bout now? Basically I "restricted" rather than banned in order to keep local fishing stocks alive and healthy. Arstarpool 18:23, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oil Industry Profits

Your comment about the "very, very large profits" that Pennzoil and Quaker State would make is off base. Market forces in the post-apocolyptic age would be vastly different. This is especially true for the case of a self-sufficient nation-state using most of its oil for its own survival. The abundance of the commodity, and the efficiency of its refineries, would lower the price of most of the oil to such an extent that the "Big Oil" bosses would probably be working for the state. As the capacity to actually ship the oil and the refined fuels to other markets increased, then the profits would increase, but only as far as the market would allow.

Most independent nations would have learned to utilize what resources they had, and by the time trade agreements were made with other nations, the demand would have lowered, keeping pricing to a reasonable point. By 2000, I suppose, profits of surviving or new oil companies would begin to increase, but not nearly to the point they are in OTL (which, by the way, are not that high compared to many less essential commodities). SouthWriter 17:59, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You will have to delete Pennzoil from the text. The company had been moved to Houston, Texas, in the 1970's. From what I can tell, though, Quaker State was still operating as such in the state from which it took its name. SouthWriter 14:33, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oil Refineries

Good news! With all that oil, you also have two refineries. You need to play up the following locations -

Together these two refineries produce 80,000 barrels per day. That is 17,600 m3/d (17,600,000 liters!). That is

4,643,799 ½ gallons, or enough fuel oil to fill 23,219 200-gallon fuel tanks PER DAY! I think the million or so people of the nation are safe in their oil furnaced homes in the winter (assuming the pumps are running). Vehicles powered by diesel and gasoline would have enough -- 232,190 20-gallon tanks PER DAY. That's one car for each family of four. The trucks and trains, of course, use a lot more fuel, as would the power plants and factories. But I think there is plenty to go around -- as long as the oil wells don't run dry.

With trade agreements, you could have quite some leverage with the other nation-states of the region. SouthWriter 16:17, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, South! Yet another good discovery by you :-)
Actually I was thinking the trains could run on steam or coal, so as not to use up all the precious gas there, and most factories could run on some other natural gas, but whatever is realistic I will try to do. Arstarpool 16:28, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Again, you have to have a source for the coal. You would have to trade with the Virginia Republic or some other place for the coal to run steam engines. Besides, it is the diesel trains that are already running. Steam engines are a thing of the past and conversion is not an easy thing to do. Factories might very well be running on natural gas -- worth looking into. SouthWriter 16:58, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

London had to make due with what they had and started making Biodiesel for use in generators and their own diesel engines. By the time the two nations meet, their processing will have advanced and they could start selling biodiesel for use in the diesel locomotives.Oerwinde 08:48, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Other cities

What happened to the towns of Erie County. Union City, though a lot smaller than Meadville, was closer and could have absorbed many of the refugees before they got to the larger town. As people sought refuge, they would first go to nearby towns. They would only go further when those towns proved hazzardous. The radiation from Erie would mostly have gone to the north, according to the prevailing winds of the area. The area of West Pennsylvania would have probably had to contend more with the radiation and refugees from the Pittsburgh area. This also goes for Oil City and Warren, each even further away than Meadville.

I recommend Google Earth (or Mapquest if you must) to estimate the particular influx of refugees into the area. Writing out Erie is going to be a pain, and a port city is a must, but this project is definitely doable. Don't worry about rushing it to canonization, though. Just enjoy it. It's a good addition to the Great Lakes community. SouthWriter 17:09, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I beg of you, please help me with this. I can only log on for like 30 minutes a day and even then I am rushed. Arstarpool 21:40, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, Alex. I think I'll spread the folks abandoning Erie along the coast first, and then down into the county. The smaller towns will be overwhelmed, of course. So the bigger towns you mentioned will be the seat of the new government. I'm working on the Caribbean this evening, though, and it may be a few days before I can get much done on West Pennsylvania. SouthWriter 01:00, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is "Lake Erie City" a new city built from the ruins of the abandoned city of Erie? Or perhaps Lake City renamed after receiving the bulk of the refugees? SouthWriter 01:45, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

A new city on the "little Penninsula" on Lake Erie that incorporates the extreme north of former city of Erie. Arstarpool 02:23, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

It might work as a refugee camp, but why a new city. If the city of Erie had to be abandoned due to a hit in its southside region, I'd think that utilizing existing cities would be a lot more efficient. I'd say build up Lake City instead. It's a safe distance (and down wind) and on the coast rather than inland as the new capital at Warren is. I can see the smaller city accommodating the refugees while co-oprating with the government that had escaped to Warren (in good time) to exploit the resources available by way of Lake Erie. SouthWriter 02:51, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
Arstar that plan just might work! Here's a map I put together (Hopefully it posts, this wretched internet on the airplane is awful) I centered a 650kt strike over the Erie International Airport (the most likely target in my mind). Anyway the one thing that may complicate things is that pesky fallout. Hope this helps! --GOPZACK 02:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
Screen shot 2010-08-21 at 10.49.05 PM
Oh there is this handy box at the bottom with some more info
Good software. Similar to that which I usually use. If the airport was the target, then the eastern side of town would indeed be free to be salvaged as the new port. The blast would force most of the refugees east and south, cutting off the westernmost towns, like
Screen shot 2010-08-21 at 10.56.14 PM
Lake City, from the bulk of the survivors of Erie. But I'm still not sure this should be the "largest" city of the state. SouthWriter 03:20, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Forgiveness Policy?

Sounds like a Soviet reeducation camp to me. I don't see it being that effective. The only way most of the raiders will go away is by force I'm afraid. --GOPZACK 03:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Pothier indeed it is a reeducation camp. It will be sponsored by the Amish and the other minor Penn. Dutch groups that are all about helping people and this would be a great opportunity to employ these former thugs and raiders. While many would decline, many who are tired of the "shoot, stab, rape" life would opt in for the program and they would be trained in St. Marys, a city which was once swarming with raiders itself can redeem itself under North Penn control and with help of the Amish and Penn Dutch it can become a potential site for new business. While in the reeducation camps they will learn (or re-learn) the basics of society, laws, and ethics. They will also receive job training and schooling if possible, and religious intervention for those who are deemed "totally f****d". So out of a state that might have 15,000 raiders left they have already redeemed around 500 and counting. Virginia used similar methods but more brutal ones. Arstarpool 03:48, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind it will be in Clarion. Arstarpool 04:23, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ah seems someone has been looking at my facebook page. St. Mar's is occupied by a joint force from Oil City & State College so anything done there will have to be done with the consent of State College. Also North Pennsylvania (If that name sticks & if it is graduated) will be a much weaker state then your original proposal so it will be cheaper and easier to kill the raiders, as sad as that is to say. --GOPZACK 15:44, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Weaker it will be, but not as much as you think. There is still oil, minerals, and wood mills and industry and oil refineries, all in other cities.

Other Objections

Before I make the main page long with peoples objections I would like you to post your objections here. Please do not make it mega long just list what you want changed and I will most likely change it. Arstarpool 20:17, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

I still think London would have gotten to Norfolk county first now that most of Eris was destroyed or abandoned. They wouldn't have the resources to annex that area. --GOPZACK 20:29, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Is that it? Really, is that it? There's no more objections? Arstarpool 22:28, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ok... heres a few more

  • Why would they offer annexation to Ithaca ind Binghamton? That makes no sense at all
  • The Line "Pennsylvania also contacted the Commonwealth of Kentucky via Virginia in 2002. The two nations had a lot in common, as both had retained their statehood names and had both been spared attacks on important locations." is first of all incorrect it implies Erie was spared an attack and secondly is a bitter shot at the survival of Fort Knox
  • Line "In 2007, it was a founding member of the United Communities along with Toledo and London-Ontario. St Marys was chosen as a capital, but eventually it was decided that Niagara Falls would be the perfect capital since it is a Canadian-American city and would not favor Canadians or Americans." is flawed because the Untied Communities is not canon yet and why would they consider a destroyed town that was once a raider hub as the capital?
  • What kind of planes does North Pennsylvania fly? Do they have propellers or jet engines? Where/how do they refine the jet fuel?
  • Who is buying the cars they are making?
  • Also the most liberal areas of North Pennsylvania were destroyed when Erie was attack so the GOP would have more of a presence.
  • Finally you do realize that you have to wait a bit before graduating it after asking "Any objections"? Also you have to address these objections, don't you know? --GOPZACK 22:41, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

That's it for now. --GOPZACK 22:39, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, let me answer the questions:

1. Deleted

2. Deleted.

3. Changed to make more sense.

4. Whatever was left over in airports that wasn't lost to EMP's. Those that could be repaired were repaired with help from Toledo and once the Wesleyville industry was opened back up there were even more planes repaired. There are also two oil refineries in the nation plus lots of gasoline so I guess making jet fuel wouldn't be impossible.

6. That's a non-issue. You know how things were back then with everyone voting back then for Reagan?

7. I do know that.

8. Norfolk County, probably the largest issue, well this was written in during the first drafts of the article and London came a bit after. If London had wanted it, they should have come before Pennsylvania and taken it when QSS and QAA is in the way. Pennsylvania cooperated with Toledo a lot early on and they did a check on Norfolk and it wasn't doing so well. While London was repairing the area around Aylmer, Norfolk became depopulated when its citizens decided to move to London territory, further worsening the conditions in the area. Eventually the citizens of Norfolk were offered a referendum to join either Toledo, Penn, or remain independent and they chose Pennsylvania due to the proximity and that Pennsylvania was more rural and had a wider food base they chose Pennsylvania, unlike Toledo and London, which had extreme food shortages (it says it right in the article). While I admit that this annexation occurred shortly after London expanded remember that the London article is not yet filled in, it makes no mention of claiming or controlling Norfolk.

Guys tell me if there are any more problems because I would like this article to be pretty plausible when I ask to get it graduated. Arstarpool 23:11, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

You didn't answer the point about cars.

...the part about Norfolk in the article makes no sense - it is contradictory. Given those choices, they'd have joined London before this state.

It would be more likely to have propeller planes in the region survive. And it makes it sound better, given the unknowns with being able to make jet fuel or not.

Lordganon 00:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the cars are mainly bought with Toledo who helps make the cars with their manufacturing of glass.

Read it now. Fixed. Guys I am going to play the QSS and QAA card and if London-Ontario wants to start a border dispute we can take it to the brass. Norfolk has pretty much been in this article since it was created.

Okay, propeller planes are cool. Arstarpool 00:47, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Guys I don't want to sound repetetive but I am basically going to keep on asking about objections until all the major and moderate ones are answered. So any other objections? Arstarpool 00:47, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

The QSS & QAA card? You do realize that London is canon and North Pennsylvania never has? London has precedent right now. Besides that its simply not possible with Erie for the most part out of the picture. --GOPZACK 00:52, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

North Pennsylvania came first. You stated on the California-Sierra dispute that its whatever article was made first has precedent and now you are stating its the canon that comes first? This whole time London should not have been graduated if that is the case. Arstarpool 01:15, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Somehow you have overlooked the first sentence of this the entire time:

"By a narrow margin, Norfolk County became a Pennsylvanian protectorate, but they promised to return control to Canada if they ever came into contact with them. They rejected joining London-Ontario since the state was focusing on repairing its own lands. They later came into direct contact with of London-Ontario after Norfolk-Ontario requested to open trade relations. London accepted. This was a major event in Pennsylvania since they could now use Norfolk County, Ontario as an international trade hub across Lake Erie."

Zack, its a protectorate! It is not fully part of the nation, but receives aid from Penn and such. If they want to pursue trade relations with London they can do so, but they are part of the North Pennsylvania article. They don't need Erie, they just need access to Lake Erie in general. Even then as a protectorate they don't need 24/7/365 access to the rest of Pennsylvania. Arstarpool 01:15, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

When the vote (not an "ultimatum") gives only a 40% plurality, there should at least be another vote. Personally, I don't think that a struggling American state government, less than seven years after major disaster, would be seeking to expand into Canada. It is too ambitious of a project. If anything they would be treking further into the interior of Pennsylvania itself to find resources. especially after the devesatating winter of 1986. SouthWriter 04:17, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
I reached my breaking point. You guys are right, its implausible, but I have decided to let Norfolk, ON pursue its own independent destiny apart from London and North Penn. However Pennsylvania's eyes are not off of Ontario, believe me, if Superior could do it I'm sure that Pennsylvania could do it albeit on a much smaller scale and later on. Arstarpool 04:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
Guys, I have answered all of the questions. Norfolk will be independent, and I think the article is ready to be asked for graduation, so if you have any remaining non-minor objections please speak now. I don't want to do what I did with California where I graduated it with objections. Furthermore, I do not want to graduate the article. I want it to be done by somebody else. So are there any more objections? Arstarpool 04:36, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
Well, Alex, you have done well. I see that this state is indeed an expansionist state patterned somewhat after Superior. You are right, it is as plausible for a Pennsylvanian state to seek to do this as a Michiganite one. In fact, given the milder weather in Pennsylvania, I'd say even more so. But just like with the parts of Superior that are in Canada, there will be those that object. In this case, Norfolk county has the advantage of larger survivor city-states in the immediate area. When I get done with this note, I will personally graduate the article. However, I think it should be changed back to West Pennsylvania - that's more accurate. Either way, though, it will be canon. --SouthWriter 15:41, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

On the same note as what South said, that's really not a plurality at all - maybe make it have two options, one for joining with an American survivor state - Toledo or North Penn - and the one for independence? That way one can have more than 50% (aim for 66% or so).

But sounds much better with it going its own.

Lordganon 15:02, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


Why would the target be the airport? Erie would have been targeted in the first place because of the steel mills. North Pennsylvania would not have access to those mills today. Mitro 15:58, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

I just graduated the article, but I can see your point. Arstarpool had done so much to take away the objections that I might have jumped the gun. How about it, Arstar, are there other steel mills that might be used once the resources become available? Or need we assume a near miss (I read somewhere that the accuracy was plus or minus 5 km with ICBM's). SouthWriter 16:10, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well I assumed the destruction of the city when I was forced to accept that Erie would be nuked, so I decided to "re-settle" some of the nearby boroughs and stuff. The steel mills are gone. Rather than focus on that one little thing, I have decided to search deep in the internet for any other good parts of the economy. I found the Joy Mining Company that could easily be converted into steel mills Please, are there any other objections? I really want to get this show on the road. ~Arstar

With Erie be wiped out, that would destroy the steel industry in NW PA. I don't think it would be very big. My nation has only recently begun producing steel and iron, with MAJOR overhaul, and conversion, but barely produces enough for use within the nation. Also, where do the iron and coal reserves come from? As far as I know those resources came from eastern PA. Again, Susquehanna has large coal and iron deposits, so that is plausible, but were does your coal and iron come from?

I could see salvaging steel from destroyed or abandoned areas, but producing their own without the resources? I am currently living in Erie, and seeing the nukes map, could see NP rebuilding the eastern half of the city.

Daeseunglim (talk)

Thing is, there is more steel plants in the area than just in Erie. Not near as large, but there nevertheless.

Coal? North Penn has coal mines. Can also import from Stare College easy enough. Superior would also hold some, though probably not for export.

Iron? Steel production is going to be low for the first while anyway - local stocks would be good for that. Then you have State College, and then Superior and Sudbury. Even if it has to be shipped overland for part of the trip, water access is a big bonus here - Superior territory has a lot of things like iron ore.

There's a reason why they make a lot of steel and such things here, and that's it.

Lordganon (talk) 11:24, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I found the stuff, and stand corrected! Thank you! Daeseunglim (talk)

The Map

The map has to be changed to eliminate the areas in green that are not canon and clear the future expansion areas in the lighter shades. --GOPZACK 22:10, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

I removed the map because when it comes to graduating the article you are going to whine on how the map isn't the way you want it and you don't like the "light" colors or something. And by the way, the green is Reading, PA, a city that is canon through the Pennsylvania State article. Arstarpool 02:00, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Reading may be canon but the boarders are not. --GOPZACK 02:05, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
Just show the present boundaries for "North Pennsylvania," Arstar, your article doesn't have to cover the rest of the state. Yes, the government there would like to have the whole state (to quote "for some odd reason"), but the reality of it is that that's not going to happen. If anything, the states will unite under the provisional government set up by the former governor of the pre-doomsday state. The infightings for new states is a little ridiculous, in my humble opinion any way. SouthWriter 02:46, September 21, 2010 (UTC)


The article says, "The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's military is split up into three divisions: Army, Navy, and Air Force." First the name of the nation is wrong, second it says below, "Unfortunately, there were no military bases in the area meaning they have no military". The two lines are contradictory and if they do indeed have "no military" the amnesty policy for raiders makes a bit more sense. I would also think they would have at the very least a small militia with weapons from gun shops or police armories. --GOPZACK 03:41, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

By having no military I meant to say "they have no true military" in the sense of a military on par with a proper nation state like, for example, the Canadian military. Their military would probably be around 8,000 with 10,000 in reserve or something. Arstarpool 04:16, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I signed your response Alex, using the history. I guess we all sometimes forget to sign our notes, huh?
Anyway, I see you changed the text to reflect Zack's concern. It's looking like the state is about ready for "graduation" (again). How about it, Mitro? SouthWriter 15:54, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


While I'm here, though, I thought it might be time to discuss a reunification of the great state of Pennsylvania. You have been on a campaign to do this in Florida, and have backed Brian's plan in Texas. How about it? The provisional government at State College did harbor the surviving state government, which makes "North Pennsylvania" somewhat of a renegade nation. What are the chances? Hmm ... SouthWriter 15:54, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I have had my own problems with the plausibility of the current revision of State College, namely the fact he doubled the size of the state recently in what appears to be a "choke-off" to North Penn's expansion so right now on behalf of North Penn in my mind I refuse to let a reunification happen, yet, that is. Remember there is the Reading State Government as well and there was a St. Marys government until Zack destroyed it, literally killed off the "raider" leadership of the town and annexed the territory. Just in case I am going to make a page Pennsylvania Commonwealth to talk about any unification possibilities. But on behalf of Reading and North Penn I will state that any unification is way down the road, at best 2013, too many of the lands in between the nations are lawless and Zack is sticking with his twice-as-original map of State College.
Just having the governor doesn't make them the heirs to the throne. If the Queen died and all her closest relatives some distant King of Prussia couldn't show up and take the throne, so if most of the major cities and the rest of the leader ship just the governor and a small bunch arriving doesn't necessarily make them a true successor state. Arstarpool 21:51, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Arstar, you need to understand a few things. St. Marys was not destroyed but liberated from gangs well before North Penn or whatever you were calling it at the time, came along. State College was not doubled to choke you off. North Penn could not plausibly expand into those same areas. South is right North Penn is a renegade nation. If it were to unite with Reading and not include State College in that union (Which is nevertheless implausible) it would be a illegitimate government.

If Reading is written by you to include poor relations with State College with great relations with North Penn or any unification plans that leave out State College. We will all know that it is a tactical move on your part and not a legitimate or plausible move for this timeline.

Stop claiming that I hate this article, I graduated the bloody thing a few hours ago. I even wrote on your talk page commending your perseverance and sticking with the article through all of these rewrites and objections. --GOPZACK 00:20, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Zack, for bringing the discussion back to plausibility. Your article about State College would be a bit more accurate if we could somehow change the discussion to the government there. Each state is still by law 'sovereign' in its own affairs. The legitimate governments of the states have a right to the territory that is theirs. Ever since you created the "State College" article I've seen it as the legitimate government based on its proximity to the state capital (not to mention its centrality). In changing the official name to "The Provisional Government of Pennsylvania at State College" we reflected the plausible history of at least part of the government getting out alive. By having a continuing government in place, all other claimants are by definition "renegade."
With that in mind, the provisional government at Reading seems to be a factor that Brian expected to develop, and which Mitro encouraged. Arstar's article came into the picture without considering what had already been written. Zack's "Pennsylvania" became the measuring stick, and he readily incorporated a friendly relationship with the survivors in NW PA to defeat the warlords at St. Marys. No further mention has been made of Reading until the maps began to appear. Zack then evenly divided the state between the three competing "nations" and such a map was accepted for months. Arstar's recent paranoia seems irrational given the effort the community has put into reviewing his article. For Arstar to lash out at co-editors is a sad thing. I hope that these disagreements can be set aside to bring about a better wiki. --SouthWriter 15:27, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
The analogy of the demise of the royal family is flawed. Actually, the laws of succession in England might indeed go to some German aristocrat in such a case. The royal families of Europe are all related, so distant cousins are a possibility in such cases. (SouthWriter)
Uh, I made the map that divided the area into three areas. Are you referring to the one that had two?
If you feel I lashed out at you guys I'm sorry. If you feel I lashed out at Zack then I stand by what I did. Zack has frickin' screwed me over on multiple occasions, some of which he wasn't using his head ( such as the time he put South Florida as under review because he forgot he was caretaker and he decided to make me do all the needed changes) and I will never forgive him for that. Me and him are just to different to ever successfully work on a project together and every time I've tried to work on him with something either I end up doing almost all the work (Like on New Rome), or in South Florida where I wrote most more than half of the article and then makes it seem like you and him did all the work, or in the case of North Florida where I am the one who contacted Perryz/Sunkist on adopting the article (admittedly with bad intentions) when he refused to acknowledge that me or Perryz/Sunkist worked on it at all. Just because he graduated my "bloody" article doesn't make anything better. I am mad at him and now with a big fuss over Superior. I think its better I leave now. Arstar [talk] 22:13, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Anyways me and Zack discussed the unification a while back as I recall and he agreed that it would be way down the road as well. Arstar [talk] 01:01, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

A reunited Pennsylvania would be a good idea for the future. North Pennsylvania, State Collage, Gettysburg, and Reading could unite to form a new Pennsylvania Republic. It's to bad that rebuilding Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and Pittsburgh won't happen any time soon due to the radiation which will take decades or centuries to die down. 15:46, December 8, 2013 (UTC)Jacob Chesley

Doubtful that it would ever happen, JC. Register! Lordganon (talk) 15:53, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

The St. Mary's Territories

Do you guys think it would make sense to have the former St. Mary's territories be a jointly-controlled area? Arstar [talk] 03:23, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

The control did come through a joint effort, so that's a possibility. However, if the warlords and gangs were eradicated, then that would leave it up to the citizens of that city-state. Ideally, the whole state will come together (see above). If there is joint control, then I'd say that is an indication of eventual reunification. That's my two cents on that. --SouthWriter 04:02, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

So your saying that the jointly-controlled area would be the first steps towards reunification? I should consult with Zack about this, but I don't feel like talking to him at all right now. Arstar [talk] 04:14, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch

It seems that you are using the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a unified group like the Amish. The term is much broader, referring to a large ethnic group of north European emigrants. The term is sometime used exclusively of the religious orders - the Minonnites and the Amish - which I believe is the way you were using it when you spoke of the lifestyles not changing much. Of course, the Minnonites are far less primitive in their ways than are the Amish, so they would have adjust a bit more. To use "Pennsylvania Dutch" and Amish together, though, is redundant. SouthWriter 14:57, October 1, 2010 (UTC)


Hey guys, I need help revamping this article. I'm finding that there's a lot of redundant sentences or I'm not putting the right info in certain places. If somebody could fix the grammar issues and word it better I would be so happy :) Arstar 02:18, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that was tonight's project. I hope I didn't make any drastic changes in my enthusiasm. :-) SouthWriter 04:28, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I accidentally deleted your changes to the economy section but I'll fix that myself. Arstar 04:53, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Media, sports

I'll be happy to help. What are your guidelines concerning media and sports for North Pa.? BrianD 04:16, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sports, include the Clarion University sports teams, thats my only guideline. Media, at most two television stations, at most 8-10 radio stations and as many newspapers as you would like to put. I'm trying to keep this nation basic, but in no ways primitive. Arstar 04:50, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Clarion: which conference would they play in TTL? Who do they compete against?BrianD 05:16, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Arstar, would you be open to putting under sports (with permission from SC's author and Godphrey) that all the PA survivor states are planning on reforming the PIAA for high school and college level sports, and have a goal of reforming a state wide sports conference? It would be a unique way for the nations to begin integrating low level functions to provide greater stability and prosperity to Pennsylvania. Daeseunglim (talk)

Education, Culture

I'm "unlocking" these two sections to the public like what I did with Sports and Media. I will find a way to reward whoever does these sections. Arstar 22:31, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

I am currently attending Gannon University in Erie. Most of the professors live well away from the city, and that is how it has always been. Many students would have died, and the campus would be radioactive and heavily damaged, but would it be possible for the university to restart in Union City or something? Obviously it would be much smaller, but it was just a thought. Also, about 1/4 of the students commute from outside of Erie, and many go home on the weekend. There are a lot of alumni who still live in the area. Daeseunglim (talk)

Don't see why not, especially if the administration is still alive. Would be very helpful for the starting of the state as well, including industries. Lordganon (talk) 14:20, March 5, 2015 (UTC)

Can I add it? Daeseunglim (talk)

Sure. Lordganon (talk) 23:23, March 23, 2015 (UTC)


I love this. I live in Titusville, pa.


Were the remnants of Erie incorporated into Northwest Harborcreek, and where exactly was Erie struck because that would affect the survival of the downtown area. A picture on the page is of downtown Erie, and it is labled as Northeest Harborcreek. If the bomb struck the airport it would have survived, but if it hit the factories, it would not have. Daeseunglim (talk)

i propose merging article with survivor states like on the main page on the 1983 dd article for new unified pennsylvania HOOVERCollectionfan (talk) 17:04, March 25, 2017 (UTC)

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