Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

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Algo Template (WIP)

This algo template is being worked on in order to standardize algos, which will make it simpler for mods to check them and fix them. Once this algo template is declared official, a mod (probably me) will declare that at the start of the turn following the declaration, all algos must follow this format and if not, they will not be regarded as valid.

Feel free to comment about the algo template, suggest something that would increase it's effectivity, ask questions, or even suggest changes to the algo. Note that no matter what, nothing but the hundreth/thousandth digit of the Edit Count / UTC time * pi will be bolded in the algo.

Cheers, SkyGreen24 17:33, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

===Attacker===

*Location:
**Location Bonus:
*Tactical Advantage:
*Nations Per Side:
*Military Development:
*Economic Development:
*Expansion:
*Motive:
**Modifiers:
*Chance:
**Edits:
**UTC (ABCD) = A * B * C * D =
** /  * pi =
*Nation Age:
*Population:
*Participation:
*Number of Troops:
*Theaters of War:
*Concurrent Wars:
Total:

===Defender===
*Location:
**Location Bonus:
*Tactical Advantage:
*Nations per side:
*Military Development:
*Economy Development:
*Infrastructure:
*Expansion:
*Motive:
**Modifiers:
*Chance:
**Edits:
**UTC (ABCD) = A * B * C * D =
** /  * pi =
*Nation Age:
*Population:
*Participation:
*Recent Wars:
*Troops strength:
*Theaters of War:
*Concurrent Wars:
Total:

===Result===
===Discussion===

Industrial algo update

Due to us beginning to drive into the industrial age, the algo needs to be updated accordingly, With this having happened in PMII with decent success (and one of our redeeming qualities that someone always updates the maps usually) we will be replicating this here (support was shown by multiple mods a few of which were PMII veterans.) This will be represented on a map much like the Game map, but with the colors replaced to represent differing industrial levels and when they started. A Chart to represent will go below this post and just above that a map (currently in progress) will be posted to represented our first industrializers. In extenuating circumstances the chart can be superceded to show a change in industrial development quicker than represented on the chart but this will only be for Meiji, or rapid German industrialization efforts.

In the algo an algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are.  an example would be in a war between Britain and France, the British are 3 stages ahead of the French in terms of industrial development (for whatever circumstance caused this) the British would multiple their ending score by 1.3.

If anyone is wondering, currently industrialization will be mostly in europe with a select few nations outside of the continent it would be currently taking place (nations with a realistic reason to adopt it as such such as asian nations with a extremely anti-colonial attitude, or something along the lines of Japan.) Industrialization in the Americas (when stuff goes independent) will depend on how the territory is when it gains independence and will more than likely have to be handled on a case by case basis like the outside of Europe industrializers.

Colour	Stage 1	Stage 2	Stage 3	Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6	Stage 7
Crimson	1700	1730	1770	1800	1850	1900	1950
Red	1720	1745	1780	1810	1860	1900	1950
Orange	1740	1765	1795	1820	1870	1905	1950
Yellow	1760	1770	1800	1830	1880	1905	1950
Light Green	1780	1800	1810	1840	1890	1910	1960
Dark Green	1800	1810	1820	1850	1900	1910	1960
Dark Blue	1820	1830	1840	1860	1900	1920	1975
Blue	1840	1845	1850	1870	1910	1930	1990
Sky Blue	1855	1860	1865	1880	1910	1935	2000
Lavender	1870	1875	1880	1890	1920	1950	N/A
Violet	1890	1895	1900	1910	1930	1950	N/A
Colonisation Bonus	?	?	2x Expansion	4x Expansion	8x Expansion	16x Expansion	N/A

• Stage 1
• Stage 2​
• Stage 3
• Stage 4​
• Stage 5
• Stage 6​
• Stage 7

• The Air Furnace is developed
• Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
• Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized

Various chemicals are produced in large amounts

Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline

Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper

Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand

Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Experimental Railways begin to crop up

Stronger cements are produced

Steel and Glass are avaliable

A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat

Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Wide use of civilian and military purpose use railways

Tanks and planes appear

Total War emerges with populations also targetted

Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons

Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war

Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion

As Said Above, Industrialization aside from a few cases (and a case by case evaluation of tier jumps such as a US/German rapid industrialization, or a Japan Meiji or an Asian anti colonial reasoning) will be mostly within Europe and the Americas initially. As a relatively new person to the industrial tier buisiness i will be consulting PMII vets on how it was implemented but for right now due to ease the only two current industrializing states are France and Spain (and the other particulars will be worked out before another one joins the mix). Please bear with us while i gather the needed information to implement this properly.

The intended purpose of this is to prevent an unindustrialized state such as a disorganized tribe being able to deal a true and terrible blow to the Great industrial powers since this rarely happened, (and when it did it was usually due to vast numerical superiority, and even then it only happened once or twice). This is also to simulate a war and the vast advantages provided by industry in this case.

In the case of colonies, that can/will be handled by the mother nation. Plausibly most nations did not let directly owned colonies to industrialize (which is in fact represented by the fact that most colonies will be represented by the mother nations industrial colors). Colonies, under certain circumstances will be allowed to industrialize independently, and due to the access to technology and depending on their terms of industrialization (if they fought a 15 year war of independence like most of Spain OTL colonies) then industrialization will be a rather tough thing to propose to a new nation that would be essentially bankrupt right off the bat. Colonies that Gain Self rule or co-opting rule of any kind will also be able to industrialize in most cases due to the relatively open nature in which its being done. However a problem with this is how will you as a Colonial power manage your self ruling colonies industrial policy without inciting revolt. 

This Era must be played carefully while the pertinent information is being discussed please be patient, but for now play on, enioy the game, and plan your moves Carefully The Wings of Freedom #FP (Talk to Me)

Maps

Map Issues

The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on.

Emeraldie traded the Northern Bahamas for the Algonquian Antilles. They should also control Easter island, the Pitcain islands and the uncontrolled areas of French Polynesia. Dreamcaster1 (talk) 20:00, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

All foreign land in India should be annexed (not just coloured). As of right now, Goa is the only foreign enclave in India. Also, Burma has been conquered and should be merged with Bengal. Also, India controls Seychelles.                The night is dark and full of terrors. 

Morocco in 1910.

As of 1910, the Moroccan Sultanate has expended a total of 45,000 px every 10 years, marking German West Africa no longer to expend anymore. Also, Morocco has conquered five West African countries during their colonial wars 1903-1905 and 1906 - 1908 and are annexed to Morocco immediately. Spain has expended African colonies highly so they blocked Morocco's eastern exploration. This is a map of Morocco in year 1910 right here.

Eric von Schweetz ^{T C IM]}

I bought the French colony in Angola, not Crim. I also bought all the islands between Papua and Tahiti from the Dutch long ago, they're not Japanes. Also, I now control all of eastern New Mecklenburg. Thank you.Nathan1123 (talk) 00:50, June 26, 2015 (UTC)

Mongolia should be colored, and the state south of it should be colored a vassal. Harvenard2 (talk) 01:04, June 26, 2015 (UTC)

Oldenburg has been enforcing its 1812 claim to Svalbard in recent years, so Germany should probably have at least the area around otl Longyearbyen for the next map, if not the entire island. Thanks, Callumthered (talk) 00:16, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Here is South Africa in 1940. Fritzmet (talk) 17:09, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Algonquia for the next map. ᐊ ᒋᐟᕀ ᐃᐣ ᕒuᐢᓯᐊ 16:02, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Here is the Congo with my expansions Nathan1123 (talk) 03:42, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Colony of Kinshasa, c.1940

Labelled

Labelled map

Labelled map

Labelled map

Labelled map

Labelled map

Labelled East Africa (1540)

North American Native Tribes (1583)

Map of China, 17th century.

Map of the Iroquois Post-Collapse (1660)]]

These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

 North American Native Tribes (1583) Key 

1 - Iroquois
2 - Lenni Lenape (Delaware)
3 - Susquehanna
4 - Erie
5 - Wyandotte (Huron)
6 - Odishkwaagamiig (Nipissing)
7 - North Ojibwa
8 - Tionontati (Petun)
9 - Ottawa
10 - Attawandaron (Neutral)
11 - Bodewadmik (Potawatomi)
12 - Asakiwaki (Sauk)
13 - Meskwaki (Fox)
14 - Kiwigapawa (Kickapoo)
15 - Mascouten
16 - Twightwee (Miami)
17 - Shawanwa (Shawnee)
18 - Mamaceqtaw (Menominee)
19 - Ho-chunk (winnebego)
20 - Anishinabeg (Ojibwe)
21 - Gojijiwininiwag (Rainy Lake and River Bands of Saulteaux)
22 - Santee Dakota (Sioux)
23 - Cahokia (Mississippia)
24 - Tsoyaha (Yuchi)
25 - Ani'yunwi'ya (Cherokee)
26 - Mvskoke Etvlwv (Creek)
27 - Yamasee
28 - Thimogna (Timucna)
29 - Mikasuki (Seminole)
30 - Apalachee
31 - Chatot
32 - Pensacola
33 - Taneks-haya (Biloxi)
34 - Acolapissa
35 - Houma
36 - Chitimach
37 - Bayogoulaa
38 - Natchez
39 - Yoron (Tunica)
40 - Chahta (Choctaw)
41 - Albaamaha
42 - Koasati (Coushatta)
43 - Chickasha (Chickasaw)
44 - Ugakhpa (Quapaw)
45 - Kadawdaachuh (Caddo)
46 - Kiowa
47 - Niukonska (Osage)
48 - Illini
49 - Neutache (Missouria)
50 - Otoe
51 - East Swampy Cree
52 - Moose Cree
53 - Eastern Cree
54 - L'Nu

Unofficial

Cultural

Now, I will attempt to list the myriad of cultures that are represented on the map. To do so, I will go by continent.

 Europe 

• Dark Green - Portuguese
• Light Blue - Spanish
• Lighter Blue - Italian
• Medium Green - Rhinelander
• Dark Burgundy - Dutch
• Bright Blue - Occitan
• Royal Blue - Breton
• Shamrock Green - Irish
• Red - Britannian English
• Light Pink - German
• Dark Pink - Baltic
• Yellow - Scandinavian
• Light Orange - West Slavic
• Dark Orange - Russian (East Slavic)
• Green - South Slavic (Croatian)
• Imperial Purple - Greek
• Reddish Purple - Albanian
• Light Green - Romanian

 Asia/Australia 

• Lime Green - Arabic
• Forest Green - Turkic
• Light Yellow - Atlaic-Persian
• Reddish-Pink - Caucasian
• Dark Green - Mughal
• Green - Indian
• Light Green - Tibetan
• Gray-Blue - Siberian
• Bright Blue - Chinese
• Royal Blue - Japanese
• Other Blue - Malay/Indonesian
• Green - Austronesian

 Africa 

• Olive Green - Berber
• Deep Red - West African
• Red - Central African
• Hot Pink - Latinized East African
• Green - Muslim-African
• Light Blue - Nubian/Ethiopian
• Darker Blue - Egypt

 Borealia/Hesperia 

• Clay Red - Meso-American/Pueblo
• Light Green - Mississippian
• Neon Green - Cree
• Purple-Blue - Mapuche
• Lightest Yellow - Incan

It is finished! Reximus | Talk to Me! 01:34, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

---

Religious Map

Alright, added another religion map. Map is based off of the 1655 Map. Same rules apply: List all changes below in the Notes section.

Reximus | Talk to Me! 18:46, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

All regions are shown according to their plurality religion.

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in dark gold, and Catholic states whose churches function independently of the Roman Church are shown in pale yellow. Ludwigism is shown in bright gold. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Reformism is red. Sunni Islam is lime green, Shia Islam is forest green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green, Assafi Islam is bright green, and Paganistic Islam is mint green. The Mastorava is teal blue, Hinduism is sky blue, and Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink. Other religions will be added as needed.

Notes

• Added Charismatic Christianity and Mogul Khanate is now Charismatic king Trevor 1 of wales (talk) 12:38, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
• Added Lutherism for HollandDrPepperisbetter (talk) 22:27, June 2, 2015 (UTC)

Mod Event Grievances

Just so that it doesn't clutter the page, please post your mod event questions, comments and grievances here. This -should- be archived every five years.

General Discussion

Algo reform (WIP)

Intro

As we all know, the PMIII algo is seriously biased towards the number of nations participating. And so, the mods (mostly me, Crimmyboo and MP) set forth to find a solution. And Pita suggested his new algo for AvA, which I decided to look into.

So I did. Since Pita is Asian, his mathematical skills are unsurpassed, which allowed me to more or less take the algo, with minor tweaks and adjustments. I hope you all read it through and give me your opinion on it.

Note: The industrial update will have a heavy impact on the algo, since we lack tiers. Second note: I'm using tabbers now, tabbers are cool. EDIT: Tr0ll doesn't like my tabbers. Third note: Numbers are not rounded up/down anymore. Everything stays the way it is.

Location

Location is a tricky one, since it usually only factors in the distance, while I also want to factor in the speed of transport etc.

Mostly, location goes by capital city, however I disagree with that. It will also include locations that are militarized (i.e. Rhein area pre-WW2).

• At the location of war: +15
• Next to the location of war: +8
• Close to the location of war: +4
• Far from the location of war: -4
• Other side of the world: -8

As you might've noticed, all but the 'at' locations are italicized. Why? Well, because the infrastructure and industrial development of a nation highly impact its ability to mobilize and get to a location in a set time period. Which is why each of the 7 stages will be given a multiplier that will affect the location.

Stage 1		Stage 2		Stage 3		Stage 4		Stage 5		Stage 6		Stage 7
1.875	0.625	1.5	0.75	1.25	0.75	1	1	0.875	1.0625	0.75	1.125	0.625	1.25

Tactical advantage

This one will not be impacted by industrial stages, atleast not until modern times.

• Attacker’s advantage: +2
• Defender’s advantage: +5
• Surprise attack: Attackers +6
• Home is island: Defenders +4
• Home is desert: Defenders +6
• Home is jungle/tropical: Defenders +8
• Home is tundra/arctic: Defenders +10 in winter, +12 in spring
• Amphibious landing: Defenders +6

Strength

I decided to stay true to the ol' PMIII algo and thus, strength won't be that similar to AvA. Instead, a system similar to PM's Nation-per-side will be used.

• L - +Industrial stage
• M - +0.75 Industrial stage
• S - +0.5 Industrial stage
• V - -0.25 Industrial stage
• 3 or more V and PU (PU=L) - -0.25 per extra V/PU (starting from the third one)
• Much larger economy - +5
• Larger economy - +3
• Better military (weapons, armour, training, number etc.) - +3
• Fully mobilized - +3
• Naval dominance: +5

Motive

Motive was obviously going to be more PMIII-akin than Ava-akin, however I also decided to add a Sky twist to it.

• Economic (Gains land, resources, etc): + 3
• Aiding Ally: + 3
• Defending territory not held for more than 20 years: + 4
• Defending territory not part of heartland but held for more than 20 years: + 5
• Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5
• Pre-emptive Strike against a nation rapidly building military forces: + 5
• Taking back territory recently held by nation but since lost: + 6
• Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed: + 7
• Attacking to enforce political hegemony: +7
• Defending Heartland from attack that will not cripple/ destroy nation: + 5
• Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 9
• Defending from attack that will wipe out nation and culture: + 10 (pre-nuclear era), + 15 (post-nuclear era)
• Defending from nuclear armed nation that has a motive over 5 and has not yet used their weaponry: + 10
• Defending from nuclear armed nation, regardless of motive, that has used said weaponry: + 15

Vassal motive:

• If a vassal that is fighting has revolted within the last 30 years, its motive is multiplied by 0.75

Motive is averaged

Morale

Morale is now separated from motive, as motive only affects the soldiers, while morale affects the whole population of a nation.

• Non-democratic Government: -2
• Democratic government: +3
• Government not supported by people: -10
• WAR not supported by people (democratic) : -3
• WAR not supported by people (non-democratic): -2
• Troop Morale high (requires motive over or equal to 5, chance over 4, and larger strength: +5
• Troop Morale low (any of the following: chance below 1, srength less or equal to 50% of opponents, recent war penalty over 8): - 5
• Fighting Guerrilla War: -5 attacker, + 1 defender
• Multiple concurrent wars: -10 (per nation and its vassals and PUs)
• Defeat suffered within the previous two years: -2 per defeat

Total morale is calculated in the same way as motive

Chance

Good ol' chance. This one stays the same

• Edit number = x
• War declaration time digits multiplied (0s are treated as 1s) = y
• x/y*pi = z
• Chance = Hundredth place of z

For NPCs, the chance will be defined as the thousandth place of z, using the exact same algorithm as the player nation.

Population

• The population score is the number of digits in the population + the additional bonus, which is below:
• +2 to the larger nation that is less than five times the population of the smaller.
• +10 if the larger nation is between five and ten times the population of the smaller.
• +20 if the larger nation is more than ten times the population.

Nation age

Goes by the last major change in the system of government.

• Newborn nation (less than 5 years since gov change; 3 years if popular revolt) = -10
• Young nation (5–25 years since government change) = -5
• Maturing nation (25–75 years) = +0
• Mature nation (75–200 years) = +5
• Old nation (200–300 years) = +0
• Ancient nation (300–500 years) = -5
• Antique nation (more than 500 years) = -15

Recent wars

• -2 for Leadership in any war in the past 15 years.
• -1 for and Military or supply support in the past 15 years

Troop number

Same as old algo, the larger gets divided by the smaller.

Other stuff

• Participation: +10
• Treaty breaking: -5
• Alliance breaking: -10
• -1 per turn you have expanded.
• If your nation has recently had a popular revolt soon after a new weak government was formed (like Adolf Hitler or Napoleon Bonaparte) your score is multiplied by 1.5 for all wars in the next ten years. However, you cannot have multiple popular revolts of this nature in a row without government changes in between.
• City-states get a *0.5 modifier for the amount of territory they lose in the initial results algorithm and can take territory so long as the nation they take it from has territory to take close enough for the city-states to rule without it being considered a colony.
• If you take 33.33% of your opponent's territory or more, you can topple their government and do whatever is plausible to their nation that you wish.
• It may be implausible for a nation to take or lose the full amount of territory listed in the algorithm.
• You can add together winning percentage scores in order to total 33.33% if all of the wars happened within a 30 year period.
• A popular revolt requires over 33.33% to be put down, while one that isn't popular only requires a victory.
• Small ports (e.g. Shanghai, Hong Kong), cannot be a nation in a war unless that port specifically is being attacked.
• For measuring the length of wars, the turn war is declared counts as the first year if fighting takes place in it. So for example, if the algo says the war lasts three years, then the turn the war was declared counts as the first IF the target was also invaded. It is possible to not invade the turn war is declared, although this gives the enemy the possibility of mobilizing.

Result

The same as before.

(x/(x+y))*2-1=z

z*(1-1/(2*t))=%

Post your opinions below, hopefully with constructive criticism.

Algo reform discussion

Can we remove the tabs? All they're doing is hiding the content and making it harder to read. Also what does this reform do to address the actual problems that led to it? What does it do for vassals, for example? Also with this system an independent Gotland would probably repulse the entire Empire of Scandinavia, since they'd get +29 in tactical advantage alone. Tr0llis (talk) 16:25, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Here's what I'd rather see, instead of basically all of this (EDIT: When I said all of this I meant location and tactical advantage. Sky has since edited to add more, which I have yet to read). Note I did not write this, and it is not finished. it's just a snippet I found:

 snippet 

==Location==

Location goes by attacker's closest territory and defender's targeted territory, in which fighting actively takes place. 

'''Attacker'''

*20 - Borders territory of enemy where fighting is actively taking place, in same continent 
*15 - Attacking territory on the same continent, traveling primarily by land.
*10 - Attacking distant territory on the same continent or across major bodies of water; attacking neighboring subcontinents or regions (France to Russia, United Kingdom to Denmark, Germany to Syria).
*5 - Attacking territory on a distant continent (United States to Germany, Spain to Mexico).

'''Defender'''

*25 - Defending territory is part of core territory/homeland; area under attack is near capital or in easily accessible area from it.
*20 - Defending neighboring territory within home continent.
*15 - Defending distant territory or important/large territory on another continent (United Kingdom defending Canada or India).
*10 - Defending vastly distant or minor possession (United Kingdom defending Singapore).

Each nation or possession involved in combat gets a location, and each location is added up then divided by number of nations per that side.

==Supply Lines==

'''Attacker'''
*10 - Attacking an area that borders core sections of nation; easily accessible to troops and supplies.
*5 - Attacking distant area on continent, or via amphibious landing.
*0 - Attacking on the other side of the world, and/or with amphibious landing.

Modifiers
*Added to each nation that is less than ten for supply lines:
**2 - Attacker has major empire at least twice as large as home nation. 
**2 - Attacker has supporting fleet connecting their home nation to battlefield.
**2 - Attacker has intermediary territory between their home nation and the battlefield that can be used to supply or safe guard ships. 
*Added once:
**-10 - Subjected to scorched earth retreat.
**-10 - Blockade completely cutting off supplies to front lines.

'''Defender'''
*10 - Defending home territory or neighboring/nearby areas.
*5 - Defending disconnected or distant territory.

Modifiers
*Added to each nation that is less than ten for supply lines:
**2 - Defender has major empire at least twice as large as home nation. 
**2 - Defender has supporting fleet connecting their home nation to battlefield.
**2 - Defender has intermediary territory between their home nation and the battlefield that can be used to supply or safe guard ships. 
*Added once:
**-10 - Subjected to scorched earth retreat.
**-10 - Blockade completely cutting off supplies to front lines.

==Tactical Advantage==

'''Attacker'''
*25 - Utilizes blitzkrieg or rapid overpowering by advanced technology or superior numbers (WW2 Germany, Revolutionary France, European Subjugation of natives).
*20 - Is on equal footing to defender in terms of technology. 
*15 - Amphibious landing or distant invasion; charge against superior defenses.
*10 - Raid or low quality attack.

Modifiers (Once per side)
*Superior Numbers: 5
*Siege weapons or artillery: 5

'''Defender'''
*20 - Defending

Modifiers (Once per side)
*Superior Numbers: 5
*High quality fortifications: 5

Tr0llis (talk) 16:30, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Could've atleast waited till I finish it. However I will look into it. SkyGreen24 16:47, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: I tried to implement the snippet version in previous algos, and it just doesn't cut it (note: I used 1 on 1 algos, to avoid the issues of the previous algo). I'm going to use the initial one, but with an adapted tactical advantage. SkyGreen24 18:17, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Just a question, could we have a mock war with multiple nations per side just to see how its implemented for future reference?-Lx ^{(leave me a message)} 20:23, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but I need ideas for participants, if you could help mayhaps? SkyGreen24 16:34, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

A war with multiple indian states perhaps? that area of the world is both fractured and devoid of player-states it seems.-Lx ^{(leave me a message)} 19:48, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

World War II (Locked to Non-Mods PERIOD.)

Results: Caliphate toppled. Germany defeated in West Africa.

Borealian Invasion of Burma

Pacific Protection Sphere

Location:

Tactical Advantage:

Strength:

Motive:

Morale:

Chance:

Nation Age:

Population:

Participation: 10

Recent Wars:

Number of Troops:

Total:

India

Location: 15

Tactical Advantage: 

Strength: 5

Motive: 5

Morale: 3

Chance:

Nation Age:

Population: 

Participation: 10

Recent Wars: 

Number of Troops:

Multiple Fronts: -10

Total:

Spanish Invasion of Southern India

Spain

Location:

Tactical Advantage:

Strength:

Motive:

Morale:

Chance:

Nation Age:

Population:

Participation: 10

Recent Wars:

Number of Troops:

India

• Location: 15*1.125 = 16.875

• Tactical Advantage: +5

• Strength: +5 +3

• Motive: 5

• Morale: 3

• Chance:

• Nation Age: 0

• Population: +19

• Participation: 10

• Recent Wars: -6

• Number of Troops: 4 million/2 million = 2

• Multiple Fronts: -10

• Total: 52.875 + chance

Mesopotamian/Hejaz Front

Holy League

• Location: 8*1.125 = 9
• Tactical Advantage: +2 +6
• Strength: +6 +4 (Assyria) +4 (Georgia) +3 (Transylvania) +3 (Vlachia) +5 +5 +3 +3
• Motive: +7
• Morale: +5
• Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 9173/12 * pi = 2401.49 = 9
• Population: +8 +2
• Nation Age: 0
• Troop number: 4mil/2mil? = 2
• Other stuff: +10
• Total: 96

Caliphate

• Location: 15*1.125 = 16.875
• Tactical Advantage: +5
• Strength: +6+3
• Motive: +9
• Morale: -7
• Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
• Population: +8
• Nation Age: +5
• Other stuff: +10
• Other fronts: -10
• Total: 51.875

Results

[(96/147.875 * 2 - 1)*100] * [1-(1/(2*3))] = 24.86%

Turkish Front

Tartary (Holy League)

• Location: 8*1.125 = 9
• Tactical Advantage: +2 +6
• Strength: +6 +3 +3 +3
• Motive: +7
• Morale: +3
• Chance:  (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
• Population: +8 
• Nation Age: 5
• Troop number: 1mil/1mil? = 0
• Other stuff: +10
• Total: 71

Caliphate

• Location: 15*1.125 = 16.875
• Tactical Advantage: +5
• Strength: +6+3
• Motive: +5
• Morale: -2
• Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
• Population: +8
• Nation Age: +5
• Other stuff: +10
• Other fronts: -10
• Total: 52.875

Results

[(71/123.875 * 2 - 1)*100] * [1-(1/(2*3))] = 12.19%

Discussion

So I appreciate any possible algo check and please do post concerns here, but I think this is open and shut. For people to be aware of, there is a third algo, of Ethiopia invading Somalia, but since two algos already add up to more than 33%, I was lazy and didn't do it. If that changes and it needs to be done, I will. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 01:16, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rhine Front

France and Netherlands

• Location: 8*1.125=9
• Tactical: 2
• Strength: +6 +6 +6 (France, Andea, Netherlands) +3 (Spain limited)
• Motive: +7+3+3 = 4.33
• Morale: -2+3+3 = 4
• Chance: 
• Population: +9 (Andea is Involved as well)+2 
• Troops: 8 million/4 million=2
• Age: -10 -5 +0= -5
• Participation: +10
• Total: 58.333 etc * 1.2 = 70

Germany

• Location: 15
• Tactical: 5
• Strength: 6
• Motive: +9
• Morale: +3
• Chance:
• Population: +8
• Age: 0
• Multiple Fronts: -10
• Participation: +10
• Total: 46

Result

Chance has not been calculated yet, but the results are approximately 18%

Disscussion

I have removed non-nation sections in strength until sides are solidified and clear.  #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:18, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I have removed non-nation sections in strength until sides are solidified and clear. This goes for both sides. Also, location for +15 does not get multiplied. #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:48, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

France at least needs the revolutionary modifier, so I believe with precident that's a 1.2 multiplier for the Coalition. 

Further updates will follow. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 23:12, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

The Poland player (Survivor) just said on chat he's dropping out of the war. Also, what's the 1.2 for?

I am that guy (talk) 23:38, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

As MP said above. Also if Survivor could confirm that in-game, then the algo will be corrected appropriately.

                SCRAWLAND INVICTUS || REX IMPERATOR  

I thought that it doesn't apply if there's three other states that don't get it.

I am that guy (talk) 23:46, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Also, why is Scraw in charge of the Rhine front algo if he is in the war against me? Yeah... definitely a neutral mod there... I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:48, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

The troops numbers are wrong. Germany sent 11.5 million troops to fight on the Rhine Front, yet this algo doesn't even have a spot for German troops numbers. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:49, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Who said Scraw is in charge? He's not even a mod. Also everyone knows that there are errors in the algorithm, but when Edge tried to fix them Guy undid them and threatened to ban him. Fritzmet (talk) 23:56, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

I was on chat when MP told Scraw he was in charge of the algos. And secondly, I was on facebook when both Crim and Sky told Guy that Edge was out of line. I highly doubt Guy threatened to ban Edge, but was most likely relaying the words of Crim and/or Sky. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Isn't location averaged, like France (next to), Netherlands (next to), and then Andea (pretty sure it other side of the world)?

I am that guy (talk) 01:03, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

West African Front [Cameroon]

Spanish/Brazilian Dominions

• Location: 15*1.25
• Tactical: 2+6
• Strength: 6 [Brazil] + 6 [Morocco] + 6 [Algeria] + 6 [Porto Natal] + 6 [Solumbuso] + 6 [Suazilândia] + 6 [Bechuanalândia] + 6 [Zimbabwe] + 6 [Nyasalândia] + 6 [Rodésia] + 6 [Barotzilândia] + 6 [Garanganja]
• Motive: 7+5+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 4
• Morale: +3+5
• Population: +9+20 [~110 million]
• Age: 5
• Troops: 1,000,000/40,000 = 25
• Participation: +10
• Total = 181

German West Africa [Cameroon]

• Location: 8*1.125
• Tactical: 6
• Strength: 6 [Cameroon]
• Motive: +9
• Morale: -2 +3 = 1
• Population: +8
• Troops: 40,000
• Age: -5
• Participation: +10
• Multiple Fronts: (seeing as Germany itself isn't involved, the multiple fronts penalty doesn't apply
• Total: 54

Discussion

You do know that every vassal gets a -2, and then every vassal after two get and extra -2. Plus, I doubt that vassals can go on an offensive war separately from their liege. I also doubt you could field an army of a million into a country that's mostly jungle. Kameroon would also be able to field a larger army, say around 350 - 450,000

Also, why the hell are you invading? You can get cookie to verify this, but him and I were discussing the decolonization timeframe for German Africa. Basically, everything was to be released by 1955. If you guys really wanted them, I'm sure we could've worked something out, like what we did with Japan over indochina. But seriously, we'll be forced to give up our colonies in less than ten years, so what's the point?

I am that guy (talk) 04:09, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

For the glory of victory of course.

                SCRAWLAND INVICTUS || REX IMPERATOR   04:19, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

According to the moderators, the rule on the rules page applies; you are allowed to use your entire empire in a world war without the penalty. And I'm only using the older and larger ones anyway.

"I also doubt you could field an army of a million into a country that's mostly jungle."

That makes no sense, don't give me the recycled argument you give Crim each time haha. You may think Brazil, West Africa, and South Africa is "mostly Jungle", but even at a conservative peace-time value of 1% of population, like the Brazil in 2015, in 1945 that's 600,000 men. During OTL WW2 South Africa fielded 334,000 volunteers. With just those two nations alone you're already almost at 1,000,000 men, and that's not even factoring in all the other colonies, which collectively total 40-50% of Africa.

"Plus, I doubt that vassals can go on an offensive war separately from their liege"

Guy, it's not 1400 anymore. Replace "vassal" with dominion and "liege" with ally. I don't see why nations like South Africa can't participate in WW2, it wouldn't be a first.

And if you're not holding on to Cameroon that adamantly as you say, you could always surrender the West African front.

EDIT: Also at max Cameroon is only about 4,000,000 people, and you didn't even control 90% of the nation until this most recent map. I doubt you'd even have the maximum population when you only started to control the nation a few years ago. Also you never mention your colony of Cameroon really, never expanded its military or anything. Would your colony really be so patriot at that point, as to field five, ten, or even twenty percent of its population for a war?

Fritzmet (talk) 05:02, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I can sell it to you on the condition the now largely German-speaking populace is treated fairly, how's that sound? I am that guy (talk) 05:06, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

You have until later today to accept these terms. If you fail to accept in any way, the war will continue, and these terms will be included in the treaty dismantling Germany at the end of the war. Fritzmet (talk) 05:18, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

We'll agree to all portions relating to Africa and indemnities. All portions not related to Africa (Borelia, East Indies, New Rugia) cannot be agreed to, as this was a conflict specifically within Africa. I am that guy (talk) 05:23, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

^^ Agreed. This was an African front, and since Germany was sorely beaten in Africa, you all can take whatever German lands in Africa you want. Emphasis on African land. Any German lands in Borealia, Asia, or New Zealand are not up for grabs. At all. And there's a whole bunch of crap in this treaty that is unagreeable to as well. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 14:44, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

If I may say something, if German West Africa is part of Germany like New Rugia and Cuba, then if it collapses, Germany collapses. of course this only applies to areas that are part of Germany Proper. #PraiseRoosevelt.

West Africa isn't however, it's all colonies. I am that guy (talk) 18:15, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Vassal spam is still in effect, and it's clear that you should include it here. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 23:14, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Invasion of New Rugia

Brazil

• Location: -4*.75
• Tactical: 2
• Strength: 6 [Brazil] + 6 [Amazonas] + 7 [Guiana] + 6 [Polynesia] + 6 [Samoa]
• Motive: 7+5+3+3+3=4
• Morale: +3+5
• Population: +8 [~65 million]
• Age: 0
• Troops: 100,000/300,000 = 0
• Participation: +10
• Multiple Fronts: -2
• Total = 52

New Rugia

• Location: 
• Tactical: 6+6+4
• Strength: 6
• Motive: +9
• Morale: +3 = 3
• Population: +8 +2 [~85 million]
• Troops: 300,000/100,000 = 3
• Age: 0
• Participation: +10
• Multiple fronts: -8
• Total: 76.875

Discussion

You forget that not only has New Rugia been settled by non-Moari for a hundred years more than otl, but it's also a constituent state of Germany, and as such has a lot more troops and ships stationed there as part of an old program to "protect German citizens wherever in the world". I am that guy (talk) 16:04, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

1. You get the "far from war zone" because your nearest base is, well, far way.

2. No surprise bonus, after your invasion of the African colonies, you can't claim that.

3. Remember that New Rugia is a constituent territory of Germany, so the population of Germany as a whole is counted. Seeing as Germany has more than 65 million, that gives us the larger population.

4. Since New Rugia is a constituent territory, more military power is stationed in New Rugia than in colonies like Kameroon. Part of the driving force is that the isolation of New Rugia is recognized, so it has a large on-site military force.

5. Defenders advantage + Amphibious assault + attacked territory is island.

6. Germany is a democratic supporting nation, so it doesn't get the non-democratic penalty.

7. Again, Germany has a larger population.

8. Multiple fronts is self explanatory I am that guy (talk) 16:51, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

My nearest naval base is in New Zealand.

There is still a surprise bonus. After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor places like the Philippines were still taken by surprise, plus these attacks happened at the same time.

Number three is a well documented bullshit loophole lol.

Although it's kind of ironic that more isolated would equal more military presence (see the Falkland Islands War), I can acknowledge that New Rugia has a greater population probably than OTL, but not something crazy.

Germany has a monarchy. Also if you get democratic, by that logic so does all the nations on my side.

Fritzmet (talk) 16:33, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

You also specifically said in your post that this pacific attack happened after the African front. And monarchies can have democratic-supporting government, which is what Germany is. And about half of Germany's states are true republics. I am that guy (talk) 16:55, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say it happened after. Albeit I wrote it after the other int he turn, but they happened at the same time. Also half your edits aren't even right, Edge is saying as much in chat. And how did you get Sky who hasn't been here in days, and Crim of all people, to approve this? Fritzmet (talk) 16:57, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

The location not only needs to be averaged, but adjusted for the fact that I am attacking from OTL New Zealand, and Germany if participating is attacking from Europe.

Brazil should still have the surprise bonus, since the attacks were at the same time, and how exactly would New Rugia even expect an attack from Brazil.

I just checked the age of the nations would be +5 for Brazil and -3 for Germany.

Fine I'll boost the troop numbers, I was using basically only Pacific Islanders for myself.

Add the democratic bonuses to Brazil, if that's what Guy ants.

Fritzmet (talk) 17:08, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

From where in New Zealand are you attacking from? Every piece of land up until Australia is owned by either myself or Scandinavia. I am that guy (talk) 17:10, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I own some islands in the Pacific off the coast of New Zealand that are owned by New Zealand in OTL. Fritzmet (talk) 17:13, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, no. Every island off the coast until Australia or the Solomons are owned by either myself or Scandinavia, and have been for well over a century by this point. I am that guy (talk) 17:15, August 3, 2015 (UTC).

Was told to do the following by Fritz:

• Basically in the Cameroon algo remove Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe. Add Mbandaka, Centro-Africana, Congo, and Tanzânia. Then add all the ones you removed from Cameroon and add to New Rugia. And then change 100,000 soldiers to 3,500,000 also add 30 million to my side in population in New Rugia

Verify (and argue) with him. #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:43, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Same as the rhine, I have removed the Non-Nation sections of strengh until sides are clearer, which should be soon. #PraiseRoosevelt.

How does New Rugia have a population of over 80 million? New Zealand has a population of 4 million in 2015 OTL.Nathan1123 (talk) 18:26, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Since New Rugia is a constituent part of Germany, like Prussia or Hamburg, Germany's total population is counted. I am that guy (talk) 18:38, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

But as the moderators on chat already noted that loophole is henceforth banned, for the same reason why you couldn't invade Brazilian Antarctica and all forty of its citizens, only for me to claim you are attacking 100 million people. It just doesn't make practical sense.

Guy, I assume you are fighting so adamantly in this front because you believe that since New Rugia is a state of Germany, if I win I topple Germany. But I am telling you right now, I do not intend that at all. Whatever the outcome of this front, you have my word that it does not mean Germany proper is toppled, only New Rugia itself. So with that said please end this edit warring and such, and just let Edge fix the algorithm.

Again, even though New Rugia is a state of Germany, I forfeit my right to topple Germany proper with this algorithm. That said let Edge edit it, he actually fixed things that were wrong. Fritzmet (talk) 20:08, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I would just like to point out the implausibility of Germany (specifically Bavaria) getting so many troops all the way to New Zealand when Bavaria proper is being invaded by Lombardy. Surely the entire military wouldn't abandon Venezia to save some island half-way around the world. Nathan1123 (talk) 21:36, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Invasion of Brunei

Spanish East Indies

• Location: 15*1.25
• Tactical: 2+6
• Strength: 3 (M) [East Indies] + 7 [Guiana] + 7 [Cabo Verde] + 6 [Ilhas Pará] + 6 [Ilhas São Leopoldo] + 6 [Ilhas Pátria]
• Motive: 7+5+3+3+3+3=4
• Morale: +3+5
• Population: +9+20 [~13 million]
• Age: 0
• Troops: 700,000/4,000 = 175
• Participation: +10
• Multiple Fronts: -2
• Total = 290

Brunei

• Location: 8*1.125
• Tactical: 6+6
• Strength: 6 [New Rugia]
• Motive: +9
• Morale: -2 +3 = 1
• Population: +5 [~45,000]
• Troops: 4,000
• Age: 0
• Participation: +10
• Total: 53

Lombard Campaign

Lombardy

• Location: 15
• Tactical: 2+6
• Strength: 6 [Lombardy] + 6 [Brazil] + 6 [Centro-Africana] + 6 [Congo] + 6 [Sao Tome] + 6 [Walvis Bay] + 6 [Tanzânia] + 6 [Mbandaka] + 6 [Rodésia] + 6 [Barotzilândia] + 6 [Garanganja]
• Motive: 7+5=6
• Morale: +3+5
• Population: +9+2 [125 million]
• Age: 5
• Chance: 
• Troops: 6,000,000/500,000 = 12
• Participation: +10
• Multiple Fronts: -20
• Total = 123

Germany

• Location: 15
• Tactical: 6
• Strength: 6 [Germany]
• Motive: +9
• Morale: +3 +3 = 6
• Population: +8
• Chance:
• Troops: 500,000
• Age: 0
• Multiple Fronts: -10
• Participation: +10
• Total: 43

Eastern Front

Slavic League and Allies

• Location: 15
• Tactical: 2+6
• Strength: 6 [Poland] + 6 [Lithuania] + 6 [Slovakia] + 6 [Sorbia] + 6 [Kashubia]
• Motive: 6
• Morale: +3+5
• Population: +8
• Age: 5
• Chance: 
• Troops: 1,500,000/250,000 = 6
• Participation: +10
• Total = 96

Germany

• Location: 15
• Tactical: 6
• Strength: 6 [Germany]
• Motive: +9
• Morale: 3
• Population: +8+2
• Chance:
• Troops: 250,000
• Age: -5
• Multiple Fronts: -12
• Participation: +10
• Total: 42

World War II complaints

I think it's fairly obvious that algo is sadly incomplete. Only half of the fronts are listed (Lombardy, etc.), and those fronts that are listed only have half the belligerents (Japan and Emereldie in New Rugia, Britannia in the Rhine, etc.). Not to mention several implausibilities created by exaggerated populations and military strength on both sides. Therefore, I am creating this section to list complaints only. This is not the place to defend the way the algorithm currently is, but a place to simply list issues not yet addressed without any debate or discussion. I think this is a good idea, but as I'm not a mod, feel free to delete this if I'm stepping out of line. Nathan1123 (talk) 02:29, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Fronts Missing/Incomplete

• The New Rugia front is missing several nations. Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe should be added as leaders (industry level six).
• Nearly every front is incomplete because of mistakes.
• Sudafrica, Boreliea, and Algonquia need to be added in various degrees to the Rhine. Algonquia also needs to be added to India
• Lombardy. idiots. or is venice a freebee?
• Britannia should be added to the Rhine
• Poland opens a Prussian front?
• Borealian/Spanish invasion of India isn't even complete
• Japan + vassals? should be added to New Rugia

Issues within Fronts

• The New Rugia front should have 3,500,000 soldiers on the Brazil side (for now). Since it is essentially functioning as the Pacific Front at large, I am using that amount for now, since that's about the amount of Americans in the OTL Pacific War.
• Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe aren't supposed to be in the West Africa front, but rather Mbandaka, Centro-Africana, Congo, Sao Tome, Walvis Bay, and Tanzânia should be added. The West African front is done anyway, this is just an example of a naming error.
• Every front with Brazil participating should have a population of 90 million from Brazil. So the West African front should be at 115 million, and the New Rugia and Brunei front updated.
• Brazil's age in the New Rugia front should be a 5, whereas New Rugia's is -5 if alone.
• The New Rugia front should have a surprise modifier to Brazil's side. These attacks took place at the same time, plus how would New Zealand anticipate an attack from Brazil of all places.
• The locations of the New Rugia front are wrong. Brazil should have a +8 at least, since it is invading from OTL New Zealand. Additionally the other nations in the war are Pacific nations only a few hundred miles away.
• The population of New Rugia is at most 600,000, even when accounting for Germany's extra immigration. As such it's very implausible for it to raise half its population for war. It's even more implausible for Germany to send soldiers to New Rugia, not when Germany itself is at threat. That would be like France sending a large portion of its force from the border with Germany to defend Vietnam during WW2.

Discussion

• I find it extremely implausible for Brazil's African colonies to be able to send an expeditionary force halfway around the world to the far side of the Pacific, especially when all but two are landlocked.
• Again, you even said in your post that the New Rugian attack took place after the end of the African invasion, due to "breakdown of negotiations", so you've lost the element of surprise.
• You're not invading from New Zealand, because you own no land in New Zealand. I told you before, every price of island around New Zealand up until Australia or the Solomons has been owned by either Hamburg or Scandinavia for at least a century now. As a result, that means you get "far from warzone". You say "only" a few hundred miles, but you seem to forget that that's hundreds of miles across empty ocean.
• The population should be the entirety of Germany, because whenever the players main nation is involved, the main nations' population is used, even if it's in the Pacific. Everyone to Britannia, France, Spain, even Croatia have used the total population going to war in the Pacific. When Crim and I had a front of the 1790-1795 war going on in the New Zealand islands, guess what, we used our total populations, even though back then they were only colonies.

I am that guy (talk) 15:50, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

In OTL WW1 and WW2 African countries sent forces overseas, and many of those were landlocked too.

I didn't say that they attacks took place after, and despite your emphasis, the word "after" does not appear in that section of the post.

The Treaty of Midway, Treaty of Porto Vila, and various other treaties establish that Kermadec, New Zealand; Chatham, New Zealand; Norfolk, Australia, and various other territories are owned by Brazil or her allies in this war against you. So we are invading from parts of OTL New Zealand and Australia.

"every price of island around New Zealand up until Australia or the Solomons has been owned by either Hamburg or Scandinavia"

That is completely false, unless you are declaring that most of the Borealian colonies; Fiji, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, Emeraldie Tonga, Brazilian Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Samoa, etc are now owned by Scandinavia.

"You say "only" a few hundred miles, but you seem to forget that that's hundreds of miles across empty ocean."

Exactly, it's across empty ocean, making it easy to travel across by ship. Not to mention that countries in WW2 traveled thousands of miles more than this. And not to mention that the distance from my main colony to New Zealand is the distance from southern New Zealand to northern New Zealand. By your logic you should have a hard time traveling from Stewart Island in the south to Wellington.

"The population should be the entirety of Germany, because whenever the players main nation is involved, the main nations' population is used, even if it's in the Pacific."

Yeah but the point is it's implausible for Germany to get involved. As I said above it would make no sense for France to abandon the war against Germany in OTL to defend Vietnam. It would make no sense for Britain to abandon the British Isles to defend Hong Kong, etc. And if we do allow that, it would be nice if you'd allow Brazil to do the same; right now you have it so that rule only applies to you.

Also isn't it a bit ironic that you're insisting South Africa can't assist in the Pacific Front, but Germany proper can?

Fritzmet (talk) 16:41, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Without a doubt, Germany should not have naval superioriety on either New Rugia or the Rhine. the Rhine, imho, should not have naval superiorety to either side seeing as the bulk of the fighting is happening inland, but I digress. Even if it will have it, it should be for the allies for the following reasons:

• Andea has been expanding her navy since independece, so her navy isn't behind Germany by that much (if at all)
• Girbaltar would be closed to Germany, meaning the only way out of the med would be through the Suez
• Venice is being invaded, one of Bavaria major ports
• German navy is spread around the world. Even if Andea and Brazil's navies aren't enough to match the German Navy on their own (unlikely, but for the sake of argument lets say they can't), when Germany is fighting all across the world, the German navy would be spread so thin that it would be enough for Andea and Brazil to have Naval Superioriety

#PraiseRoosevelt.

To add on after discussing in chat, it's basically impossible for Germany to aid New Rugia in any way whatsoever. Germany is completely blockaded in Europe; France, Netherlands, Britain, and Andea (which alone may have a fleet comparable to Germany) is blockading the North Sea, Spain controls Gibraltar, Venice is being seized, and Guy already surrendered in Africa. So there's now way Germany could send troops to New Zealand, nor is it plausible for them to do so when Germany proper is under siege. Fritzmet (talk) 18:07, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

I own Gibraltar and Malacca. Britannia, France, and the Netherlands are all in open conflict with you. Lombardy is attacking your Mediterranean coastline. Good luck getting anywhere.

                SCRAWLAND INVICTUS || REX IMPERATOR   18:03, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

First of all Scraw, Britannia isn't at war with us, and Bavaria and Hamburg have plenty of Northern ports that we can use. Scandinavia is still firendly with us, so we can certainly use their own ports for safe usage. Also, Britannia hasn't posted in ages and hasn't declared any war on us, so that means Britannian waters are safe for us too. So yeah, Scraw, we can certainly send troops to New Rugia. - Cookie

Britannia is supposed to have declared war, but regardless you're still fairly blockaded without them. Scandinavia may be friendly with you, but there's a difference between being friendly, and actively breaking your neutrality and letting your troops march all over their borders. Also Scandinavia doesn't exactly get you much closer. The German surrender/withdraw in Africa particularly leaves the Atlantic Ocean practically unusable. And regardless it's still implausible to send troops from Germany proper when Germany is under attack itself. Fritzmet (talk) 19:29, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

• Well, for one, I'm sure Germany's Mediterranean squadrons can defeat the Lombard fleet. Anyone who wishes to challenge that may do so.

• As for Germany's fleet itself, (provided Crim or Mp hasn't boosted their fleet numbers over time) it is probably the largest and most advanced fleet. There's definitely around 35 (post-WWI) battleships and battlecruisers, along with eight carriers. It was naval building programs that helped stave off the worst of the Depression. Yes, initially the fleet would've been dispersed, but as the war dragged on, those in unthreatened areas, or those who disengaged from areas under attack (like Borneo or Africa) would concentrate in areas that are under attack, such as Germany proper or New Rugia, thereby helping attain naval superiority.

• Again, New Rugia is a part of Germany, not a separate entity. You also have to remember that Europeans have been settled there for a hundred years earlier than otl. Its population on its own would probably be around 1.5 million by this time. And given that the local economy would go to hell anyway in a situation like this, emergency conscription could add a lot more regular troops, not including Home Guard-like units of women, or those too old or too young for the regular army. You also should remember that every person there, the ethnic Germans and the native Maori alike, would be fighting for their homes against invaders.

• Fritz, no way in hell you own any island within five hundred miles of New Rugia (Norfolk Island is something like over a thousand miles away from New Zealand). I specifically said when I was colonizing the area that all islands owned by New Zealand otl are incorporated into New Rugia. The Midway treaty was drafted whilst I was away working at summer camp, with access to Internet few and far between, so I wasn't able to inform you guys then.

• As I've said several time before, New Rugia is a part of Germany, so it is involved one way or another. Therefore, Germany's entire population is counted, as it has been in every war in the pacific involving any European country, even when they had no land around.

I am that guy (talk) 20:04, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

So your navy is basically on par with Andea, Brazil, and Spain. Good luck against all of them at once and more.

New Rugia may technically be a part of Germany, but I think it's fairly obvious that for simplicity's sake when people in this discussion say Germany they are talking about Germany proper. And it's irrelevant anyway since the mods already said that loophole is banned. It makes zero sense for an attack on an island in the Pacific to mean attacking all of Germany, nor does it make any sense that toppling an island in the Pacific topples all of Germany. It works both ways, and was banned.

Also it's fairly well agreed upon on the official map that you don't own those particular islands. It wouldn't be the first time a nation claimed an area but then someone else colonized it. And regardless there's still a ton more just north that are indisputably owned by Brazil and its allies.

And regardless you said it was implausible for the Pacific states to travel "hundreds of miles of empty ocean", even though if the ocean is unprotected that should be really easy; by your own logic Japan couldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor because of all the ocean in between, and you claimed South Africa couldn't travel to New Zealand, but then you claim Germany can easily travel to New Zealand. Germany is on the other side of the planet.

Not to mention that Germany wouldn't send any forces anyway, because Germany itself is under siege. Fritzmet (talk) 20:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Which mods banned it? Scraw and Edge?

Thing is, they simply weren't claimed, some of them had settlers on them, they were incorporated into New Rugia as municipalities or part of municipalities.

You also seem to be forgeting about one small matter: logistics. You claim to be landing 3.5 million troops, the same number as what the United States (at this point in history, with twice your population) deployed to the Pacific during the entirety of WWII. On average, troopships carry 550 troops plus their equipment and supplies. In order to drop them all off at once, you would need over 6,300 troopships. No navy on earth has enough ships to properly escort them, so talk about a turkey shoot for subs and fighters. And that doesn't even mention how they're all going to deploy their troops coming landing time. If you're taking them in waves, with weeks between landings, you would have to detach ships to escort them back, or else subs pick off the unprotected troopships. But every ship you detach takes it away from the front, meaning any naval advantage would shrink with it. Put simply, landing 3.5 million troops on a single island is impossible.

I am that guy (talk) 21:22, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

If New Rugia can be part of Germany, then Indonesia and West Africa can be a part of Spain. This essentially doubles my population and puts me above you giving me a population score of +10.

                SCRAWLAND INVICTUS || REX IMPERATOR   21:35, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

You could, but you'd need a minimum population of 425 million in order to get a +10 score.

I am that guy (talk) 21:46, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

8 digit population + 2 bonus = 10

What are you talking about?

                SCRAWLAND INVICTUS || REX IMPERATOR   21:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Guy the number of soldiers is the number of the entire Pacific Front during the entire war, which is being represented here by the New Rugia algo. And by that argument, how do you plan to ship your soldiers there? If you're going to give me a hard time about the logistics of moving an army, why not look at your own troop movements. They make even less sense.

Also I should mention that you are making the argument that you weren't here for Midway and it therefore shouldn't be valid, meanwhile are declaring that Germany is in the Fourth Treaty of Chan Chan, even though Edge wasn't there for that. Fritzmet (talk) 22:01, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

@Fritz, I told you before, the troops are already there. All units have a New Rugian deployment before being rotated back to Germany, same with Kuba. Those 300,000 are those that happened to be stationed there at the time of your invasion. Also, I'm not saying the Treaty of Midway isn't valid, you can make claims to islands all you want. It's just that those islands have been claimed, settled, and politically incorporated long before you made those claims

@Scraw, my bad, I thought you were talking just about the population bonus.

I am that guy (talk) 22:10, August 4, 2015 (UTC)