Elections[]
Seems odd that they will be holding elections for the occupation government. What if the government is made up of people who want to go back to Canada? Unless of course S and S are only holding sham elections. [EDIT] I realize there might be some supporters of what S and S are doing, but Gaspe has been a part of Canada since Doomsday and as far as I can tell has shown little interest in Saguenay. Hell the last PM of Canada came from the region. Mitro 22:13, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
And the Sanguenayans probbably know that. That is why they "allowed" them to become independant. --Yankovic270 23:11, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
- A lot of what is going to happen in regards to the elections is going to directed from the constitutional convention. While the Anglo-Canadian is against the formation of the state, it has found a large amount of support among the densely Franco-Canadian communities in the center and western portions of the nation. This could have been through many methods, but easily include the fact that that region contains the only major remnant of the Franco-Canadian community within Canada, except maybe Acadia; thus, they feel alienated politically, not being properly protected by the military, etc. Think of the Slovaks in the 1930's. Also, there is a need to legitimize the government internationally, rather than having it continue to be viewed as a puppet. Major provisions in the constitution might be purposfully added in order to increase the political power of the Franco-Canadian community as well. Therefore, if it is shown that the government has popular support, Canada will have to rethink its strategy on retaking the Gaspe Peninsula (whereas before, they though they would be welcomed back with open arms.) Lahbas 01:41, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Also, the Republic of Superior does not want the "S" League to appear like they are bent on conquest, even if they are on the offensive. Saguenay had wanted to incorporate the Gaspe Peninsula into their nation, but had been pressured by Terrance Newman to instead create an independent state. Lahbas 01:48, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
I don't see this being very stable. If there is time to establish and train an occupational police force, of that size, the resistance would be much bigger. They would see the local population signing on as traitors and there would be targeted attacks towards them leading to chaos. The article makes it sound like Superior and Saguenay are liberators rather than the agressors they are.--Oerwinde 07:54, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
i'm assuming that this nation only gonna exsist for a short while, before Canada gets it act together. --HAD 09:37, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
- I think you are overestimating the amount of support S and S are going to receive from the French Canadians of the region. First the PM I reffered to, Jacques Ducharme, is a French-Canadian, so I don’t think that the French-Canadians in post-Doomsday Canada are that unrepresented in Canadian politics. Second, no matter what the populace’s feelings are about the Canadian military letting them down, the fact of the matter is they were invaded by a foreign power who is acting as an aggressor. There homes and businesses were bombed and shot at by foreign troops who are now in their backyards. If history has shown us one thing is that people do not like being invaded, even if the invader has the best intentions. I’m not saying, however, that there would not be any collaborators, but the amount you suggest is highly optimistic and implausible. Mitro 13:56, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
Police Numbers[]
I lowered the number of members in the Gaspe police. I did so because I think its way too implausible for a force to be that size already after just being created a few months ago. Also I don’t think the support for the new nation would be that high that recruitment would be so popular. Not only that but I think that just comparing it to the population of the province it seems unlikely. The OTL 2006 census for the region was around 296k. Now we can assume that would be lower in this ATL, but even a conservative estimate means that when those 24k volunteers were fully trained it would mean 20% of the population would belong to the puppet government’s military. That seems incredibly high. Even if we assume that the French Canadians are very supportive of the new regime, the OTL number of people in Quebec recognizing themselves as French was only 30% with over 60% recognizing themselves as just Canadian. Whether those numbers are different in Gaspe is unknown to me. Mitro 15:02, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
Discussion[]
What I envisioned was that S and S wanted a quick war, one that would result in their claims being recognized weeks after the beginning of the conflict. However, with the rise of the Canada First government, a quick peace became increasingly unlikely, and they had to form at least some sort of local support (at least in Superior's opinion). Also, I think the French community would be a lot larger, following an exodus of Franco-Canadians from the nuclear waste of Quebec, either to Gaspe or Aroostook (the former more), making it majority French (or at least relatively close.) The raising of Popular Forces were originally not meant as a military, but as a police force, to allow a drawdown in the number of troops required for stability. At the same time there is the problem of resistance, but this will have to remain small for two reasons. One, it is not easy for the reistance to be armed, and more likely be non-violent resistance methods. Two, the size of the Franco-Canadian community. Lahbas 19:49, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the resistance as you wrote it, but I don't think there would be strong opposition from the Franco-Canadian community, and this should be represented, or at least specified. Lahbas 19:57, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
- The size of the French-Canadian population shouldn't matter. I have said before that I think you are overestimating the number of people from that population that will support Saguenay. I don't think French-Canadians are underrepresented in this Canada as you claim. They have been a part of the Remainder provinces since the beginning. Also the Gaspe area is where Canada would have been taking the brunt of Lawrence Raiders attacks and there is some evidence that they have been supported by Saguenay before the war and now real evidence that they are working with them now. I can see the people of Gaspe not being that supportive of Saguenay because of that alliance, despite cultural ties. Also considering that they were invaded during a war that they they didn't start that is another factor that hurts S/S with the regular people.
- Not even considering those factors, the numbers you first suggestted don't make sense. Even if the area did receive refugees, many would die due to radiation, disease and famine, and I don't have a good estimate for that. Also there is only so much room any one geogrpahic area can hold before it becomes difficult to support human life. That all being considered, you have nearly 1 out of ever 5 people of this nation belonging (or will be belonging) to a police force that was just started a couple of months ago.
- Also I don't see why there wouldn't be armed resistance. It is possible that there are remnants of Canadian military units in the area that were cut off and fled to more rural areas. Also Canadian agents/spies/etc. could be inflatrating the area and supplying supporters with weapons. Finally I don't see any reason why the local populace doesn't have some small arms that they can use. That all being said its not that difficult to make some types of bombs. Not all resistance has to be bands of rebels in the woods. Mitro 20:07, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
- You have some valid points, I agree. I know that the militia was overestimated, and support of the occupation forces should be moot, there should be resistance, etc. However the resistance cannot be that strong, as there likely will be controls on weapons and ammunition, and Canadian success of supplying them is, or should be, low. The Republic of St. Lawrence is meant to build up support within the Franco-Canadian community, not the Anglo-Canadian, though right now it is a diplomatic ruse (to force Canada to come to terms or risk an insurgency among the Republic's supporters once it is definately established with significant support among the locals.) Lahbas 20:45, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry I haven't been around much, I've been busy. Anyway there will obviously be some collaborators. This seems to me to be similar to Vichy France, in most respects. I agree that it would be hard to arm the resistance, however it could be that it is easier to buy guns in the post-Doomsday Canada, especially in the Gaspe region which was a popular target of raids from the Lawrence Raiders. I'm not saying that they would buy guns now, but they would have guns from before the invasion, though they would be of inferior quality to the S/S weapons. And as Mitro said, they could try to make bombs. By the way where did you get the flag and coat of arms for St. Lawrence? --DarthEinstein 22:48, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
- Again, I have to agree. In regards to the flag, I wanted something that was native to the region. However, there was nothing else other than the flag of Quebec. Therefore, using an idea I got from Harry Turtledove, I switched the two colors from the flag, and voila. Lahbas 00:45, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I just realised that for the flag (I read Turtledove too), but what about the coat of arms? It has a Star of David and the name Jehovah on it, why? I know some Latin, but I'm not quite sure what it says. Could you tell me? --DarthEinstein 01:00, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
- I am not sure how to do this, so bear with me. Anglo-Canadians, most members of the Canada First Party, set up an insurgency against the occupation forces and the Republic of St. Lawrence under some "symbolic" name. However, they view the Franco-Canadian community as aiding, rather than resisting, the occupation. This is largely because of they prominent lack of action (though not complete) on the part of the Franco-Canadian community, participation in the "Milice Populaire" by Franco-Canadian nationalists, and cultural connections to the people to Saguenay. As a result, they also commit domestic terrorism against Franco-Canadian communities, though this creates a division among the insurgent forces themselves. At the same time, this creates problems for the Canadians. The ties to the Canada First Party in regards to the insurgents, especially those committed domestic terrorism, legitimizes the claims of the "S-S" League of the CFP being a terrorist orginisation. At the same time, those actions committed by the more radical wing of the insurgency would drive the Franco-Canadian community more in support of the Republic of St. Lawrence, feeling they have been betrayed by the Canadians (they would still hold animosity toward Saguenay and Superior however). Lahbas 16:23, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
Well? Lahbas 05:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think the Canada First party would support terrorism especially against the Franco-Canadian communities. The party philosophy is for Canada to look out for itself. Supporting divisions in its population goes against what the party stands for. Resistance action would largely be joint french and english. --Oerwinde 08:51, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the Virginians would recognize St Lawrence as an independant nation. It is because Virginia has supported the S&S Leauge, despite an incapability to officially enter on there side of the war. --Yankovic270 05:14, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
Canonization[]
Are there any plans for this article to be taken off from the Proposal list? This page been here for almost a year; I think thats long enough for a page to be decided to be canonized or not.Arstarpool 19:06, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
I enthusastically support this article being graduated.
Yankovic270 20:43, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
Independence[]
Why on earth is this is thing listed as being independent? Given the "white peace" result of the war, wouldn't it have been returned to Canada?
Lordganon 06:00, September 27, 2010 (UTC)