Talk: Republic of Superior Air Force (1983: Doomsday)

Aircraft

Holy crap where did you get all those aircraft? I admit I didn't go all out on research, but most of the air bases in Michigan were in the south. You have like 900 helicopters! Victoria is the major air power of the west coast and has like maybe a 6th of those numbers.--Oerwinde 09:22, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

the numbers do seem excessive. where would they get these aircraft? {C --HAD 11:01, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, this is way too optimistic. Mitro 15:04, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

are there any ANG, non SAC USAF bases in Superion territory? any at all? {C --HAD 16:27, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yes the K. I. Sawyer Air Force base, but it was destroyed on DD. That being said other air bases in the region would also be destroyed as well. Though there might be some national guard bases that make it, I doubt they would all contain the number of planes mentioned in the article. Also there is the question of spare parts and the gas to supply these vehicles. Fighter jets are gas guzzlers and I doubt Superior has the supplies to keep these going. Mitro 18:06, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Another thing to consider would be when the Soviets attacked North America on Doomsday, the SOP called for the detonation of a nuclear weapon, approximately 20 megatons, in the upper atmosphere. The massive EMP would have destroyed or heavily damaged most electronic equipment, including the avionics of planes and helicopters in the US. The only exception would possibility have been aircraft in some kind of protected or shielded bunker and even then there would be some damage. This said, a quantity of aircraft could be fixed over time if you had techs and engineers skilled in the trade and spare parts to work from which were undamaged. However, even 26 years out from DDay, it seems improbable a single survivor nation in North America would be able to accomplish the feat of having over 800 planes and helicopters, let alone where all these aircraft could even be found. I could see maybe a dozen or so, but no more. And I would seriously doubt anyone; especially ANZUS would be selling them to anyone in North America.--Fxgentleman 18:27, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Most were built in the interum period from 2001-2008, though the helicopters were from 1992 on. Basically surviving models were taken apart for referance, and then replicated in production centers in Mackinaw City or Maruqette. Also, I believe that I have explained in the main page that most vehicles in the Republic of Superior run on bio-diseal (damn, I need spellcheck!), though I could be wrong. Also, since mobility is air-based, they require air superiority, and it would become a priority to develop a powerful air arm. Lahbas 20:51, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

It has only been in the 21st century that a jet has been able to fly completely on biodeisel. I find it hard to believe that a post-apoc survivor state centered on UP Michigan could do the same thing. Mitro 23:21, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

They had been concentrating on that objective for the last 25 years, since there is actually a dearth of oil veins available in that area (some, but not enough) as a result, the military had to "go green" before its own oil supplies ran out. Similar transitions were made for the Air Force, though a successful method has yet to be developed for the Navy. It took 9 years of research before a suitable enginge that ran on bio-fuel was made, from 1989-1998, and another 3 years of testing before it was approved. Lahbas 01:40, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

For such a program they would need a large institutional investor and the Superior governemnt could not possibly support such a program while trying to feed its population, deal with refugees/brigands and nation-build around the Great Lakes. It is way too optimistic for Superior to do everything you have been saying they are doing while being able to maintain such a large air force. Mitro 02:27, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Which is why I place the period after the "dark age", and during the economic boom in Mackinaw City. Also, it wasn't as if they had a choice, it was a absolute need for the air arm. The military knew that oil reserves could not support the military at the current rate. Vehicles were the first to be converted, but the military opted for a more mobile approach in the form of helicopters (which is why there are so many, having replaced the many trucks which have since been put into civilian service). They would succeed in using a vehicular model, while unefficent, in 1989, achieving an independent model in 1990. They then moved onto an aircraft model, which took much longer to develop. However, these were being developed purely by the military (all military companies having been set up by the government) and did not require the same contracting costs you see in regards to the American system (where a single independent comapny is often asked to develop anything, regardless of the cost). Defense Spending was used by the military to fund the project. We have had the discussion over how independent the military is from the government, and the reality is they are under the control of the President, not Congress. However, this has so far not presented any problems. If you want, when I finally look into the history of the military, I can include that generals have often strong-armed senators for funding in the military at the expense of more ambitious social programs (this has become less prevelant with the Republican Revolution, with Republicans often supporting the military). Lahbas 02:53, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

i'd expect them to have about 20 F-16's, at best. maybe a dozen A-10's. {C no B-52's or anything. --HAD 09:41, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Still even given increased production the numbers you have listed here are absurd. The helicopters listed in the superior air force outnumbers the real world Russian air force by a factor of nearly 4 to 1. Your air force is larger than OTL Swedish and German air forces put together. And only one half of a nuked US state is capable of doing this? I agree with everyone else, this is way too optimistic.--ShutUpNavi 20:27, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

What Superior has done over the years is focus on "Land through Air", a doctrine which allows rapid movement, while only having to worry about the weather conditions. As a result, troop transports, except those like the HUMVEE, have been retired from active service and dispersed among the population. I will downsize all the numbers however after additional research. Lahbas 00:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

A concept that only works with sufficent Helicopters. which Superior couldn't have. i mean with these numbers are ridiculous. --HAD 10:56, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Comparing the Superior AF to OTL nations with a similar population size, most of those nations operate 5-95 aircraft in their air force. Mitro 18:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

forgive me for acting autoctratically, but something had to be dome about those numbers. --HAD 16:07, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

In 1983 the Air National Guard had a Squadron of RF-4 reconiscance jets flying out of Duluth IAP. Though not in Superior per sae, The Superior govenment would have likley spend considerable effort to secure such a valuable resource. It would not take an an aeronautical genius to convert the RF-4, F-4 varient into something with leithal potental. However, I think the largest compnant of a Superior Air Force would be conscripted small private arcraft used for light transport, patrol, scouting, and perhaps light attack/ground support. ~anon

Duluth was nuked. Lordganon 07:08, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

I have this old 1980 vintage air forces book that shows Duluth housing a squadron from Aerospace Defence Command - 18 F-106s in 1979, assume replaced by F-16s by 1983) - which was nuked in canon.

If you are charitable, you could assume that some F-16s (say half or so) from Duluth scrambled in time before it was hit, given that this was an ADC base and would likely be tasked with rapid response. These would then need to land at a civilian field elsewhere. But, spare parts would be an issue. Through cannibalization for spare parts over the last 28 years, you'd be lucky to have 3-4 still flying by 2011.

Cessna O-2 Skymaster

More likely, Superior would be capable of building militarized versions of civilian aircraft, like the Cessna O-2 Skymaster (see picture), which did sterling service in Vietnam, or a hot-rod like the OV-10 Bronco.

Thebaron88 18:39, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

See statement in response to the other section.

And, civilian craft conversions? Trust me when I say there is absolutely no reason for that. ;)

Lordganon 04:48, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

There was a USAF Base

I did some research on Wikipedia there was a couple of USAF Bases on Superier Territery in 1983 and a NORAD base but no nukes so it would not have been a Soviet target--Owen1983 14:13, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It would have been, and was in this TL, a Soviet target. Not having nukes doesn't save a place from being a Soviet target. Mitro 15:46, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I dont think the Soviets would bother bombing a base with ho nukes I think they would see Bases like Larwence AFB who had 7 nukes a greater threat--Owen1983 16:19, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

The base in Superior was attached to the SAC, it would be a target. Mitro 18:58, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Owen, the Superior article specifically states that K.I. Sawyer AFB was hit.--BrianD 21:11, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Owen, list the other bases please. I only found one, so I would be interested in seeing what else you found. Lahbas 00:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

the other two ar Sawyer AFB and Kinross AFB these would have existed at the time of DD but the RS government might have bult more since DD --Owen1983 18:30, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I have this old 1980 vintage "Air Forces of the World" book that lists the following in or adjacent to Superior Territory:

• K I Sawyer AFB (SAC - B-52s) - nuked in canon
• Wurtsmith AFB (SAC - B-52s) - SE of Mackinaw City on shore of Lake Huron, assume it is nuked?
• Duluth IAP - Aerospace Defence Command - 18 F-106s in 1979, assume replaced by F-16s by 1983) - nuked in canon

You could assume that some F-16s (say half or so) from Duluth scrambled in time before it was hit, given that this was an ADC base and would likely be tasked with rapid response. These would then need to land at a civilian field elsewhere. But, spare parts would be an issue. Through cannibalization for spare parts over the last 28 years, you'd be lucky to have 3-4 still flying by 2011.

No idea where the A-10s and C-5As are coming from.

Michigan Air National Guard base was down near Detroit, so I assume it is gone.

Thebaron88 18:22, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Wurtsmith was nuked. And, I want to say as well, with regards to Owen's comments, that Kinross AFB was inactivated in 1977.

Again, EMP damage.

Really, you can ignore the content of this article. I'm in the process of prepping a technical, etc. for plausible planes to be added, etc.

Lordganon 04:45, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bush Planes

Bush planes, such as the DHC Otter, DHC Twin Otter, and Noorduyn Norseman (and their pilots) would have been very common in this region (at least in the Soo and other parts of NW Ontario - don't know about Michigan) in 1983. These tough old birds are rugged and mechanically simple, dating back to the 1950s, and in OTL are still flying today.Thebaron88 19:45, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Again, you exaggerate things. Nor are they as "common" as you believe.

Fuel and parts, for starters, are limited.

The Twin Otters would be broken by the EMP.

The Norsemen had not been produced in more than 20 years by DD. The only ones still in existence today are museum pieces, something which was largely true at DD too. Simply put, they are not an option.

Virtually any Otter that was upgraded at all - heck, even kept to standards in many cases - is toast. A few survivors - and maybe, copies of them - may be around.

Lordganon 01:09, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Aircraft

I cannot find any evidence that there were F-16's in the territory Superior controls. Toledo has F-16's at the airport, but unless the Confederation sold them to Superior, I don't think they would posses these aircraft.

TBH I think it would more than likely posses a few jet trainers and propeller driven aircraft. Daeseunglim (talk)

As noted earlier on this page, you can ignore most of this article. A new version is in the works. Lordganon (talk) 08:09, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

Superior Air Force Aircraft

I did some sleuthing online and found that the following aircraft were present in Superior proper around Doomsday.

• KI Sawyer Air Force Base
  • B-52 Bombers (unlikely to be available to Superior post-Doomsday, all aircraft were likely deployed on Doomsday and destroyed over the USSR, I would say it is safe to assume they did not retain any aircraft)
  • KC-135 Stratotanker (unlikely to be available to Superior post-Doomsday, all aircraft were likely deployed on Doomsday and destroyed by the Soviet Air Force or electromagnetic pulses while holding to refuel American bombers returning from the Soviet Union; best case scenario maybe one or two aircraft survived, by present day I doubt any aircraft are functional)
  • F-106 Delta Dart Interceptor (likely to have been deployed on Doomsday to intercept Russian strategic bombers en-route over Canada, possibly a handful survived; there was one squadron stationed: USAF Squadrons have 12-18 aircraft for fighter squadrons, so say they picked up 6 aircraft immediately after; by present day I would say they likely only have one or two left in flyable condition best case scenario)

There are a few radar posts and command centers, namely Calumet Air Force Station, however these did not operate aircraft from them and it appears Calumet may have actually only served as a communication hub versus a radar station by 1983, it seems the Air Force removed all the radar stations by the late 1970’s.

It is also possible that KI Sawyer picked up surviving interceptors and fighters from nearby states and Canada that survived Doomsday but whose bases were destroyed.

Within reasonable distance to Superior, there are also the following bases:

• Duluth Air National Guard Base (Duluth, MN)
  • Either the RF-4C Phantom II or the F-4D Phantom II (Likely deployed on Doomsday for air defense, uncertain if any would survive, but it is possible maybe again, a few survived and Superior could have retained a few aircraft)
• Wold-Chamberlain Field (Minneapolis/Saint Paul, MN)
  • C-130A Hercules Heavy Lift Aircraft (Unlikely to have been deployed on Doomsday, however they are in a nuclear target, although all air assets were likely scattered to avoid wholesale destruction, so maybe Superior obtained one or two)
• Truax Field Air National Guard Base (Madison, WI)
  • A-10 Warthog Attack (Unlikely to have been deployed on Doomsday, however time and parts would take their toll, one squadron at the base, so maybe Superior was able to salvage a few aircraft?)
• General Mitchell Air National Guard Base (Milwaukee, WI)
  • KC-135A Stratotankers (see my above comments about the other tankers, I think the same stands to reason here)

However Superior would lack the ability to properly maintain all aircraft, so I don’t know how realistic it would be for the nation to operate any of these aircraft by 2021 in the ATL. It would need to obtain parts from a more industrialized nation or possibly scrap together a few that are not nearly as functional as pre-Doomsday.

Daeseunglim (talk) 12:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)