Talk: Republic of West Texas (1983: Doomsday)

West Texas development[]

This is still very much a work in progress, but I like the idea of survivor states like West Texas that are being discovered as the other survivor states gain the means and time to more easily explore their areas.

The other main change I made was to restore electricity, in some form, to the state; I don't think that people would go long without it if they could restore the power grid. There may be elements of the old West in the culture, but they do have their power.

Another element I want to explore is the government's control over the people, based out of a desire to stay self-sufficient and to themselves, especially after being rejected by Mexico back in 1985. Like Vermont, West Texas knew that if anyone was out there it couldn't stay isolated forever, so that control eventually would loosen - and the leaders decided to roll with it rather than resist it and risk some sort of uprising from the youth.

And, my reference to high school football and Periman-Lee rivalry is not only a shout out to Friday Night Lights, but also recognition of how deeply ingrained football is in Texas and how, once things got to a level of normalcy, people would look to restore their regular traditions, like high school football--BrianD 01:01, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

You should expand it into parts of New Mexico as well, rather than leave it simply in Texas. However, unless I see a map of what you are considering for borders, I cannot be sure. Lahbas 03:31, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

I had Carlsbad and Hobbs, New Mexico as two of the cities sending representatives to sign the constitution, so the state covers at least that portion of old New Mexico. As far as a map goes, is there a guide somewhere for creating maps in wiki?--BrianD 03:41, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

A rough written guide - for your and my benefit both - to the West Texas borders is

East along Interstate 10, from Van Horn to Sonora
North to Colorado City and Snyder
West through Lamesa, Seminole, Hobbs and Artesia
South through Carlsbad, down to Pecos and Van Horn.

I'll put together a map once I figure out the process for doing so.--BrianD 03:58, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. where's the capital?. --HAD 12:44, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Midland.--BrianD 14:14, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

this is a rough boarder map I've made based off of the cities you listed--GOPZACK 20:32, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, GOPZACK. You're on target (although people are going to want to avoid San Angelo since it got hit)--BrianD 20:53, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Your very welcome one thing about San Angelo is that it may have been hit with a weaker nuke because it is not a primary target and the radiation levels may have gone down leading to expansion eastward toward the outskirts of San Angelo--GOPZACK 21:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

That obviously would have happened recently.--BrianD 21:58, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Of course but this map theoretically should reflect the border as it currently stands--GOPZACK 22:04, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

I'll add the Texas state flag and Republic of Texas state seal sometime tonight or tomorrow, when I get a few minutes. --BrianD 22:43, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

does any one know how to do maps like the ones one the Nordic Union page or the Celtic Alliance one? --HAD 10:17, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

sorry, I don't. I need help on maps myself!--BrianD 16:49, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I have established not only the capital as Midland but also Midland as the region's largest city. This is because in the real world, Midland's population is 106,000, while Odessa is 98,000. And, I picked the independence date as July 4, 1984, because the leaders wanted to tie their existence to the United States, in recognition that they had to fend for themselves w/o federal assistance, but with the hope that somehow the U.S. would reconstitute themselves. July 4 is to remember where they came from and why they set up their republic.--BrianD 16:49, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Make sure you're basing population on 1983 numbers to start with -- you don't want to base it on today's numbers. Also, remember that capitals aren't necessarily the largest city in the state. Look at Springfield, IL and Jefferson City, MO -- tiny compared to other cities in the state. Louisiannan 16:53, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Louisiannan. I'm assuming that the region's population swelled because of refugees. I did switch the largest city back to Odessa, because of these links

Seems like Odessa and Midland are neck and neck population wise in our world, and that probably would also be the case in this timeline.--BrianD 17:13, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

I fleshed out the standoff with Mexico, and why the earthquake and long dormant anger toward the West Texans for America's perceived role in the destruction of the border states, caused relations to go south between the two sides and why that would have led leaders to a policy of extreme isolationism. I also ditched the social norms subsection (could NOT make it work), and added arts and national landmarks, which better fits the page. I am also looking for feedback on the lack of a broadcasting industry and my explanation involving EMPs, and whether that is truly realistic or not. Maybe I should give them radio after all???--BrianD 03:53, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

EMP is only a major factor with high alitude detonations. --HAD 12:58, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

You know, I never have seen anything in canon regarding the Soviets exploding a device high above North America (a scenario which you may recall was used in The Day After movie). Other countries have apparently used radio from early on, so I'll need to rewrite appropriately. Also, I discovered on the Wikipedia Texas page that the state supplies most of its own electricity. I'll need to revise the sections regarding electricity, and use of telegraph and Pony Express, as well.--BrianD 14:32, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I kind of want a simpler map than the one currently on the page. I can't really tell where this map is, not like the maps on the Nords and the Celts. Those maps you don't need full size to tell the location. --Yankovic270 15:34, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

How about this?

--BrianD 16:13, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Copyright info for map, in case it's necessary: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Texas_2002.jpg --BrianD 16:21, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Better, but it has little distinction between the borders of West Texas and the roads. Can you please shade in West Texas territory, as the borders do not stand out. It looks like they are roads, as the red they are undoubtably done in blends in with the colour used for the roads. That is the only comment I have on it. It is otherwise much better. --Yankovic270 16:23, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do.--BrianD 21:43, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

I've rewritten the article, allowing for limited, unofficial contact with Dinetah, Deseret and Colorado over the years. I don't know who wrote Dinetah, and I don't want to violate canon, but given that Dinetah includes northwestern New Mexico and West Texas southwestern New Mexico, I can't imagine the two nations NOT having met each other early on. I also took out the part about the kids discovering the NAU and Dinetah scouts.--BrianD 21:43, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

I was looking over your page and noted two discrepancies in your early years section you may want to address. If I understand the timeline correctly, the Soviets began launching about 3:40-3:45 AM Moscow time on Monday, September 26, which would be about 7:45 PM CST time, not 3:40 PM, September 25. Also, since it was a Sunday, soap operas would not have been airing. However, many people might have been watching the Emmy Awards which aired that night beginning at 8 PM EST. Otherwise, it appears interesting. --Fxgentleman 17:29, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

I misjudged the timeline; I'll go back now and make the fix. Thanks, fxgentleman! I'm also having trouble, after re-reading the timeline page, with how to reconcile my proposal with the timeline in regards to electricity and radio/TV. Not so much that they have electricity and radio today; I guess my question is how soon they could have restored the power grid (given that Texas supplies much of its own electricity), and if they would have even had the means to mass-produce or repair TV sets. I'm thinking radios would be much easier to repair and produce; I could be wrong about that, too. I'll leave that alone until I get further clarification.--BrianD 18:26, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

'm done with the article, although I would like for folks to review it to make sure there are no conflicts with canon, particularly in regards to Mexico and Dinetah.--BrianD 21:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

This is my attempt at drawing more defined borders; I cannot find a generic 50-state map of the US on wikimedia, and I want to see how this map looks on the West Texas page. The blue area represents the official borders of West Texas, the red area the area on the map it claims (it claims the entire state of old Texas, in fact)--BrianD 04:08, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, I added in the map. If it doesn't work, let me know.--BrianD 22:32, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on Mike Conaway mentions that he is a long-time friend and associate of George W. Bush, whom Mitro established is alive in this timeline. There may be some future possibilities here in regards to the two men and the timeline.--BrianD 00:04, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Western US Govt Reformation[]

The only thing that I can think falls into this category is the Municipal States of the Pacific. Utah/Dinetah are in it for themselves at present, because the only people to ally with (outside of the West Texans) don't look too friendly. Louisiannan 16:26, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

That was a reference to the U.S. provisional government of the North American Union, which as best I understand timeline history and canon has disputes with Utah (and vice versa) over territory, but relations between the two sides are not hostile.--BrianD 16:31, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps one day in the future the United States could be reformed. Consider this, do to regional difference the survivor nations won't want one president because they believe there can no longer be one president of the United States due to being so isolated fro such a long time. Perhaps each survivor Nation would vote for their own individual President that they could send to a capital (to be determined) where these Presidents would convene to work on policy decisions while a second body perhaps something along the lines of "The House of Representatives" which would work much like the US House of old. Just a thought. --GOPZACK 22:22, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

In this timeline, I would think a bonafide reformation of the United States would be a long way off. As you know, there is a group of American refugees in Australia (the CRUSA) who would love to see the U.S. reformed. I'd imagine it would be the first group to spark any serious talk of U.S. reformation. However, what we don't know is how many people in the former U.S. would be happy to restart the USA and how many would rather keep the independent nation states as they currently are. And, another question you need to ask is can any one government manage and govern what we know of in North America, much less the areas we don't know about (and you can't presume that if you haven't heard from it yet, that nobody's there).

I'm just a rookie here, but IMO, any move to bring about the reformation of the United States of America is, in this timeline, very, very premature. Best to set the seeds for such a reformation 20, 30 years down the road.--BrianD 22:58, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

And another thing: if the United States is ever reformed in this timeline, its governmental structure is going to look at the very least very close to what it was in 1983. No League of Presidents running the executive branch, and the Senate and House both comprise the legislative branch.--BrianD 04:32, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

Oh for sure it's just a thought for sometime in the future.--GOPZACK 23:20, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

State seal[]

W/o benefit of having Photoshop, I'm going to add the icon for the old Republic of Texas on that (former) nation's Wikipedia page. What would be the coding I use to place it next to the flag in the info box?--BrianD 02:55, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

The Bushes[]

The George H W Bush page says that his son W survived in Mexico City, not Texas. As far as I'm concerned either one is OK, but it has to be one or the other. Benkarnell 04:16, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

You're correct. I had no intention of establishing W in West Texas any time between 1983 and today in the timeline. However, W did spend part of his childhood in Midland, so that's one connection to the Republic. The other connection W has in this timeline is his friendship with Mike Conaway pre-Doomsday, and Conaway's status as the CFO of Bush's Arbusto Energy 1981-1986 (or 81-83 in 1983:DD). W could want to move to West Texas, but he may be perfectly content with business or politics or whatever he's doing in Mexico City.--BrianD 04:25, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

From the Lincoln talk page:

W, I believe, in this timeline is a businessman in Mexico City (Mitro can correct me on this). He does know Conaway pre-DD, both in business and from growing up together as kids in Midland. I see W as playing a role in helping mend fences between Mexico and West Texas, as well as helping establish trade. As far as politics? If this wiki is still around in 2014...--BrianD 15:21, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Well I did write in the Bush article that he went with his father to Australia when Bush Sr. stopped by in Mexico to negotiate the acceptance of American refugees into the nation. However I see no reason why he wouldn’t go back to Mexico. Mitro 15:27, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Oh: I thought that W lived in Mexico City. From what I understand there's a significant American refugee population in Mexico in TTL, and I could easily see W as being a leader of sorts amongst the American contingent there. As a businessman, there's no reason he couldn't regularly travel between Mexico and Australia. My immediate scenario for W involves he, and other Americans in the country, convincing Mexican leaders that there is no reason to cut off relations w/West Texas; it didn't start the war, America didn't start the war (despite the feelings amongst some Mexican military leaders in '85). So, it's time to rebuild ties. Also, W would probably like to do business in Midland, and some Americans (and Mexicans) might want to settle there, whether for personal or business reasons. And, as this is the Lincoln talk page, Conaway is going to push for closer relations with all the NAU states, and Lincoln, since it's in the general area. --BrianD 15:45, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

I would see W being the leader of CRUSA during this time, while also being an.......um........"non-govermental" diplomat Lahbas 03:26, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

W's potential in TTL is interesting. In OTL, wasn't he pushed into politics by his parents?--BrianD 03:38, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

No, that was his own initiative, though it took him some time to come back after his '78 defeat. Lahbas 04:14, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Lets see, this is what I have worked out so far.........

George W. Bush - Alive - In Midland, Texas during Doomsday, which I assume has not been hit

John Ellis Bush - In Miami, Florida during Doomsday, which was hit on Doosmday. Could have made it out by boat to the Bahamas.

Neil Mallon Bush - In Denver, Colorado during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely dead.

Marvin Pierce Bush - In Ft. Worth, Texas during Doomsday, which was hit. May be dead or alive.

Dorothy Bush Koch - In Boston, Massachusetts during Doosmday attending college, which was hit. Likely dead.

Nancy Walker Bush Ellis - In Milton, Massachusetts during Doomsday. Likely dead.

William Henry Trotter Bush - In St. Louis, Missouri during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely Dead

Jonathan James Bush - Unsure (May have been in New Haven, Conneticut, in which case he likely would be dead, or New Haven, Maine, where he would likely be alive)

William Hal Bush
Jonathan S. Bush

Dorothy Walker Bush - In Greenwich, Conneticut during Doomsday. Almost assuredly dead

It actually made me extremely upset to make this list Lahbas 04:14, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

It is a bummer, to read person after person not make it...Midland, indeed, was not hit. Mitro, as the custodian for the Bushes TTL, established that GW and his family escaped, though I don't remember Mitro saying where W was. I would assume if he was in Midland, W fled to Texas? That would be an interesting story to write...--BrianD 04:22, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Revised map[]

Texas counties map2 — West Texas claims entire state; obviously East Texas (outlined in grey) complicates that! Territory under W. Texas control is in red

New Mexico counties map — Portion in red considered to be West Texas territory; remainder belongs to Dinetah or is considered unincorporated by both nations

Long term plans for West Texas[]

Explore possible reunification with east Texas, and ramifications of such a union on the combined country and region. How much of the former state could it actually control?

West Texas make amends with Mexico - Conaway/Mexican President summit somewhere in January 2010, perhaps in Dinetah? Midland? Mexica?

West Texas quietly has been exploring Brownsville/South Padre Island region since November, for use as a port...in anticipation of trade with Mexico and other Central American and Caribbean countries

Congress is expected to vote on formalizing San Angelo and Waco's territorial status when it reconvenes in January 2010.

George W. Bush - negotiator, Mexican ambassador to West Texas

Possible incentives for former Americans to move back to West Texas...including W

Possible conflict of some kind with Dinetah - but over what, and why? This isn't an RPG...if there's a conflict there needs to be a reason why, and in any case ultimately West Texas and Dinetah should be allies

Join Dixie Alliance or North American Union? (this is at least a year off, IMO)--BrianD 05:30, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

It is strange that such a prominent article has gone over a year with no comments. With the most recent change, though, I noticed that the map for the "location of West Texas" map shows the whole of the proposed (and expected) reunified Texas. I know that the government of West Texas origninally 'claimed' the whole state (though taking the name "West" Texas), but the map as it now appears in the article is misleading. As an article on the wiki, the map should at least show boundaries for "under present jurisdiction" or something. SouthWriter 16:56, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

No misinformation intended. I'll fix it when I can get around to it, and find a Mac-compatible photo editor. Life's kept me away from the Wiki for quite awhile.BrianD 00:13, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Split[]

The article is getting to the size where you can start noticing a lag when you try to edit it. I suggest we split one of the subsections into its own article and leave a small paragraph summarizing what the new article will say. Is there any particular section you think could stand on its own as a seperate article? Mitro 03:17, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Government and politics, or culture. I'm not in the position right now to create the new article; I can do so in a few hours. --BrianD 03:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Let's make it government and politics. --BrianD 03:27, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I found a few minutes to create the article. I still may do another for West Texas Culture later on. Thanks for the suggestion, Mitro.--BrianD 03:32, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Population[]

With the discussion at the NAU page in mind, I am wondering if the 842,000+ figure I've listed for West Texas is too low. Thoughts?

Background on Mexico/West Texas split[]

(Taken from the main talk page for 1983: DD)

That was the government, Darth. The two peoples never had any problem with each other. Although I never really fleshed it out, the chaos in Mexico following the Mexico City earthquake, combined with anti-American sentiment among some influential Mexican military leaders, led Mexico to pull away from West Texas. The military leaders were angry over what they saw as the "forced" abandonment of their territory, and deaths of some of their people, as a result of the "American" war. They managed to convince enough of the other military and government leaders that West Texas would probably die off sooner than later, and mexico needed to tend to its affairs rather than those of a dying nation. Although the military enforced the 'ban' on West Texas, many people, who had relatives on either side of the Rio Grande, found ways to evade the Mexican guards (West Texas looked the other way). West Texas leaders realized that officially they could say 'no relations with Mexico', but that actually enforcing it among its own people would be impossible. Therefore the official position on isolationism in regards to politics and trade, while looking the other way in regards to informal meetings between people. In short, the people wanted to get out there long before their government would let them. --BrianD 20:29, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

New map of former USA and Canada: [[File:USACanada83.png]][]

i created a new map to paste in there all new norther america nation, because we know limit inter brasil-venezuela, but what is the fontier canada-superior? where is easter texas? delmarva and virgina are in the same place? Dineta have sea cost? who of them have contact to great mexican republic? i paste North American Union in blue, around whyomyn, add your country and upload a new version of that file, i was count 23 entities in former USA and Canada, where?--Fero 01:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Assiniboia has most of Manitoba, except for the Hudson Bay coast. Virginia has a good chunk of Southeast Ohio, most of Virginia, all of West Virginia and all of Maryland not under Delmarva control. And Lincoln has all of Nebraska not under NAU control. --Yankovic270 01:32, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

okey, you can paint the map to we all read that easyly and clearly--Fero 02:24, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

look this, is relevant--Fero 02:53, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

You can look at the map on the West Texas page for the borders of east and west Texas, relative to the former TTL (current OTL) state of Texas. If I can find a free equivalent of MS Paint for Mac OS X, I'll add Texas/Vermont to the map.--BrianD 04:49, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Military[]

I neglected this section, but now I am wondering what kind of military West Texas would have been able to develop post-Doomsday, after the split with Mexico, during the 'black market' era and in the past year. Military is not my forte. --BrianD 00:36, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

i'll give it a shot. HAD 13:48, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

HAD, thanks! I'm looking forward to what you come up with. The military would have had to been able to be strong enough to keep the peace in the country, and fight off random warlords, smugglers, survivalists or someone like the Navajo Nation. BrianD 16:47, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

one thing i have noticed is that OTL oil rich nations almost always have are powerful militaries. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pre-revolutionary Iran (and to a lesser extant, post revolutionary as well) Iraq pre gulf war, etc. they used the money from oil revenue to fund militaries to protect that revenue. HAD 18:35, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Superhighway?[]

I don't know how useful a highway would be - I know that in Utah, even with some level of gasoline production, all personal vehicles have been nationalized, and people travel by horse and buggy or by train for the longer distances - life is much, much, much more local *there* than *here*. Louisiannan 21:38, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I neglected to mention how the highway was to be used - mainly for economic (such as trucks transporting goods across the eventually-to-be-united single republic of Texas), government and military purposes. It could be used for civilian purposes as well, as private vehicles are gradually reintroduced back into the population. West Texas put everyone on public transportation, too. BrianD 18:49, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Revisionist history[]

I cannot make the revised history of Texas idea work right now. But SouthWriter's contention that the two Texases should have united by now in TTL continues to stick with me.

I wrote the isolationism of West Texas mainly to try to reflect why Texas was not a factor in North America when I came to this wiki about a year ago. From reading the timeline, and the reactions of the various editors here, it seemed that NO ONE was left alive in the United States. This affected West Texas and Vermont, and isolationism seemed to me to be the easiest and most rational way to keep these nations hidden from the rest of the world.

I'm not sure about that now. I've already revised Vermont to erase the isolationism, and right now I believe West Texas would perhaps not only be the most advanced nation state in former Texas, it also would have some type of ongoing relations with Mexico and other Caribbean and regional nations. Like Dinetah, and perhaps Utah and Colorado from the NAU. I also can't see north and south Texas as totally being a black hole of radioactive death (hence to-be-written proposals for Paris, Graham and the Rio Grande Valley). So any future revision, I think, should reflect the status quo of:

Republic of West Texas
Republic of Texas based in Nacogdoches, having established relations with survivor communities in Arkansas and Louisiana
City of Paris and City of Graham in north Texas, with Paris being known to the Broken Bow community
Some presence in south Texas, perhaps South Padre Island, the Rio Grande Valley or another area NOT nuked...this area would be known to Mexico and to West Texas

And, somehow, Mexico would have facilitated an exploration of Texas proper by the 1990s. Full reunification not having happened could be explained any number of ways: lack of resources in building highways and railroads, difficulty in finding proper routes that avoid nuked and radioactive areas, issues between the different regions, etc. Thoughts, anyone?BrianD 19:29, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

"inh."[]

I have figured a way to get rid of the ambiguous "inh." (population "unit"). If you add the |pop_unit= (est. date) the "890,000 (est. Feb. 2010) inh." becomes simply "890,000 (est. Feb. 2010)" That way, just a number need be entered for "population." The qualifier takes the place of "inhabitants," which is redundant anyway. SouthWriter 18:19, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Noted, South, Thanks for the contribution!BrianD 03:30, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Glad I can help. SouthWriter 12:50, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Baseball[]

Figured I'd supply you this info, given you've named the teams now. Just a list of names used by old baseball teams in West Texas, may or may not be useful. Note that I have a list like this for pretty much every nation, lol.

Midland Cubs/Indians/Cardinals/Cowboys, Lamesa Dodgers/Lobos, Artesia Drillers/Numexers/Dodgers, Ballinger Cats), Big Spring Broncs/Cosden Cops/Barons/Bombers/Pirates/Springers/Cowboys, Carlsbad Potashers, Hobbs Sports/Drillers/Boosters, Odessa Oilers/Eagles, Winters-Ballinger Eagles, Sweetwater Braves/Sports/Spudders/Swatters, Plainview Ponies, Alpine Cowboys, Monahans Trojans, Wink Spudders

Figure these are more likely than random big league names, or some original ones.

Lordganon 08:20, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

A little revision is in order, then! Thanks for your hard work and research.

Wink Spudders???

BrianD 17:39, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. No worries, Brian. Can't remember why I did this list, but its for the whole continent and several sports, lol.

Yeah, there's a few really weird ones like that on the list. Don't really know what the people were thinking, lol. And they get worse than Spudders, too.

Lordganon 17:50, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

Catholic Church[]

Came up with a name for Zurek's predecessor. Jerome Joseph Hastrich, Bishop of Gallup in Navajo Territory, would have lived, and been able to be appointed. By my guess of things, the diocese would survive in some form, and with contact in 1989, allow his appointment to the new archdiocese in 1990/1991. His death in 1995 allows Zurek to take his role, and be elevated in 1996, shortly after East Texas is put back into contact.

Zurek will turn 75 in 2023, fyi, so that is when he would resign his position, barring some sort of promotion, or such thing, in the meantime.

Lordganon 11:35, June 23, 2011 (UTC)