Talk:Russian Confederacy (1983: Doomsday)

I like the name Vlad, I'm going to work on the early history today if thats ok with you, Also is this ok as a posible map?Vegas adict 10:36, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

File:800px-Muscovy.png

RDC in pink, USSR in dark red

Portions of the southern part of that country on your map are already included in canonized countries.

Too blasted big too, really.

Lordganon 11:22, August 18, 2010

Ah forgot about vene's Caucasus nationsVegas adict 11:43, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

You probably should take the western third off too - that's the major industrial area of the Ukraine, and it would have been plastered.

Lordganon 11:58, August 18, 2010

I'm not sure about that, I think there might have been an expansion into Russian Ukraine in the mid 2000's, the early RDC would probably only consist of the russian territories and posibly some less damaged areas of UkraineVegas adict 12:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I'v created some of the early history, if you want to expand on it go ahead VladVegas adict 12:50, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I do agree that the size of the country on the map should decrease a bit, the southern borders shouldn't touch the OTL border of Kazakhstan, nor be near the Kubans and the Don Republic. I've added a sentence explaining that there was a small exodus from the RDC, as we have to somehow account for the surge of people fleeing the western parts of the Soviet Union so that they could reach the Siberians. I think the country should really be a bit low key, it needs to be kept under the radar of the Siberians until at least the mid-2000s.--Vladivostok 13:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oh and we should definately find a small, suitable city from which this country would have grown.--Vladivostok 13:22, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

There are several in the area that would probabley fit the purpose, was Kursk nuked?. With regards to the Siberians, before the 90's they were still mostly involved in internal matters wern't they so that might explain how it would be posible to invade a small part of non-nuked Ukraine in the late 80's while we could have the siberians discovering them during the larger expansion into Russian Ukraine that I mentioned earlierVegas adict 13:35, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

File:800px-Muscovy2.png

adjusted to Vlad's sugestions

My account is acting up again, but rest assured that I made the last edit on the page, as I felt that postponing the creation for at least 4 years would give enough time for people to flee to Siberia, rather than stay, as that is a part of canon and I felt it had to be said. We should definately check about Kursk and see which states the confederacy should have, as I've seen that Vene has a few ideas.--Vladivostok--193.198.144.27 13:53, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

If Kursk wasn't nuked it would be very good to start from as the 6th Guards divisions was based there.Vegas adict 14:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the problem with Kursk is that the Kursk Vostochy Airport is located about 7 km from Kursk and the city is a major railway hub of the Soviet Union, as well as OTL Russia. So it isn't that huge a target, but you know the rule: when in doubt, it was nuked. Perhaps some other town in the region like Zheleznogorsk? The 6th Guards division could have escaped, although not intact, from Kursk.--Vladivostok 15:14, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Cities generaly make a better power base than towns, Voronezh is a posiblity especialy if the 6th Guards were able to escape (Albeit in reduced form) from KurskVegas adict 15:32, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Voronezh will be the town from which the RDC will originate from then.--Vladivostok 15:40, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Why don't we change the name to just Russian Confederacy. VENEZUELA 15:57, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Vene has a good point, it isn't as if all the member states will be democracies, the founder was a Soviet Army colonelVegas adict 16:02, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

and other members could be monarchies. VENEZUELA 16:05, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you both want to do it, don't let me stop you. I had that name because I pretty much new that they wouldn't be democratic, sort of an ironic twist, like OTL North Korea which is called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Democratic in this case could entail equal rights within the small divisions of the country. I kind of see this like the Municipal States of the Pacific in America, albeit a bit more aggressive and more cohesive.--Vladivostok 16:44, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, do you have any ideas for the history after the Ukrainian Invasion up until the second period of expansion and contact with Siberia. I'm not very good at thinking up detailed histories in times of peaceVegas adict 17:50, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

If it's all the same to you, could I think about that one tomorrow? I'm going out right now and, as they say, Rome wasn't built in a day, we'll work it out, I'm sure we can figure something out, like contact with other states, some bands of nomadic raiders, etc.--Vladivostok 18:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, we'l talk more about it tomorrowVegas adict 18:37, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

In my point of view, I don't think the RDC COA should be on the flag.HAD 19:30, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think its to differentiate it between the Russian Provincial Government's flagVegas adict 19:33, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hate to be the bringer of bad news, but the city of Millerovo - and its military airfield - is listed in the Don Republic as being nuked.

You may want to reconsider the city of Voronezh as well - not only is there a nuclear plant fairly close by, there is also a major aircraft plant at a smaller airfield east of the city, and detachments of military planes were stationed at the international airport to the north of the city. Sounds a lot like a target to me.

While I'm not saying there shouldn't be expansion into the Ukraine - heck, it doesn't make sense for that not to be the case - expansion into that area would be a bad idea, as the extensive industry there means it would be largely irradiated. Note that I have done extensive research into targets inside the Ukraine.

Though, if you could keep it out of the majority of the Ukraine, I'd appreciate it - I have some plans for that ;)

Lordganon 09:11, August 19 (UTC)

There, problem solved as to the city, I chose this city because it is in the same oblast, but doesn't seem to have either an airbase or a nuclear power plant. And to Vegas, should the administrative divisions be based around oblasts, various cities or on something entirely different?--Vladivostok 09:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think it should be something diferent as basing it on old Oblasts would be to predictable and might remind people of the USSRVegas adict 17:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

That looks good for the city, but remember about Millerovo in the article itself.

Lordganon 11:50, August 19 (UTC)

There we go, I've moved it to Semikarakorsk. If you happen to find a city a bit closer to Millerevo that is unhit, please change it. I can't open Google Earth on this computer for some reason.--Vladivostok 12:58, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I've changed it to the city of Chertkovo, which is north of Millerevo and by my calculations was spared fallout from the strikes in the eastern Ukraine.

Lordganon 13:24, August 19 (UTC)

Fair enough about Ukraine Lordganon, do you think Lugansk would have been hit?Vegas adict 17:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it would have been - the industry there is simply too important to pass up.

Other locations in the eastern Ukraine that my research indicates would have been nuked are:

• Kharkov (likely more than one)
• Chuhuiv
• Severodonetsk
• Alchevsk
• Donetsk (likely more than one)
• Pavlohrad
• Zaporizhia
• Dnipropetrovsk (industrial city, major army/air force/rocket bases - would have been leveled by several strikes)
• Mariupol
• Melitopol
• Dniprodzerzhynsk

This is the map I'm been working on for my next project, in the western Ukraine. The strikes are all on there, so you can have a look.

Lordganon 08:25, August 20 (UTC)

Invasion of Khazakstan

why they don't annex the zone were the Volga German ASSR was located and northwest Khazakstan? VENEZUELA 15:27, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

That might be a good idea actualy especialy if we do reduce the amount of land in Ukraine, because Lordganon is right about a lot of it being a nuclear wastelandVegas adict 17:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

That would have to be extremely recent, as any sooner would put them in direct contact with the Siberians, which doesn't end well for those survivor states in the USSR which do not comply with Krasnoyarsk.--Vladivostok 18:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yes i had wondered about how the RC could posibly survive contacting Siberia, the only thing that might cause the USSR to back of would be if the RC had nukes (even one would probabley be enough) or if they had an alliance with the SAC or the ANZCVegas adict 19:22, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yup, so most likely the real meeting would occur fairly recently. Sure, there would be rumours coming into the USSR and such, but they would find out about them much later, like the late ninties or early 2000s, that way they have a fighting chance. We should also focus on the states of the Confederacy. It would be interesting to have democracies, dictatorships, communist statelets and monarchies all banded together into this colorful union.--Vladivostok 19:41, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I'v come up with a few ideas for some of the states but do you want to do them on this page or a sperate one?. Also do we want to give them a Nuke as that might stop the Siberians simply rolling over them. I mean the ANZC is hardly likely to suport a group that includes communist dictatorshipsVegas adict 20:11, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should start adding them here, but if they grow a lot, we must create an article! VENEZUELA 02:06, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Weaponry

Vegas, I see that you've added more history, which is great, but you mentioned them having MiG-23 bombers, which I'm not sure they would have at this point. I mean, we already agreed to bomb several cities with airfields, where would they then be located? And when canon is concerned it has pretty much been established that surviving airplanes and helicopters tried to make it to Socialist Siberia, although this does not exclude the odd plane here and there, of course. And as far as nukes go, were mobile platforms stationed in the Ukraine? It seems logical to assume that most known underground ICBM launch sites would be bombed.--Vladivostok 09:53, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

There were two groups of mobile launch platforms based in the area. With regards to the MiG-23's I know we agreed to nuke the cities that had large airfields but i'm sure that one squadron of MiG-23's may have survived as there are also several smaller military airfields and not gone to SIberia. For all we know some aircraft might have joined Andrey's cause which would have stoped them going to Siberia. That and the fact that if they were based in Ukraine or the far western parts of the USSR the MiG-23's, MiG-25's and MiG-29's wouldn't be able to reach far siberia without refulingVegas adict 10:43, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I did say a plain here and there and it would certainly make more sense for planes from the Ukraine to either land there or in the RC. My main concern with this and the nukes is maintenance. How would they go about such a thing? We need to carefully review which cities might be left intact together with its respective industry. I'm pretty sure Yelets would have survived and that is why I indicated it in the Economy section. But we also need to look for other cities, preferably those with the ability to build advanced machinery. All in all, I think the article is shaping up quite well, don't you? Feel free to add to the other sections of the article if you had something in mind.--Vladivostok 12:49, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yep I think it's coming along well, I'l be adding another section on the history about economic reforms today or tomorrow as well as possibly writing about the military. With regards to the maintenance of the Nukes and MiG's I've identified two cities that have the required industry as well as a closed town that makes nuclear weapon components. The two cities are Lipetsk and Saransk and although Saransk has a small airport and forward base for interceptors its unlikely the two would have been nuked. The closed town Zarechny would have the nuclear maintenance facilitys and the chemical weapons plant at Shikhany might offer an alternative to scare off the USSR anyways--Vegas adict 15:49, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Another possible source of nukes would be if any of the Black Sea Fleets balistic misile submarines survivedVegas adict 15:51, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well, getting nukes from subs would be a bit tricky, as they don't have access to the Black Sea. If anyone, Crimea would have access to the sea. I think Zarechny and Shikhany had a greater chance of survival as they were smaller targets, but I doubt they would miss Lipetsk. Saransk is up for grabs, but when in doubt, nuke.--Vladivostok 17:13, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Lipetsk, for sure. Looks to me like Zarechny and Shikhany would have received nuclear presents as well.

Yelets would be fine.

But I myself don't see anything in Saransk that would get it nuked, outside of the base - the others have more than one thing each.

Lordganon 17:58, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Zarechny and Shikhany would have been hit if the USA knew about them, However they were closed cities and is suspect very known about them within the USA's government. Zarechny was run entirely by the Military and even soviet citizens weren't allowed in without papers signed by the district commander. Therefore i suspect that due to their small size and (From the air) lack of distinctive features to mark them out as targets that they were nuked. Also with Saransk the base isn't even home to a squadron, it's just a runway built as a forward operating base, I doubt the US would have wasted a missile on itVegas adict 19:34, he August 20, 2010 (UTC)

It would have been common knowledge that even soviet citizens couldn't enter those towns for security reasons - and even the CIA could reason that something important was going on, even if they did not know exactly what. But I'd be willing to bet the CIA and the American government knew - and that makes them obvious targets.

Lordganon 21:08, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

If we go on the assumption the CIA did know what was going on in the closed towns then only Zarechny would have been hit. Shikhany wouldn't have been an important enough target. We are all ok with Saransk surviving though?. If we are that would allow for the maintenance of the Mig's and the missiles needed to launch nukes. The warheads themselves don't need that much maintenance although the radioactive material might decayVegas adict 10:02, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Saransk is fine.

Lordganon 10:15, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Saransk but I feel that Shikhany should survive as well. It would be a waste throwing missiles at that location, IMO, both towns survive.--Vladivostok 12:31, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I agree vlad Shikhany only had a population of 12,000. Its just to small to be a target, Zarechny's nuclear industry probabley means it was hit unfortunatly Vegas adict 16:10, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Religion

I think since the Germans and Muslims are member of Russia, religious freedom should be granted. VENEZUELA 23:48, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think that is pretty much an obvious factor in the whole country, as it seems it is very decentralized. Thus, every state has the right to issue any law it chooses. Great work with the flags and the stat template by the way.--Vladivostok 00:07, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm creating the rest of the states. VENEZUELA 00:57, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Meeting other countries

So, when do we want our rebuilding state to meet other survivors in ex-Soviet territory and beyond?--Vladivostok 16:23, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Around 2005?Vegas adict 16:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, why not. The Kuban People's Republic?--Vladivostok 16:53, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Them first then the other Causacus states/Ukrainian states with them finaly making contact with Socialist Siberia during an expansion into KhazakstanVegas adict 18:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Tratyakgrad

Why don't we change the name of Rossoh to Tratyakgrad, and we put Capital: Tratyakgrad (Rossoh). Also I think it would be cool if Rossoh is covered in Stalinist Architecture, Socialist Realism, and a new Palace of Soviets? what do you things guys? VENEZUELA 16:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, Tratyakgrad... Not bad, I wouldn't be opposed to changing the name to Tratyakgrad, but we wait with the change until Vegas gives his approval. As for the arhitecture, I do see some hideous, faceless communist buildings, but nothing huge or awe-inspiring. Would do a great deal of good if we could get solid pictures of such buildings, though.--Vladivostok 16:29, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

450px-Moscow Ukraina hotel.jpg

688px-Moskau Uni.jpg

800px-Smolenskaya1.JPG

Good pics, we'll use one of them probably the Moskau_Uni one.--Vladivostok 16:53, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Tratyakgrad seems like a good name for RossohVegas adict 18:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

States

Saratov and Lipetsk would likely have been nuked. And don't forget about damage to Kursk/Tambov from hits!

Lugansk is toast. VERY Toast.

Is this "Little Kazan" anywhere near Kazan? Because that's a target too.

....where's New Kiev?

I could find better capitals, if you'd like.

Lordganon 04:01, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, go right ahead. I was also surprised to see the OTL cities of oblasts still intact.--Vladivostok 11:19, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, some of them would likely have escaped destruction. On this list, however, the only one to escape completely would likely be Belogrod.

The Ukraine military headquarters has been shifted to Kramatorsk, which seems to be in the center of the Ukraine territory under its control.

The German Republic capital is now Jekaterinenstadt (Marks), as Engels is right across the river - over a bridge - from Saratov, a definite target.

The Republic of Saratov capital is now Rtishchevo.

The capital of Lipetsk is now Yelets.

Oryel and Chuvashia are fine.

The capital of Penza is now Kuznetsk.

Due to the partial hit on Tambov, the capital of that Republic is now Kotovsk.

Belogrod is fine.

Kursk would have been whacked, so the capital is now Kurchatov.

I've left the other two as-is, pending someone telling me where they are exactly.

Fixed up a couple of inconsistencies on the chart, and made it into one that was much easier to edit as well.

Lordganon 23:47, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Great, thnaks for the corrections.--Vladivostok 07:21, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

After seeing Mitro's responses and thinking about it, a couple more changes:

The capital of the Republic of Chuvashia was moved to Kanash - a large heavy industry company is based in the old capital, and has is main plant there, making it a target.

I've also given a location to New Kiev and Little Kazan, tentatively.

Lordganon 09:54, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

I feel that it may be good idea to make pages for  Individual states of the RC. I myself may make a RC Page or two.Goldwind1 (talk) 04:38, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Power to you. Just remember to use the proposal process. Lordganon (talk) 12:02, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Finished?

Well, seems to me that we've basically finished the history part of the article, don't you agree Vegas? Sure, there will have to be some additions here and there regarding the inception of other republics and all, but it is basically done. I think we can pretty much push for the article to be made canon.--Vladivostok 09:46, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

The main history is done yep. I'm going to add to some of the other sections but we should definitely push to get the article graduatedVegas adict 10:02, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Anthem?

What do you think the anthem of the Russian Confederacy. I was thinking that either The Internationale or a modified version of the National Anthem of the Soviet Union would work. I was also thinking that a posible motto might be Народы России соединяйтесь! (Peoples of Russia, Unite!)Vegas adict 11:42, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the motto I'm ok with, it's just that I find it hard to believe that every single one of the member statelets would agree to have the International, or for that matter the Anthem of the Soviet Union for their joint anthem. I think it would be best to use something simple, just as a placeholder name, like the Hymn of the Russian Confederacy.--Vladivostok 13:21, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

OkVegas adict 13:40, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

I have an idea about the Russian Confederacy what if it becomes a constitutional monarchy with a symbolic figurehead the Tsar? These different independent subgovernments within the confederacy can finally unite into one centralized state. It is an idea that the most conservative russian politicians within said state would definitely approve of.

The candidate for the throne would be the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova , who, because she was living in Spain when doomsday happened (she was north of Madrid, nowhere near where the bomb would have struck, and most likely would have had security help her to a nearby bunker). She would be the ideal candidate, and she would also insist on modernizing the Russian monarchy, having less extravagance less riches and not as much pomp. Like what King Juan Carlos I of Spain said when he was restored to his throne in 1975. The Tsarina would have no real effective power, acting only as a constitutional figurehead to guide and warn her Presidents, and to be there to represent the unity of people in times of need. What do you think?

BroccotropolisGov (talk) 00:48, March 28, 2020 (UTC)