Talk: Science and Technology (1983: Doomsday)

I hereby start to tackle a new theme in the Doomsday ATl. the scientifical and technological background needs some seriouswork and foundation. I need your collective help as this touches a lot of different fields of knowledge. Please keep descriptions realistic (progressslowed by DD, serious loss in lab capacities and demand, new priorities as consequences etc. And please also refrain from introducing science fiction (e.g. suddenly nanotech curig fallout sickness, fusion power workable within 25 years after WW3,just to name a few examples.

But please ::: HAVE FUN!!!! :):):) --Xi'Reney 03:41, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I added the bit on Hawaiian biofuel. I'd assume that with world trade hurt so badly, people would be desperate for new fuel sources, and with the Islands so ful of sugarcane... Benkarnell 21:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Other tecnologies (health and transport)

There must a mention to health and transport. In health perhaps a look at new techniques of emergency medical procedures and public and primary health care. Along with research and treatment of burns, radioactive poisoning, infectious disease (like tuberculosis, malaria and influenza-like illness), malnutrition, food contamination, child mortality, vaccination programs, waste control and AIDS. We must think that there will be at least a generation of children and newborns with major health problems. Areas of importance for, lets say first ten years. Later on, because of the high radioactive contamination, perhaps theres a resurge or important funding in the study of genetics and treatment of genetic abnormalities and mutations. Must be keep in mind has one of the consequences of Doomsday is that most important and technologically advance health facilities and research centers, along with pharmaceutical industries and research is destroyed.
On transport, I guess most of the movement of goods and people will be on the sea. So there will a boom on ship design, manufactures and naval technology. Air transports to expensive due to the use of fuel. --JorgeGG 14:22, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Excellent points. I would imagine that universities and corporations in South America, the ANZC and probably Mexico, Singapore and Celtic Alliance (the most advanced nations in this timeline by my understanding) are taking the lead regarding the issues and in the fields you've mentioned. I'd expect Siberia, given the USSR's emphasis on research and Siberia's status as its successor, to be doing its own research as well.--BrianD 17:07, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Military Technologies

It would make sense that Virginia would be at least among the top producers of miltary hardware in the world. With the military enshrined in there society like it is, they would want the best of the best in weapons for their troops. I could see a research department going round the clock to make the weapons of Virginia's miltary branches deadly, accurate, and inexpensive to produce. The Virginians would make sure that going against Virginian troops would be a terrifying and deadly experience. --Yankovic270 23:55, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Other Technology

Hey in 1983DD internet exist? And why don't you put like some giant greenhouses in the buildings of ANZC and SAC and other advanced countries for feeding the population. VENEZUELA 23:36, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

There are articles that mention a form of the internet that started first in South America. I am pretty sure that the ANZC would have also began such development under the direction of the American Provisional Administration (the first "internet" was a government program). I am working on the "communications" section of this article and will include a synopsis of the computer "revolution" that had already started with the Apple personal computers (among others). IBM had recently opened a factory and headquarters in South America as well.

As for greenhouses, I believe some articles have mentioned such technology. However, with what appears to have been a loss of market to the USA and Europe, the South American farms would have most certainly been sufficient for that continent. In Austrailia, the imports from Indonesia and the Philipines. Changing weather patterns in the northern hemisphere made the growing patterns longer there, so the "developing" nations there -- which survived the first winter at least -- would most likely have plenty of food as well.SouthWriter 01:48, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Video Games

Since Kyoto survived, how would Nintendo, already producing the Famicom (first version of the NES) and Donkey Kong, go about? Oer suggested that they may have gone back to making playing cards, but what do the rest of you guys think? Arstarpool 03:44, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think its very possible they would continue to make video games anyway. Yankovic270 04:08, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Its possible, but with many major japanese markets wiped out, Japan going isolationist for a while, and a recall of the defective famicoms in OTL dec 1983, I don't see nintento continuing with home video game systems. At least until they recover from the financial disaster that the Famicom would have been. They might move back into arcade machines and try again with a home console in the 90s after the situation had stabilized a bit in japan. When they Japan opens up again in the 2000s we'll probably see some expansion into the ANZC, then utilizing SAC advancements we would start seeing a 32 bit system around now.Oerwinde 16:41, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well, what would the OTL situation be then? Obviously, for the first 15-20 years, we would not see any video game output, though I'm sure that by the 2000's something will come out of Nintendo. In the present day, we might have Super Nintendo-era graphics. Arstarpool 05:13, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you mean "TTL," Arstar. "OTL" is short for "our time line" and means the real world. "TTL" is shorthand for "this time line" meaning the one under discussion. But you are correct about a hiatus in electronic game production in Japan during this period. However, when they start back up, they would probably utilize whatever improvements had been achieved in digital technology in the SAC (which becomes the leader in the field in TTL). --SouthWriter 14:14, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I meant the "Present Day". I'm sorry. Arstarpool 15:44, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I only pointed it out here because I didn't want to be assumptive and change it in an edit. Since the abbreviations are specialized for this wiki, I am reluctant to use them, since new users tend to get lost when they are used too liberally. --SouthWriter 16:51, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hiroshi Yamauchi who was the president of Nintendo back in 1983 was known to have a very enterprising sprit. I believe Hiroshi would try his hardest to keep his company in business after doomsday. He would probably close the arcade division and just make playing cards and toys for a while. Since Hiroshi experimented with several business ventures like hotels and taxi’s, I believe he would open up new Nintendo subsidiaries to fill the markets that were emptied after doomsday. I believe Hiroshi may someday reopen the videogame department since Nintendo had a reputation for making good arcade games like Donkey Kong even though the Famicom had technical problems. Goldwind1 (talk) 23:51, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Video Technology?

for those who have tv in this timeline, does cable exist yet?

also, do they still have VCR's or do they have DVD's yet? Althistoryluver99

Cable television is wide spread, at least in Utah I think. And I think they are probbably still at VHS level, with maybe a few experimental DVDs being produced.

Yankovic270 01:40, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

In answering these questions, it is always best to go to wikipedia. I was alive back in 1983, but at the time I was lucky to have a TV, much less cable or a video player. But the truth is, VCR's were the thing back then. Read about the history of them at the wikipedia article. Cable, known as "fiber optics" back in the eighties, became available about the same time as the VCR. In the early eighties, though, it was only used for communication - mostly voice, for bandwidth did not reach over 1 Gb/s until after Doomsday. It is unclear exactly when Cable began to be used for video. And the wikipedia article doesn't address the international use of cable networks.

I know from watching the history channel that CNN and networks like that were on in 1983.-

It is a common courtesy to sign your notes, Al.

CNN was the first "cable news" network, starting in 1980. Cable TV, it turns out (again I had to look at Wikipedia) is older than fiber optics. Originally the cable was wire, basically a very long antenna wire, that brought signals to remote areas that could not recieve the signal as broadcast as radio waves. When fiber optics became available, cable networks became the rave, since the "wires" could carry heavier traffic. That is when special programming - commercial free and thus for a fee - became more popular. SouthWriter 15:47, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Electric Cars?

So do they have all electric cars yet? I sure hope so.

I know they had the technology back in 1983. just to what extent i don't know.

The problem with electric cars is batteries. Battery technology was the first thing that Edison pushed in the 1800's. Tesla argued for Alternating Current sent over wires. Tesla won that argument for the most part, but that meant that there were slow electric cars early in the history of the automobile. Once electricity began to come over wires in high voltage streetcars and subways began to run on electricity as well. In 1983, though, the only electric vehicles that were common were small golf carts. Those had become wide spread beginning in the early fifties. SouthWriter 03:37, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Technology ON Doomsday

If this page is to be successful, we must fill in the first section of the page to know the starting point. We pretty well know that the leaders in science and technology - the USA, the USSR, Germany, and Japan - were reduced to a nineteenth century level for a least a decade as they rebuilt. However, there were "first world" technologies all over the southern hemisphere. Austrailia and New Zealand were consumers of everything that America was. There are scientists of high qualtity in those nations as well. South America, though maybe not as advanced, were certainly beginning to come into their own.

The point is - technology would not have come to a screeching halt. The fact that in this time line the south seemed to have "abandoned" the north leaves open a period of increased effort to excel in the science and technology that they inherited from them. What technology did they have? Once we know that, we can get an idea of where they would be today. SouthWriter 15:36, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Internet

Discussion moved from the United Communities talk page:

The communications page says its in Canada, too. I don't have a problem with you removing it, but I just thought since they have Binghamton (IBM HQ) it would be possible they had a line :/ Arstar 23:47, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

I've pointed out somewhere that with PC's distributed worldwide, and just taking off in 1983, that this time line is unreasonbly held back technologically. I didn't let this show through when I edited the technology page, but it has bothered me a little. But, respecting QSS, we're stuck with chat rooms and perhaps computer to computer communications 27 years later! Whatever happened to the exponential rise in technology? You know, the doubling of speed and all that. Oh well, QAA and QSS rules. :-) SouthWriter 04:16, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

So what's the plausibility for having the Internet then? It's not like every household is going to be on ATL Facebook, but it would certainly exist in Niagara Falls, and would probably exist in the regional offices of the UC throughout. Arstar 05:18, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I'd say that some sort of computer linkups via phone lines - and even fiber optics - would be plausible by 2007 or so even without being connected to the developments in the southern hemisphere. Canada had communications outside of the border area from the very beginning. Once electricity was restored (1990 or so at the latest) IBM scientists could have begun work on restoring computers based on older technology (but miniaturization may have taken some time to be restored). Access to parts would have had to wait, for the most part, until after contact with South America or ANZC. If they had working computers by the mid-2000's, they could have developed communications between them (chat rooms, perhaps, with limited graphics and no fast speed file transfer).

As for a system like that TTL has in place in South America, though, I'm not sure we could hope to get that past the editors. QSS, and to s degree QAA, indeed has to have priority. What did they know (plenty) and what access did they have to the surviving technology (not very much), are the questions. SouthWriter 05:43, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I've always viewed computer technology in the TL to be stuck in 1995 OTL, at least in the SAC. I think the main thing to look at, other than what you have written South, i the willingness of people to adopt the internet outside of the SAC. Would there be an incentive to do this, would the potential of its use be discovered by now, that sort of thing.--Vladivostok 07:06, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the "Internet" of SAC demonstrates a "start from scratch" approach that evolved along a slower pace to a point where they are comfortable with it. Spanish is "the" language of the net of TTL. Though Brazil is probably the most advanced nation and they speak Portuguese as a first language. However, ANZC nations would have had quite an incentive to communicate over the large distances between population centers. I don't see the Anglophonic community developing separately from the Hispanic in this area.

I figure that Apple and IBM-based PC's would both have an equal chance to fill that market by the 90's. But TTL has been written in such a way that very little interaction took place between the hemispheres - especially not with North America and Europe - before the 2000's. Any IBM research in Binghamton would have been limited to independent developments using equipment from the Remainder Provinces. SouthWriter 15:43, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

I would disagree when you say "the" language is Spanish. First of all, we don't know exactly what type of "internet" we're dealing with here. I do agree that the computers would be around the early 90's era OTL type stuff.

Graphics wise, Let's say that we're having an internet that looks slightly better/better graphics than Command Prompt. I don't think the computers of today would be like the ones we're using now, no background pictures, no games (other than maybe Minesweeper at best). The main core of the internet would probably be "electronic mail", "instant messaging", and maybe news.

Remember even though the Southern Hemisphere mostly survived it's still a dystopia, and the countries of South America are only considered "first/second world" because there's no first world countries left. Based on my experiences in South America throughout my life I can tell you that they would definitely be able to develop the internet, but it would be extremely simple and mostly a work tool.

Binghamton would certainly use Canadian tools, but Ithaca and Binghmaton certainly would have enough industry to produce a lot of components themselves for their computers. Arstar 18:17, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

• I had graphic user interface before Windows - it was in the mid-eighties on a "Color Computer 2" made by Tandy. The graphics were restricted to sixteen colors and "pixels" at least the size of a period (probably bigger). The most popular game at the time was "Pac-Man." The point is, the graphics were quite a bit more than "command prompt." DOS based games continued to be popular well into the days of Windows 95, in fact. My first internet connections were via DOS connections provided by CompuServe, though my computer was running Windows 3.1 at the time. SouthWriter 17:15, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

I know this is a long shot, but what about the Japanese? Perhaps they too developed their own, smaller, local version of the Internet. They were blasted pretty hard, but some technological advances could have happened in the meantime, however insignificant from our perspective.--Vladivostok 19:03, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Kyoto and Hiroshima survived, so they'd have a lot of Japan's remaining tecnological industry. Arstar 21:30, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

But, then again, do they have enough materials necessary to make new computer technology? Especially since they were isolated for so long. What I propose is this: The REMUNDO net started out as a inter-college net for transmiting information and ideas, mostly in libraries and such places. Fairly early on, its commercial value was realized and a boom in computer sales and brought REMUNDO to the forefront. It expanded through households throughout 2005-2007, finally catching the eye of the ANZC. From late 2007/early 2008, a REMUNDO link is established between the SAC and the ANZC. From 2008, the Net spreads through the Pacific to countries like Indonesia to Singapore, while in America all the way to Mexico. This would be then were the Net currently stands. "The language" would certainly be Spanish for a while, but I see no reason why English and other languages wouldn't achieve prominence as well.--Vladivostok 23:05, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

There's a page that states there's links to Canada. Arstar 00:41, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking that that should be reconsidered. I mean, how would that happen? I'm not really an expert on how the Internet works, but I'd think that there would need to be either a land line, or satellites involved. But, other than Canada, would this be reasonable expansion?--Vladivostok 07:34, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

I'm wondering if it would have taken that long, but based on TTL so far it seems that the truncated exploration of the Northern Hemisphere in 1992 indicates paranoia and distrust between the west (South and Central America) and the east (Pacific islands and Alaska). The spread up into Mexico of REMUNDO, though, may have reached up to the Texan nations even before it "caught on" in the ANZC. We can't rule out an independent move in the ANZC to link their computers the same way they were being linked in the SAC. There may have even been an advantage in Australia and New Zeeland under the tutelage of the military of the APA in the late 80's.

Meanwhile, back in Canada and New York State, the IBM scientists are 'on their own.' As power is restored in Binghamton, radio contact can be made with the Canadian Remainder Provinces. By 2000, at least, maybe even before, there would be working computers in civilized population centers in nations and city-states that would become the United Communities. Graphic User Interfaces for the systems would certainly be on par with Windows 3.1 in OTL. Communication between computers would become necessary because of the difficulty of travel (not the least being unsettled areas with raiders and such). Phone lines would be subject to disruption, so methods of getting computer info over the radio would be developed -- perhaps only text due to bandwidth limitations. UC headquarters and the offices of member 'communities' would certainly have the resources to be linked via computers by 2007. SouthWriter 17:15, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Also, what would website adressess look like? Arstar 17:45, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Most likely like this 74.177.127.12. The assignment of names to the numbers took an international committee, I believe. I logged off to allow the "signature" to appear in the line above. [SouthWriter].

I really hated it when I had to remember a string of numbers in the beginning. The "www" was a way of consolidating the increasing number of websites (bulleton boards to begin with) using providers like AOL and CompuServe. When addresses began to be assigned letters, they were restricted to eight characters. This lead to interesting uses of abbreviations (now used in texting!) SouthWriter 18:40, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, it seems to me that we have some basic material with which we can write an article about the Internet. Oh, and should we move this discussion to the Science & technology talk page?--Vladivostok 09:28, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

• My thoughts exactly, Vlad. I saw this getting way more than the UC days ago, but kept going here because it was more convenient. The article about the internet probably should have a paragraph on the Science & Technology page and then be linked to a "main article" detailing the advances around the world in computer communication. SouthWriter 21:14, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

Remember this is mostly going to be a communications internet for the UC so the numbers thing might work. Arstar 17:46, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

So, looks like after all this time we haven't come around to a decision. Would anyone mind if I start a page about the Internet?--Vladivostok 13:47, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

No problem here, Vlad. As I said in my last note over a year ago, mention it in the paragraph and link to it. Don't forget to add the "Proposal" template ("Ddprop"). I look forward to what you can share. SouthWriter 22:41, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

A couple of ideas

There are likely to be a number of technical/agricultural/other skills provisions colleges' surviving - their libraries are likely to be of considerable use.

The shape of mining is likely to change considerably: there will be a change to readily accessible veins rather than deep shafts (which are likely to fill up with water). The UK's coal heaps (pre-miners strike) might be accessible. I read somewhere of plants (the green variety rather than mechanical) being used to extract metals from slag heaps, and they are then processed to get the metals (think hydrangeas changing colour). This may well be practical in this timeline - anyone care to be a copper-crop farmer? Jackiespeel 21:43, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

More 'ideas to be worked into' various developments than requiring pages per se. Jackiespeel 14:23, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the use of plants to remove pollutants is wide-spread. It is called "Pytoremediation" or, if extracting the metals from the plants afterwards "phyto mining." It just needs to be part of the accumulated knowledge in aforementioned libraries. I'm sure that the LoN will have some of these programs up and running eventually as well. SouthWriter 17:00, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have read occasional articles about the process - one source said that the concentration of metals exceeded that at which made it viable to extract from rocks; I also read 'somewhere' that prospectors in former times used plants/specific colourations thereof to identify minerals in the soil. The basic information will be there - it will merely be a matter of developing the technology required. This might be fairly simple - possibly involving/being linked with charcoal production [1]. Jackiespeel 18:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Temperatures

As 'many' people OTL are (more) familiar with the Centigrade range, could a conversion for '10 degrees Farenheit' be given: and which systems of scientific measurement would be in use in this timeline? (I am better at coming up with 'queries about detail' than actual articles in this context.) Jackiespeel 18:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think we can say that without the USA, the systems in place in the rest of the world would be the ones in use. Lordganon 22:24, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

As for the other part, however, that's really not possible. Depending on the location, the size in Celsius that 10F could be varies significantly. Lordganon 22:26, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

There are 100 degrees Celsius for 180 degrees Farenheit. Thus, a degree Celsius is 5/9 (five ninths) of a degree Farenheit. That tranlates to .5555555..... degrees Celsius or 10 degrees F. = 5.55555555.... (5.6) degrees C. As for the scientific measurement in the timeline, it would be in Celsius. I checked at the Sydney Morning Herald website and the weather is given in Celsius. I converted put the conversion in parentheses as 5.6 C, though it probably would be more accurate to change the text to "about 9 degrees F." That way the degrees Celsius could be the accurate measurement (5 degrees C.).

As for an average, this 9 deg. F. (5 deg. C) would be higher towards the equator and less towards the poles. If we average it out, we could say that averate tempertures on the equator (say 68F/20C) goes up to 77F/25C. Highest temperatures would very in the temperate zones to with the lowest temperatures rarely reaching freezing anywhere south of perhaps Pennsylvania in America's east. The rest of the world is up to those that study these things! I live in the South, and I have been to the Peru (close to the equator). I have been in Alaska in the summer and Connecticut in the winter. Beyond that, I speak in generalities.

Going up from sea level you lose 1 degree F about every 300 feet, or 1 decree C every 140 meters. I'd say that anywhere you would expect it to be freezing year-round would have to be at least 3,000 feet or almost a kilometer (914.4 m) higher. Over the years some icecaps in the temperate zones would begin to disappear as the mountaintops began to have periods of time with tempertures higher than freezing. Well, that's more than you asked for, isn't it. If anyone wants to study this further, and update this page, just make your suggestions here first. SouthWriter 02:16, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition - and it does say 'an #average of# 10F/5.6C.' There might well be a general reversion to 'local measurements' generally. Jackiespeel 16:38, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

To be a stub or not be a stub

... the length of this article raises the question (of whether the status should be changed). Jackiespeel (talk) 17:23, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixed. And, imo, well done - there was old spam added to the bottom of this one that did not know about, lol. Lordganon (talk) 18:37, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

Misquoting Shakespeare amused me :)

Have suggested variously that there should be a Hobbesian wiki to which the nuisances can be banished and where they can conduct a war of all against all (and leave the rest of us to improve things) Jackiespeel (talk) 18:50, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

...Never even noticed the Shakespeare. Makes sense, history degree, not an English one, lol.

Would not be the worst idea, except the different brands would drive each other out, making more and more of them... pointless in the end.

Lordganon (talk) 18:54, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

Did history too - category of 'popularly reworked quotations.'

The Hobbesian wiki (where there is a war of all against all) would be a mirror maze [2] from which such persons cannot escape. Jackiespeel (talk) 19:39, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

Cloning Sheep

I doubt that the Celts would have the technology to clone a sheep less than 20 years after Doomsday. They would have bigger things to worry about. It hasn't been commercialized and more than likely after Doomsday there wouldn't be the funding to do so. Daeseunglim (talk)

Overall agree, but for different reasons. Lordganon (talk) 11:08, May 11, 2015 (UTC)