- The Germans lose confidence in the Fuhrer Goering and in November of 1942 there is another coup. xxxxx becomes the new Fuhrer. xxxx begins negotiating separate peace with Russia and Britain.
Might I suggest Rommel for the new fuhrer ? the second coup could have been orchestrated by the same people as of the "july 20 plot" in OTL but with goering being arrested for "betrayal of the german people" or somesuch thing. Rommel would have been popular enough to carry it although he might have been a bit more of a public figure to other members of the conspiracy then the actual instigator.
Following this, there would probably have been some sort of internal purge to get rid of the nazi to ensure that the new government didn't fall to a counter-coup. --Marcpasquin 16:59, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Rommel would be a good choice. He performed extremely well in France. In North Africa he showed both strategic and organizational brilliance. In this TL Barborossa is delayed so Rommel could have been better supplied and could have taken Egypt in July of '42.
I was thinking that the coup against Fuhrer Goering is motivated by those who wish to end the war and realize that Germany will have to give up some territory to buy a peace. Because Rommel was the leader who gained North Africa, it would be difficult for other Germans to disagree with him if he approves of giving it back to Britain/France to achieve peace. Also the coup organizers may think that the fact that Rommel was not involved in the Russian campaign may make it easier for him to deal with Stalin at the negotiation table. --AirshipArmada
1)Himmler should be second fuehrer rather the goering. why you might ask? consider his title, Reichsfuehrer SS. SS! thousands of soldiers loyal to him and him alone ready to fight to the death. seconf reason, waffen ss, evil bastards trained to perfection and ready to commit any atrocity to make a victory. thirdly the real power behind the throne was the army, most generals at this stage of the war were aristocratic prussian junkers, professional soldiers who had had an austere life style drummed into them from and early age. Goering a fat, greedy and corrupt drug adict, he was hated by these generals who in 1940 still had not been replaced by Nazis held the power behind the throne. Goering controlled the inefficient luftwaffe. Himmler should be the Fuehrer. either that or Heinz Guderian, i will come to him later
2) everyone is so very very wrong about rommel. the man was a perfect example of am man being promoted past his ability. as a divisional commander in france he was a brilliant tactian, the only german general to destroy cromwell tanks in the battles of belgium and northern france he was the first general to us 88's against tanks. however when elevated to commanding a entire corps he was next to useless he treated the entire afrika korps as a division attempting to free wheel an entire army, without thinking about supplies. he wasted 10% his fuel moving fuel, ammo, spare parts and tanks to the front on trucks when a perfectly useful railway was already establish. across the frontlines the british were using it. his longterm planning, large scale leadership, and strategic decsion making skills were dire in the extreme.
whether himmler or goering is 2 fuehrer is irelevant. either would have been as decadent as the other and the deposition would be the same.
Heinz Guderian, a well respected general who had won honnour and victory in france. he also has the charisma to take power, he was the only general willing to stand up to hitler. he should either take power after hitlers death or upon the deposition of the 2 fuehrer
- Goering was the official #2 man so he has a good chance of becoming the #2 Fuhrer. Also Himmler was in charge of Hitler's body guard so he may have to scramble to survive his failure.
- Yah, Rommel is a lazy choice but I don't like Guderian any better. He stood up to hitler because it was in his nature to stand up and fight. It seems Guderian was assertive but he was very quick to make enemies. I think it unlikely that he would get the support required. --AirshipArmada 21:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
yeah fair enough about guderian, i still think Himmler should be 2fuehrer. but it is your timeline, i wouldn't listen to anyone, really anything could have happened.
War against Japan
Goering, however, decides NOT to declare war on the US as his agreement with Japan requires.
Actually, the agreement didn't require Germany to go to war with Japan. The agreement only bound Germany to declare war if Japan was the victim of agression. In OTL, Hitler declared war on the US in the hope that Japan would repay by attacking the Soviet Union. Since there's no war with the Soviets, there'd be no motivation to declare war on the US anyways.
How does USA defeat Japan? MASSIVE loss of life in amphibious assault of Okinawa?
There was massive loss of life in an amphibious assault on Okinawa *here* too ... at any rate, there's a few possibilities:
- Negotiated peace
- Roosevelt is unwilling to pay the price of at least half a million American lives in invading Japan. Japan signs a peace treaty agreeing to withdraw from Manchuria, Taiwan, Southeast Asia, etc. Japan probably is allowed to keep Korea.
- Possibility of a "rematch"
- Major upheavals in Japan. Possible deposing of the Emperor, and either the enthronement of the "other Emperor" (Kumazawa Hiromichi; a descendant of the Southern Court during a period in Japanese history when two branches of the Imperial Family claimed the throne; in OTL, Kumazawa attempted, unsuccessfully, to get the Occupation forces to side with him - he argued that Japan's troubles could only be solved by restoring the rightful Emperor to the throne and thereby procuring the blessings of Amaterasu) or the establishment of some sort of dictatorial nominal republic; or possibly simply a reshuffling of the political order, with the Emperor relegated to a figurehead status once more. Civil War a very real possibility
- Massive loss of life in invasion of home islands
- Millions of casualties. Probably resulting in a kind of isolationism for America. Perhaps continued military occupation of Japan for a while, but America would become reluctant to go to war again after that for some time.
- Uneasy truce
- America occupies Okinawa and Hokkaido; Japan still holds onto Korea. No invasion of the home islands, however. A truce is drawn up. Eventually, America sets up republican governments in Okinawa and Hokkaido (Ryukyu and Ezo, perhaps?) Eventual reunification of Japan after relations thaw
- Cold War division
- Soviet Union occupies northern Japan (perhaps just Hokkaido), the United States occupies southern Japan, possibly Germany-style division of Japan. Another possibility is that Hokkaido would be set up as a "People's Republic of Hokkaido"
U.S Super Power
After the war there would probably be strong anti-american sentiment thru ought europe and asia for its lack of involvement in europe and fighting in asia and without a cold war russia would become the most powerful country in the world and perhaps a new cold war would develop between germany and russia with germany taking americas place and america reaching a steady rate of economic and political decline due to its issues with isolationism and racism similar to but not as worse as apartheid south africa.
- The US did support the war in Europe by supplying material through its various Lend-Lease programs. The US was also busy with its own war. So I don’t think there would be a strong anti-US sentiment but there also would not be any pro-US sentiment. The US would not have any clout in Europe and no one there would have any reason to trust America. If a cold war develops, I think Europe would not feel itself to be part of the Allies but would feel more like it was stuck in the middle between US-USSR tensions. There would be no N.A.T.O. in ALT.
- Yes; the Soviets would be very powerful but they would hesitate before trying any further expansion in Europe due to Germany’s presence. They would probably interfere in the politics in as many second world and third world countries as they could. The US would not be able to provide as great of a counterbalance to the Soviets in ATL.--AirshipArmada 04:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
One more thing. U.S. based companies "Ford, etc" were sending over trucks (which were converted into mobile gas chambers) and materials to Germany circa 1940s. Could that also fuel the anti-American feeling in Europe?
-G
Would Germany be viable state?
would this Alt world germany be a viable state. it is an amalgamation of various ethnic groups that have had a history of vicously fighting each other. not only that but it is dominated by a country founded on the principle of its on racial superiority and in otl a very bad prewar track record of dealing ethnic minorities. germany began the first genocide in namibia in 1904. it has throughoutits history expanded to the east massacring the slavs as it went.
in my opinion Germany would be a basket case state with many areas out of control of central authority. perfect place for soviet expansion
- Very good point. Especially as the USA is not particular invested in defending Europe in this TL. --AirshipArmada 23:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
WHY would the USSR make peace?
Not only did they have the largest army compared to all of the allies combined, but it would be favourable for the USSR to push through and to take Germany. There is no chance in hell the USSR would have made peace. Germany lost automatically once they stepped on Slav soil.
-G
- I basically agree with you here. This timeline doesn't follow the most probable flow of events, but just one possible flow. I commented on this in the "about" area and tried to map it with this image:
The USSR-Defeats-Germany line is thicker (more probable) than the Germany/USSR-Sue-for-Peace line. AirshipArmada 21:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
No Hiroshima or Nagasaki could mean all-out nuclear war
A case could be made that without the "small" examples of nuclear devastation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that an althist without them might lead war planners to more readily use nuclear weapons in a later situation. Especially if incidents like Dresden, maybe even the Tokyo fire-bombing hadn't occurred either.