Not very realistic. The only place outside of the Sicilian Republic where canon says the Mob has been active at all is small areas of Louisiana. And there, they were slaughtered. Not only that, but 1995 is in no way realistic, either, nor is them finding a script of Godfather 3, of which a single copy not used in otl was in existence in 1983, and could not possibly have been found. Lordganon 21:31, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
There was a rough draft in the late '70s for the Godfather III script. As for sightings, the mob could keep their heads down. All they have to do is keep that up and no one knows about them until their country was founded in Western former USSR. I think this will work just fine. CrimsonAssassin
Did I not just say that there was a single script written that they could not possibly have found? >.>;
The Mob/Mafia is not a hidden force Post-Doomsday, and has no connections elsewhere. You over-inflate them to a point where they had not been since the early 20th century, before they were largely thrown into jail by the Italian and American governments.
There is no way on earth that they could get to the western USSR to have a state, as that would mean going through other states, nor would they have any need to. You do know that the Sicilian Republic is a Mafia-run and organized state, right?
As written this is unrealistic.
Lordganon 22:14, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
- This article can still be saved if it is rewritten as a peice on the ruling party of the Sicilian Republic. Mitro 14:27, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
I suppose I should mention here too. I'll adopt this article. Caeruleus 16:56, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Since I believe the rule is a one-week waiting period, I have officially adopted this article. Caeruleus 17:06, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
You didn't even have to wait. That rule doesn't apply to things with the "adoption" tag on it. Lordganon 22:09, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
- I guess you learn new things every day. Caeruleus 23:36, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
Tuscany, and even Florence itself, wasn't completely taken in the invasion Caer. You have it sounding like both were.
On another note, when you get to international activities, have a look at the activities of the "Southern Mafia" in Louisiana. Not a branch of this mafia, but.... I could definitely see some aid or something.
Lordganon 01:00, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Fixed the Tuscany part. I'll include something about the Southern Mafia. Caeruleus 01:28, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
Er... The Southern Mafia is gone, Caer. Their attempt to overthrow the Louisiana government in the mid-90s left them eradicated.
Also, before I forget, the Sicilians have set up their own Catholic Church, and do not recognize the Pope. Though, the RCC in Rio does have its own network of underground churches, etc. set up in the area. (like in China otl) Note that I have lists of the dioceses, structure, etc. of both churches in Sicily already waiting for me to add them to the Vatican article.
Lordganon 03:05, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Umm...what? Where was the establishment of an independent Catholic Church mentioned? Caeruleus 04:11, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
Long been hinted at in the Vatican article, something that I've been leaving hints at here and there. Not an independent church, though, strictly speaking. A rival claimant to the Papacy, in fact. Take my word for it, for the most part, at this time.
Also, you're overstating the economic strength of the Sicilians. More an fyi than anything.
Lordganon 06:09, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Umm...ok. Not sure why they'd want to do that, but I guess I'll hold off on that until more is forthcoming. Caeruleus 08:02, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
Rome destroyed, Pope dead. From there, more or less what was done in Rio, just.... kind of a Mafia-run version, with any clergy who had been opposed to them dead, and the remainder forced to swear obedience. Not recognize the Pope, etc. Lordganon 08:25, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- I suppose that makes sense, at least as a temporary measure. Is there a Sicilian pope or is it like the Chinese Catholic Church where everything is government run? Caeruleus 20:36, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
In theory, government run, though a rival Pope isn't out of the picture with that choice. However, I'd say no Pope, myself, simply because no one above the rank of bishop would have been left alive, lol. Really, just mention that the Church exists, and leave it there for now. Lordganon 21:34, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
And, given the international situation, crackdowns, etc. are going to be horrific against the Mafia. Their international presence is going to be a lot less than you've got written now. Especially in areas they've lost in the last year. And, the Tuscan population is definitely not pro-Sicily in any way, at least with regards to the vast majority. Lordganon 21:54, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, no Pope makes more sense. I'll find somewhere to mention it.
- Many of the Mafia's foreign operations would be largely contracted out with the Mafia in charge and providing capital while using local gangs. Beyond the Mediterranean and Europe, most nations have no reason to crackdown on them either. I'm thinking that, at least until the War of the Alboran Sea, the Mafia would be the dominant criminal group in Europe. Afterwards, there will be a crackdown in the region, mainly in countries where Sicily would have a direct political interest, and they will be weakened which is when the eastern European cartels will begin to move in and compete with them. I'll get to their weakened presence in their lost territories in the later sections of the history.
- The southern Tuscan population has a small pro-Sicilian minority according to the article. It's certainly not a majority. Caeruleus 23:15, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, they have a small minority. However, that is not what you're saying in the article.
Caer, ever since the occupation of the mainland started in 1987 you're going to have massive crackdowns - not the 1990s. Not only are they criminals, but also a very real "Fifth Column" that will support Sicily in any conflicts. Everyone will crack down on them, for that reason. And, there is little to no evidence of any such cartels existing at all. They will indeed have a presence, but dominance? Outside of their own territories, that's not remotely possible.
Lordganon 23:58, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
- That's true, but like I said, no nation beyond Europe and the Mediterranean would be particularly concerned about conflict with Sicily so they'd still probably be treated simply as criminals. I haven't fully elaborated on that yet though, so more is coming. They probably wouldn't be dominant though, so I'll fix that. And the cartels I'm referring to are the successors to the Russian Mafia, roaming gangs, and groups like the Taliban who would probably depend on things like the drug trade to survive, just like OTL. Caeruleus 03:34, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
Any country that they would be involved in at all could possibly get involved with conflict in the region. For instance, during the last war they were literally a single bullet, if you think about it, away from conflict with the ANZC. Same goes for any nation that had merchants in the region. As I said, a potential "Fifth Column." When you could get into a war with a nation because of a single bullet, you're not going to let that stick around.
Until the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian Mafia was very small and only in the cities. They are gone here, except in maybe Siberia, in which case they have no activities in Europe. Any roaming gangs - considering that there aren't any of any size - are a non-matter. And there isn't any Taliban-like groups outside of Chechnya and Central Asia, neither of which has much influence outside of the two areas.
You're definitely taking Louisiana the wrong way. The Southern Mafia was destroyed, with virtually no survivors. They got surrounded and killed/arrested at the capital. Nor is Louisiana going to be, as a result of that, a spot where the Mafia will use as a supply/entry spot at all.
Caer, you're going a touch too far with this thing overall. It sounds an awful lot like you're trying to write an article about Sicily. But, the thing is, you're not, and you definitely have no authority to write anything that even sounds like you are. This article is about the Governing Mafia, and their activities. Not the state itself. You need to tone that down. I fully realize that you've put a lot of work into that, but.... as I said, you're missing the point of what this article is about. Summaries of the history and their activities, etc. in the wars, etc. is one thing, but what you're doing is another thing entirely. Has to go, I'm afraid, and given that at this point I'm the caretaker of Sicily, you're going to respect that.
Also, no missiles. Italy doesn't produce them otl, I believe, and even if they did, the facilities wouldn't be in the South. Wars here are not being fought with missiles, but with guns and cannons.
Lordganon 07:04, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
- I'll additionally downsize their foreign operations, but they're still going to have a presence in many countries. It's very difficult to permanently eradicate a major criminal organization like this, particularly when most states are fairly weak and wouldn't have the capabilities needed to wipe them out.
- Even if the Southern Mafia was destroyed, their criminal connections and operations could still be inherited by Sicily. The reason they were destroyed is because they became a de facto militant group and lost a major confrontation, not because Louisana has a investigative police force. As long as the Sicilians remained in the shadows and didn't interfere with the government, they could conceivable maintain a low level of operations.
- And I was afraid you were going to say that. I was attempting to outline their entire strategy and decision making process, but I realize I pretty much detailed the entire war in the process. Can I tweak it to add more of a focus on the leadership themselves while leaving most of it? If nothing else, the war isn't really detailed anywhere else.
- Italy produced at least one SAM/Air-to-Air missile before Doomsday, the Aspide, and they had the facilities necessary to natively produce American-made missiles. Unfortunately, I can't pin down where any of those facilities were located. Some of them could have been located in the Tiber River vally, Tuscany, or Naples though. I'll remove the surface-to-surface missile references though. Caeruleus 18:07, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
My research indicates that the missiles were either made inside Naples itself, or somewhere in northern Italy, most likely Turin. The company that makes them only seems to have facilities in the south, besides Naples, that are making parts for the Boeing 787. Note, of course, that plane did not exist at the time. If the plant existed at all in 1983, it'd have still been making aircraft parts - you can't go from doing one to making the other.
My point with Louisiana was more so that while they could probably have a small presence, they'd be insane to use it as their major center. Given the difficulties in the area with the SM, the reaction to that move by the Sicilians would be..... extreme. Besides that, there's no point in going all the way to the Gulf for that type of thing, especially when the Miss. is both irradiated in areas and starting to change river channels. Nor does Louisiana have any sort of large ports, etc. Aim for Delmarva, I think, for the major center.
No, Caer. You're going to have to remove a lot of the war stuff. I've no problem with the decision-making process, or the strategy, but what you've got there is far, far, too much. I'm well aware that it's not really too detailed elsewhere, but you're also not expanding on it. Use the details that are in other articles, and expand on them a touch - I recognize that you'll need to do that a bit - but don't do anything else with it.
Remember that this is supposed to be about the Mafia itself, not the state.
Lordganon 21:18, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Ok. I change the thing about the SM and the missiles. And I'll edit the war part. Caeruleus 22:53, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
The article is finished. Any other objections? Caeruleus 00:06, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
Much better, Caer. Only two things I can see: No Automated anything that could be harmful like missiles/turrets is going to be in use. The capability to do that is in the last 20 years otl, and requires a large computer industry to do. We can definitely say they don't have that. And, the ADC invaded Sardinia, not Corsica.
And, add a line about their Church, if you would. Avoid details, just a quick mention is good.
Lordganon 05:29, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Done. Caeruleus 07:01, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
Request to adopt this page[]
Hi to everyone, i'm Alessio, the owner of the page about Italy, i formally request to adopt this page too, as is connected to Italy and viceversa.
My intent is to maintain the feeling and the ideas of the page, as they make sense and they are realistic, what i want to do is expanding on some topics, like how the Mafie changes after the war and become companies and corporations, legal in the eye of the state and of the world, how this companies are using front operations for still practice illegal activities like the smuggling of drugs or weapons. As well helping and supporting outside mafie and giving them funds, for example in France, Delmarva, Texas, Canada and also reviving support by the clans located in Australia and South America, i would also as well extend the operations of the mafia in places like Atlantic City or Toledo and Victoria.