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Hi there...

a nice ideas and detailed work, good job! I would just leave out the german element and the rescue missions as i dont think a wrecked South Africa might be able to undertake rescue missions to Europe, concerning resources. maybe some refugee ships arrive, maybe even Thatcher.. but leave out Schmidt I suggest :) --Xi'Reney 01:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this article, I'd like to suggest spliting it into smaller paragraphs. Large paragraphs can sometimes be intimidating. DarthEinstein 01:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

To Mitro: Does this take into account your ideas at Talk:1983: Doomsday? It seems a lot shorter and more white-centric than what you had written. Benkarnell 16:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

No I did not write what you see now on this article, in fact I haven't edited this since June. What I added on Talk:1983: Doomsday was a rough draft containing elements from here, New Britain, the map, and some of my own ideas. I will make the changes to avoid confusion. Mitro 16:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Note: the history section needs to be updated to reflect only the Union's hisotry. Mitro 16:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Flag

The old flag of the Union and Republic of South Africa is very Eurocentric and associated with apartheid. *Here* practically the first thing the post-apartheid govt did was throw it out. Just looking at the geography and the numbers, I'd imagine that Bophuthatswana is the strongest member of the union, possibly by a significant margin. I suggest giving this no flag until something is created that reflects the reality of the New Union. Benkarnell 17:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Mitro 18:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I have flags of all the countries that make up the New Union. Bob 10:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Griqualand: That's a cool flag! It makes me think of a pro-Hanoverian flag in a TL where the Jacobites win. Why does Griqualand revert to a British ensign? Maybe we need to take the time to figure out just what Griqualand is. The name was used in the 19th cetury, and not really since then.
Bophuthatswana: it's the flag of the bantustan, so it makes sense. I like the irony of a bantustan government becoming an island of stability. We probably shouldn't assume they _all_ turned out OK, but this one works.
Mapungubwe: I like. How about a green background?
DSWA: I don't understand why the German refugees would use a German Empire flag.
Orania: That's an OTL flag from 2004, according to FOTW. It's very unlikely, since Orania *there* probably has little in common with the real Orania (founded 1994) besides the name.
RZA: Looks too busy for me. An occupation flag would probably be very basic and ad hoc-looking, while a flag designed for the people of the RZA would not have symbols of the occupying powers. [EDIT] Is the RZA a member of the New Union? I thought that it wasn't.
Please don't think I'm trashing any ideas. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Benkarnell 16:53, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
The RZA is not a member of the Union, though we still need a flag for the RZA article. Mitro 17:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Griqualand: Well the Griqua's are basically a mixture of Afrikaners and the original Khoikhoi inhabitants of the Cape and don't have much relation to the British, why would they revert to a British ensign? Especially considering the aversion many of the culturally closely related Afrikaners still seem to have towards the British. I guess they might adopt something reminiscent to the Boer republics, something like this.
Bophuthatswana: Looks fine and logical to me.
Mapungubwe: Looks fine to me too.
DSWA: The colonial ensign of German South West Africa should work well for them. To my knowledge it is still in use by Namibias German community, though I'm by no means an expert on that country.
Orania: Orania, like Griqualand, would me seems use a flag reminiscent to the old Boer states, perhaps the Voortrekker flag?
RZA: I'm with Ben on this one. --Karsten vK (talk) 17:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I found a new flag for Griqualand. I couldn't find any flag of Orania from the 1980's, but because they believe in essentially Afrikanner values, why not an essentially Afrikaaner flag. Bob 14:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I have a better design for the RZA based on the pre-1996 Cape Town flag.
RZA flag
Bob 15:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

CLIMATE

I don't think that the changes to the climate of the world would have disastrous effects on South Africa -- on the contrary, I think it would actually be beneficial, would the people harness them...and that's the problem. From everything I looked at, I didn't foresee a dramatic rise in sea-level, because of the increased rainfall and glaciation of the mountains in Europe and North America. Also, remember that much more water is being held as fresh water in pluvial lakes around the world, including parts of the Sahara that are drinking up water like crazy, with the changes in the weather.

Thus, as I say, I don't know that the changes in the weather would have been disastrous had not the humans been in such a state, and could have turned the changes to their benefits. Louisiannan 14:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments

After rereading this I must say that I'm not much of a fan of these large scale, I can't imagine people who are living in a deteriorating area themselves after the attacks would spends so much resources on people so far away and which they've culturally diverted from long ago. Comparing an Afrikaner to a Dutchman makes about as much sense as comparing a Deep South American with someone from Britain: the comparison largely stops at linguistics, and even that isn't entirely convincing. I can still believe the Anglo-Africans might still feel a bond with their British counterparts that's strong enough to make them sacrifice some means to initiate a small scale evacuation, but I can hardly imagine the Germans and Afrikaners doing anything such.

So I'm rather puzzled as to how all these remarkable "Deutschländer" immigrants get to rule the DSWA (Why is that name left untranslated anyway?). Looking at this category there are several German(ised) names that'd make likelier candidates. I guess such a state would be based on Central and Southern Namibia where most German Namibians live, with its capital at Windhoek/Windhuk, or Keetmanshoop if it's more Southern based. The coast where the world map places is the inhospitable Namib desert.

The town of Orania didn't exist yet in 1983. It's a fine name for an Afrikaner state centred round the Orange River, but the town shouldn't be mentioned.

Anyway, this article seriously needs some improvement. The basic outline is excellent, but the devil is in the detail. --Karsten vK (talk) 15:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This was originally written by an anon back in February who has written anything since. I stepped in and tried to tie it to the TL by getting rid of some of the contradictions and adding in details from other sources. Personally I’m not that attached to it and I plan to make some of the changes you suggested. However I am really not an expert of this area so I ask that if anyone is more knowledgeable on South Africa to please help improve this article. Mitro 15:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
An anon? I thought Bob had written the original proposal. If it was just some bunchanumbers, I say chuck the whole thing. Back to the drawing board, with the exception of some of the wider regional stuff (like the fact that there is some kind of New Union) that has had an impact on the outside world. I've always found the DSWA a little ridiculous: why would anyone want to revive one of the worst colonies in history? I've kept mostly quiet about it in the name of collaboration. But it sounds like the writer is not terribly interested in collaboration. Benkarnell 21:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The DSWA as it stands now, with all the Germans heading for the desert and somehow all surviving the departure of their lush homeland, is ridiculous: true. But I'm not at all averse to the actual Germans already living there establishing a state of their own. I do think the notion of German South West Africa having been the worst colony in the world will not be entirely widespread among those folk, and they are sizeable enough a community to warrant a state, especially if the Afrikaners and Rehoboth Basters of OTL Namibia join them in their quest. I'm even considering adopting the DSWA and perhaps several other states in the new Union. I'm all for a total rewrite of this article, but I guess that could be done a lot more practically if some of the nations within it have been filled in and are given a proper background story. --Karsten vK (talk) 07:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal

Okay, I though about this for a while and came up with some sort of draft set of proposals for South(ern) Africa. This proposal is done assuming that only New Britain, and the existence of the RZA is canon and everything else is open for discussion. The specific history of the latter, being a stub, is altered substantially by the proposal.

  • premise one: After Doomsday ans loss of contact with the Northern Hemisphere, authority in South Africa largely collapses

Eastern South Africa

  • To the east of the Cape province the Bantustans assume sovereignty over their own lands and try to establish control over the areas inhabited by their respective tribe. Lesotho and Swaziland do likewise.
  • Ciskei and Transkei ultimately merge to form KwaXhosa.
  • QwaQwa is absorbed by Lesotho.
  • KwaNgwane is absorbed by Swaziland.
  • The city of Johannesburg finds itself running out of supplies and ends up in a dire situation. The fighting is ceased when an uncomfortable marriage de raison is agreed on by ANC insurgents and those government troops remaining to keep the city as a whole from starving. Johannesburg militia join the Bantustans in search for arable lands and instantly clash with them.
  • The troops of the Bantustans beat the Johannesburgers decisively and start beleaguering the city.
  • After Johannesburg falls the rulers of the former Bantustans can't agree on who is to rule the city and ultimately accept a proposal by one of the 'stans' to place the city under joint control, which leads to the formation of the "Azanian League": a loose confederation of many of the Bantustans + Lesotho and Swaziland.
  • When Robert Mugabe managed to get parts of Rhodesia under his effective control, his Republic of Zimbabwe joins the League too.
  • The Xhosa and Zulu remain outside of this union. The latter ends up in a civil war between royalist and Inkatha party republicans.
  • As the Anglo-Africans leave the area for New Britain, the only convenient lingua franca comes to be Afrikaans, much to the annoyance of local rulers.

Western South Africa

  • After the attacks the only part of South Africa to remain under effective government control is the almost wholly Europeanised part round Cape Town. As the central government finally collapsed, local authorities assume control of the area. In the end this lead to a state dominated by the Afrikaans speaking coloured population, which I suppose will be quietly emancipated in quite liberal Cape Town. Note: coloured denotes mixed race in South Africa. In many ways these people are closely related to the Afrikaners. They even voted mostly for the Afrikaner National Party in the 1994 election, possibly forming the majority of the party's electorate, presumable because they feared being ruled by the black majority even more than being ruled by their Afrikaner relatives. By that logic I'm letting them stay loyal to the regime. Ultimately they may even start styling themselves "Afrikaners" as well. The still functioning government starts referring to itself as the "RZA". An actual declaration of independence never takes place.
  • The Griqua community, centred round Griquatown in the arid north eastern part of the Cape Province, assume sovereignty over their area again.
  • A rather radical Afrikaner group does likewise with the western part of the modern province of the northern Cape. Forming the "Volksstaat". Popularly known by the name of its capital: the Bitterfontein Republic.
  • Meanwhile in South West Africa, a group of ethnic German leaders meet in Windhoek and proclaim that now that South Africa no longer exists its mandate on the country has also expired and South West Africa is terra nullius. After having ensured themselves of the support of the local Afrikaners and Basters they declare themselves sovereign over the whole of the area. They however only manage to take control of the southern and central part of the country. Neither is the new country, which has started using the name and flag of the former German colony in the area, exclusively a German state. One may well claim that the region is effectively more under the control of the more numerous Afrikaners than under that of the Germans.
  • Triggered by the establishment of the Azanian League, leaders of the western states form a Union of their own. Calling it the "New Union of South Africa". Memberstates are the RZA, Bitterfontein, Griqualand and the DSWA. --Karsten vK (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Flag (again)

Nusa flag

I like the idea of replacing the old tiny flags with new ones... but the fact remains that you're still left with a flagthat loks a whole lot like the "apartheid flag". This is a simple little one that I whipped up. The brown, black, and white represent SA's three races. They are joined at the center point to represent the races' unity and interdependence. The gold fly represents prosperity and progress (and keeps the flag heraldically correct, important in South Africa). Benkarnell 22:48, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Nusa flag 2
Meh, I don't like that flag. Here's a better one. Same symbolism, but the gold band represents the rich land of South Africa binding the people together. The rule of tincture gets broken, but not badly. Benkarnell 02:41, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

In all of this chaos, what happened to Mandela? was he atomized or did he live through Doomsday? I have no idea when he served as leader of South Africa. --Yankovic270 03:04, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

He's in the Timeline. He was rescued from prison by ANC members and taken to the Jo'burg-Pretoria area, where he was killed in the civil violence there. I don't think we know what happened to the rest of the ANC leadership. Presumably some of them were behind the creation of the New Union, which we as yet know little about. Benkarnell 15:59, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
I guess the ANC involvement will be greater in the Azanian League to the east, the NUSA is more of a club of Afrikaners, Coloureds and the occasional German living in the area of the modern North and West Cape provinces. Which is also one of the reasons why I recycled the apartheid era flag. I guess to many blacks the very name 'South Africa' will breath apartheid, certainly after the post-Doomsday events and without the Mandela's grand compromising in 1994, which makes that I estimated that none of their states would join the NUSA and the flag would be much less objectionable. Especially considering the persecutions at the Cape, it seems to me that language and religion rather than race would become the primary identifiers in the area of the NUSA, which would make the flag rather awkward. I do think it's a great flag for a part of South Africa where race will be a more important issue, how about using this flag for the Johannesburg district (of 'Gauteng' as I suppose it will be renamed) of the Azanian League? --Karsten vK (talk) 17:57, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
Aha, I had noticed that the New Union was lacking a certain Black element, but I had thought that was due to neglect and Eurocentrism on the part of our team, not due to design. I had assumed the New Union to be an across-the-board organization aimed at restoring order to the entire country. I think it's _much_ more interesting as just one faction. And in that light, it makes perfect sense for them to resurrect the Dutch-based "apartheid flag". What is the Azanian League? I don't think I've come across it before. Assuming it to be some sort of Black-based unity movement, definitely, it can have the flag. Benkarnell 22:23, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I made a rough map of what I imagined South Africa to look like (Behold my MS Paint skills! :P). Basically the Azanian League is a organisation of Bophuthatswana, Lebowa, Gazankulu, Venda (thus far all former Bantustans) with Swaziland and Lesotho formed after the siege of Johannesburg, I guess it is quite suited for the flag indeed:

  • The city of Johannesburg finds itself running out of supplies and ends up in a dire situation. The fighting is ceased when an uncomfortable marriage de raison is agreed on by ANC insurgents and those government troops remaining to keep the city as a whole from starving. Johannesburg militia join the Bantustans in search for arable lands and instantly clash with them.
  • The troops of the Bantustans beat the Johannesburgers decisively and start beleaguering the city.
  • After Johannesburg falls the rulers of the former Bantustans can't agree on who is to rule the city and ultimately accept a proposal by one of the 'stans' to place the city under joint control, which leads to the formation of the "Azanian League": a loose confederation of many of the Bantustans + Lesotho and Swaziland.

KwaXhosa and remains out of the union to not mess with the New Britain storyline. I had sort of like imagined South Africa to be an ideal place for the SAC and the ANZC to both support a 'team'. --Karsten vK (talk) 19:29, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Looks good! Just a couple of possibilities I'm thinking of:
  • Based on the Timeline and other older material, I always imagined more areas of "no man's land" in South Africa, particularly in Cape Province. I believe that the RZA, for example, wanted to take over the entire Cape Province but ended up only securing a perimeter in the southwest. Maybe the Marais regime even maintains a government in exile somewhere out there!
  • I understand why you had all the Sotho and Swazi people join up with their respective independent nations. But Lesotho and Swaziland had had over 100 years of institutional separation from the Sotho and Swazi within South Africa, and it might be interesting to see if they have problems uniting like that. One or the other might not even want to.
  • It might also be interesting to see some other trans-border states or organizations emerge. Some people in Zimbabwe or Namibia might be interested in joining up with South Africans.
Again, those are stray thoughts that I'm having, not criticisms or even real suggestions. Benkarnell 21:11, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
Of course, feel free to place comments as much as you like. I like reading them :).
  • I had sort of like imagined most of these countries authority gradually fading away further away from their core, rather than stopping abruptly at a border. Feel free to interpret the areas as 'spheres of influence' rather than their exact territory (I guess that especially holds for the semi-arid nations in the North-West).
  • I think the idea of a surviving Marais loyalist exile government is absolutely great and should definitely be included.
  • The Swazi king at the time as far, as I know, made territorial claims to the Bantustan of KaNgwane, the creation of which had been intended as a first step towards the transfer of which to Swaziland. Attempts at expansion by Swaziland seems eminent therefore after Doomsday I'd say. They're going to have a hell of a time integrating their newly acquired Zulu minority though. I'm not so sure about Lesotho expanding, but by the looks of it QuaQua is too small to try to unite the South African Sesotho. One may argue that these problems only serve to make the articles more interesting though.
  • The reasons for the Azanian League stopping at what used to be the South African border are caused more by my sloppy mapmaking than real reasoning. Bophuthatswana expanding into Botswana and the admission of new nations from especially Zimbabwe seem logical. --Karsten vK (talk) 17:33, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Map

As some may know, I am currently working on a new world map. I just got to South Africa, and I became really confused. I can't find articles for countries like Grigualand, Bophuthatswana, Mapungubwe, DSWA, or Orania, and those that I did find, like this one, Republic of the Cape, and RZA were confusing. Could the overall situation in South Africa be clarified for me? --DarthEinstein 22:22, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I understand the fact that the whole basic history of South Africa got redone but isn't yet implemented is horribly confusing, I'm terribly sorry but I just haven't had the time lately to do some proper writing.
  • The Republic of the Cape and the RZA are one and the same, the RZA being the name of the current authorities.
  • Griqualand got renamed as 'Waterboersland', it encompasses the eastern part of the North Cape province, centred at Griqua Town.
  • Volkstaat (previously Orania) is to the latters west, at the town of Bitterfontein.
  • The DSWA, of 'German South West Africa' encompasses a yet to be determined part of Namibia.
  • New Britain is centred at Port Elizabeth.
  • To its east you'll find KwaXhosa.
  • In the province of KwaZulu-Natal you'll find the rivalling Zulu factions.
  • The remaining parts of former South Africa, centred at Johannesburg, are largely in the hands of the various nations of the Azanian League, including Bophutswana and possibly a country called Mapungubwe (scroll up to 'Eastern South Africa' for more details on this one. Since the Azanian League has no article and isn't canon I'm not sure whether it should be included on the map.
I hope this is sort of like clarifying... --Karsten vK (talk) 18:10, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting to think the whole region is cursed (lol). Mitro 22:17, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Karsten, I'm very happy that *someone*, at least, has a clear picture in his head for South Africa. What you have written there sounds very good. Regarding the Zulu factions, which came out of my head: I imagined one faction supporting the Inkatha Freedom Party, one supporting the monarchy (which broke with the IFP for reasons I still want to explore), and one "Unionist" faction. The "Unionists" I initially imagined as supporting the New Union of South Africa. Reading your comments above, I think it's more likely that they support the Azanian League instead - probably "Azanian" is a better name than "Unionist". Benkarnell 22:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

With New Britain expanding, other nations in the area will also, the map will need updating to take these expansions into account--Smoggy80 14:31, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Neo-Union of SA (DD83)
Here's a hypotetical map for the New Union of South Africa. The names will be added later. How would this be? :D 1 Imperium Guy 17:17, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Far, far, too large. Lordganon 19:36, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

And, the RZA is not a member. Lordganon 19:37, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

The map is new, I uploaded the version with the more up to date base. :D 1 Imperium Guy 11:18, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Latest additions

Most of the recent additions to this article run completely counter to what has yet been written and decided on the area. And why Zululand would both be allowed and want to join a neo-Apartheid state is beyond me... --Karsten vK (talk) 06:21, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

They are not Neo-Apartheid, neither a country they are an alliance, just that all the countries that for now are griqua and boer but not APARTHEID, also Zululand would join because they need an alliance. VENEZUELA 23:04, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

What states might these be? Arstarpool 00:09, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

South African nuclear program

I read on Wikipedia that South Africa had a nuclear weapons program back in the 70's and 80's. I wonder what happened to the 6 bombs that program produced?

~anon

Well, they were definitely not used.

Current canon, etc. says that remnants of the SA government have remained in power at Pretoria. The weapons were stored at Pelindaba, 22 miles west of the city. They'd be under the control of that regime, with decent odds of now being inoperable.

Lordganon 23:41, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I0 belive that south africa presdent P.W Botha nearly had the black rebles nuked during the post doomsday roiting but overthorwn by a group of liberal white polations led by F.W de Klerk. The de Klerk goverment had the nukes destoryed. de Klerk also started a a seris of reforms in the name of racail harmony

~anon

No, the regime at Pretoria is definitely not "reformed." Why they would not have been used is because there would have been no real system of deployment left - SA had to use bombers, which would not have been available, more likely than not. Lordganon 01:08, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

Adoption

Could I adopt this article as there has been no work on it and I cannot figure out who the author for this article is. That is why I am asking here. :D 1 Imperium Guy 11:07, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

If someone doesn't reply by tomorrow, does this article become mine? :/ 1 Imperium Guy 10:43, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, there's not really anyone caretaking this one, lol. At a stretch, Ben, Mumby, or Vila~ would have the role, but, as stated, a major stretch.

Yes, barring objections, it'll go to you.

Lordganon 10:55, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah!! :D 1 Imperium Guy 10:58, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

I am guessing this in now mine!! :D 1 Imperium Guy 10:29, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Republic of the Cape/RZA

You may have to remove references to the Republic of the Cape as it is now the RZA, and has no mention of being part of the South African Union on the RZA page--Smoggy80 16:35, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed that, and cleaned it up overall. Lordganon 19:49, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Instead of former member, how about lapsed member, as the RZA may rejoin the SAU in the future?--Smoggy80 16:36, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

That would work, except that the RZA is not a member, and has even joined the other, New Britain-led group. It's not "lapsed." Lordganon 10:50, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

But near the top of the talkpage I read the RZA was an occupied member. :/ 1 Imperium Guy 10:41, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ben's early opinion, at best. Doesn't hold water.

And, to respond to your post on Oer's page.... it would greatly depend on what it was. Most activities would be just the single country involved, not all of them or the New Union.

Lordganon 13:37, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Indians here...

With all the focus on the black and white majorities, what would happen to all the Indian origin people? I know that there was quite a sizeable minority there and they could not have all but disappeared. So... :/ 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:11, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Something between what happened to the other two groups. With a little less genocide added onto it.

New Britain actually did have reason to think the rest of South Africa was against them - and they were actually right. During the ANZC/SAC takeover of the future RZA, New Britain invaded KwaXhosa and the Orange Free State, enraging the other states. Heck, the formation of the new South Africa was partly in response to this. Relations didn't even remotely start to improve until they pulled out of KwaXhosa in 2009.

Lordganon (talk) 08:15, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I see. Fixed accordingly. :P 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:55, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

Two pages!

Like India and the UIP, South Africa and the New Union of South Africa are different entities. As such, I propose that two pages should be created to satisfy this criteria. So this page becomes a portal page for other South African articles. Thoughts fellow users? 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:21, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, probably about time that we did that. Lordganon (talk) 06:47, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Working away on the article! :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:43, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

Population Estimates

Its all rough and my work. Thank you. A lot of these have been taken from their respective articles. Thought I would make it clearer.

  • Azanian League: 16.3 Million
  • Orange Free State: 3.5 Million
  • New Britain: 3.5 Million
  • Volkstaat: 0.6 Million
  • RZA: 4 Million
  • KwaXhosa: 3 Million
  • KwaZulu: 9 Million
  • Heiligdom: ? Million
  • Waterboersland: 0.6 Million
  • (Lesotho: 2.1 Million)

Total:  Million

Still less than OTL South Africa.

~Imp

OFS population is far too high, Imp. 3.5 million there, max, and probably less.

Waterboersland, far too high. The whole SA province that Waterboersland is a small part of only has 1.2 million people in it. Population would be less than Volkstaat, Call it four hundred thousand at most.

KwaZulu, far too low. Probably more like 9 million. Area's very heavily populated, and has a population of 10.5 million otl.

Heiligdom, far too high. Same story as Waterboersland. Probably about 500,000 at most.

Other ones have populations that are reasonable on the articles themselves.

League, 16.3 million.

New Britain, 2.4 million.

KwaXhosa, 3 million.

RZA, ~4 million.

Volstaat, tiny bit over 600,000.

Lesotho, 2 million.

If you count Lesotho in it, about the same overall number you cam up with, but in entirely different spots.

Lordganon (talk) 12:16, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

There is no reality in which those populations are at all realistic for the OFS and Heiligdom. Lordganon (talk) 04:41, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

You're about a million too high for New Britain. No way they get nearly a million and a half more people than the area has otl, despite everything. There was a lot of dead there, and refugees to elsewhere. Lordganon (talk) 14:22, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

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