Talk: The Andean Wars

Possibly, Castile and Aragon never conquered Al-Andalus

The headline says it all. If the Ottoman Empire had sent troops to support Al-Andalus, if the leaders of Al-Andalus had not fallen into different factions, if Boabdil had not been so aggressive... Al-Andalus might never have been conquered by Ferdinand and Isabella. This is a great reason for Columbus to never get sent to America, and a great reason for there to be a Civil War. Remember that Granada was not conquered until 1492.

I also have an issue with you saying that the Spanish were ejected from their homeland, never to return. In 1492, it wasn't their homeland, it was the Moors' homeland, who had lived and ruled there for 800 years (four times as long as the United States has been around, and we never question that this is our homeland. Say, for example, that somehow Native Americans grouped together and took over the government of the U.S.. That's sort of a terrible simile to what happened in Iberia). Atinoda 22:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Another thing I realized; the Mongols, especially the Golden Horde in Russia, didn't disperse across the steppes. Their descendents still live there. Kazan was captured by Tsar Ivan IV, but the people who lived there didn't "disperse." However, you couldn't have picked a better time for Russia to be conquered -- just a few years before, the Poles had ridden in and captured Moscow. At the beginning of the 1600's there was, effectively, no central government. It was called the "Time of Troubles," although that translation hardly does it justice. Atinoda 22:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

What allows the Ottomans to suddenly reverse their losses in Spain and go on even further than they'd gotten before? - Nik 01:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, there are actually more than one POD in this Althist. Henry the Navigator never goes to Ceuta to attack the Moors, thus solidfying Ottoman power in that area.

Could you combine PODs and have something happen to Henry the Navigator so that the whole age of discovery is delayed - including the voyage of Columbus?--AirshipArmada 16:27, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, the rivalry between Spain and Portugal would cause the Spanish Civil War and the mudsli invasion. Without that Cabot would discover the New World. --Henneth 17:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This would certainly change 1492: Conquest of Paradise.

question

I'm going to add events in America, should I make another page?--Henneth 23:53, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Columbus

Columbus hits a force 5 hurricane just 50 miles away from the OTL Bahamas and his fleet is destroyed. He manages to ride a life boat for 8 months back and professes that he reached the end of the Civilized earth and there is no western sea routh to Asia. He is forced in disgrace back to Genoa. -- Was there just such a hurricane? Also, even if Columbus hadn't discovered America, it would surely have been discovered anyways. John Cabot reached North America just a couple years after Columbus *here* after all - Nik 04:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah but with the Spanish Civil War right after it, many british sailors are sent to restore order and fight the muslims. This includes John Cabot. --Henneth 15:24, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I see. And once the Muslims were pushing into Europe, people would presumably be more concerned with them than with any possible western sea route or new lands - Nik 21:41, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Note that John Cabot was not English (nor even British, beware anachronisms), but Italian. He moved to England to search a western passage to the Indies, much probably influenced by Columbus (or the same Columbus sources), but unrelated to Columbus voyages. If the English would not give him support he might have gone to Scotland, Ireland or Denmark.

About Spain... there was no Spain, as one souvereign country, in 1492; Castile-Leon and Aragon-Navarre were united as Spain by 1520, several years after the voyages of John Cabot (1497) and Pedro Álvarez Cabral (1500).

I am working with a similar POD in my Cabotia and Brasil timeline.

--Carlos Th (talk) 03:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking at your timeline and if john cabot was Italian, the would have probably gone south and fought the Muslims in the Medittereinian. But the difference between your timeine and mine is that Colombus does fail to get off the mainland of europe, he hits a hurricane which would've been something incredibly new and scary to a religous man. To the people of spain that would mean that the current rulers have been unsucessful against Portugal. That would spark civil war. --Henneth 20:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I know the timelines are different, and probably the details of the POD would explain it.

There are a few points that require further detail:

• OTL, Columbus expedition was a small enterprise that would not affect politics if a negative result, even doubling the expedition that would not affect the popularity of the king and queen that had finally expelled the Moorish kingdom of Granada.
• Back then, in 1492, "Spain" meaned "The Christian kingdoms in Iberia", as opposed to Al-Andalus. It helps being more specific: a civil war in Castile, a civil war in Aragon... a war between Aragon and Castile would not be "civil".
• Democracy, Spain, 15th century... I cannot get the picture.

Go on with the idea, but do not forget to polish the details.

--Carlos Th (talk)

Ok, the leap of prosperisty immeaditaly following Columbuses yovage kept the spanish people happy with the habsburgs. With that sucess reaching portugal already and sapain falls into second place, people would riot if they could not feed thier families.

I don't Believe I've ever mentioned a spanish democracy...

I'm polishing. Wax on... wax off...

--Henneth 03:15, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Galapagos=Manarunasuyo

Feel free to remove this suggestion from the text, I'm not sure of the etiquette here.

Used the template of the Inca naming the divisions of their empire after the people who lived there. e.g "Kollasuyo", land of the Aymara. From Quechua "mana" (negative marker) runa ("man") suyo ("land" or "belongs to")

The Americas

Just to mention that the OTL areas of Aztec and Maya influence lie witihin Central America and thus it isn't really correct to put these civilisations under an 'Andean' heading, since the Andes don't extend northwards past Venezuela and Colombia. A more correct term would be Yucatan.

The Mayan states were in a decline caused by a period of intense warefare starting around 800AD OTL. By the 1500s, sculpture and architecture were in decline, but they were very accomplished at warefare. Fortifications built in southern Guatemala at places like {Mixco Viejo} and {Iximche} are quite impressive. It's no surprise that the Spanish conquest of the Yucatan took 170 years. Without gun powder, the Aztecs would never have taken this region. A more plausible althistory might be the Maya uniting and conquering the Aztec regions to the north.

Also, the Maya and Aztec already had their own (pictoral) scripts for writing and so it is unlikely that they would have adopted something second-hand from Easter Island. The Incas had a system of recording information based on knotted strings (khipu), the uses of which- and thus extend to which it can be called 'writing'- are disputed. However, any more complicated system of recording information which would most likely derive from this rather than a script taken from a distant Pacific island with whom, presumably even in this timeline, there would be very infrequent contact.

Interesting stuff though, just point this out as (hopefully) contstructive criticism.

Things that worry me

A list in no particular order of things I find hard to believe.

1. Columbus surviving in a lifeboat for eight months.

2. A revolt that deposes Ferdinand and Isabella.

3. A major revolt inspired by envy of the Portuguese empire. Why should common people care who owns Indonesia, and why would they think lynching their monarch would be helpful?

4. An Ottoman conquest of Spain, Sicily, etc.. It's just too far away for them to exert proper strength, and the Spanish were really strong. OK, they'll be weaker after the riots, but not that weak.

5. Ottoman mass deportations. Did they do this anywhere else in their empire? Why Spain, especially?

6. Pro-democracy revolutionaries in C15 Spain. Too early, I think.

7. The West Europa Alliance's name: they'd mentioned Christendom, not Europe.

8. The West Europa Alliance's existence: unprecedented, unless you count the crusades which were pretty different.

9. The West Europa Alliance's solidarity in pushing for final victory, rather than dissolving when the main threat is past.

10. The Aztec invasion of the Yucatan. Too far, and they've got the Tlaxacalans to deal with closer to home.

11. The description of the war. Aztecs were familiar with the idea of fighting in groups. There's no reference to flowery war, and there should be.

12. The abrupt development of iron in Amazonia seems like a remarkable coincidence.

I also wonder about Columbus on the lifeboat for 8 months, would he have had time to load that amount of provisions during the storm? It could be more reasonable to say that one of the ships barely survived along with Colombus and made it back.--TEAKAY 15:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire?

I thought in the late 1400s/early 1500s the Ottomans were too busy trying to take over Constantinople from the Mamlukes to move WEST and try to take Spain and Italy?!?!?

They had already finished their conquest of the Byzantine Empire. Actually, while they were at war with Castile and Aragon, Al-Andalus was hoping to get some help from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire didn't want to, though, because they thought it would be a huge investment for not much gain. Atinoda 22:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

manioc states wars

i propose we have the manioc states war with the aztec and ally with the maya states.

I like that

I like that alt his, congratulations, y proposal Guarani empires in the south of southamerica, they are very in Paraguay, and a litlle in argentina brail an bolivia now in the real world--Fero 16:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Juana la Beltraneja

Perhaps, it is possible that spanish people (or spanish lords) detect that Juana (Joanna), daugther of king Henry IV -brother of Isabel-, was really legitimate and start a civil war again (was common in XIV century). Another civil war in Spain could become weak south frontier between Nazari Kingdow of Granada and Cordoba, Sevilla, Jaen...