Talk page for The Great Lakes. We are open to ideas from anyone and about anything. Have fun!

Ideas Anyone?

Any contributor (or non-contributor for the reckless of you out there) got any swish ideas that we could add or change about the map, the game, the idea, anything really? ~ FP

Maybe expand the Great Salt Lake in North America to be like the size of the Aral Sea - wipe out the Aemerican Western desert. Although if you're adding fertile land - we should try to figure out where desertification WILL happen. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:00, February 10, 2014 (UTC) 

Move the lake in the himilayas to the gobi desert. ~Toby

Well, the point of this TL is to reduce the deserts of the planet. However, me and FP have been talking about this, and we have decided on the deserts. South America will contain the Atacama as well as another - much larger desert which will combined take up the regions of Argentina and Chile. If the Sahara exists, it will be around the size of the Namib desert of OTL and the deserts of Arabia still exist in their entireity. 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:01, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Based on the Map, I'm guessing there will also be desert in North Australia. The actual rock and soil that makes up large pieces of the Australian continent is some of the worst in the world. In many areas you have desert or grassland going right up to the sea (especailly in the Northwest). Putting a big lake there will eliminate the "Red Centre" and wipe out some of the driest parts of the desert, but you're going to have to retain a lot of deert on the northern half of the continent, methinks. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:12, February 11, 2014 (UTC) 

Yeah I think you're right there. I would think maybe some of the Great Plains in the US would be desertified, effectively pushing the desert in the west further east, because of the greatly reduced sizes of the OTL Great Lakes in North America, and the fabled Dust Bowl would become a full-on desert. - FP

I thought we were going to put a lake in the Midwest? And Australia is pretty large so some desert is not out of the question. Plus, I plan to enlarge a few Pacific islands as well as a bit of Indonesia and Iceland. :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:08, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Many of the North American deserts are rain shadow deserts, meaning that they only could form in the shadow of large mountains, such as the Rockies, Cascades, or Sierra Nevada. The major lake would offset that, greatly limiting the deserts of the region. The Pueblo would probably develop further, as they had their own settlements. Just a thought. More coming soon. Phyrexia symbol Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes Phyrexia symbol

We still plan to have the rockies - just with Lakes in the region present - so many of these "rain-shadow" deserts might not exist. We would probably end up giving this area to you. :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:59, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

What you ought to do is enlarge the Azores and some other Atlantic islands to make it possible for humanity to island-hop from Europe to the Americas Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:29, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

^YES! 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:12, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I made the Azores bigger - not by much but it is something. I also added in the lakes in western OTL US so we can have more tribes develop and become better at fighting. Thoughts? 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 01:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Perfect Phyrexia symbol Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes Phyrexia symbol

Time Period

So I'm thinking that fore this to work it needs to start early - like Neolithic early, or maybe Ancient Civ early. We could do turns in 500-100 year increments until we get to like the Middle Ages and then clow it down. Thoughts? Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:53, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. Not too sure of the concept, however, so it will need to be looked at definitely. Btw, could you give us the names of the Oceanic tribes? :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Pacific Culture Areas

You mean like we talked about on chat for Oceania? You have three broad groups, Polynesians, Micronedians, and Melanesians. 

Melanesians are very dark skinned and related more to Australian Aborigines than to Polynesians. Their cultural area includes Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Fiji

Polynesians most people know so I wont go too deep in there. Note on maps that there are Polynesian enclaves in Melanesia and Micronesia

Micronesians have a mix of cultures emergin from a misx of Polynesian, Melanesian, and Filipino influences - not exactly a united cultural area.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:26, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

So you see what I mean now about your new islands giving the Melanesians a big advantage they didn't have OTL? Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:36, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Most definately, lol.

I once read that the Melanesians were displaced from their homelands and then moved to Australia and become isolated - becoming the aboriginals. Is this true in any regard?

I see the Polynesians still have control of New Zealand. I believe the Polynesian advantage will increase too as I make the islands bigger. However, I am not sure about Micronesia - they might just stay the way they are lol. :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:41, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I have no clue if that's tue but it doesn't sound right. And the Polynesians were always explorers who specialized in colonizing far-flung islands in search of living space. Giving them bigger islands might make them more sedentary and less exploratory. (Yes they have NZ but that was a late find for them - first colonized around 1200 AD I think) Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:45, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

My vision for the Melanesians this timeline is that they don't become an "Oceanic" culture at all, but rather a competing culture with the Javanese, and Asianized Culture, and a rival for power in OTL Indonesia with a lot of wars with the Javanese. Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:48, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

You are the man on the region, so I guess that should be ok lol. The word is might. Larger islands could also give them increased competition against each other and lead to them developing larger ships earlier on and getting to New Zealands earlier too! It works both ways lol. :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:55, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Good points - although I have a feeling that the first people to NZ are going to be the Australian Aborigines, given their improved status. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:37, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Please. Any more "LOL"s and I will flip out. I mean. Completely. ~ FP

LOL FP! :-) (Sorry you teed that up way too nicely)- Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:57, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


Lemme be clear:

Just because the TL has the ASB-Environmental tag does not mean we can go crazy with it. The objective is to create a fun, yet plausible, sequence of events. We want this to stand as an example to others someday. :P 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:53, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Phyrexia symbol Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes Phyrexia symbol

So what you're saying is that the Common Red-Nosed Space Bat will go extinct very early in this timeline? Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:21, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, most definitely. ;) --1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:10, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm... I'll think about that one ~ FP


Boys, I've done some work on the PoD on the Timeline page, have a look and see if you want to change anything ~ FP

Not bad - obviously finding a plausible PoD for something that wild is going tob be difficulut, but I suppose that's about as good as you can do. Of course - putting the PoD 65 mya would probably have prevented humans from evolving in the first place, but it works for our purposes. Besides it's more a "what if" tuimeline to illuminate how geography shapes development. - Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:03, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

It's gonna be impossible to find a PoD without affecting human evolution, so let's just leave it a coincidence FP 22:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


So when are we going to open this to general editing amongst those who are in the project? Phyrexia symbol Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes Phyrexia symbol

Well, the basics are planned to be laid down by me and FP while others talk to us about what they see is correct and incorrect. When the map game starts, all users on the list will be asked to join and begin the role-playing of their nation. Eventually, when the map game finishes, all the users will become involved in finishing the timeline and getting it to the modern day. :) 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:31, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ah Phyrexia symbol Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes Phyrexia symbol

Is this still going to happen? Macedon ShieldBow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!Rome Shield

Hopefully, me and Imp have important exams coming up but once we're past that in a couple of months - FP 09:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)


Jeez Imp, I just realise the amount of cheese you threw in our faces with dat intro. - FP(problem?)

Lol, completely untintentional. :P 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:42, May 3, 2014 (UTC)


Let's get this going

I intend to try to get this thing going if we can. FP(Hand of the Imp) 19:57, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Sorry everyone for the delay btw. FP(Hand of the Imp) 20:23, September 26, 2015 (UTC)


In case anyone was wondering, this is the structure this TL will have:

  1. Begin by (as a group) deciding how the world (politically, geographically, culturally etc.) will look by the start year of 5000 B.C.
  2. Collectively build the timeline forward to a pre-determined date (probably around 1500 B.C).
  3. At this point we all choose a nation and we play one or several period(s) of map game (may invite more players at this point to make the numbers up).
  4. Reach a pre-determined late date and complete the timeline collaboratively.

The reason for the section(s) of map game are to add an element of surprise into it. I feel sometimes timelines built peacefully lack a certain unpredictability that makes timelines exciting, and I'm hoping adding a competitive element will help this. 

FP(Hand of the Imp) 20:32, September 26, 2015 (UTC)


If anyone has any ideas at all please fire away in this handy wee space below. FP(Hand of the Imp) 20:37, September 30, 2015 (UTC)


Considering putting this idea up for adoption as a community timeline in the wiki reforms. I realise that I am talking to myself but those who stumble across this be warned. FP(Hand of the Imp) 11:19, January 26, 2016 (UTC)

Placement o' Lakes

I think you might want to place some lakes near Western Europe, as without any there, it would greatly hinder development in Western Europe, unlike OTL. Also consider more in South-Eastern OTL United States. Charlesthe50th (talk) 02:23, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

Kinda the point to hinder development in Western Europe haha. And the Deep South as well, just to create a spread of people that is quite different from OTL. 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:48, February 2, 2016 (UTC)
Oh.Charlesthe50th (talk) 14:09, February 4, 2016 (UTC)

Add a OTL Caspian Sea like lakes in to Bangladesh, Hungary/Croatia and the Amazon basin.Christina Pill (talk) 04:01, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Why is the Arial Sea missing and the Caspian Sea smaller than OTL?Christina Pill (talk) 04:01, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Placement of the Lakes is final, other than slight local details. FP(Now 10% edgier!!!) 11:57, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Ok. Charlesthe50th, supporting monarchy to the ends of the earth. 21:59, February 11, 2016 (UTC)

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