Props![]
This is very interesting. I look forward to seeing the rest of the history take shape. Oerwinde 22:51, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely-minor nitpick, the monogram inside the eagle of the flag is of the Palaiologos Family, it's not really a universally-Roman symbol. Mr.Xeight 23:34, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
I understand your concern Mr.Xeight. Although I was going to explain that later in my timeline; I'll just go ahead and explain myself.
I had an idea for this timeline, that when the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire fell, Britannia (which had abandoned the name Western Roman Empire) offered asylum to the remaining members Palaiologos Dynasty. But in this timeline, the family died out just like in OTL. So later, Britannia adopted their coat of arms as a sign that the Empire of Britannia is the successor to both Roman Empires.
I hope that makes sense. I am completely new to this sight, and I'm still getting the hang of it. I read your profile, and I would like to let you know, I'm a big fan of Byzantine history as well. Intellectual Crusader 00:13, December 19, 2010 (UTC)Intellectual Crusader 19:14, December 18, 2010 (I don't know what UTC means!)
When you edit you can remove the 2nd explaination (as I just did) :POerwinde 00:24, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Oerwinde!!!! I really appreciate it!!! Intellectual Crusader 01:59, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely brilliant! Arstar 05:47, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
That's good to know-it's seems in the United States (and probably the West as a whole) knowledge of Greek history goes Period of the City-States lumped with 300, Roman conquest, 2010 economic-troubles. Even amongst Diaspora-Greeks their knowledge on Romania is spotty. Seems that alternate-historians and the clergy will have to carry on the light of Rome! Mr.Xeight 02:31, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
Language of Britannia[]
"Hey" to anyone following my alternate timeline. I have a concern that just recently dawned upon me. In OTL, the English language evolved from Old English which was spoken by the Anglo-Saxons. But in my alternate timeline, the Saxon invasions of Britannia are defeated by the "Western Romans" occupying Britannia. I was intending for English to still be a major language in my timeline, but that now seems very unlikely. I wrote in my timeline page, that the second Western Emperor in Britannia, Ambrosius Aurelianus, spared the Saxon women and children, and I'm going to explain that their culture (including their language) still became absorbed by the Romano-British culture. If I stick to this, will any of you buy it? I mean, does that seem like a logical explanation for the evolution of the English language?
I also thought maybe, I could make an alternate English language, one similar to OTL English, but with a lot more Latin influence; and maybe even Celtic influence. Intellectual Crusader 03:44, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
I think the modern British language would be a mix of celtic and latin. Depending on the history afterwards, As modern english was also heavily influenced by french after the Norman conquest.Oerwinde 05:04, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
I'm just going to write that the Anglo-Saxons' culture was absorbed into the Roman culture along with the Celtic Britons' culture. Though I'll make their's less significant, I'll write later on that the greatest impact the Anglo-Saxons had on modern Britannian culture was the evolution of the English language. Which I will also put had heavy Latin and a little Celtic influence. I don't know if it's believable or not, but its my timeline, so I'm making it that way. I'll also explain later that the Norman invasion was defeated by the native Britannians, and they conquered Normandy in-turn. Intellectual Crusader 20:34, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
Well you already had them conquering Normandy, so thats no biggie, except I don't believe the natives were French at the time. This timeline pretty much ensures that the english language won't evolve into modern english, as it was the Norman Kings who influenced the language, and the Britannians conquering Normandy wouldn't bring French into common use. But as you said, its your timeline and you can do what you want. I don't see why you'd be so attached to them using modern English though. I'd think the timeline resulting in the British speaking something completely different would be more interesting.Oerwinde 00:18, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. Yeah I guess you have a point, I just thought it would be cool to still have an english speaking britain, but with a whole lot more Roman influence. Also about the Normans, I'm gonna write that later on that Normandy was lost to the Franks, then the Normans came and conquered it. Then they tried to invade Britannia under William The Conquer (just like in OTL), but he fails, and Britannia remains a Romano-British dominated culture. Also later on, I'll write that due to much intermarrying with the Celtic peoples, the "pure" Roman bloodline ceased to be, and know modern Britannians are a genetic mixture of Roman and Celtic origins, just like their culture. But I probably won't get to any of that for a while. Intellectual Crusader 18:05, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
You already have the Romano-Britains conquering Normandy and Brittany in 521. Which would ensure that Brittany remains heavily celtic rather than French dominated. Normandy would still be pretty celtic with some frankish and roman influences, and with the 2nd emperor being of celtic descent, you would very quickly have the empire dominated by celts, obviously educated in Roman style which would give it heavy roman flavour, but overall it would be a celtic empire. Which is pretty awesome. Having a celtic culture being a dominant power into later history is pretty sweet. Have a mixed military consisting of reformed Roman Legions, with a vanguard of Celtic berserkers.Oerwinde 18:23, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. Well really I wanted this to be a Roman-dominate culture at first. See after Juilus Nepos fled to Britannia, a lot of Romans from like Gaul, Italy, and even Iberia were immigrating to Britannia seeking to live under Roman civilization. But then they start inter-marrying with the Celts, and they gradually mix their cultures and bloodlines together. Really this isn't a Celtic Empire or a Roman dominated one. It's a mixture of both, combining their ways of war and government to create a hybrid people, both culturally and genetically. As for Normandy and Brittany being Celtic dominated, your sort of right, but the Franks take back those lands, and spread their own culture there until the Normans arrive and take it for themselves. Then we get to see William The Conqueror's EPIC FAIL to invade Britannia. But I do appreciate your input, keep rolling out suggestions. Also, I'm glad you noticed my reformed Legions; again combining both peoples together, Roman martial and discipline, along with Celtic strength and courage. Intellectual Crusader 19:22, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
The common folk would be celtic dominant, while the nobility would be Roman dominant. This would result in the Roman calendar being used, roman alphabet, etc. Roman nobility would desire some of the comforts of home resulting in the roman baths, roads, gardens, etc. (although a lot of the more notable roman achievements will have been abandoned by this time. The fall of the west will likely result in some asking why, leading them to reasons such as the roman economy's reliance on slaves and plunder, and the degeneration of the roman military from the highly disciplined legions to the pathetic levies of Rome at its fall, leading to a revival of some of the older roman traditions.) All this will lead to heavily roman influenced architecture and noble society, but the common folk will still be mostly celtic. And with marble not as accessible, you'd likely have more wood/stone amalgams in the architecture. After a couple hundred years the Nobility will have intermarried with some Celts, introducing some celtic traditions into noble society, while the commoners will have adopted some roman traditions. But the sheer number of Romans needing to immigrate in order to have an equal Roman/Celtic blend would be unrealistic. Oerwinde 20:45, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
I suppose your right, but I also thought that some of the common folk would be ethnically Roman as well. I didn't just want the nobles and Senators fleeing to Britannia. But I suppose I'l make most of the population pure-blooded Celts. But just imagining this alternate world, this Britannia in modern times, I was picturing like some people would be light-skinned with blonde or red hair. Obviously Celts. While others walking around would be olive-skinned with dark hair. The people of Roman/Romano-Celt descent. But I would still like to make their culture a hybrid of the two peoples. Intellectual Crusader 00:39, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
The thing with commoners is that they generally don't care who rules them as long as they're left alone. Many urban romans may have fled, but the farmers and such would have stayed. The urban Roman commoners likely would have settled near Londonium to be closer to the center of Roman culture on the island after that. Londonium and much of the surrounding countryside would likely have more roman descended people, while Wales, Scotland, northern England, Ireland and northern France would be mostly celtic. The center of trade and government being heavily roman would definitely contribuite to the romanization of southern England though, and likely the main port of Normandy would be heavily romanized as well from its connection with Londonium. Ireland, with the emperor importing roman settlers would likely have one or two heavily roman cities, but the rest would be mostly celtic, at least until raido/television is created. Then you would see the spread of a hybrid roman/celtic culture across the whole nation, as most media would come from Londonium. You also have to look at what normally happens with an invading force. You don't normally get an equal blend of cultures, you usually get some of the invaders' culture melding with the local, which is what you'd get here, though with the Roman advances you'd see a lot more Roman influences than you would normally.Oerwinde 01:04, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
I suppose your right. I guess, logically, this is the way for me to go. I did intend to have heavy centers for the Celtic populations. Like you said, Ireland, Scotland, maybe Wales....I'll just have to find a way to mold it all together. Plus I'll have to fit the Anglo-Saxons in there somewhere, because I wrote earlier that Emperor Aurelianus spared some of the Saxons and incorporated them into the Roman military. Though the percentage of Britannians of Anglo-Saxon descent will be much smaller than OTL England. Intellectual Crusader 02:53, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
The Anglo-Saxons would likely settle in Anglia, resulting in the name, and it would likely be like Cornwall today. Its celtic culture is largely gone, but remembered, with a revival going on, the same could be in Anglia. Its Anglo-Saxon culture is largely gone, but remembered. Oerwinde 02:57, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
That's a good idea. Intellectual Crusader 17:26, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
I have a question: Does this new empire have/will have and foothold in OTL Low countrys and will they be able to keep it/exploit it? Will they create a colonial empire outside of the island in continents such as Africa, Oceania, and America? Will the empire react to the Mongol invasion and if so how? If you are saving some of this info up for later and dont want to spoil it then I can understand that. BlackSkyEmpire 02:21, January 2, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
@BlackSkyEmpire. Well not really the low countries, but it will hold the territories of modern-day Brittany and Normandy. I will write later on about the colonial expansion into the Americas, and I was hoping to add Australia and New Zealand into the Empire. I don't mind sharing this info but I can't think of where to go from there. I'm going to write soon about the failed Norman invasion of Britannia, then Britannia's participation during the Crusades, and then discovering and conquering the New World. But I'm a little stuck on what to do after that. Intellectual Crusader 15:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
The existence of a strong state in that region for so long will likely influence the region as a whole, meaning the formation of french and german states will be influenced by them. Meaning its very unlikely we'll end up with the Napoleonic wars, as France will likely not be in a position to take over Corsica, if its even still part of Genoa. Meaning the stage won't be set for WWI or WW2, so you'll have to come up with entirely new conflicts.Oerwinde 21:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. I suppose your right. I was planning on making a lot more colonial wars in the Americas, and maybe even in the Pacific regions. Intellectual Crusader 22:00, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
Well think about it....Maybe the empire would participate on one side in the Hundred Years War and would result in a different outcome.....possibly some German sattelite states? Due to some problems with trade in the Mediterran the empire would support the newly formed Ottoman Empire in order for it to have more oppertunitys. The Black Death is more/ less worse in the empire then in OTL Great Britian. Will there be any divisions, possibly the existence of Scotland and Wales before they are reconqured by the empire or they stay independent. and the Mongol invasion is met by the Empire and begins to experience defeat by the well trained and fierce Roman soldiers and possibly pushed out of Europe. Maybe famous people in OTL or people who where close to being in that postion (maybe they where shot, died, so and so) are able to effect history in diffrent ways. Maybe the empire, Spain, and France would take steps to make sure that protestantism does not spread any more then it did in OTL. Maybe they discover the new world instead of Columbus. Maybe OTL Napoleon instead grows a love for the Empire istead of France and moves there while also making hius mark as a millitary genius in various wars resulting in either more territory, more allies, more sattelite states, or all of the above (maybe france would retake Normandy and Brittany and Napoleon re-retakes it in only a few weeks). These are just ideas anyways, but if you want to use them go ahead. BlackSkyEmpire 23:53, January 2, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
@BlackSkyEmpire. You have some very good ideas, and some of them I had already planned on using. Like for example, I wanted to use famous English people in OTL for my timeline; especially Richard the Lionheart. I might refer to him as Richardus, but I'm still debating that one. I definitely wanted to keep the Empire of Britannia Catholic, and have it as a major power against Protestant nations during the Counter-Reformation. I was also thinking of having Columbus still discover America, but he was being backed by Britannia, not Spain. And other explorers and navigators would explore for the Empire, like Amerigo Vespucci, Giovanni Da Verrazzano, etc. I was also hoping to write that for the most part Britannia wouldn't be as affected by the plague as in OTL, but thinking about now, it seems very unrealistic. As for the Mongols, I wasn't planning on Britannia facing the Mongol horde, but Britannia will take a greater part in the Crusades than OTL England. You have many good ideas my friend, keep them coming. Intellectual Crusader 19:13, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
Richard the Lionheart may have been born, but he wouldn't be part of the ruling class. He'd be Anglian, possibly a general who distinguishes himself during the crusades, but not likely emperor.Oerwinde 19:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. Well I wanted to make him a descendent of Roman Aristocracy, after all....this is alternate history. So this could be an entirely different person, who happens to be a military genius just like Richard I, and has the same name. Actually, maybe your right.......Crap! I'm running out of ideas for the future Emperors of Britannia! Intellectual Crusader 21:53, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
Just think of OTL leaders and rulers of Scotland, Wales, and England and use them. BlackSkyEmpire 22:21, January 3, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
Actually.......I can use Richard I as an Emperor of Britannia. Because he wasn't Anglian, he was mostly a Frenchman, and he is known to have spoken French during his youth, but was ignorant in English. I can just simply substitute the French/Norman blood with Roman blood. And I'll say that he was born and raised in the province of Normandy. Intellectual Crusader 22:52, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
I was actually thinking he could be Norman after I posted my last post. And future Emperors were generally appointed by the senate on advice of the current emperor, so he could be a general who distinguishes himself in the crusades and is named successor to the emperor of the time. He would further tie the Normans to the empire as well, rather than just being a conquered people.Oerwinde 10:19, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. You have a good point. I was thinking of keeping the Normans in the Empire, but they would be segregated from the rest of the Celtic and Roman population until they've proven themselves to be "civilized" Britannians. Much like the surviving Anglo-Saxons centuries earlier. Intellectual Crusader 16:28, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
Citizenship[]
Arguably one of the worst things an emperor did was granting citizenship to all residents of the empire, the Normans having to prove themselves to the empire made me think of this. One of the ways Rome maintained a large volunteer army was to offer citizenship in return for a term of military service. This ensured that the army wasn't just filled with rabble, but of people who wanted a better life for themselves and their families. When Caracalla granted all residents citizenship, it began the degradation of the legions, forcing them to recruit many mercenaries, prisoners, and slaves. I think William the Failure should cause them to reinstate the old rules of citizenship. Requiring people to prove themselves before they can be considered citizens, or buy it, if they were rich.Oerwinde 18:43, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
More info on Roman Citizenship
That is a very good idea, and I think I'm going to use it. Making conquered people fight for the Empire in order to gain citizenship would be good for the quality and morale of troops. Maybe I could also divide people in the Empire of Britannia into Citizens and.......Residents? The residents or whatever I call them, will have to serve military service or some other government service in order to gain political rights within the Empire. Such as the right to vote, etc. That is a GREAT idea! I don't know if you've seen the movie Starship Troopers or read the original book, but gaining citizenship by doing military service is a central theme in the story. In the book, the government is a Roman style Republic governing over Earth. Anyways, I thank you again, you have been a great help to me and my alternate timeline. Intellectual Crusader 04:21, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
I think from what I gathered from the article above was that the military was composed of the Auxilia, and the Legion, the legion got paid more and commanded respect and such amongst the populace, while the Auxilia were the common grunts. Only citizens could be Legion, but serving a term of service in the Auxilia got you citizenship. You could also buy a citizenship but it cost a LOT. You could also be granted citizenship as a reward for exemplary service to the empire. This all sounds good to me. Oerwinde 08:28, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
This is all really good. I'm going to explain the re-implemation of Rome's old policies regarding citizenship in Britannia in the next update. But regarding the military, I didn't want to actually call the noncitizen soldiers Auxilia. I know that is what they were in ancient Rome, but we have to remember that Europe is advancing its military tactics and creating new fighting units that are adopted by other European countries. I wanted to keep the Legions, but combine Knights in there as well. But, I guess I could write that Britannian Auxilias were created centuries later to better organize the noncitizen fighters in the Empire, and that the Auxilia is basically the Light infantry of Britannia while the Legionaries are the Heavy infantry. I'll think about it and organize it all when I update, Thanks. Intellectual Crusader 18:23, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
Hey everybody, sorry for keeping you waiting on updates. I've been sick lately, and I didn't even feel like getting up and walking around, let alone type on my computer. I've been shaking off the last of the sickness and, I though I'd update the article to the time of the Crusades. Don't worry I still want to add Richard the Lionheart as an Emperor of Britannia, and have him lead the Third Crusade, but I'll put that in tomorrow. Again, sorry for not updating the summary; if something like this happens again, I'll give you guys a warning so you won't think I abandoned the timeline or anything! Intellectual Crusader 01:43, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
Guys.......I had just updated my timeline to when Richard the Lionheart defeated Saladin and was about to capture Jerusalem, when I accidentally clicked Google Maps, one of my bookmarks. I didn't save a thing, and I lost it all! The summary remains unchanged for now. I'll just rewrite everything tomorrow after school, because I'm so mad with myself, I just don't feel like doing it tonight. Sorry, but like I said I'll rectify it tomorrow. See Ya. Intellectual Crusader 02:28, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
In many cases, if you just click "back" it will take you back to your edited version. Especially if it's not IE. As an fyi. Lordganon 12:32, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
Nation Proposals[]
Some Proposals:
- Kingdom of Israel/ Holy Land
- Malmulk Sultanate
- Commonwealth of Columbia [Commonwealth of Brittania] (I think America in this TL should be Columbia since Christiphor Columbus would still discover it, dut for Brittiana instead)
- Arabia
- Ottoman States of Turkey (OST) (After the downfall of the Ottoman Empire, some areas that where still under Ottoman authority would be revised into this)
- Byzantium Empire (OTL parts of Bulgaria, Greece, and Yugoslavia; Istanbul Province, and very little of areas in Turey)
- Armenia
- Kingdom of Naples
- Kingdom of Sicly
- Republic of Venice
- Menkugko
- (i believe Japan should still be divided, it would add some interests to Asia although there would have to be a reason why they would stay that way.)
- (Maybe make the Russians colonize in Mexico...wait a minute, what am I saying? Sorry, I just said that because it would be strange but it also adds interest......
Just some proposals...BlackSkyEmpire 04:33, January 16, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
- Japan would be united. The existence of the Britannian Empire wouldn't influence the unification of Japan, unless they started trading in asia 200 years early, which I doubt, because it would require the development of ships far ahead of their time. I could see the Eastern Roman Empire still existing with Brittannian support though.Oerwinde 05:39, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Those are pretty good ideas for nations in this point of time. However I think I should point out, I wanted the Byzantine Empire to still fall like in OTL, and the family of Constantine XI would flee to Britannia. Then they would die off, just like in OTL, and the Empire of Britannia would officially declare themselves the successor of both Roman Empires. Hence, the Third Rome, and the fact that Britannia has the double-headed eagle on their flag. I also have a few ideas for modern nations to rival Britannia, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Also, I did want Britannia to have a strong influence in East Asia, like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Philippines, etc. But I'm not sure about Japan, it might be too strong even for the mighty Empire of Britannia. Thanks for the proposals BlackSkyEmpire. Britannia Victor! Intellectual Crusader 18:15, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
Possible Flags for the Empire of Britannia[]
Hey guys, I've been falling over myself trying to create the right flag for Britannia. This is my general vision, a blue background with a black Saint George's Cross, with a Byzantine Double-headed Eagle over the cross. I've already created two versions of the National Flag, and I'm sure you guys remember the first. But I was concerned that the symbol in the circle of the eagle (despite being a symbol of the Palaiologos Dynasty) looked too much like a swastika. So I removed it, and added a Chi-Rho in the circle, and a Celtic harp in the corner. But the detail, specifically around the Chi-Rho is fuzzy, and I want to make it realistic. I'm thinking of getting rid of that eagle and finding a better one without a circle. I think it would make sense to have a Byzantine double-headed eagle over the flag, because it shows that Britannia is the successor to both Roman Empires. I actually found an Eagle I liked on this site, but it's part of the coat of arms of the Byzantine Empire in the timeline Rule Byzantium. I don't know if there are any copyright rules on this wiki, so I don't know if I can use it. If anyone can enlighten me, I would really appreciate it, and then I'll know where to move from there, with this flag situation. Intellectual Crusader 21:16, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
All images here are on the Creative Commons Shared something or other. I don't know the exact details, but you can use any material posted up here and edit it in any way. You may or may not have to mention the original artist, I'm not sure, but it would polite to do that, even if it isn't vital. Fegaxeyl 21:27, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm starting to understand. I don't know how to credit the original author, since I don't no who he/she is, but this is a great help. Thank you Fegaxeyl. Intellectual Crusader 00:17, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
The author is Gerzam. I looked at the main page for another picture and switched the pic name to that one, showing him as the person who uploaded it. Alternately, you could have just looked at who made that timeline ;)
Lordganon 02:34, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Lordganon! I'm a noob, so just please put up with me for a bit. That's all I ask. LOL! Intellectual Crusader 03:20, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
LG, if you would.
You're not a noob at all, lol. Matter of fact, its a pretty good timeline. Feel free to leave any questions on my talk page if you have any. I'm usually willing to help, lol. Lordganon 03:25, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, LG! Intellectual Crusader 16:10, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
I finally settled on the right Flag that is right for the Empire. There will hopefully be no more editing, and this is the final product. For the images, I'd like to thank Gerzam who owns the timeline Rule Byzantium. And Red VS Blue who owns the timeline Superpowers. Intellectual Crusader 02:20, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
Colonies[]
I wonder...what would Brittania's colonies in America look like (You should name America Columbia instead since he originally found America (besides the vikings and that one saints name I cannot recall) and what would there outcome be?? I think that it is possible for its colonies in America to: A. Be granted the term Commonwealth and be gifted with the power and independence of one or B. Be granted full independence; Also, the out come of the Native Americans would be no different from OTL due to how they where viewed which would stay the same as in OTL. WWI should be renamed the First Global War or whatever you want it to be. How would other nations besides Brittania end up and what impact would they have on the world? Remember, OTL England went through many rebellions and although I do not believe it would happen with England, what wars would develop between its true enemy: France??? So many questions can be asked but not all are answered at first obviously.... Thank you for your time, though. BlackSkyEmpire 02:34, January 28, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
@BlackSkyEmpire. I intend my next topic in the summary to be about the age of discovery. I was hoping to keep the name Americas, because I was going to have all the famous Italian navigators (including Amerigo Vespucci) discover and conquer for Britannia, not Spain. But if other people prefer Columbia, I could make that happen. I'm not going into details about the future, but I will tell you that the American/Columbian colonies will be granted representation within the Empire. Since the American Revolution was mostly caused by high taxes without representation, this avoids America fighting for its Independence, and the colonies are renamed Overseas Provinces. Hope that's exciting. Intellectual Crusader 18:13, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
Well, Amerigo largely got the name because of some forged letters influencing a mapmaker in Lorraine - his voyages, whatever truth there was to them, were some of the first to explore the South American coast in any depth. Here, however, with Columbus voyaging for Britain rather than Spain, it would be unlikely for them to be called America, as the original voyage - or at least, not ten one years later on - would have found the otl North American coast and mapped it somewhat. Columbia would be a good name, but so would other explorers' names. Just please, stick away from the crutch of using America, lol, especially when you have a logical reason to avoid it.
As for the rest? Anything that keeps the rebels in the American colonies - or w/e the name is - in the empire is very good in my mind. Correct a major wrong, and better the world ;)
Lordganon 18:26, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
If Columbus is sailing for Britain rather than Spain, he likely will end up taking the route Cabot did, landing in Newfoundland rather than the Caribbean. He would then likely name the area after the natives like the Caribbean was. The natives being the Beothuk people. What will happen here is then the Portuguese will get Amerigo Vespucci to chart south america like he did OTL, but because North America was discovered before South America ATL, the continents will have different names, with South America simply being America, and North America being something like Beoland, or Columbia, or named for the Emperor of the time or something like that.Oerwinde 19:04, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
Ahh, yes. The two continents would be discovered here, and be well on the way to being mapped, long before their connection was discovered. Lordganon 19:08, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to have Columbus land in modern day Virginia, or the Carolinas. And, shouldn't he realize that due to the climate, he is not in India? Then he would lead colonists in the new land, and he would name it Columbia after himself. Just thinking. Intellectual Crusader 18:25, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
That makes sense, landing in Virginia that is. Leaving from Britannia, if he wants to reach India he would have to sail south. So hitting Virginia makes sense. I still think he would name the land after the natives he encountered though like with the Caribbean. (named after the Carib people). But Columbia makes sense too. Oerwinde 19:07, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
If you're going to to that area, the Chesapeake Peninsula would probably be the best landing spot. Yeah, he should know the difference between the area and India, but you have to remember that they knew little about India at the time, since they hadn't actually had direct contact since the Early Byzantine Empire. The name.... Columbia for the continent, and then a name deprived from the natives for the peninsula, and later on, the colony. Lordganon 22:21, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
@LG. I suppose you have a point, that they didn't know much of India. I just figured since in OTL, Columbus landed in the Caribbean, he thought the climate was like India, hence, he thought he successfully landed in India. But with limited knowledge of the Far East like you pointed out, I suppose Columbus would remain ignorant of the new continent. Intellectual Crusader 16:14, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
Really, he just assumed it was. They honestly had no idea what the climate was like, beyond that some of it could support spice-growing. Europeans would probably remain ignorant for a couple voyages of the area being a new continent, considering how long after finding the mainland otl it took them to discover that. Come to think of it too, Columbus would likely be better thought of here atl - the length of the voyage would probably end up being more in line with what he expected.
And, come to think of it: otl, Columbus' brother was sounding out Henry VII when he was in Spain. He actually got approval, but they stuck with Spain because because it took too long for Henry to make a decision. A more stable and long-established kingdom, with more funds, would have approved it long before the Spanish monarchs.
Also, dont forget to change the names of the ship(s) to English names - the ships were borrowed from Spanish merchants otl. Would be likely for them to be from British merchants atl. And don't forget that two of the ships as commonly known otl were just nicknames.
Lordganon 00:01, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
I like the new section on the discovery of the New World. However, there's one thing - the river. The Potomac is inside Chesapeake Bay, which is really a fairly unlikely spot for a ship to have ended up without finding a place to land, or the like, previously. The Delaware River would probably work better as the one he finds atl, with the site of Philly or Wilmington, Delaware being the site of Nova Londinium instead of otl Washington DC (Washington was largely swampland when the city was founded - it's really unlikely that they would put a city there at all). Lordganon 00:54, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
I actually never knew that the D.C. area was originally swampland. But we must remember, Jamestown (the first successful English settlement in America) was built on swampland as well. The settlers suffered from sickness caused by native mosquitos, and they nearly starved. I suppose I could explain later that Britannian settlers suffered from the exact same problems, but they eventually managed to prosper. I thought, that being on the site of OTL Washington D.C. would establish Nova Londinium as the seat of power for the other Britannian colonies in the Americas. I also want Britannia to have greater control in the Caribbean. But thanks for the concerns; please don't be afraid to tell me if you find something that isn't realistic in the future. Intellectual Crusader 01:29, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
Heh. D.C. was originally quite a bit worse than Jamestown with regards to the swamp, and many congressmen, etc. spent as little time as they could get away with there as a result, lol. As for its location, it's more or less an accident. If you look at it on a map, you'd notice that it's about halfway (intentionally) down the coast of the original colonies, in a reasonably defensible position, and farther inland than any early settlement would be.
Atl, its just not a spot that Columbus would actually end up at for establishing a colony. Like I said, there would have been harbors, etc. long before he reached the river, and it is unlikely he'd have ended up going up the Chesapeake originally anyways. The Potomac is really not near the entrance to the Bay anyways, lol.
Lordganon 04:50, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think Columbus would have discovered as much as he did here. You've made it out as if he not only discovered half the east coast of north america, but also everything he discovered OTL.Oerwinde 09:23, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
True enough. Him going into the Bahamas would be much better. Lordganon 09:43, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm getting a lot of concerns about the site of Nova Londinium. I'm going to change it to make it more realistic for that time period. Maybe on the site of Baltimore, or somewhere more into the Chesapeake Bay or Delaware bay like LG suggested. Also I didn't really want Columbus to discover all the Caribbean Islands like he did in OTL. Really, I just wanted him to map out the southern part of the Eastern Columbian coast and then discover the Bahamas and OTL Hispaniola. I'll explain later on that Spain quickly got involved in the exploration business and took control of Cuba and Puerto Rico. Also, to get rid of any ideas of an all powerful Empire without any flaws, I'm going to have Spain conquer the Aztecs and Incas. Britannia will not be all powerful. But, I would like the Empire to conquer Brazil from the Portuguese while they were still mapping out the area. Before anyone says anything here me out; I don't want Britannia to focus on conquering African colonies except a few strategic positions, so I'm going to have Portugal start an early Scramble for Africa, because they lost their colonies in Brazil. So the Portuguese African empire will make up of most of the British Empire's holdings in Africa; but certainly not all. Intellectual Crusader 14:30, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
I like the sounds of the plans for Spain and Portugal. But don't forget France, the Dutch, and hopefully the Swedes (maybe even the Germans, lol) when dividing up colonies. France would definitely have some, as would the Dutch - if they become independent, which is not unlikely to happen even without outside support - and otl it was a rip-off and horrid luck that kept Pan-German, Italian (read: Venetian) and Swedish companies from getting their colony settlements off the ground.
Maybe have a Spanish and British split of Hispanola with a line drawn horizontally across the island?
Going into the Chesapeake further wouldn't help, IC. Heck, the Norfolk harbor, one of the best sheltered ones in the world, is at the mouth of the Chesapeake. They'd go no further after seein' it, at least right away. But, that's kinda a cheesy spot, honestly - you've got a whole different ballgame going - there's no reason for it to be settled the same way as otl.
Lordganon 20:44, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
One issue with your Amerigo Vespucci discoveries as a premise for war, Portugal had been settling Brazil before Vespucci explored the area. He was invited to explore the area in order to chart the lands Portugal had been colonizing. Pedro Álvares Cabral was a portuguese noble who discovered Brazil.Oerwinde 19:32, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
@Oerwinde. Yes, but you have to remember, that in my ALT timeline, the age of discovery kicks off earlier than it really did. So maybe the Portuguese hired Vespucci to chart the South American coast, before they settled in the area. Plus, back then, you didn't need a good reason to go to war with someone, especially over honor and territory.
Also everyone, sorry I haven't updated in a while. I've had the flu since Sunday, and I'm still feeling the effects. You won't see me updating for a little while longer; but hopefully it will be gone by this weekend, and I'll get back to work as soon as I feel better. Thanks guys, Cheers! Intellectual Crusader 17:49, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
Vespucci only made a name for himself while accompanying Cabral on his voyages. So the British wouldn't have even heard of him if thats the case.Oerwinde 18:53, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
Decline[]
I was wondering when you planned the decline of the Britannian empire? Because it just seems like you're taking anything historically significant and having the empire do it instead, and everything they undertake is successful. The cycle for an empire's power has tended to get shorter and shorter as time went on, and the Brits are nearing 1000 years as a major world power. Rome was pretty much considered the greatest empire to exist (Until the British maybe) and it only lasted about 600 years as a major power before it got pounded.Oerwinde 09:17, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
Well, Britain is a unified country in a time when most weren't, with an island to keep it safe from invaders, unlike Rome. A decline of sorts is likely, but would not happen for quite some time - 1700s, maybe? But they would be something like European countries now otl, I suspect. Lordganon 09:45, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
There will be unrest in Britannia and its colonies that did threaten to make the Empire collapse. I'll explain all of it when we get there, but I will say this. One thing that really saves Britannia from corruption and poor rulers will be their Imperial Constitution. It will effectively make Britannia an elective monarchy with both houses of the Senate choosing the next Emperor based upon merit and ability to rule. This prevents tyrants and weak rulers ascending to the throne, so unlike most of Europe, Britannia will be very stable and will be able to overcome most threats. But that won't happen until Oliver Cromwell makes his debut. Intellectual Crusader 14:30, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
Some quick questions: What about the slave trade and its legacy/influence later in the world? Who will get the most land in this competition? BlackSkyEmpire 21:32, February 20, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire
@BlackSkyEmpire. As I said earlier in the colonies section; I want Portugal to start an early Scramble for Africa, because they lost Brazil to the Empire of Britannia. And they conquer most of OTL Britain's African territories. My Britannia will have some colonies in Africa but not a lot. Because of this, slaves never become crucial to the Britanian economy in the New World. Portugal does not trade with them, and the Dutch (whom I'm going to have as Protestant and under French influence) don't really have a significant presence in Africa like they did in OTL. I'm thinking of having Venice or Genoa take OTL Dutch territory in the New World. Hope that answers your question. Oh! And the slave trade will eventually end like it did in OTL; gradually, with each nation abolishing the practice at whim. Intellectual Crusader 15:33, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
Historically, Venice was the stronger and wealthier of the two states, so I'd go with that one instead of Genoa - Genoa was easily dominated by foreign powers after the end of its golden age, while Venice took a long time to fall from grace. Lordganon 04:33, February 23, 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to let you know... I think you are doing a exellent job!
And as for decline save that for a fall in impearalism in the 20th centuryAlexanders 01:28, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
British Napoleon?[]
By the time the French had invaded Corsica, Napoleon would have been 25 and likely still be part of the Corsican nationalist movement. Republican France's invasion likely would have looked like an opportunity for advancement rather than a reason to flee to Italy.Oerwinde 03:46, May 22, 2011 (UTC)
In this timeline, Napoleon's family fled Corsica while his mother was still pregnant with him. Britannia is very close to the Italian States because of their Roman heritage, and Napoleone, would actually be able to fit into Britannian society once he became a citizen. Intellectual Crusader 21:57, May 29, 2011 (UTC)
Why did his family flee Corsica is what I'm asking. If France didn't take over Corsica from Genoa like OTL, Napoleon's family would likely be positioned to hold high positions in an independent Corsica. Not really the conditions for fleeing the country.Oerwinde 18:24, May 26, 2011 (UTC)
I never said that France didn't take Corsica from Genoa. Something like that would only further the animosity between Britannia and France, since most Britannians have some Roman blood in them, they would closely be related to Italians on a genetic level if not a cultural level. So since France annexed Corsica just like OTL under Clovis XV (aka Louis XV), Napoleon's family would have good reason to flee the island and emigrate to the Empire of Britannia if not Italy itself. Intellectual Crusader 21:57, May 29, 2011 (UTC)
Black Death[]
What happened to the Black Death? Establishment of the Britannian Empire could not have influenced the Black Plague.
Black Prince of Britannia (talk) 05:47, November 9, 2012 (UTC)Black Prince of Britannia
Adoption[]
I would like to adopt this timeline, if no one objects by the time the waiting is over.
"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 23:33, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
By Wilkia law, I have no adopted this timeline.
"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 00:24, January 8, 2014 (UTC)
I would like to help you in continuing this excellent TL so far. :) 
Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:59, January 8, 2014 (UTC)