Talk: United States (1983: Doomsday)

Archive 1 | Archive 2

Separate PUSA

It would be likely that in other regions of the United States, not just the northwestern part but say in the applacachins it would be possible that another government arises that also claims to be the successor to the United States. And as seen in articles about the survivor states many see them selves as American and would most likely also unite together to form a new United States.61.92.149.243 10:10, March 24, 2015 (UTC)

There are indeed others that claim this, namely Virginia and Superior.

The idea that they would unite, imo, is overrated. You're reading things in those articles that don't exist.

Lordganon (talk) 03:37, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

2016 Presidential Election 

I know that this is an open thing, but may I have permission to continue (or at least handle) the new US through the 2016 Presidential Election? I know that doomsday haven't been generally edited or active since late 2015, and I would like to continue or contribute some major parts of it if you don't mind. It's been a long time. Batran99 (talk) 23:01, July 23, 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest, Bantran.  Yes, please do continue the article up to the present.  Keep in mind all the member states as they were in 1983 and how they came to be in 2016 in TTL.  It will be a daunting task, so be careful to look out for large butterflies!

I am embarrassed to admit, but I am not even sure if we successfully assigned winners to the 2012 race!  Research the lives of all the state representatives and state senators, for we know that most of these state officials were out of session in late September.  Then, project the lives of the survivors to see how successful they might be. Consider the present office holders in TTL as well as past candidates.

I am particularly fond of Gov. Sarah Heath (OTL Palin) of Lincoln, who ran unsuccessfully in 2012. However, any number of candidates are just as good. I will keep an eye out on your progress, as will the active administrators. But, as you say, 1983:DD has been inactive for months. It will be nice to see some activity there. Remember QSS and QAA and you should do fine. And one more thing, "keep it plausible." --SouthWriter (talk) 00:53, July 24, 2016 (UTC)

Okay well I made my first contribution to the page, you can mention any suggestions or any problems on the talk page as I am new to editing this timeline (like a few days lol), if you want so I can fix them XD cuz I really like to have my edits and ideas approved and included so it won't end up like some others. I am going to take baby steps here so I won't be mass-editing a whole page like I normally do lol. I also read the guidelines to be within the legal zone, ex: about prominent figures, also. Batran99 (talk) 02:03, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

If what you have done is "baby steps" -- I'd hate to see your "mass-editing."  Even if your story about Jeb Bush were plausible, his move to Puerto Rico put him in a place that was not part of the US as it existed when it was founded in 1992.  He would not have recieved special communications from his father on the day of the bombings, for whatever info was available came across to everyone at the same time.  It all happened very suddenly.  Jeb Bush would not have been able to get to Nebraska from Puerto Rico anyway if he had escaped Miami.  Also, a small "isolated Nebraska town" would not have a "Secretary of Commerce."  

I have other issues with the history, but I think I will leave that until later.  It is much later than I want it to be as I write this. SouthWriter (talk) 05:31, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

Alright, sorry for the problem. Although I would point out that I read somewhere that George HW Bush had "Bush had at the last minute contacted his children before leaving for Mount Weather to warn them of the coming attack." on thispage and that I know that Puerto Rico is not part of the new US but I was referring to American citizens that are in former old US territories are accepted in the New US (as I read somewhere about that, not Puerto Rico as part of the new US. Is there any other that doesn't seem as plausible enough?  I knew I would run into problems sooner or later so I'd want to check back from time to time to see so I can confirm it on other sections (hence baby-steps). Batran99 (talk) 17:17, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

...Seriously?

Just about that whole "addition" makes no sense. You should not have done any of it without talking about it here first. For that matter, I'm removing it until it is.

Yes, Bush Senior warned his children. Quick calls from the plane, easy. Better question.... could any have been able to do anything about it? Dubya fled his home - semi-rural ranch - and got out. Jeb? Resident of Miami. Only way to get out in time by boat. And this is a man who doesn't really sail, or the like. He's dead. He can be warned all you like - that does not mean survival.

Puerto Rico? Americans there either are either citizens of that state now, or left for the Virgin Islands long ago.

Expansion? None of the states around the new US are even in favor of talking about joining. No talks would be happening.

"Dominating" the North American Union? They never had it, and aren't able to do so. They are vastly less able than you think they are.

Lincoln? Really? They aren't even remotely inclined towards such a thing.

As for the "American Spring" it hasn't really failed. It never was going to cause revolts to join the new US, or revolutions. Far more it is about the idea of the US getting back out there, out on the public stage so to speak. That goal has been successful. Just needs to be written.

No offense, but it just reads like an attempt to bias it within the overall context.

I'm all for the concept of updates, and you're definitely someone with the ability to do it. But such things... ask first.

Lordganon (talk) 00:42, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

Well that is a fail attempt at trying to be in good standing :/ (trial and error I guess). Although I admit it is a bit far fetched when re-reading it, though it was too late and I tried asking for any errors here so I can fix them overtime. Well it could help if I explain each idea here and, if you want, we could discuss each if you have the time.

Well one of my ideas as you saw earlier in 2012 presidential debates within the history features the American Spring dominating the debates and resulted in the election of Mike Simpson. While I did acknowledge that the American Spring had success (As I read 2 states entered the Union in 2012), I wanted to make it slow (to which I put a quote on Unsuccessful due to most of the neighboring states aren't willing to join FOR the Second Manifest destiny), and that I never put revolts or revolutions on there. I acknowledged the fact through the concept of the term coined as the "Second Manifest Destiny", at least for the new US.

For the gap between Simpson's inauguration and the 2016 Presidential Election can be debated, but I wanted to capture the post-effect of the American Spring event (such as the "Second Manifest Destiny" Goal of the US). I was trying to not come into contact with "large butterflies" by not going into business of politics of neighboring states (at least neighboring states that are active after 2010, since Republic of Lincoln wasn't updated after the year of 2006 so i'd wanted to capture the American spring within Republic of Lincoln by extension as well since it could change within a decade).

Speaking of Republic of Lincoln, it is for which it is also my proposal for Mike Simpson's presidency since I saw at two states periodically join during each of the presidents, but i limited it to one AND during the 2016 presidential election so that Mike Simpson won't run for re-election so I can make room for Republican candidates, such as Sarah Heath, on which South Writer is fond of and my idea of one of HW Bush's children to take up the helm as well, though not the best rep due to HW Bush's failure, I wanted 2016 presidential election to be similar to the relationship of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton in the similar period as well. So a long time runner like Sarah Heath could come into conflict with one of Bush's children (Though as I think about it I figured Neil Bush is a more viable candidate despite being near Denver which is said to be destroyed but not sure if it was a hit or direct hit).

I personally think that these concepts seem plausible enough, but maybe it wasn't as well executed as I had hoped, but luckily I only edited part of the section rather than all of the pages (or across pages to fit in) it until I had good feedback and authorization to. But idk, you could give me suggestions on what should I add or fix to make it seem more plausible or "doomsday-Material". This is only some of the ideas though. Is it possible oor am I missing something? Or is it TL;DR? Batran99 (talk) 01:57, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

Conflicting Information

The information in this article conflicts with information in the North American Union article. In that Article, Utah and Dinetah are part of the NAU, and the NAU, from -THAT- article, seem to be what becomes the restored United States. You should review this. Dr. Cayne Armand 22:30, January 5, 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, Dr. Armand. From what I remember, we worked hard to iron out most of the wrinkles when we created the new USA. The Union still exists as a regional Alliance consisting of several independent nations. I have not been active here (as is evident with my getting to this after six weeks!), but you can check with the active administrators on any changes. Alternatively, you can make proposals on the main page. SouthWriter (talk) 22:33, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Adoption Request

Hello, is there anyone still active on this page? If not, I'd like to adopt it. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:47, March 29, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

Since there don't seem to be any objections, I'm going to adopt this page. My plans for the time being will be to flesh out more of the political history (for instance, who the next President might be after Mike Simpson, as well as more about the ways the economy might change between 2010 and 2020. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 00:53, April 12, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton 

Make sure to read on the surrounding nations and the NAU pages before adding material. Also, there shouldn't be any crazy expansion for two reasons: 1. Preventing instability in the border regions. 2. Surrounding nations borders limit where it can go.

Also check politics in the area to make sure the politicians would still be in the region. For example, Sarah Heath (OTL Palin) would still be in Nebraska (this was brought up above). Another thing to note is many urban areas were obliterated on Doomsday, so as a whole the nation will lean more conservative. Check political stances in the 1980's and present day for the region to get a better gauge on the plausibility. Daeseunglim (talk) 16:20, April 26, 2020 (UTC)

2016 election

In OTL 2016 was an election year in the United States would there be an election in this TL if so who will be the candidates. Owen2019 (talk) 13:16, June 18, 2020 (UT

2016/2020 Elections

Given the growth of the American Spring, I think we should create pages regarding the most recent US presidential elections. Obviously, in the ATL as in OTL, this region is dominated by Republicans. But I could see both the 2016 and 2020 elections as being domestic referendums on expansion of the United States and a shift in its role as a regional power. Maybe have one candidate (probably the Democrat) campaigning on spending money inside the existing states and rebuilding domestic industry and ruined cities while the other candidate (probably the Republican) campaigns on contacting surviving US states and working to potentially form more unions like that between the USA and USAR.

While Oregon has a strong third party, I think it would probably endorse either the Democrat or Republican. I am leaning that the state would lean Democrat, but I’m not 100% certain since the loss of Portland and its metro eliminated the Democratic stronghold, however Salem would trend liberal.

Even though several of the states are strong Republican in 2020, in the 1980’s several elections were only a point or two between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate, including Wyoming and Montana.

I think the state political leanings of the USA will go as follows:

• Republican Strongholds
  • Cascadia
  • Cimarron
  • Dakota
  • Guymon
  • Idaho
  • Kansas
  • Lincoln
  • Nebraska
• Democratic Strongholds
  • Abosaroka
  • Colorado
  • Kootenai
  • Oregon (maybe, due to Salem absorbing any survivors from Portland, and the military government of Astoria in the northwestern being conservative it is possible that some conservatives migrated there)
  • San Juan
• Swing States
  • Montana (in the 1980’s the government was split between both major parties with Democrats being more in the federal government and Republicans being more local)
  • Wyoming (surprisingly, in several elections circa 1980, the Democrats were seemingly competitive in certain elections however, the Republicans generally won)

For possible candidates I have the following list:

• Democrats
  • Steve Bullock - Missoula or Montana (high school student in Helena on Doomsday, may have escaped and survived. He was born in Missoula so they may have returned there: OTL - Montana Governor from 2017 to 2021, former Attorney General)
  • Jim Hansen - Lincoln (studying his JD at the University of Idaho College of Law in Moscow, Idaho: OTL - Representative from Idaho between 1988 and 1994)
  • John Hickenlooper - Colorado (geologist somewhere in Colorado on Doomsday, I’m not sure what part of the state though, however based on his job it would have been a more rural section so unless he was near a silo, he likely survived)
• Republicans
  • Cliff Betz - Oregon (Lawyer in Ontario, Oregon on Doomsday: OTL- US Congressman for OR-2 from 2021 to present)
  • Elizabeth Cheney - Wyoming (high school student on Doomsday, either in Casper, WY or McLean, VA. Her family split time between the two states after her father was elected to Congress in the 1970’s. She graduated from McLean in 1984, but I’m not sure where she was exactly on Doomsday: OTL - US Congresswomen for WY at-large)
  • Tim Fox - Montana (in his Juris Doctorate in Missoula, MT on Doomsday: OTL - Attorney General from 2013 to 2021, candidate for Governor in 2020)
  • Tracey Mann - Kansas (child in Quinter, KS on Doomsday: OTL Representative and former LT Governor)
  • Adrian Smith - Nebraska (child in Scottsbluff, NE on Doomsday: OTL - US Representative for Nebraska District 3 since 2007, former member of the NE legislature)

I presume the Republicans will win the presidency again, however since the foundation of the PUSA and the relative stability the nation faces, I could see the Democrats potentially upsetting the Republican Party and winning.

I think the main issues for 2016 would be the American Spring, US relations with the CANZ, especially Alaska and Hawaii, reconstruction of domestic infrastructure, foreign relations with Texas and Victoria, mining and mineral extraction, tourism, and rebuilding the US Armed Forces, especially the Navy and Air Force.

For 2020, I think the issues would be: integrating more territory into the US and the risk of upsetting its neighbors, repairing the navy ships in the USAR, especially the USS Independence and USS Saipan, both of which are crucial assets. I could see the debate being whether the US Navy can afford continuing operations of the vessels, especially given age and maintenance status. Additionally, there would likely be debate over repositioning one of the two ships at the West Coast (since the USS Independence is the last American controlled carrier and the USS Saipan has the capabilities to act as a light carrier or helicopter carrier). Additionally debate would probably include future economic development, transportation expansion to more US survivor states in the East, and possible long term integration of survivor states that are still waiting for the USA, such as Florida, Piedmont, State College, and other survivor nations.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Mississippi

I have read in the main talk discussions regarding the territories of Minnesota, I think that there is great interest for the US to look eastward into Minnesota, primarily access to the Mississippi River. This is a crucial water corridor which could allow for greater trade and expansion into the southern central frontiers. This will also allow for a 'link' between the USA and the US on the Gulf. I'd love to hear some thoughts. Trainor90 (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree Trainor90. I did a lot of the recent work on updating the USA page, and reunification of Minnesota into the USA was indeed a thought I had. It would definitely be a priority for Torrington. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 22:05, 3 October 2021 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton

The USA Expansion Policy and Prospect States

Hi all I'm just listing prospect zones of interest for the expansion of the new united states and would love to get input.

The NAU

The North American union hosts many member states that were previous states of the USA pre doomsday. It may be worth looking into some of these as prospect states in the timeline namely Utah, Lakota, Pasco(potential for a Washington state here beyond San Juan Islands to keep the Victorians at bay), and the Dinetah. Obviously there is potential resistance to these states joining the new US but I just want a feeler on the situation with the nations.

The West coast

Considerations for the state of Astoria will need to be addressed. assimilate or let it be as a buffer territory for the Victorians northwards, either way a definitive border would need to be ratified.

There are a few pop ups in California that need to be considered. First the MSP/Jefferson though in its infancy as Jefferson is worth consideration, not state ready yet but as a protected territory under US support? Maybe. Similarly there is the California state in the north around San Francisco. Now the US has sea access through Oregon state the coastal areas are now more viable. From this it may be worth considering the lower California areas and how the US may take a role in influencing the area especially with the rogue nations acting there.

Also depending on the discussions surrounding Utah and Dinetah, there may be considerations for Sierra Nevada to join the union. That makes up the majority of the west coastal major states, if I have missed any please help out and share your thoughts.

The Great Lakes

Obviously the main concern here is the domination by superior. Any movement into this area is going to be a cause of concern for them. Approaching the state of International Falls could be seen as an act of aggression on the USA's part so careful consideration need to be taken up here in superior territory. As for superior itself, I cannot see it needing to unite with the states, it fairly powerful on the waterways it controls anyways without outside support.

The main push in this areas would then be expanding the Minnesota territory to reach the Mississippi river, then we can consider our options down river into the former central US.

The South

The south seems to be Florida and Texas' game, which I see neither of which wanting to re-join the union, Texas out of pride, Florida out of feasibility. Depending on how things shape up on the Mississippi, we may see activity for the USA in the future, but this area is off limits for now.

Oklahoma proper would seemingly fall under Texan influence if Texas can establish a strong enough presence in the north of the state(like y'know the area that suffered massive nuclear horror) so it seems that we leave that to fate for now.

Dixie is as Dixie does, let them sort their own things out first before even considering the USA equation.

Atlantic coast and remnants

For now these areas are too far flung to be feasible, though there has been talks of unions forming out there in Virginia and Pennsylvania territory. Once again lets see how these develop before broaching the USA question here.

I think that covers everywhere so far. All input and thoughts shared are great and appreciated, I cant wait to see what is done to the continent in the near future and obviously if I'm being smooth brain and not seeing the big pictures people are painting here, please ignore my flow of consciousness here haha. Trainor90 (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Jefferson joins the Union

I want my republic of jefferson to join new united states. I asked Gyphodrkyropton or permission to have jefferson join the union. He said he liked the idea of jefferson but he said that he only co owned the untied states. Thus I am aksing for permison for jefferson to join the union on this page

I believe there was talk about jefferson joining at a later point. The state had only recently organised into jefferson and was still rather unorganised at the time from the prior MSP. If those things get sorted out then i think it will be up for consideration. Also make sure you sign your posts here so we can keep track :) Trainor90 (talk) 23:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Gyhodor Krypoton told me he felt that that it was plaubale for jefferson to join this year. Lets here form other people before we make jefferson wait to join

I understand but the most recent state accepted was Cimmaron in 2020 and the Americans are currently establishing territory in Minnesota inn 2021. It was definitely considered but I'm sure it was for a later point when the USA was to approach the California remnants. The push for the Mississippi river is what I was proposing as the next most important thing, Strategically it opens a lot of the former continental US up to exploration by the states. Also establishing definite boundaries with Victoria up in Washington is paramount too. So the assimilation of Pasco may be more of a priority. California (and jefferson) is still quite the frontier when it comes to democracy it may be best to wait off on the push down the pacific coast. also if you end your message with 4 '~' it will sign and date the post for you :) Trainor90 (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Does anybody have any more inputGoldwind1 (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the nations I have made or taken over in Pennsylvania: Reading and Susquehanna (and Lehigh) have formed an economic, military, and political union. There is likely long term reunification of some sort. Also, State College, North Pennsylvania, Reading, and Susquehanna have all held various discussions (I have a proposal for an official conference) on reunification, however politics and autonomy are the major issues. I don’t see full scale reunification to be on the table, however I think strong alignment and a geopolitical union similar to the EU is highly likely in the next 20 years or so.

Most of Pennsylvanian in the northern and eastern parts of the former state are generally friendly towards the USA, but noncommittal towards reunification due to distance with the exception of Gettysburg and the Virginian controlled territory which is anti-USA/anti-NAU and will likely try to impede the rest of Pennsylvania from reunifying.

I don’t think Pennsylvania will realistically ever be able to rejoin the USA just given the distance and the sheer number of states that may be uninterested as well as the risk of the US stretching its territory too thin. However I think in the future if the NAU manages to expand eastward, membership would be possible and at a minimum, most of former Pennsylvania will be sympathetic to the US.

I think that Victoria and the US would likely be able to work out a political agreement to split the state, especially given the US controls the far western counties around Spokane and San Juan while Victoria controls the Puget Sound region. The US doesn’t seem to be very aggressive towards regions outside of formal US control so I can imagine the two countries can work out an agreement.

I am under the impression that Jefferson will eventually join the USA, while California seemed to be too disorganized and stretched thin to safely organize and join the US at the moment.

I don’t believe Dinetah, Sierra Nevada, or Utah will rejoin the USA for a variety of reasons:

1. Dinetah due to cultural differences and opinions on pre-Doomsday treatment of Amerindians
2. Sierra Nevada due to distance and I was under the impression they have historically not expressed interest.
3. Utah has garnered enough strength as an independent nation that I simply don’t see an advantage for their government. Plus the Mormon influence on government will likely make this impossible.

We should also address Utah and the USA expansion. I think that Utah may expand into southwestern Colorado, eastern Nevada, and northern Arizona. Some of these areas could overlap with the US and this should be discussed at a minimum.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Proposed map

The following map was posted to Talk:United States (1983: Doomsday)/Archive in 2019. Since it was the Archive, nobody saw it. So I'm copying it here. False Dmitri (talk) 15:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Proposed changes between 2012 and 2019. Thoughts?

• Pasco Free State and Cascadia opt to join Oregon (US) rather than Victoria under pressure in 2014, Astoria does to after direct threat of annexation in 2016 as Victoria cites 'military aggression'.

• US consolidates in Oregon and completes peaceful takeover of remaining parts of both Dakotas. Pushing into southern Idaho, Colorado, western Kansas, and eyeing resettlement/rebuilding of Minnesota. Future with Utah and Sierra Nevada uncertain, but angling to have both join as states.

• Victoria becoming more aggressive and considering invasion of Prince George as well as annexation of remainder of former Washington State not already in US hands.

• California sees the MSP more stable and expanding but still very 'Wild West', central California Republic more cohesive but a less extreme version of the fractured city-states found in Southern California.

• Superior moves deeper into Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ontario, and especially Michigan but no other immediate conflicts.

• Toledo Confederation expands but still a local power, it is sandwiched between Superior, Kentucky, Virginia, and Pennsylvania with little other place to grow.

• Pennsylvania is united and growing even into southern New York, though Virginia controls the SW part of the old State and Delmarva controls road links into and through old Philadelphia.

• Vermont merges with Outer Lands, Arastook, and Northern Townships to a Republic of New England based out of Brattleboro, heavily Vermont but not entirely. Strong ties to northern New York and helping them rebuild albeit slowly.

• Hannibal, Quad Cities Alliance, and Republic of Lincoln opt to form Great Plains Federation in response to feeling sandwiched between Kentucky, USA, and Superior. Settlers push into SE Minnesota, northern Kansas, central Illinois and ruins of Chicago/Gary/Milwaukee, southern Wisconsin, and Missouri north of the river of same name. Capital to be Booneville just west of former Des Moines or maybe Des Moines itself if the radiation is low enough.

• Delmarva grows to include the southern half of New Jersey and the ruins of Norfolk, VA. They also control (what's left of) the old DC ruins as well as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel, which somehow survived and is now open to traffic once again.

• Virginia continues to grow into old SE Virginia but otherwise is focused on its population and infrastructure

• Kentucky is absorbing small survivor communities at an astounding rate (mostly at their request!) and controls about a quarter of Arkansas, a quarter of Ohio, a third of Missouri, about 2/5 of Illinois, the western half of Tennessee, and at least half of Indiana. They also have influence in Mississippi and northern Alabama, which are tiring of the 'New Confederacy' in Muscle Shoals. Discussions are underway in Elizabethtown about whether to create more states or pursue some greater combination, especially as Lexington is almost half a million strong and even broken Louisville is beginning to come back to life once more.

• East Tennessee out of Morristown, Blue Ridge out of Franklin, and the Piedmont Republic out of Greenville are prospering with steady growth. While the latter two grow into their former states, East Tennessee is considering its future carefully, and proposing a spaceport out of the old airport at Tullahoma given the rail access and state of Cape Canaveral.

• A strong survivor state was found in Greenville NC controlling much of the coast between Wilmington and Virginia. They are isolationist to the point of being xenophobic though large convoys of well-armed travelers are left alone. Smaller groups and especially individuals travel at their own risk, the leadership are former US military and (former US military-trained) criminals with very little empathy or sense of morals. Universally the area east of I-95 in North Carolina is left alone for now, these brigands travel as far as Norfolk, VA; Savannah, GA; and Raleigh NC

• Rome is now capitol of the Restored State of Georgia, negotiations with Neonotia are well underway with a proposal to rebuild Macon as the capitol and unification in either 2025 or 2030. Southern Georgia and southern Alabama are stable with the capital of Neonatia (Americus) now over 100,000 strong though Valdosta is still larger.

• Florence is discussing the same though the state of Birmingham and Montgomery mean that Selma is likely to become the capital of a Restored Alabama around the same time. Neonotia wants to join the US, and while Rome is amenable, Florence is not and Muscle Shoals DEFINITELY is not, ironically they compete for the same territory and claim almost exactly the same borders.

• Florida has expanded to include everything but the Panhandle west of Tallahassee, Canaveral itself, and the ruins of Lauderdale and Miami

• Northern Mississippi is essentially a satellite of Kentucky but Louisiana, now in control of its home state, is encroaching on the eastern bank of the river. Hattiesburg has united the surrounding communities and controls much of the area along the coast. Central Mississippi is still a bit unsafe.

• Texas is growing into its former boundaries (and controls much of New Mexico east of the Rio Grande if only by default) while Arkansas and Oklahoma are trying to pull a cohesive state government back together

• SE California, Arizona, and western NM are a no-man's-land for the most part while the panhandle of Oklahoma is home to an active bandit kingdom

Codes & Roads (talk) 12:33, September 20, 2019 (UTC)Codes & Roads

I agree with what C&R said, but in my opinion Vermont would not united with the other states of New England, but it would create a New England Union that will serve as an economical, political and military block in the region, while helping Canada. Also Outer Banks could join too in a possible union, also we should talk too about the possibility that eventually some American states would join the ADC, one of the possible candidates in my opinion is Delmarva, as their hostility with Virginia could prove fatal for them, so their only assurance is to join the ADC in order to prevent any Virginian aggression. Alex (talk) 21:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I have responded below to each bullet point from C&R:

• Pasco Free State and Cascadia opt to join Oregon (US) rather than Victoria under pressure in 2014, Astoria does to after direct threat of annexation in 2016 as Victoria cites 'military aggression'.
  • Victoria and the USA have a generally friendly relationship. Both the USA and Victoria oppose Astoria's existing government and I don't see Astoria joining either nation. More than likely the two countries would launch a joint occupation of the country and split the territory.
  • Give the substantial population of Oregon, I don't think the US will merge these two countries into Oregon. More likely, I could see Cascadia becoming a separate state. I think it may be realistic for the US to split western Washington off from Lincoln and unify it with Pasco and San Juan as the State of Washington.
• US consolidates in Oregon and completes peaceful takeover of remaining parts of both Dakotas. Pushing into southern Idaho, Colorado, western Kansas, and eyeing resettlement/rebuilding of Minnesota. Future with Utah and Sierra Nevada uncertain, but angling to have both join as states.
  • I think the US will eventually control all of Oregon outside of the counties in Cascadia (which is headed to becoming a US State in the future) or Sierra Nevada.
  • The Republic of Lakotah is an independent state in the NAU, and I doubt that we will see any motion towards Lakotah joining the United States as a state.
• Victoria becoming more aggressive and considering invasion of Prince George as well as annexation of remainder of former Washington State not already in US hands.
  • Again, Victoria isn't aggressive towards nations that have good relations with it. Considering Prince George and Victoria agreed to split the Okanagan Confederacy in 2010, I don't see this happening. Neither Victoria or the US likely have the political interest in fighting a war over this region, and something to keep in mind is that Victoria is more developed, but the US has a much higher population and is nuclear armed.
• California sees the MSP more stable and expanding but still very 'Wild West', central California Republic more cohesive but a less extreme version of the fractured city-states found in Southern California.
  • Agreed. California will likely remain fragmented for decades to come. I could see the USA or NAU as a whole sending a peacekeeping force to the Californian Republic to help stabilize the region.
• Superior moves deeper into Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ontario, and especially Michigan but no other immediate conflicts.
  • The Treaty of Manchester banned Superior from expanding control of former Ontario outside of the referendum in Thunder Bay (which rejoined Canada) and the Windsor Corridor.
  • Expansion into northern Minnesota is highly likely, Superior will likely be interested in controlling the Iron Range in northern Minnesota. Expansion into southern Michigan is also highly likely.
  • It will probably use the Republic of Wisconsin to further expand through the former state. I think in the long run, the Republic of Wisconsin will unify with the Republic of Superior.
• Toledo Confederation expands but still a local power, it is sandwiched between Superior, Kentucky, Virginia, and Pennsylvania with little other place to grow.
  • I agree regarding the Toledo Confederation, I could see it becoming similar to how Singapore functions. It is a financial center for the region and has a strong military, but the territorial control is very limited.
• Pennsylvania is united and growing even into southern New York, though Virginia controls the SW part of the old State and Delmarva controls road links into and through old Philadelphia.
  • Pennsylvania, as I am reorganizing it, is splitting down two lines: Gettysburg and the southwestern part of the state is leaning or controlled by Virginia. The rest of the state is leaning towards Delmarva and Canada.
  • Lehigh, Reading, and Susquehanna are rapidly headed towards unification, primarily given the fact that North Penn and State College are much larger.
  • Lehigh, North Penn, Reading, State College, and Susquehanna are headed towards a major economic, military, and political alignment. The Williamsport Conference in 2019 saw these nations agree to some general guidelines, agree to firm borders, and both an economic and military alignment to oppose the East American Alliance and give the region more leverage economically with Canada.
• Vermont merges with Outer Lands, Arastook, and Northern Townships to a Republic of New England based out of Brattleboro, heavily Vermont but not entirely. Strong ties to northern New York and helping them rebuild albeit slowly.
  • This is unlikely, it was brought up in the past and the region seems likely to remain broken up. Vermont will (and probably should have) expanded into New York by now.
  • Vermont being neutral will likely play a major role in this region remaining more divided. However I think they will still see economic and security cooperation.
• Hannibal, Quad Cities Alliance, and Republic of Lincoln opt to form Great Plains Federation in response to feeling sandwiched between Kentucky, USA, and Superior. Settlers push into SE Minnesota, northern Kansas, central Illinois and ruins of Chicago/Gary/Milwaukee, southern Wisconsin, and Missouri north of the river of same name. Capital to be Booneville just west of former Des Moines or maybe Des Moines itself if the radiation is low enough.
  • The QCA and Hannibal are both headed for US statehood to my understanding from the creator. I don't know if the two countries will be merged into one state or rejoin as the states of Iowa and Missouri.
  • I agree that Lincoln will try to form some alliance to oppose the NAU and remain independent of the organization.
• Delmarva grows to include the southern half of New Jersey and the ruins of Norfolk, VA. They also control (what's left of) the old DC ruins as well as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel, which somehow survived and is now open to traffic once again.
  • Regarding territory: I agree. I also believe that it will expand further into the former state of Virginia which will bring it into conflict with the Republic of Virginia.
• Virginia continues to grow into old SE Virginia but otherwise is focused on its population and infrastructure
  • I suspect Virginia will overextend itself as it tries to box in its neighbors with territorial extension. I think it will try to rapidly expand into the eastern part of the former state of Virginia but will start to see social and economic repercussions, as well as organized resistance of local communities and raiders opposing the militaristic society of the country.
• Kentucky is absorbing small survivor communities at an astounding rate (mostly at their request!) and controls about a quarter of Arkansas, a quarter of Ohio, a third of Missouri, about 2/5 of Illinois, the western half of Tennessee, and at least half of Indiana. They also have influence in Mississippi and northern Alabama, which are tiring of the 'New Confederacy' in Muscle Shoals. Discussions are underway in Elizabethtown about whether to create more states or pursue some greater combination, especially as Lexington is almost half a million strong and even broken Louisville is beginning to come back to life once more.
  • I think Kentucky will expand more, but that much expansion in a short period of time isn't likely, especially that many of these regions have low population densities or poor organizations for the country to leverage off of.
  • I think Arkansas and Indiana are realistic.
  • I don't think it will expand as far into Missouri, being buffered by Hannibal.
  • I think it is more likely it controls northwestern Tennessee, but half the state seems a bit much, again given the fact the state hasn't had the opportunity to really stabilize.
  • I could see Kentucky breaking the former state of Kentucky up into two or three states. Most of its population in the country is likely in Kentucky. In OTL, the regions in the former US state of Kentucky that the country of Kentucky controls has a population of around 1.5 million people with around 917,000 in the region outside of Louisville (639k in the Bluegrass Region; 196k in the Jackson Purchase, 586k in the Pennyroyal Plateau [including Louisville], and 79k in the Western Coal Fields). If we estimate this as still holding true in the ATL, the state would have around 35.5% of the national population. For reference, California, which in OTL composes the largest percentage of the US population has around 12% of the total national population.
  • I think it would be plausible to see Kentucky split the former state into the Bluegrass Region as one state and the remaining regions as a separate state. The eastern portion (Bluegrass Region) could have the state capital in Bowling Green and the western portion (Jackson Purchase, Pennyroyal Plateau, and Western Coal Fields) could have the state capital in Lexington or Covington (if they wanted to avoid making Lexington too critical)
  • The eastern state would have a population of around 640,000 people and the western state would have a population of around 560,000 people. No ideas for names though.
• East Tennessee out of Morristown, Blue Ridge out of Franklin, and the Piedmont Republic out of Greenville are prospering with steady growth. While the latter two grow into their former states, East Tennessee is considering its future carefully, and proposing a spaceport out of the old airport at Tullahoma given the rail access and state of Cape Canaveral.
  • I don't think a spaceport is realistic at the moment, space travel has been severely hampered in this ATL.
  • I think long term a regional alliance to counter Virginia and Kentucky is likely.
• A strong survivor state was found in Greenville NC controlling much of the coast between Wilmington and Virginia. They are isolationist to the point of being xenophobic though large convoys of well-armed travelers are left alone. Smaller groups and especially individuals travel at their own risk, the leadership are former US military and (former US military-trained) criminals with very little empathy or sense of morals. Universally the area east of I-95 in North Carolina is left alone for now, these brigands travel as far as Norfolk, VA; Savannah, GA; and Raleigh NC
  • Surviving US military personnel's effectiveness outside of organized countries from pre-Doomsday will be dropping off significantly by this point in the timeline. It's been 38 years since Doomsday, even 18 year olds who were fresh out of boot camp on Doomsday will be in their mid-50's. Without modern medicine, degrading military hardware and expended munitions, and likely irregular food supplies, I don't see their effectiveness holding up more than a few years after Doomsday.
• Rome is now capitol of the Restored State of Georgia, negotiations with Neonotia are well underway with a proposal to rebuild Macon as the capitol and unification in either 2025 or 2030. Southern Georgia and southern Alabama are stable with the capital of Neonatia (Americus) now over 100,000 strong though Valdosta is still larger.
  • Rome would likely still be limited to the northwestern and far western reaches of the state. Atlanta being targeted by several warheads and fallout effectively cut the state in half. I think reunification is plausible.
  • Would Jimmy Carter still be alive in ATL?
• Florence is discussing the same though the state of Birmingham and Montgomery mean that Selma is likely to become the capital of a Restored Alabama around the same time. Neonotia wants to join the US, and while Rome is amenable, Florence is not and Muscle Shoals DEFINITELY is not, ironically they compete for the same territory and claim almost exactly the same borders.
  • Just a note: Muscle Shoals is a city in Alabama and I believe it is under the jurisdiction of the Florence government, not an independent country. It was ceded to the CSA government and returned to the state when the CSA collapsed in 1999.
  • I think the situation would be a bit more complicated than that. I think the nations might be more amenable to rejoining the USA, but would desire a firm land border to allow for safe passage of representatives, as well as greater autonomy for the states.
• Florida has expanded to include everything but the Panhandle west of Tallahassee, Canaveral itself, and the ruins of Lauderdale and Miami
  • Agreed.
• Northern Mississippi is essentially a satellite of Kentucky but Louisiana, now in control of its home state, is encroaching on the eastern bank of the river. Hattiesburg has united the surrounding communities and controls much of the area along the coast. Central Mississippi is still a bit unsafe.
  • Given it's fair isolation, I don't think it would be a satellite of Kentucky. It would probably have trade and security agreements, but the state seems to have strong ties with other former Confederate state governments as well.
• Texas is growing into its former boundaries (and controls much of New Mexico east of the Rio Grande if only by default) while Arkansas and Oklahoma are trying to pull a cohesive state government back together
  • I think that much expansion in 10-12 years is a bit too rapid, much of the northern and southeastern part of the state were uncontrolled in 2012 when the Republic was formed. I think it would probably focus on the northern counties to obtain a land border with the NAU. While it declined to join, I think the state would recognize the economic strength of the alliance and would seek positive trade and security ties.
  • Hot Springs in Arkansas is likely to expand to encompass much of the former state.
  • The panhandle of Oklahoma is a US state, and there are a handful of other survivor states. I don't know if Oklahoma will end up unitying as an independent country or split up between the US, Texas, and independent countries.
• SE California, Arizona, and western NM are a no-man's-land for the most part while the panhandle of Oklahoma is home to an active bandit kingdom
  • The Oklahoma panhandle is the US state of Cimmaron.
  • SE California is Balkanized into a dozen or so states ranging from liberal democracies, to military dictatorships, to slaver states.
  • Arizona seems to only have two survivor states: Prescott and Dinetah. Prescott is recognized as the successor state to Arizona, controlling the central part of the former state (probably only parts of Yavapai County) and Dinetah controls the former Four Corners region in Arizona. More than likely this region will remain heavily depopulated due to the harsh environment.

Daeseunglim (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Election 2024

President Hetikamp's is set to finish her first term is memory serves right. How will she be judged for these last four years? Assumingly, nobody from the Dems will be primarying her, and there aren't any third parties with large enough numbers to pose a threat. Considering the enlarged Union (US, that is), there is a much wider pool of potential candidates to pull from this time around. With Heitkamp in office, what will the Republican agenda be? Arstar (talk) 04:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)