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I love the flag, anyway :) Benkarnell 00:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


Nuclear Strikes

If it is allowed to me do a commentary. I am in disagreement with the location of the impacts. The Soviet intelligence had to know that both Bilbao and Barcelona were the principal areas of nationalistic movements in 1983, movements of leftist type, it had been counter-productive them to destroy at par that the Spanish State. On the other hand. The USA tape-worm base in Saragossa, Torrejon (close to Madrid), Moron (near Seville), and Rota(near Cadiz), that look like to me the more probable in case of a nuclear assault. Therefore I propose Saragossa, Madrid, Moron, Rota and also probably Cartagena, sedate of one of the general captaincies in which is divided militarily Spain in that time and maybe Valencia, Malaga or Gibraltar (while British base).

I'm not so sure the Soviets wouldn't target those cities in 1983. I'm not that knowledgable about Spanish politics in the 80s, but I don't think the Soviets would pass over Chicago just because its controlled by a leftist party. In an all or nothing war like WWIII would be I don't think anyone would care about local politics. Even the US State Department predicted that if WWIII happened in the 1980s, the Soviets were likely to attack China and they were a Communist state. Mitro 13:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mitro.

I appreciate the trust to let me work on this project.

First of all sorry because I have not explained well in my speech, my English is not very good and I used an automatic translator too basic.

My objections were about the location of impacts on the Spanish territory, not about the number of explosions. Six impacts are enough to destroy Spain, twelve would be excessive. (Do not overdo the number of impacts, or would end completely with life on the planet). My assumption assumes that Spain would in any case a secondary target for attacks from the Warsaw Pact, and that these would aim rather to overturn the nation's defensive capabilities rather than its annihilation. Knowing that the U.S. has military bases in Zaragoza, Torrejon, Moron and Rota, it is logical to think that these would be the priority. In particular the Torrejon base is adjacent to Madrid with an explosion that would affect both. A case similian would occur in the other bases because of its relative proximity to major provincial capitals as Seville or Cadiz. The explosions also caused damage to nuclear plants Garoña, Almaraz, Zorita, Ascó and Vandellos, damage caused radiation leaks which were added to the pollution already caused by the impacts already mentioned.

It is a complicated issue... and it´s not my intention to work already performed. If you opt for remain intact Barcelona and Bilbao, the main core of independence movements, it is logical to imagine that they gained strength for the independence of their regions, while the rest of Spain would be helpless. But to continue this line would be invalidated the creation of "Greater Andorra" or small Euskadi in former France. Thus it is almost better leave it alone. Similarly, I think also be best not to destroy Cartagena, to facilitate its occupation as naval base or station of the League of Nations, as has been pointed out. Other targets as Valencia or Malaga finally I seem irrelevant.

Then my sketch on the possible targets of nuclear attack would include the previously mentioned American bases in Zaragoza, Madrid-Torrejón, Morón (Sevilla would affect as much as other cities of western Andalucia), Rota (which affect the whole Andalusian coast to the Strait of Gibraltar), Barcelona and Bilbao, with the addition of Gibraltar, a total of seven impacts. I wish that my opinion would be useful.

My knowledge about the history of Western Sahara and the Polisario is basic, but go to work and some research on it. I think that would be an interesting idea the fussion of two opposing cultures as hispanic and saharahui.

Also, I would like to offer my sketch of the situation in the Iberian Peninsula and the successor states of former Spain and its relations with the surrounding environment, as soon as you confirm a definitive liste of nuclear targets.

Nice to write you.

I made some changes based on your comments. I would suggest, however, to bring this up on Talk:1983 Doomsday. The other contributors would probably want a say in what the target list for Spain is going to be. Mitro 17:27, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Polisario

I've been looking for information on the Polisario and the situation in Western Sahara, I have found that the territories it controls this armed group does not correspond with those given in the general map, unlike the territory controlled by Pais del Oro corresponds to the territories now controlled by Morocco. If the remnants of the Spanish army with the Polisario to Morocco snatch get their side of the Sahara.., do not dominate a larger territory that included southern region and also the oasis of Tindouf in the Algerian territory? (Polisario's main logistics base in the event of an unbundling of Algeria would gain autonomy). Deputy link..http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rep%C3%BAblica_%C3%81rabe_Saharaui_Democr%C3%A1tica (is in Spanish, but includes an interesting map). If unchanged the general map, we must to think about an explanation to resolve this incoherence, the most plausible would be a split between a group Polisario independence and another supporter of union with the new Pais del Oro.Tristanbreiker 11:04, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Spanish Mainland

Concerning the situation in Spain I have been invited to refer this question in this discussion page, skipping the fact that Spain is in Europe and despite the claims of Pais del Oro over the former Spain do not seem to succeed. (on the contrary the case of Portugal). So....I have to develop enough this theory. My suggestions of successor states of Spain (considering the most likely target for nuclear impacts, evacuation routes, natural resources, the dominant direction of the winds that often fall from the Atlantic and the mountainous terrain) are: In the northwest, the most protected (where possible) the impacts of nuclear and electromagnetic pulses could be developed states in the regions of Galicia, Asturias and northern Castilla-Leon. In other less protected areas, but far from the core of impacts such as Extremadura, south-east around the provinces of Murcia, Almeria, Alicante and the Pyrenees could also develop other states, although not as strong as those of the Northwest. Here is my imaginary list of countries:


Spanish mainland

Republica de Galicia (Galician Republic). The most powerful of the successor states, on good terms with Celtic Alliance and Portugal. Galicia was the only autonomous government in 1983 remained intact. Military bases that the Spanish army had in Ferrol, Marin and La Coruna failed to impose authority and were finally evacuated in 85. After nearly a decade of internal conflicts got reunited and expanded, intervening in Asturias and Leon (claiming possession Bierzo Valley, rich in coal mines).

Republica de Asturias. Republic of Asturias. Possibly a client state of Galicia.

Republica Unida de Castilla y Leon (Castilla and Leon United Republic). In conflict with the previous two. The most recent of the States of former Spain. Born as result of the union of local councils of Leon, Reinosa and other small powers of the Picos de Europa mountain range.

Confederación Iberica o Unión Iberica (Iberian Confederacy or Iberian Union). Born as the union of local Juntas (councils) of Jaca, Tudela, Calahorra against Basque invasion in 1985 won halt their advance. Gradually acquired power and extended by incorporating other local councils as Calatayud, Siguenza, Medina, Molina de Aragon and Soria. Recently absorbed the Junta of Benasque in the central part of the Pyrenees, until rival of Andorra. Claimed the Ebro valley that so far remains a contaminated area as a result of a bomb blast at Zaragoza.

Spanish Republic or Spanish National Government in the southeast, an heir of Franco's fascist dictatorship that after the occupation of Cartagena by the LoN is forced to initiate a democratization process and to initiate talks with Pais del Oro for the reunificacción of former Spain.

And Euskadi of course, but it is in former France, but could control the northern part of Navarra. Tristanbreiker 11:17, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

This is what I expected to happen -- somewhat giving ETA a reason to cease to be since the basque people are now "free".
Don't forget Andorra Grande. Nota Bene: I suggested that there were warlords to the South, East and West following Doomsday. I'll be happy to work with you to make sure your vision for Spain and my vision for France match up. Louisiannan 16:15, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
Of course! I have not forgotten Andorra, I think of often. I appreciate any collaboration. It would be interesting to start an estimate on the number of French refugees would flee to former Spain. Regarding the issue Basque ... This is a very delicate and hurt many sensitivities. In my opinion indeed it would lose its reason to be but somehow intervene as a kind of guerrilla, with independent Basque state or in parallel with they.Tristanbreiker 12:10, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Tristan -- the center of Spain is amazingly not populated at all -- is it a state of war and feuding warlords, or has it been nuked? It would help if you went ahead and marked the places that were nuked/irradiated on your map, just so we can get a feel. Louisiannan 16:44, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Surely. I´m working in a new map more accurate. Tristanbreiker
Make sure you work on it from the version I updated, or that you include the updates I made. A pleasure collaborating with you, Tristan! Louisiannan 18:54, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
I inserted a new map, until I can find a map that satisfies me but I'll settle for this, I have indicated in grey partially inhabited areas, held by bandits, guerrillas, small communities, nomad families and minor warlords. An area of mobile and variable population known as "the carousel". In white are the dead areas, heavily contaminated areas where human occupation is inadvisable. Because much of Biscay and the Basque Country have been affected by radiation have erased part of that line of expansion, I have left a narrow strip of coastline at the mouth of Nervión river if they want to have a presence in the territory, but not I advise holding still Bilbao.

Pais del Oro

The events leading to the foundation of Pais del Oro are closely related to Morocco. Morocco despite not having nuclear explosions has suffered radioactive contamination that forced him to evacuate a certain number of northern cities like Tangier, Tetuan and Larache. This internal migration adds to the outside mainly from Portugal and Spain. And it can not be controlled by the Moroccan government is forced to retreat to Marrakech in the autumn of 1984, in the southern part of the country. Rabat, Casablanca, Fez and Meknes fall into the hands of Islamist groups uncoordinated. While separatist groups of berbers become strong in the Rif, assisted by the spanish of Melilla who manage to establish a state well-stopper. Previously to this events in spring of 1984 a large number of spanish and portuguese refugees were transferred to camps in the south in order to prevent xenophobic riots in the cities, as not only did not stop these riots, but also caused the refugees at the end took up arms with the help of the Polisario, leading to the creation of Pais del Oro.

You certainly have put a lot of thought into this Tris. Why not try working on this article (and maybe others) and put them through the proposal process? Mitro 18:09, September 7, 2009 (UTC)
So far I develop these ideas and editing as I go along. I wait awhile in case someone still can contribute ideas or corrections, while, I'll practice creating profiles of countries and personalities.Tristanbreiker 08:27, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

I am adding some data these days with articles about Spain and its surroundings, Rif Republic and other names of figures are from the OTL, since the structure of the Spanish army has changed much since 1983 until now I find it difficult to get documentation I beg patience.Tristanbreiker 14:33, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

candidate profile

I found this interesting profile: in OTL their situation in 83 most likely survived the attack, his knowledge of Arabic and his experience in the colony of Spanish Sahara in the 70's I think is the ideal candidate to lead negotiations and military action which are necessary to melt the mixed state Saharan-Hispanic. You can see his little biography in [1]

Morocco coast

Don't you think it makes sense for Pais del Oro to control at least the coast of Morocco? Unless there is a Morocco controling it... which we don't have a page of. Or maybe Morocco would join Pais del Oro? Any which way, we have to figure out what happened to Morocco. --DarthEinstein 17:40, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Morocco continues to exist, has gone through a period of civil war in parallel with the war (or wars) it had with Pais del Oro. He also had complications with the assimilation of a large immigration from Europe and North Africa (Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc. ..), Because of these circumstances has lost much of his territory: The Sahara seized by the joint forces of the Polisario and the remaining Spanish Army, the Rif by separatist forces with the help also of the former Spanish army, and also other areas where Islamist groups have taken control. Moreover Pais del Oro has not wanted to make gains in the rest of Moroccan territory because of the hostility of the locals. Their policy is directed against the splitting of the Polisario wich was formed in nearby Algeria in Tindouf and which also controls part of the territory of the former Western Sahara. There is also an intervention into the ancient territory of Mauretania to take control of the iron mines of F´derîck, in a short distance from the border edge. But the main reason the policy of nonintervention in Morocco is that the military forces of Pais del Oro are already deeply engaged in efforts to reconquer the spanish mainland and in fulfilling its obligations as a member of the Atlantic Defense Community. Tristanbreiker 17:53, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
But they still control the city of Melilla and the Baelaric isles, even though they're separated by the hostile state? --DarthEinstein 19:27, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
Pais del Oro naval superiority holds together their territories. Melilla is protected by the Republic of the Rif that acts as a buffer stateTristanbreiker 20:04, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
Fair enough. I was just confused by their strange borders. --DarthEinstein 01:52, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
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