Section 31

Beware, the founder of the Section is here!! - [1]

Finally, somewhere Imp can put all random ideas that comes to his head, yay!! Now to the serious stuff: This sandbox is of Imperium Guy, he's got some great ideas ;)

According to him, anybody can comment on the talkpage on his ideas or anything else!

Saved stuff


My pick of Polandball.


Barack, not Barry

A timeline inspired by the what if? of Obama's dad not dying in the car crash that killed him in OTL and the alternate destiny of Barack Hussein Obama, the current President of Greater Kenya.

The Federation of Greater Kenya is a Federation of nations below the Horn of Africa. Uniting under the capable hands of President Obama, who has lead the country for a record 3 terms and right now is completing his fourth term in office, it has become the leading power in Africa. The country has forced the South Africans to keep pace with a country which is rapidly becoming more than just a regional power.

Kenya was in shambles when Barack Obama took control of the country after winning its elections. Being a young leader (some thought too young), and getting the ticket only due to his and his father's connections within the parties, it was thought by many that nothing could change.

Two Large Germanies

Two Larger Germanies
The end of World War II was a shady place. As Germany was being divided, many things hung in the balance. The Russians wanted more of Germany than what they had, while the Western Allies were not willing to give up their portion to Russia. Stalin wanted his side of Germany to be able to compete with its Western Rival.

He saw one option. The Poles wanted a part of Germany that had been German for over 100 years, if not more. But they didn't need it, did they? Of course, this could lead to a more powerful Germany under his control which could rebel, but if he played his cards right they could become a great aide, Stalin thought.

I might make this into something like this. Also really cool is this.

For Honour and Pride

An unknown PoD allows the establishment of a strong Sikh state which successfully launches rebellions against the Mughal Empire and combined with the Maharathas cumilates in the destruction of Mughal power much earlier than 1707.

Ranjit Singh would become the Punjab's greatest leader and would help to turn the kingdom into a world empire in his long span as leader. Just a vague idea inspired by Ranjit Singh Lives.

Islands in the Sea of Time

What if Hong Kong and/or the UK were transported back into time. An interesting idea inspired by the "Island in the Sea of Time" (note lack of s). 

If both were transported at the same time to a certain time period, how would the develoment of history be altered? Would the United Kingdom become an European Empire? Would Hong Kong unite China? Would Hong Kong and the UK band together - or become rivals?

A Leader Not a Preacher

What if King Siddartha had been exposed to pain and suffering early on from his life, thus allowing him to develop an understanding of it in an early age? By the time he became an adult, he would know of the harsh realities of suffering and would become the "great king", not the great sage. As a result, Buddhism would never be founded and Siddartha's kingdom would grow to become one of the largest empires of the era. Which nation he was born into will be need to looked into.

Red Sun

The following information is the planned Star Trek universe in the Red Sun althistory. Actually realised Crim ha put some stuff down for Star Trek already so that will have to be incorporated too.

Initial contact

  • First contact: 4th April 2403
  • First race to be contacted: Vulca-Romulans
  • Fiirst to establish contact: Henry Archer


  • First warp ship: The Firefox
  • First warp-5 ship: NX-01 Enterprise
  • First warp-7 ship: NCC-001 Enterprise


  • Jon Archer in command of: UES Enterpise and USS Enterprise
  • Kirk in command of: USS Enterpirse-C
  • Picard in command of: USS Enterpise-D and E

Planets (and colonization)

  • Dual planets Vulcus and Romulus - Homeworld[s] to the Vulca-Romulus (Vulcans) race
  • Terramyde and Greenland - Homeworlds of the Humans
  • Qo'nos - Homeworld of the Klingons

More Locigal Plans

  • I know the Star Trek section finished above, but the planet's name being Terramyde means that the "Terran Empire" of the evil universe will actually take its name from its home planet itself, rather than OTL. Irony for you, heh?
  • Greenland is much bigger - at around 16,000 - 20,000km in diametre (compared to OTL Earth/Terramyde's 12,000km). Gravity will only have a slight increase however to around 1.2G. Now Crim wants Greenland to be covered in trees, and Greenland being the closest lifebearing planet to the sun might make it too warm. Thus it may be moved back the order or two.
  • The intro will be needed to be changed. Intro changed (I think). The early solar system actually had the Gas Giants of Saturn and Jupiter much further out of the solar system. It was by chance they got closer and displaced Uranus and Neptune further out. Uranus also doesn't exist so Neptune is larger and the Dark spot is permanenent. Changed the backstory of the planets by making them proto-moons that grew larger to become proto-planets and then fully fledged planets.
  • United Terramyde
    The geopolitical situation. Something we wished could happen. The gold is like a national colour for them (The Terrans!). Think about the Dutch obsession with Orange and put it on a planetary scale with a united government. Make sense now? The whole planet is basically run under a united government. Believe me, it didn't happen overnight. 
  • The last World War (don't know which one it is) ended with 45% (or should it be 60%?) of the world's population either killed as a direct or indirect result of the war. It would set the basis for establishing peace on a planet-wide scale and would herald in a new ear of co-operation and unity. Those who wanted to get away from the planet would begin emigrating from it to the planet of Greenland - which still has quite a few nations.
  • Due to the fact the ice on the poles of the planet consist of sea ice, almost all the land would be available for early human colonisation, unlike a complete continent being covered under ice in OTL. This would allow for the other two satient species on the planet to develop too, with giants on the isolated continent of Hinusja developing civilisation first.
  • Maybe we could combine Crim's obcession with Hobbits and make Dr Who have a Hobbit doctor, rather than a British one or one with the same nationality of Doctor played throughout.

Yellow Sun

It is one of the more prominent work of althistorians int he "Red Sun" universe. Detailing how if their home star was a smaller, yellow (Class K?) sun the planetary order would be vastly different.

Species and Climate

This turned out to be more complicated than I expected, mainly because I wished to have some basis in real world biology. 

Ecological copy
Turns out trying to figure out the deserts of the planet were even harder. This is an approximation at best and if someone knows how ecological climates work and how they are affected by mountains and large bodies of water please message me and help!

The brown areas are meant to be deserts and green meant to be habitable and good soil. OTL mountain ranges have been assumed to be in place (so the Himalayas are still to the north of India in the map - or would it be east?)

The lines on the map are the Tropics and the Equator respectively and were used as a reference to make the deserts, while mountain ranges were tried to be kept in mind along with large bodies of water.

To calculate the rotational period of the planets, Kepler's square inverse law os gonna have to be used, i.e T squared is proportional to r cubed.

Hindustani Raj

See main article: Hindustani Raj

NOTE: All this isn't in a logical order, and I will fix this later.

Please take note, almost all of this might be bullshit non-canon. 

With Hemu in charge, South Asian history goes in a new direction:

  • Much less Islamic or Buddhist influence in South Asia, due to a strong hindu empire staying alive through the PoD. This would eventually lead to an Empire of Hindustan in Southeast Asia which would in time reform itself into the Union of Hindustani Republics.
  • More focus on Australasian and Canadian colonization. Result: around 50 million Australians, 20 million New Zealanders and 50 million Canadians but only around 50-55 million Britons, 300 million Americans and 5 million Irish.


I have had a brilliant idea for Israel and Adolf!! It is a fact that Hitler's dad Alois had a surname of Schicklgruber before he had it changed to Hitler. In my timeline, he keeps his surname to Schicklgruber and is a Jewish man (as his father in this TL is Jewish). When he fathers Adolf, he is working as a customs official and is a harsh and strict parent (like OTL).

At the age of 18, Adolf - a few months before Alois died - had a major argument with his father. He was angry at how his father could just work for the Germans and stay under their thumb being a Jewish man. It was this argument which lead Adolf to vow to create a homeland for all the Jews living in Germany and other parts of Europe.

Over time, Adolf gains influence within the government and helps begin programs to help Jews emmigrate to the Territory of Israel (it had been bought from power x). He would become the first leader of the pround Jewish nation of Greater Israel and would see to the fact that the country would stay together in its initial turbulent years. Being a fanatical Jew, he would have Harold's Temple rebuilt (and maybe destroy the Dome of the Rock).

Israel would be a protectorate of Germany until the modern-day, due to Adolf's stance that Israel needed European backing to save it from invasion by muslim powers.

Differences from OTL

  • The Union of Hindustan is 90% Hindu, 8% Buddhist and 2% Muslim. Due to such a high number of hindus, when Cambodia came under the control of the Raj, the temple of Ankor Wat was restored into the Hindu temple it would have been in its heyday.(?)
  • Due to a strong Hindu Empire, SE Asia never comes to be dominated by Muslims, and is mainly Hindu. The country would only come to be reformed into a secular nation sometime between 1930-60s(?)
  • With a powerful nation established in India when the Brits came aknocking, the British never manage to establish an Empire in India, only holding a Hong Kong type island-city somewhere along the coast. This butterflied into them having to pay more attention to their American colonies and investing in their African colonies. (yea still works).
  • The British never tax the Americans that heavily. Over 40 years of disputes would eventually lead to the British giving into the American demand of representation and in the early 1800s, America would have representatives in Westminister. (yea can link into top).
  • Racism is much less accepted (the world is 40 years ahead of us in that regard). This is the primary reasons why Commonwealths like the Dutch and British ones exist in the first place and have OTL African nations a part of them. (maybe, developed brown nations might change attitudes towards Indians but perhaps not toward other races)
  • Through the era, a new type of ideology was born, National-Federalism. It is based on creating a national identity out of areas which would not have much in common by giving those areas a common language and religion. Most world powers have this ideology in place and as a result, the world is a calmer place. (?)
  • A form of apartheid still exists in Germany, which states blacks and whites cannot inter-marry. However, that is where the similary ends, with whites and blacks being allowed positions in the government and companies according to merit and not race. (this I like, probs will remain).
  • Germany could be compared to the USSR before ATL 1960s (although it was no where near as oppressive or mean). One of the last nations to reform in the Swinging Sixties, pre-reformation Prussia could have said to be like Russia, Austria like Kazahistan and Bohemia like Ukraine. The reformation was like the OTL planned New Union treaty, apart from the fact it is successful here. Modern day Germany ATL should be compared to the UK, with Prussia being England, Austria Scotland and Bohemia a mix of Ireland and Wales. (eh?)
  • The Reformation years of the 60s started with the evolution of Dutch territories in Africa into member status. The countries have their own Statten-General, and send representatives to the main Commonwealth one.
  • The Dutch reformation started off a domino effect in Europe. The British United Commonwelath was the next to follow, with Kenya asking for member status rather than independence. The last nation to be affected was Germany.
  • Blacks gain respect in the eyes of Brits when they fight for Britain (as they are no colonial Indian troops). This was one of the factors to the African nations gaining member status. (could work)
  • With less funding going into the military, most rivalries would be spacebound. Therefore the Space Race starts earlier and progresses faster. As a consequence, military tech lags behind OTL, while a way to create Artificial gravity has been discovered using electro-magnetic fields. (dunno, need a prolonged cold war for such progress).
  • Hybrid CNG/electric cars exist in large numbers, with almost all of Indian automobiles being CNG/electric hybrids (a significant number of Indian cars in OTL are actually powered by CNG and LPG, maybe as much as 50% - OTL). (yea works).
  • Thorium is the preferred nuclear fission fuel, with most nuclear plants using Thorium and not Uranium to run their power plants. As a result, nuclear powerplants are widespread and most energy is derived from nuclear power. (yea cause this be cool).


Hemu was an excellent general and ruler in OTL who should have won the Second Battle of Panipat, but fate was kind to the Mughals. With the arrows missing Hemu, the Mughals would lose - they would be routed. Hemu was raised in a strict Hindu family and he was not said to be of too high a family, therefore it would make sense he would establish a Hindu empire. He would adopt the name Vikramaditya, and he would become Vikramaditya II, first ruler of the Chandra dynasty.

I am unsure as to who his wife would be, but it would no doubt look to extend his influence and power. Apparently he was already married.

Random Stuff


Considering the PoD effects European powers differently, things might seem a bit illogical. Bear with me! Russia is mean and relcoates many of the troublesome minorities, as well as kicking out many Turkic ethnicities from Central Asia - who mostly most to Persia or Turkey. I'll also look at Nuke's TLs for inspiration relating to the ongoing stuff in Russia - and probably start to bug him about things again. Petey's Tricolour never becomes as important here and it is the Imperial tricolour which would later become altered and become adopted as the flag of the Empire.

But I have a problem. Which flag is better?

Flag of Russia (HR)
Flag of Imperial Russia (HR)

I have figured it out after talking to Nuke. The one on the left will represent the complete Russian Empire while the one on the right will represent the Eurasian half of the empire.

This tricolour comes into adoption because there is no Petey. Although there is someone like him. Ivan the Terrible (Ivan IV I think) wasn't the best leader of Russia. However, it would be Ivan V who would begin to bring greatness to the Russian Empire (yea, found out he was real and he co-ruled with Petey the Great - kinda annoying for me) and would adopt one of those two flags in the late part of the 1600s and the early part of the 1700s or sometime close.

The white-blue-red tricolor appeared in the 1690s as an imitation of western countries' ensigns (most obviously the one of the Netherlands), the black-orange-white tricolor appaeared in the 1850s as an imitation of the "Farben" of the Central European states (like Prussia and Austria). The latter flag being introduced 150 years earlier than in the OTL does not seem plausible, simply because in Central Europe hardly existed a tradition like that yet. — Hellerick Flag of Divnogorsk 02:11, October 23, 2013 (UTC)

Well I responded to Hellerick on his talkpage. The Russian Empire will continue to grow, and the First Manchurian War might actually take place some 2 centuries earlier in ATL - considering the Japanese will be in small sections of Siberia and control Manchuria. I will have Japan win - Russia will become way to tired after all those wars. The nation will focus its attentions back to Europe and go aconquering. By the early 1800s, those who haven't integrated into Russian society will be forced to leave the nation. Turks would head south, Poles and other East European Slavs who do not consider themselves Russians will probably move westward and head to the FSA - which would take them with open arms. The home islands will not be happy but it was them who gave the Americans the ability to have a degree of self-governance.

The Russians would also conquer many areas of the Ottoman Empire and would ensure that the Middle East would become a chaotic mix of many nationalities. They would help the Slavs in the region identify themselves as Russian though and would bring the many Churches in the area back to life. But this would eventually lead to a Turkic Supremesist becoming the leader of a rump Turkey (or Turkistan) - and the would would see another war.


I have no clue. BUT, the Brits still nick their territories in America. They lose Quebec and Louisiania through a few bloody wars and those who have set up home in those territories are forced to move to other sections of the continent by those pesky Brits. The Brits did begin to tax the American colonies a bit higher too, but transfered a significant amount of debt to the French...

They stay pretty isolationist in European matters and their colonies in Africa become a good spot for many Easter Europeans to migrate too. However, they didn't have as great lands as America did.


Is pretty darn powerful. It kicked Chinese ass sometime early and its invasion in 1592 (may be move to a slightly later date) helped it establish control over Korea and give it access to taking Manchu lands. It also established itself in Kamchatka as the nation was more stable and never really went quiet - Russia was always rumbling around.

But China does have a knack for pushing out foreign powers in Korea. Not only did they manage it in the OTL Korean war, they managed it in 1596 too. However, due to the two Portuguese gallons joining the Japanese side as well as the better management of the naval forces, the Korean navy is rendered weak after a couple of years of warring. This allows the Japanese to secure their supply lines as well as repeal the Chinese invasion and weaken the Ming. They would push on with their success and take some territory from China too, eventually using it as a mass to capture all of Manchuko.

Never really managed to establish any major colonies in the new world though but did try their hand at one in North America in Fort Ross (I'm not really being serious here but it would be a nice touch and pretty ironic too).


Well, America never manages to gain independence. The British go on to eventually allow them some sort of home rule - something like what Scotland or Wales had. This keeps the Americans happy and keeps the empire united. There is a large colonisation focus to the nation but there are only so many British who can emigrate - the boys down under are getting focus too.

Gold rushes begun though, bringing people from all over the world. Eventually, these people realise its too expensive trying to get out and begin to stayin the nation. What really helps America is the (two?) Great Expulsion(s?) in the Russian Empire. Large amounts of people from Eastern Europe are forced to arrive into the colony, along with the Germans who were already willing to come to the nation.

Them World Wars

Well, it can't really be the Germans - who seem to have a knack for creating world wars in other timelines too. It will be the Spaniards causing the trouble, and the broken Turks. There might be 2, might be 3 or even 4 world wars. Post the last World War, things will be pretty bad for the losers. For the Turks, problems will remain in scores. Persians will not be happy that they are being displaced by arriving Turks from the Great Expulsion. Things will really be quite bloody.

Not to say the Turks would get their asses kicked by a certain Jewish Leader named Adolf Schicklgruber and his nation of Israel. Although his nation would have to face against multiple attacks from Arabs and Turks and would have to play it mainly defensive, the nation would survive the last and most brutal world war.

Spain (and others)

Quite like Germany in OTL. They don't have possession of Catalonia - which it a separate nation. Their neighbour Portugal has taken some of their land after the World Wars when it was given it, but apart from that, they are doing well economically. Bit of a shell but are still trying to keep some influence in certain areas of the Mahgreb.

But now I am unsure if Portugal should take land from Spain or not. I planned them to be down in the, well, dumps too so I might end up with having them not take any land from Spain. But the Catalonians still become independent and they become pretty high up economically. Spain will have to rebuild extensively.

Catalonia would do well and grow into a nation of its own. They would become very good at storing money and develop a good system of banks. I think I might make them heavily neutral - into an OTL Switzerland, which reminds me...


I am not really sure if the Swiss would still exist as a nation. I find it an interesting concept to think what would happen if their little union would be destroyed. Yeah, I really do not like the Swiss sitting around and doing nothing. They are usually a constant in numerous timelines and this would allow me to have somethignvery different and something very unique.


So Ivan IV of Russia proposed to Elizabeth I of England? What would have happened if she had said yes? How would the world be like today or even then? I need to go ask LG! Oh my god - this might muck up all my plans!

This means Scotland stays independent, Russia and England would become major allies (in Personal Union too) and it might change North America completely! Think about it, if the Brits have no problems with allowing the Russians more land in North America, I might get an Alaska like in Russian America!

My Crazy Map

Crazy Map (HR)


This map is completely experimental so don't take it too seriously. I am just looking at possibilities. I will probably reduce the lands Slavia controls, and I might name it Hungary instead - or I might not. I will have to look into the establishment of Mozambique too, as well as Kongo. Pretty much the whole of the remainder of Africa needs to be worked out.


To do with Hindustani Raj (so I remember)

With Kogasa:

I saw that you needed help with your time-line. I could help out with Japan, if you like. -Kogasa Miko THPW2 Flag of Japan 2013年3月18日 01:46:29 (JST)

Maybe you could try to have a different clan winning? Like Oda Nobunaga could be killed somehow in one of his campaigns sometime in the early 1560s. Then later Takeda Shingen makes a pact with Tokugawa Ieyasu as usual, until Ieyasu decided to ally with his former enemy Imagawa Ujizane and Uesugi Kenshin. Takeda Shingen avoids getting an illness and dying, and manages to be there for the Battle of Mikatagahara. Tokugawa Ieyasu could somehow die during the battle and afterwards, Takeda Shingen would go on in uniting Japan. He could also possibly ally with Toyotomi Hideyoshi as well.

Or, the Sengoku would continue as normal and Hideyoshi would attempt to invade Korea in 1592. Maybe they could become successful instead, giving a chance for Japan to rise in power and influence.

Either way, Japan could also later on, expand into Karafuto and the Chishima islands, and maybe part of the OTL Russian Far East (like Kamchatka).

What do you think? -Kogasa Miko THPW2 Flag of Japan 2013年3月18日 02:46:17 (JST)

In that case, have Toyotomi's invasion of Korea become successful, and Korea would be turned into a vassal of Japan (for now). Therefore Japan could then become a bit expansionist, and they would expand into Karafuto, Chishima Islands, a bit of Kamchatka, and Taiwan (not all at once of course, it would take years). Japan would also compete in trade and such, and could also begin trading with the Portuguese and Dutch at first. Of course, while Japan would be willing to trade, they would not tolerate any European missionaries (similar to the Japan in A Darker Place). -Kogasa Miko THPW2 Flag of Japan 2013年3月18日 03:32:55 (JST)

With Chris:

Hey, Imp, so sorry for the late replies, I've had quite a lot of tests and assignments this week, not enough time to visit the Wiki. But I'm back currently! :)

Now, to your message: you have some compelling ideas. However, a few things:

  • What exactly is the correlation between an earlier-united Hindustan and the British being more involved in European and North American matters, enough to have the Americans not declare independence?
  • I assume that the Great Game between the Brits and the Russians would cause them some tension, however some of the competition was in the east Asia and India, so with India being independent, I'd see more competition between the two in Persia, China, and the Americas. So, I think, good call on Alaska. In my timeline, I'm having the British-Russian competition only to be more strained when Alaska is captured from the Russians. Here, I could see a more Russian presence in Alaska to prove they are not "inferior" to the British.
  • On France... this might be tricky. It really depends on why the Americans don't revolt. If, in France, there is a strong enough revolutionary wave, though not as strong as OTL, and you have these revolutionaries kill Louis XVI as OTL, you could have the British intervening and kick the revolutionaries' butt, have them restore the crown, cause some sort of isolation in the country, and I guess then you can have the British have greater say in European matters. Though I don't know how likely that is.

I'd love to help you, I just need to know more about what you had in mind for certain details :P. Regards, ChrisL123 (talk) 17:52, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Ahh, I figured that would be a factor in it. That makes more sense actually.

The Hanover-Prussian union... Hmm, see, if Britain is still in a personal union with Hanover (which actually I think they did not like), and then Hanover and Prussia get into a union, that would become a British-Hanoverian-Prussian union. If Prussia gets into a personal union with just Hanover after the British leave that union (I believe that was when Queen Victoria, a woman, ascended to the throne), I don't know if the Brits would still be allied to the Hanoverian-Prussians. I will have to look into the British-Hanoverian relationship (considering the Prussians OTL took over Hanover without much British help), but remember that Britain and Prussia did indeed have an alliance with the Netherlands, so them being allied is not out of the question.

The reason the Brits got involved in OTL is because of the death of Louis XVI. If Louis isn't killed, then likely no involvement unless they notice that the revolutionaries are actually gaining some ground. If Louis is killed, then international aid would be sent to the monarchists from other European monarchies until the revolution is stopped and a Bourbon king is on the throne again. The revolutionaries were able to avoid this... for some time. In ATL, without the Americans becoming independent, the support wouldn't be as large, but I don't know if you want Louis to be killed by them or not.

Indian colonial troops were indeed fighting in Afghanistan in the 1850s; that specific war was the Anglo-Persian War. They were fighting the Persians for them to retreat from Herat, Afghanistan; independent Afghanistan, which was needed so the British could have a buffer state between India and Russia from fear of a Russian takeover... which of course wouldn't happen ATL because they wouldn't own India. Since India seems to extend into Afghanistan in your timeline, I could see a greater interest in the British and Russians colonizing Persia, though I'm not that knowledgeable on Persian history enough to know if the British would ever get a colony out of the land. The Great Game ATL would probably be more a competition between the Brits and the Russians in Persia, China, and North America, and of course that might spill into Europe.

As for the colours, I believe I gave you the List of colors as a guide. But what I usually use now is Inkscape, they have an option to see the code for a specific colour you pick (if you have it I could explain it to you.) You've got an interesting timeline, and I hope to see more of it :P. ChrisL123 (talk) 00:58, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

With Nuke:

Greetings. Yes, it has been quite a long time since we last spoke. I hold no grudge with you, so you have nothing to worry about.

I am more than happy to help. However, I know very little about Indian history (especially pre-British history), so forgive me if I can't give you an exact path for Russia.

I assume that Europe and their colonial expansion is about the same, just with India remaining out of the colonial sphere. If that be the case, I assume that Russia would not be that different from OTL. Aside from that, not too sure what else to say (given the vagueness of your timeline at the present). The former republics of the USSR in question could be possible, though how they remain I can't say with the limited details. Karelia and Kamchatka not being part of Russia also depend on how Finland and Japan work.

My Russian America timeline is a different species all together; and could border on being ASB in some cases. With the British not having India (I assume), I doubt Russia could expand as they did in RA. At the most, probably just Alaska as in OTL (give or take). Russia's Fort Ross could maybe still exist; though it depends on who controls California, and how they react to a Russian presence. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:47, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

I see. If the US doesn't exist, than the Napoleonic Wars don't happen. If that be, Fort Ross would most likely not exist. Even with the British focused in Australia and Germany, them remaining in North America would probably mean that they would be able to push the Russians out of gaining California and the Oregon Country. I don't believe a Russian America on the scale as I have it in Russian America would be able to exist here, sorry to say.
However, a larger Alaska isn't completely out of the picture (if you know where to look). Despite being focused elsewhere, the British wouldn't allow Russia to claim Oregon, but they may be willing to give them more territory in the north. Russia historically claimed all territory north of the 51st parallel (more or less all the coast north of Vancouver Island). Pressure from the Americans and the British pushed them to the southernmost point of the Alaskan Panhandle today. The British would later "loophole" the Russians to the modern day border of Alaska (i.e., giving them their panhandle). With the Americans being out of the picture (making the Brits happy) and combined with them being focused elsewhere; they may be willing to a better border for Russia in this part of the continent.
Map of Alaska for Imperium Guy
While not much in comparison to what you wanted, this could allow the Russians to have complete control over the gold and oil to be discovered later on, making it much more valuable in the long run. Take a look at this and this, and you can see what I am thinking, with the British allowing all of North America west of the 130th meridian to belong to Russia. I hope you don't mind, but I made a map to explain what I am seeing. Russia would probably get more of the Yukon and the majority of Alaska. The yellow circles are the main gold rushes in this territory.
As for the rest of Russia, without the Napoleonic Wars, it would most likely mean that Russia would still be an empire ruled by the Tsar (so they would include what you have and more). Depending on how Japan and Russia develop, Kamchatka may or may not become part of Japan. Russia had their eyes on Manchuria, while Japan (early on) were quite happy to just get Hokkaido and the Kurils; so it depends on whether Japan would overtake Russia as a regional power like OTL. Finland would most likely remain a part of Sweden, meaning Russia would most likely keep Karelia. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:10, March 18, 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, just remembered. Which world maps are you talking about? Some can be found here. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:24, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Glad I could help. I do apologize that your idea for Alaska failed, but I am happy to see you like my suggestion.

I can't say much about France, aside from that they would most likely adopt a constitutional monarchy within a few decades after the French Revolution OTL. I am not an expert on the French. Try asking ChrisL123, that seems to be his field of expertise. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:21, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

With Red:

Yellowstone: 1936

See main article:

Russian Forum

Flag of Russian Forum

After Yank's (annoyingly locigal) intervention to swing the future of the HRE in a new direction - I have been inspired of an idea to partially re-create the Holy Roman Empire but in Russia. Seeing the fact the German threat would be too great for all the nations to just look by, they would all eventually be forced into a "Russian Forum". This Russian Forum would be an inportant "bloc" which would help maintain stability in the region and eventually help to once more unite the region.

At first, most nations would be at each others' throats. Many would invade each other and although some would grow in size, it would present the HRE with the chance to expand its borders after multiple nations had been left in ruins after continuous warring. This would leave many other nations with a dilemma - ehtier they could go on fighting and weaken themselves or they could actually come under the Russian Forum where they could remain independent but also have Russian protection. This would lead to the Russian Forum becoming an official entity with the power to affect those around it in April 1952.

As of 1973, the nations in the "Russian Forum" would be significantly less than what were present initially after a large amount of nations were either diplomatically swallowed up or united after seeing common goals and a need for each other. The HRE has implemented an education program which is necessay to be taught in schools and they have forced the other states to accept the Emperor as the head of the Russian Forum.


To do

  • Complete the page Lurker asked me to do months ago for Chinese World...
  • Add to Scraw's TL
  • Add to my TL
  • Design a page for Hindustani Aeronautics Limited -> Hindustani Automobile Limited and Tata Motors for DD
  • Do this in PMIII:
    • let croat literature take its swing
    • so by the time jesuits come along
    • you can write a ugro-croat grammar
    • A Marko Marulić-equivalent is born in the second son of the daughter of Sigismund the II, and becomes the father of Ugro-Croat literature, coming from the ruling family
    • Current dynasty + Gorjanski (Garai) = perfect machine to create Ugro-Croat writers
Hungarian Royal Family Plan 2(PMIII)

The plan is the simple family tree picture that I have put up here.

For my language problems - I am stumbling onto a situation. Ladislaus could be the key to it all. He travels around Croatia and Serbia and finds their languages are quite similar. He becomes interested in the root language - and when he finds it out (Serbo-Croat) - he knows he needs to make a script for it to ensure the whole region could write and read using the same language. He gets to work on it - using the Hungarian alphabet as a base. However, he adds letters to it to make it more pheonetic and makes a larger set of vowels. His script can be compared to Gaj's. With his language created, he writes the bible in it - translating it almost perfectly (it is the words of god after all) and presents it to the Monarch, who is so interested in the idea he endorses its use in churches. And that, is the beginning.

Following this, he also writes down all of the folk takes he hears around the Hungarian realm - in the language he hears them in. He collects hundreds of them and painstakingly makes note of them all. He then translates them all into his Ugro-Slav language and makes many volumes of them all. His works are well stored and he goes onto become a priest in a manjor church - helping to distribute all his ugro-slavic bibles and making it the written language of the chruch. The monarch standardises the bibles and all churches under his realm will use it.

Eventually the Serbians in Poland will begin to use this language, and because Poles are moving south too, Ugro-Slavic gains prominance in Poland itself. The Polish language has an effect on Ugro-Slavic and a dialect of it is created in Poland which will eventually gain sway and become more promimant. The Burgeoise will all end up speaking the language. All in 100 years' work.


Ladislaus reads through the numerous folklore tales he wrote down during his trips through Croatia. He notices some simillar motives in both Hungarian and Croatian tales. The motives of female beauty and other physical appearance are awfully simillar, while the color black is antagonized. This causes Ladislaus to believe that these stories and the people who came up with them share a simillar ancestry. Whilst comparing the current appearance of Hungarians and Croats, he notices that Croats have been becoming simillar to Serbs. This leads him to the conclusion that the ancient Serbians caused a schism between the brethren that became Hungarians and Croats, and as it is known, Croats are Slavs, which would make Hungarians Slavs too.

To keep

1943: Horten 229 The Horten 229 is completed by Nazi scientists. The Nazi Airforce begins to be rebuilt with these new jets. With the work on the Horten completed, work on nuclear bombs and the V2 rocket are increased tenfold again and again. The first completed Horten is called the SS Hitler in honor of the Fuhrer.

1944: A Soviet offensive is devastated by Nazi jets and early V2 rockets, killing over 720,000 Soviet troops, tanks, and planes in less than two days. The invasion of Italy begins by Allied troops but Nazi Jet and the first view versions of the V2 rockets destroy the transports and most of the invading forces as well as eliminating the Allied Naval and Air Force around the Mediterranean Sea. Nazi troops begin a new offensive against the Soviets and begin to drive back towards Leningrad and Stalingrad. With the early V2 Rockets and Stealth Fighter/ Bomber Jets, the two cities are literally reduced to rubble as Nazi missiles and bombs destroy everything in sight. Nazi troops triumphantly march into the ruins of both cities after the 3 day bombarding of the two cities. The Soviet Union begins to consider surrendering to the Nazis.

1945: The Allies attempt to invade Normandy in early Spring but it fails horribly due to the advanced Nazi Weaponry. With the Allies two huge invasion forces destroyed and the Soviets near the edge of collapse, Nazi Jets bomb the British countryside and most of the huge cities into the ground as the latest cyanide bombs are dropped along with traditional bombs, killing millions of British troops and citizens. Japan deals the final blow to China by killing both leaders of the two opposing factions, and all of China and Manchuria are annexed by the Japanese Empire. The Japanese begin to work on there own atomic bomb project.

1946: The Italian Army, finaly recovered after its attack by the Allies and aided by the Germans, annexes French Africa after Vichy France gives its aproval. Turkey offers the Nazis an alliance on the terms that it can split the balkans with Italy and reconqer its lost possessions and more. The Nazis agree and the Balkans are divided between Turkey and Italy. The Turkish capital is moved back to Istanbul while Turkish troops, tanks, and Nazi Jets are unleashed on Arabia and Persia. Egypt is secured for Germany as promised, and Tehran, the Persia n capital, is easily taken thanks to German and Italian help. Another attack by the Nazis on the Soviet Union takes Moscow and steamrolls its way to the Arctic Ocean, causing the Soviet Unions collapse and division between Japan and Nazi Germany while a small Russian remnant puppet state is set up between the Japanese and Nazi occupied sectors of the former USSR. At the same timke yet another wave of bombings is taken out on Britain, which cedes its entire empire excpet for some small concessions to the Axis Powers. This leaves only the Unnited States left against the Axis, and even as the Americans rapidly begin to withdraw from the Pacific, Jpanese Marines take over Hawaii in a 6 month battle. Australia becomes the Australian Empire and is enlisted as a Nazi Puppet State.

1947: Earth After WW2 Offers of peace are given to the United States, and after all are refused, the Nazi Submarines SS Fuhrer and the SS Hitlike launch the product of 4 years of continuous Nazi work, two V2 Rockets with nuclear warheads on New York City and Boston. The United States immediantly issues an uncondititional surrender, and the Treaty of Berlin is signed by the USA and the Axis Powers, ceding all of its Pacific possessions to Japan while Alaska and the continental US are all that remains of the Uinted States. The flag is changed to the below, 13 stars surrounding a Nazi Swastika. Washignton DC is occupied by a German "peacekeeping" froce of 200,000 men. Humiliated, the United States enters a period of Nazi Control known as, "Hitlers Reign".

Post War Era (1948-1960)

1948: The United States begins to rebuild New York City and Boston. But due to nuclear radiation from the bombs, thousands of workers die due to radiation sickness and inhaling radioactive dust. Construction of a new Statue of Liberty begins, only the torch of liberty will no longer be there but replaced by the Nazi salute.



I Had a Dream

Together We Stand

Since the dawn of the time of man, we have known the fact that divide leads us into chaos and bloodshed. Yet time and time again, this has been forgotten. Petty issues have led to warfare, issues which could be sorted through talking. Talking annoys many people, yet the fact remains, that talking solves many issues.

To Love

International Cricket Teams (DD)


  • Celtic Alliance
  • Essex
  • Cleveland
  • Woodbridge
  • Northumbria
  • Newolland
  • Wight and Sussex
  • Lancaster
  • Scotland

Europe is (more or less) covered.


  • Bermuda
  • East Carribean Federation
  • Canada(?)
  • Netherland Antillies (representing Netherlands)
  • Guyana Cooperative


  • Union Interim Parliament
  • Pakistan
  • Khalistan
  • Bangladesh
  • Tamil Nadu
  • Rayalaseema
  • Andhra Pradesh
  • Sri Lanka
  • Tamil Eelam
  • UAE
  • Qatar
  • Bharain
  • Afghanistan

Asia is covered too.


  • New Britain
  • RZA
  • KwaKhosa
  • KwaZulu
  • Azanian League
  • Kenya
  • South Zimbabwe
  • North Zimbabwe
  • Volkstaat
  • OFS
  • Waterboersland
  • Heiligdom
  • Tanganyika
  • Namibia 
  • GSWA

Africa is covered.


  • Australia
  • New Zealand
  • Papua
  • Fiji
  • Hawaii

Large number of cricketing teams have meant the ODI format has now been changed from 60 overs to 40 overs.


26 Jan - rousing speech by PM - many nationalities, one nation. blah blah blah. New forces again, ANZC guest of honour - cause I can make it so XD

BJP is kinda like subsidy of JP. Solves the Modi issue and allows for different JP candidate to be chosen. Arvind Kejrival will be good name - and he will win, cause new gen support for man to lead federation into new economic era.

RoY calls NPRC (Hubei) by Natioanlist Republic of Hubei. 

United Latino Nations? United Latino States?

The Green North

When GR comes back online, you know it's time to get working on The Green North.

Initial Ideas:

  • Nazi North Nazi Greenland
    • Nazi Bear Nazi-Greenland Company
    • Nazi Greenland Greenlandic Wehrmacht division
    • Facist Bear Greenlandic SS division
    • Nazi Naval Greenlandic Kriegsmarine division
Other stuff

NewDorsetFlag New Dorset - History of nation has been changed. Flag may be altered and possibly renamed.

GrinellaFlag Grinella - Does not exist. Flag remains for now.

New Ideas


Seeing the major issue in the timeline is climate, and how Chris stated that there is no northern icecap, I had an idea in solving the problem. Instead of making the sealevels rise significantly, they rise a small amount and instead most of the extra water goes into the atmosphere, helping to bring rainfall to parts of the world where the climate is dry. The main region I am looking at with the extra rainfall is the Sahara and the Outback. If the extra rain falls in the Sahara, I would think that Lake Chad would still be in existance, although probably smaller [slight obsesstion with it]. In the outback, it could help to create a similar sort of lake too, and allow for more moderate climates in the interior. The last region this impacts significantly is Canada (and perhaps Siberia?) and it allows for the Inuits to establish small settlements and nations like tribes in other parts of Northern America. They could perhaps be compared to the Maori of New Zealand in the fact that they will go on to become somewhat like them in modern Canada's history.

Its implications are the world is a wetter and warmer place, except the South Pole where Antartica has more ice than in OTL. Many smaller cultures develop in the regions around the world. The biggest change that comes to mind is when the Vikings come to Greenland and then to Canada, they manage to spread smallpox within the native population before they die out. Although this reduces their numbers, it leaves the Inuits immune, and so when the Europeans arrive in America, the effect of smallpox only occurs on those in OTL USA and Mexico while those in Canada are not affect as much - due to the inuits having immunity against the disease.

In Australia too, the increased rainfall allows for a few aboriginal settlements to form and eventually grow. However, they would not posses the immunity to smallpox the initial would and could be compared to the tribes of North America.

Danish Empire

Here there is a potential for a Danish Empire to form in the region. Due to the fact Iceland is actually warmer that in OTL, when the Danish claim it, they see the chance to actually populate it with colonists rather than a barren land. This becomes an important stopping point for them once they discover Greenland and they use it to colonise Greenland. With the success they have, they are able to maintain control over Norway and this allows them to have southern Norway a part of their main nation. The northern section will belong to the Swedes. The nation is saved from its fate after the Napoleonic Wars when it seeks to align itself with Russia after it begins to blame France for the loss of the majority of their navy. This takes place around 1812 and they become part of the secret negociations between Russia, Britain and Sweden. They grudgingly side with the Swedes when they see no option otherwise.

At the height of the empire, the Danish will control a respectable amount of lands with its people well on their way to colonising.


Now Chris had the Spanish in Greenland, but I am wondering whether if they would ever bother colonising a region which is so cold and so unlike what the Americas are like. Not to say most of their attention would be aimed actually at keeping their American colonies down. I will talk to Chris. I am looking to completely alter the French and Scandinavian sections of the island. I don't think I will allow the Spanish to ever gain land on the sub-continent.

Gold's Idea:

Maybe the Spanish Greenland colony should be a Dutch Colony instead. A more radical idea is that it could have been a colony of the Grand Duchy of Courland. However it is unlikely that they would secured such a large colony. Also a Grand Corland in Greenland would cause this timeline to seriously butterfly.

I replied to Gold on his talkpage. Although the idea of a Dutch Greenland is tempting, I probably won't have them colonise the sub-continent. So Spain will never gain the colony on the island in the end.

[New] Dorset

Seeing the flag of the nation actually gave me an interesting idea. I was thinking of making the nation a US-aligned nation, following its big brother through the flames of revolution and wars of independence - kickstarted by the heavier taxing. Although not going to become a part of the USA, it would be a better American-backed state than Grinella, which does not really seem to be able to play too big a part in Greenlandish and world history. The Federated States of Dorset and the Federation of Dorset - even the United Provinces of Dorset sound good for the nation. So many options! Of course, the flag will need to be sligtly altered. I was thinking of either removing the torch and putting in its place the star which was in the Grinella flag or having the the star and torch together. The colour of the stripes will have to be changed slightly too.


Clement Atlee for Prime Minster!

Rossland's Capital, Albia is referred to sometimes as the London of the North due to the fact it shares significant cultural similarities. While Dorset became the rebels against British rule, Rossland remained loyalist and would go on to evolve into one of the most loyal British colonies there is. It shares many cultural similarities with Canada too, although its accent is said to be distictively "English".

Them Ruskies

Hmm, this might be a little complicated. The main company responsible for handling Russian colonial lands would be the the Russian-American Company which would control at its peak modern day Donskoya, Romanova and Alyeska. Yeah, that's right, I don't plan the sale of Alaska to America in 1867 to occur. Plus, the British would be focused on Greenland too, so perhaps that gives a chance for Russian Alaska to expand more into OTL Canada or would that be negated by the fact Russia is expanding in Greenland too?

However, when it comes to the Russian Revolution, the Romanovs manage to escape to Romanova but Donskoya stays in Soviet hands.

Come 1979, and the Soviets are interested in Afganistan as well as putting down the rebellion in Donskoya. Now I am not sure which one will lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union or if it will even collapse - maybe becoming more authoritarian or more liberal, saving it from falling. But of it falls, then the Caucasus will certainly be a lot more states.

However, the establishment of Slavs in general may be affected as the Siberian region would be more habitable. For one, the minorities of the east would probably flourish for a short period. The problem is how to ensure that events like OTL still happen. Now the Slavs were thought to have migrated into Europe from the Ukraine - Belarus region westward probably due to the fact the climate was better. Here, they would move eastward instead, altering the ethnic groups in the region - removing Yugoslavian ethnicities in OTL - as well as Czech and Slovak - perhaps even Pole.

These Slavs would bring with them their culture and languages and when the Tsardom began to expand, they would be forced to conquer other Slavs. However, the difference would be they would eventually identify with the Russians - not becoming like the Chechnyan or Cossaks. Well most of them. In some regions, the Slavs would still follow their old pagan religion. They will most definitely not become like the Ukrainians or Belorussians - more like the Southern Englanders - few faint cries of independence but all in all a content Russian people.

The Tsardom period would be compared to the period when England had multiple kingdoms by modern day historians. Of course, this does not change the Caucasian situation, or the rest of Asia.

Europe, however, would be changed. Chris will need to help meh!

(Rough) Timeline

Main Article: Timeline (The Green North)

The main changes to the timeline will take place in 1763.

1763: After the 7 years war, the British begin to tax the colony of British North Greenland due to the fact the South was providing large trading and money was flowing into the coffers from the region easily. Those in North Greenland begin to experience heavy taxing and although more come into the nation due to the fact it is open and there is a lot of options to farm land. But this also brings about an informal name for the colony. It begins to be refered to as [New] Dorset - due to the farmlands and the sheep brought in.

1776: With the Declaration of Independence, things kick off in America. The Dorset colony begins to consider its options too, and decides to follow their brethern. On the 15th of Auguest, they declare their own independence and join the Americans in the War of Independence. The British are hardpressed and have to deploy forces on two different fronts. Troops are sent in from Britain and they use Southern British Greenland to launch a counter-attack against the rebels in the north. Those in southern Dorset is still comprised of many loyalists. But the war begins to become heavier on both fronts.

1785: The Wars of Independence finish. With the signing of the Treaty of Paris, the United States of America and the Federated States of Dorset (or Federation of Dorset perhaps?) are formed. These states will eventually establish their Constitutions. The Dorsetians are the first to establish a strong constitution, followed by America. British South Greenland stays in British hands. the French keep their lands west of Lake ------ for the time being.

1803: Napoloenic Wars: Charlesville is used to attack Britain from the west while Louisville is expanded to get to within striking distance of [now] British Greenland. Dorset stays neutral in the current stage of the war. Unlike America, however, they still send a few volunteer regiments to support the British. The British hold against the French, who are not able to gain the land advantage as enjoyed by the rest of the Grand Armee. Although more and more French troops are arriving, the British still manage to defeat the French in many engagements. The Russian-American Company manage to expand to border Louisville and undertake in a few skirmishes.

1807: The Russian-American Company halt their attacks as a peace with France is signed while the British attack the Danish fleet in a bid to knock out ships which could support the French in September, bombarding Copenhagen to do so. Denmark is forced to side with France and their colony begins to expand to support the French in their bid to knock out the British colonies, which continue the fight against the French. However, the fact that they were supporting France throughout their "neutrality" sows the seeds for the switching of sides against France in 1812.

1812: While the US declares war on Britain for interfering with their shipping, Dorset declares war on France after secret negociation with Britain for more land. This causes a rift in relations between the nations which would only be fixed after ----. Meanwhile, Napoloen invades Russia, and once more the Russian-American Company begins campaigns against Louisville. As the French try to counter-attack in Greenland, they begin to fall victim to the winter. The ironic fact was on both fronts the French would lose because of the winter. The Russians would seize the iniative in Greenland and would begin to press on south - defeating the French in battle after battle. The French would attack the Russians in ------, in what would become the largest and bloodiest single-day action on the island. Although the French would force the Russians back, the Russians were able to regroup and continue on.

1815: After the defeat of Napoleon for the final time, the French colonies in Greenland would be hugely reduced. At its expense, the Russians, British and Swedes would gain land, along with Dorset. The Danish would be forced to give up some of their lands too, yet retained their colony for the most part and in some parts gained land. The French colony of Louisville was removed from the map with its lands being split between the Russian-America company, the Swedish and the Danish Empire. Dorset would capture the eastern-most portion of the colony which was on the other side of Lake ----------. The colony of Charlesville would be left intact and as it expanded it would gain more land later on. The Napoleonic Wars completely reshaped Europe, and Greenland was no exception. The division of Greenland for the most part was now complete and the remaining nations raced to claim more lands for their nation following the end of hostilities.

1837: Greenland is now completely occupied or claimed by nations. With the exception of the Russian-America Company, which claimed Donskoy Island, all other regions are occupied by other nations. German immigrants into Dorset can now begin to be seen in great numbers as they immigrate to the nation, away from the chaos of Germany and the constant warring and into peaceful farmland where food is plentiful and the scenery nice. They bring with them their unique food and soon, like in America, "hot-dogs" begin to be sold. Parallels are soon drawn with America and many from America decide to move east instead of west.

1852: The Treaty of Albia is signed by the nations of Britain, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, France and Dorset, recognising all current borders as official borders of the respective colonies and nations. This brings an end to the era of expansion present on the island and the colonial powers now begin to develop their respective colonies. Russian serfs are freely allowed to immigrate to territories belonging to the Russian-American Company. However, many in Russia fear this will lead to a shortage of workers and so a law is passed which only allows serfs to immigrate once they pay a certain amount of money to their landlords. For many this would mean they would never be able to emigrate but on the flipside it would allow quite a few to escape Russia and set up new lives in a new land.

Another shot

A lot of things stay the same. However, I am going to try and work with this map now.

Another Greenlandic Prop (TGN)

Pretty much Louisville is the thing on the coast in green. The colony referred to Manuella is now a Swede colony, with Grinella becoming the lands on which the Spanish colony will be based upon. However, I might swap Louisville and the Swede colony, so the Swede colony is on the coast while the French colony is the one in pink. Could make more sense as it would leave the French colony still pretty large and the Swedish colony on the smaller side. Depends really. 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:06, May 2, 2014 (UTC)

Napoleon's Australian Victory

Needed a new heading!

Now I cannot delete Cal's hard work, so it is saved here.

Nice to have a heading already in place. Been looking at the Marathas recently and I couldn't help but note the PoD would have a direct impact to the Third Anglo-Maratha war. For the sake of creating the India Cal (with some input from me) has worked hard on creating, for all intents and purposes the EIC still wins the war. However, the difference in this case over the long term is in relation with Indian wealth. With no "Britain to send the profits of "Empire" to, as already written by Cal an industrial revolution would be much quicker to take hold within the country. Tho perhaps the wealth from the nation could be used for the betterment of other colonies initially, with the lack of a "home country" for the company this would not last the many decades it did in OTL.

An idea for the above I could foresee is the company being forced into recruiting the Maratha forces they defeated into their ranks to maintain order over such a huge region without any help from home. Obviously the French would be eyeing the region and thus to protect their endeavours the EIC would need a local force. Although providing much value in the short term, the company would have a huge rebellion which would lead to the eventual founding of the empire. 

Some stuff from Wikipedia on Maratha prowess:

Similarly, the Duke of Wellington, after defeating Marathas, noted that Marathas, though poorly led by their Generals, had regular infantry and artillery that matched the level of that of the Europeans and warned other British officers from underestimating the Marathas on the battlefield. He cautioned one British general that: "You must never allow Maratha infantry to attack head on or in close hand to hand combat as in that your army will cover itself with utter disgrace". Even when Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, became the Prime Minister of Britain, he held Maratha infantry in utmost respect, claiming it to be one of the best in world. However, at the same time he noted the poor leadership of Maratha Generals, who were often responsible for their defeats.[74] Charles Metcalfe, one of the ablest of the British Officials in India and later acting Governor-General, wrote in 1806:

India contains no more than two great powers, British and Mahratta, and every other state acknowledges the influence of one or the other. Every inch that we recede will be occupied by them.[75][76]

Norman Gash says that the Maratha infantry was equal to that of British infantry. After the Third Anglo-Maratha war in 1818, Britain listed the Marathas as one of the Martial Races to serve in British Indian Army.[77]

This suggests strong evidence for the fact the Maratha soldiers were formidible, thus supporting the fact they would have been recruited from. Although the Third Anglo-Maratha war occurs after the PoD, most Maratha territories were under British control anyway and thus the same outcome could be derived for the same timeframe. However, I personally feel a direct consequence of French victory in Britain would be the fleeing of countless top brass from Britain - including its best military commanders. With the lack of white soldiers - it would be safe to assume Marathas would comprise of much of the new force created by the British. It would also be safe to assume Maratha military power would not be broken. To keep the Maratha forces from rebelling, the British would create a war against the Nazim of Hyderabad to keep their forces occupied while they established greater control over their territories, with the eventual aftermath being a much reduced state with a weak Nazim at best of times. Instead the company would slowly work to make the ruler seem tyrannical - and would eventually have him replaced by a noble from the House of Hanover - the first case of a British noble taking up a permanent position on the subcontinent.

The Marathas would then be put to use attacking the Rajputs where under competent and at times even brilliant British command would quickly come to subjugate the region, bringing them directly to the border of Punjab. However, due to previously agreed treaties with Raja Ranjit Singh - and previously agreed on borders on the Satluj - no attempts to expand into his territory would be made. Raja Ranjit Singh would continuously be courted by the French - but their support for the Persians would mean he would continue to seek support instead from the "British" in India.

Perhaps with the heavy handed rule of the French, people would inadvertently run from Britain. Without the wealth of Empire fuelling British industry the country would most definitely lag and poverty would grip large swathes of land. France would also justify the Kingdom of Scotland and its heavy "support" on the lines of the "Auld Alliance". Although this might initially be viewed positively by many Scots - France would effectively come to ruin the relationship between the countries'; what could have been one of their staunchest allies over time due to heavy handed French interventions and continuing many old British policies such as the depopulation of the highlands and restricting the powers of Holyrood would give them varying degrees of unpopularity over the years. This, in turn, would lead to emigration - predominantly to India but also Van Damien. Could ask Cal if he would agree to St Helena becoming a stopover point for emigrants much like what happened in the midwest during the 1840s in OTL America.

However, at least initially, the strongest stream of migrants would come from the Angelterre Francais. Harsh working conditions and allegiance to the old crown would tempt people to make the long journey east, where the hope of a British realm under the crown lived on. According to records, the population of India was 6 times that of Britain (or 4 if Ireland is included) at the time thus it is definitely possible to shift the demographics of India in the fashion me and Cal think could happen. Bombay would be a prime destination - along with Calcutta.

Yet allowing the Marathas to retain some sort of military power would hurt the company. The steady influx of whites from Britain into Bombay was starting to earn the ire of the locals - and a Sepoy rebellion soon broke out initially around Pune but spreading toward much of central India in 1827 - probably directly linked and in some cases controlled by the weak peshwas. Initially the situation would look bleak and the EIC would probably ask the British monarchy for help, along with any administrative and military aid they could still muster. Charlotte would arrive along with most of the "free" nobility of former Britain. The British would be forced to negotiate with (by this point) Maharaja Ranjit Singh in a bid to avoid him attacking and claiming land and even asking for nominal aid. In exchanged he was promised a bride from the British nobility itself. Never one to refuse the offer for a new wife - he would honour the deal and even send some nominal support to crush the rebellion.

In the end, the British would break the rebellion by pitting the Maratha families against one another - thus removing their influence over the sepoys and allow for chaos to set it. It was clear that ordering the systematic destruction of the rebels would lead to more harm than good and greater conflict in the future - thus the company - under direct orders from the Queen herself would offer amnesty to rebelling troops if they agreed to put down their arms. Along with this, concessions would be made to the local populace - the Marathas the most vocal among them - to appease them, such as the banning of the killing of cows (which followed the example set by Ranjit Singh in Punjab). It would take over three years for the rebellion to eventually end, though the heaviest period would be the first year and a half, and would lead to the establishment of the Indian Parliament and the eventual move of the capital from Calcutta to Dehli in 1857.

The British would hold true to their promise and Maharaja Ranjit Singh would be gifted a bride. She would be viewed with suspision in his court but her beauty would be well known and would cause much jealousy among his other wives. She would bear him multiple children - who would eventually come to rule the Princely State of Jammu over the course of the next few decades and who would go on to marry into the Royal family.

Making Charlotte a major stabilising factor could work well. Especially if early on in her reign she acts as an absolute monarch. It would be under her that the Nazim of Hyderabad would be replaced to someone from her own family. She would essentially play match-maker and would undoubtedly be responsible for spreading the "virtues of home away from home" within former Britain - thus managing to make at least some of the aristocrats from the country migrate with the promise of lands and riches. It would also be under her the greatest stream of immigrants from Britain would arrive. Beginning in the 1840s, ships full of people would set off in the hope of a life of freedom and opportunity to the east. Many would perish on the journeys but many more would make it.

Ranjit Singh dies in 1839, as OTL, and his family start their civil-warring, as OTL. Within this civil war, the children by his last wife would be under immediate danger. It would be interesting to see whether they should try to initially raise support and then flee southward or flee as soon as the Raja is dead? I think the former, mainly because with so many claimants it could be perfectly possible to find some support. And perhaps they do, but it is not enough and they have to flee. The crown seen an opportunity when presented with one and around 1841-42 backs the claim of the young Singh with British blood. It would be the first test of the reformed military in 12 years and there would be shortcomings. But eventually they would succeed, and would establish themselves the protectors of the new Singh. Through his name, much land would be taken for the Empire - though there would be minor rebellions here and there - until over the course of a decade and a bit he would be left with the rump of Jammu.

In the background, the first steps toward full industrialisation would already be underway. White immigrants in the coastal cities would understandably suffer under the heat and they would often be met with hostility by the locals. Yet they were here to stay and many brought with them experience and knowledge that was needed to push the nation rich in resources into exploiting them. The first major railroads would begin to be built in 1835 and would open in 1837 between Bombay and Poona. When the British intervened in Punjab - there was no major railroads present in the north of the country, yet by the time the British came to establish control over the region a decade or so later, Bombay, Dehli and Calcutta would all be linked, thus reducing the pressure on supply lines. The use of cheap labour and the opening of stocks to the rich locals along with the Brits allowed for great sums of investment to be poured into the construction of the railroads. It would be around this time a Parliament is established and all white landowners, and all native landowners with property worth more than a certain value would be allowed to vote and stand up in Parliament. It was clear, however, that the disparity in voting rights would allow for a strong white presence within Parliament.

Within two decades railroads would crisscross the country and would allow for white immigrants to spread inward into the cities of Allabhad and Dehli. It was also around this time agricultural methods refined and allowed for more food to reach the cities, lowering the cases of famine. The population of whites would as a result boom while the population of rural India struggled and in many cases stagnated. For although natural famines would be reduced, diverting food to cities and areas of strong white presence would create famines of their own, almost always at the cost of natives. Although the rich families had secured representation - there would be no one to argue for the common, rural man. Year on year they would see their foodstuffs be sent to the city to feed the populations and the booming industries there while they would suffer. By 1865, strife would be rampant in the countryside and would lead to mass migrations of the natives themselves as they seeked food and greater oppurtunity. It would be here where they would come into large scale contact with whites and realise of the stark differences in their treatments. Though whites would live in slums - they would still have the previlige (yea I used it) of being white leading to much strife. However, it would be during this era where mixed marriages in a great sclae began to occur too. For although there were differences, in the slums everyone suffered.

By the time of the death of Queen Charlotte, the country she would be laid to rest in would be a lot more different from the country she would arrive to call home.

An idea I had about religion was with the loss of traditional churches, the British would establish prominent new churches within India itself. The foremost of this in my opinion would be the Abbey of Shimla (or is it Simla?). Shimla was the OTL British summer capital and as a result to this day retains a significant Christian presence. Thus it would be fitting to create a strong Christian presence within the region. Would definitely see a lot of Scottish immigration due to the much colder temperatures. Definitely the region for the Royal retreat during summer.

Maybe ask Cal about the status of the Britannic Commonwealth - perhaps it is a joint economic and military bloc - i.e with its own version of the OTL Euro and maybe in integrated military command system - more maybe something atleast like NATO. Cal was already receptive of the idea. Question is will the name of the currency be the Rupee or the Pound? Why not both - at least initially. But eventually the Rupee gets phased out over the industrial revolution of the country perhaps. If the Britannic Parliament is in Ceylon - then could be in Colombo - making it ATL Brussels in terms of its significance to the Commonwealth. For administrative purposes - the head could me the Monarch and the person with the power the First Minister (First Minister to the Monarch).

Ask Cal about immigration from Sumatra and India onto Val Damien at over two points. First - under company rule but as Van Damien was already a dominion it may not have proved to be in the company's power to do so. Second- in the good ol' '60s - much more possible and could serve as the equivalent of the Pommie emigration to Australia in OTL. Size affect? A larger (perhaps much - maybe even more than double) population for the island.

Title work: Her Imperial and Royal Majesty, Elizabeth, Empress of India and Monarch of the Britannic Commonwealth, Sovereign over her other Realms and Territories, Defender of the Faiths. 

House: Saxe-Colberg-Scinde-Bhosle-Singh I think.

Britain after the British Spring. Initially, there would be the approval of the Scinde Plan - a multi-billion (near £90 billion) plan to rebuilt and boost the economic production and capitalise on the North Sea oil fields (need to ask Cal about that one - hopefully they haven't been fully exploited yet) and reconstruct vast regions of land and improve all standards of living within the country. In accordance with India, they would minimise military spending and instead focus fully on economic and social reconstruction - leaving their defense in the hands of the Royal Armed Forces (of India - or maybe the Commonwealth). Indeed, the military would be responsible for establishing countless field hospitals in the north of the country as early as during the battle of Roterham, when Indian aid workers arrived en masse to help the wounded civilians. The island as a whole I could see being 20%-40% less populated compared to OTL due to the countless years of emigration from the island. Tho closer to 20% rather than 40% maybe?

Edinburgh size prop (NAV)
Quite possible here that Edinburgh is a much larger city than OTL. It is definitely a financial centre OTL and with London firmly in the hands of the French, the city would take on a much more prominant role within Britain. Thus I envision the city would ballon in size and perhaps prominance. After all without London at the heart of the British Empire it is safe to assume the city would be no where near as large.

In the picture on the size, I have outlined in orange what I see would be a ringroad for ATL Edinburgh. Roads, specifically ringroads, are a good indication of city size. The more ringroads present within a city - the larger and more populus it is. As a comparision, London is shown in the bottom with the prominant ringroad M25 going round the circumference of the city. They are both the same size, and one thing is clear - London is MASSIVE.

I see this Edinburgh having a population of around 3.5 - 4 million people and having all the hallmarks of being the most prominant city in Britain. It has expanded out to the other side of the Forth - and a second bridge exists more upstream. Whatever the drawbacks of the governments, Edinburgh managed to remain a financial centre and Edinburgh Castle might actually be occupied. 

Such a high population for the city does mean there would be less people to the south, and I could also see Glasgow being a smaller city than OTL. In its heyday it would have been filled with ships going south and east as people sought to move away from the country. Therefore the British Spring would have a profound impact on the capital and it would probably have suffered some serious damage. 


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