Alternative History

User talk:LurkerLordB/Archive 1

Berlin-Denmark War

can you figure the algorithm for the Berlin-Denmark war? France, USG, Flanders and Nubia have joined on Denmark's side. Andr3w777 00:00, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

I northern Africa, they are sending supplies to France via Italy (and some military aid I think Andr3w777 00:18, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

How would Wales- a Celtic nation- vassal South Ireland(also Celtic) our ancestry is similar historically isn't it? I am curious because Wales wants to expand while avoiding war. Andr3w777 17:44, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about the confusion. I attempted the alogorithm and got it partially correct, then i saked Ezra to correct my mistakes. I took control of Wales in 1911 if that helps you. Andr3w777 20:23, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Georgia

Anybody can come and start controling Georgia, I will not object, and I will not do anything to stop it, that was the point. and I am not stopping anyone from asking to control poland either, they are just in personal union with Russia. ask a friend to take control of them if you want, i couldnt care less-Lx (leave me a message) 01:50, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Your revolts in Georgia are actualy making me fast-track my original plans for a "Russian Commonwealth". Around 1930 Ukraine will ask for Commonwealth State Status, then soon after Kazakhstan will follow, and then Lithuania, and thats about it unless you can see another state that can be formed.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:56, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

What I was doing was saying that All the South Caucassian Lands are no longer uner russian control, and it is more like a "you are now part of Transcaucasia, if the Georgians want out, its no longer russia's problem"-Lx (leave me a message) 02:04, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

And also, the choices you gave me are rather insulting: you go to war, or your country is completely destroyed by a domino effect of you let that go why not us(thats how I understood it).-Lx (leave me a message) 02:06, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

The commonwealth is still going to be created, georgia is just probably going to go screw that when its all done and then russias just going to get fed up and stop dealing with it, is that good? But the commonwealth will be created, maybe without the part labeled Gruzia(my best attempt at drawing the modern borders of Gerogia without south osetia and Abkhazia, witch are not realy georgian peoples).-Lx (leave me a message) 02:21, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

I decided to go the easy route, and I added this at the end and uncrossed my post, is it ok?

Georgia however, is just not realy moving, and nearly a week after the creation they start rumbling again. Russia gets fed up with it and says its no longer their problem, The Weak Trascaucasian Governement does noting, and after long strife, Georgia is finaly independant. Lenin resigns and Trotsky steps up as Chancelor. Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili(Stalin) Steps up as the Leader of Georgia, and starts to act just as he did in OTL. -Lx (leave me a message) 02:31, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Question (PM)


Is it okay if I re-edit 1918 and 1919? I accidentally wrote Tenshi Mäkeläinen instead of Katriin Mägi (Tenshi Mäkeläinen was only Prime Minister of the Republic of Kazami, and the Eesti Vabariik didn't had it's Prime Minister changed yet.) I know that past turns are not to be allowed to edit, but I made a mistake in putting Tenshi Mäkeläinen for Eesti Vabariik when it was supposed to be Katriin Mägi. -Kogasa Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png宮城県.pngFlag of Japan.svg 20:24, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

As long as you have more mod events for the NPCs than we currently have in PM1 in PM2, then I'm game. It just bugs me how you have player nations doing stuff, and the NPCs don't react at all hardly. Its not life like at all VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:16, June 4, 2012 (UTC).

Well you have my support then :) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:12, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


Could you halp me with the algorithms for the two wars I had started? I'd forgotten how to properly make an algorithm, and I am sick of them remaining unresolved.

Yank 01:22, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Welcome Back (PM)

Her Lurker, welcome back from your break. As you can see, Bharat has been busy. A nuclear project and arms race is going on and Dravidia has begun its production of its own aircraft. You might want to state the production finishes and it starts to become mass-produced. Bharat already has its own Spitfire and Hurricane counter-parts, and the plane Dravidia is producing is a Messeschimt 109 counter-part. I have also managed to keep expanding Dravidia's colony and it has seems to have done well.

In other news, Onguayal and the USA along with Kwasihirio have been at work in South America to give Imperial powers the boot. Also, Australia is now also in a dynastical union with Bharat after its war with the country and the following negociations (there was quite a bit of roleplay, lol). Afghanistan has started research on how to condense water-vapour into clouds to form rain so its rains more and the country gets to grow more crops.

Apart from all this, the union of Bharat, Dravidia, Afghanistan and Australia has been given a new name, the United Kingdom of Hindustan (I know it should be Empire but oh well). Bengal has also come under Bharat's protection after a government change which had something to do with Bharat. The country is right now getting back up onto its feet.

That's all I think. Is there anything you would like to ask? :D 1.png Imperium Guy 12:18, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Easternised World question


Do you think there will be a Touhou Project or a Touhou Project equivalent in the time-line, or no? If so, can I make a proposal page for it if it's okay? -Kogasa Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png宮城県.pngFlag of Japan.svg 17:30, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be sure to keep it in mind. Anyway, I made the proposal page here already. I plan to make the series different from OTL, and since the OTL Touhou Project has only very few Western elements (examples: Palace of the Earth Spirits is a Western-styled mansion and the Scarlet Devil Mansion is a European-styled mansion), it should be very easy to take out/change. If there are any problems, let me know. -Kogasa Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png宮城県.pngFlag of Japan.svg 19:22, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

1450 (PM II)

I think that the map was designed by you, and i have lots of errors to report.such as:

  • existance of non-existing yet states such as:
    • Sibir (1490)
    • Uzbek Khanate (1500)
  • non-existance of still existing nations sych as:
    • Oyo (1400)
    • Despotate Of Epirus (only was annexed in 1479.)
    • Nogai Horde (broke off from the Golden Horde circa 1440)
    • Serbian Despotate (annexed in 1459)
    • League of Lezhë (founded in 1444)
  • wrongly designed borders
    • Hungary/Moldavia/Wallachia (smaller than it was) /Bosnia (on OTL Croatia.)/Croatia (on northern Croatia/Hungary)
    • Ryazan is south from where it actually was.
  • Kazan may be actually northeast of its actual location.
    • In OTL, the Akan states only occupied a area roughly equivalent to Ghana and Ivory Coast.In the map, they got to Guinea-Bissau.

among some other smaller errors. i already corrected some of them, and also were those Russian states (Pskov, Muscovy, Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Ryazan, Rostov, Tver), as people would assume that only Novgorod and Muscovy existed.when i tried to correct it, finding a map of the area was very difficult.This was just to warn you of the errors present, and that i couldn't add the subtitles. (in the proccess of editing Moldavia, i lost their subtitles, and i didn't managed to add one for Serbia or Oyo.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:25, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I will try to make more corrections, such as finding a map of the Timurids so i can see what their borders were, and then, set the borders of the Golden Horde (correction of Kazan's position included), and overall, try to add nations.specially on Southwest Asia.By the way, Do you use MS Paint?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:45, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Soviet Remnant

No. Between the impact of the democratic changes happening around them, and the movement of military forces, not possible.

The Soviet military would not have let it happen, either.

Lordganon 18:29, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hi i noticed that you want to play as China in my VLR game. I believe it's up for grabs because Ian hasnt posted for a long time. Nevertheless, you should ask him on his talk page, its Ianian58. However other nations are open like Russia! (Taco resigned) --AP

They broke up my country in PM!!! I was not on for awhile due to internet issues and had no possible way of editing my posts. How do I undue this? It seems really unfair. I didn't leave the wiki I was just unable to edit posts. What can I do to fix this? Is there someone I can talk to? I like PM I just wish I had a bigger nation. and how the hell did I lose Iceland. I have a large military and alliesAndr3w777 17:07, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I understand. Also I didn't write the second part about the war ending badly. I don't know who did. I decided to stage a coup to replace the current regiem with a more peaceful one. Also can I be on PM Mark II when it starts?Andr3w777 20:14, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I like this plan. I was planning a sort of depression after the war so this will give my people something to llok forward to. I have signed up as Bavaria for PM IIAndr3w777 21:39, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Excuse Lurk, Andrew current argument is this: It is implausible for Ireland to leave the PCU because Ireland's national party holds a great majority of the parliament and Ireland's national party members have been the PMs since the collectivist revolt. He asked me to speak to you on his behalf because he thinks you are not listening to him because he is a relatively new user on this wiki in comparison to you. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:16, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I took so long to respond to you. To business:

  • OK then, I do suppose splitting the nation in two would be better. If you could do that, it would be good.

MP has also said that he intended to speak to other Roman players later after he spoke with me/Brandenburg. Btw, do you know who had Brandenburg in Game 1? IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:46, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Russian States in PMII

I looked at the map, and its a pretty good job, but The Russian States and Lithuania are not very well represented(especialy novgorod). Novgorod is not badly done, but its territory does extend to the Urals. I don't mean to be rude, but I put RUssian states indented and under one heading(not realy, just Russians states in bold). If its ok then I'll edit the map for Russia and Lithuania according to these maps, if not, then please try to make them look a bit like this. I think that Lithuania extends to far east, and thati where moscow is supposed to be, but I recongnize the difficulty in actualy making a working map form scratch, I did georgia and that took a lot of time. I cant imagine what doing all of the world was. Russian states bordered the Chrimea khanate in every map of this era that I found, and on this one it doesnt. I'm sorry if any of this comes out as rude, but its becasue i'm not sure that I can edit the

novgorod c.1400

this is the polish-russian-Tatar borders

actual map.

anotehr map showing the polish-rusian-tatar border around the time period

I have a question in regards to PM II, why not end the game in 1999 or 2000 instead of 89, i mean it is recent but it is still the past. I was just curious about it. Shouls i continue the propaganda in Britanny now the France might be back?Andr3w777 06:10, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


You are correct. 'And another thing... ' was written by E. Colfer in 2010 (I think)

Never heard of 'Young Zaphod plays it safe' where is it available?

Thanks David Rain (Sometimes...) 07:21, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

It was a good book- I recommend it vaguely- but not if you liked the Hitchhiker's series. Or if you are trying to read something serious. Guns (talk) 11:45, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary in PMII

Hey, I've been researching the 15th century history of Hungary for the past two days, and I'm wondering if I could play as Hungary in PMII. Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 13:22, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, but when I signed up as Hungary yesterday, when I looked there today, I've noticed that my name was removed from it. :P Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 13:27, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, alright then xD It explains everything on that matter then. By the way, from what I understood Sigsimund(ruler of Hungary until 1437) was a king of Bohemia, what's the situation of Bohemia in 1450? I couldn't really find any sources. Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 13:49, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

But, was it actually the part of Hungary, or...? Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 13:59, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Can you give me an idea, on how should it be done? I mean, what should I do, to make it fully plausible. As from what I'm thinking, I'd just connect Bohemia in 1453 into Hungary, and then I'd have to do something about "rebels"? I'm not quite sure. Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 04:35, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Hello? Lurker? :D Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 13:55, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Can I do it in 1450, or should I wait for 1452/1453 for some reason? Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 14:15, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have no huge desire of being an empire(yet), but Bohemia was on my list of interest, so I guess I'll go with uniting. What should I know about uniting by the way? What are the conditions and the aftermath of uniting? Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 14:46, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

I see. But would there be some kind of way to get the out of HRE and then invade them with my forces? Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor261) 15:02, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

PM II and former colonies/Sovereignity defense league (PM I)

Which was the decision about former colonies on PM II?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:17, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

What is the Sovereignity defense league?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:17, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

So i accept that proposal to enter this that you made me when you accepted my alliance proposal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:33, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

And the rest?How can we assure that other nations won't colonize them after their indpendence?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:33, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Micronationalism exists everywhere, that doesn't mean it always succeeds. We do not even have many supergiant empires in this game. Example: America even today has Mexican nationalists in the Southwest (New Mexico, Arizona, Mexican Cession lands, Texas) but you don't see California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas seceding and joining Mexico or forming a new nation. They are still part of America. Furthermore, a lie is a lie when someone presents it as a fact. I stated it once and as my opinion, and I am entitled to my opinion.

And as a side note, I will tell you that all the part of Denmark (Denmark, Sweden, Greenland) are similar: they are all Scandinavian (or have Scan. people in Greenland's case), they are all Nordic, they have one majority religion, one culture, etc, etc.

As a last not, if I have offended you, please accept my apology.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:00, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Bengali Discussion

I don't hate them, but Muslims are a huge problem for Bharat, as we are trapped from all sides. So what should I do now? :/ 1.png Imperium Guy 16:34, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'll let Akaran break away from Bengal, but I don't need to give Bengal semi-autonomy as it is not even a part of Bharat, just a protectorate. I will place the muslims at around 70%, its a stretch but I think it is enough. All I need to do now is handle the country well. :D 1.png Imperium Guy 22:40, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I saw what you said about the conquering of the country next to Bhutan. I did not conquer that country, it is just Begal's vassal.

I also plan to impose an aparahiet system in Bengal when the Prime Minister would impose segregation by religion (he will be Buddhist). A Nelso Mandela figure will arise, in the form of a Buddhist Agnostic. However, the government would be doing this to increase Buddhists, and over the years there will be a increase. Back to the Nelson Mandela figure. He will be exiled to New Hattanwaddy, but will eventually return in the 90s.

By this time, the Bengalis have been succesful(ish) in their goal and only 35% of the population remain muslim. Still, he manages to do what Nelson Mandela did and he ends Aparthied and make the country secular. Then, the country will hold a referendum to join Bharat as an SAR in the late 00s and will narrowly pass. After that I don't know!! :D 1.png Imperium Guy 13:22, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

C'mon I said 70% muslim (I added the "its a stretch" bit after it as well). I will say to around 45% then. I will aslo say that more of the muslims which have changed religion became free-thinkers (around 20%) as their belief in allah dwindled because he did not "save" them from aparthied. This will also happen with the Buddhists, mind.

But I think having the figure as a Buddhist would gve it more of a twang if you know what I mean (I did say he was agnostic). He might become more agnostic and maybe even come into the free-thinker category starting the "free-thinking revolution".

About the genocide, no. There might be some in the choas when the nation is entering Aparthied but none will be carried out by the government intentionally or officially.

What do you think now? :/ 1.png Imperium Guy 14:47, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

The Buddhists will be hit. But its a shame that they wouldn't rally around him cause it would have been brilliant if he would have started of the revolution.

On second thoughts, the muslim Nelson Mandela figure could begin the "free-thinker revolution" as well, could he not? :D 1.png Imperium Guy 17:33, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

The most famous one of course being Muhamed Ali!! :D 1.png Imperium Guy 18:44, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I know this sounds stupid but how do you archive a talk page?Andr3w777 04:53, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

IPs as sockpuppets

Depends on the context, and if there's any proof. Lordganon 01:17, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

hey Berlin hasn't been on PM for ages can you ask Ezra if he's still interested in playing?Andr3w777 02:01, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

PM II Lithuania

I changed from Hungary to Lithuania as Imperium suggested to me. Is there any way to play as Poland, and if not, any way to fully annex Poland in some kind of way? Even though they both were equal, it says that Poland was dominant power. Is there any way of civil war then, or anything else? Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 04:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Then, do you think there is a way for Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth become powerful? Also, look at this . It says that there was no dynastic union(commonwealth) before 1569!!! Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 04:31, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Strange thing. Even tho I knew a lot about Polish-Lithuanian history, I hear of Casimir IV first time. I only knew about Jogaila so far. But alright. So basically I can control both Poland and Lithuania fully? So I'll just follow the basic successor-predecessor timeline by Wikipedia? Also, do you think it would be possible to defeat Teutonic Knights and then Pskov at the beginning of the game? :P (Hungary is too hard subject for me to research xD) Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 04:48, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I followed your advise about Britanny, when would be a good time to have them slit. I am open to optionsAndr3w777 (talk) 02:19, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Just a heads up on the sign ups, you say personal union for a lot of nations but in reality it was one nation taking over another's foreign affairs. Poland led, and so did Denmark in theirs. If it is ok with you I can fix these up as I have multiple sources on the Middle Ages. Scandinator (talk) 10:49, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

There is too big a difference between dynastic unions, personal unions and vassals. Vassals usually have a leader that must obey certain types of orders from their liege kingdom. These can vary but the usuals arefollowing the leading kingdom in foreign affairs and wars. Personal Unions are two nations that share the same king who rules both nations however they can't integrate the two nations into one unless a signficant period of time has passed under a stable rule allowing cultural assimilation and dilution. Dynastical unions are two nations that share the same family but are ruled by different people. They usually co-operate much better in times of crisis but schisms can occur and one may attack the other.

To govern the various types of unions and vassals I propose the following rules. Vassals must obey every word of their liege kingdom unless occupied by another kingdom or going up against unbeatable odds. Personal Unions will listen to the leading kingdom's every word as they are ruled by the same king, however in wars, occupation by a foreign nation and unbeatable odds there is a large chance of revolt in the kingdom that the king did not originate from (eg Hungary revolts in Austria-Hungary). In dynastical unions the senior member of that dynasty has greater influence and the junior member acts like a vassal in wars but can revolt in peacetime and start a war against the senior branch of that dynasty. Scandinator (talk) 01:28, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also how did you put the words on the map? I can't do that without blurring the words and the image around the word. Scandinator (talk) 01:33, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

About Japanisation of PMII

Thanks. I guess ever since you told me to stop copy pasting, I have tried to be more detailed with my posts. Even though I still copy paste, I try to add something new if I can (and if I have any ideas). ^^

I know. Though the only reason why I did it is because Japan itself was conquered at the time, and I wanted to really play as Japan. Though, I ended up taking Finland. Since I wanted to have a Japanese-styled nation, I asked Japan for an alliance and to have Kōchi (city in Kōchi Prefecture, Japan) as a trading post, and went from there. Though at least I had Finnish paganism have a revival, and kept a few of the Finnish cultures, I know that it still was unlikely. I know it was all implausible, and I'm sorry for that.

As for the Shinto/Japanising Thailand in the next game, I wasn't planning on it, don't worry (it's still an East/South East Asian nation, and I usually intend to play nations from that region, if I can't get Japan itself to play). And actually, I did wanted to play as Japan in the next game, but Yank beat me to it, hence why I chose Thailand instead. I'll try asking him if he can switch nations. If not, then I can go with option two or three. -Kogasa Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png宮城県.pngFlag of Japan.svg 17:21, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about that, having the Ainu become an empire and being Japanised, but I wasn't sure if you would have accepted it or not.

I'm also interested in having Japan be split into two. As long as I have Shikoku and maybe Kyushu it be fine for me. I'll think I'll take the Japan split in two option instead. :D -Kogasa Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png宮城県.pngFlag of Japan.svg 18:47, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Japan (Principia Moderi II)

That's unecessary. I've decided to wait for the inevitable Principia Moderni III to pick Japan.

Yank 02:54, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Spread of Communism

Hello Lurk, I don't who else I can resort to, but you came to my mind first.

A couple of the users in the Spread of Communism Map Game deleted the game's content. They erased all the users and started a whole brand new game.

I'm not too sure what should be done about this, but as of now, I, as the last remaining active mod from the original game, have banned the leaders of this movement from the game temporarily. They are Scandinator, Stewdio333, and RWG.

Please help me, because I don't know what to do right now, with the game's creator GRSGov currently inactive. I am seeking your counsel because I know you are both an admin and an active map gamer, so I think you are fully capable of making the right decision.

If I shouldn't have done anything to them, please tell me and I will undo it immediately and apologize to them.

If further action should be taken, tell me and I will see if I can do so.

If you could please help me in this situation it would be greatly appreciated. :)

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:34, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Is my reversal of the 007 series okay. I mean I did completely re-write the stories and the charachters are different. The new movie when it releases will have different actors playing different roles etc; All I did was take a franchise name and flip it on its head.Andr3w777 (talk) 21:16, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Blood Rain

Help! I admit I am useless at source code. What I ment to put is that the author of this article shows no interest in improving his AltHist to the required quality demands this article will be deleted. It has not been updated since the day of it's creation (it is supposed to be a live history) and has no major fleshing out of things. David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 16:33, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Lurk, with all this Wonderlaand stuff going on in PM, do I run the risk of losing Sweden?

He curently says that he poured billions of Kronas into funding Swedish seperatist parties, then I told him that unless some folks from Wonderlaand got in there, there would not have been any seperatists to begin with.

Currently I'm pondering war with Wonderlaand, with the intentions of replacing Wonderlaand's current government. Would the SDL step in in this case? (Lol, "in in")

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:07, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Von said that he did pour billions of dollars into the effort when I said "there are little to no seperatists in Denmark" and he responded along the lines of "I poured billions of Krona into the effort and you're saying there are no seperatists?"

Well, I do suppose that could free me over worrying over war. In fact I was close to asking him where he got all the money from.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:16, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

I said millions of Krona not billions of dollars for starters Scraw. Secondly I mean like 10s millions not the 100s of millions that you've probably got in your head. And its like 7 krona to 1 US dollar using today's conversion rates in OTL anyway so its not that much. Thirdly this is over the cause of the past 8 years while Wonderlaand has been supporting Swedish independence, not millions every year. Finally why would a government spend so much for something like this, that it would put themselves into financial difficulty? Wonderlaand is in no way spending the amounts which would put themselves into economic troubles, that was never my intention.

I thought by now there would of been a mod event showing Swedish revolt seeing how Wonderlaand have been supporting Swedish independence since they got independence in 1947, and they've also been supporting it while as a colony of Nippon too (albeit not as much as they have been doing since independence). I've been doing this for 8 years now and a lot of propaganda has been sent. If Norway, got independence, then how come Sweden a nation which to be one of the world's greatest powers, has successfully rebelled against Finnish rule, not decided to rebel against Denmark when they know there declaration of independence would definitely have foreign support? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:17, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
Ah, millions' and not billions. Meh. I'd estimate you'd have spent at least 63 million US dollars by now, although my former math led to believe that the number was closer to 910 or something.
Also, as I said, it's because they don't give a cent and don't want it either. Norway got it, simply put, because, Denmark was weak then. Besides, once I asked why Norway left and not Sweden. Sweden was weak, ravaged war-torn, in an economic slump, crime was rampant all over the place, again, they were far too weak to pull it off. Also, Wonderlaand's support is nothing compared to the might of Denmark's strength and power. Tell you what, I've an idea. Wonderlaand continues its stuff, to no avail. Sweden does not leave Denmark in any way possible. You (Von/Wonderlaand) stop lying. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:38, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


Just wondering - why do we delete pages? I mean, I get that some are deleted to keep the site looking nice, but others, like defunct map games, I would think would be kept for future reference. I don't care either way, just curious. CourageousLife (talk) 18:17, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

SoA 5 does not qualify for deletion: "If a game goes defunct (Hasn't been edited in 7 days), hasn't advanced past 10 turns, and can't be successfully revived, place a "{{delete}}" template on the page."

The game advanced well past 15 turns so it doesn't meet deletion requirements.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:24, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much where I was going with it to, Scraw just beat me to the punch. CourageousLife (talk) 18:27, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

But our archive has 28 turns CourageousLife (talk) 18:28, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

That is not true in any way. We have an archive. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:30, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Sorry for the trouble! CourageousLife (talk) 18:31, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Principia modeni Mars

Well, realisticaly, the only reason we arent at mars yet is because we spenr money on the Space shuttle(witch costs a lot of Moulah to operate...witch is why it was shut down and US now pigybacks on Russian Rocketrs) rather than going to mars in rockets. So realisticaly, you could argue that its either Mars or the Shuttle for one side in the Asia-Europe Pseudo-cold war. Also, if the Emperor of Russia becomes the Danish Ruler, then the process would be similar to Joining the Russian commonwealt(as what happened to Whales).

Dear LurkerLord,

It's been a while, and I'm looking to have some insight on other's ideas.

I took a look in the List of Althists and I couldn't find anything, and I figure there must be a bunch of orphaned articles that haven't even been added to the list yet.

So, do you know some Althists that I could adopt? If you could get back to me on this, it'd be great.


IdealisticPrawn (talk) 02:30, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


I have spent the last 3 days in three different libraries looking for elusive maps of the time period 1445-1455. Needless to say, after going to the three biggest libraries in Sydney, I found maps that cover small patches of the world. I now have enough mini maps to form a world picture and fix the borders of all the states in; Europe minus HRE minors (as in the tiny ones), America minus Mississipi states (which had all collapsed by the last 15th century), Africa and Asia. If you allow me to then I will fix up the map to 1450 but I estimate it will take two months (uni entrance tests in early August plus OCD). If having the map on the week before PMII is launched is too tight for you then I will give all the maps I have gathered to someone else. But be warned, I sourced about 60% of the maps from French and German books (I have a basic grasp of both languages) so I was wondering if you are fine with letting me rework the entire map over the next two months? I sent this to Collie too. Thanks Scandinator (talk)

Most nations are only getting slight modifications but there are many player nations heavily affected. Brandenburg is two times larger than in 1450. Scraw has already picked it. Novogrod (Lx) should be quite a bit larger on the eastern side at the expense of Moscow. And about half the African states don't exist yet. The Incan Empire (Yank) is also about three times too large and France (RWG) is a lot smaller as this map has not shown English (Gala) held territory in the hundred years war and part of Burgundy is lumped into France; Bavaria is also quite a bit too big (Andr3w), Muenster (no-one yet) is massively oversized in the north of HRE, Venice is undersized (me lol) and a lot of the other Balkan and Italian terriotries are too small or too big or non existant on the map. China (Crim) needs to be a bit bigger on the map and the Ottomans are too big in Asia Minor (Dean Sims). Aztec (Kunarian) and Maya are also too big. India and the Middle East need some resizing with missing nations and border fixes. Cambodia is too big and some SE Asian states are non-existant. Indonesian states are too small. Thats kinda all the major changes... The only region not getting a big change is the Iberian Peninsula.

So it kinda seems quite a few players have indentified "larger" nations and picked them -.- SE Asia is really accurate for 1400 and I think you worked off the maps on the net? The problem with them is that they are REALLY limited and vague on years. Thats why I use libraries, head to 911 on the Dewey System for Historical Maps. I think we should add a warning onto the signup list and I'll contact the player nations majorly affected if you want. Also I am proposing giving player nations an idea of what their nation has been through so far before they start. It seems really unrealistic if France and England suddenly became friends before the 1600s, they fought countless times in OTL history and WWI was the first time they allied together O.O. Scandinator (talk) 08:31, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

The biggest nations that no longer exist are Naples, Sicily, Most of the african ones, several in SE Asia and India. But most of the changes are adding nations and shrinking borders. No player nation is non-existant in 1450 though some die out within 50 years. Scandinator (talk) 09:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

What's Scandinator saying is true, and I also think that it could be a good idea to play as regions if your nation is annexed/occupied, for example as I play as Australia in PM1. It was part of Bharat for many years now. Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 09:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Venice needs more land on the Italain Peninsula at the expense of Milan. They also need shriking on the Greek Peninsula. There's one nation in Burma that no longer exists and a few more in India, sorry I lumped them together and just said SE Asia and India. For Indonesia we need to add the vassal states. I have a map of Atjeh and the rest of SE Asia in 1450 so I'll use that. Brunei is fine as it is. I just saw too much black in Indonesia so I assumed the states were too small but then I looked at the map I found and saw we were missing a couple of other states. I assumed Naples still existed since their name was on the signups still. Also should we contact the other players about their nation's size decreasing or increasing? Scandinator (talk) 22:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I misread one of the maps... It said Burmese Kingdoms and grouped two of the states together. My bad. Scandinator (talk) 08:54, July 12, 2012 (UTC)


There's a few users out there that do this - one account per computing device, or per wiki, etc. No harm, no foul - he's fine unless he tries to use it to cheat. Lordganon (talk) 08:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Like you said

So, you say that no people born after 1450. I'm wondering if I can have whole Huniadi and Corvinus family assassinated, so that my custom family could join in. How would that sound? Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 16:02, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nah, Bohemia does not really fall in a huge sphere of importance for me. Nor it has any strategic resources. Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 19:54, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Brythonic Confederation

Brythonic refers to ancient Celts in Britain, not Brittany. Breton is the adjective referring to Brittany. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 04:44, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

I understand that the age of Empires is over, but I was wondering if I could open diplomatic channels with Flanders, and over a long period of time, join them with the Commonwealth. This is just an idea, as you know I started late and have been handicapped on expansion, it would be nice to be a bit larger than the sliver of the Isles and Britanny. I thank you for that BTW.Andr3w777 (talk) 04:05, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I thought it was just Brittany. Carry on, good sir. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 05:38, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

That is good to know, but it was all meant to be back-hand secret dealings but Bharat would not mind Dravidia knowing (plus this is a good chance to get a WWII analogue). :D 1.png Imperium Guy 15:47, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

The British Question

I haven't an issue with that as long as the new Britain is free from foriegn rule. Wales would effetively cease to exist as it would be apart of the ne Britain which I would hopefully control. Ever since I started lpaying I always wanted to play as Britain, but it wasn't available.Andr3w777 (talk) 02:38, July 17, 2012 (UTC)


Um, ok. But could I edit 62 as it would not affect it so much as not many nations have posted in 63? :/ 1.png Imperium Guy 15:43, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Seven Years War

THE MAP GAME HAS BEGUN! --RandomWriterGuy (talk) 00:46, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Seven Years War

THE MAP GAME HAS BEGUN! --RandomWriterGuy (talk) 00:48, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I wanted to get into the PP game, but saw that I was 600 years to late to do anything useful. I do play African nations a lot, but for the flexiablity and capablity to expand. Can't do that in crowded Europe. Once again, thanks for the advice. Your by far the only guy with the exception of a few not to use CAPS or anything. Thank you for that. --"Truth fears no questions..." 04:05, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Dude, I love that region, and I learning the language. You can expect my best! --"Truth fears no questions..." 04:39, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Scandinavia vs. Hanover and Flanders (PM)

Hello Lurk. Apparently Schlewsig-Holstein, a predominantly Nordic are, has joined with Hanover. I am sending propaganda to convince the area or even the whole of Hanover into joining my nation. How long would this take? Is it plausible? I know Hanover is a predominantly German area, but I want to go to war with it, take Schleswig Holstein, overthrow Hanover's government, and make it a puppet or client state. Will the SDL step in?

Also, I know Flanders is French, and hardly Nordic, and that Japan colonized in the past, but I want to get back the area that Sweden used to control in the days of Scandinator. I am sending propaganda there too. Plausible? Possible? If yes, how long will it take?

Also I am requesting that Israel join the Europe-Asia War.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:46, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

OK great, I'm declaring war on Hanover.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:55, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Doctor261 and Seven Years' War Game

Since you play The Seven Years' War the Map Game, and also understand that this game was created to see the French side win, I decided it would be best to come to you. Doctor261 has accused of me of making biased mod actions to make a certain side win on the game. That put me on his blacklist for a year. Then on his talk page I told him that the game was created for Britain to lose. He removed the message, calling it spam. Thoughts? Reactions? I honestly have no idea what to do with this situation. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:05, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's my right to manage my blacklist and your right to manage yours, isn't it? And that's my talk page out there, isn't it? Also, calling for Lurk is not what you have to do in this situation. Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 05:07, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

I don't give one cent for your blacklist. You can put me there indefinitely. I don't care. I came to him because it against the rules to remove talk page content AFAIK. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:11, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

It is my page AFAIK. I can manage it freely. Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 05:12, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Apparently you missed the crucial part of it being against the rule. And technically talk pages are community pages, for others to reach you. It's like your mailbox. Do you burn the mail the postman brings you?

Let's stop quarreling and let him make the call. Any arguments of yours will be ignored.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:16, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

If you wouldn't care about my blackslist, you wouldn't tell that to Lurk. And, could you please redirect me to the rule page where it says that I cannot manage my talk page? Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 05:17, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Your blacklist is why I told you what I told you, which is why you erased what I told you, which is why I came here.

Apparently you do not comprehend blunt English. I bluntly (repititiveness is repetitive, eh?) told you that you cannot remove content from talk pages. And I included it that it was AFAIK. That is why came here. To ask if that was a solid truth or an assumption.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

So, can I please get a link to the rule page, please? :) Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 05:27, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Uh...does "AFAIK" mean anything to you? As Far As I Know? IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:30, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

No. First time I hear this. Thanks for the information :) Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 05:34, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

np IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:45, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, Lurk. Doctor261 (Talk to me!) 16:28, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

OK then, I suppose we can leave it at that. I apologize to Doc if he is offended in any way. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:57, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Aid in PMII

So I know that we're both playing the 2nd PM game, but since this will be the first time I will be playing a full on game of this scale, I just have a few questions here, both about how to play and more nation specific ones:

  • How easy is it to make dynastic unions? Is it just "XXX of the Kingdom of XXX marries XXX of XXX?
  • How exactly did the whole Japanese-Finland thing come together anyway? Is that likely to happen again?
  • At the start of the game, how strong is the HRE? I know that the states have difficulty getting along, but if someone invaded them, could they win?
  • Assuming that the three strongest states of the HRE work together to centralize the union (you know our plan I think), how long would it take, realistically?

If you could answer those questions, that would be good. I think I might have more questions, but so far I forgotten them.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 16:59, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

  1. I assumed the religious thing, but here is another question: "Suppose John of England, who was married to Anne of Scotland, marries Constance of France. His son by his previous marriage marries the Welsh king's daughter." I am assuming that France and England would enter a union, and then England and Wales would join a union when the son became the king. Is that right?
  2. Okay. I was unsure how that happened, and I felt it was kind of unrealistic.
  3. I figured. So if all the states work together, we're basically the strongest state in Europe?
  4. I have a plan to handle the Protestant Reformation. How long do you think it would take to unify the HRE by force, diplomacy, or both?
  5. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:54, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks! Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:29, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, I have one more question. Do personal unions still have to have their countries border each other? I know that the two countries would fare better if they were, but sometimes they occured regardless of that. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 00:55, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Custom Flags

Who's the go-to guy for custom flags on this wiki? I'd like a flag for my client state of Tangiers.

Yank 17:59, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Depressing Times 1930's

Why did you delete Depressing Times 1930's (Map Game)? There's no policy that defunct/dead map games should be deleted; in fact, there are many scattered around the wiki. (They represent users' contributions, as well, and DT1930's had many contributions) (underline is for "emphasis") 77topaz (talk) 06:50, July 24, 2012 (UTC)


I have been working on the map for a little while and it is looking good. I have standardized a new base map (turned it black and white with no other pixels) and am drawing in borders for Europe. I will post pictures after I finish Europe to the PMII page under the current map of PMII. Scandinator (talk) 12:08, July 25, 2012 (UTC)Western Europe 1450 PMII.png

BTW, this is what I have so far. The blue outline is the French royal controlled areas including dynastical fiefdoms and the Imperial border can be seen in purple. Scandinator (talk) 13:56, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Italy, Greece and Japan are done. Also I'm filling in colours since Collie complained about lack of colours last time. Therefore I will use the 216 web colour system to be able to relatively easily obtain decently distinguishable colours for many nations. Scandinator (talk) 12:34, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

France had a similar case to the HRE which is there were multiple states and only one could hold the French throne due to the amount of decentralisation that occured during the 100 years war. In Ireland there are only three states rather than the six that first appear. The English Pale, pro- Anglo-Irish states (essentially vassals) and normal Irish states. In Italy there were enough tiny states to be annoying to draw out but not enough to lump them together since many were too spread out. I'm not going to even try to draw them out for the German ones... I'd say give it 25 turns and most microstates would be annexed. The French and HRE are the only regions with a coloured border since those are the only regional unions formed without personal or dynastic unions.

Also I have a problem, European nations did not know of East Asia till the mid 16th century and vica versa. Therefore I propose to ban treaties and contact between zones more than 2 regions apart (the regions being Western Europe, Eastern Europe and Asia Minor, Middle East and Transcaucasia, India and Central Asia, China and SE Asia, Japan).

Therefore Japan can reach India and Central Asia but not the Middle East and Eastern European nations can reach India but not China. I propose we have this in place till 1550 to prevent "xxx (Europe) allies with Japan" and then a turn later "Japan sends military support to xxx in Europe"

Colonization was easier for nations with a large fleet and the closer to the New World the better. Therefore to begin colonization I'm proposing Japan, Siam and China can "colonize" areas east of Hawaii and north of Australia from the start of the game and then reach the Americas by 1510. Portugal, Castille, England, Scotland, Aragon, Genoa, Venice, Norway, France in that order with a 2-5 year gap can start colonizing the Caribbean from 1495 and then the continents them selves after 15 years of presence in America. That way the structure of colonization will be similar to OTL. We also need to prevent indication of the existance of East Asia in European posts and indication of the existance of Europe in Asian posts. Scandinator (talk) 23:09, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

hmmm. problem was they found the Caribbean first and it would also emulate the huge number of nations with holdings on one or two Caribbean Islands.Scandinator (talk) 03:02, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

About PM II again, which is the maximum number of colonies that a nation can have?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:12, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with 204, 0, 255 is it's too similar to Japan. Is an orange better since there are still no requests for yellow, orange, pink or brown. If yes, is 255, 153, 102 ok? Scandinator (talk) 00:07, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

How should the Ainu and Najavo work? I'm thinking natives have to form a nation at one point on the map and expand outwards into their maximum territory from there. Giving the Ainu all of Hokkaido seems a least implausable at 1450. And then after they have completed their territory, if they have contact with other nations they can play normally. What do you say? Scandinator (talk) 11:32, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well if you think about it... Nations control the area which is coloured but tribal groups control only a small part of the whole. Maybe we give them an area of a few pixels to start and they can expand into the rest of their tribal group area to form a nation. If they are in contact with other civilisations then they reach the same tech level in a few years but if not they cannot reach past gunpowder and paper. Scandinator (talk) 05:12, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

China (Principia Moderni)

Crim has, in denying the requests for autonomy, given me the perfect reason for the Manchurians and the Mongolians to break away. The recent Chinese denial of the autonomy plan would likely piss them off enough to take the more radical step of declaring independance.

Yank 20:49, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Tagieran-Algerian War

I'm going to have Tangiers declare war on Algeria. It's because they don't want to have an unstable, and potentially hostile, Islamic country bordering them. Also I'm going to have Cyrencia and Triplolitania join the war, as well as Vietnam. What will it take to have the SPL not intervene in this war? Yank 00:32, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

why is it so important to sign in all the time?- ForMotherRussia


For the sake of everyone's sanity (especially mine and Collie's) and to achieve an aesthetically pleasing map I have merged about 1000 states into nearby larger states. This allows for smoother borders and prevents a massive grey glob representing about 1000 states. It also allows for more realistic algorithm results so a nation attacking the HRE wont have to attack 1000 tiny states. The map should be ready by the end of next week :D only india, russia, eastern europe and africa left... --Scandinator (talk) 11:00, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also what to do with Ragusa... Sine signed up for the Byzanitines first then changed to Dalmatia (Hugarian state) and then to Ragusa which is not big enough to fit on the map (less the 50sqkm) and is essentially a Venetian puppet. Do I add him and wipe out a chunk of another nation's territory or leave it out until he expands?Scandinator (talk) 11:05, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Small German States does not work when there are 100s too small to be 1 px and some bigger than other nations outside of the HRE. It also would screw up algorithms since the value for civil disarray would be added in, making it possible to devaste the HRE by taking a couple hundred minor states out in one go and ensuring total collapse of the HRE. It also is going back to the old days of the HRE as a nation. This way several HRE states formerly classed as in the mess actually are represented on the map which is important since a couple are electors. For Ragusa I have contacted him but he has not replied and giving him 1px would wipe out an entire Venetian stronghold with the border... I'm not sure anyone wants a state with a population of 32,000. I you are unhappy with the way the HRE is represented maybe we should have a vote with the other mods, I'd be happy to change it. Scandinator (talk) 01:42, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to label it after I finished the nations so that it is easier to manage rather than names everywhere and thus also split the maps into a labelled one for talk and the one everyone sees on the main page. But I'll need to know how you did it on the other map. Also on your point with the algorythm... we need to be able to have both sides of a conflict able to gain land and relistically the stronger states like Hesse and the Palatinate would be able to take land and also at the time had a degree of conrol over their smaller neighbours so this map is more geopolitically correct. It's also not very fair as Brandenburg and Bavaria are the same size as a couple of the ones that were put in the Small German States and exert less political force than some (Palatinate was an elector, Bavaria was not) and I'm sure that the 50 nations on the map won't all be there by the end of the first 100 years thanks to the HRE's reunification plans...Scandinator (talk) 03:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

...I finished it... somehow. I'll start adding in names but im not sure how to since they blur up in paint and I don't really use anything else... What did you use on your map? Scandinator (talk) 11:58, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks I'll give it a shot. Scandinator (talk) 22:51, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Done :D. You can check it out on the page! Scandinator (talk) 06:05, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Collie's checked it and found a few mistakes, those I have fixed. In regards to the game itself, I believe we should post a nice long mod post to start things off and set the scene. e.g.:

There would be more of course but my opinion is that everyone starting fresh on everything but stability isn't fair and we kinda need to set the scene. Scandinator (talk) 01:09, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

These events would be realistic but some would dirverge slightly from OTL and ither mod posts will dirverge further and further as time goes by. With the fragmented states in Asia, thats what's given to all the hordes and some of the small states that they border (raids come often). In India it is because of the fragmentation of the Sultanate of Delhi thanks to the Timurids who ransacked it. Other than that there aren't many more except for Shan States in Burma and a couple smaller kingdoms which face internal and external threats and feuding Rajputs in India.

England faces revolts in Ireland and is exhausted by years of war with France which was allowed Wales to break free.
French armies approach Normandy confident of victory against the poorly defended English forts.
The Ottoman Empire continues into its 12th year of military expansion as Murad successfully defeats Karamanid and prepares to expand west...
Hungary, the HRE and Venice are rattled by their losses against the Ottoman Empire which resulted in large gains for the Ottomans in the Balkans.
The recent annexation of Naples has the other Italian states worried that they will be next...

Lobositz Lamentable Loss

Sorry for the delay, but the game has now begun! RandomWriterGuy (talk) 05:44, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Principia Moderni II

I've decided to go with Dai Viet instead of the Incans.

Yank 18:31, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

No need, I updated the sign-up list already except for Africa. I found two problems by doing that which will be fixed shortly. Also your advice on the mod-messages, I understand... I was stupid enough to believe that I could abuse my mod position to give my nation an advantage with my last and largest expansion phase, but I'll tell you, had I not quit and the mod event been allowed, there would have been a USSR (United Scandinavian Socialist Republics) that would create a real ideological Cold War in the timeline. I even planned out an Iron Curtain Speech, "from Belomorsk on the White Sea to Calais on the Channel across to England and North America, lies an Iron Curtain..." Instead the largest commie nation is Aragon... Ah well. I'll make sure not to repeat that performance and act with no bias to mine or any nation (studying history that should be easy now :P). Scandinator (talk) 14:17, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

My Hindustani Plan (PM).png

Well, I am in Germany and have only had acess to a computer today. On all 3 of my ban days I was sightseeing :P. But thanks for that. I had great plans for it [all those nations], here is a map to show what I mean. I now realize that I have made quite a lot of maps. Btw, why isn't the southern part of Afghanistan in Bharati colour? That's still part of UKH. I might manage to post this year but I'll properly start by Sunday, I think.

On a side note, being in Germany sreams to me that things could have been sooo different. When you visit Checkpoint Charlie you see what the checkpoint looked like in the Cold War!!

So yeah! :D 1.png Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:02, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

32 players and counting... Europe is filled to the gills... And I'm running out of colours .-. Scandinator (talk) 23:58, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

I first apologize for not consulting with you first on this. I don't think players should be allowed to play the large groups of city states like the Mayans, Zapotecs and Andeans without consulting the mods first. That would be unfair to the other single state nations nearby, Aztec, Chichen Itza, Inca and akin to a HRE player. Ever notice when a player joins as a nation in civil disarray they go "xxx leaves civil disarray" well in this case they'd probably end up going "xxx unites to form the yyy nation" and then we get a nation formed by a 200 city states in a year... implaugasm. But I haven't taken them off completely and I've said that these nations can be played if you ask a mod. But until there is a request, us, the mods, will run these states to prevent a player joining and posting implaugasms in their first turn. Scandinator (talk) 01:40, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't said you are not allowed to play them, I said to play them you must ask a mod. Scandinator (talk) 02:40, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

Also I've been researching the process of industrialisation with a friend at school and we identified the causes of Britain's successful industrialism. Needless to say I'm posting this here because in PM, Russia would not have made the cut. I propose for PMII we set the following requirements for a nation to industrialise.

  • Centre of trade, private banking system (Self explanitory and Russia's out already)
  • A stable environment (no wars or revolts occuring WITHIN that nation (eg www has attacked xxx, yyy and zzz winning all the algorythms by a magrin of aaa%(<20%?) for the last xx years (20-50?))
  • Large colonial empire or extremely large resource rich empire. Both must have a large population (provides income and a market for goods)
  • Capitalist theory (enlightment ideas which came from England...)
  • Not an absolute monarchy (can be constitutional monarchy or even better a republic)
  • A large supply of coal or wood within the home nation

As you can see OTL England met all these critreon. And Russia in PM meets 3, 5 and 6 only. What do you think? Scandinator (talk) 11:18, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

Zagoria hasn't join PMII. Has he left the wikia? Also what to you think of the mod events? Scandinator (talk) 16:25, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to add a simple rule that speaks for itself, no coast no colony. Also I propose to scrap the vassal and union rules on having to be contiguous. This is not how it worked OTL many many times. We should also add a revolt chance to the unions and vassals when they get asked to go to war. This will remove the continuous use of vassals in wars all the time and is explainable since smaller nations get war exhaustion a lot faster. Finally I propose a start time change. Instead of starting at UTC 0000, lets start turns at 1200, this allows easier access for East North American and Asian timezones to post mod events. Otherwise you would start the turn at about 7pm and me at 10am instead of the proposed 7am for the East Coast and 10pm for me. Otherwise I will have to post mod events 2 hours early since I usually lose access to my laptop at 8am my time or 2200 UTC Scandinator (talk) 02:58, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

That penality is reasonable but we should add a revolt risk to simulate things better as when partaking in a war your vassal or union nation may revolt. I propose the chance is 1/1000 for vassals, 1/100 for a personal union, 1/50 for dynastical unions and 1/25 for political unions. Scandinator (talk) 06:11, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Dean Sims Blog

Okay, so Dean tries to rejoin the community after a month long ban only to begin to act the same way he used to. And then game players begin to mock him on a blog in which he has just bid this wiki good bye.

You ask Ganon if this should be deleted? Well, I think deleting the offensive remarks is fully in an admin's abilities. In fact, I never found out if the original poster can control remarks to his own post. The Deletion Notice has not been authorized for blogs yet, but since we never have defined a blog, I guess we can treat it like an article (it "worked" against me!). Dean is at home among friends at the "Implausible Alternate History" wiki, so I doubt if he has much interest staying around over here. I am sure he won't mind us deleting the comment strings, but the blog is nothing but a statement of frustration and should remain unless he himself wishes to remove it. The blog is in no way offensive in and of itself, so it should stay. SouthWriter (talk) 04:18, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

Delete so-called "offensive" comments, and put the thing under protection. Lordganon (talk) 20:41, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hello Lurk. I have a proposition for Italy in PM. Von and I cooked up a plan to create a large dynastic union out of several nations in Europe. Scandinavia and Russia have already entered dynastic union, as have France and Burgundy. Now the next step would be to have the Crown Prince/Tsesarevich marry someone from Italy. Does Italy have anyone? A princess, a duchess, maybe even Crown Princess? Then the child of the Scandinavian-Italian union would be bethroted to the Franco-Burgundian heiress and by 2020 the nations of Scandinavia, Russia, France, Burgundy, and Italy would be in dynastic union.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:47, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

lobolitz lementable loss

interested in making eastern asia a place of competition in the future between japan and china, and making a large rivalry between the 2 nations. Nkbeeching

It is? Pity. Which other nations in Europe have a monarchy? IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:06, August 21, 2012 (UTC)


Hey, Lurk. I was wondering if I could join in PMII despite not playing PMI since its very early parts. I do believe I could just sign in as the nation I want (the Florentine Republic) but I thought I'd rather ask you since I wasn't too sure.

Also, a friendly heads-up; the Tutul Xiu from Uxmal could compete with the Cocome and Itza in Chichen Itzá, so I'd either add them as a separate nation or play them as a different modnation.Fed (talk) 04:02, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Venetia (Principia Moderni)

I've decided to have Venetia declare independance from Italy. I'm torn between them joining Savoy or remaining independant. Don't worry, either choice keeps Venice in the Italian sphere of influence. We don't want the radical Venice of the past to re-emerge. Yank 17:32, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the event, but I must remind you that I worded it so that they became a client of Italy, so you would have technically not lost a square inch of territory. I don't think it's possible for Italy to be so "homogenized" as you say. The Venetians, who were among the last to be annexed into Italy (then Naples), have the most potential for nationalism. It's not like I took a core territory like Sicily from you.

Yank 23:35, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

My response to your comment on talk page

I understand you. I just only wanted to know, how it would look. I didn't want really to insult him Wijata Mateusz (talk) 18:35, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

BTW can you delete this post. I had created it for nothing, because i said about those comments and i discovered the reason why comments were deleted on Dean post on TSPTF talk page Wijata Mateusz (talk) 19:04, August 24, 2012 (UTC)


Kara beans black in Turkish. What you want to write in PMII is: Ag Qoyunlu. Saamwiil (talk) 16:25, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Also, the only reason there is an attack on Italy is because there is no United States. The Turkish Government didn't attack you... Saamwiil (talk) 16:35, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

A Darker Place

i would like to know if this timeline is biased or anything to make changes i started it a while and decided to continue it, whats written on the talk page was a rough idea which i am going to change alot, just want to have other peoples opinions. if you are intrigued by the TL help is always wanted as a consult to the text. Nkbeeching

Question whats your opinion of my character Victor Tudor from the timeline A Darker Place. im asking because ive started writing my story using him as the base but the chapters arent connected yet, they very from his years in the war to his later life and his brutality towards Natalia. he is one of my favorite characters that i have ever invented.

Revolts, Collapses and Climate

Hey LurkerLord, I was reading some scientific journals in the last couple of days and found a REALLY interesting article on nations and uprisings and how time and climate affect these things. Via the reading, a nation's stability runs on a 200 year cycle. They start of a little shakey, stabilize and remain stable until 200 years after founding or a government change, about that time they get a series of revolts for a period of 50 years and then cool off for another 150. This seemingly mathematical application to history was proven by an American professor who was able to connect the previously unnoticed cycle of unrest within the Romans, Russians and Medieval Europe. Therefore I propose to alter a nation's stability calculations to fit this. Not only that but cooling of .5 degrees celcius causes a vast increase in wars and conflicts as crop cycles shift causing disatisfaction and movements within nations. Proof is the Thirty Years War during the Little Ice Age and Napoleon in the aftermath of Loki's eruption and subsequent cooling of the atmosphere thanks to ash. Scandinator (talk) 06:30, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

since England broke away from Britain, could the Brythonic Commonwealth absorb it? We share the same religion and we are geographically close.These are not the droids you are looking for. 01:12, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

So I propose we have 250 years with positive stab, then 50 negative then 150 positive. etc So if nation x was founded in 1250. They go negative in 1500-1550, 1700-1750, 1900-1950. I'll try and see if I can find the article online Scandinator (talk) 06:05, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Japan Vs China

my main interests are korea, taiwan, sakhalin and southern china in the coast area. but after the war i plan on moving onto establishing puppets throughout asia i have little colonial aspirations in the game other then domination of the pacific. my interests will be purely economic for most of the game. but i probably will try and seize areas of the chinese coast at least as economic zones. Nkbeeching

We can work it out in game ill consider it though, i personally have little interest in Manchruria since the russian player will probably go after it. i realize japan has no chances of ruling china but i want to secure a few ports or regions, again we can discuss ingame in the end i will probanly stick to only Korea, Taiwan and Sakhalin. also please give me your opinion of A Darker Place i value the opinion of senior althistorians greatly.


Thanks for the imput, im might be changing one or 2 things in the russia PoD or i will directly cut it out.



The thing with hindus is that we do not have specific "sect" schools for every different type of hindu. Hinduism is regarded as one by its followers but the sects are personal and don't affect stuff like schools. This is what I know, so it might not be completely accurate but I think it is fairly true. :D 1.png Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:16, September 1, 2012 (UTC)


Well, I was taking it that you could edit the map I put up. I thought it was okay that I edit Turkey so that it would be accurate. Can I still edit it after you (or someone else) puts up the real map. Saamwiil (talk) 15:48, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


Deansims said I could have the Ottoman Empire in another game, not PMII. So I ask if I can switch it back. He has only been online once, and when I told him that wasn't the game I wanted the Ottoman Empire in, he never responded. So, I'm asking, with such conditions, I can be the Ottoman Empire, it is what you agreed upon before, no? Saamwiil (talk) 21:45, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I have honestly no idea about the game he was talking about. The page for that game he was talking about doesn't even exist, but he didn't adress Principia Moderni at all, pretty random. You can look on my talk page, if you wish. Saamwiil (talk) 22:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Aq Qoyunlu-lu were friendlier with the Europeans than the Ottoman. Wish for an alliance, will help against the English. Saamwiil (talk) 22:13, September 4, 2012 (UTC)


The only reason why the older games haven't been renamed in this fashion is because of the work involved.

All articles relating to a map game have been named in this fashion for months.

Lordganon (talk) 04:53, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

wen does pm 2 start? Proud Leader of the Althistory Revolution (User talk:DeanSims)

Not the one to point fingers...

Hey LurkerLord, I'm not the one that points fingers around but the recent development in France has my sockpuppet meter off the scales. We have three users joining the Wikia; 1 three days ago and two today; who insantly sign up for PMII and nothing else, as French states and immediately ally and invade France with no talk messages or any communication. And to top it off they were all online and the same time posting one after another almost perfectly. Scandinator (talk) 06:20, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Not only that but one has identified himself as Australian while another is called Aussie Dude... and they are spamming turns. Scandinator (talk) 06:21, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Already a line into Wikia about it, couple hours before Scan posted. Lordganon (talk) 06:36, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Been looking at the PMII edit history, they screwed up the indenting...several times even after I fixed it. And they are scarily co-ordinated in their posts. Example, Brittany posts AAA, Anjou responds to AAA in two minutes....this is not normal.... Scandinator (talk) 11:12, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Wikia confirms that the are the same. Blocked. Lordganon (talk) 00:46, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Japan Vs. China

so how are we going to do this. shall we play out how the war will go or just go by year. and i think someone that isnt either of us should do the algorithem. while yes chinese population and massive army has a major part to do with it i cant help but feel the algorithem system is to one sided for the nation with a larger pop in real situation population wasnt the greatest factor and small populace nations could beat larger populace ones.

through in taiwan Nkbeeching


Again, i need to ask:

  1. - how many colonies is possible to have?
  2. - there is still a vassal limit?
  3. - now one that concerns Portugal in-game. on OTL, Isabel de Coimbra (Afonso V's wife) dies in i need to have her dying in 1455 as well?

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:13, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

The article two is because France has 7 vassals, a number that goes against the rules, despite being historically accurate. (maybe) so, what is to be done with this?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:40, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Other about #3 - what about possible heirs? the ones who exist on OTL born after 1450 need to have the same names as there?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:15, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Other: as you can see on the map, the Canary islands are still in black. However, historically, there was the Kingdom of Canary islands (technically, a "kingdom" ruling over the Canary islands, originally having Castille as their overlord, and having as objective conquer the Canary islands, at which point it would be incorporated into Castille) Kingdom that was comprised by the islands of Lanzarote, El Hierro and Fuerteventura.or, somebody would have to do it. but it didn't happen. Then, in 1448, the "ruler" sold the lordship of the "kingdom" to Portugal. so, this means that i got only Lanzarote, or the other two islands?or none?

P.S. - kingdom and ruler are between marks because the state wasn't exactly autonomous.

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:52, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Houston We Have A Problem

I appear to be unable to read the PMII talkpage. What's with that?

Yank 23:50, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

As a note to the problem Yank posted here about - a lot of that problem has to do with the length of the talk page. Thing needs to be archived. Lordganon (talk) 22:53, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

As Bavaria is finally united and Wurttemberg my vassal, may i edit the PMII page to reflect that? Also now that I am a Grand Duchy, and fairly powerful, Can I become an elector?These are not the droids you are looking for. 22:23, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Location for the Protestant Reformation

A lot of why the Reformation was able to succeed was that the early reformers were protected by local rulers in dispute with other powers. Luther, for example, was sheltered by the ruler of Saxony, who was on bad terms with the Emperor, and in dispute. This was true for those in Switzerland to some degree as well, and definitely the case in Scotland. Or a monarch could start it by breaking with the Church. Depends.

A few of those locations could be called plausible, but in many ways, in depends on the reformer chosen, or the reasons behind it.

The Adriatic, however, is definitely out.

For it to begin without it being a problem between a king - note, has to be a kingdom, not a smaller state, for it to actually work - you need it to be in a politically fractured area like the HRE.

Basically, tell me roughly how you'd like it to start, and I could give you a location.

Lordganon (talk) 04:11, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

What you're describing is a lot like otl - only the cause of the indulgences/increased tithes is wars instead of construction projects.

It'd be somewhere in Germany in that scenario.

A ruler going through it needs to have it happen politically, not economically. Rulers weren't the ones charged the money by the Church, realistically.

Lordganon (talk) 00:37, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Former Chatagai (PMII)

Let me discuss what you are planning for the former Chatagai Khanate, so that we can stay on the same page. I'm guessing that the Chatagai offensive is going to fail, resulting in the Khanate either being forced to stay the same size or be annexed completely. Am I right?

Yank 00:31, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Multiple nations in PMII

It has come to my attention that Scraw is controlling Brandenburg, Pomarania, Luxembourg, Aragon and Navarra. Brandenburg is his main nation and he has a royal marriage with Aragon but that is it. Scandinator (talk) 09:41, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

PMII Stuff

Hey Lurker, what should i do if I am trying to negotiate a marriage alliance with a player nation who has not posted for some time? I left him a message but he has not responded. Should I take matters into my own hands or wait and hope he gets back to me?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:39, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, he did? I didn't notice.

Okay, I will do that. Also, can you help me with the Savoy algorithim, as it is still not done and I don't know how to do the rest of it.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:20, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, as far as I can see, he hasn't posted in game since 1457. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:26, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Lurker, can you look at the treaty I proposed Savoy on the HRE talk page and see if they would accept? It should be at the bottom.


Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:23, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Protestant Reformation (PMII)

I'm thinking that the hypocritical Papal actions towards Ireland may piss the Scottish enough to spark the reformation. Or it may just get the ball rolling for another incident in the future to break the camel's back.

Yank 23:58, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

...There never was any such heresies in Ireland. An English Pope said all of those things to legitimize his King's actions, mostly after the fact.

For that matter, there's also no heretics in Ireland.

So, in truth, in this, it is one Catholic state attacking other Catholic states, without justification.

Scotland wouldn't do anything.

Really, you should make a point of telling those two to stuff it. The majority of that isn't true, and all Europe would know it.

All that being said, it could easily be the first instance of events that start the ball rolling toward a Reformation starting somewhere.

Lordganon (talk) 01:37, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I won't post till you do. But, if you're not intending to retreat, then I will have no choice but declare war. Also, I'm reading you think on making the Reformation on this... Good idea! I would ask... Will the King support it? Will the peasants? (I mean, is the king the one who is pissed off because of this). --Galaguerra1 (talk) 20:45, September 22, 2012 (UTC)


Interesting. Okay, I could wait till then, you could post it either on my talk page or on the Papal talk page. ChrisL123 (talk) 21:16, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

May be you could have theologists in the future, or even spread the movement to the main Europe and elt the "reformation" evolve there. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:33, September 23, 2012 (UTC)


What did you use for all those maps?

Vinland (Principia Moderni II)

I'm planning on having the Vinlanders intermarry with the local Beothuk to produce a Metis-type hybrid culture. They both have their reasons for doing so. The Vinlanders do so because of their limited numbers, and the Beothuk are doing so because they are being devestated by the diseases brought by the Danish. I'm also planning on them expanding their power by using tactics that would be well at home in Sun Tzu's playbook. Can you halp me keep this plausible without killing my idea entirely?

Yank 18:52, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Dimurat (PMII)

Can we have the Kazakh-Mongols not invade Dimurat? Can we have them try to take revenge on Ryazan for "their" assasination attempt?

Yank 18:13, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, yeah, 'their'.

Well, anyway it's happening in the next 4-5 years, so I gues it doesn't matter. Thanks for the tip, though. The Royal Guns (talk) 00:25, September 27, 2012 (UTC)


That's the problem. I haven't a clue. To be frank, it's getting to be a bit of pain in the side, but he asked me to hang onto it. If he's not back by 1500, you can put it up as an NPC for someone to play as.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 02:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

As tempting as it sounds, why would I seperate the two? IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 03:35, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

No no, I was thinking someone else could play Aragon, like you and Imp did with Dravidia and Bharat in PMI. Both countries remain in union, but two seperate people control them.

Also, can we get one thing clear? As much as Scan believes it, Navarre is not a vassal of Aragon. It belongs to Aragon. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 03:47, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...I see. This is getting complicated. IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 15:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Well, yeah

Yeah, I yeah, I know. I just didn't want to declare war on him. Eventually (who knows how long) it will come to that. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:08, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Ours goes away in 70. So I'm trying to get in before then. Otherwise the mongols will be a really tough challenge.

A Soviet Axis

I'm trying to make a timeline about an alliance, if only temporary, between Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia during the early stages of World War II. I have thought of a PoD in which somehow Germany's invasion of France is delayed by a year, and Operation Pike is used. Operation Pike are plans for the bombing of Soviet oil fields in the Caucasus. Any thoughts? Thanks. Flag of South Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number|So call me maybe) 19:48, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Here's the Timeline. Flag of South Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number|So call me maybe) 19:50, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The Castillian player is still active?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:41, October 3, 2012 (UTC)


I'm concerned about the demands that Guns and Lx are forcing Agent into. First they say they will not annex anything, then 10% then 20% now they are demanding 60% and if not then he is wiped out of the game. This behaviour is reminicent of other territory grabbing map games where "gangs" of players target single players. Ultimately those map games fail as alliances crumble into backstabbing. Obviously PM is not meant to be like that and is meant to have a welcoming atmosphere. We have already lost Georgia's player thanks to that war and Agent is behaving very weirdly when I bring up PM to the point where he raged at me yesterday and claimed he was gonna quit and take the map game down with him. Obbviously I have taken the threat seriously and I advise you to tell Guns and Lx to lay off the pressure. Scandinator (talk) 02:58, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Not nescessarily that, that was just an example. Seemed to be the strongest untaken nation. Didn't know it was taken (oops).

Actually, the war started before Agent came back. He had been missing for two weeks, P-L was defenceless. Can you blame us for attacking?

Next, I NEVER said I would only ask for 10-20%. My bottom line has always been at least 50%. The other 10% we are not taking, it is to be made into a vassal state for ALL pf us, inculding him.

That said, I agree that I behaved a little angrily. I wouldn't have taken more than 30% from him, total, if he had not attempted to threaten us. He threatened to join the HRE and wipe us out, despite being in a horrible position, and I got ticked off.

So, I will lay off him, but I will absolutely not take less than the 50% promised.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:10, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to respond here, because I don't want to type the same thing to two different people.

The Russian states cannot possibly think to take all of both Poland and Lithuania. Taking and controlling all of Lithuania itself would be a tough challenge, if they tried to take out all of that, they would collapse. Wiping him out of the game is impractical for their nations.

If gangs of nations keep fighting wars, they are going to wreck themselves in any future algorithms. If a bunch of the players quit because they dislike a realistic algorithm that penalizes them for constant wars, then bad for them and good for the game. If someone would like to propose that the recent wars counter be extended to 30 years, I would be happy to support that. I might even do it myself. Any moderator is free to hit warmongering nations with moderator events as punishments for constant war.

Georgia's player quite simply picked a bad nation. Little nations on the fringes of growing Empires are going to be annexed. He is free to pick another nation, as are any nations

If AgentMars tries to take the game down, I assume similar to Eldwolf-style, then he will get banned from this wiki permanently. There's no excuse for vandalism. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:43, October 5, 2012 (UTC)


questions whats the best way to break up the Malaccan league for future wars and conquests? Nkbeeching

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what the bloody hell Was that for can u READ!


Masterire (talk) 18:07, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Northern Europe (PMII)

I'm going to lay out my plans for Northern Europe in the the coming years. I want you to tell me what you think of them.

  1. The southern part of Finn territory becomes split between the Grand Duchies of Turku and Helsinki. The northern half becomes controled by the Saami, who take Turku and Helsinki as vassals. The Saami eastern border becomes the OTL eastern border of Finland.
  2. The leaders of the Saami, Norweigans, Danes invite the Swedes to a conference for peace. They take the opportunity to kill the Swedish king and divide his lands. I remember that this sort of clock-and-dagger stuff was common in those days, and it would be delightfully ironic to see the Swedes get divided after how arrogant Scand had been in the last map game.

Yank 03:50, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Ahem... Maybe I should reconsider the deal with you Yank... but yea, the Finns would be impossible for the Saami to control. Also events in the last game should not influence this game at all. Anyways the reason I'm here is because I may come and go for the next 4 weeks. I may not post each day. After that ManofSteele will most likely return. AgentMars is in the same situation thanks to the lovely Australian university entrance exams we have to take. Scandinator (talk) 04:49, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'm still going to have Turku and Helsinki stabilize the remains of the country. That was really the only thing written in stone. What if we have the Norwegians and the Swedes instead do it to Dennmark, considering the material I read on the Kalmar Union had it basically in the pocket of the Danes. It's mostly just an idea, hence why I talked to you first before posting. --Yank 23:02, October 10, 2012 (UTC)


I'm planning on having the Dimuratis take the last Timurid sucessor state and the westernmost portion of the Khanate of Khiva as vassal states. All in all I think life is good for the Dimuratis. What do you think the name of the Timurid successor in civil dissarray is?

Yank 15:48, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Hey just help us out please, the rules are lacking in this area so I'm a bit lost. Basically in Gujarat's war against Sind meant that Gujarat could annex 19.725% of Sind. Then Rajaputana won by enough so they could annex 13.75%. Thus in total Sind lost 33.475% of territory which is above the 33.33% needed to send a nation into civil disarray. Basically I'm just checking that it is okay for Gujarat & Rajaputana to combine scores so that we get the 33.33% needed to collapse Sind's government. Its just that I don't recall anything about two separate nations being able to join forces to do something like this. So is it okay that Sind's government collapse and Gujarat & Rajaputana divide Sind between themselves? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:43, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, just making sure because its two different nations combining scores. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:12, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

PM stuff

I was wondering, how exactly does Venice's "Diplomatic Union" work? I find it somewhat implausible that Venice is able to de facto vassalize five other states in about two - three turns.

Also, the HRE government has been centralising the empire over the last 10 - 12 turns or so. The goal of this is to turn the HRE from a weak confederacy to a semi-federal state with a federal government. I know not every state would agree to that, but the Consitution really is fair for each one, and I doubt any state would rise up after the strongest either joined the Federal camp or were chrushed in warfare.

I also know that the reformation might put an end to that, but do you think it is plausible for the government to centralise itself in little more than a decade if no one objected? And how would that be shown on the map?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:46, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

A Few PM II Questions

Hey Lurk! I wanted to ask you a few different questions to get your idea on somethings.

1. I believe that the Reformation is coming soon, and with the current atmosphere in Europe, with all these wars and catholic "Holy Wars" I know something is going to happen.

  1. Is it logical for Bavaria's upper classes to be complaining about the costs of all these wars and Holy Wars as they are the ones primarily banking it all?
  2. I would really like if it is possible for Bavaria to be one of the heads of the reformation. I am trying to make it a good, fertile land for that(I sometimes like to start controversy:) )
  • On a side note, is it possible to merge vassals into your state? Baden-Wurttemberg has been my vassal for a long time and practically the entire leadership is blood related to the Bavarian King. In OTL they are states right next to one another, they are both German, and I believe their cultures are fairly similar.
  • How would I go about turning Bavaria into the Banking Capital of the world?(sorta OTL Switzerland) I am much more into ruling and being influential through PEACE instead of war.

I know these are all rather broad, but I want to try to make a more important state than my measly Wales back in PM I. Also any suggestions on my game performance? I just want to insure I stay relatively plausible.

Thanks in advance

Andr3w777 (talk) 17:55, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Aragon-Brandenburg Seperation

Hey Lurk, can we seperate Brandenburg and Aragon after the Caliphate war is over? Also, can you do the algorithm? I know you'll be the only unbiased mod.

IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 21:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate HRE War

I wanted to ask you because you seem to be the only one who could do anything about this. A lot of people are joining in this conversation and pointing fingers and getting extremely emotionally charged about this. I just joined in the conversation and didn't say anything but people are starting to think I'm a bad person because words are being misinterperted and taken the wrong way. Here's my request: since so many people are mad and will continue fighting until something bad happens, can you just call the war a tie, or stalemate, or something? I just don't want anybody getting hurt or anybody's reputation being ruined just because they mad about this or that. I'm begging you, for the sake of the whole game. Please. CourageousLife (talk) 03:09, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Map Game Wiki

I've been thinking about this idea for a long time.

Basically, it would have four advantages:

A) Map Games would not be restricted to althistory.

B) The reputation of this wiki wouldn't be so downgraded by them a-holes on

C) It would have the effect of less clutter on this wiki.

D) It could have rules specifically designed for Map Games, including rules about defunct ones, etc.

What do you think?

A suggestion as to rules:

A) there would be a hierarchy, similar to the one on this wiki (called the Grand Council of Cartography, or something like that.)

B) Only these members would be allowed to mod on map games. This makes awkward runaway implausogasm situations or biased mod problems less likely.

C) There would be stricter rules about edit wars and the like. This wiki primarily devotes itself to althistory, so there is practically no solid rules on map games. This wiki would have them.

D) To get into the mod group, you would have to be part of the initial group of users (probably all from althist, people like you, me, scraw, etc), or have used the wiki for at least 6 months. This would be the lowest level, with the same 3 levels thing. For those 6 months, you would have to prove that you are plausible, polite, respecting of the rules, etc.

E) There would be a centralized algorithm, with lots of variations for different scenarios. This eliminates the @#$% idiotic algorithms that you see in some of the worse map games on this wiki.

Haven't gotten much further than that, any suggestions would be welcome!

The Royal Guns (talk) 23:30, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

now, that i apparently can colonize, the limit for expansion in America is the usual colonial expansion limit (up to 4 px if the colony is less than 5 years old, and 20 after the first five years), or is the same as Africa (1 px regardless of age)?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:20, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Somebody proposed this limit for mainland expansion on Africa, after seeing me expanding too much with Serra Leoa before it was settleable.i thought that it had been approved.this limit only would last until further notice. the thread about this is somewhere in the archives.probably archive 2.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:59, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

No one ever supported the limit but Scandinator, so it was definitely not passed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:06, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Naples + The HRE War

I'm getting worried about Naples' territory grabbing, he has taken, Montenegro, Bosnia, Savoy, Provence, Palatinate, Lorriane and is colonizing in Africa and South America far too early. And before you complain about hypocrites and such, notice the asterix against the Byzantine Empire in nations sign up. All I wanted to do was to rejuvenate Byzantium and that has been successful. I don't mind if a new player takes it.

Another issue is that the HRE needs to lose its non-German territories sometime before the mid 17th century. I'm not sure how we should start it but it needs to be done, after all, Japan and China will experience troubles next century and with the Caliphate breaking up why does Christian Europe get to experience happy days and peaceful nights? Scandinator (talk) 02:40, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Naples does not control the Palatinate, and neither controls Lorraine, that belongs to England. Naples is not colonizing America, just exploring it, as do the other countries such as Aragon, Burgundy, Castile, Portugal, Amerca cant be colonized yet. Naples does not colonize Africa, has established two factories merely for trade, and that's what we continue to do, because can not yet colonize Africa according to the rules. Bosnia was partitioned between Naples and Venice ... Savoy was a dynastic union, which was just like the Byzantine dynastic marriages with Epirus, Albania and Serbia. Provence is the only vassal of Naples. I'm just saying this so that you do not get confused and go wrong again, like you did before with the Caliphate. But I forgive you. Quiari (talk) 15:47, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well Scan when we get the Mahdi, we're going stupidly hyper expansionist. Once the Mahdi's rule falls apart as he is seen as a fraud, a large civil war will ensue, and many successor states will be made as a result. As well as the foundations for a more liberal Islamic faith too.

Also don't forget Russia, they shouldn't have just the fun and happy times either! Sorry about butting in lol VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:52, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Most east slavic cultures have not diverged to the point of actual dissernable difference yet and almost all russians are Orthodox unless you come from poland, Lithuania(the actual state), Prussia(even then) or Kazan. There are three distinct cultures within russia: Tatars(Kazan), Slavs(Poland, Russian(belarus ukraine not that diverged yet to realy exist unless you count the cossacks)) and Balts(Lithuania and Prussia).-Lx (leave me a message) 01:05, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Lurk. This whole war that Scotland started made no sense. Norway is not a country, it is part of Sweden soon-to-be Scandinavia. Its navy is moderately large and very capable of taking out pirates that threaten your shipping lanes. Moreover war isnt necessary, you could have : 1 Just asked the country to look into the piracy(how am I even supposed to know they are there, you kinda really just made it up to have somewhat of a casus belli) 2 You could have always asked to just buy the land. The most important part though is the "basis" for the declaration of war.I'm just trying to make sense of it all, i'm sure we can work things out.AP (talk) 06:20, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

The part of founding a third colony 50 years after your first, and the fourth 50 years after the second is still is a rule?And, what is the maximum number of colonies that one can have?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

First of all, if you wanted to let me know about the pirates you should have made it a mod event! I dont read all the posts especially in peacetime, your post was a little one amid huge posts i actually read. Next, you cant control the actions of my government-- you said your pleas "failed" when yyou didnt even use proper diplomacy you just made it happen. Moreover the pirates were completely made up by you, once again YOU posted it-- it wasnt a mod event, something that i read. Basically you made it all up to have a bs casus belli to unfairly take land. That is why that war should be retconned. It's not because i dont like it, if you had a proper casus belli or if you properly used diplomacy to ask if i could rid the lanes of the pirates but i refused, then i would happily accept any result. But no since you own the game everything had to go your way.AP (talk) 22:33, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Why not. You could conquer England and Ireland in 2 turns if you wanted to. Your portrayal of Scandinavia is not very accurate; the economy is doing extremely well, the navy and army are quickly becoming one of the best in Europe yet we lose to little ol Scotland just because it has you as a player. Just because you posted before me doesnt mean it happened before what i posted(the death of Haakon at least). His dad was dying so i'm sure that Erik would have been Regent, giving de facto control to Sweden.Also i get Shetland, but why Faroe? They aare not Scottish in the least and will cause problems. I see that its pointless to get you to retconn it considering you are biased on it and the fact that youre "moderator in chief." So I'll leave it at that hoping you're decent enough to keep your word, although i cannot say for sure that we will reciprocate. AP (talk) 01:37, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Hey. Im assuming it was you who crossed out the colony of new Norway. I will post that in 1509 instead. I did everything in the algorithm is best and unbiased as i could and got that year. Thanks.AP (talk) 00:29, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Neither Scandinavia nor its constituent territories were listed... I did the algorithm be it finalized or not(didnt know that it wasnt, sorry). I just need to know from you, is 1509 ok? I did everything fine and unbiased, like i said. I just need your approval.AP (talk) 01:25, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.AP (talk) 03:28, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Question. Can European nations vassalize non-European African nations? I wanted to do that but i wasnt too sure and i dont wanna have anything retconned... I would do it for example to Morocco or the Oyo people or some coastal African nation so i can have a great naval base and other things.AP (talk) 21:13, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, bro. Sorry about the Gladiator page. I must not have read the rules before I started editing. I was just looking for some way to have Rome survive and convert back into a Republic. If I rename the page and take out the movie references, will you let me keep it up?

Other than that, I'm so glad I found this wiki. I respect all the hard work you guys put into it and I'd really like to help collaborate.

BrawnerWilliam (talk) 19:08, November 4, 2012 (UTC)BrawnerWilliam

November 4, 2012


Thanks for giving me the heads-up before deleting my "Gladiator" page. I'm sorry I didn't follow the guidelines. However, I renamed it "Rome Endures" and got rid of the movie references, so hopefully now it'll meet your criteria. Will you consider leaving it up? I plan to develop the storyline further. Thanks.

I'm so glad I discovered this wiki. I respect what all you guys do and I'd love to be able to contribute.

BrawnerWilliam (talk) 19:27, November 4, 2012 (UTC)BrawnerWilliam

God I'm so sorry about Principia Moderni. I wasn't taking it very seriously. I won't join anymore map games but I'd still like to be part of this wiki. Thanks.

BrawnerWilliam (talk) 01:31, November 5, 2012 (UTC)BrawnerWilliam

PM II MP Question

MP recently gave Austria and her holdings to the current Emperor, does that mean that Bavaria now owns that land? I am a little lost on that, I mean I would gladly take some land, IDK about ALL of it though, that is alot of territory, I mean I would gladly take it. I don't really understand what he said.Andr3w777 (talk) 21:41, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Could you weigh in on this thread please? Scraw seems to think he is strong enough in North America to make the large Iroquois nation his protectorate. I think it is way too early for him to have this sort of leverage in the region. Can you come and make a decision please? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:16, November 13, 2012 (UTC)

PMII Colonisation of Africa

I just read that you can't colonise Africa until 30 years after the date you can colonise the Americas. But that really makes little sense, Africa has been known for centuries, the exploration of Africa is older than the exploration of Antilla and Atlanta. And most Africa is nearest to Europe, plus travel to a place in Africa is easier thanks to outposts in the coast where the ships can replenish, while the travel to Antilla is lacking intermediate stations. I really want you to revise the rules or tell me if I'm wrong. (I'm Milan and Genoa in the game) Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 23:03, November 13, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, sounds reasonable, for now I will work only to obtain islands (the ones who are still without owner) and prepare for the future. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 00:07, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

A couple questions

As grammar corrector extraordinaire with no ideas about gaming, I have two questions:

What does RNG stand for?

What does ASP stans for?

PS I hope no one has quit since I started.

EoGuy (talk) 03:04, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

to try and

Someone keeps changing "to try to" - which is correct - back to "to try and" - which is incorrect.

Well, nonstandard, anyway.

EoGuy (talk) 21:27, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand you think it is plausible for the Russian states to send supplies to a war in India concerning countries they've only known about & had an alliance since this war started (their alliance was formed in 1523 under some very questionable circumstances - meta-gaming & implausibility). Why on Earth would the likes of Muscovy, Poland, Novgorod, Baltica, Pskov, Sibir, Rostov, Ryazan, Moldova, Ruthenia, Luthuania, Polish Prussia, Belarus, Ukraine, Brandenburg, Luxembourg and Aragon even care about the outcome of a war between heretics and pagans in a continent they've hardly visited? Some of these nations don't even have navies! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:46, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

True, only Muscovy, Poland, and Novgorod have serious navies- but they are aginst the Caliphate, and that's all we need. We had a nonaggression treaty, not a friendship pact. Anyway, they have lots of Spices, and that stuff sells for thrones back in Europe (as in, you can buy a throne with some).

The Royal Guns (talk) 01:00, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Okay so this second war sees Hindustan loose 22.22% and in the first war Hindustan lost 12%. This means with these two wars we get 34.22% which is enough to overthrow the Hindustani government right?

Also I thinking that seeing how Burgundy has too many colonies now, I was planning on having them loose their Guinea colony to the Empire of Gabu as Gabu expand to the coastline. Would that be an ample punishment / way to reduce their colonies? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:36, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you cannot add up war scores 20 years apart, or at least that's what I think. So, what is it Lurk? 1.png Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:39, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

So does the Hindustani government get overthrown or not? And is it okay for me to have the Empire of Gabu expand and take over Burgundy's colony as Burgundy's punishment for having too many colonies? I could do with an answer ASAP. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:12, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Lurk. This isnt a complaint or anything but my in game messages havent really been adressed. Burgundy has like 4 colonies. Same with Savoy and Naples(one of which is in the Pacific, which you or someone else said was not possible for europeans right now). Some European nation has a colony in the Philippines. The Savoyard colony in California overlaps with Japan's colony.I'm pretty sure the Burgundian attack on the aztecs was implausible. its probably none of my business, but what's the plan with Kappelianism? I think peaceful resolution with Catholics is implausible, they hate each other atl or otl. That will be the downfall of the HRE. The Caliphate will fall, as planned by their members. --AP

I've announced Bavaria going Kappelist, however the HRE government is threatening war I'd surely lose, do you have any plans, as of yet I am the only oragnised Kappelist State, there is a lot of pressure going on. I've asked Scraw if Bavaria can become independent but I am not hopefully, the only other answer would be war, in which I believe I would be beat as majority of my allies are members of the HRE. Is there something I can do?Andr3w777 (talk) 21:52, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

really? who are they? Also is it reasonable for Bavaria to want to be independent. Should I declare independence, for now I am unsure.Andr3w777 (talk) 22:54, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, questioneering time for PMII: I have one colony as of present. How much do? I get to expand it by every turn? IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.pngRegen Flag.png Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 23:00, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to take you not saying anything as me being allowed to do it. In 1531 Hindustan's government will be overthrown and it'll become subordinate to the Caliphate and Bengal. The Empire of Gabu will also be taking over Burgundy's near-by west Africa colony. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:54, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Lobositz's Lamentable Loss

hey, lurk can you post on the game so that we continue with it please, im sorry if you are busy but i dont want this game to die so... Sine dei gloriem (talk) 21:20, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Hi, i am SneakyDeaky, a friend of Lx on the principia modrni II map game. Apparently you aren't allowed 2 accounts, but I forgot the credentials on my other one until now. Is it possible that you just ignore this one, (SneakyDeaky,) and let me start using my old one? (cedhead) Sorry about any problems this might cause, but I had trouble getting AND finding my old one. Hope this is ok :/. Thanks 4 your time, SneakyDekay

A page I ought to flag.

I was looking through the edits page and hit upon this page as the name seemed odd. I think it should be brought to your attention. Futhermore the editor of this page is a very new user called Creepybacon who's contributions are interesting. David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 10:09, January 4, 2013 (UTC)


Hey, since the Caliphate has fallen, is it possible for me to continue playing Ethiopia? Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 19:46, January 8, 2013 (UTC)

One thing that i thought that i should ask you, as you apparently came up with the idea for the NPC bonus.So, i'm in a war with, my quesion is whether the NPC bonus counts if the nation still has a player, this player haven't posted for a long time, but he hasn't been declared inactive? (the last time we had a situation like this, the NPC bonus wasn't included.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:54, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Hey can you check the moderator page for PM please? We're trying to make a decision but we need your input to the decision making process. I know you're not online much but I did would appricate your input when you're next online.  VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:32, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Night of the Living Alternate History

I invite you to participate in the Night of the Living Alternate History. There are many nations still available, and we should be starting soon. Mscoree (talk) 17:19, March 27, 2013 (UTC)


As much as I would like to help you in your project, I'm going to have to decline. Sorry. -Kogasa Miko THPW2.png Flag of Europe.svg 2013 May 08, 17:25 (CET)

PM2 independent mod check

Hello, okay the latest large war has had its algorithm completed. In my mod position I have locked it and I deem it to be accurate and correct. To ensure there is no bias and the algorithm is correct, I'd like you and the other mods who are neutral in this war to check the algorithm to judge if it's correct. Thank you. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:42, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Revisions to Easternized World

I see you've been revising Easternized World lately. As long as you're making changes, I have a suggestion. Under what circumstances do Czechoslovakia and Romania come into existence? That was never explained, unless I overlooked something.

Pacificus Viridis 21:37, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Emeritus status

Hey, LurkerLord. We've been doing some housekeeping and are moving the names of inactive admins to the Alternative History:TSPTF#Officers Emeriti list. I moved you down there because you have not been very active lately. Whether you see this today or years from now, you're always welcome to move it back if you still are / become active. Thanks, Benkarnell (talk) 23:11, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

Humanity Divided

Greetings LurkerLordB,

I have recently created an article for your approval as administrator of the Humanity Divided alternate history; Pelk. Pelk is a Hobbit island state located close to where Hobbits originated. The article has been written as if the state still exists, though as a primative community, and as if the writer is in the present of the Humanity Divided timeline. At the moment there are no other states mentioned in the project so I decided to give such a start with Pelk as an example. Baron Joshua (talk) 02:17, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

Theravada India

Hello! I am intended to adopt your timeline Theravada India, so I have to ask you whether you will continue it in the near future? Please notice me soon if you have any objection on my intended adoption. FirstStooge (talk) 11:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)