China (and other) stuff again!
Hey Oer. Thank you for responding to my messages! While I still have you on the wiki, I was wondering if you could modify the China articles to reflect what has happened in the area recently. We have had one WCRB report in the area in the past year! For one, the PRC was expanding toward the coast but I have no clue how it did. If it was, then it would most definately encounter Beijing. I just want to see their response lol (and probably a stupid declaration that they will rebuild the city or something XD). Plus, Jiansu has been fairly quiet recently too. By my estimates, they would probably have got more areas under direct control (considering they didn't do what they did before - they helped the influencing communities steadily and not put a great strain on their economy) as well as that piece of land toward their north.
Plus, the Tiwanese must be annoyed with the USSR. Are they chances they would have moved in to take out Nanchung to show the USSR they mean business and will not be threatened by them or something? Considering you have something like almost two years to play around with, maybe this war could have happened over the winter of 2012-2013?
As well as this, Scan has expressed interest in planning a Guanxi-Macau union in late 2013. He would like to talk to you if you are open to the idea in any form.
I would really appreciate your thoughts. I just feel it is time to land on the shores on the Doomsday island from the sea of map games present on the wiki! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:51, September 30, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not in charge of Macau, Nanchung, or Taiwan, and I think Vlad took over the PRC.Oerwinde (talk) 08:02, October 2, 2013 (UTC)
That is a shame. I think the other major player was Arstar, and he too has been offline for quite a while now.
The population of South Africa in terms of whites went up from 3 mil to 4.5 mil in 1960-80 (LG did a bit of reseach to get that figure). So 1.4 mil would go up to 2.1 mil using that scale as a comparison. Now from what I could tell because of some discussion on the AL talkpage, half would run to the OFS (950k ish), quarter would run to Heiligdom (500k ish) and quarter would die (500k). Around 50k would survive or something and live in the League.
For Volkstaat, there might have been people running from the Cape to give you the numbers, or we could just remove around 350-400k from the OFS's migration population to go to Volkstaat - that would only leave 450k heading to the OFS. The areas which Volkstaat covers only makes up 2% of the total population numbers for SA. That gives us 600k already present at the time of DD. What would happen to them?
Since we removed 1/2 of the no of people going to the OFS, how could we make their numbers bigger. We would make that 600k (heading to OFS) by making the number who flee to Heiligdom to 350k. We have 1.9 mil in the 80s, with 400k being white. If we get 600k more, we have 1 mil whites and total pop of 2.5 mil in the late 80. Plugging in violence, we get the total go down to 2.0 mil, with around 40-45% whites. Definately enough to keep a apartheid state going. By 2013, their population could be around 3-3.5 million.
I think the numbers I had for Heiligdom was around 280k, so you can do with that what you will. We need to look at numbers of afrikaaners vs numbers of english too.
Please refrain from undoing my category cleanups (especially including my removal of "Persia"). There is absolutely no need to include every single country category, which is more so because a single category for this region (Arabia) already exists as a macro.
If this continues to be an issue for you, than I'll be more than happy to request a third opinion from LG, but he's made it quite clear on multiple occasions that all those categories aren't necessary. -- NuclearVacuum 05:19, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to apologize for coming off as rude with this. I was on my phone and didn't know how to enter edit reasons and such when I was undoing it. I also didn't realize Persia was an empty category and thought it was a more accurate one than Iran. You're definitely right on all the Arabian countries being redundant with the Arabia category being present.Oerwinde (talk) 07:07, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
China and SA (DD)
So, I hope you are doing alright, its just good to see you after Fed and Tbguy returned in full force lol. Now, I see you are in control of a few China articles, so your opinion matters to me very much. I have been editing the Yunnan page recently and with Yank's approval added stuff to it. Yank has told me he likes my additions, but I would like to hear your opinion on them, if you don't mind lol - you are the China guy. Plus, me and Guns have been in discussion about the future of Gansu - and we want it to fall to the PRC (the poor nation has no future). What do you think about the idea? And by when will the PRC reach the coast?
The second region I want to talk to you about it South Africa. Now I have begun to make the Volkstaat page and add stuff to it too, but I didn't know how well it fitted with context with the rest of South Africa. Would you be able to have a look and tell me? And I was also planning to begin the OFS article's history - but I could not find out who was the leader of the state in 1983 or anything else about it - could you help?
It might be a good idea to read talkpages of the articles too - I have been rambling on there lol. But great to see you back! XD
PS Brain retired completely :'(
- Hey, I was looking at the Yunnan page, when I did the first China map and outlined the initial survivor states, Yunnan was a communist state, so it should have been a communist state up to the date the map was first posted. Yank took over after the map was posted, but as of 2010 it was still communist. Gansu was a hell of a fight to get approved in the first place due to the PRC being right there ready to gobble them up, so I have no problem with it falling to the PRC. As for the PRC reaching the coast, really I don't see why it hasn't yet.
- As for South Africa, Volkstaat I think is ok, but I think there needs to be an explaination as to why Constrand didn't evacuate his brother when he was organizing his initial exodus. Thats my biggest issue. I didn't realize he had an identical twin otherwise I probably would have included something when I first started writing the Volkstaat page.
- Orange Free state I had tried to research as well, but it seems like any info on the Apartheid era provinces is hard to come by. It does seem that OFS is the agricultural and precious metals centre of South Africa, referred to as the Granary of South Africa, and produces 30% of SA's gold output, as well as a large quantity of silver, so they should be pretty self sufficient and pretty rich. I could see them absorbing Heiligdom at some point. Realistically Heiligdom wouldn't be able to survive long-term due to its size and population. At some point, possibly with Volkstaat and Waterboersland influence I would see the Apartheid policies being rolled back somewhat. Maybe giving Coloureds and such equal rights to whites, and giving Blacks their own house of parliament.
- I hope you don't mind I respond here, I like to keep the discussion all in one place. I hate when it goes back and forth between talk pages.Oerwinde (talk) 07:14, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
Why would I mind lol?
Well, I think the thing with Yunnan is that we can just state that the WCRB map makers made the borders through rumours of the region as they were not as well established in the region yet. We can then state the "update" of the map occured when proper information was recieved by the WCRB map makers - the map has no real time value in Doomsday. All the changes which have been made has been due to what Yank foresaw for the nation. I initially questioned him about the plans he had for Yunnan - and he told me he had only written upto 2002 and that he wanted democracy to come about as he said that Fu was going to die quite soon. I was with the idea and did as Yank thought was suitable. He told me he likes my additions to the article, lol.
Ah, Gansu! It was a tough fight - but me and Guns have come to the conclusion that the nation sadly does not have a future. It most definately cannot fight the PRC and win and its quite poor due to low development of the economy and infrastructure. Therefore, the question me and Guns were faced with was which way should Gansu fall - Siberia or PRC? In the end PRC was decided, so we plan to let Gansu become a part of the PRC. But how shall we go about this? Should there be a pro-PRC/Communist coup or would the PRC just invade? And the reason I think it hasn't expanded to the coast is because no one has written about it reaching the coast lol.
He did have a twin, lol. He was an anti-apartheid activist who had a great deal of respect within the ANC. Well, the problem with Braam (Abraham) was that it was unsure where he was at the time. For instance, in 1987 he went to Senegal - but what was he doing before it? Things that I have read indicate he was probably somewhere within the ANC heartlands as he was a anti-apartheid activist. So most probably his brother didn't have a clue where he was and as violence gripped the nation - he could only expect the worst. But I think Braam would have quite a bit of respect in the regions he was at and so would have probably been able to survive with the help of a few friends. Then news could get to him his brother had established a state in the west and he could then get together people who were wanting to get out of chaos and head west (mostly whites) and then lead them there.
Yea, with the Orange Free State is quite tricky to research. I can't even find the leaders of the state! I did have an idea that the OFS was quite rich as LG did mention they had a lot of resources in their state at their disposal with the industry to use it. I was surprised by the fact that Heiligdom wasn't absorbed by them already, considering they both have the same ideology and the types of people (although the % of whites in Heiligdom would be 90+, compared to the 45 in the OFS). I think this could serve as a good modern event, which we could write about in the WCRB Newshour. It would be very interesting too, as it would be quite an important event occuring.
Tbh, LG was stating something else about Waterboersland and how it isn't as free as I initially thought. To quote him:
|“||Waterboersland, white-control. Similar population specs to the OFS. Really, it shouldn't be in the NUSA at all - Arstar just randomly declared that, despite logic.
The OFS could remain the way it currently is. The population is much more in their favor now, and international pressure remote at most. Basically, none of the factors that caused SA to do it otl would be the case here.
—-LG 18 Oct, 2013
He gave me the examples of the types of parties running the nation - and that left me really confused as I have seen you and Arstar say one thing and LG something else entirely. From what I got from him, the OFS is kinda divided into three classes. The top, white ruling class; the middle mixed and Indian class; the lowest class made up of blacks. To show what LG said about the founding of the nations, I'll quote him:
|“||The original intent of Watersboerland was something more like the OFS, imo. Arstar just ignored despite things. There's even indications elsewhere that it's like that.
As for why they have not joined with the OFS, combination of different policies and different regimes. Politically, think of it as being akin to the OFS founders being the conservative members of the National Party, Waters~ being founded by members of the New Republic Party, Volk~ founded by those in the Progressive Federal Party, and both the Cape regime and Hell~ founded by members of the Herstigte Nasionale Party.
Basically, the regime in the OFS is full-on racist, while Watersboerland is only partly so. The rest are either far worse, or much more reasonable.
—-LG 24 Oct, 2013
So what is really the case? As I would be willing to support your view of Waterboersland and how the two states could help tone done the apartheid - it would actually make the OFS a bit more respectable. And, as a last thing, where does Kimberly fall - OFS or Waterboersland?
Moving onto New Britain - and I am very confused. The nation has made moves which don't really seem to make sense - such as the invasion of the OFS. Plus, when New Britain invaded the Cape in support of the international expiditionary force, I would have thought they would have kept their territories they gained? To see what I mean and a map too, see this on LG's talkpage. It should explain stuff better than me lol.
- Yunnan: The Borders don't bother me, but as of 2010, outwardly it was a communist state. It may have been in the middle of a civil war, but the government of the time was communist. I don't mind the additions, its just the timeline. If you push Fu's death up to say 2007, with the Generals able to keep a semblance of order till about 2008-2009, civil war erupts, and the communist regime falls say late 2010, that would satisfy me.
- Gansu: PRC will take it. Siberia has no problem gobbling up aggressor states, but it doesn't want to look aggressive, so it wouldn't actively try to take Gansu unless it attacked them, which it wouldn't PRC wants to reclaim China. I say go with propaganda campaigns weakening the already weak state, with a little bit of Communist coup and PRC "Police Action"
- Braam Viljoen from what I gather lived in Pretoria and did most of his work there. Constrand would have known where he is and would have gotten him out if he was willing. So I say he tried to stay to mediate the conflict and ended up in the concentration camps in Heiligdom. Experience would have probably changed his views a bit and had him on board Constrand's goals for a Volkstaat.
- Waterboersland was intended to be a Griqua state, but with the majority of the Griqua in New Britain, I doubt that would be the case. Many of the English speaking refugees from the east settled there and without soldiers there is no way they could take it over and make it into a racist state. More likely its an English speaking mixed race nation, likely on good terms with New Britain and Volkstaat. Before Arstar got ahold of it the only info on it was it was part of the New Union of South Africa. IMO I think the New Union should dissolve. The way South Africa has developed, its outdated and doesn't really serve a purpose.
- OFS: With no port, OFS would need good relations neighbours in order to access one. A trade link between it and Volkstaat through Waterboersland would be the most likely, and if Braam Viljoen is going to be involved in Volkstaat's government, he isn't going to want to deal with OFS as is. So either Braam can't be a major force in the government, or OFS will need to tone down a bit. I'm not saying universal suffrage, but getting the Coloureds and Indians on board with the whites, plus appeasing the blacks somewhat would probably be enough, especially if you have Braam go through the concentration camps in Heiligdom. As for Kimberly, its in Waterboersland. OFS until recently only had its OTL borders, and Waterboersland was right next to it. Kimberly is in Northern Cape, so it would be on Waterboersland's side of the border.
- As for founding political parties, Heiligdom wasn't really founded by any established party, it was established by a rough organization of escaped concentration camp prisoners. They were more worried about their own security than political affiliation. Volkstaat is going to be Constrand's personal vision at first, but can be shaped by parties later, Waterboersland has literally no information other than a name, flag, and borders, and that it got an influx of english whites.
- With New Britain, I think for the most part, they don't want to look like foreign invaders. So taking lawless territory not in anyone's sphere of control is one thing, conquering neighboring territory is another. Returning territory to the Cape would be a good diplomatic move, makes them look like good neighbors. Oerwinde (talk) 05:34, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I'll talk to Yank about it, but could we not like just change one thing [move the 2010 date back] to give the Yunnan article more legimacy?
Ok, the events with Gansu make sense. I will add to the article about how the elections went badly for the "good" parties and the new party opened the state up to the PRC to earm more money and invest it into the economy. Its pretty much Yunnan reversed lol - literally. I'm thinking 14th February as the union of the states - with the PRC sending a "police force" around November - so we can call it the "Valentine Union" lol. Btw, would I be allowed to add the stuff to the PRC article if you don't have time and possibly make the WCRB newshour headings which state that the PRC reached the coast and absorbed Gansu and stuff?
Yea, I agree about Braam. The events make sense and would allow for a more realistic character and background story.
Ok. But I would think more than a half a million whites would have gone to the state or something? Or perhaps more like 300,000? I'm not too sure about the numbers - but a mixed population would be good because it would work very nicely for the nation. It would also be ironic as it would be a new Griqua peoples lol. And Volkstaat has absolutely no problems with the mixed race people - especially after Braam arrives so I guess it would be pretty easy for them to get along - more easier than what I have in the article (which I will soon change). I guess I would agree with the fact they would have good (probably great) relations with the New Brits, cause of their origins.
NEW UNION SHOULD DISSOLVE? Well I am not too great a fan of that idea lol. But from what I can see, the nations would by now find out that New Britain isn't an evil nation hell-bent in taking them over. So if this could lead to the nations deciding to pursue talks with New Britain and joining the AEC after dissolving NUSA (which I would think would be all the states apart from Lesotho - which would probably join the Azanian League), then I could possibly put my vote behind the idea. It would help form a very large economic bloc which would benefit everyone - and speed up the pace with which they take out warlords and stuff. It could easily lead to roads being built between all the nations and all of them being able to benefit from each other.
Braam will be a major force, so the OFS will have to change. However, I think that this should take a while so that we don't have it causing problems with the history. This could be like a mid to late 00s thing. I completely agree with what you are saying - plus it would not take much to appease the blacks, their lives have been (for the lack of a better word) shit so far. Plus, if you think my AEC idea could work, then that would be even better as they would be able to give them some real geopolitical opposition.
I think all this info discussed with you will help shape Waterboersland to be a very interesting nation. That would also mean that Kimberly would be capital of the nation hands down. LG said the nation would have around 400,000 people - would that be accurate? I felt it would be slightly higher - but not too high as it is meant to be a bit of a back player. And could the flag be changed - I got a really cool idea for the flag (kinda like South Ireland's flag when it was in the UK). For Heiligdom it makes sense. So what date will they be absorbed into the OFS - 2010? 2011? Volkstaat would most definately begin to change after the elections of 1999. I think 1994 would be the start of a proper, interim government.
Ok. So New Britain would return the territory to look like a good neighbour - I see. But I still think they should keep some of it - not all, but some (they could easily state warlords could have otherwise sprung up in the area - like they did in the rest of former Cape territory before the LoN coalition fought them off). And would New Britain up the ante in expansion to try to get a border with Botswana? I am currently in discussion with Vegas about the nation and how it should not abandon the former capital but turn it more like into a vassal/territory of the nation. And just as a sidenote, would Botswana expand into Tswana regions just south of their OTL borders - or would all the Tswana refugees move to the former capital and cause the problems in the first place?
And just a heads up - me, Guns and Fed are all planning a large conflict in central Africa. Plus Fed regards you as the best map-gamer on the wiki (I'm pretty jelly).
- Yunnan: Re-reading the article, the timeline as is doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. There's no way the generals could have ruined the country as fast as they did. You can keep Fu's death in 2004, and just push the civil war back to open conflict in 2008, 4 years is enough time for sentiments to fester and rebels to arm. Then a 2 year civil war resulting in the fall of the communist regime in late 2010 (map and summaries of nations was posted in February I believe, so early summer is fine for the change). Essentially this just means changing some dates in the article, but keeping the rest as-is.
- Gansu: I say have the communists win the election by a hair, resulting in unrest from the more free market oriented. Think Egypt OTL. The communists then ask for aid from the PRC, which gives the PRC the opening they need to move in legally. After a few months they start maneuvering their own people into positions of power, the opposition parties are outlawed, and the Gansu government formally hands over control to the PRC sometime next year. You can't move too fast otherwise its not plausible.The PRC needs time to put their troops into place and get puppet officials in positions of power. You can go ahead and do the news items regarding the election and unrest though. When is the election? Because the riots you would start probably that night, and the next day, followed by fighting between communist and capitalist supporters. Troops start moving in after local police are ineffective. Lets say you have pretty serious unrest in the capital spilling out into the surrounding population centers after 2 weeks or so. About a month after the election government troops are unable to handle it and they send to the PRC for aid. It takes time to respond and mobilize troops so probably a week after that you see the first PRC troops enter Gansu. Have most of the unrest quashed about 2 months after that and the PRC stays to help "rebuild and maintain security" So we're looking at the end of the unrest about 3 1/2 months after the election. Which if the election is in February, would put us in nearly July. That means the PRC has 7 months to put their people in place, crack down on any other rebel leaders, and such, before they formally take control for Feb 14 of next year.
- Viljoen didn't take all the whites, he took what he could organize in the timeframe he had as well as how many he could supply before securing more supplies and transport became impossible. Most of the whites that managed to escape otherwise mostly fled to OFS, where the government likely recruited a good many into the military in order to suppress black uprisings. The life of relative comfort and luxury they would have had there likely kept most from heading to Waterboersland.
- Also, looking at the Volkstaat page, why are the people dropped off in Calvinia now? I had them stay in Prieska because they didn't have the nationalism for a Afrikanner state, being ethnically English. Who changed that without asking?
- As for the New Union dissolving, I hadn't read the article recently. When I wrote the Azanian League article the New Union was a union of White/Afrikanner ruled nations that arose in opposition to the Azanian League. New Britain formed the AEC as an alternative to the NUSA because they didn't agree with the politics of the OFS and such. With Waterboersland and Volkstaat not being white supremecist and the Republic of the Cape falling to the SAC/ANZC, that basically left it as an organization that included OFS and German Southwest Africa, which was pointless, hence wanting it to dissolve. I see now that its been heavily reworked, but in its current form, I don't see Volkstaat being a member. The whole point of the Volkstaat was as a homeland/nation for Boers/Afrikanners, joining a union with black nations that heavily outpopulate it and allowing this union to represent it internationally would be abhorrent to them.
- With OFS moderating yes I wouldn't alter history. Have the changes start and go gradually. Any black appeasement probably won't surface for 2 years or more.
- Waterboersland: 400,000 is probably fine for population, I haven't looked at what the population is OTL, but I don't think its very high. You don't want it to be too white anyway, as it was supposed to be a Griqua state. So it should be mostly controlled by Colored people. As for Kimberly being the capitol, no. I believe Griquatown is the established capitol. Kimberly is too close to the border to make it the capitol. You want a more centralized location. The most populous city isn't necessarily the best choice as a capitol. Brazil, Nigeria, Canada, and Australia actually built new capitols from scratch because of the needs of government, strategic location, etc. If Waterboersland is going to be a modern Griqua state, then Griquatown would be a historic and strategic choice. Kimberly would likely be the economic hub of the country though. As for the flag, I have no problem changing it, but it has to be something recent. The established flag has been part of canon for a long time.
- New Britain: The borders are what they are. Its part of canon, At all possible if you find issues with canon its better to find ways to justify it rather than change it. If it can't be justified thats when you bring it to review. NB giving back the territory can be justified, so it shouldn't be changed. As for seeking a border with Botswana? Why? They have already expanded quite a bit, and the investment in infrastructure in acquired territory already has got to be straining them. If anything I could see Waterboersland, New Britain, and Volkstaat getting together to negotiate officially recognized borders, and you would probably see Volkstaat and Waterboersland sharing a border once negotiations are done. Probably similar to this (used rivers as natural borders):
- These borders would simply be the legally recognized borders between the three nations, as such would likely become the recognized borders internationally. The territory wouldn't necessarily be controlled by the nations, but each nations legal rights to ownership of the territory would be recognized.
- Also, with Volkstaat taking more and more territory, their black population is going to increase. As they are founded as a Afrikaner state, the constitution is going to have to entrench Afrikaner rights. I see you're getting to the point of democratizing it in its history, so I'm guessing a Constitution is coming. Maybe requiring constitutionally that at least 50% of the seats in the national assembly must be held by Afrikaner representatives. That way the Black/Coloured population wouldn't be under the thumb of the Afrikaners, but at the same time, a black majority wouldn't be a death sentence to Volkstaat as an Afrikaner state. Canada proposed something similar in the 90s in regards to Quebec, giving it 25% of the seats in Parliament regardless of population in order to protect its interests in the face of increasing demographics in English-speaking provinces. Black voters would still complain they were under-represented, but it likely wouldn't be enough to cause too much outcry.
- As for Fed thinking I'm the best Map Gamer, that's flattering, especially since I quit map gaming after everyone started claiming countries that no one else could use and stopped posting actual maps.Oerwinde (talk) 10:42, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well Yank does not have much problem with your suggestion - so I will edit the article as per your suggestion.
Well, I was referring to May, 2013 - when they were meant to have the election as I made a WCRB Newshour thing where they incorporated new territories before the elections so the ruling party could gain a bit more support. But obviously it will not work. I was planning on them having the time from the election in May to Feb 14, 2014 lol. So what I had in mind would not give them 7 months, but 9. Your point make sense but you misunderstood my dates lol.
Oh, I see. So most of the whites would just help to keep the regime in the OFS going - like those who migrated to the state? And so that is why Waterboersland has the amount of people it does? Hmm.
Well, when I found the article - it said Calvinia - so i just worked with Calvinia and incorporated it into the article's history. I'm not sure who changed it, sorry. Should I change it back then?
I am not too sure about that part. Volkstaat has changed. Being represented by and actually being a part of are two different things - they aren't truely united with the Zulu state. They are just working together with them on an economic and geopolitical basis as it benefits them. Eventually they will be able to make the Zulu the manpower in terms of military forces. while all the weapons makinf would take place in Volkstaat and stuff while Zulu industry develops. However, the more I think about it, the better the idea that most of NUSA (especially Volkstaat, Waterboersland and GSWA) join the AEC, which in turn begins to become closer and helps to form a more united bloc in South Africa.
Yea, it makes sense of the OFS changes to start only now.
Ok, I am fine with Griqua Town being the capital. But can they atleast change the name lol? And would the whites intermarried with the blacks, thus giving us the new mixed race generation? I would think this generation at most would be something like 25 years old - so not too old, but they could already make up a significant % of the population already. Well, I was thinking the St Patrik's Saltire for the new flag - to show their English background. But I am not sure if you would approve lol.
Hmm. The only problem I have with the map is the fact that Waterboersland does not have the people to take that much land - so perhaps Volkstaat gets slightly less land and Waterboersland loses a bit more land? That is the only real problem I have with the map, however. Ok, so we keep New Britain the way it is. But New Britain has the population and resources to expand on the newly aquired infrastructure quicker than most other nations in the region can.
The region where Volkstaat is situated is populated by around 87% mixed peoples in OTL. Therefore the amount of mixed race people would increase, while the amount of blacks not much so. Yea, I am getting to it lol. I would agree that 50% representation would be good - but that would probably be less for the whites than blacks and mixed race peoples. But your logic does make sense, even if it will probably not get to a point where there are less whites than blacks. Yea, the voters may do that, but I don't expect them to get much support at all really.
- That would actually give them 4 months. Since the 7 months I gave them was from 3 months after the elections, and the elections are 3 months later than I thought. Probably still doable.
- Yeah, the way I see it, the whites in the east were split 3 ways. Viljoen's trek, OFS refugees, Heiligdom's concentration camps, and dead. With the OFS refugees and Viljoen's trek composed of about 60% of them, Heiligdom about 20%, and 20% dead, I think. I would need to go back and check my numbers.
- Yeah, I would change it back. I looked and it looks like it was LG that changed it under the heading of "minor fix" which I probably assumed was some spelling/grammar fixes and didn't bother checking it.
- And what I mean when I say I don't think Volkstaat would want to be represented by the NUSA is Kwazulu has a population of over 9 million, Lesotho has a population of over 2 million. German Southwest Africa, Waterboersland, and Volkstaat have a combined population of around 1.4 million, probably around 45% of which is white. Volkstaat has not quite 700,000, about 400,000 of which is white. Their national identity is tied to being Afrikaner. If the NUSA is representing them, there would have to be some sort of elected body, which would heavily favor the 11.5 million or so blacks over the 600,000 or so whites. Basically, its not in their national interests to be represented by the NUSA. They could have observer status and be part of the economic zone, but they wouldn't be represented by the NUSA. What you could do, is have them join early on, but be so marginalised by Lesotho and KwaZulu that they pull out in favor of the AEC, which leads to the eventual collapse of the NUSA and integration into the AEC which, aided by New Britain's honorable dealings with the Cape and such *wink wink* has grown in reputation.
- I'm actually thinking it might be a good idea to have Braam Viljoen have a hand in the foundation of Waterboersland. Maybe after his escape from Heiligdom he could eventually settle in Griquatown for a while, and his influence leads to more blacks and whites seeing eye to eye and setting up the next generation. We could use the Afrikaans name of the town, which is Griekwastad, maybe the english Griquas could use an anglicised version like Griquastad. Also, looking at the pop numbers, I'm thinking the idea of english Griquas being the major identity there is probably far fetched. Something like 30% of the population would be black, and before the english settlers, the majority population would be coloured anyway.
- I tried to make it clear that the land division in the map isn't controlled territory, its legally recognized territory. Much like how half of Pakistan OTL isn't controlled by the government, but is recognized as part of Pakistan by the majority of the world. So yeah, Waterboersland and Volkstaat may gain more territory, but New Britain would be able to utilize theirs a lot better. I could take another look at it and make some concessions though. The territory in the north of the map though doesn't make sense for anyone but Waterboersland to get.
- There could be a major campaign in Volkstaat to push Coloureds to adopt an Afrikaner identity, at least the ones who are half or more White. That would also help the demographic problem.
- Hehe, I know you post maps, but in my day there was a new map every turn! Oerwinde (talk) 01:18, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
To be honest, I will move the elections back - Gansu was a small state anyway - with information coming from the state unreliable. I want to make this as plausible as I can so I think we will hold the election on March 26, 2013. This gives you around 6 months instead of 4 (closer to he 7 which you would be comfortable with). This would make it slightly easier to carry out. Although I you want, we could have the unification on the 23rd (or 26th) of March instead - if that means we get more time to make it plausible, then so be it.
Yea, that is definately the numbers I have heard you mention before. It makes sense for the numbers to be like so anyway. Ah, so LG changed it accidentally? No problem, I will make sure to change it. That should work nicely. Actually, the number of whites in Volkstaat would be 550k, with a large mixed race population while only around 50k blacks. And I would have expected the mixed race embrace of the Afrikaner identity to have occured in the 90s itself. From what I can tell, Constand would have made sure this would have happened. GSWA will be seeing a growing mixed race while more Germans from Germany arrive (and possibly Dutch survivors). Its % of German whites compared to the whole population is around 37%, while total whites is around 49%. I require a favour for the GSWA - could you tell me where a few survivor towns with around 10,000 people each would be situated please? I need the information to add to the page and make it better as well as supply it with the people for the expanshion phases.
I would not think it would be 45%, its more like 70-75%. But I see your point about the nations feeling under-represented. The point is, KwaZulu could not margalise them much, becuase they would need Volkstaat and the other two to develop their economy and armed forces. Although, the idea could work for Volkstaat and GSWA and probably Waterboersland, who would all feel the two black dominated states would marginalise them. Then they join the AEC instead while moving away from NUSA, joining the New Britain dominated league. In the 14 million or so in the AEC, the amount of whites would be much closer to half, while the mixed race population would be booming. Thus all the states in it could feel safer. I think that KwaZulu would also join and relations with the other NUSA members would be favourable, but New Britain would be able to do a better job representing white interests. I could see KwaXhosa and KwaZulu become closer in the AEC and become main trading partners while the other nations move closer together (namely the GWSA, NB, Waterboersland, Volkstaat, RZA). So although the black and white states would co-operate with each other, each would prefer certain states. So when does the whole disbanding thing start? Right after the joint currency when the western states begin to feel more sidelined and thus
Well, if you can make the Braam thing in Waterboersland work - then I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Actually, I don't think it is far-fetched. The arrival of the English whites would not only boost the population but also significantly shift the demographics. I don't think the majority of mixed would be very great - probably around 50% of the total pop of Waterboersland.
No, I agree that Waterboersland should get the northern territory, but the slightly more southern ones should be going more towards the NB. And New Britain would definately utilise theirs the best to be honest. Btw, would NB ever launch more ships to get more Brits from the British Isles to come and settle in NB? It would be good to see that happen.
- Gansu: Thats fine, I think with PRC's organization and strength, the 4 month window might be doable, but 6 is definitely better. As for changing the unification date, I like the idea of the Valentine Union, so we can keep it in February.
- Volkstaat's population is currently at around 690k, with the initial exodus of whites numbering around 400,000, losing around 20-30,000 to Waterboersland, plus I would think 30-50,000 simply during the trek to sickness, succumbing to injury, starvation, and raids, you have something like a maximum of 350,000 beginning the establishment of Volkstaat. Say lose 10-20k in the fighting to establish the state, you have an initial white population of around 300,000-340,000. You won't see much growth in the early years because there won't be the supplies and such for any sort of population boom, but maybe around the 90s you could see incentives for Afrikaner families to expand from the government, Add Braam's trekboers and maybe a small influx from RZA, and I can't really see the white population being more than 450,000, which is still a majority, but I can't see 550k out of 690k being a reasonable number.
- GSWA: I don't see many Germans coming here. By the time in the article where word of its existance is hitting Germany, you have North Germany pretty firmly established, as well as Prussia, and thats pretty much the entire coast of Germany covered. You might get a few, but I can't see much more than 10k German immigrants over the next 10 years or so. What you could do is add the bit I thought up, of ship captains in the 80s and early 90s spreading the word of a GSWA and taking advantage of the plight of people in Germany. Taking everything they have and dropping them off penniless in Walvis bay or along the coast. You couldn't have this happening for more than 5-10 years and would likely result in an increase in the German population of only about 10-20k before North Germany and Prussia stablized it enough that people didn't see the risk as worth it, plus word of what was really happening reached Germany. As for survivor towns in GSWA, Namibia is really sparsely populated. OTL it only has 2 million people, about 350k of which live in Windhoek, most of the rest are black and live in the north. Rehoboth is aroubt 90km south of Windhoek and is essentially the home of the Baster people (Children of african women and dutch colonists and their descendants), currently OTL has around 30,000 people, mostly Baster. I think the Basters have a pretty even blend of African and Dutch culture, and speak Afrikaans, so they might be a potential friend to the whites in GSWA. Okhandja had a population of around 14k as of 2001, and is just north of Windhoek. Mostly a black town. Pretty much all the other populated areas are outside of GSWA's zone of control besides Swakopmund and Walvis Bay.
- With the % of whites in GSWA/VS/WBL, WBL is going to drag down the percentage, because their population of whites is going to be maybe 20-25%. Likely ethnic makeup of WBL will be around 50-60% mixed, 25-30% black, and 20-25% white. Like 90% of its white population will be the English that left Constrand's group, and whatever of Braam's group decides to stay. I can't imagine more than 15-20k being part of Braam's group, if that many, and 10k of those moved on to Volkstaat, so that gives an initial white population of around 35k. Account for growth and you're probably looking at a modern population of 40-45k. which is actually more like 10% of the population. So while Volkstaat has a majority population of whites, and GSWA is about half white, factoring in Waterboersland is going to drag that % down. So 70-75% white isn't a realistic number. Quick calculation using pop stats gives a % of whites being about 45% (216k in GSWA, 450k in VS, and 45k in WBL, vs total population of around 1.6 million). If OFS was a member the numbers would be more in favor, as they had an initial white population of around 260k, add around 960k in refugees leaving about 1.2 million whites by the late 80s. You would probably see a population around 1.8 million whites by modern day there, which would be probably about 70% of their population. Add the 300k or so in Heiligdom and you might get the numbers up to 60% or so.
- Braam in WBL: He wouldn't need to stay long. The people he has with him are likely a mix of Afrkaner nationalists seeking Volkstaat, and moderates from OFS who would rather live in a country that treats blacks/coloureds more equally. So the nationalists would keep going, while the moderates would stay. He might stay, speak in a few places, preach moderate policies, influencing some locals, before moving on. I could see him staying maybe a year.
- Is this better? The NB gets almost twice as much as the last picture, but I don't find the borders as aesthetically pleasing. As for NB launching immigrant ships, not likely. They already get bit of immigration from the isles, but the situation there is improving and if there was a need for more ships, private enterprise probably will have already filled that role.Oerwinde (talk) 20:53, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry about chat. I left the chat window open and only saw your message this morning. I was kicking myself this morning because there would have been you, Fed, Yank, me and Guns and we all could have dominated chat by talking about Doomsday! I hope we could try that today lol.
Let's keep it at 6 then. I think it would work better too. Yea, the Valentine's Union was just a random thought that popped into my head, but it sounded good.
Ah. Only 450k? Well I did hope we could hopefully make the number larger but oh well, I will be fine with the number as it is still a majority number - around 65%. I think the government would try to get the blacks to adopt the same ideals as the whites when they try to promote feelings of the Afrikanner. It is kinda like what Australia is doing in OTL. This could help maintain control over the nation while making it easy for the democratic government to work toward one goal. And what do you think the size of the army should be? Would 8-10k be
Actually, I think it would be a perfect regions for the Germans to settle. Just looking at the German map, there is hundreds of sq miles of radiated lands which will most probably never be settled in human lifetime. Although I like the idea of ship-captains doing so - there would be plenty Germans willing to leave Germany for warmer lands where the sun shines and there is no mention of a nuclear zone. I think it would appeal to most people and it would continue to gather interest within Germany - especially when the ships beginning to arrive are not of merchant shippers but those flying the GSWA Flag. And it would most definately have to be more than 10-20k people, otherwise word would not spread to Germany for another decade. I would most definately think Rehoboth would be incorporated into GSWA - they would most definately treated kindly and be given seats in the Parliament.
It also talks about a possible Nordic German and GSWA Union - therefore both know about each other and are on friendly relations. I would most definately think a lot of people would want to get out of Germany - cold - and move to a warmer region. One aspect I haven't explored is the potential amount of trading between the nations. GSWA has all the raw resources which the Nordic Germans would need, while the GSWA could complain of manpower shortage and this would encourage the NG to send people to help work the mines and factories while also sending them refined materials to building better and larger buildings while also tech such as bulldozers and such. Not only would this keep a steady steam of Germans incoming into the nation (10-20k per annum) but also give both nations a chance to develop quicker and build greater connections. However, I would think both nations would need a stopover somewhere in Africa - could we look into an outpost on the coast of some unorganised territory which could initially be used as a base by merchant shippers tricking the Germans but eventually be taken over by a combination of GWSA-NG troops. Please tell me we can make this work - I really like this idea!
Actually, OFS is around 2-2.1 mil and the total population is actually 3.5 million - with a lot of blacks and a significant amount of mixed race peoples as well as Indians. So the OFS isn't a great help in the % either. However, it is still a huge help in the total white population. I agree with the Braam thing, although it does confuse me a bit lol. When did we decide on the unification date of Heiligdom and the OFS? I think it would be good for it to occur early this year all things considered. Perhaps we could go for 17th January (no reason whatsoever lol) of 2014 and that would allow us to write out whatever is happening with the nation now.
So does private enterprising spring up? And it does seem to be a good map. I have another slightly altered version. However, it would see Volkstaat lose a bit of land - but tbh as you said they don't really control is as well as NB, so as long as NB gave them money I think they would agree. And 3.5 million was what we had agreed for NB previously in terms of population, correct? :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:48, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
- While Volkstaat would likely try to get blacks to adopt Afrikaner values, I doubt it will be all that successful in any sort of cultural conversion. Coloureds at least would have some Dutch heritage they could appeal to. I think the Volkstaat army would be rather large for its population. Viljoen was a military leader, and would likely want to ensure the safety and stability of his nation. Maybe 10-15k, or 10k but with a national police force.
- I think you have a misunderstanding of Namibia. It isn't a pleasant place. Its mostly harsh desert and arid scrubland. Its main minable resource is diamonds, which would be pretty worthless ATL. While there could be some immigration from Germany, especially early on, its not going to be a place that gets a lot of immigration now. As for materials, North Germany would be a really expensive place to get materials from, especially with the West African Union right there. While GSWA and North Germany would likely have close diplomatic ties, I would think they would be much more economically tied to the South African nations and the WAU.
- Did OFS put some sort of family size incentives into place for whites to get a population that size? I got my initial 260k whites in 1983 from getting a total pop of 2 million in 1983, and applying the 13% white figure of apartheid OFS. Your number of whites in the Praetoria/Johannesburg area was around 2.1 million, with 500k dying, 400k going to Volkstaat, and 280k in Heiligdom, it left around 960k in refugees to OFS. 960k+260k = approx 1.2 million whites in the late 80s, assuming losses from keeping the black population suppressed. So to get 2.1 million whites by now thats an increase of 900k, or almost double the population. White people aren't very notorious breeders so there would have to be some sort of population controls in place to have that rate of growth. Also, one thing we haven't discussed with OFS, Bantustans. OFS is still an Apartheid state, so we need to do some research into where the Bantustans would be, their populations, etc. These would affect OFS' demographics as well.
- Heiligdom I think we could announce that discussions are underway for joining OFS as of January. Heiligdom is only 45% white or so, and blacks aren't as oppressed as they are in OFS, Blacks get a vote, but white votes are counted double. So this would cause a lot of unrest in Heiligdom. We could have foreign affairs and military integration by Aug-Nov of this year, and full integration by Jan-Apr of next year.
- I don't see why Volkstaat would give up territory, or why NB would want it. NB has no claim to it, and that area would be mostly Afrikaans speaking, so would generally prefer to be part of Volkstaat than NB for cultural reasons. Unclaimed territory is fair game for NB, but I doubt they would go for any land that's already established as part of a nation, and that part has been Volkstaat land since pretty early too. Oerwinde (talk) 23:05, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
83DD China & SA Continued
I'm splitting this so its easier to edit and keep track Oerwinde (talk) 09:40, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. They could be more successful than you think. They did give them the vote - an equal vote - and they are living in Volkstaat, so it could be easier than presumed at the start. This applies especially with the children who are going to school. Coloureds would no doubt embrace it very quickly. Wow, that is a good deal larger than what I had in mind. Are we talking active soldiers? Because I had 40,000 reservists too - which I thought could help with the policing. Unless we have 10k active troops and 5k being so-called "territorial" or "regional", who will not be partaking in an invasion for example, but would police the streets and would be part of a war on Volkstaat territory (they are a step up from reservists but a step down from active soldiers).
True, but it is most definately better than OTL. Diamonds, and tourism. Now diamonds would still be worth something - just not nearly as much. Tourism would also exist, but not in such a large manner. But as the world economy improves, the worth of the diamonds begins to increase once more. Plus, the agricultural industry is half the size of the diamonds industry and although it would be mostly in the north - it will grow in the south as the nation expands along the seasonal rivers and the permanent river which makes its border with former South Africa. Now manufacturing is the biggest sector of the economy. Although a lot of the factories and stuff were destroyed, an initial advantage of NUSA would have been the rebirth of industry. The extra workers would also help grow industry in GSWA. And the best thing is that it is much warmer than Germany - tourism will certainly be on an upward trend lol.
The OFS would most definately do that. They are completely willing to take resources from the blacks (LG agreed on the fact) and although whites are not, Afrikaners and Boers certainly were. I would think they would put in place population incentives and increase their own numbers while letting black numbers stagnate and decrease. Bantustans would have quite a few leave. I think there were some Tswana Bantustans in OFS territory - and as we know most of them left.
Yea, we could do that with the OFS and Heiligdom. The chain of events is logical and I think we can do that.
Ok. Then your map is good (the second one). I think all the nations can live with odd borders lol.
I also have an alternate map for the China map. The map is meant to show the situation in Apr 2013. I will upload another map to show what I think it will look like in March 2014. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:07, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
- I think I may be off on army numbers, yours are probably better. I'm thinking Volkstaat would have compulsory military service as well though. Whites from its foundation, followed by Coloureds a while after, then Blacks would be included as part of a "unity exercise". Maybe a few years after Blacks are brought into the military they would be brought into the compulsory service as well, to "promote brotherhood". Would be similar to other countries, Probably 2 years of service at 18, with a weekend of refresher exercises every 6 months after discharge kinda thing. That way you can just not bother with reservists, since most of the population would be invasion ready.
- I think we're looking at Volkstaat's economy with too much optimism. They're essentially establishing industry from nothing. They are refugees mostly, the first few years is mostly going to be heavily construction, but most of that is going to be homes for everyone. They are going to need to get supplies for building, I'm thinking we're going to see a lot of stone and brick buildings due to lack of access to wood. Lots of subsistence agriculture until basic resource industries are up and running. We're not going to see a full industrialized economy until at least the late 90s or early 2000s. Early years are going to be hard to feed everyone.
- GSWA's main problem is going to be food as well. Outside the Orange, Cunene, and Okavango rivers, most of Namibia's rivers can't support irrigation, as they are either seasonal, or ephemeral. Most of Namibia's OTL agricultural land is in the north where the Okavango and Cunene form part of the border with Angola. The Orange forms part of the border with former SA. With GSWA being composed of mostly central Namibia, this is going to cause issues. Increased rainfall might cause the seasonal rivers to exist as a trickle during dry seasons and the ephemeral rivers might become seasonal, but this is still not going to be enough for irrigation. So GSWA needs to secure both water and food before they can even think of having industry.
- Bantustans in OFS OTL I believe was Qwa Qwa, which I believe was a Southern Sotho Bantustan on the border with Lesotho, that would likely still exist, and an exclave of Bophuthatswana (Tswana) that encompassed a single village. This one could likely be expanded, but I think the land around where it was would be valuable farmland.
- I did an updated map for China, see how it compares to yours and if anything should be incorporated. Oerwinde (talk) 09:40, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
- Upload failed. Oerwinde (talk) 10:05, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
I tried to upload my map too, didn't work. I'll try again later.
My army numbers? The 10,000 active and the 5,000 regional soldiers? True, compulsary military service would not at all surprise me. I had blacks allowed into the army when the nation needed the manpower in the mid-90s to push away warlords. Care to have a read of the article and tell me what you think of my version of events please? Not needing reservists would save a lot of money for the state as well as ensure the whole population is war-ready.
True, industrialisation will take upto the late 90s. However, I think any existing industry would be put to use right away - as I think there is still some industry in the OTL capital of the Northern Cape province. Bricks and stone would be better for the location I would have thought? It would be cheaper and easier to obtain as well as provide for strong, solid housing. However, I think once the industry is running the lands will become easier to farm and better to live on - causing an increase in the amount of trade the nation can partake in.
Exactly. That is why the current expansion is being directed towards the Orange river and the seasonal rivers south-east of Windhoek. Seasonal or not - water is water and its use would no doubt help the nation. I think the focus would be more towards the Orange river anyway - I think the GSWA would reach the Orange river by April and almost immediately a lot of people will set up home next to the river to use it. I think that region would become the industrial region of the nation, along with the existing industry currently within the GSWA.
I think the Tswana bantustan would most likely be removed as the whites would no doubt force the Tswanans to move off valuable farmland - and the Tswana would probably think that Botswana would be a better choice, rather than stay in the OFS. I think the Qwa Qwa bantustan would still exist, however.
- No, I thought you had a lower number of soldiers but I can't find where you wrote it. Anyway, I was thinking if we have something like 4-8k man military, this would include combat and support troops, which would act both as a defence force and an emergency response force in the case of natural disasters and such. This combined with compulsory military service should be sufficient for a country this size. Yeah, I read it, I was actually referring to it when I said to bring Blacks into the compulsory service a few years after they started serving as volunteers. So far I like it, I'll let you know if anything doesn't jive with what I was thinking.
- The capital of Northern Cape is Kimberly, so would be in Waterboersland. Springbok and Vrerendel I think are the largest cities in Volkstaat, both of which are less than 20,000 people OTL. Though Upington, which we've ignored so far (would be in the northeast of the territory Volkstaat gets in the proposed treaty borders map) would be a pretty major urban centre too. I think it should probably be a major warlord stronghold that gets taken at some point. Either way, the territory Volkstaat encompasses is sparsely populated, one reason for the claim on the territory for a Volkstaat OTL. So essentially there would be very little industry at all aside from fishing and farming. The voortrekkers would be a pretty educated group though, and getting mining operations set up would be doable pretty quickly I think.
- Oh I agree, they will make use of whatever water they can. I think most of the dams that provide water reservoirs were built prior to the 80s so they should have drinking water at least, but the one near Rehoboth wasn't built until the 90s, so they might have some water supply problems. As for the industrial centre, I think that will remain Windhoek. The area around the Orange will probably have to be heavily utilized as agricultural land.
- Didn't Botswana abandon the south? If so there would be a pretty major trek through large swaths of desert to reach Botswana. Maybe Bophuthatswana managed to eke out some sort of actual independent existence, absorbing land to make it an actual contiguous state. I think that would be a more likely place for the Tswana to go rather than Botswana. Maybe with it eventually joining Botswana.
- As for PRC, I don't see why not. Oh, and the map I mentioned got uploaded. Oerwinde (talk) 11:07, February 25, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, those numbers? 8k active soldiers - with a planned 40k reservists. Now with no need of reservists - we are left with 8k active soldiers. I think an extra 2k "regional" soldiers will do not harm lol. The 2k would be mainly those involved for the natural disasters and such. Yea, it should mean there is no need for reservists lol. This should make our nation pretty well established and well-prepared. Ah, ok I see now. Thank you - it makes more sense with the blacks now lol.
Sorry, I was referring to Springbok and Vrerendal. Those cities ATL have around 75-100k people, so I can clearly see what you mean by then having to focus on housework construction in its early years. I think the mining sector would grow quite nicely - I can imagine the GWSA and Volkstaat signing mining deals and such so they can co-operate in that field and share new inventions for quicker growth. I agree, making it a warlord state would make sense. So when would Volkstaat take it out? I was thinking it would be taken out by around 2010 and with this new treaty people would be encouraged to head to the city/town. I think the city would have its OTL population, and that would come under the control of Volkstaat when it properly moves in.
I think the dams around Rehoboth would begin to be made in 2005-6 and could be completed in 2013 or 2014? That would definately help the nation to solve more water problems and I think the Orange river would indeed be utilised as agricultural land. It would help to bring more people southward and create a need for better roads and such - helping create jobs - helping increase revenue from the people. So definately an upward economic trend.
Well, I was trying to rework that with Vegas - who created the page and the nation's history. Up until 2010, Botswana held control of the south. After that is what I messaged Vegas about. He hasn't really replied yet. Shame. So therefore I think the Tswana would have plently time to get out - I think it would make sense for them to be the ones to cause problems in Botswana. South Africa currently has double the amount of Tswana peoples than Botswana. I think a lot would head to the former capital and cause problems. I would have also thought that Botswana would have annexed Tswana bantustans directly south of their border too.
Sweet, now I can edit the PRC article. I saw and I uploaded my first map where I first mention it lol. Here is my map to show what the situation (atleast for the PRC) is like in early March 2014. I think this year the PRC will focus on getting into the former industrial regions around Beijing. I think they need to so that they can finally get more heavy industry as they desire. I didn't add expansion to Jiangsu as I have no clue where it is looking to expand (article update time?). And Gansu has been made like it was on the Gansu map on the page. I didn't add TRC expansion as I was planning to talk to LG about the nation's expansion. I was planning to talk to him about the TRC finally taking out Nanchung and bringing industrial regions as well as peace to the area. I also made the Manchurian Territory in light Red cause I used the yellow for Yunnan lol.
I was also thinking about a small "exile-state" of some former Yunnanese who believed in communism. I was thinking perhaps 200-400k could migrate somewhere to some city and establish a "new" PRY. I just think it would be cool to do that (it would only be a city state though). And I also plan to add the nation of Hubei to this map! But I think you might need to add the strikes and the names of the nations on my map as I have no clue which font you use lol. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:14, February 25, 2014 (UTC)
- I labelled it and added expansion for Macau, Taiwan, Jiangsu. Also added Hubei based on info I could find. I just use Arial as the font, not sure if I bold it or not. Qinghai I had aligned with Tibet due to the large Tibetan population and the Han and Tibetans (75% of the population) being mostly devout Tibetan buddhists. I hadn't really thought about its actual status in regards to Tibet, as Tibet doesn't really have any desires for empire. I figure it would largely be city states and such aligned with Tibet to keep out of the PRC's hands. With Gansu being absorbed by the PRC, much of the territory may want to start discussing formal union with Tibet, though the Muslim areas may want to remain independant with Tibet essentially a Buddhist theocracy.
- Taiwan pushing to take out Nanchung could be a good event for later this year.
- If Yunnan becomes a democracy, and post-revolution it issued an amnesty for those involved in the communist government, I would think they would just form a communist party in the new republic rather than fleeing.
- The South Africa map was last updated in October of 2013, so as of then, Upington was still outside of Volkstaat control. I'd say we could have Volkstaat take them out maybe next month? Once that happens, the last major threat in the north is gone which could lead to the summit that establishes the official borders between Volkstaat, Waterboersland and New Britain, say around May. Don't feel the need to have events happen in the past. Its an active timeline, and if things are already canon, its not a good idea to go back and change things, especially if the changes impact other articles. This was why I was confused when I found out the PRC took control of Gansu this year rather than next year.
- I don't know how long it takes to build a dam, so that might be good.
- For the military, I think instead of a regional military, a national police force would make more sense. National jurisdiction, but more community based.
- Yeah, reading the Botswana article and with the history of the Azanian league it all sorta fits. Bophuthatswana is actually mostly part of the Azanian League, except for maybe the capital and surrounding lands. So refugees from the fighting there flooding into Botswana largely would have caused the problems. Bophuthatswana as an independent entity is pretty much out of the question. Also, with Botswana pushing for sea access, they may come into conflict with GSWA at some point. Oerwinde (talk) 09:35, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
That map is pretty good! Care to upload it over mine, and delete the new file so we have less maps lol? I think we should look into the regions which have a Muslim majority, and see which areas are Buddhists. Using that, we can effectively see which areas would therefore join Tibet and which areas will not. If the areas which are left over are not united then we can have multiple territories. What I can say for certain is that there will be a large population rise within Tibet - who would no doubt use this to increase their workforce and increase the scope of infrastructure while also being able to increase the size of their armed forces.
Well, care to put your two cents on the Taiwan talkpage then? I kinda suggested a different time-scale - but the main action takes place this year, however. What would the population specs of Nanchung be? I have no doubt that the TRC's population of 27 mil will be more than just a match - but it would be interesting to find out what the population is so we can work out what the population gain would be. Plus, what would the population of the Dragon State be? I just want to know if they can fight off a weak invasion (not that I am planning one or anything)
Oh, so no exile state? Dammit. But I really do not think the Communist Party would be all that popular at all. Considering the whole nation was a dictatorship - I really can't see them gaining very many seats.
Ok, so they move in March (lets say 19th). I think May would be a good time to have the borders established between the nations too. Well I kinda felt the need as due to the lack of active contributors there were not many WCRB posts and the timeline kinda seemed - dead. Compare the 2013 Newshour with the 2010 one and you will see my point. But I agree, we should have lots of events occur this year so that the timeline once more seems alive and growing. Well the thing with the PRC and Gansu was that none of the articles had been updated past late 2011/early 2012 so it did not conflict with canon. However, if we tried to do this for other regions then perhaps it could.
Yea, I think that many years should be plently time and allow for a lot of things to be done with the extra water. Would they also not deeped whatever running water source they have? I think that would also be a good move perhaps.
Ok, the national police force it is.
Thanks. It is good to know the Tswana thing works lol. You should have a look at Vegas' talkpage to see my suggestion for how to handle the issue. I pretty much ask him if the nation would really just pull out and not bother to sort out some deal like I have suggested. Botswana won't come into conflict with the GSWA, it would be Namibia and perhaps the small Angola. Botswana would most probably finally get their canal to the sea this year - they were planning to do that in 2010. This would help the nation to get to the coast. I would like to see how a Namibia-Botswana war would go. GSWA would no doubt support Botswana - and if GSWA joins the AEC then Botswana becomes an economic partner.
- Looking up where the muslims are concentrated, it seems they are mostly right on the border between Qinghai and Gansu, around Lanzhou. Separated by a largely Han area, that would have been majorly effed up around Doomsday, due to its proximity to the Lanzhou bomb. So we could have two minor muslim states, the north one would be dominated by the Hui, while the south would be Hui and Salar. This works with the idea Qinghai being a loose group of small disorganized states.
- The Qinghai and Sichuan Tibetans celebrate being independant of Lhasa OTL, so ATL this would be the reason they've remained independant of the Tibetan monarchy. With the PRC threatening that independence, and with Tibet's largely benevolent rule, it should be no contest who they would rather join. I removed the predominantly Mongol north from the Qinghai territory on the map, labeled the muslim states, and added more of the tibetan areas of Sichuan. Once this area joins Tibet, it should be an increase of around 3.5 million, probably around 70% of which being Tibetan, the rest mostly Han.
- Nanchang would likely have a population around 2-3 million I think. Going off the population of Ganzhou today of around 8 million, with the city itself being nuked, but prefecture level cities being a much larger land area than most people think when they think of a city, I'm thinking the area controlled can probably be around 2-3 million.
- There could be an exile state if you want one. I just think they would either moderate and become a socialist party within the government (most likely if they care more about power than communism), or stick to full on communism and become a fringe party. If their goals are power they will go wherever that is most likely, if they truly believe in communism they would form some sort of rebel communist militia and try to overthrow the democracy.
- I'm not complaining, I do think we need to be clearer in our discussions whether stuff has already happened or if it is going to happen though.
- Hrmm, I didn't even realize there was a Namibia. Looking at the article it shouldn't be called Namibia though. Namibia gets its name from the Namib desert, none of which is within the borders of the DD Namibia. It should be called Ovamboland or something like that. As for the canal, it would take a lot more time than that I think. The Panama Canal took like 12 years to build, with French and US investment. Botswana would be doing it over a larger area, with far less money. Also looking at it, it really doesn't seem like a viable project. Connecting the Okavango to the sea would threaten Botswana's main water supply. Unless they also diverted the Cuando back into Lake Makgadikgadi, I don't think the risk is worth it. Plus they would need to build it directly through Namibian territory. A more viable option might be to claim the Caprivi strip, since Namibia won't be able to hold it, and work with Mozambique and whatever is left of Zimbabwe to build a series of Canals along the Zambezi, avoiding the rapids along the river. Though I don't know how doable that would be either. I would think it would be more doable than linking the Okavango to the sea, as with that you're essentially building a new river across most of northern Namibia. Oerwinde (talk) 10:24, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
It does work lol. And I think that these two small states could eventually look for some way to perhaps merge their borders through the other sections of Qinghai territory. Especially with the fact the regions in between them are largely depopulated. I think as soon as the radiation is at more respectable levels the two states will expand to bring their borders in contact with each other.
Yes, I agree it would be most logical for other Tibetian groups to join the nation, especially with the fact that the PRC's population nearly doubled with them assimilating the state of Gansu into their nation. I do not think you should remove the Mongol areas - they would still need some sort of protection and thus them being under Tibetian control would be quite logical. Perhaps you should put the colour of the Muslim states the same as the other territories of Tibet and just give them a small border to seperate them? That would make it clear that they are a seperate territory of Tibet. So a new population of around 6 million? That is a significant increase for the nation and no doubt the nation would be glad with the increase levels.
2-3 million? Cool.
I do not think they would form a militia but I think perhaps them trying to get into politics would be a better move rather than trying to establish an exile state in the middle of nowhere. I think there could be a split between the socialists and communists - with obviously the socialists being more popular. I could see some 4-5k leave the nation, never to be heard again. Most probably these people would probably get absorbed into some small state here and there.
Ok, I will make sure discussions on the timescale are clearer lol.
Hmm. Ovamboland? That is an interesting point. I might state that on the nation's talkpage and see what Godfrey thinks about it. Ah, well the canal was kinda the idea of Vegas, so I will need to ask him his opinion. Botswana already holds the Caprivi strip - they have held it for quite some time. They were really looking for some breathing space for their people as their population I am pretty sure is nearly double of what the have in OTL because of the Tswana people from the south coming into Botswana. I was kinda hoping there would be a Namibian-Botswanan war but i think that is too far-fetched, especially with the fact Botswana is more focused on conquering the Soviet Kingdoms. I like the idea of having multiple canals connecting to the Zambizi and stuff. Mozambique is around too, so that would work in that region. Zimbabwe is the problem. Now Caer has two articles - proposals, and LG has stated that the "Azanian League could expand in Zimbabwe". Therefore, I think I might make a new proposal for the state of Zimbabwe where it does not splinter and is actually a stable democracy. Thoughts? :) Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:13, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
They could possibly merge along the PRC border if the PRC doesn't take them. Between them on the west are two of the bigger cities in the region, mostly populated by Han and Tibetans, so it would have to be along the border, or they would have to rule pretty large non-muslim populations.
I removed the Mongol sections because until now, its more likely for them to be independant or part of a larger movement for an independent Mongol state or to join the Mongolia SSR.
I think if they're really that devoted, they would make their way to the PRC. By now they would have heard of it.
Yeah, Ovamboland was the name of the Bantustan that makes up like 75% of ATL Namibia's land. The Namib desert is along the coast, and none of it is within Namibia's borders. Zimbabwe is an odd one. On one hand the 80s were when Mugabe wasn't a complete nutjob and did a halfway decent job of running the country. But at the same time they lost the source of money used for buying land from white landowners for land reform with the loss of Britain, which was one of the reasons they were able to keep things civil between whites and blacks. A big source of the pains OTL though was conflict with Apartheid SA, which wouldn't happen anymore. So its really a tossup what would happen with Zimbabwe. Mugabe could remain a decent ruler and keep the country together, or he could descend into madness faster than OTL. I would need to do some research before I could help with that. Oerwinde (talk) 07:14, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
So the Mongols state that their relations with Tibet are over and they want to go their own way? So be it.
Yea, I think news of the PRC would get to them by 2008 itself. I think a few would leave to head to the PRC and live in the nation, but for one the journey will be quite tough. I wonder what the PRC will begin to do now it has gained a lot more agricultural resources. Perhaps establishing some sort of control in the ruins of Beijing and the outskirts and re-starting and rebuilding old industry - at least on the outskirts of the city perhaps? Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:54, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
I do not want to sign in,
I am the copyright owner of the image I responded to.
My name is Ken Smith, and the website is TimewalkerStudios.com
I did not authorize, or give permission that this image be displayed on this site. The image displayed clearly states my copyright information, and that ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
I demand that this image be removed. This image being displayed here on this site without permission impacts my ability to present and display this image to my established retail market.
I have removed the offending image. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.Oerwinde (talk) 23:10, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
I haven't been snooping in a while but I check my email notifications.Oerwinde (talk) 23:51, July 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I see. I look forward to see what you can find out about Zimbabwe. I kinda have this idea that Zimbabwe does not go the way Caer put in his proposals - instead becoming stronger and compared to its southern neighbour, a freer and more equal nation. It also expands slightly, to control some Mozambique lands taken when the nation was in disarray. I think it would be ironic and cool if we could state "doomsday forced Mugabe to get his act together and steel himself up", which would allow him to run the nation properly and become a popular and much loved leader. I would wonder what its relations would be like with its northern neighbour. Would unification be out of the question? :L Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:54, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
- What could happen in Zimbabwe is due to doomsday, it could force the 1987 unity agreement between Mugabe's ZANU, and Nkomo's ZAPU up earlier. Within the context of Doomsday this may prevent Nkomo from losing the influence he did OTL with the merger, and allow him to become a more potent force within ZANU PF, and therefore the Zimbabwean government. He could possibly even win the party leadership away from Mugabe if it's still the Westminster system. I don't know when they switched from the westminster system to a presidential-parliamentary system. If its a presidential-parliamentary system we could see Nkomo being Prime Minister with Mugabe as president.
- Now, without the British funds for the Willing Buyer/Willing Seller form of land redistribution, the government won't have the funds to purchase white-owned land, but land reform is a major issue since whites at this point own something like 70% of the land or more, while being like 8% of the population or something like that. So its either going to resort to land grabs on white land owners, or there is going to have to be some sort of arrangement between land owners and the government to allow for redistribution without severely pissing off the whites. Possibly property tax exemptions for a period of time with some sort of guaranteed representation in cabinet for whites.
- I don't have the time to do more research right now, but I will try to in the next few days.Oerwinde (talk) 08:38, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
I prefer it to be a Westminister-system. It would make sure that there is one clear leader and not multiple leaders vying for power at the same time. However, I think a coalition government would indeed be induced earlier - kinda like the thinking that "many minds are better than one". I think Nkomo would definately end up becoming Deputy Prime Minister. I am not sure whether the post of President should still be put in. i will talk more about it in the other section. After the initial problems and stuff have been sorted out, I think we could see a proper election take place - where voting fraud could not be carried out as both parties are keeping each other in check. The outcome can be decided later - but I think the position of Prime Minister should swing from one to another in the 15 years after the first election post-DD, which is only ended when Mugabe retires with respect from politics.
Well, the British have pretty much been wiped from the map, and Zimbabwe has no way to buy the land from the whites on their own - so they will need to play nice. This applies especially in the first year after Doomsday - while South Africa still has a functioning military. I think their priority would definately first to be to control the immigration into the country, then sort out the land problems, then the food problems, then everything else. I think the whites would come to the negociating table, because they would see that they would not have much choice in the end. I think the whites will be allowed to keep 10% of the overall land (plenty), while the rest becomes government land and the state pretty much decides what happens where. I think the whites would most definately ask for representation into Parliament and perhaps (this is what I was referring to) would want the post of a symbolic governer-general to be established instead of President and although it would be a figurehead, it would be held by whites. The government would also understand that this would largely be a move by the whites to make themselves feel safe and thus would probably allow it.
I think the whites would also enforce things such as tax exemptions - but the best one I could think of would be child support (or increased child support) for their children. "It is the least you can do", the whites would probably say. This would not only help the whites remain financially stable without their lands, it would also encourage them to have more children, who would help contribute in Zimbabwian society. I would love to see a "white Prime Minister" post-2010, like America's first black President in OTL. I would think by the modern day the whites would make up around 11-15% of the Zimbabwian population - mainly because they live in better locations and would not have to face diseases like cholera on a day to day basis - which I would think would still be a big problem for Zimbabwe, but a shrinking one at that. They would be treated like how blacks are treated in America, quite equal but racism cases not being uncommon. Plus, I think they would also have to adopt a "Zimbabwian" identity - like how the mixed and blacks of Volkstaat would be pushed to adopt the Afrikaaner identity.
- The Westminster system would only prevent leaders vying for power if they maintained their link to the monarchy. Which they didn't due to the UDI (Rhodesia's declaration of independence). I think thats why the position of President was created in the first place, as a replacement for the monarch. As for the position of PM swinging between the two, that wouldn't be likely while they are members of the same party. If Nkomo decides to split with Mugabe again, forming a new party, that may be possible, but for him to not just look like he's bringing up old grudges, his support base for the new party would have to be in the north/northeast. He would obviously draw from the south/southwest as thats where his supporters live, but for the new party to not just be ZAPU 2, it has to be clear that its a multi-ethnic party.
- I think having a set number or % of cabinet posts in government held by whites would be a more likely demand/offer than the post of Governor General. The GG is traditionally the representative of the monarch as well, and with no ties to the monarchy, its not a likely post to exist. President would be most likely, and I would think thats an elected position. I think there is going to be the need for a constitutional convention to ensure the stability of the country. Paramilitary groups will have to be outlawed and a strong court system established. Both Nkomo and Mugabe were teachers and believed in the importance of education, and even today, Zimbabwe is one of the better educated african countries, so filling posts wouldn't be an issue. Strong anti-corruption laws would be very important.
- I think whites would still control a disproportionate amount of land, but not nearly the level its at now. Maybe 35%. As for a Zimbabwean national identity, they already have that. The best way to maintain it would be for the state to ensure the security of whites and to try to promote a sense of brotherhood between whites and blacks so that they feel loyalty to the country. The Afrikaner identity is primarily Afrikaans speaking, dutch reformed christian, Zimbabwe is already mostly English speaking and anglican, so there isn't much to push for. Eliminating tribal conflict would be a bigger issue than trying to get the whites on board with the local culture.
- With the whites recieving tax exemptions on their land, as well as being able to keep their other material wealth, I don't think child care is going to be a huge issue. They are still going to be the richest people in Zimbabwe, at least for the first couple decades, and they will essentially get to live on the land they keep for free. Exemptions would only last for, lets say 2 generations, current landholder, and their heir, and they don't apply to any land purchased after the exchanges, and aren't transferred (So if one white sold his land to another, that land wouldn't be tax exempt). Losing large amounts of farmland would likely promote whites to start businesses not reliant on land as well, which would improve the economy.
- Whites wouldn't make up that high of a percentage. They were 4.3% of the population in 1970, (less than 1% in modern day), and I don't see their numbers tripling while the black population is stagnate. I would say maybe 6%, 8% if you really want to push it, but its not very likely.
- So lets think of these points
- Unity agreement in 1984. In the context of Doomsday, Nkomo is able to spin it as a compromise that is best for the country, rather than it being seen as a major defeat as it was OTL. Nkomo is able to maintain his influence and is a strong foil to Mugabe, so Mugabe isn't able to keep a stranglehold on government.
- Whites trade land for tax exemptions and constitutionally enshrined political representation (Lets say no less than 10% of MPs have to be white, and 10% of cabinet posts must be held by white MPs, maybe 15% on both, depends on the size of cabinet and the commons). Maybe throw in free utilities for 10 years as well. Resulting in 35% of farmland held by whites by present day. Still disproportionate, but better than OTL I believe. (Whites control 70% I think nowadays)
- Land reform program involves white experts, so that new farms don't fail as much.
- Mugabe/Nkomo government eventually leads to a strong court system, and an education system that promotes ethics in business and government. Much less corruption in modern day than OTL.
- Thats all I can think of for now. I was hoping to be in bed an hour ago...Oerwinde (talk) 10:11, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry about that lol. Well, I think time to make a new article for Zimbabwe draws near.
Well there is no link to the monarchy - so does that mean it will have to be abolished or made into something like what India's is today? I see, it does make sense that it would not be, but I think that after 8 years of a "unity" government, Nkomo might as well decide to split due to the fact he could be "getting sidelined" or something and thus would form his own party. I think he would probably look to establish a "multicultural" party and thus be a very different part from ZAPU. I think due to its small size and not good footing in the early years, it would lose its first election but it would go on to become popular and win its second election. I think one party would become like a watchdog for the other - especially in matters of education where both leaders were teachers in. I would think they would decide to eventually establish a seperate teaching body made up of former and present teachers which would keep their education system world class.
I see. No governer general then, but a % does seem to be logical. I think although the President will be elected, he should be a figurehead with all the power lying with the Prime Minister. I think that this constitutional convention would be of paramount importance, perhaps one of the major things on the "to do list" of the unity government. Paramilitary groups will have to be banned, to keep the peace and anti-corruption laws will probably brought in, before any of the leaders begins to deviate from their task to their nation. Plus, with the loss of international banks - motives for corruption are significantly reduced.
I also think the whites would no doubt be willing to give up more than what you suggest in terms of land for greater representation in parliament - they gain power. I think they would at most keep 15-20% of land, while get something like 12-15% representation, perhaps greater. Population wise, I would like to push it, so 8% it is. XD
I completely agree with all the points about land. If we get more white businessmen, not only will the economy diversify and grow and be supported by more people, it would also allow for the easier intregation of the whites. It is good to know that the whites will not have major problems with getting a sense of loyality with Zimbabwe. As far as I can see it, it would mean that they would not really ever be interested in going back to the shattered remains of the United Kingdom. Plus, this would mean the minority would get Zimbabwe in the AEC camp - almost certainly. Tribal issues are going to be a problem. I would suggest an upper house such as in Westminister where we chould have chieftons instead of lords, its what I did for KwaZulu.
So the points:
- Agree on first point.
- Agree on the government points, but I have different ideas for the land control ones. I think no more than (at max) 20% belongs to whites.
- Most definately. I would think many whites would create companies which would specialising in sending experts to farmers who own large areas of land and would like to maximise production and profit.
- Yep, agree again. I think strong foundations would lead to a stable nation looking out for its own as well as its allies interests. So yeah! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:46, March 13, 2014 (UTC)
I went with 35% because the number we're starting with is like 90%, so stripping them of 70-75% of the land with only some guarantees of representation and some tax exemptions is going to be pretty brutal. Leaving them with 35% still makes them a major power in agriculture, but still leaves the majority to the blacks. I had actually lowered it because I thought 40-50% would be more likely. Especially considering OTL they had money to actually purchase the land for redistribution and still only ended up reducing it to 70%. We're trying to get a number than won't piss off the whites too much. With 35% they'll still be angry, even with the concessions, but they might still consider staying, with 20% they'll likely just go elsewhere.Oerwinde (talk) 21:56, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for the really late reply. Whites forming some sort of consultation industry to advise black businesses would likely make a lot of whites even more rich, while increasing economic output and actually increasing black goodwill towards them. I think thats a great idea. As for a house of tribal leaders, I think minimizing tribal influence would be both more stabilizing and much less divisive in the long run. Unless the government is entirely reformed to create some sort of semi-federal system with the tribal lands forming small constitutional monarchies under the federal government. Either way, reducing tribal identity would be for the best in the long run in esuring a stable country.Oerwinde (talk) 20:08, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
AEC and RZA
I swear I have tried to type a response three times, and I cannot remember what I was going to say lol. Zimbabwe sounds pretty good. However, now we have the fact that Mozambique is in a civil-war while Zimbabwe remains relatively stable. I was talking to LG about Zimbabwe expanding into Mozambique (I looked into the ethnicities of the region and central/south Mozambique has a similar group of people as a lot of Zimbabwe) and although it was in a civil war LG stated that Zimbabwe isn't going to be much better than Mozambique. Certainly not stronger to the point where they could do that, or even expand into its lands at all. Have a look at the proposal talkpage.
So I was wondering if Zimbabwe would expand to get a link to the sea, which would be highly beneficial to the nation?
Another topic I wanted to discuss was the Tswana in northern former South Africa. Now although Waterboersland has been allocated a lot of the territories that are most likely under the influence of Botswana, what is going to happen now? We did admittedly talk about this before, on how the migration of a lot of the Tswana toward the north into Botswana helped destablise the southern regions of the country and turn the region into a vassal rather than under the direct administration of the government, but after having researched the Tswana bantustans, I have found that the light blue regions would be Tswana dominated. So when the borders between Volkstaat, NB and Waterboersland are worked out, are we going to be seeing something along the lines of the region being "claimed" by Waterboersland but acutally coming under Botswanan influence? Like if this is the case, then perhaps a war or some sort of diplomatic sit-down between the countries will probably have to occur (with perhaps NB mediation). I would require yout thoughts on this.
Plus, I think I will have to look into the territorial aquisitions of Botswana as it is previous stated that they went to war with the Soviet Kingdoms in 2010/11. Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:33, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
- If its claimed by Waterboersland but more or less under Botswanan control, there isn't going to be any way Waterboersland can enforce those claims considering how militarily weak they are. Maybe the area could be under joint control, with official borders being worked out between the two at a later date, like the Columbia/Oregon territory between Canada and the US back in the day.Oerwinde (talk) 20:38, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
Right. Joint control sounds good, I think that is what should be done with the region. We can put off an official border talk between both nations to perhaps later on this year. I think by late 2015, Botswana would look to re-incorperate its southern territories into Botswana main - after 4 years of dealing with other stuff. I think that is plenty time for them to handle other issues relating with Angola and a link to the sea and stuff.
I also came to realise that the ideology of the former Cape was quite similar to Volkstaat's, apart from the fact the blacks are treated much better in the latter. Thus I was wondering if the Volkstaat Front would perhaps partake in RZA politics, with a different name, but with a similar ideology with the aim of aligning the two nation's ideologies toward one. Or perhaps some sort of economic union could take place between the two nations. Currently there seems to be too little information on what actually happened with the RZA, apart from the fact it was invaded by an SAC-ANZC coalition and that new Britain invaded its "claimed" easternmost lands which it eventually returned to the RZA, giving it proper control over said lands. Any info you could provide on the nation would be great, because I should officially have adopted the page by Tuesday as I sent Ben a message last Tuesday on whether I could adopt the article.
I have also almost completed all of the history of Volkstaat. If you could cross check and please tell me of you think it is ok or if anything would need to be changed? Also, what are your thoughts on the Zimbabwe points in my last message? Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:08, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
Well, looking at Mozambique, and our discussions of Zimbabwe, Zimbabwean political stability wouldn't be at a point where they could think of invading another country until after the Mozambique civil war had ended, so not really plausible. If Mozambique was still a proposal, Zimbabwe committing to one side of the civil war in exchange for a sea link might have worked, but since we have to work with canon its not going to happen.
As for Volkstaat, I don't think adopting the RZA Rand is such a good idea. I think Volkstaat's stability, economic growth and such are going to make having its own currency not tied to the Cape more attractive, at least until the NUSA. Also, I'm pretty sure a Labour party isn't going to introduce austerity measures. In times of economic downturn, right leaning governments introduce austerity, generally left leaning governments introduce stimulus. Big government projects to try to stimulate economic growth at the expense of national debt. The conservative business culture created by the Volkstaat Front, combined with large-scale infrastructure projects by the labour party would likely be the driving force behind economic recovery, rather than cutting spending. The huge debts created by this could still result in the Volkstaat front returning to power, but over time people will look at it as a good thing.Oerwinde (talk) 09:46, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
Well, I see. The civil-war was ongoing until 2004, and there is not much mention of the sides in the civil war. If we so wished, we could add that to the Mozambique article - technically we would not be removing any canon material, that Zimbabwe supported the winning side and in exchange was allowed to lease out the city and rebuild it and use it as a shipping port maybe? Other articles aren't really impacted by the article so theoretically it could be done.
I think I was implying that RZA and Volkstaat form a new currency together, or that Volkstaat changes to the Union Rand, which is still in use by all 5 former members of NUSA with no current plans to change it. Like the only thing I could see happening with currency change is all the western former-NUSA states could adopt the British Pound (£), along with the RZA, leaving only KwaZulu and Lesotho using the Union Rand.
Right, I'll change it so that the government introduces huge stimuli. What fields do you reckon these large projects should occur in? The thing that comes straight to mind is housing and reconstruction projects in Upington but that only comes under Volkstaat control in 2014, and the Labour government is out by 2012. Logically I think huge investments would be made in the industrial and mining sector and I most definitely think the highest focus would be on infrastructure links such as rail roads and buying train engines from other countries and such. I think when the VF comes into power in 2012 they are going to inherit a huge ongoing railway expansion project which would connect up the current three or four major centres of the country. When they capture Upington, the transport minister is going to have a field day - they now have a link to transport all the products of the region straight to export. What do you think? Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:41, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think its really plausible at this point for Zimbabwe to control anything on the coast. They would have been dealing with their own internal stuff, while also dealing with the spillover from both Mozambique and the collapse of South Africa.
- The Union Rand is canon, I'm talking before the NUSA when they just adopted the Republic of the Cape's currency. While relations between Volkstaat and the RotC were good, the RotC was becoming an international pariah, while Volkstaat was on its way up. Adopting the RZA Rand doesn't make sense for them in my opinion. They should have their own currency until the adoption of the Union Rand.
- Definitely transportation, both frieght and passenger rail, especially ensuring connections with its neighbours. Highway projects, government buildings, power and irrigation projects, port facilities, schools. Basically, anything that would have a long term benefit to the country. Not too much at once though, the population isn't very large. Maybe a major rail project, a university, and a cogeneration desalinization plant (power plants that desalinize seawater)? The desalinization plants would depend on Volkstaat's access to nuclear power technology. I know South Africa had nuclear weapons, which meant they could enrich uranium, which meant they had nuclear plants, and Volkstaat has most of the surviving scientists and engineers from Johannesburg, but I think Volkstaat's ability to build nuclear reactors needs some research. A cogeneration plant would be ideal for Volkstaat, as it would provide both power, and potable water, which would be a major concern, as they are in the most arid part of South Africa.Oerwinde (talk) 09:01, January 27, 2015 (UTC)
Right. When would they potentially look into owning a port city - well, anywhere?
Oh yeah, I found the page having stated that its former currency was the RZA Rand. I'll look into changing that into something like the Afrikaans Rand or something, that should work better. So what is the future of the Union Rand, even though the new union has broken up? I do believe the Pound should be used for the AEC, it'll help all the nations.
Ok, transportation does sound pretty good. Yes, they are only now remotely nearing a million people, so i personally feel that a lot of effor would be put into railroads. I think the construction of the University would probably occur in Sprinkbok, along with finally establishing a permanent "parliament" building? The deslinisation plants, are they not very expensive to operate? I know the UAE in OTL uses them but they do have a lot of money. I will look into that when I have the time, as it would be a big bonus for the people.
So on a related matter, what is happening with the RZA? Can the Volkstaat Front establish a major political presence in the region? The Cape was pretty much Volkstaat gone wrong, so I think perhaps they could have a lot of support? Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:28, January 27, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think they would. There are a lot of landlocked countries that do ok, and as long as they have a link to a stable port, they should be fine. I think investing in making sure Mozambique is a stable outlet for them would be more important than getting their own port.
- I think the Union Rand will stick around for a while. I doubt Volkstaat will adopt the pound. Currency unions aren't all good. They generally really screw with the weaker economies within the unions. With different currencies the low value currency countries tend to get a lot of investment and people buy a lot of their exports, and when the value goes up, they can then buy more cheap imports and such to make up for the cost of local goods. In a currency union if the economy goes down the cost stays the same so people just get poorer.
- I was thinking of a parliament building too. Cogeneration plants are a way to mitigate the cost because the power plant powers the desalinization as well as adding to the power grid. Bigger initial investment, but cheaper to operate than a straight desal plant. Since I was thinking originally of both a power project and a desal project, finding out about cogeneration plants was perfect.
- The Cape was odd, it was more about language than culture. They should still be pretty staunch allies of Volkstaat because of the similarities though. I do think the "Provisional" government should transition soon and establish a full on state. Oerwinde (talk) 18:44, January 27, 2015 (UTC)
Right, let us take that option there. So investment in a port city of Mozambique to ensure that they have a trading link to the outside world which can help the country remain stable and growing. Plus the fact that with better farming policies the nation is pretty much going to be able to export to the parts of the world that need food.
Right I see. I thought the Union Rand was a good idea at the time I had NUSA announce it, but I failed to take into account they were going to collapse. Although if I am honest, I'm guessing the member states were relatively the same situation, not seeing the breakup coming. I think Volkstaat kinda did that with their huge investment plan, which put the other countries in a bonus but fucked over Volkstaat for a few years, kinda like what happened with Jiangsu.
Ok, a congeneration plant it is. Perhaps the University building could be build quite close to the parliament - gives off the idea that do well and you could help write the fate of your country kinda thing lol. Would there be 24 hours of electricity in Volkstaat?
Yea I could see that with like the anti-English stance they went into. Yea, I believe that Volkstaat would love to work with a new government that they have some influence over if they like support a party that wins or open a branch of the VF which gains a lot of influence (probably the former is more likely). Yea, I think that would have happened by last year (shold have really happened after 5 years of the invasion but yea).
- Its not even investment in a city, it would be investment in infrastructure. Ensuring road and rail links between Zimbabwe and the coast remain maintained and functional, ensuring capacity remains enough not to bottleneck transport, etc. This could mean an investment in local law enforcement to ensure crime is low and reduce or eliminate hijackings, investment in road and rail construction, and investment in port facilities. Much of this won't even be Zimbabwe's direct involvement, but the involvement of Zimbabwean corporations and smaller businesses. Countries generally don't get directly involved in foreign investment other than making deals to ensure their businesses have good access to the country. Free trade or limited free trade agreements would be the best way to go about this. The more business moves through Mozambique, the more they make off taxes and tariffs, the more incentive they have to ensure the free movement of goods and such, and the more they will invest in their own infrastructure.
- Zimbabwe is going to be in a good economic place there. If going by our plan, they had good stability compared to their neighbours, at least no real open war in the last few decades, while their neighbours collapsed more or less. This leaves them in good position to ramp up food production and such, and when the dust clears they should be the major food supplier to the Azanian League, Mozambique, and Botswana. At least until these places stabilize and get their own production in order. Mozambique should be able to become self sufficient eventually.
- 24 hour electricity once the plant is finished. With Volkstaat's resources that might take a while, but the point is economic stimulus, so long term projects aren't something they are going to shy away from, especially one with as much of a benefit as that. We still need to look into the viability of the project though. The availability of the technology and such.Oerwinde (talk) 21:24, January 30, 2015 (UTC)
I see. I do believe investment in infrastructure would be a logical move. I think they would need to insure that rail links exist in the first place, and then they focus on maintaining them and such. Once this is done, then the next move would be to build more railroads along the existing one to ensure that there is always space for the transportation of goods. Better to have a railroad that isn't used as often than just one railroad that slows down trasnportation times. Yes, investment in law enforcement would be a good move. Some of Zimbabwe's police officers could help to teach their local counter-parts more effective training perhaps.
Yea, the government could offer subsidies to private corporations ontaking this and this would allow for quick and effective construction of infrastructure in both nations. For a country like Mozambique after the civil war, any investment and money they can make off would be very useful and I do not seeing their government having any problems. They would actually endorse such projects I predict.
Yea, I think our plan allows the country to actually manage their land in a much smarter manner. Zimbabwe could become the land use expert in the region when it comes to farming - as in how to maintain soil quality and what crops to rotate to get the most out of soil. The neighbours collapsed and then reestablished themselves? Yep, I think they would definitely be able to supply crops to such regions - and I can see Botswana pursuing greater import treaties with the nation and perhaps influencing Zimbabwe to co-operate more with the AEC. I am not sure about the food production abilities within the Azanian State, but I gues Zimbabwe would help them manage their land and such.
I see. Yes, indeed such a project's aim would be exactly that. I think as the economic connections of Volkstaat expand, they would have an easier time in finding such resources. Plus, with the SAC and ANZC influence being in the RZA, they could easily ask both nations to loan some parts - which Volkstaat would pay back for in money over time I think. Once the government decides to do it, it is only a matter of time before the project would be accomplished.
On a sidenote, I have become inspired to have an Eminem counter-part in Zimbabwe (possibly becoming the biggest rapper since doomsday). Something like his land being forcably taken away by a black man and forcing him to live in poverty with his mum in black areas could be the perfect back-story. XD Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:19, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
- The civil war that lead to the creation of the Azanian League hit it pretty hard. I'm not sure if I wrote it, but there is currently kind of a cold war going on with Orange Free State and them, with OFS being much more stable and developed, plus with the alliance/federation with Heiligdom there is a bit more pressure. the AL took advantage of OFS and Heiligdom being white states to unite their people against a common enemy after years of civil war, which is why they were able to stabilize relatively quickly, but their industrial base was hit hard. Using Zimbabwe's resources so they can focus on national unity and power projection would be part of their strategy. They would likely push for Zimbabwe to join the AL, but with the status Zimbabwe's white minority has, that would be an extremely unpopular idea in Zimbabwe.
- I like the idea of more cultural stuff, and Zimbabwe becoming kind of a cultural centre of black Southern Africa, I don't know how much penetration Rap had into the markets there in the 80s, because it was a relatively new kind of music back then, and then got its main sources snuffed out. I do like the idea of a white african adopting bits of african folk music and western style music into something unique though.Oerwinde (talk) 00:31, February 1, 2015 (UTC)
I don't think you did, although if you read into the region it would be easy to presume such a thing exists. Exactly the Orange Free State never went through a civil war and has some of the best resources in South Africa at their disposal allowing their economy to remain strong. I think after the Federation the nation will have more pressure against the AL tbh. Yea, the fact that the nations stabilised because of those two states fits in perfectly with what is on the page. I remember discussing industry on the AL talkpage so I have an indication of how badly the industry suffered. Precisely, especially once the Conservative Alliance comes into power they would be quite vary of the AL.
That idea is pretty cool. If I am honest I kinda did think him as a pioneer in the field, the first to start off the whole rap thing in the DD world lol. I guess that can still be done by mixing the two styles together if I am honest. Perhaps he could sing and rap which would make it easier to create the fusion music? Or we could have two seperate artists for both. Also if you would not mind, could you have a look at the current Zimbabwe article and edit the parts which don't work? Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:29, February 1, 2015 (UTC)
Zimbabwe article looks good so far, I just changed some language to make things a little clearer, and separated the refugee crisis from the Constitutional Convention section. Both will likely need a little more fleshing out, moreso on the refugees, as they're handwaved a little bit, because bringing in like 200,000 people is going to be a lot more difficult than stated.
I think finding a different word to use rather than rap would be ideal. Pretty sure rap was like inner city slang. Some sort of harmonic spoken word thing would definitely be something that could arise elsewhere though.Oerwinde (talk) 19:44, February 2, 2015 (UTC)
Yea, I do seem to mess up language a bit. It kinda gets unclear what i am trying to convey, so thank you. Yes, it will be. I just haven't got round to fleshing it out, which I have saved to do for later.
Yea, I guess you are right with that one. Will have to look into it. We also seem to be seeing a need to make a page for Good Hope, which i think we will have to get round to making later on. However, tbh, I think we should make the flag first so we have something representing the nation if you get what I mean? Imp (Say Hi?!) 01:41, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
I did up a couple possible flags:
Option one uses the colours of the coat of arms of Cape Colony, with a black stripe to represent the native africans in the format that was so common of the independent states of South Africa, the second is just the coat of arms on the Prince's Flag, which was representative of South Africa's origins for so long. Any other ideas, or is one of these good?Oerwinde (talk) 03:14, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
I think if we use the Prince's colours for the first flag, then that could potentially be the new flag for Good Hope. It would work quite nicely, although if we could have found the coat of arms in an svg version then I believe an svg version could be made which would not have to suffer from distortion. I think it still looks good anyway tho. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
Okie doke. Doesn't look too bad. Yeah, I tried finding a better picture of the coat of arms, but that was the highest res one I found. I didn't even change the size when adding it to the flag because I didn't want to distort it.Oerwinde (talk) 21:18, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
Looks great tbh. The black bar does seem pretty prominent but I guess you get that when you add in a black stripe. I'll use the flag for the AEC page, and then we can look into adding a proposal for the state. I think we already have the basics laid down for the state.
I was wondering however, could the Cape and Volkstaat be building a motorway connecting both countries' main cities/settlements? And a railroad to run alongside which could link up with the NB-Volkstaat railroads? Perhaps we could also look into a coustoms union between Volkstaat and Good Hope, athough I think the AEC may already have proposed something along those lines which will become official sometime later this year. Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:07, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
We don't want Volkstaat creating too many close ties. Good relations sure, but the whole point of the country is as an independent homeland for Afrikaner people. Moving towards various unions is against their national interests.
I could try another colour instead of the black, or we could just go with option 2.Oerwinde (talk) 21:12, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
Alright. So it'll only be in the AEC or something then, nothing major in anything else. However, they will still look to pursue an aggressive international economic policy I believe? It is traditionally quite a conservative country.
I think using the Volkstaat flag as a basis, and recolouring that would help significantly. I might try to make one later on today and post it here and see what you think. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:09, February 10, 2015 (UTC)
So I went away and made some flags on paint.
So this is what I ended up with. Once I made one flag, I could not resist making a couple more and just posting them here for your opinion. Do you reckon they could better represent Good Hope? I have admittedly used the South African flag as a base yet I think it does not work too badly. Although if I am honest, the first version (the flag whose width that I extended) would be quite a good one to use for Good Hope anyway. Your call lol. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:41, February 10, 2015 (UTC)
I like the length extended one. It keeps the aesthetic, while making the black stripe less prominent.Oerwinde (talk) 17:34, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
I just found today your TL and I am stunned. That's why I ask you to give me permission (not sure if I need to, just safe-checking) to edit on Sundered Veils. Andreas.martonosy (talk) 16:24, August 8, 2015 (UTC)
Stopping By and Oregon
Hey Oer, hope everything's been well; I've returned to the site after several years of inactivity and have been trying to get back to finishing off some of the projects I left behind when I left a few years back. On the topic of this, I was wondering if I could contribute to the page on Oregon as it ties in with what I was doing regarding bringing the Atlantic Remnant and mainland US closer together. Let me know, thanks. Arstar talk 08:59, September 6, 2015 (UTC)
If you haven't created a page you want to post it to yet, you can always add it to your user page if you want to display it. Otherwise you can just upload it and keep the filename handy for when you do want to use it. Make sure to go into the file properties after it's uploaded to add categories.Oerwinde (talk) 07:08, October 28, 2015 (UTC)
Proposals for Prussia
I hope you don't mind, I hate to seem annoying or pesky, but I would like to contribute to Prussia. Prussia is one of my favorite articles within the 1983: Doomsday, and I do have some proposals and ideas for Prussia. Some include:
- Incorporation of Kaliningrad (Königsberg): Not too long ago, I adopted an article originally created by User:Colgan dog titled Kaliningrad Soviet. At first, I thought that it was impossible for Kaliningrad to survive Doomsday or a nuclear war in general, since it was home to the Russian Baltic fleet, however I came to realise that not all major cities would likely be destroyed during a nuclear war due to a number of reasons, as missiles could malfunction or be destroyed by missile defence systems (although missile defence systems barely existed in 1983). I also thought that since Prussia came back from the dead, there is no way that Kaliningrad would remain an independent nation. Nothing against Colgan, I think that he's a great writer and creator. I like the idea of Kaliningrad surviving, a Russian province trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic world, I just don't think that it would be possible since Prussia came back from the dead. When I adopted the article, I decided to have Prussia retake the region.
- King Georg: I am interested in creating a article for the King of Prussia, the fictional son of King Christian I (or Christian-Sigismund). I would like to explore into the Prussian Royal Family, including Georg's mother, wife, and children. I decided to have King Georg's wife be Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg and for his mother I choose Princess Marie of Hannover.
- Subdivisions: I have also thought of subdivisions for the Kingdom of Prussia. I would imagine that since Prussia had annexed Pomerania from West Poland and experienced ethnic tensions, the Kingdom would be a federal constitutional monarchy. I have came up with four provinces for Prussia, which are; Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Pomerania, and Kaliningrad-Königsberg. I have also come up with federal cities, which are Berlin and Neu Königsberg.
Prussia has sworn off taking any claimed land after Georg came to power, so Kaliningrad would have to petition for annexation. After Pommerania they would be wary of annexing non-german lands as well, and post ww2 the German population of East Prussia was expelled and replaced by Russians. They could be a client state with an effort to germanize the population prior to annexation, but that would take decades and likely see resistance from the population. As for Georg go for it. I never put a lot of thought into him other than his name and him being more of a statesman than his father. Subdividing Prussia would be a recent thing, as they started out more or less as a city-state based in Berlin and established order as they moved outward.Oerwinde (talk) 05:50, August 7, 2018 (UTC)
I'm well aware that King Georg would swear off other land claims in order to be on the good side of the international community. However, I decided to have Prussia annex the territory around the same time they annexed (or reannexed) Pomerania from West Poland. I believe that it would be the only time Prussia would be able to regain control over the region, since that it would be disasterous for Prussia to take the region following the Pomeranian War (I've created an article for that by the way). I know that the German population of Kaliningrad (Königsberg) was expelled or murdered following the Second World War, but the same thing happened in Pomerania and Prussia still retook the region. Besides, Prussia would not likely be the first country to want Kaliningrad, the Baltic states and East Poland would not likely trust a Communist Russian state on their doorstep after years of Soviet domination, and Prussia would have to act before the other states try to gain hold over the territory. I know that it would be contridictory to the continuity, but I was just trying to fit Kaliningrad into the timeline perfectly.
- Hello, Oerwinde. DasBull$ picked an unfortunate time to start writing for 1983DD, since nobody except you was paying any attention. The timeline is slowly waking up again, and we're looking through these old proposals. I'd like to graduate King Georg but suggest one change to it: rewriting the section on his recent rounds of diplomacy, to say that they have not been 100% effective. I think it's unrealistic to think that one king was able to charm his way out of all his country's past atrocities (which no doubt reminded people in Poland, Denmark and Norway of even earlier atrocities committed by other Germans). I believe it's fair to say that Georg has brought Prussia into the community of respectable nations, convinced them that Prussia has turned its back on that dark chapter - but not that he has completely erased all tensions with everybody. I think the Nordic Union especially doesn't quite trust him.
- I'm reaching out to you because DasBull$ has gone completely inactive in the 2 years since he wrote this article, and I'd like to ask permission from you to make this small change before graduating it to canon. If I don't hear from you in a week or so, I'll go ahead and change it. Benkarnell (talk) 17:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to adopt your article to update it among the 1983:Doomsday timeline (exactly like seen in my previous unauthorized edit of the article i want to adopt: China (1983: Doomsday) . May i have the right to do so? Thanks in advance.
Request for Deletion.
I would like to delete the list of NABC stations in Indiana . It will be no longer considered canon.
I hear you like star wars
Adopting the Prussia article (1983: Doomsday)
G'Day. I'm interested in adopting the Kingdom of Prussia (1983: Doomsday) article and putting it through a partial rewrite, updating it for the 2010s and 20s, giving it more nuance and depth (more info on culture, political parties and industry), while also keeping much what you wrote (Polish-Prussian War, Treaty of Wolfsburg, etc).
Korea being radically changed
I wanted to inform you that there are discussions going on by people wanting to radically change your 1983:DD page of Korea, I think you should come and defend it in the main talk page. SigmaHero045 (talk) 16:53, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello Oerwinde, just popping by to request a few page adoptions from you. There have been some sweeping changes to DD1983 of late that have not had a big picture approach that is necessary. To combat this i am hoping to become caretaker of the region of china and her articles. With me at the helm im hoping that people will continue to update china but in a way that considers all the neighbouring states that may need to be considered. In effect this would mean I am requesting adoptions from many people. You were that last significant editor of Jiangsu. I hope to hear back from you but otherwise thankyou for the amazing foundation you have built with your work.
Hello Oerwinde, I'd like to request permission to formally adopt Astoria in the 1983 Doomsday timeline. I think that by the 2020's, the USA would probably be making many overtures to Astoria to join the Union. The US would want the increased access to Pacific Ocean ports and the greater ability to participate in the Oceanic Organization, as well as access to Astoria's well-developed military arms industry (which dovetails with the already-canonical rearmament going on in the 2020's US military). The US government would probably sweeten the deal for the Astorian residents by offering to make Astoria the beginning/end of several new railroad lines to massively boost the local economy. GryffindorKrypton (talk) 02:10, 31 May 2022 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton