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We are a community for creating fictional alternative histories. We hope you will feel at home here and wish you good luck contributing to our ever-growing collection of timelines.
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- 1 Vandalism
- 2 Re:Understand
- 3 Response: Apologies
- 4 Editing Articles Without Permission
- 5 Article Adoptions and Outburts
- 6 Re:Doomsday Edits
- 7 Re: Doomsday Template
- 8 Re: Reforms
- 9 Having the right to canonize Susquehanna
- 10 Doomsday Conspiracy Theories
- 11 Why I like Allie DeBerry
- 12 Why I want Allie to survive in Doomsday
- 13 Shutdown quuestion
- 14 Here's why I want Allie on Doomsday
- 15 1983 Doomsday articles
- 16 Question
- 17 Municipal States of the Pacific
- 18 I can explain
- 19 I'm sorry for my behavior
- 20 1983DD Chinese survivor states
- 21 Republic of Jefferson
- 22 1989 War
- 23 I'm really sorry about the way that I acted
- 24 I'm sorry I got on your nerves
- 25 Fourth English Civil War
- 26 Response
- 27 Re: Leicester
- 28 New Britain (1983)
- 29 New users
- 30 Huguang-Zhongyuan
- 31 Eurovision
- 32 Westboro
- 33 Vandalism
- 34 British events in 1983dd
- 35 Re:Adoption
- 36 membership
- 37 Template
- 38 British Isles in DD
Hi! Welcome to the wiki!
I'm sorry to be so mean, but you're vandalizing these DD pages you're editing. I must ask you to desist. I will rollback all edits you have done. Do ask around if you need help.
21:31, January 5, 2018 (UTC)
First off, my primary duty as an admin it to evaluate and remove files as need be. Your file was not being used on any article/talk page for over 24 hours (this is justification for removal).
Secondly, it appears the caretakers of the article in question are inactive at the moment. Unless you have their permission, the article can't be edited or expanded upon. Unfortunately, it already appears you've already did just that back in January. This is classified as vandalism and why another admin reverted your contributions.
For the time being, the article in question is off limits. You are more than welcome to re-upload your file, so long as you are using it. Sorry to say, but there is nothing more I can add other than remove unauthorized edits on the Doomsday timeline. -- NuclearVacuum 02:30, February 26, 2018 (UTC)
- In the future, please refrain from starting new conversations when continuing a previous one.
- As for your image being used, it sounds like a glitch in the system. Clearly, it wasn't registering. For that, I do apologize.
- As mentioned previously, you are 100% more than welcome to re-upload the file. -- NuclearVacuum 01:08, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
Believe I've found out why your file wasn't showing up. You didn't follow the proper Wiki code when adding the file to the talk page. You can't simply add a hotlink to an article, you need to add the wiki code. An example would be:
No problem, m8. I started the same way, don't worry. It's your first action, you had no way of knowing. Don't worry too much.
Happy to see you around!
07:05, April 4, 2018 (UTC)
Editing Articles Without Permission
You can't be expanding upon articles which you are not the caretaker of, or don't have permission to edit. Typo corrections and adding categories are fine, but don't expand or rename content.
I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with a random user coming and editing your articles. Please be considerate towards others.
Article Adoptions and Outburts
Aside from not following the second rule of our adoption policy (in which you leave a note on the article/template's talk page for community feedback), you have indeed been following requirements to adopt the template. Please leave said message on the template's talk page and feel free to make your edits (you have no objections from me).
You are only allowed to edit the template itself. Not the articles associated with it.
Also, please be aware that as part of my duties to see that you followed the adoption rules, I came across your three outbursts against me.
- "I'm not a unempathic vulgar troll, i just tought by mistake that if i didn't CREATE any NEW stuff, it would be alright and i would have complied to objections of the anonymous caretakers if they didn't agree"
This kind of behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
My job as an admin is to assure all users follow site rules and etiquette. You expanded upon articles that weren't yours nor had permission to edit.
I'm deeply sorry that I've upset you. Your actions were not malice by any means (just misguided). I understand you wish to improve and revitalize the Doomsday timeline and I have no issue with you trying to do so (provided you follow site etiquette).
Instead, you attempt to "hijack" the timeline and when you didn't get your way, you lash out at the admin doing their job. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. If any of these actions continue, you will not last here.
My gosh what was wrong with me back then (for that third outburst)? I'm so sorry dude! It wasn't your fault, i was just frustrated at the wrong time for (with what i've tought back then) being labelled without a say as a type of internet users i just don't like : trolls. You don't have to work on anything (you've already endured me WAY more that you should have, at your place i would have just straight up banned me for good) for me. I've already followed your suggestions for the second step of adoption (also what a mistake i've made on the title of the article, i was meaning all along the USACanada83 template but i guess i was looking at the Aroostook article and that distracted me). You don't have anything to be sorry for.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:02, May 27, 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I have reverted their edits made to others articles and marked their own article as a proposal. I have messaged them about the editorial guidelines and informed them to contact you if they have any questions.
Re: Doomsday Template
Hello SigmaHero045! In response to the message you left on my talk page, thank you so much for letting me adopt Spain and for helping to bring 1983: Doomsday back to life.
I read your blog post and I agree with a lot of points you make. Many articles that have been widely accepted have been simply left as proposals for nearly a decade (one example I can think of is that of the Beatles in this timeline), and I think a lot of those should be welcomed in.
As for Mrs Thatcher, yes she did indeed pass away in 2013, so in a current setting (as it is a live timeline currently ongoing) she can't be the one to reunify the English successor states. However, there is a candidate who could, and a few users have mentioned his charisma in this timeline: Edward Poll, head of the OBN. The real-life Edward Poll is actually a real British Conservative politician from that sort of Woodbridge area.
I'm absolutely 100% cool with you adopting the French Southern Territories and Canada. This now will definitely mark a new era for this timeline, as you said, a renaissance. Cheers!
p.s. Do you agree with Carlos Javier being crowned King of Spain and changing the article name from Republic of Spain to Kingdom of Spain? Just to confirm with you now that you're the chief!
Having the right to canonize Susquehanna
I do not have an issue going to canonize it, however my page has been rejected multiple times for official canonization. Several other users with nations in the area do reference my article on their canon countries (Reading and North Pennsylvania both do, I believe).
Thanks and Best Regards
Doomsday Conspiracy Theories
I hope I'm posting this reply in the right place - for some reason it wouldn't let me reply directly to the message you sent me about the Doomsday Conspiracy Theories.
Anyway, I'm glad you like the article. With regards to the outlandish alien conspiracy theories I might add a section about that. I will definitely add a section about the psychological effects of Doomsday, because that's a very interesting idea I hadn't thought about before. Also, do you know when this article might become an actual article, instead of just a proposal? I've added two articles to the proposals now and one has been there for a few months at least.
Yes you posted at the right place (altough I wonder why it couldn't let you add your post at the talk page there). I'm glad too you liked my ideas. I always thought timelines on this wiki focused too much on the geopolitical, big scale events and not enough on ordinary people, what they live in everyday life there. It's a crucial part of what makes these timelines believable and interesting, making you feel how you would be in such circonstances and places.
Yes I do know when your articles could be canon. According to the Editorial Guidelines you can find at the main page of the timeline, you simply need to post a thread about each of them in the talk page section of the 1983:Doomsday timeline. There, you need to face different criticisms that could come up and use them to improve the realism of your articles. After fixing your articles to the point no one objects anymore, you make in the same threads a post demanding the authorization to canonize them and if no one objects to that for at least a week, you can remove the label and integrate it into fitting categories and templates (with proper authorization-adoption for the templates, see the section of the guidelines concerning adoption of articles/templates).
Have a nice day, I'm free to answer any questions and provide ideas.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 16:37, March 22, 2020 (UTC)
Why I like Allie DeBerry
Iluv80s (talk) 14:56, March 22, 2020 (UTC)I like Allie DeBerry becuase she is my friend. Becuase of that, I like putting her in my timelines. I put her in the Doomsday timeline to make it less depressing. In Superpowers I just got carried away and made her a Roman Emperor
Okay, where do I start? First of all, the fact you like her is not the problem here. Secondly, every edit you make on this wiki should be reasoned and well thought out. The fact you yourself mentionned, "being carried away", should ring a bell on something wrong here. This timeline is rational, not impulsive. Finally, the rules on this timeline are clear here and I demand you respect them out of fairness for everyone else. Want to add her? Sure you can (if you did proper research and logic as to where this is all going), but do it accordingly with the rules.
Hope I'm now understood.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 16:20, March 22, 2020 (UTC)
I now undestand why I can't put Allie in other timelines besides my own without doing research
Glad you came to realize your mistakes. As for your timeline...well...don't want to be mean but to be frank, the problem is it's quite personal and also...a bit cringy (sorry but I've got to be honest). You got an interesting premise for your timeline (even if I don't think it would be realistic to create such chaos in 2009, considering the vitality of the internet in society only became a thing starting in the early 2010s. Same for large-scale cyberweapons) but it goes...weird after that. I can see that it's sort of a personal universe project for you (certain games gets renowned, a singer you love becoming insanely influencial...you get what I mean) but, being made out of a personal vision, makes it harder for others to follow as its based on what you like, harder to follow that vision because they're not you. Also, your timeline does not have a clear logic that would justify why events in your timeline became the way they are (and would actually allow others, with that logic in mind, to predict how the timeline would go and what could fit in it or not, what efforts could they do): it goes all over the place and that sort of timeline isn't the best to attract people who would otherwise be very willing to participate in your timeline. So I've got a few tips to help you build a community around your timeline.
1- Fully assume your timeline being a timeline that can be taken seriously or fully assume for it the role of a joke timeline (wich isn't a bad thing), no inbetween, make it clear in the way your main page presents the timeline as one or the other. The best way to do this is in how it is written wich, by a simple read, will make the viewer know the wanted tone and be interested to participate as a result, knowing what they are getting into.
2- Make your timeline professional looking, create templates, make paragraphs and categories. Have proper english without errors in your articles so you show to others you're ready to go the extra mile for your timeline and put in it a lot of effort. This will make other users more thrilled to join in if they know you'll be there to work along.
3- Make your timeline interesting, fully take all the potential it can have. Add context, make it unique and captivating. Show that your timeline have a justified reason to exist. Create a universe that other people would love to hear more about (and thus care about) and they'll be there with you to make it grow.
Have a nice day
SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:23, March 23, 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. Again, sorry I kept perseverating about Allie on the Doomsday timeline. I'll work harder on that. So you're saying that I should make it less personal and more realistic. Got it. But I'll keep the Allie DeBerry thing.
These tips were for your 2009: Shutdown timeline as you requested me help in helping you see how to have other users participate in your timeline. But it seems these apply also for your DD article as well.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:46, March 23, 2020 (UTC)
what are some things you think I should take out (not allie deberry though)
Why I want Allie to survive in Doomsday
She's very oimportant to me and to have er die would be a horror show. thats why im having her parents move to australia, so she can be alive
Sigh...okay I'll repeat. The fact you like her is NOT the problem here. The problem is that you can't just bend reality before the time divergence (here, the top secret incident on the 26th of September 1983 that was kept secret from the public for decades) however you want to fit into your narrative. There's strict rules of realism to obey here and you violate them without second thought. I will say however, you did the right thing by removing references to Michael Jackson moving to Australia before Doomsday (because that have no basis on reality whatsoever). I've been very patient with you and even gave a lot of my time to write tips for you to upgrade your timeline and be honestly happy here. I just want you to have fun fairly here as I'm sure you have interesting new ideas. Now, I'm serious. I give you a warning to stop violating editorial guidelines and stop fainting the realism rules that are law in the 1983:DD timeline as inexistant. Follow my post on the main talk page for more details that you must listen.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:22, March 23, 2020 (UTC)
If you actually read the post I made in the talk page, you'll see that I point too many MANY factors that show Allie Deberry herself just can't work. Prove me wrong over the points I made in the talk page first and we'll see afterwards. For now, it's a no. And no, your personal affection for her is not in itself a reason that justifies her existence in the timeline. Ps. Stop posting the same thing in more than one place, you're confusing me. SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:12, March 24, 2020 (UTC) Which talk pagge did you use Iluv80s (talk) 00:24, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
Ugh, the 1983: Doomsday talk page one. This one .
SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:27, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
Here's why I want Allie on Doomsday
Doomsday really depressing and Allie helps me cope. The 80s are one of my favorite things besides allie and they get ruined. i at least want allie. what if i just make her parents Aussie and that fixes everything?
No you can't. The timeline is made that way and you can't change it to fit your feelings. If you find 1983: Doomsday depressing, I'll kindly suggest you go to another timeline (like Russian America for instance, just don't bring Allie DeBerry in okay? Else you'll be in trouble there or anywhere else you didn't create yourself in this wiki). I was writing a proper answer in the talk page so please stop a moment posting tons of things and wait to read my answer before commentating again ok?
SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:31, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
So what is your decision now? Sorry if i lost patience a bit but this is still justified. Enough is enough.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:56, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
Hey, about the idea you had about reunifying the UK after a final decisive war between the successor states and the OBN led by Mr. Poll, just thought now that we're in lockdown if you have time we could finally start this chapter? Hope all is well over there! MrWoodward (talk) 12:33, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
What's a better timeline to put Allie than Doomsday?
I'm coming MrWoodward to your talkpage in a moment as soon as I'm done with Iluv80s, I'm excited to start this up.
Now....Iluv80s...listen carefully to me cause I'm not answering anymore to your questions after that (you spammed me enough posts already, it's enough): your obsession with Allie DeBerry is driving everyone nuts (including Icelandicwriters) here and it will drive everyone nuts elsewhere. Outside your personal timelines (like 2009: Shutdown), there are no timeline where she would fit in as far as I'm concerned, sorry. You'll get in trouble everywhere else other than your personal timelines, just like in the Superpowers timeline, just like here. Unless your suggestion get's approved by the community of said timeline, it's a no-no everywhere. Now, hope you now realize you can't just impose a cheesy teenager drama actress everywhere against others will. Goodbye, good luck. Please ask your questions to someone else, I'm tired of all of this. If you don't want to pursue getting your article canonized, please delete it.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:17, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
1983 Doomsday articles
I just noticed you responding to some of my adoption requests. I'm glad to get some guidance!
I hope I've been doing this correctly; to adopt an article do we attempt to contact the most recent author by putting a post on the article's Talk page (that's what I've been attempting so far)?
For the article on the American Provisional Administration, I was thinking of adding some details such as likely personnel (I'm going to do some further research, but I'd assume that many members of HW Bush's OTL inner circle would probably comprise the high level positions). I was also hoping to adopt American Comics to add some ideas for the 1983DD-verse comic book fiction. If you look on my contributions page, so far I've also put messages on the Talk pages for the United States, Delmarva, Joplin, and the Quad Cities. Have I been following the correct procedure so far, or is there a way for me to pinpoint a specific person to contact for each one?
I could also use some help on a proposal I just created. I added a proposal page for CARICOM, which in OTL is a sort of regional cooperation group in the Caribbean that was founded back in the 70's. My basic idea was that it became effectively defunct after Doomsday but never officially disbanded, and that after the Caribbean region stabilized, various officials would began floating the idea of reaffirming the organization during the 2010s. My proposal has the reaffirmation officially happen in 2020 by the various successor states in the Caribbean.
Thank you for reaching out and offering some guidance. I'm genuinely excited about contributing to this timeline!
Love to be of a helping hand! Anyway, for the adoption process you need to demand adoption to the user who created the page (so the one who first edited it, easy to track out by checking the history section behind each article) IF the most recent signifiant contributor have not edited for three months over this article. In the case of the Outer Lands, NuclearVacuum, creator of it and very important admin around the wiki, even if no one edited it in a long time, refused to let you adopt it and had the right to do so. As long as you do the demand of adoption directly to the creator AND do the adoption request on the talk page of the articles like you already did great....you're free to go as long as no one objects to your changes, in such case you'll need to create consensus with other users and go with that.
With such dedication to research, it was a breath of fresh air to hear your goal, you're exactly the type of user this timeline needs. Will be happy to support you and approve your efforts. Don't forget however to be realistic and to not to create contradictions with other articles (it could surprise you how many canon articles you might not be aware of, I surely was). Try to put yourself at the place of these people and imagine how it feels like. I always say timelines in this wiki don't give enough attention to social and cultural factors behind historical events and so I'd be personally happy to see you not forgot about those when relevant, just a suggestion though.
Feel free to ask any questions when'll you need. This wiki veteran is at your service.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:46, April 1, 2020 (UTC)
So I just left messages for the creators of those pages, in addition to the ones I already left on the talk pages for the articles themselves. So if I'm reading them correctly, the Editorial Guidelines say to wait a week, and if nobody objects by then I'm free to adopt? If that happens, is there another step before I begin writing?
Thanks for the compliment! History's a huge passion of mine, and I love to delve into the details! For the APA, I was thinking that if any of the high level officials seem interesting enough, they could eventually get their own bios in the proposal section, if a realistic and interesting post-DD bio can be thought of.
I completely agree that it'd be great to explore more of the social/cultural side of the post-DD. I had some ideas in that regard too. One idea of mine is to create an article about some sort of survey taken among various American survivor communites--perhaps by scouts from the League of Nations or CRUSA or the new USA or maybe some well-organized journalists--that produces a report about generational differences between the survivors of the pre-Doomsday world and the younger generations that have been born since DD. I was also thinking of creating a proposal for a rebooted James Bond franchise that exists as a series of novels and comic books published from New Britain, similar to how the already-canonical American Comics revived US superhero characters and published them from the ANZC territories.
I think there's still a lot of unexplored story territory here that I'd love to get into! Thanks so much for the support and guidance! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 02:28, April 2, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton
Well I would have liked to actually know what you were intending to do with each page. Like, you nearly adopted the entire eastern half of the Unites States. What is your goal? What are you planning to change for each of them? That's because you clearly want to add new canonical stuff rather than adding existing canon from other pages and that demand you explain in advance what you're planning to change. That's one critic I have with your adoption posts: you didn't explain your intentions to the creators or the people in the talk page (unless I'm mistaken) in advance, intentions that could have pushed these creators to say no. The other step is that: say what you want to add to all these articles and I'll review it.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:45, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying, and I apologize if I was unclear. The creators for several of the pages have gotten back to me recently. Zack has offered to work together on Joplin, Stillwater, Hugo, and Hot Springs, and I've accepted his offer. We've started bouncing some ideas around on each other's talk pages. Right now we're talking about having some of the communities in the Mississippi River basin (particularly in Oklahoma, southern Missouri, and Arkansas) consolidate into larger units such as a reunified Oklahoma, some of the communities possibily joining the Kentucky Commonwealth, etc. Zack suggested that some of the communities might join the US at some point.
For George HW Bush, I'm thinking that since his death in OTL was of natural causes, he'd probably die around the same time in this timeline. I was thinking of adding that, but also adding some other possible activities between 2009 (the last time given in his article) and his death in 2018, such as dealing with the death of First Lady Barbara Bush (which, again, I'd assume would be around the same time as OTL due to being from natural causes). For the APA, I'm hoping to add some details to its activities from the late 80's through '95, and add in some likely staff members based on Bush's real life inner circle. I was also hoping to use the APA page to discuss the fate of the surviving members of the US Congress because of an idea tying in with Delmarva: For Delmarva, I saw an idea from the Talk Page where some contributors floated the idea of Joe Biden as a leader there. I know he was in Congress in 1983, and the original page mentions most of Congress escaping DC to the Greenbrier facility but leaves off what happens there. My idea was that if we can have Biden be one of the surviving Congressmen at the Greenbrier, he eventually makes his way back to Delmarva and becomes a leader there.
For American Comics, I'm brainstorming some ideas of what the comic book fiction in this world could be like, on top of what's already there. Maybe have some comic stories where the surviving superheroes are written to deal with some survivors' guit for surviving while much of the world did not. Maybe add some discussion of how American Comics' publications might inspire further fiction in the 1983DD world? Again, my idea of New British investors publishing comic books and novels based on James Bond could be framed as a reaction to the already-canon success of American Comics.
SouthWriter also got back to me as well and has allowed me to adopt Hannibal. I'm thinking of having Hannibal and the Quad Cities join the new US and become a major port area for trade along the Mississippi River. I'm picturing a sort of Mark Twain-ish image of steamboats and merchants, that sort of thing. SouthWriter has opted to hold onto ownership of Neonotia but has offered me a chance to continue to update its timeline if I run the ideas by him first, which I've accepted. In particular, I'm interested in picking up a story thread from his last entry, where Jimmy Carter becomes Neonotia's ambassador to the other survivor communities in North America. I've also discussed with SouthWriter the idea of picking up some ideas he and other contributors had for Bill Clinton (that discussion was from the Arkansas talk page). I think most of the ideas they discussed there would still fit into existing canon, and SouthWriter has encouraged me to have a go at writing a story for Clinton based on that.
I'm still waiting for a bit on the Clinton part though, because I'd imagine his story would tie in with Hot Springs, and I want to reach consensus with Zack about what happens there first, before I move ahead with Clinton's story.
Thanks again for reaching out and helping to guide me through this process. I really appreciate all the advice and ideas. I added in some of your ideas for the CARICOM page earlier today as well. I'm looking to add some detials about the post-DD culture and diplomacy in the Caribbean, specificaly growing economic cooperation between many of the nations there, though I'm interested in implementing Arstarpool's idea for moving his creation--the USAR--closer to the mainland US politically, like he discussed in its Talk page. Looking forward to continuing to collaborate! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 21:39, April 8, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton
You can do that yourself. Even better, you can just edit your articles to fit your rebuild story. Thank you.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:52, May 16, 2020 (UTC)
Municipal States of the Pacific
I am sorry I didn't mean to violate protocol when I made my change to the Municipal States of the Pacific page and when I made my Republic of Jefferson page. I thought I had acted in good faith I made my changes. I left an adoption request for the municipal back in nonmember 2018 on the Municipal State talk page . Here's a link https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Municipal_States_of_the_Pacific_(1983:_Doomsday).My post is at the very bottom I got distracted and forgot that I made the request. A few weeks ago I decided to adopt the municipal states only to discovered that I already made the request and forgot about it. I then told nuclear vacuum about my ideas for the municipal states because I because I thought he took over the position 1983 Doomsday head moderator from Lordgannon because he deleted an edit I made to the WCBR News Hour page. Here's a link to my post. https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:NuclearVacuum#1983_Doomsday. It is number 18 in the table of contents. Nuclear vacuum said that he wasn't in charge of 1983 Doomsday. Here is a link to his response,https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Goldwind1. It is number 42 in the table of contents .I had no idea who else could be in charge so I decided to make changes and hope for the best. When I finished Republic of Jefferson page I left a request for graduation on it's talk page. Here is a link https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Republic_of_Jefferson_(1983:_Doomsday). I also left a request on the 1983 doomsday main talk page. I forgot to sign and date my post but the revision history page says I did it on may 10th. Here a link to the revision history page https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:1983:_Doomsday?action=history I thought I only had to wait a week for the article to be graduated. Nobody complained during the week so I deleted my proposal template on the 20th. Any way I didn't mean to break the break the rules. If you if you insist I will delete my changes to the Municipal States of the Pacific the Republic of Jefferson page. However I want a chance to defend my work. I think have a few agreements I can make to defend my changes to the Municipal states of the Pacific the Republic of Jefferson pag If you are not the head moderator for the 1983 Doomsday timeline, will please tell me who he or she is so I can make case for my work becoming cannon.
There's no such thing in this timeline as a head admin individual: it's a collective process. Since it's me who objected to your big changes, it's to me you must make your case. I'm sure it was out of goodwill but still. Tell your arguments in the talk page section for everyone to see and comment (GryffindorKrypton told you that too in your talk page). Also don't forget to sign your posts for conveniance (the little "signature" button in the edit command section). I too have arguments.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:32, May 21, 2020 (UTC)
I placed my arguments on the Repuplic of Jefferson talk page. Is that where you wanted me to post the information
No, read again what I said: it's on the Jefferson section of THE 1983:Doomsday talk page: this one . You forgot AGAIN to sign your posts.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:50, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
How long should I wait before I take the proposal template off my republic of jefferson page
Also I am thinking of adopting the imperial state of Santa Cruz. I hear they occasionally raided the MSP for slaves. Do you like the idea of Santa Cruz raiding the he California republic during 2015. This turns out to be a mistake because California had just Joined the North American Union. The North American union is quick to crush Santa Cruz. Should a new independent Democratic Santa Cruz be set up idemianlty after the war or should Santa Cruz be administered by a transitional North American Union mandate. A third option is that Santa Cruz is abosered by the Calafornia Republic
Follow the Editorial Guidelines of the timeline regarding canonizations. It's not to me you should do your request but to the author of the Santa Cruz page. California is not part of the North American Union and is far away from it. The North American Union, from what I remember, don't have authority to put in place such mandates. And Santa Cruz doesn't have an expansionist policy, being politically isolationist so it doesn't make sense to begin with. You forgot yet again to sign your post .
SigmaHero045 (talk) 19:59, June 12, 2020 (UTC)
The editorial page dosn't say how long to wait until an article is graduated. It only says you can remove the proposal template after a certain time. It dosn't say how long that cetain time is.
I can explain
Too late. You had SO many chances to explain yourself BEFORE doing your unauthorized edits. Look, I've been extremely patient with you but enough is enough. You keep failing to understand the very basics of how the rules of this timeline works, harassing me constantly with unrealistic changes. Everything used to be alright, you had your timeline to do your own thing but you KEPT going back here doing unauthorized edits (or harrassing me for changes I clearly proved beyond any doubt or opinion wouldn't work). You only got yourself to blame. I did enough warnings to you. From now on, you'll have to explain yourself to the main admin NuclearVacuum who, like I do, don't like harassment or acts of sabotage.
I've just seen your excuses to NuclearVacuum...don't you remember the time you said the exact same thing to me? Hypocrite. I wish you well and hope you'll have a good introspection on your attitude before going back outside your timeline for your own good.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:21, May 26, 2020 (UTC)
Okay I get it. I'll stop
I'm sorry for my behavior
Well stop spamming me at least like I've already warned you about. That would be a good first step.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:35, May 26, 2020 (UTC)
1983DD Chinese survivor states
Hello Sigma, it's been a very busy several weeks, but I'm finally back on the wiki!
I saw that you left a message on my page about a Huguang-Zhongyuan page. I think you must be mistaken, I didn't create or work on any pages in China, perhaps you meant to message someone else?
That being said, however, I am almost ready to put forward some of my proposals to the Talk page for discussion soon, so I'm looking forward to doing that!
No no I was responding to Canuck2012 who was talking to you. No worry :)
Will be there for the moment you'll put them on the talk page.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:01, June 19, 2020 (UTC)
Hello Sigma! I've posted some proposals of mine on the Talk page proposal section. I hope you can take a look at them when you get a chance. Thanks! GryffindorKrypton (talk) 03:10, June 23, 2020 (UTC)GryffindorKrypton
Republic of Jefferson
I am sorry about removing the template for my Republic of Jefferson page. In retrospective I should have written second request for graduation for the Republic of Jefferson article instead of assuming that the first one was still active after I thought I thought I addressed all your concerns involving the both the Republic of Jefferson page and the Municipal Sates of the Pacific Page. I have already posted a second request for graduation in the Republic of Jefferson section on the 1983 Doomsday talk page earlier today. How long should I wait before I take the proposal template off my republic of Jefferson page.The editorial page doesn't say how long to wait until an article is graduated. It only says you can remove the proposal template after a certain time. It doesn't say how long that certain time is.
Fair enough. From memory it was about a week after no further point opposing all or parts of it was posted on the thread...as long as consensus is made in the request agreeing about its addition in its current state and the final say is a greenlit.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:29, June 27, 2020 (UTC)
I hope that you don't mind that Now that I got Jefferson graudated that I Ask GryffindorKrypton about having Jefferson join the new united states. He is the caretaker of the unites states page so I diffently need his apporval
It.s statehood for me can only be started to be negociated after 2018 and another election (not one by a landslide victory). Else I'm not approving because otherwise it would still be too soon. Don't forget to put a sign to your posts
SigmaHero045 (talk) 05:41, August 12, 2020 (UTC)
SO are you saying that negocations have to wait untill after the 2020 election to start or they can begin sometime in 2018 but have to wait untill the after 2020 elections to be finaizled. Would you think that july 4 2021 would be a good date for jefferson to join the new united states
I'm not talking about any US election but elections in Jefferson. There needs to realistically be another proper election in Jefferson before talks can even begin. It's good date beside that.
I have hit the wall with my 1989 war korea page. I hope you will asnwer the following questions because they will help me over the come the walll.
Do you think that South Korea would be able to evacuate congress form Seoul before the bomb hit or at at list be able to get member of congress to one of Seoul many nuclear bunker.
I like the idea of an otl North Korean dissent becoming president of united Korea. I got a list of 3 potential candidates. They are 1 Kang Chol-hwan (author of the Aquariums of Pyongyang) 2 Shin Dong-hyuk the only known prisoner to have successfully escaped from a "total-control zone" grade internment camp in North Korea. He was also born the camp) 3 Lee Soon-ok ( a former manager in a North Korean government office that distributed goods and materials who sent to a concentration camp as the result of a power struggle. . She received the Democracy Award from the non-profit organization National Endowment for Democracy in July 2003. Seul got nuke , the new captial of korea is Jeonju
Suwon south korea is the headquaters of Samsung elctronics. It is about 30 km form seoul. Do you think the city would could still be habitable or is it too close to seul. I think you didn't ask the best person to help you overcome your creative burnout. I have : 1. no proper knowledge of the region, it's economy in 1989 as well as its politics 2. no proper knowledge of the 1989 war events in general. The reasons I can't even start to make sense of the situation are the same ones that makes this whole timeline not making any sense to begin with. There's no trend to follow, no idea as to where it started from and why it logically went the way it did. I can't even make a consensus with myself over if this context would even allow a north korean dissident as a national leader (mind you that Shin Dong-hyuk was far from being a democratic activist in 1989 and as such events would have unfolded very differently for him).
Here's my tips to help you:
1. Please God, please fix that grammar. It's unreadable.
2. Have the canon within timeline flag in its infobox.
3. Bold of you assuming North Korea wouldn't have any bunkers. Kim Jong-ill litteraly grew up in one.
4. The people famous thanks to series of events that unfolded in our timeline wouldn't necessarily be famous in ours by the simple fact they unfolded differently.
5. Also bold of you assuming that only Seoul would be strike by nuclear weapons, for instance the United States have a military base in the DMZ (you know, the most militarized place on Earth even back then). The United States would definitely strike Pyongyang and other sites from Guam/Marshall Islands.
6. Kim ill-Sung would be alive, the fears of north koreans justified with US aggression, have on his side a good army. No easy-win scenario here.
7. Properly make research (outside wikipedia) about nuclear weapons and you'd see that Suwon's fate is entirely decided by the power in megatons of the nuke (if such power was avaible to the one responsible for the strike). The days of Samsung as a powerhouse international company are over if they don't straight up bankrupt due to unimaginable economic collapse and stop in trade.
8. Have a less biaised tone in the choice of words.
9. Remember that our 2010s South and North Korea aren't and never will equal this timeline's South and North Korea. Don't let current reality with our events be a justification for things to go certain ways. 10. SIGN your posts. Rules of the fandom are to be followed. That's the best I can do.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:40, August 28, 2020 (UTC)
I'm really sorry about the way that I acted
And this time I am sorry. I learned to not intrude in other people's timelines,, and to stay away from them if they bother me. Also I',m not into Allie anymore, I'm into Shakira. Iluv80s (talk) 02:51, July 22, 2020 (UTC)
Well, ok then. But remember that for me actions speak louders then empty words. So keep your word.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:54, July 22, 2020 (UTC)
Do you like how I moved on from Allie to Shakira?
I don't care, one obsession over the other doesn't make any big difference for me.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:19, August 3, 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry I got on your nerves
Fourth English Civil War
Hi SigmaHero! What do you think of the Edward Poll article so far? I followed your story you wrote but written in an encyclopedic manner. I made a page for the new war as well but I need help with it.
All the best.
It looks fine, the tone and how it flows nicely is wonderfully perfect. However don't include things from after the civil war like "the café testified many years after the civil war about how it all started", this didn't happen yet chronologically so removing any mention that isn't in their strict present is necessary. Also, the independists of the various countries (those that don't want any reunification whatsoever) are not really given a proper voice. In fact, the south of England is pretty republican from what I've read so a "large vocal group for Poll" there is going against canon.
There is a big objection that I have: it would be impossible for the sports hall to be called "Sir David Wallace" because David Wallace never became vice-chancellor of the university in this timeline (having done so in 1994 so incompatible with the historic change of Doomsday). He was in fact part of the Edinburgh University at that time (1983) so, given the circumstances, it is too much unlikely that he would come to Loughborough or even left the region of Edinburgh. Doing otherwise would be unrealistic.
Outside of those, it's great. Don't forget to add the role of New London in your Fourth English Civil War and the neutrality of the Celtic Union. And not either the rogue third side of Matlock and others as discussed in the main talk page. Could you also briefly add what previous civil wars in English history it follows for the uninitiated?
Good job so far.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:47, September 18, 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice! Do you agree with the title Fourth English Civil War? Or do you think "British Civil War" would be more appropriate, given the participation of non-English people in the conflict?
The first and second English Civil Wars were fought in the 1640s, between King Charles I's Cavaliers and Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads. Cromwell won, cut off Charles I's head and ruled England as a republican dictator. The deceased king's son Charles II tried to fight Cromwell after his father was beheaded, in the Third Civil war, but it didn't last long and there was little success. So if we're talking about an "English" civil war for this one, this would (historically speaking) be the 4th.
What did you respond? I didn't see anything, for real. I can't find your answer. SigmaHero045 (talk) 02:47, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't see this. It's right below both comments, this section. I apologized to you, so I feel bad that you didn't see it. Benkarnell (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
I have not seen any proof of any correct canonization. I have asked for said proof, and have received none. The page is therefore, still a proposal until I see proof of the opposite. There was no mod for Doomsday when this supposed canonisation happened, and the current mods are Benkarnell and I.
08:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
You asked it to who exactly? Not once in the Editorial Guidelines is the term "admin" "mod" or something similar mentionned. Only "the group" is mentionned and that means everyone. In fact, I'll do better then that I'll do a step by step analysis of the graduation process to show you, directly quoting the Editorial Guidelines, how it went.
"Tagging the page as a proposal indicates that the entire group has not yet had a chance to discuss, debate, and possibly recommend changes to it." This is how it started, Nay Mate Woody wasn't aware of the graduation process so I talked about it to NuclearVacuum who reminded him of what it was (and even said to him to go to me for help). Once the proposal tag was put into place, debate and suggestions to upgrade it were actually done. There was me, BroccotropolisGov, Nay Mate Woody, MrWoodward, Hong Xiuquan and FiteOwl(so back then that was almost everyone still active on the timeline, so pretty much representative of "the group"). And debate there was, I especially was no easy to please critic. But Leicester evolved as a result and as such solved problems that could be had with it. It is true it spilled into the talk page of Leicester and not just the main talk page but still, as you can see, everyone was following each other so no one missed anything there.
"If you feel your article is ready to be recognized as canon, then say so on Talk:1983: Doomsday." Following all that heated conversation, everything finally felt fine for some users so one remade a proposal for it to become canon if no one objected.
"If nobody raises any objections to your page, you can remove the Proposal tag after a certain amount of time - we have started to call this process "graduation". After that, the page will be considered a part of the Doomsday canon." No one in two weeks objected to its canonization (and you can't say there was no one, we were like 6 people), in fact some explicitely gave support to it, saying it had no problem anymore. And two weeks later, well it became canon as stated in the very guidelines! It played by the rules. It's unfair to say otherwise.
Still not convinced? Benkarnell agreed recently with the two-weeks deadline. It was about the graduation of Susquehanna and after explaining all the steps it went through, he agreed I did it fair and square. And fun fact, it was the same procedure (the one of the Editorial Guideline) that was used for Leicester.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello? Are you still there? SigmaHero045 (talk) 18:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
The issue is the following. The article edited and added to the lore of articles that the writer didn't control nor had the right to write about. In this case it was Newolland. As not the owner of Newolland, you cannot unilaterally decide what happened in Newolland without asking the Newolland owner or adopting Newolland. I have checked, no such adoption happened.20:05, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
New Britain (1983)
I bleive there has been an unathoritzed edit of the new britain page. I can find no record of the the person who made the update adopting new biritan
It was just english mistakes fixes and Benkarnell doing maintenance. Nothing wrong to see here. SigmaHero045 (talk) 04:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Hey, please don't throw around words like "sabotage" at new users who don't know their way around the project. Not knowing the Editorial Guidelines is not "sabotage" or anything close to it, and accusations like that can be very discouraging. Benkarnell (talk) 15:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Oh okay then. It's just it was why I got years ago for similar actions when I started. Thought it was ok to do the same thing. But you're right. SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Maybe it's time to dust off Template:Welcome83. We used to post that whenever someone new came to the project. Enough people are looking around that I think it would be useful again. And probably would have been more helpful than the shoddy treatment you received, too. Benkarnell (talk) 01:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
I think so, but how does it work exactly? You edit something on the timeline and you receive this in your talk page? SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, if you notice someone new who has edited a Doomsday page or made a proposal, you leave it on their user talk page. Benkarnell (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi, thank you for helping me earlier this month. I noticed that the article Huguang-Zhongyuan (1983: Doomsday) hasn't been edited for more than three months, so I figured I'd contact the owner of the article. However, I noticed a construction template on the article. Are you planning to update the article in the future? If not, then I am thinking of adopting it. Cheers! Firestarthegodcat (talk) 06:29, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't know. What would you want to do with it exactly? Technically yes, the same procedure applies even when there's a construction template. I'm not aware of any project to update it. Do you have knowledge of the region, its culture...because one of the strenghts in Doomsday is the emphasis on realism and not just being another map game where only leaders, borders, flags and wars matters (looking at you, 1989:War, where it doesn't even seem like there was a freaking nuclear war). Social mindsets can very realistically change the outcourse in a region so it's important to know about everyday peoples lifes. If something happens, there are reasons that justify why that happens.
I'm sure you know what you're doing all factors considered, I just want to put you to the test in a friendly way (and get to know the beauty of this specific timeline). I'm also genuinely curious about what you'll do with Huguang.
Have a nice day SigmaHero045 (talk) 03:11, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, from the "Culture section of the article it states that they promote "growth of religious movements." Also, they have many allies in China, so if they can't beat the Dragon State (1983: Doomsday) by themselves, which I am planning on making them annex, they can call on their allies for help. Also, depending on their relations with Taiwan (1983: Doomsday), they would probably fight over Nanchang (1983: Doomsday) with Taiwan. Firestarthegodcat (talk) 03:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Hey, lately I've been going through Category:Proposals (1983: Doomsday) - it was at over 200! Now down to 150. Most of what's in there was very short, low-effort pages by people who contributed one thing years ago and then disappeared. Anything that has more than that, I've been adding to the talk page. I was going to do the same with Eurovision Song Contest (1983: Doomsday) because it seems unrealistic and the creator hasn't been here in years. But on the talk page you expressed an interest in it. Would you want to work on the proposal? Otherwise I'll put it with the other obsolete pages. Benkarnell (talk) 00:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Hello there, thank you very much for asking me this. Yes I'd definitely like to contribute to it. Just leave it to me! You'll have to wait a few days however to give me time to finish my college exams (hence why I wasn't very active these days), else I couldn't find enough time and mind energy dedicated to it. If that's fine, then tell me, what makes it unrealistic for you? I need to know so I can correct those problems (I haven't look at the page for years so I don't remember any of the problems it could have).
This will be fun! SigmaHero045 (talk) 00:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Lordganon's comments on the talk page - except that I think they would want to keep the Eurovision name. But the story ought to reflect the fact that the world is less globalized and interconnected, and that there's way less infrastructure to support things like that. So more radio than TV, generally weaker systems for moving people around within Europe, less hoopla generally. And yes probably no Israel. My other objection is the logo. I'm generally against using anything from real life that came about after the point of divergence. And the logos that are posted are pretty low quality, anyway. Benkarnell (talk) 21:47, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I tried to discuss it at Talk:1983: Doomsday, it was there for about a month and a half. But I also meant to make a note on the specific talk page, I'll continue the discussion there. Benkarnell (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the help combating this vandalism, however, you can stop undoing it for now, since when multiple people edit a page it makes it so that I can't use rollback to undo it. Thanks, Vandenhoek (talk) 21:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
British events in 1983dd
Hello again Sigma. So will you take over writing the Britain articles and getting them ready? If so I have some questions.
- Could I archive the discussions at Talk:1983: Doomsday? They're huge and make the page overall more difficult to navigate. I would put them in Talk: 1983: Doomsday/Politics6 for reference. But if Woodward isn't going to be involved and you're taking over, I don't think that it all has to be on that main page anymore.
- To what extent are you going to follow the suggestions by Lordganon and myself? I think the story is a good one, as long as it's kept within realistic lines. I see the conflict as one of "keep the status quo" versus "a bold new vision under a strongman leader" - much more than a conflict over the legitimate dynasty or anything like that. I see that angle as both more realistic and a lot more interesting, story-wise.
- And following from that, I agree with Lordganon that the British people off-island in Africa and so forth probably are unlikely to get involved, though the Celts might if things get really violent.
- It also might be interesting to think about how English people living in the Celtic ALliance react to all this. Probably some of them would be sympathetic to the idea of England Resurgent, and there could be implications for the Alliance's politics.
- How many pages exactly does this story affect? There's Edward Poll and Great British Civil War - any others?
Final note, I don't care at all how long this all will take. It was started a year ago as a "current event" type story, now it's receded into the past, and to me that's all perfectly OK. The important thing is that we get a story that enhances the timeline, however long that ends up taking. Benkarnell (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello there, I wasn't expecting this but sure, I'm ready to take a position of supervisor for the whole thing.
Yes you totally can archive all those conversations about the war, I'm fine with it. Well, as for your suggestions, I don't really remember them but if you want the emperor-side of the thing removed to simply have a power-thirsty dictator whose charisma mask a certain detachment from reality in front of his supporters (as with more conqueror figures), I agree with it. Playing with the fear of people in uncertain times in need of recomfort and feeling of safety (after two wars in Britain nontheless), nolstalgia of a utopianized pre-DD Britain, taping into hate from parts of the population against those remnants of the British Royalty on British soil running deep since the old UK «abandonned» them, the «us vs them narrative», use opportunist politicians in the south to his advantage, he definitely has the power to mobilize and get to himself unlimited amounts of power. That's how I see it.
As for the British in Africa, yeah, perhaps it's not equipped or advanced for an intercontinental invasion. But what could be realistic is that the conflict DO make quite an intensive impression amongst the populace WANTING for this to happen and the government in place has to manage that pressure for doing something they clearly can't do, causing various levels of anger in the population, changing with how the debate turns out with the events of the war. That could be interesting. What also could be interesting would be self-proclaimed «liberators» ultranationalist far-right militias composed of zealots that want to join the conflict in the hope of Poll winning and taking back South Africa as a «Neo British-Empire» putting Apartheid back (or some crazy shit like that) no matter how farfetched it seems to outsiders, resulting in a modern «people's crusade» with the level of failure of the ancient one. Having no idea what they're really doing, it results in boats and planes sinking and crashing on the west coast of Africa, getting taken as hostages by hostile groups of lawless areas (or putting themselves in trouble by their attitude towards the locals), or lost in the jungle or desert. I think I quite capture the sort of mentality these sorts of people have. Basically a hilarious failure (well maybe not that funny but you get what I mean), so many conflicts have dumb stories like these.
As for the articles that are affected, well, all of the countries in the British Isles basically. Not to forget that people in mainland Europe will be worried for a conflict of such scale happening right next to them, would they do embargos on trade with Poll on the other side of the English Channel for his agressive chauvinistic attitude? Would countries of the mainland take a side like that Mafia totalitarian Sicilian Republic or North germany or Prussia or Wallonia? That might end up affecting some of them too, as their article. The population's feelings in the Celtic Union could be an interesting point of view as well, would some rich people even finance sides? How would the political sphere react to this? Anything is possible depending of how it turns out. It promises to be an interesting project for sure.
SigmaHero045 (talk) 22:40, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
- OK, nice. I basically agree with all those suggestions. That earlier giddiness over "monarchism vs republicanism" or "Poll vs Windsor" never quite rang true, but this does, I think. A struggle over what it means to be "British" or "English", in a time when that definition has diverged a lot in different directions. I'll archive the talk section, leaving a note with links to the two new pages. Exciting times! Benkarnell (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
No, I'd like to continue developing those. I'd rather keep them.10:13, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
What are you talking about? SigmaHero045 (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
dont worry i asked false dmitri for membership
I demand proof SigmaHero045 (talk) 20:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Hey, sorry. Revert my changes. I hadn't even looked at the edit history to see your changes, I assumed that the template had just sort of organically grown into what it was.
I do find it quite unreadable with the huge number of flags. Especially all the "empty" flags for those states that don't have them. It's incredibly cluttered. The flags made sense when the template was small, but now it fills up an entire screen and it's difficult to make sense of it. So I'd still argue for removing those. But I'm really sorry for messing up the other work you put into it.
British Isles in DD
Hello there! I've been told by Ben you are the one to talk to about the state of various kingdoms in England and the like. I just wanted to ask if you would be willing to work on a overhaul of the region.
The basic premise will be as follows:
England suffers as it does, but due to the lack of hits on Scotland, Scotland as a state manages to remain afloat and alive. The hit in Glasgow spared most of the city and its population, and the hit in Edinburgh will do too (what has currently been written is very implausible). With the fact that the Glencorse Barracks is not hit, and the govt (council and the like) of the region survives, Scotland will manage to knit itself back together into some form of semblance by 1984 itself. With the major cities of the north of Scotland all up and kicking, and Aberdeen and the offshore oil all still there, Aberdeen will soon manage to supply the Scottish state with fuel allowing for emergency trains, planes, ambulances, buses and cars to function in helping the people out.
It's existence will also mean that the rest of Britain will learn of the existence of each other in the 80s itself, although Scotland will not be able to help as it will be swamped by refugees from the south and trying to house the displaced populations of Edinburgh and Glasgow which will mean that although Scotland would try to help the rest of the nation it will be hamstrung to do so.
The monarchy also needs to be discussed. There seems to be absolutely no information on Charles or Anne, but apparently Anne does survive and her daughter is crowned Zara I (??). So, what we have is that Anne was apparently in the region of what is Cleveland. Here is where the first major change will arrive. When the people abandon the mines by early '84, radio contact from Scotland will begun to be made where it will be found out that Princess Anne has survived and is there with her daughter Zara. The military will launch a small scale humanitarian mission to try to aid the people present while they direct Anne and Zara to their helicopter and take off toward Scotland where they will be given the best of care. Cleveland's history will be changed to reflect this and the impact it will have.
However, Scotland will not be able to send out major parties time and time again but will work on establishing radio contact with the remaining regions to try to co-ordinate them. This means we will have to rewrite a lot of articles stating that they were in communication with Scotland and this allowed them to know of each others' presence. We will have news of Queen Elizabeth passing away reach Scotland along with news that Prince Andrew after he was crowned ran away to South Africa. This will lead the interim Scottish government to decide that Anne would be best suited for the role of monarch and would be offered the crown - which she, after heading of the actions of her irresponsible brother, would accepting - making her Queen Anne the Second of Great Britain and Northern Ireland de jure and Queen of Scotland de facto, with her official residence now being Holyrood Palace.
Meanwhile Scotland tries to right itself and reorganise both the state and its armed forces into something that actually resembles an army. While it does so, it begins to move into border regions with former England - taking the small city of Carlisle and the region of Cumbria under its wing while also amusingly taking control of Berwick-upon-Tweed (Scottish at last again). This may very well butterfly away the whole of the Kingdom of Northumbria, which doesn't have much information about it anyway and leave the whole region to Scotland or at least Northumbria becomes a vassal of Scotland. The fact that no one thought to make Carlisle as the capital of Northumbria (which has a population of 75k) and instead chose Alnwick (which has maybe 8k?) just shows the mess the region is. The taking of Carlisle will probably happen by '90 as Scotland will be responsible for supplying the people with food and the like.
A side effect of Scotland existing is that the rest of England will be aware of Queen Anne and the betrayal of Prince Andrew. Although Scotland will not be able to stop nations coalescing in former England, all these nations will happily appoint Queen Anne as the head of their states. Nations such as Westmoreland will be made obsolete because honestly they cannot exist when Scotland is right there to provide for them and take care of them, as they are a part of the region of Cumbria as previously mentioned will become a part of Scotland (officially return to the Union, but, ya know Scotland is the union).
At this point Scotland will also be launching efforts to help out the people of Wales, and will be aware of the chaos of Northern Ireland.
So let's talk Ireland. Even if Belfast is hit with a nuke (which makes no sense, considering Dublin does not), Ireland will not be able to just walk into Northern Ireland. Let me know about what you think on the nuke issue.
But ignoring that for now, the world going all doomsday will mean so does Northern Ireland. I think it is very fair to say that the army would lose control and the UVF would grow in strength and number as they begin to ethnically cleanse the region by either forcing Catholics to convert or pushing them south into Ireland. Ireland, which will have its own problems, will be caught off guard and we can expect the Provisional IRA to try to mount a response but being brutally wiped out by the UVF in a period known as the Orange Terror. Perhaps we have regions where the British Army tries to control the situation, but it is very likely that they would all withdraw in '84 when Scotland comes as they would be needed in Scotland which would leave the UVF running the show. I'm not sure if Ireland would invade but it would make sense if the UVF pushes on the borders and forces the refugees deeper into Ireland.
Eventually, Ireland and Scotland will build a decent trading relationship by the '90s and begin to talk on the Ulster question which would be going haywire. They will decide to leave the issue of Ulster alone for now while beginning to form links between themselves and beginning talks on what would become the Celtic Alliance. I envision the Celtic Alliance to actually be basically like the EU instead of what it is now. So they would have a common currency and a Celtic Parliament but remain individual nations.
The Ulster question will need to be figured out admittedly. They might be invaded by Scotland. Or they might declare their undying loyalty to Queen Anne but declare a parliament of their own.
From the late 90s onward most of what has been written would serve fairly well, but with greater growth of the nations and the like present.
Then, perhaps in 2007, talks begin between the nations of Britain on rejoining the union but as individual nations instead of coming back as "England". But as you can see my focus is mainly on the early start of the story.
Well surely I'd be interested (just give me until the end of the month so I can finish college and be fully free to be here). Holy cow, that's a total revamp of everything. If such a thing is done, could we have an archive of the old UK and Celtic Alliance situation, cauz' a lot of efforts done by so many people would be scrapped by such a reboot, such lore absolutely defining an era of this timeline surely deserves some preservation and recognition, right?
There's a lot to digest here so let me go point by point. First, while the idea of a scottish-led UK (rather than an england-led UK) is interesting and would be realistic given the pre-determined conditions that you say, there are things that bug me. Like, why does Edinburgh and Glasgow avoid destruction but not Belfast or other cities in England? I don't get the logic at play here. How is it implausible? Quebec city got hit so why not the capital of Scotland? Edinburgh has 444,000 people in 1985, that's an important demographic center (as well as being a geographically strategic location). The choices of targets aren't just for economic but also for symbolic reasons, to prevent a recovery from the enemy (there's a reason why in WW2, historical targets were bombed with precious bombs in Germany, I don't believe that mentality has gone away in 1983). Every single state of the US, every province of Canada, every region of France were bombed despite not necessarily having major economic importance, so why not every nation of the UK? You said it yourself, there's Barracks in there, a military target, the no 1 destination of any nuclear conflict.
Secondly, the monarchy question. Yeah, Zara is a weird name, it's the same name as an ethiopian emperor, lol. But what about King Philip (rip btw)? I've not seen what happened to him in your text? Heck, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, what happen to her? What about the popular Diana? Philip alone is a better candidate than anyone else for the crown here. There's a lot of unanswered questions here. If you answer me "well, they're dead", well WHY are they dead but not others? Also why do people abandon the mines, do they run out of coal or whatever else is in there? I'll come back later for Andrew. Anna is fine if her location is not proved to be somewhere fatal.
Thirdly, Ireland. You wonder why Dublin wasn't hit? The same reason Stockholm wasn't hit, the same reason Bern and Zurich weren't hit, the same reason San Marino or New Delhi weren't hit : they're not part of NATO and are part of neutral nations that poses no threat to the USSR (and thus it would be a waste of nukes that all need to strike where it can hurt the most openly hostile countries to the USSR). Now you might say that Vienna was hit when Austria was a neutral nation. Yeah, but it was clearly explained how it was done as a strategic strike to prevent NATO troops to geographically pass through Austria, how it's an exception rather than the norm (the same way the United States didn't hit at neutral countries, good way to get buddies is to say you won't bomb them if something like DD happen). As for Belfast, may I remind you of the Ulster Defence Force, you know, just the largest infantry regiment in the British Army, is stationed there (technically it's Lisburn 6 km southwest but you get what I'm saying)? As for the violences, I don't agree. Belfast, an unionist center, is no more. There's radiation, fallout and never-thought possible horror around, in a survival mode whom are you going to want the help of (and please to get the help of)? A dead country or an intact country next-door with food and stability that can give them to you? Not to forget THE main support for the unionists is no more : the UK itself. The Ulster Defence Force, the Ulster Voluntary Force, Red Hand Commando all just lost their headquarters in Ulster and probably their heads with it (evacuating safely a city where everyone wants each other dead is just not possible). Not to forget a majority of republicanism, located in the countryside or in a untouched Dublin, live in the geographic majority of the land outside Belfast. Already support for reunification of Ireland (at least partially, perhaps the north of the north is too hostile to want support in time of freaking nuclear apocalypse) there I might say, the conditions are good. They no more have ammos or guns backup, what are the unionists supposed to do?
Fourthly, the Celtic Alliance. I don't get why Scotland would want to give help first to faraway Wales instead of Northern Ireland right next door. The Celtic Alliance as a state makes sense only in a world where Ireland is the sole major state surviving intact with remnants of other parts of the world. So I guess when you have two, the possibility for federationization is limiting itself.
Finally, let's talk about Andrew. The whole thing you propose just highlighted to me how it makes no sense Andrew goes some freaking 10,000 km away in a random part of South Africa when he could just have been going to Newfoundland with actual loyal subjects, stability and, perhaps an important factor, the fact that the UK prime minister Margret Thatcher is very much alive there (being on a diplomatic trip to Canada when DD happened, having been brought to the Diefenbunker safely and moved safely with the rest of government in St-Johns). Just 3,500 km away at that. New Britain makes no sense to exist if there's a King Philipp or a Queen Anna in the old country, no people would want to continue moving there and sustain it. And if you remove New Britain, the whole South Africa area and a lot of international politics would have to be completely reworked. Not to forget Canada (because the Celtic Alliance participated in the Saguenay War remember). Are you sure you really want to reboot Great Britain? I think you guys underestimate the sheer colossal amount of changes in the timeline that would need to be done.
That's what I'm thinking, perhaps I'm a bit too severe but that's necessary in order to keep the realism of the timeline, unique in this entire fandom. Thank you A LOT for sharing these ideas, some of them are good and I like the idea of being part of such a team (perhaps the people who worked on the original articles in DD Britain 1.0 would need to approve too). SigmaHero045 (talk) 23:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Absolutely lovely to hear from you Sigma!
To your first point, for sure. I'm going to make sure to mark everything not going to be used as obsolete so that the information is not lost and is hopefully preserved. I was also intending of keeping most of what had been written in some form so editing the pages rather than creating new ones but if you feel we should leave the stuff as is and marked obsolete then that is absolutely no problem with me. I would also like to incorporate as many elements from your current proposals as I can, more on that later.
So, Edinburgh and Glasgow were defo on the cards - both Soviet planning and British planning. Canon has them hit with 200kt nukes which I'll keep and affect the cities differently. Essentially a lot of my thoughts are in my sandbox, where I actually have managed to address some independent concerns about Ulster as well. Long story short, both are hit and suffer 100k casualties each. I'll likely keep the current number of bases hit intact too, but it has to be said that Soviet planners had not made plans to target the places I have mentioned because there were not seen as important in planning (no idea why).
From what I have gathered for the Royals, if their location could not be obtained then they are viewed as dead - presumably why the Queen Mother, Diana and Edward are not mentioned, while Charles is very dead. This is because most of the immediate Royal Family was assumed to be within London at the time and could not escape. Ben may know more about the topic. I think Philip dies with Elizabeth in current canon as well. And may the DoE rest in peace.
Anne was found to be in what becomes Cleveland when DD occurs, so that is where she is found. The current plan is when Zara is crowned, she will take the regnal name of Anne III, as her mother will be viewed as a very popular queen. And talking about Andrew, dude I know. Honestly us on the DD channel of discord have time and time again talked about it and come to the conclusion it is too great a part to remove from the timeline completely. Our current solution is for him to leave in late '84 or early '85 so that the Republic of Sussex still comes about. The eventual state he establishes is also much smaller. Thankfully I control almost all of former South Africa as well as Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Botswana. Zimbabwe I have added a lot of information to, and the original idea was created by Oer and I. Botswana is currently mine to run with Vegas not here anymore currently. In talks on the discord channel we have come to the consensus a lot of the region feels worryingly neo-colonial and thus will be edited significantly over time.
Ireland not getting hit does make sense, lol, I think I was just annoyed by the CA when I wrote that. I have read articles that it may have been a potential target but at the end it makes sense it was not hit. Belfast was actually hit, and I have taken that into account with another 200kt nuke which basically wipes out the protestant half of Belfast. However, only 750 UDR troops of the 7th/10th battalion were present, which leaves over 5.5k UDR soldiers alive and kicking. On top of this the casualties in Belfast are around 90k with at least 85% of them being protestant. As for the violence, in '83 Ulster was composed of 795k prots and 435k catholics. Taking away 90k still leaves a large prot majority, with most of the UDR still alive and kicking. I have to say that you are underestimating the desire of the prots to remain part of the UK - which remains strong to this day. Even if the UK goes up in smoke, the prots are not going to give in, and here contact with Scotland is established fairly quickly and in a straightforward manner. There also remains 10k British Army soldiers untouched by the nukes, who admittedly will not be sticking around for long - but their equipment will be picked up by both the UDR/UDA and the IRA. Plus, there is also the fact that most of the resupplying of these small groups were in small scale home factories across the east which will likely still continue here. The initial bonanza of British equipment and ammo will allow the UDR/UDA to set up some sort of frontline and expulsion zones from where they will be able to restart their factories.
No denying the majority of the IRA support will be in the countryside or Ireland, but Ireland will be busy having to deal with the refugees which have just been ethnically cleansed from West Belfast along with scrambling to put to rights their own house in the meantime. The unionists will have a solid core of British Army trained troops and the incentive and numbers to gain an early advantage. However, the end result will still see Ulster shrinking.
So, I now envision the CA as being an EU like organisation with the addition of the EDF. As I am committed to preserving as much of canon as possible, I'll still be working to have states like Cleveland still exist and the like. This would mean that a lot of the stuff say in Canada where the CA gets involved remains legitimate and sees no need for change. So the common currency that member states share will remain the Celtic Pound, and there will still be a Celtic parliament, but member nations will also have their own govt - making the Celtic Alliance a true alliance instead of a Greater Ireland, which still has a unified military structure. The reasoning behind the naming of this alliance would be to assure Irish fear about another potential British ploy to take control of Ireland again. Not only would this be a great avenue to explore, it would also make sense.
Talking about the UK now. So the current layout we seem to have (in very broad strokes) is that the nations directly bordering and close to Scotland all rejoin the UK in full, with Cleveland being last to do so in like 91-93, and Northumbria first. All of the isles acknowledges Anne as Queen, apart from Sussex (which I envision will be part of the CA but NOT the UK), which makes a lot of the English states in personal union but still independent. We had Wales also rejoin the UK, but due to the parts which survived would be much more bilingual as a result (with Welsh as a first language at home being in a slight majority, but everyone speaks English anyway) and the Celtic Parliament in Aberystwyth. Now here is where it gets interesting. We planned on only Lancaster (with a surviving south Liverpool) joining the UK in full in 2017 after Cleveland some 15 years before. We also planned on an English Nationalist Party arising in Cleveland. I have this idea that the ENP potentially comes to power in '17/'18, with the guy who would be proposed as the Emperor of England in the proposals becoming the first minister of Cleveland, and would begin to pursue a policy of trying to potentially both leave the full union and also try to integrate the states to the south such as Anglia and to essentially recreate the nation of England. I don't think Cleveland would be going toward a republic as Anne would personally remain very popular so by extension her daughter does too, but it might very well look to lead the new England. We could have him announcing his victory in the election in the sports hall as in current proposals, making his victory be dubbed in the media as the "sports hall coronation". I think it would be a very interesting parallel to explore, and would love your thoughts on it.
As for the amount of work, sigh, well aware it is going to be a mammoth task - which was why I was planning on keeping almost all the current states we had up to 2010 hahaha. If I am being honest, South Africa is going to be a whole other conversation. Let me know your thoughts on the subject, and look forward to hopefully working with you at the end of the month! Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 01:48, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Ok, I'm ready! Where do we start? SigmaHero045 (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Allo allo. So, the first place I would ask you to join would be the discord as we have a dedicated DD channel over there. Currently me and FP are the ones planning the huge CA overhaul so if you would be keen we could either create a private channel for ourselves or just talk on the DD channel on discord. Our ideas in regard to the isles have also developed further so this may be the best bet.
- I also have a lot on my sandbox, on which I'll upload the final borders following the Ulster Civil War so you can have a clearer look on the things there. Good to have you onboard! Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
It is a good idea over all and I appreciate the work you put in to it.
The use of large nukes (bigger than Hiroshima and Nagasaki) must be restrained to avoid undue overkill, strategic failure, a wast of Soviet warheads and to leave something noteworthy in the UK we can write about. A 10-15 kilo-tonne nuke would hit both Lieth, Glasgow (Kaverner, etc.), Belfast (Harland & Woof, etc.), Rosyth, Clydebank, Aberdeen (?), Barrow-in-Furness (VSEL, etc.) and Geenock docks (as well as several major English and Welsh docks) as a tactical blow on the navy and civilian transport links. Many other ports would survive like Inverness, Tayport, Oban, Kyle of Localsh, Ayr, Aberdeen (?), Dundee, Wick, Ballycastle, Larne, Portrush, Warrenpoint, Whitehaven and Eyemouth (as would many in England and Wales).HMS Zsófia, Krisztina, Dóra, Tijana, Nóra, Dorina! (talk) 21:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)